When you study the meaning of God being All in All, one could come away with several points of view. One view being that God does everything for us. He lives our lives, he thinks for us, he directs every event in our lives, he covers all of our needs. That view brings with it a new meaning of " Dependance on God", which also has redefined the meaning of " Overcomming", and many are just taking on very surprising interpitations from this subject. And those interpitations are actively taking effect on how believers are viewing, and doing things.
One thing I wanted to look at, as related to God being All in All, is how certain points of view are taking away from Gods investments in humanity. It begs to examine the question itself, " Does God make investments in Humanity?" And If he does,does he expect returns on those investments? Are there situations that God expects the human " To Do Something", or is he a God who will do it all himself? And then if and when we may find a human " Doing Something" for God, why are so many concerned that it may be interpited as the human " Trying to deserve or pay for their Salvation?" Why is doing something for God , now such a " Sensitive Subject", that can be viewed in so many differing manners.
And I think that biblical subjects as this, are being used by forces that be, to confuse and misdirect believers, and throw them off track. Actually using the bible, to confuse the things of God, and use the bible to bounce a belief on and off the head of a believer, and disorient them, without them being aware of it.
In Luke 12:47-48, again Jesus teaching about the concept of " Getting yourself ready for the Masters return." One thing about the concept of God being All in All, if it is viewed from the point of view that God has not made an investment in the human, but is instead doing everything for the human, then the human really has no need of " Getting themselves ready", they are just clay in the Masters hand, and only have to just be there for him to do all the Work. This view is attractive to those who favor a more " Lazy approach" to God, they see God as the enthusiastic energetic one, and themselves as the beneficary. And I'll get more into the widespread view of things that this offers a little later.
But Jesus taught something of intrest in vs.48; He said from everyone who has been given much, that much shall be required from them. This is clearly Investment theology, or I do something for you, then I expect you to do things in return for me. If I give you something, then I expect you to do something with it. If I impart wisdom into you, then I expect wise things to be done. If I give you Love, then I expect someone you know to be Loved by you. If I give you strength, then I expect it to be used. If I give you teaching ability, then I expect some that you come in contact with to be taught something.
If I give your life certain things, then I expect your life to result in certain things. And those results should first reflect within you, show results within you. Those results, in my view, should define what Overcomming is, and should show a pattern of Gods Investment in a human. And I want to go into that.
Peace.
I would think that for Jesus to say that to whom much is given that much will be required, means that God will be " Expecting Results." Does that make sense to you? Jesus further adds that to whom they entrusted much into, of them they will ask all the " More." Luke 12:48. Does it make sense that they will be expecting you to " Do" some things, and more of those things. The Key in understanding what Jesus meant here I think is properly understanding what Overcomming really is. Its " Your Part", its your response to Gods investment in you, and I think this is highly considered by God as to whom he will call and choose. So this really needs to be considered very closely. And this is not a " Law vs. Grace issue", its just not. Its a before and after issue, what you were " Doing and thinking" before God gave you something, and what you will do " After " he gives you something.
Were you trying to understand God before he gave you understanding, then after he gave you understanding, was your response now to stop trying to understand, as if now its all up to him? Before he gave you drink, you were thristy, now after the drink is given, are you no longer thirsty and now complettely satisfied? This is where the God is " All in All" I think can handicap a believer who is given things from God. God gives you something, what now is your aittitude toward his giving? Let me list some possible responses to Gods Giving;
1. God gives, and the receiver goes into a way of thinking that views themselves as now " Set Apart", and it is no longer them who Lives, but Christ Lives in them. Christ will now handle their living and how they view things. Christ will handle their sin, their marriage, their Job, their children, everything. Does this somehow " Exclude " their participation in all of these things? If they have an aittitude of " Helping Jesus do these things", is that to be considered as them now trying to " Play God" and work out their Salvation? Because you take an active part in helping Jesus bear the cross of your life, does that mean you have no faith in him?
2. God gives, and the receiver goes into a " Submissive Humility" in their service to him and just gives everything over to God. Not wanting to " Mess up" anything, they try to " Stay out of Gods Way." In a very strong " Act of Submission", afraid of excercising " Their Will", they are now a submissive " Lamb" to God and consider " Overcomming" as an extension of " Their Will" and not Gods Will. You know, just let God handle this.
3.God Gives, and the Receiver is so confused about the gift, that they just don't know what to do about it. They don't rightly see themselves as Overcomming anything, or God as doing everything for them, just kind of " Split down the middle", trying to exist on both sides of the issue. Neither cold or hot, just crying out to God to help them in this confusion.
Just a few examples to think on, but notice that how we react to things can determine how we either enrich our lives or complicate them. Notice in Luke 12:50; Again Jesus states that he has a " Baptism" to undergo, and " How Distressed I am until it is accomplished." Here Jesus admits that he was stressed out, because he knew he had to do something for God. He wanted to get it over with, get it done. He wanted to Overcome the events he was given to accomplish. He wanted to be involved in the events, face them. To be an Overcommer is to " Desire to be Involved" in the things of God, espically the things personally involving you. To get to them and get them done. And this is going to involve stress, and that stress is no strange thing. Espically where problems and sin is concerned, you want to get the problem solved, the sin dealt with and finished. And the thirst, the motivation, the resolve or desire to get at these things, is a very important part of the Overcommers state of Being. Its a " Blade", a Sharpening that you never want to become dull.
And I want to touch on that. Peace.
Consider 1Tim.1:12-13;" I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has strengthed me, because he considered me faithful, putting me into his service. Even though I was formerly a persecutor and a violent " Aggressor", and yet I was shown Mercy, because I ACTED ignorantly in unbelief." Here we see Paul was an Aggressive man who " Acted" on his Beliefs. Now this is what Paul did " Before his Calling", now what did he do " After his Calling?" And this is what I want you to consider in this study. Yes comming to Know God does involve change, but does the change " Take away from your active involvement?" Should it cause you to loose your aggression, your Zeal? Does it change you into some kind of " Spiritual Passifist", who now walks in such a manner that you no longer do anything with aggression? Well I hope to show that one should never somehow loose your aggressive confrontation with the sin in your life, your zeal for thristing for the Righteousness of God.
Does God " Put us into service" to become like Sheep that depends on him to herd us everywhere? Where is the " Middle Road" in this issue where we can have a humble submissive aittitude toward God and yet be dynamic like Paul? Can we use our aggression in a manner which is both benefical to ourselves and others, and please God as well?
There are two ways to committ hersey, in Doctrine and in your Life. Teaching things that are not fit for the truth, and trying to fit a style of " Living" into your life that is unfit for the Truth. And using the bible in both of these situations. And I want to touch on that a bit. Peace.
When God makes an investment in you the results don't have to be immediate, but there will be results and often those results will be predicated on your response. The time it takes is not wasted, it is " Intrest" that is building on Gods investment in you. And it will come out in time, but listen, " Do Something about his investment." What God is not doing is announcing what time he will have a bible study class with you, you have to make that schedule yourself. He willnot tell you when to go and settle any differences with your neighbor, he will just " Expect you" to do it yourself. And when " We Do" these things, we are not " Trying to obtain our Salvation", we are " Working it out" ourselves, with him as the Motivation through his standards of whats right for " Us to Do." But we need to do something about these things.
I think it is unwise for one to think they have nothing to " Do with it." We do have something to " Do" and we have until he returns to do it. Before, during and after God enters our Lives, we are actively involved. The calling of God is not stationary, and when his Spirit is involved with you, would you want it to be stationary in your Life? What makes some think that God would want your involvement with him to be stationary, don't you think God wants you to be actively involved with him on your end too? God wants us to " Manage our households", 1Tim. 3:4, Control them. He wants us to Manage our Lives and Control it too. He expects us to work for discipline in our Lives, to order and arrange things to adjust to his will. And this is the " Symmetry of the Spirits involvement" with our minds, active progression in sequence with his will,we are involved in the course set by both his Power and our response to his investment of that Power as it manifest itself through our self.
