The biggest Criticism I have heard about Universalism is that it makes Gods justice out to be just a little timeout, and murderers get away scot free. Last I checked, they still have to go through correction. But some people think a temporary correction is unfair.
They take parts of the bible, and try to embellish the idea of some eternal punishment. Then, they go about and twist all other scriptures speaking of the restitutions of all things.
Scholars have all agreed that Aion means temporary, yet they still believe that in this special case, aion meant eternity.
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 18, 2010, 04:20:12 PM
The biggest Criticism I have heard about Universalism is that it makes Gods justice out to be just a little timeout, and murderers get away scot free.
This makes me think of a short Christian movie on the topic.
There was a young couple and a criminal that molested the young woman.
A while later the boy was still angry at the criminal. The young woman has forgiven the criminal. The night before his execution the criminal repented. At the moment the criminal was executed couple died in a car accient.
They all ended in a waiting room before judgement. Anyway only teh young boy went to hell because he didn't forgive.
The woman did forgive and went straight to heaven. The didn't forgive and went to hell. And yes the criminal went instantly to heaven. So the criminal didn't even get 'a little timeout'.
That's even more weird than the UR time out.
Matthew 20:1–16
The reason most Christians object to the idea of Universalism is because they misunderstand the difference between Unitarian Universalism and Christian Universalism.
In fairness to the "average" Christian, I do not believe they "Love" eternal hell, I believe that they understand that whatever God chooses as our fate, then it must be righteous if indeed God is righteous.
Before we end up being too hard on people who believe in eternal hell, I do not see much difference in the attitude the absolute no free will people have when it comes to murder or child rape. God desires it to happen, since it did, is their outlook on it. Since God is righteous, then he had a righteous reason for desiring it to happen. There is just as much sickness in that point of view as the opposite and both have their arguments to justify their beliefs.
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on February 18, 2010, 04:20:12 PM
The biggest Criticism I have heard about Universalism is that it makes Gods justice out to be just a little timeout, and murderers get away scot free. Last I checked, they still have to go through correction. But some people think a temporary correction is unfair.
They take parts of the bible, and try to embellish the idea of some eternal punishment. Then, they go about and twist all other scriptures speaking of the restitutions of all things.
Scholars have all agreed that Aion means temporary, yet they still believe that in this special case, aion meant eternity.
They simply fail to see God's plan for all humanity!
CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:
it is an experience of evil Elohim (God) has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Paul
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
Before we end up being too hard on people who believe in eternal hell, I do not see much difference in the attitude the absolute no free will people have when it comes to murder or child rape. God desires it to happen, since it did, is their outlook on it. Since God is righteous, then he had a righteous reason for desiring it to happen. There is just as much sickness in that point of view as the opposite and both have their arguments to justify their beliefs.
Paul,
I have to defend the "no free will belief" as being as bad as eternal torment. How can you even compare the two? What happens in this life is short and God knows the outcome of all things. He knows that whatever happens is a lesson and is only for a very short while. Think about Eternal torment for a second, there is no lessons to be learned from it because there is no end or no way out. Of course I know there is no such thing as ET, so I guess it is all irrelevant.
When you think about evil and all the things that happen in the world, there is a lesson for someone to learn something from it all. We all learn from our experiences and everyone elses experiences in life no matter what they may be.
CHB
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 18, 2010, 06:02:14 PM
The reason most Christians object to the idea of Universalism is because they misunderstand the difference between Unitarian Universalism and Christian Universalism.
In fairness to the "average" Christian, I do not believe they "Love" eternal hell, I believe that they understand that whatever God chooses as our fate, then it must be righteous if indeed God is righteous.
Before we end up being too hard on people who believe in eternal hell, I do not see much difference in the attitude the absolute no free will people have when it comes to murder or child rape. God desires it to happen, since it did, is their outlook on it. Since God is righteous, then he had a righteous reason for desiring it to happen. There is just as much sickness in that point of view as the opposite and both have their arguments to justify their beliefs.
Thank God he has freed me from the bondage of hell, I suffered severely when I believed in that.
Every time a family member or friend died I cryed wondering if they were forever lost in hell.
I now am battling freewill, I tossed and turned till after 3 am, wondering why so much evil in the world.
I know God is in control but having a really rough time believing in no freewil I am so back and forth.
God don't predestine all the evil does he?
I read and seems so, but having a hard time accepting this.
Father puts up with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath
fitted for destruction...in order..to make known...the riches of
His mercy unto the vessels of mercy .
If your spiritual eyes are not opened..you judge by
earthly 'appearances'...and will err.