We are placed into his service and now must show ourselves thirsty for his approval, not because we are worthy, but because we are willing to show ourselves worthy of his investment, he didnot invest in us for nothing. Our adaquacy will come from him, but the " Zeal of our Adaquacy needs to be filtered with the same excitement that God had in calling us", now we are excited to respond to that calling. You first Loved me, so I will Love you back. Our lives then must " Show our expressive response to him." Whatever style we choose to live, must show some level, or levels of his Truth. The doctrines we hold to need to express Gods truth at some level in our minds. At some point in our conversations, his Truth should come out. At some level of our childrens beliefs, his Truth should manifest itself. And not large amounts of it, but enough of it to reflect an active participation that we got involved in, and involved it into their learning as best we could. Peace.
Let me mention then a danger in trying to understand Overcomming, that I think those who are weak in their understanding of Overcomming are rightfully concerned with, that of being in a wrong mentality toward our part in Growing Spiritually, or giving credit to " Our Effort", which the bible refers to as " Conceitedness." Which is having an exaggerated opinion of oneself. Although we esteem Christ as the door to our Salvation, our efforts shouldnot be viewed in any manner as the impetus by which we are saved, as if we are earning it by our behavior. The Blood of Christ gives us Gods Favor, but our efforts gives him Pleasure, and we have got to get this difference into our understanding. There is no thin line in this difference, it is a total difference, and both are needed in this walk.
When Gods people conform to his Godliness, there should be no difference in our behavior, the fruits should be the same. The difference that we see in our Doctrines is a result of the lack of understanding uniformingly, the word of Truth. In 1Tim.6:3-4;" If anyone advocates a different Doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those words of Jesus Christ, and with the Doctrine conforming to Godliness, they are " Conceited" and understand nothing."
Conceit will travel into many areas, notwithstanding even our own thoughts of what we think we understand about God ourselves. Our own Knowledge can take a root into Conceit. We begin to value our own opinions far more than we should. In conversations and arguements, you ever notice how stronger some feel about their view of something, as opposed to what the word of God plainly states? And out these disputes arise envy, strife, abusive language and evil suspicions toward one another. The gain in Spiritual conversations and debates is that the Truth comes forth, not that one wins the arguement and is considered having the superior knowledge. In such debates we must ask ourselves, who are we trying to please, our reputation or Gods pleasure? Are we really trying to help, are we looking to find and know the truth, or are we speaking through Conceit, trying to gain selfish advantage?
Whenever our efforts are Conceited then God is not receiving the Glory, and the people are not receiving the Truth. So it is with our efforts in Overcomming sin and Problems and lack of understanding, the efforts have to be centered on the Truth and not selfish Spiritual Gain. Godliness is a means of Great Spiritual Gain, and it will keep you centered on the right foundation of understanding. Both in how you are trying to live, and how you are trying to communicate with God and others.
Godliness will naturally fight against exaggerated views of oneself and keep you focused on the right interpitation of Overcomming. We then do not " Boast beyond our measure", 2Corinth. 10:12-18, but we learn to personally discern the meaning of Overcomming and the length of our involvement in it. And I want to go further into that. Peace.
In Matthews 7:7, Again Jesus;" Ask, and it shall be given to you, seek , and you shall find, Knock, and it shall be opened to you." Now I want you to contrast these words to the doctrine of " Rest" that some adhere too. Ask, seek, Knock, all Active participation, all action verbs, all define the very essence of Overcomming. All are things that we must do. Now one could take the aittitude that well if God is the one who draws and calls, why should a human Ask, Seek and Knock?
Well because Jesus said to " Do It." Do you need another reason? I am interupted, but later I want to go into What Jesus thinks about Overcomming.
Peace.
Jesus was sent to earth to " Work", to accomplish the Will of God. There are two aittitudes of Belief that I am bringing out here, and Jesus discussed them also in John 4:34-38. The aittitude of " Sowing" or doing the Work of God, and the aittitude of "Reaping" or to receive the results of someonelses work. The mindset of Overcomming is more geared toward working for God, working out your Salvation, doing things that will benefit both self and others. The mindset of reaping is more geared on " Resting on the Work of others", claiming the benefits of the work of Christ.
In vs.36-37, Jesus laments that already the reapers are in their receiving mode, enjoying the fruits of Life eternal and he does not condemn the mindset of the reaper, the receiver. He in fact states that it is his will that both the Sower, or the worker, and those who will benefit from their sowing work, both rejoice in this together. Notice vs.38; " I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labor." This is where the mindset of " Rest" comes from. Or the belief that we don't have to " Do" a whole lot, its already done for us. This means that those believers who see the wisdom in " Working and Overcomming", cannot condemn those who are more " Rest centered", who tend to depend totally on what Christ has already done and place no focus on Overcomming.
You either are a sower, or a worker, or your a reaper, or one who receives the benefits of work already done and leaves it at that. The believers aittitude will be one or the other, neither is wrong to have. In 1Corinth.3:5-10 Paul gets into this issue. God alone counts in the service of his believers, it is he who causes the growth. But notice in vs.8 " Each will receive his own reward according to his own labor." Vs. 9, " We are Gods " Fellow Workers". So we see two mindsets in believers, Pauls mindset was that of a " Worker", he said God " Made him a Master Builder."
So those who see the Work involved and are attracted to that mindset, shouldnot put down those who do not see that. And those who are reapers and are resting in God, shouldnot put down those who are seeing Overcomming and activity in living under this belief. But I want to go into some things Paul said about a mans " Work" that are of intrest.
Peace.
There are actually two kinds of " Work" where the scriptures meaning is involved. Or you could say two kinds of ministry. Both are Gods work, but one is working to minister the truth to the world, and the other is working to minister the truth to yourself, which is what Overcomming is. If you look at what Gary A. is doing with his Tentmaker Ministries that is a Work of God to minister the Truth to the world and to people, so that is a definition of " Work", Ministry. If you look at what efforts you are making to Overcome sin in your life, or the efforts you are making to bring your life in submission to Gods will, that is also a " Work." Your just working on yourself. There is no Work involved in resting in Christ and receiving his benefits.
1Corinth.3:12-15;" Each mans Work will become evident; for the day will show it." Interesting statement which he follows with saying that a test of fire itself will reveal the quality of each mans work. He then says that if the mans work survives the fire , then he shall receive a reward. So " Working for God" or being " Involved in the Ministry" has a definte reward comming from God. So Tentmaker has a destiny with this fire and if Garys work survives, he shall receive a reward from God. And I think it will survive, Tentmaker is a quality site and Gary is expanding his Work in more than just one area. Paul then says if the mans work is burned up, or it fails this test of Fire, then he himself will be saved " Through the Fire", whatever that means. It seems to suggest to me that this Fire has more than one purpose, which includes; burning away foolishness that was done in Gods name, but not endoresed by God himself, and actually HELPING people TO BE SAVED, not hurting their chances at Salvation. They are Saved " Through the Fire", which suggest the fire ASSIST in their Salvation.
Now the other kind of Work, Overcomming or working on yourself, I think this also will go through this " Testing Fire", and each person has a destiny to be " Salted" with this Fire also. Conversely I believe God will reward each person according to how they have " Worked on themselves" or Overcome in this Life. Which Is why I think it is better to be a " Worker", than a " Rester". And I want to touch on that a bit. Peace.
One thing I noticed during this study is that my own aittitude toward the " Rest belief" has been wrong, as I looked into what Jesus said about it, either approach is fine with him. The Rest or the workman.Those bretheren who are content on the rest of God are doing no wrong. If you want to rest, then rest. If you take no concern about your sin,then thats fine, if such an approach works for you. And I think that is a " Fruit from Study", as we study Gods word we have to be willing to be corrected. Just because I " Favor a certain approach", I cannot be blind to the whole spectrum of the Truth as a result of my Favortism.
And I want to take a short detour and touch on that willingness to be corrected by the Word. Because of stubborn insightful favortism toward an approach that suits your life, you cannot be blind to the Spectrum of the whole Truth. Peace.
I tell you, I went into this study with a definte predisposition of being against this " Rest in the Lord" mentality, until John 4:36-38 just hit me square in my understanding. Jesus said that he who Sows ( Which is Working) and he who Reaps ( Which is Resting or receiving the benefits from the Worker) may rejoice together. There is unity in this, it should be no contesting points of view. I never saw this before.
And I am not embarrased to be corrected, I am blessed to see it. Correction is a blessing, blindness is a curse. When God makes an investment in you, your going to be corrected, unless your just right all the time. If your right all the time, then you stand alone in humanity.
When we favor a certain approach, and find biblical support for that approach, then the bible confirms our favortism. Conversely, if we favor a certain view and find no biblical support, then it is our Opinion. If the bible does not go against the Opinion, then you are on safe ground, maybe. It depends. But if you have jumped ahead and gained a lot of ground, but blocked certain paths in your thinking, then if the bible shows you that the ground you gained is fine, but the paths you blocked shouldnot have been blocked, then you have to open back up.
In 1Pet.1:25;" The Word of the Lord Abides forever." The correction of the Lord abides forever also. Gods word is constant, and it will leave you behind if you don't keep up with it. It can loose you too. But it will turn you away from the wrong path and set your mind on the right thinking, it will correct you. And you just have to submit to the correction. And I want to go into the correction aspect as it relates to Gods investment in you. Peace.
Before I go into correction any further, let me say again that I favor the Overcomming approach that I see as consistant in the bible, but I hold no criticism to those who would rather " Sit Down" or rest on the promises of God. Its understandable to think rest, considering all the devine Power that has granted us everything pertaining to life and Godliness, 2 Pet.1:3. Speaking for myself personally,its hard for me to think rest when so much power has been introduced. I tend to think energy when power is introduced.
To become a " Partaker" of the devine nature, as mentioned in vs.4, suggest to me an active role, it then says " Having escaped the Lust that is in the World", escape certainly denotes movement to me. In vs.5 he says to apply " All Diligence in your Faith, Morals and Knowledge." Diligence means " Steady Application" and Constant effort, so you can see why I am attracted to the Work Mentality associated with Overcomming in the bible. But Gods word offers a multiple approach to service to him in some areas, this issue being one. Not everyone has to be on the move, you can sit on the promises of God if you wish.
Having Diligence in your Faith, Knowledge and Morals means to constantly apply them and always make the effort to steadyily move toward God and growth. Now if you don't have that kind of energy, then you just don't. You don't need to be a Spiritual Giant to enter into Gods Kingdom. You don't need to be a Theologian to have eternal Life. Its your choice. I like vs.8; "For if these qualities are yours and are " Increasing", they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the True Knowledge of our Lord. I quess I just don't fancy the idea of being useless and uninvolved. Peace.
But notice, there is also an " Investment Motive " here, along with our choice of " Spiritual Lifestyle." One can rest and take it easy. Look at 1 Thess. 4:11;" Make it your Ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you." I think this surely means a called and annointed person of God can certainly choose to live a " Private Lifestyle", and keep mostly to themselves. Not teaching or Preaching, not jumping into the public arena, just minding their own business. And this can be an " Ambition", just to be quiet in your living, which holds all kinds of advantages in this present world we now live in. It keeps all kinds of trouble away from you.
But now if you choose to live this kind of Spiritual Lifestyle, it still falls to you to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of the God you believe in, if you can understand that God has made an investment in you and expects intrest and results from that investment. So work on yourself, do something with your calling, use Gods power on yourself. Examine all Christ teachings in his Parables, the way he compared our lives to " Laborers whom the Father invested talents and expected them to produce." Its only going to make things better on you.
Now there is a more " Viligant Calling", a more aggressive choice of Spiritual Living that one can make. Or, that God can literally " Place you into", no matter what you choose. And I want to go into that. Peace.
In Romans 1:1 Paul was called to " Be an Apostle", set apart for the gospel of God , and he was placed into this calling, not of his own choosing. Drafted, so to speak, into doing Gods Work. No matter what he did, this was going to be what he will now do. This is a calling without a choice of your Living. A rare calling but one of the highest callings. This kind of calling almost has to be public and people oriented. There is little room for choice here.
Now then a few steps below that you have a bit " Less Agressive Calling", but still somewhat agressive. That of having " Several Gifts from God". The level of agressiveness or rank in your calling, along with the amount of Gifts given you, can be a way of determining Gods Investment in you. The greater his investment in you, the more agressive you will be, the more gifts you will have. And these are not " Set in stone concepts", there are always exceptional people who break all prejudged molds and will just be different. I have a sister in my family who has always been wild, crazy and different than any of the 6 of my brothers and sisters. My mother once confessed to me that if it were not for her knowing that she came out of her womb, she wouldnot know where she came from. Yet she said she still wonders at times where she came from. And some people of God have been and will be like that.
The varieties of Gifts God gives you is a sign of how he wants you to live your Life. For example; if God gave one person the Gift of Wisdom, of Faith, of Knowledge, Prophecy and Healing, do you think God would want this person to lead a quiet and personal private Life style? You think he would just load them up with all this, just to be a Couch Potatoe? No, hes gearing them up toward a life of Action and Work for him and others.
Does God give the Gift of teaching, only so the person can live a lifestyle of keeping things to themselves? True Ministry is the " Excerising of Spiritual Gifts", putting them in Action. So there is a distinction between Overcomming personal things in your lifestyle, Working for God, and Resting in God. And the Investments of God differ accordingly. Peace.
Moving along these lines I have expressed, if you think along with this flow, then the more God has invested in you, the more you will Work and the more you will seek to Overcome, because I think the investments of God will " Push you toward his Intrest", which will conversely move you into some kind of action toward yourself and then toward others. And this creates a " Flow amoungst the people", a kind of progressive unity that engulfs a certain " Passion for Service."
Notice 1 Thess. 2:9;" For you recall brethren , our labor and hardship, how working night and day so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God." You can view this verse twofold; one, they were employed , earning enough income to pay their own bills, or secondly, they engulfed themselves in the work of God.
Now the word of God itself is " Active", it is an energetic flow of understanding. Look at the latter part of vs.13;" You accepted not the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also PERFORMS its " Work" in you who believe." The word of God is really Working on us, actively doing things to us. Effecting our minds and lives,doing things to our living, because its a living Word. Will a living word produce a dead mind? Does an active word produce a lazy Spirit? Do you know what the Word of God really is, what it is really actively doing? And I want to touch on that a bit. Peace.
What is the Word of God? Well many will answer its the Bible, and that is correct, but it is an imcomplette answer, or its not just an answer unto itself, because the Word of God is much more. In Matt.4:4, again Jesus; "It is written, Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." There is much in this statement, but what I want to pull out of it is the " Living" that Jesus is refering to. The Word of God is a Standard of Living, a way of Living. To Live is to have conscious energy and relevant awareness. To Live is to be capable of performing vital functions, to continue and to remain effective. It is to feed and subsist.
Spiritual Living is to rise to Gods expectations and to satisfy an aim or standard that God has for you. This is what the Word of God is, and Gods influence on you MUST reflect in your way of Living. It simply must, there is no exception to this. It does not matter how much sin you have in your Life, or how much you fall,there MUST exist the standards of God IN your Life and your Living!
Often I become depressed at the sin in my life, I get moody because of it, and I brood and my Spirit becomes dull. I just hate that I am not Living up to Gods Standards. But then I look at the " Other" part of my Life, the other list of things that God has helped me to Overcome, and I begin to feel better about it. There are so many things that I don't do anymore, that I used to do. And there are just as many things that I have never done, and I just have to come out of my brood and get into a thankful approach to God for seeing to those things that could have trapped me. My sin just gets on my nerve sometimes and I think to myself;" Why are you such a fool?" And the Main drive inside of me is to Live better for God, and this is the fuel for most of my Prayers.
You know, I have to admit, I am a " Selfish Prayer", because most of my prayers are concerning myself. Asking God to help me here and help me there. Change me, give me your Spirit, help me to know the Truth, get this sin out of me, do soimething with this crazy head of mine. And it just goes on and on like a broken record. At times I have to force myself to pray about other things other than myself. Because my entire being is being effected by this thing of ours. I couldnot walk away from this if I wanted to. My whole Life is being engulfed by this. And I am this way without Gods Spirit in me, so when he does decide to give it to me, if he does, then his way of Living will already be within me, but then I will have much more Power to Live his Way. And this is what a thrist for Righteousness is about. A " Longing" to Live Gods Ways.