There is a time when the spirit's of 'just" men will be perfect..
and they will not judge by mere appearance.
There are many hidden things to be revealed...and a just
judgement can not be made without their revealing.....that
is why Jesus Christ admonished to judge nothing before the
appointed time. Judge not and you shall not be judged.
With the same judgement that you judge,you shall be judged.
1John 3;19 This then is how we know that we belong to the
truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence
WHENEVER OUR HEARTS CONDEMN US....
FOR GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS,
AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING
Thank you Sheila, you made some good points, that I need to study.
Quote from: SQ on February 18, 2010, 08:00:38 PM
I know God is in control but having a really rough time believing in no freewil I am so back and forth.
Since I opened the can of worms in this thread I will take responsibility if the Mods do not wish it to be discussed as it often leads to arguments rather than discussion.
The aspect of Free Will or Freewill, however one approaches it has to so with the context of the word free.
For instance, you may not be considered free if you are in prison, but you would be free to make the best out of that imprisonment, that is the aspect of free will in scripture.
God is not tricked or surprised by anything we do, however an eternal being can also give us a freedom of will and have planned for everything we do and maintain his sovereignty.
It is also scriptural.
Pr 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.
1Ki 12:33 And he offers up on the altar that he made in Beth-El, on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, in the month that he devised of his own heart, and he makes a festival to the sons of Israel, and offers on the altar--to make perfume.
God in no way devised a mans way and that is also scriptural.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on February 18, 2010, 06:02:14 PM
The reason most Christians object to the idea of Universalism is because they misunderstand the difference between Unitarian Universalism and Christian Universalism.
In fairness to the "average" Christian, I do not believe they "Love" eternal hell, I believe that they understand that whatever God chooses as our fate, then it must be righteous if indeed God is righteous.
Before we end up being too hard on people who believe in eternal hell, I do not see much difference in the attitude the absolute no free will people have when it comes to murder or child rape. God desires it to happen, since it did, is their outlook on it. Since God is righteous, then he had a righteous reason for desiring it to happen. There is just as much sickness in that point of view as the opposite and both have their arguments to justify their beliefs.
well, most christians, but some medieval Christians and southerners I have found love that idea.
Thank you Paul for good explaination, I apologise for bringing this up.
I had the answer within myself, it appears I been wrestling with God. :thumbdown:BUMMER!
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
God in no way devised a mans way and that is also scriptural.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
Hi Paul,
Notice the words: "I did not command them". No, God did not give a law ordering them to sacrifice their children but he provided them with their understanding, the influences, and all the things that would cause them do this.
It is just like the scripture that says "God tempts no man but man is drawn away by his own lust". This is true, God tempts no man but he provides all the things that do tempt us. He brings about the circumstances that causes all things to happen. He doesn't tempt man directly but indirectly, so to speak.
Say, I come to your house and puncture your tire and you went down the road and wrecked. I didn't cause you to wreck, I just punctured your tire. You wrecked because you couldn't control your vehicle and you didn't pay attention to the tire going flat before you took off. Now, whose fault is this wreck, yours or mine? This might not be the best story to show what I am talking about but hope you get the picture.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 19, 2010, 12:51:19 AM
Notice the words: "I did not command them". No, God did not give a law ordering them to sacrifice their children but he provided them with their understanding, the influences, and all the things that would cause them do this.
I did notice the words, I also notice the rest of the verse and other verses that make the scriptures talk about our part. The idea of the absolute inability to make a decision out of our own will is a contradiction to scripture, the idea of our full ability to control anything we wish to control is also a contradiction to scripture so it is scripture that defines the nature of our wills not the debate over the word free.
QuoteI just punctured your tire. You wrecked because you couldn't control your vehicle and you didn't pay attention to the tire going flat before you took off. Now, whose fault is this wreck, yours or mine? This might not be the best story to show what I am talking about but hope you get the picture.
Irrelevant, either God desires a child to get raped or he doesn't. Which is it? The answer then should deliver us into the direction of the truth of Gods character, or the lack of it in the image some have of God.
Hi Paul,
I see life and all things kind of like dominoes. God set up things and pushed the first domino and the rest just fall according to the first push. He doesn't have to keep making the next one fall, it falls because of the one being pushed from the beginning.
God is the one who created the tree of good and evil, we had nothing to do with it, remember, we were but clay.
Back to the original question. I don't think people love the doctrine of hell, they just believe what they have been taught and what God has allowd them to see. They honestly believe this is the way it is.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 19, 2010, 06:19:08 PM
God is the one who created the tree of good and evil, we had nothing to do with it, remember, we were but clay.