The Word of God IS our Living! Our Living should be a Walking Bible, thats what Jesus was! He was a Walking and Talking Bible. And I want to go into Gods Investment in Christ. Peace.
To those of you who are studying this with me, if you would endulge me for a bit, I want to look at Jesus for a moment, this most unusual Man. You know there were other Prophets living during Jesus time, and healers and miricle workers and men of magical deeds. There is no need to deny that some men were exceptional in humanity, but Jesus just simply surpassed them all! Everything about the man was and still is historical. Jesus was an exceptionally talented and unique Man. His Birth was exceptional, his Words were exceptional, his Death was extraordinary, his Life was simply both mythical and standard setting.
His Power was unlimited. In Matt. 4:23;" And Jesus was going about in All Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom, and Healing EVERY KIND of disease and EVERY KIND of sickness amoung the people." Notice that, " Every Kind", he didnot run into one that he couldnot heal. Jesus went into cities and healed everything he came accross. Imagine a man going into a hospital and healing every patient, well Jesus did greater than that, he healed cities! Healing every sick person in the town. You can't get an Atheist to believe this kind of history, its just unbelievable! Jesus is no small time healer, he has healed citys and he will heal entire nations, even this whole world! This power is unmatched in humanity.
Gods investment in Christ is embodied in 1John 4:14 because he sent him to be the Savior of the Whole World! Jesus lived 30 years of Rest in God, drawing no attention to himself. For 30 years he had to walk this Earth without trying to change it or draw people to himself. For 30 years the Prince of Power had to contain himself and try to be normal. A remarkable feat within itself to live that long being who he was but yet having to be invisible to the World AND satan. Jesus had the Power to " Hide his Power", look at John 3:21. " But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, his deeds will be manifested." You just know that for 30 years Jesus practiced the Truth of God, but he had to keep himself from comming into the Light of Men.
This means that although God may call you to do things for him, he will often keep you on ice for a good while. The reason for this has a lot to do with Overcomming and being established into, indoctrinated into, a Way of Living and Being. Its not the " Time" that God has you on Ice which is important, its the Calling he has for your Life that is much more meaningful, and often it willnot come into frutition until near the end of your Life. And I want to go into that, Peace.
I am again interupted by something that bothers me. Being currently involved in a speradic conversation at Theologyweb with a man who believes that he is one of the two witnesses, he has written and is selling his book. I mentioned to him that I cannot see someone in a high level position and calling of God, to write and sell the Truth they were given.
I cannot see a prophet of God, or a deciple of God, or even Jesus writting and selling a book to the public. I know that times are different, but I cannot see God giving his Truth to someone he has called to a high level of calling, who then turns around and offers it for sale. Perhaps I am not thinking here, but that just does not fit.
It bears to question, can a person of God make a Living off of the Truth?
Peace.
When God makes an investment in you, can you then turn around and make money off of his investment? Well I think that depends. If God gave you a mind of wisdom and a heart to match, and you become a paied counselor, I see no harm in that. If God gave you the mind and heart of a good caring mother who has a love for children, and you open up a day care center, I see no harm in that. So in certain situations, using Gods investments in you to generate money is understandable.
But what about the knowledge of the Truth? Should you use the Truth to generate income? Should you sell the Truth for personal income? And I want to go into that. Peace.
There is an interesting Oxymoron in Prov.23:23;" Buy the Truth and do not sell it, get wisdom and instruction and understanding." I admit to some personal confusion here. It starts out by saying to " Buy" the Truth, which certainly suggest that it has to be sold to you, but then it says not to " Sell it." An apparent contridiction. And I am kind of up in the air on this, but I am leaning toward the latter part of the verse as juxtaposing the first part of it. It makes more sense to me not to sell the Truth.
Oh but what ramifications that opens up. Look at all the " Religous Books" that have been sold, including the Bible itself. Oh that is a subject all unto itself. But I want to breifly touch on it a bit. Peace.
One would think that God needs to invest in writers if he is to get his truth out to the world, and that those writers would have to write many books and get them published. Or he would have to invest in traveling and preaching evangelist to verbally get his message out. Or such is what everyone seems to believe. Really, that would be a bypassing of his Holy Spirit, and then a direct investment in humans. He would be asking the humans to do something that the Holy Spirit could do much better. The world is gripped in the belief that now is the Day of Salvation, and that the Gospel is then a " Converting Message", meant to now convert whosoever will accept it. If such were the Truth, then God is only reaping from his investments, those who believe the message, and the avialible data shows not too promising results.
If you assume that the Gospel message is based on a " Risk Factor", and that God has calculated the results of human effort to get that message out to determine his investments, that is placing a burden on humanity that they just cannot bear out in accordance with Gods expectations. And it devalues Christ efforts as being interconnected with those of his followers. The Gospel message works best, when it is used and presented as it was intended to be, " As a Witness", not as a convincing Conversion message. The Holy Spirit Converts, humans just witness to that. The Holy Spirit opens up and writes Gods message into the mind, what men write does not overide that.
God has an obligation to provide Truthful information to humanity. The Bible is a written book of information and it tells of the comming Kingdom of God. Although the Buffer between man and God has been removed, the Kingdom of God has not been established on Earth. If it was already established , then there would be no biblical reason to keep all of humanity from a Godly Established Kingdom on Earth. Why keep a door closed to an establishment of God? Borders are put in place to keep people out, if God has established his Kingdom on Earth already, why are there still Borders? Whats keeping the people of the Earth from entering in?
When you erect borders, and yet tell people they may enter, that is useless contridiction. If a gulf is fixed then there has not been a Kingdom Established that includes everyone, where all are welcome. It is here that certain believers in God who adhere to the doctrine of the Kingdom being now established on Earth " In Them", actually preach and teach the Kingdom of God to be now " Segregated." Those on the outside are being fed a message that they are not " Now Included." They teach the Kingdom is now here, and I quess they just View Gods pressence in Heaven, his Throne, the entire Spiritual relm, as " Some other part of the Kingdom", which is not yet on Earth. Kind of Like;" Well the Kingdom of God is already here, but the ruling throne is not." The Kingdom is here " In Spirit", but the castle just has not come down. I view this as a " Watering Down" of Gods investment in his Gospel message, it sends mixed views of what " Established Means." And it sends a message that God is Partial, that he is only now establishing his Kingdom, before hand, in certain chosen people.
This places Gods investment in the Gospel into " Situations", and makes his Established Will Situational, which is a real turn off to people who do not know God. The worst thing a message bearer could do, is to bring a message to a people, tell them that they willnot understand the message, but that the message is for them, but they just cannot receive the benefits of the message now, but that I, the message bearer, can only have the benefits now. Thats one of the worst ways to bear witness of the Truth.
And I want to show why. Peace.
The average person who " Thinks" they are called of God to know the Truth, are not good witnesses of the Truth at all. Those who view themselves as Gods annointed and having his Holy Spirit, are some of the most introverted laid back people I have ever known. They are just not good witnesses of the Truth. They tried to be a witness a few times, they could tell people just did not want to hear it, so they " Shut Down their verbal witness." They are " Situational Witnesses", only able to be a witness for God, amoungst other people like themselves who believe what they do.
So you get a group of people together who only witness amoungst themselves, who believe that only they have Gods Spirit, and that the Kingdom is now within them, in my view, such a group is useless to the world. And I want to go into why. peace
And what I mean by " Useless to the World", is what are you doing to get this truth out into the world? And if you are honest with yourself, only you know that answer. What are you " Doing" to be a witness for God? If you are doing nothing, what does that say about Gods investment in you. If you are not witnessing, what has happened to silence you? Why are you being introverted with Gods investment in you?
I spend everyday witnessing Gods truth to people all over this earth. Everyday via the internet. And most days wherever I personally go, I end up witnessing about God to somebody in some conversation, this truth that I believe. And most of those conversations I do not start. I can't explain it, but most people start talking about God to me. I was kind of surprised the other day, I discovered that someone had used my name on their phone bill , to get their phone account turned on. They kept the account open for two years, paied the bills, but then closed it, leaving just an 89.00 balance, so it could have been worse. Rather than pay it off, I asked for advice as to what to do. Well anyway, you report it to the police and send the police report to the company collecting the debt, then its removed from your credit report because its ID fraud.