The nature of that creation is also something that can be discussed. Did God have the ability to perfect us without the creation of evil or is it a part of the laws of existance, if there are any such laws? The problem here is that the same argument that would justify Gods righteousness in allowing a child to be raped, or to cause a child to be raped and the righteousness of eternal hell is the same. Our objections to eternal hell is moot under this kind of reasoning if God has pushed the domino that ends up causing that to be anyones fate
QuoteBack to the original question. I don't think people love the doctrine of hell, they just believe what they have been taught and what God has allowd them to see. They honestly believe this is the way it is.
That may be true, the point being though, shouldn't we learn to love something if that is Gods design? If eternal hell is Gods design what would prevent us from seeing the Glory in it? If God causes the child rape by any means, why are we not to love it from that perspective?
I realize I'm a little late into the conversation but I have this to share as my opinion:
QuoteThe biggest Criticism I have heard about Universalism is that it makes Gods justice out to be just a little timeout, and murderers get away scot free. Last I checked, they still have to go through correction. But some people think a temporary correction is unfair.
Temporary correction or not, it's still going through a correction. It's not up to us to decide what kind of correction other people have to bear (thank God) because if it was there's going to be a lot of people going through some pretty nasty correction, most likely unfair correction at that.
Sin is sin. God doesn't differenciate between sins. If you sin a little or sin a lot you'll still get whatever correction He deems neccessary to bring you to Him, be it before or after physical death.
QuoteScholars have all agreed that Aion means temporary, yet they still believe that in this special case, aion meant eternity.
How can one word have two meanings in the same context? It's like how people use the verse 'As in Adam ALL died, So in Christ ALL will be made alive'. How can people take the word 'ALL' and make it mean 2 different things in the same verse?? It's contradictory. In this case it either means ALL as in EVERYONE EVER on this planet in both cases, or it means that NOT everyone fell under the curse of Adam, and then NOT everyone will fall under the grace of God.
:2c:
To the OP:
Satan thrives on deception and anything that separates us from the Spirit and Truth.
Quote from: Syndicated on February 20, 2010, 10:07:36 PM
How can one word have two meanings in the same context?
Aionios is one of the words that both sides want to leverage in their favor however, context is not the only issue, it is also how the word is used.
An abstract use of aionios is indeed the perception of the end never coming. So in that light you can have a word that in an absolute sense means limited duration, in an abstract sense there is no perception of how long that will be.
This eliminates the argument over the word primarily and creates the possibility that ANY translation will contain the message of the resitution of all things rather than having to determine what translation a person deems most accurate.
Me and a friend were talking about Hitler the other day, and how long he should suffer.
My friend said "Forever" and went into all the horrible things that Hitler did on this Earth...Which at the end of hearing I was also on the brink of saying "Yeh forever in hell sounds pretty damn lenient for him!"
But think of how long 'forever' is...
1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 multiplied by 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years into 'forever' and your only just starting!
Now, if Hitler were made to suffer 10 years or 100 years or 1000 years for 'each' of his victims...I could see that as being punishment enough...Or punished DOUBLE for his sin or SEVEN TIMES over (the bible talks about such punishments)....Again, I feel THAT would be enough.
....Finite sins, however bad NEVER warrant ETERNAL punishment, if we really think about it.
...Punished enough so that JUSTICE is done, yes...so that reformation and healing can take place...Yes....Until the rough is made smooth and all mankind see the salvation of God...Yes.
Hi fom,
I was thinking, if there was a punishment for any sin wouldn't we all deserve the same punishment since all have sinned? It says that one sin is no greater than another one? I believe the only punishment we receive is death and the consequences we suffer for our mistakes in this life. I don't believe there is any punishment beyond out death.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 21, 2010, 09:46:37 PM
Hi fom,
I was thinking, if there was a punishment for any sin wouldn't we all deserve the same punishment since all have sinned? It says that one sin is no greater than another one? I believe the only punishment we receive is death and the consequences we suffer for our mistakes in this life. I don't believe there is any punishment beyond out death.
CHB
I don't think it would be fair to give someone who stole a packet of crisps the same punishment as say someone who went mental with a pickaxe one night and hacked a thousand people to death no.
You say that the the punishment is the consequences...But do you think men like Hitler actually had much of a conscience...In other words, do you think they would ever feel guilty for what they had done?
If you murdered thousands of people for example, would you be able to live with yourself? - Or would you carry on murdering people (as Hitler did)...Even thinking up new and crueler ways to torcher them?
I really have no idea how God will judge the world. But apparently He does it in 'fairness'...So I do wonder what the 'fair' penalty is for being so damn cruel you would wipe out millions of lives including children and not only that...Allow their torcher, rape and God knows what else.
How does one punish such evil?
I just don't know.
But somehow a slap on the wrist just doesn't seem 'just' for such injustices of thousands upon thousands of people watching their beloved be torchered and raped before them while they themselves are 'operated' and experimented on....Eyes poked out, nails pulled off, limbs hacked off, etc etc.....The misery people like that caused (and still cause) is actually unthinkable.
So giving men like Hitler and say 'Mother Teresa' the same punishment, seems like injustice and not justice to me and I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says that all sin is treated the same...In fact I see the opposite.
"Beaten with many stripes/fewer stripes".
"More tolerable for Sodom on that day..."
"Reap what we sow".
"Punished double".
"Many/fewer blows".
"Forgive and be forgiven".
"Merciful shown mercy".
"Punished 7 times over"... Etc etc.
Infinite possibilities, one outcome.
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on February 22, 2010, 12:00:28 AM
Infinite possibilities, one outcome.
peacemaker
Lol, very well said. :HeartThrob:
QuoteHi fom,
I was thinking, if there was a punishment for any sin wouldn't we all deserve the same punishment since all have sinned? It says that one sin is no greater than another one? I believe the only punishment we receive is death and the consequences we suffer for our mistakes in this life. I don't believe there is any punishment beyond out death.
CHB
death isn't a punishment though. Death is a result of sin not a punishment for it. God didn't punish us for sinning, but because of sin we incurred death.
God has been dealing with death, trying to save us from death not because it's our punishment but because it's a sickness.
If you left rotting meat out and people ate it they will get sick. The sickness isn't their punishment it's the result of the rotting meat. Just as with Adam and Eve, they believed the rotting lies of the serpent and the result was sin and through sin came death.
We aren't recieving any punishment, but instead we are recieving blessing out of sickness. For through our sickness we gain Christ, so then is our sickness bad, no, for it can't be bad if it resulted in Christ. So I say it's niether punishment or even bad our deathly condition and that's why God forgave us our sins, and not just our but the sins of the whole world.
As a father, when my daughter becomes sick I don't punisher her, I draw her closer.
Peace.
Hi Dallas,
What you say makes sense but what about the verse that says, "the wages of sin is death"?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on February 22, 2010, 05:46:18 PM
Hi Dallas,
What you say makes sense but what about the verse that says, "the wages of sin is death"?
CHB
I believe that means a result of sin
SIN is another one of those words that has become so generalized that even having a discussion on sin is difficult.
For instance, just from the old testament alone
These two words are both translated sin, but look how they are also used.
Quote
H2398 chata' khaw-taw'
a primitive root;
properly, to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference, to
forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn:--bear the
blame, cleanse, commit (sin), by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss,
(make) offend(-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation,
(cause, make) sin(-ful, -ness), trespass.
Gn 42:22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required.
Quote
H2403 chatta'ah khat-taw-aw'
or chattacth {khat-tawth'};
from H2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty,
occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender:--punishment
(of sin), purifying(-fication for sin), sin(-ner, offering).
Gn 31:36 . And Jacob was wroth, and chode with Laban: and Jacob answered and said to Laban, What [is] my trespass? what [is] my sin, that thou hast so hotly pursued after me?
Here we have a distinction between trespass and Sin, yet primarily most talk of Sin would say a trespass is a sin.
If sin is sin and it all generalizes as we often hear then there would be no distinctions to actions as in this example.
Lk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
QuoteHi Dallas,
What you say makes sense but what about the verse that says, "the wages of sin is death"?
CHB
This scripture is a great supporter of the understanding that sin was an effect and not a punishment. First, do you think that Adam and EVE were desiring to earn sin, that was the reason that they did what they did....absolutly not. No it's refering to the result or what they did.
When my daughter jumps onto the couch she breaks it...was that her desire no, but the wages of her childness was my broken couch.
The idea is that you will recieve death as a result of sin, no negotiating. Like in the garden, God didn't say, "If you eat from this tree I will kill you," no instead He said, "If you eat of it you will die." It was a saftey warning. No different than if I were to say to my daughter, don't touch the stove or you will get burned. Now obviously I am not saying, if you touch the stove I will burn you, no, that is the results.
And just like God, when my child gets hurt I pick her up and love her and kiss her, to console her and bandage and heal...even in her disobedience!!! Just as we get hurt as a result of not listening to our Father in heaven, He still cherishes us to that extent!
Peace.