Well anyhow, I went to the Police station, just told the clerk what had happened and made the report. Then the guy just starts talking about God and what he viewed as the truth. I disagreed with most of what he spoke and took the time to explain why. I was so focused on him that I neglected to pay attention to the Police behind me, or just near us. So I snapped out of my dialouge only to notice that the shift had changed or something, because they were everywhere. And half of them listening were not smiling. So I told the one who I was speaking too, that I found it unusual that he would want to talk about this at work, being a policeman and all. He kind of smiled and said to me that he was just moved to talk to me. He said he never had heard the things I told him. And I kindly excused myself before I got arrested. And this happens to me at least 50% of the time I get out in public. And I admit to starting a good portion of it myself.
And the internet is a " Harvest for the Truth." The harvest is plentiful on the internet. I have enjoyed witnessing on the internet for years. A couple of months ago I was invited by a fellow to come to a website they had started. I asked him " Why me"? He said because we have opened all kinds of sections, including a " Religion Discussion section". He had come to a website that I witness on and asked me to do it on his website. To my surprise, most of his members are Athiest. Or at least they seem to be to me. Some of the most arrogant, mean spirited and cynical sarcastic people I have encountered. But I agreed with the request and I am witnessing there. But it was " Requested of me." The man said he asked me to come, because he saw how " Passionately" I was doing it on the site he met me on. He said " Just come to my site and do your thing." And I like doing it too.
And I want to go into Gods investment in us concerning witnessing. Peace.
The topic of witnessing is uncomfortable to some, because it is an " Outward sharing of an inner experience" which requires some effort. An according to the person you speak with, it could become " Work", because its hard to speak with some people. I recall one Prophet who gave the impression that he " Just couldnot hold his Peace, that this Truth was like Fire shut up within him, Burning to get out." Well some have been led to somehow, for various reasons, let the fire of the Truth be shut up within them, and they have learned to let it be contained within them, unless they are in more comfortable situations. These are " Situational Witnesses", they will bear Witness, but only in certain comfortable situations. But at the least, they will witness. At least there is " Some Investment in them" that will come out. We must be careful here not to allow the reasons for our silence to cross over from the uncomfortableness of certain situations, into the area of " Shame."
Being ashamed to bear witness to the Truth is being in a situation that is offensive to your Pride. Yes Pride has something to do with the witholding of the Truth. You think you know what you know, and the other person does not know, and you assume that they cannot know, thus you are more priviledged than they are. So its not your problem. Then after getting in enough " Situations" where you have been rejected by others, you feel that experience has taught you to " Not even go there anymore." And then you think the lesson from those experiences is to go into " Witnessing Withdrawal", and you think this lesson is from God. So now God has invested in you to Withdraw his Truth from people, and you are now a part of " Some kind of Private Church." Or that you are so " Privileged" that you no longer have to let this truth come out of you.
Well I want to go into what the Bible has to say about that. Peace.
I like the Song " Must Jesus bear the cross alone and all the world go free, no theres a cross for everyone and theres a cross for me." We are involved in this thing too. Let me show you something very, very important that Jesus said that is ignored. In John 5:31;" If I ALONE bear witness of myself, my testimony is not True!" The Truth of Jesus testimony is not just all invested in him alone. He does not do it all! Part of the calling of God is to bear witness of the Truth. The silent treatment that some believers of the Truth are giving to the world is not inspired by Christ or God, if you are silent you are inspired to be so for other reasons that are your own, and not to be placed on God. In vs.33 John was sent to bear witness of the Truth, he had to be actively involved in it. Although John was perhaps a very private man, he still didnot allow that comfort zone to zone him away from getting this truth out.
You have to be willing to witness, to discuss, to talk with people and share this truth. Too many have grown into habitual tracks of silence and only speaking in their comfort zones, where they feel safe and accepted. Like a bunch of intimidated sheep, they only speak out in the herd. You cannot allow Jesus to witness alone or his Testimony will not be true. Now that may shock you, you may feel like disagreeing, but if you do, you disagree with Christ. Jesus said very clearly that if he alone does the witnessing, then his testimony willnot be true. So we are responsible for doing it, or we lend to his witness as being false. If you then withold the Truth, then your witness is false, its dead to the world, and lives only in you. This is why I said that a group of people who are aware of the Truth and are witholding it, not bearing witness of it, are useless to the world. And I want to continue on witnessing. Peace.
John 5:31;" If I alone bear witness of myself, my testimony is not true." This is a very great insight as to how Jesus views his followers as being active Overcommers and " Doers of Gods word." He wants you to be doing things until he returns for you. His statement also reinforces the Biblical rule of evidence which requires two or three witnesses, Num.35:30, Deut.17:6, John 8:17-18.
There should be no excuses for not witnessing the Truth you understand, although I am afraid that many have fallen into that grove in their habitual way of expression. In order for the Gospel Truth to stand as admissible Evidence to the world, it must have witnesses who are actively sharing it. I see believers absorbing certain views about Jesus being All in All and God being All in All, and their thinking is diverted to the extreme, as if we have no active participation in this whole " Spiritual Thing." If you do not Witness, you render Jesus witness as in Vain. Your silence is a type of " Disowning his testimony before men." So there exist a personal responsibility to tell this truth story. Not as a conversion tactic, but as a witness to it.
So I want to go a little further into witnessing, some more scriptures and some helpful ways for you to witness, AND some examples of unfruitful witnessing. Peace.
Before I go into ways of Witnessing, I wanted to comment on how satan will use the scriptures to look to decrease Gods investments in his children. Perhaps some will not see this, but some of you can see that Christ needs us to witness for him to make his Testimony relevant. Jesus stateing that if he alone bears the witness, then his testimony is not true. Well satan will look to cause believers to draw back from testifying and bearing witness, which is actively speaking to others about the true gospel.
Whatever scriptures satan can then use to silence the believer " In any mannerism" from giving their witness, is then effective. The scriptures which teach that it is God who " Draws", can be used to silence a witness of God. The believer being seduced will be led to think in terms of God doing the drawing, so why should I bear witness to someonelse, thats the Job of God. They are then silenced.
The overexposure to the " Rest Doctrine in Hebrews", which , if taken or led in the wrong manner, could lead a believer into thinking that witnessing is " Trying to Work for God to save others", they are then silenced.
The lack of understanding the Job of the Holy Spirit, and a total lack of understanding that a believer has a Job to do also, will silence the witness of many. And many scriptures can be incorperated into the achievement of stagnating the witness of a believer, either outright silence them, or reduce them to witnessing only to their own fellow believers, or to those who come to a place on a website that they frequent.
I think one of the most distrubing examples of silencing our witness, is the butterfly effect of the Law vs. Grace arguement. Make the believer think that any effort that they make, is equated to some kind of " Law approach", which in my view is just brilliant deception. And this deception has worked very effectively and penertrated deeply into our Spiritual consciousness. It has reduced the value of Overcomming and Witnessing and has " muted " many mouths that could other wise have spent years in witnessing, and growing in the skill of witnessing, as well as Overcomming. Peace.
Witnessing needs to be considered what it is, it is a personal appointment from Christ. Now if you consider yourself belonging to Christ, then the appointment covers you, the responsibility is yours, not to be avoided. In Acts 26:16;" Stand up and understand the purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a Witness." One could argue that this was only for Paul, but you must ask yourself if the true church of God has a calling, and if it does, what is that calling? Is not every member a Minister, does all fall under the same Salvation as Paul? Are we to now compartmentalize Gods calling? Only certain responsibilitys fall to certain people?
In Rev.3:8 " I have set before you an open door which no man can shut." Part of this open door is the freedom to witness Gods Truth. Here we have the freedom to witness Gods truth, and even with this freedom, some have allowed themselves to be silenced. Silenced by your own lack of desire. Muted by the forces that seek to make the Testimony of Christ disapear. Even worldly churchs witness much more than many annointed people. The Open door is the Opportunity to Witness.
Opportunity then is important to Witnessing. If someone invites the conversation, then get in there and verbally lay the guidelines of the Truth. If they start the conversation, then you finish it. If the door opens, then go through it, and while you are in there, give a verbal display of Gods plan of Salvation. And as God sees how you do with that, HE will put you in more situations to give his Witness. Once your eyes are keyed into what an open door is, you will habitually witness, it will become second hand and natural to you. Taking no concern about the outcome of the conversation, you will just do what you are called to do, witness the truth. You don't even have to worry about " Finding open doors", from experience I am telling you that the situations will be " Given to you." Thats what an open door is. God will send it right to you much of the time, once he knows that you will witness.
I remember once some years ago, my oldest sister called me over to her house. She told me on the phone that she really needed to talk with me. I had understood the truth only a year or two, and was not sharing it with my family very much, I was struggling with it myself. She was very frustrated and visably distrubed. We sat down in the kitchen and she was crying a bit. I asked her what was wrong. She said Michael, I need to know the Truth. Do we have a chance to be with God? Is all this stuff these churchs are teaching really true, because I am confused about it. She said she had heard me say one time that everybody will be saved, and wanted to know if that was really true. I assured my sister that day and told her Gods plan of Salvation. I will never forget her big smile, as she hugged me and I felt a sigh of relief in her body as she embraced me. She kissed me and said thank you, and that was the last kiss and hug I received from her, she was killed 4 days later.
If you have fears and frets about witnessing, just keep praying about it, our God is able to equip you to do the things that he desires for you to do. And it will become more and more comfortable for you to do in time. Become a part of the " Great Cloud", put your mentality in line to be used by God. In Heb.12:1" Since we have so great a cloud of Witness surrounding us." The cloud of witness here at Tentmaker is great, and a few other sites as well. It offers a great comfort zone and feeds many. Don't you think the world of unbelievers deserves that Cloud over them? When you leave Tentmaker to go about your daily life, do you leave that cloud here? Take it with you. Everywhere you go just stand ready to walk through that open door, and USE your knowledge to do what Jesus did when he was but 12 years old. Jesus went into that temple and was witnessing, and they perhaps gave him a rough time in doing it. Peace.
The Investment that God has made in you, is his " Witness to you", or God witnessing to you. So in that sphere of thinking, witnessing is then " Evidence." Because of Gods witness to us, we then can have Faith in him. In Heb. 11:1;" Now Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the Evidence of things not seen." When you witness the truth to someone you are sharing your Conviction with them. You are not trying to cram this truth down their throats and force feed them. In my view, Witnessing should only be done when the other mind is open to hearing it. Listening to something is not a sign of agreement, but it is an invitation to communicate.
Notice 1Tim. 6:18;"Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good Works, to be generous and ready to share." The mind involved outwardly with the Gospel will be willing to share it, to communicate it to others. Witnessing is sharing the Gospel with others, its outward, not keeping it to yourself. Its an " Exhortation" or an Appeal, its giving encouragement, its talking to people, communicating with them. In Romans 12:8 Exhortation is clearly listed as a Gift of God and it is to be USED as an expression of your service to him. So to think in terms of " Well I just don't feel like witnessing to others", is in essence saying that you don't feel like serving God at that moment. You have to learn to go with the flow. You don't fight the flow, you don't " Kick against the pricks", don't quinch the Spirit comming to you to move you.
There are times that I just cannot sleep, a thought or two just keeps running through my mind, and I have learned not to fight it off, but to get up and write it down, once its off my chest, I can then go back to sleep. And inevitably I find that the thought must be used in my witnessing somewhere down the line and it always fits in perfectly. In this manner God witnesses to us, so that it can be shared with others. To exhort is to appeal passionately. Let me stop here and say something. When God witnesses to you, it can often be a passionate appeal. So often I am moved by something God has placed within my mind. I kind of liken it to a commercial I once saw about starburst candy on television. The child puts it in their mouth and an explosion of flavor captivates their tastebuds. I can be sleep, watching television, involved in a short study of the bible or just doing nothing, and God pops a witness into my mind and " Boom", its like a sudden burst of Spiritual flavor. I understand it instantly and so often it just trips me out. I just say to myself;" So thats it!" And I really do say that, because goodness, I didn't know it before. These kind of personal experiences just make me wonder what a wonder it would surely be, to have Gods Spirit inside of me continually, oh and it makes me thirst for Gods Righteousness.
When you witness the truth to someone, they don't know it. When the Spirit helps me understand, thats because it has to,I don't know it. Thats why it requires a certain level of devotion to be a witness for God, as you understand that the people don't really know him, you are moved to share him with them, the true him. Peace.
When God makes an investment in you, at whatever level it is, it is done with his Power. Gods investment is Power. Look at 2 Thess. 1:11;" To this end also we pray for you always that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the " Work of Faith" with Power." Desire for goodness is a thrist for righteousness, a craving for a fruit of the Spirit. But notice how he calls Faith a " Work", then states the work of Faith with Power. God gives you Faith, he imbues that Faith with Power, so that it can become " Active" and lead you to " Work." Well again, what is this " Work?" It is Overcomming and Witnessing, two reasons why God delays his Comming. Thats how he wants you to be spending your time.
Some of our eyes just need to be enlightened on these matters, because of this laid back couch potatoe aittitude we have absorbed with our Faith. The Power of God does not breed Lazybones. Consider Eph.1:19;"And what is the surpassing greatness of his Power toward us who believe. ( but notice what this Power is based on and in accordance with you Doing), " These are in Accordance with the Working of the Strength of his Might." Its according to how you " Work his Power." That is active participation, its a Thing that is meant to be stirred up. You need to be doing something with that Power. Notice 2 Tim.1:6;"For this reason I remind you to Stir up the Gift of God which is in you." Some of us need to hit the refresh button of our Belief and rekindle this laid back resting approach we have settled into. God has " Not" given a Spirit of Timidity, but a Spirit of Power. One reason I believe that certain believers are so laid back and taylor made for rest is because the Spirit has not been given, so their is no active participation comming out through Power.
Anyhow, I want to go into how you can personally perceive the level of investment God has made in you, just how much Power he has given you. Peace.
How can you know the investments God has made in you? Can we actually know the level of Power that we have? Well yes, you can know some of this for sure, and its good to be sure about it. Again Jesus in Matt. 7:20;" You will know them by their Fruits." Or by what is " Growing out from you." You can know what God has invested in you, by what is actively comming out of you. Like a tree that bears fruit, things will just grow out of you, and each year the " Quality of the Fruit", will improve. This is what Jesus meant in vs.18 when he taught that a good tree willnot produce bad fruit. What God has invested in you is good, and it will produce. Whatever areas you see yourself consistantly improving in, those are the areas that God has heavily invested in you. And I want to touch on some of this. Peace.
I want to close this out by saying that you can know the truth, and the truth will set you free. You can know the power that God has given you, simply by the things you are able to do. Conversely, you can know the level of weakness that you have, by observing how you are not doing, what you are able to do. If you absorb energy, you will be energectic, if you absorb lazy doctrines, you will be lazy. The way you live your life, is a living testement and witness of Gods investment in you.
Peace.
willieH: Hi Mickiel... :hithere:
You've been alone over here in this thread, thought I'd giveya a little company! :winkgrin:
Quote from: Mickiel on March 25, 2008, 12:52:11 AM
There is an interesting Oxymoron in Prov.23:23;" Buy the Truth and do not sell it, get wisdom and instruction and understanding." I admit to some personal confusion here. It starts out by saying to " Buy" the Truth, which certainly suggest that it has to be sold to you, but then it says not to " Sell it." An apparent contridiction. And I am kind of up in the air on this, but I am leaning toward the latter part of the verse as juxtaposing the first part of it. It makes more sense to me not to sell the Truth.
I certainly agree that the TRUTH should NEVER be "sold"... it must be ALWAYS "given away" to maintain its purity... for attaching
selfish gain, in essence, taints that purity...
The Hebrew word translated "buy" in your quoted verse, ...in its primary definition actually means ...to
ERECT... (it can also mean
purchase, but primarily means to
gain or erect)
This
type of terminology is also used in:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to
BUY of me gold tried in fire that thou mayest be rich...
Obviously we DO NOT
"buy" TRUTH from God... it is benevolently given to us to help us...
The english term "buy" may be used to convey, BELIEF...
Many sports teams are said to "
buy into the coaches system"... which actually conveys that they BELIEVE in it and absorb themselves within the system to make it work... thereby the "coach's system" actually becomes a part of THEMSELVES...
Hope that gives you a view from another perspective brother... :Sparkletooth:
...willieH :thumbsup:
HI Mickiel:
Until just recently I was more of the "laid back" type, maybe more extreme than what the Scriptures ask of us. I thought, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen because God wants it that way."
Well, in one sense that's maybe true. He gets what He wants.
Still, I had to re-examine that idea because of some of the verses you mentioned, as well as others. (Or at least what I saw that you wrote, because what you wrote was so long, I skipped much of it. Good or bad, I skipped a bit. :))
For example, there is the parable of one who had a talent that he decided to hide away because he knew that his Lord reaps all things, even that which He didn't sow. And his Lord rebuked him because he didn't put that knowledge to good use. (At least that's what I'm seeing from that parable.....)
Truly, we seek to be guided by the Spirit of God (Jesus). That is why we were created, is to be completely submitted to and looking only to Him.
I believe that the overcomers will be a people who have their senses trained to discern and follow ONLY the voice of God. That is what Jesus of Nazareth did, and He said, "follow me."
I saw an interesting clip on YouTube by a guy named Pastor Prince. He talked about how, instead of trying to do things ourselves, it's God who must be allowed to work through us. (Again, that doesn't mean sitting on the couch all day, unless that's really what He's showing you to do.)
Just me rambling again...
Brian
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on April 08, 2008, 03:30:16 PM
HI Mickiel:
Until just recently I was more of the "laid back" type, maybe more extreme than what the Scriptures ask of us. I thought, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen because God wants it that way."
Well, in one sense that's maybe true. He gets what He wants.
Still, I had to re-examine that idea because of some of the verses you mentioned, as well as others. (Or at least what I saw that you wrote, because what you wrote was so long, I skipped much of it. Good or bad, I skipped a bit. :))
Brian
Well you must excuse me for often being long winded, I try to contain that but it just happens when there is a lot in you. Overcomming and the Holy Spirit are not comfortable subjects to tackle, why I sometimes try to take them on, I just don't really know. I sometimes meditate on why I discuss the things that I do, you know, just ask yourself why you are posting something, for what reason. Is it worth anything, does it help. What I mostly keep comming up with, is that these are the things that concern me the most. I noticed a common thing that occurs at all the places that I post at, that being the responses that I get are usually not many. Many people always read it, but few respond. Yet I continue, so I know I am not doing it to illict response. This used to cause me to take a " Laid back approach" to posting, which leads to withdrawal of your witness. And thats not good. You have to witness, and do it not based on response. One of the obvious reactions in serving a God who does so much for you, is to do less for him.
I once had a girlfriend who did everything for me, I mean literally everything. She smothered me for years, showered me with gift after gift. Eventually I noticed that slowly it made me " Lazy in the Relationship." I had gotten to the point that I grew accoustomed to her doing this. I wouldnot wash the dishes because I knew when she came over that she would. She would get irritated if I did, because she wanted to do it herself. Clean the bathroom, make up the bed, wash the clothes, at least she let me empty the garbage. And most men would love to be in that situation. As I caught on to this , I remember sitting her down and telling her that she was just doing too much for me, it was making me " Lazy." At first I " Enjoyed the lazyness", but eventually I reconized what was happening to me. Paying my bills and buying me clothes and all the things my apartment ever needed. It was a suttle pacification of my manhood and responsibilities, and I could see how a man could submit to this and stay in it the rest of his life. But something begin to bother me about it, I begin to miss " Doing my responsibilities." Doing things for myself was a vital part of me, but the temptation and satisfaction of someonelse doing it for me was alluring. So I actually broke up with this woman, because she was doing far too much for me, and she couldnot help herself, she was a " Caretaker." A good mother and I think would be a good, very good wife, but just not for me. I am more comfortable taking care of myself, I look for other things in a woman, but I am not against women who are like this, the few of them who are. I am the kind of man, well if I can't do it, and she can, then fine, if I need the help, then help me there, don't handicap me by doing things that I can or should do.
Conversely, I can most defintely see this occuring with having a relationship with God, the charactheristics are eriely simular. A God who overly Loves you and cares for you. He will do everything for you and shower you with Gifts. You can very easily become outright dependant on him and just slide into bliss and lay back and do nothing. And many are doing this, and the bliss can slowly turn from rest to falling asleep, then your behaving like your a baby again. Get fed and go to sleep, and do nothing all day but feed and sleep. Perhaps I don't know a good thing when I see it, but I'mjust not wrapped like that. Thats not comfortable to me, I got to have some say in the matter, I need to be involved in whats going on. I am more comfortable in doing my best, or fall trying.
Peace. Excuse me for being long.
I often wonder how people interpit Jesus saying " Go and sin no more". If you look at it through the lenses or the eyes of "rest", then you can view it as meaning " Don't worry about it." Sin is already Overcome so why be concerned with it. It takes a lot of weight off of personal responsibility and makes resting much easier. I understand why that view is gaining popularity. There is another way to look at Go and sin no more, another aittitude that has different eyes of interpitation. Go, and don't " Do that anymore", which invites involvement of your effort. And this again is the two sided nature of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Two approachs that one could take, two influences on how to interpit scripture, two sides of the coin.
Many websites spend time debating these two sides, and have grown accustomed to being fed from debate. Like sitting down to dinner with your family and arguing while your eating. The conversation becomes habitual, the meals become grumpy, and this becomes common place. We learn how to be proficent in arguements and overcome that, and we get fat and neglect how to Overcome sin. You know what, I think concerning sin, that you as an individual plants, waters, and then God gives the increase concerning Overcomming. Whatelse do you think God determines this from? You plant your desire to Overcome, your effort waters it, then from observation to that, God gives the increase, or the victory from it. Or do you think God uses another way? You think he just plays eni, mini, mynie moe, then chooses one of us and gives us a victory in one area, reguardless of how we are living? You think he just automatically gives release from every sin in your life? What promps God to grant repentance? How is repentance manifested and distributed? Is it spread out equally and automactically amoung all the bretheren? If that was the case then all of us would be exact in our walk toward God. We all would show the same results in our lives, we would show the same progress.
Its the Widows Mite in reverse. In John 12:44, the people gave to God from their " Surplus", but the widow gave from her " Poverty", and gave it all she had. Conversely, in Overcomming Sin, you know that you have sin in your life, and you give all you have got in the fight against it. You may have hardly no strength or characther, but you still give all you have to Overcome. Then there are those who give nothing, give it no thought, because they walk in surplus. Two complettely different mindsets, one offers freedom from the fight, the other longs for freedom from it. These two different aittitudes may well be the seeds of two different churchs forming. Churchs are formed from aittitudes, or set patterns of belief.
I sometimes wonder who Jesus was talking to when he said Repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand. The people of the world, or the people considering themselves his Church.
Peace.
Thats strange, it seems the whole last page of this dialog has dissapeared.
? Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on April 10, 2008, 12:47:14 AM
Thats strange, it seems the whole last page of this dialog has dissapeared.
? Peace.
May I ask why the dialog was removed?
Hmm...........
Anybody?
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on April 10, 2008, 03:17:00 PM
Hmm...........
Anybody?
I understand moderators removing dialog for whatever reason, that is done at their neccessary discresion, but they usually do so with at least a warning or an explination. I simply would like to know why it was removed, so that I can understand if I wrote something wrong, learn from that and continue.
Peace.
Quote from: Mickiel on April 10, 2008, 06:22:27 PM
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on April 10, 2008, 03:17:00 PM
Hmm...........
Anybody?
I understand moderators removing dialog for whatever reason, that is done at their neccessary discresion, but they usually do so with at least a warning or an explination. I simply would like to know why it was removed, so that I can understand if I wrote something wrong, learn from that and continue.
Peace.
Well anyhow, I had thought to close this thread out, but continued because of the intrest of a few. Some of the continuation has disapeared without explination, although I do not understand that, well things happen for whatever reason, so I'll leave that mystery alone, it has happened to me before.
God often makes investments in people that are very hard to endure. Such as physical handicaps, being mentally chalenged or other things we consider birth defects. Often God goes the other route and gives people areas of unique brillance and extraordinary talents. But then those whom he calls to the truth are altogether a different story, because its a different kind of investment. If God called a president of a country, or a very popular politician, or a worldwide personality, you ever wonder what that would result in? Would you assume that such a person would be more powerful or influential than you? Well you assume wrong, and I want to show you why. Peace.
One would think that God would call a very rich man who had the resources to start a church and build it worldwide. Or call a very influencial person with far reaching popularity in the media, wouldnot such a person be the obvious choice to start a church and pull this thing together? If you look at the story of David, how when they came looking for the next King, the next leader of Gods choice, and they found a shepard with a slingshot, a keeper of the sheep. Yet he turned out becomming a Great King. In this manner the Power of God is revealed and exalted. And hes going to do that again, go the least route expected.
In 1Corinth. 1:25," The foolishness of God is wiser than men, the weakness of God is stronger than men." A difficult verse to consider, because God has no weakness or foolishness, so how is this verse to be interpited? Well if you are to compare God to men, there really is no comparision in strength and wisdom, so we have to use conjecture and speculation. We must speculate that " If" God had a weakness, that even that speculated weakness would be stronger than the greatest strength in men. That " If" God had a point in his wisdom that could even be considered a weak point, such as his Forgiveness, that even it would be wiser than the greatest wisdom in humanity. God then is a very luminating Power, we could combine all of our wisdom on earth, all of our knowledge, all of our technology and all of the Earths military Power, all this combined would still be considered as less than nothing in comparrison to God.
So God could take any of you, " Any of you reading this", and make you a King, a Prince or Queen, a world leader, a church starter, make you one of the two witnesses, anything he so desires can come out of little you! And you know what, thats how he has shown that he likes doing it. We find ourselves wondering how God is going to do things, waiting for some mythical leader to pop up with the Truth, you'd be better off looking into the mirror in your bathroom, Gods leaders or group are at better odds comming from the person you see on the other side of your own mirror, than from poping out of the woodwork of this worlds scenery.
If you consider Gods investment in this world, then you can consider your own calling and his investment in you. God has chosen to go the route of calling those who are not popular, not rich, not influential, not wise and not noblemen. This is where Gods Leadership will come from, the sheepkeeping slingshot carrying people that the earth does not take notice of. Why would God do such a thing, make his powerful investment in people who are not powerful? And oh how the answer to that is so revealing.
Peace.
One reason why God invest in the not so obvious and seemingly unworthy, is because he is investing in " Endurance and Faith." The fame and public posture of the world will pass away, but what God is establishing will endure, and is meant to last. So the calling of God has to do with a whole lot of private " Going Ons", that the public is not privy to. A Permanance is being developed, God is calling you to suffer , and to sustain without yielding, to undergo great moral and emotional pressure, and these things are being recorded in heaven, Gods investment will show a lot of intrest.
You know, I know God willnot do this, but if he would show you , really show you how much you have grown, how much progress in every little area that you have obtained, you would be surprised. Our progress are the Jewels stored in Heaven, the treasure which God values above all his riches. What is the pathology behind" When we are weak, then we are strong?" I want to get into that. Peace.
Knowing that God holds the Power to force humanity to obey, but has instead given the path of human history to itself and not influencing it towards righteousness, then we have to assume that to him humanity will bow for other reasons, every tounge will swear allegiance. I had thought for some time that God will force humanity to obey, but I am beginning to think otherwise. I think God is after the " End of the Story", he being the ending of all things. Let the course of human history have its run, and like any human society, we will have grown tired of our ways and accept a change to Gods way. Barak Obama, perhaps the most popular " New Politician" of my lifetime, outside of John Kennedy, is running his campain on change, and it seems it will fuel him to victory. The people want change, and I think that is why most people will finally submit to God. The world will have been complettely drained and utterly hopeless, and from that position will " See God for what he really is, Change from this condition."
The condition is that of weakness. Did you know that weakness has " A Quality", it has charactheristics and levels of excellence that God is attracted to. You can actually obtain a level of excellence through weakness. As a parent, have you ever noticed your child falling while trying to walk? You see their little legs moving one way as they look at you from another way, and you know eventually they are going to come to you, just after their little legs take them all over the place, while they fall all along the way. And you find yourself laughing and enjoying the moment, you Love them so much. But you know their falling will help them to walk. Although they are weak, they will one day be strong.
This is how God views our Weaknesses, he knows thats going to change. Peace.
God indeed holds the Power to change things, and yet Power is another way to determine Gods Investment in you. When God gives you strength and Control, those are signs of him investing in you. In fact if you notice any of the Fruits in Galations comming out of you, those are signs of God investing in you. When God gives your Life or even your words energy and Vigor, he has made an investment in you. Your words will seem to have command and authority, your communication will be Spiritually Competent and Efficiant, as if you are compelled by a Force not of your own. Your Adequacy will come from God.
Another way that you can know if God has invested in you, is how your Heart has taken to the Commission to Witness for him. If fact we show God our Love for him, by how we carry out his Assignments. Jesus was sent on a Mission to save this world, we are sent on a mission to Witness to this world. A mission is an appointment, a Consignment, it makes you a Delegate of God entrusted with his word of Truth. Now when God installs delegates into this world, employs them with Power to Witness, and they are not doing it, how could that be pleasing to God? Ask yourself this about Matthews 24:14;" And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in ALL the World " As a Witness" to ALL Nations, and then the end shall come." Do you see the charge to all believers in this prophecy of Christ? Are you going to be a personal part of this? This is special committee appointment, its a nomination, an assignment, and those called to it will just naturally hold an urge to do it.
We have people who believe that the Gospel of the Kingdom is within them, and yet strangely it seems to stay within them and they never witness it to the world. Listen again to Jesus in John 18:37;" You say correctly that I am a King. I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the Truth." If we are followers of Christ, how can we " Not" witness? Thats the very reason Jesus came here, to Witness. It then follows thats the very reason you have been called by God, if you have, to be a Witness, does that make any sense to you?
We then can know the level of Gods investment in us by our level of Witness. How much you have centered your life around Witnessing, how much you actively do it and how much energy you invest in doing it. Peace.
QuoteJesus was sent on a Mission to save this world, we are sent on a mission to Witness to this world.
I often watch other Christians to see how they conduct themselves outside the "church" environment. I don't know if it's a judgmental approach, or if the Lord is wanting me to understand something there. I must say that I have often asked, "shouldn't they be showing it more??"
My grandpa was always talking about the Lord. It really bothered a lot of my family, too. But he was sincere, and never judgmental of others. Always encouraging others to know truth and seek Christ in you.
He was really special, and not just because he was my grandpa. In fact, I never had strong ties to my family until I became a Christian. Then it was like he and I saw eye-to-eye. And I loved talking with him.
Yes, testimony. Still, it may be that God has us participate in it when His timing is right. Otherwise, we may be moving in the flesh and not the Spirit.
Bri
[quote author=whyiloveitaly
Yes, testimony. Still, it may be that God has us participate in it when His timing is right. Otherwise, we may be moving in the flesh and not the Spirit.
Bri
[/quote]
One thing about this to consider, if and when we use people as an example of how we should or shouldnot witness about the truth, then other people set the standard. If we use Christ as the standard, then we need to consider his witness. How and when he did it and what kind of " Timing" he was on. If you consider the world as a ripe harvest, there is no timing in witnessing, its just then an everyday thing. If you consider our own comfort zone, then yes, there is a timing involved, but that is according to the individuals willingness to do it, not something that should be pushed off on to God, as if its God who decides when you should testify.
But testimony, witnessing, talking with others about this truth, only those who really want to do that are going to do it anyway. Once it becomes a way of life, like it was for your Grandpa, once it soaks into your very being, your going to do it anyway, unless you have too many introverted influences inside of you that will mute you.
Peace.