I saw this article today:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/13/pat-robertson-haiti-curse_n_422099.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/13/pat-robertson-haiti-curse_n_422099.html)
It made me really mad, Mr Robertson has so much exposure, what is the message there, God hates, God avenges, God kills children for the sins of their great great great grandfathers.
Does God curse those He has reconcilled?
Luk 13:2 Jesus answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, on whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the men who dwell in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
Sorry, I do have to input here, Repenting is part of the Pre-Cross requirement and we do not have to repent IN Grace.
Just to clarify Lee, the reason for me citing that bible verse is because Jesus indicates that those things that happened were not because of them being considered worse sinners than others. In other words, I agree with Jesus that Pat Robertson is incorrect in saying that Haiti, or any other place where a natural disaster takes place, is the result of God judging sin.
Ron
Okay I understand, thanks
So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?
I really dont know Jab. I reconcile aids, murder, war all as man's actions not God's, but earthquakes are called an act of God. Why are children dying slowly and painfully under the rubble in Haiti and there were Nazi war criminals who died old and in their sleep :dontknow:
God is no respector of persons, if He was actively causing earthquakes and the results of them but letting other non-believers live comfortable happy lives then He IS a repector of persons.
If God IS a respector of persons then He chooses prosperity for some and punishment for others.
In a way I want to think that God is not interventionist, because that removes blame from Him when really bad things happen.
:sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 09:15:49 PM
So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?
Life happens, what will we do with it?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 14, 2010, 09:52:28 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 09:15:49 PM
So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?
Life happens, what will we do with it?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I agree we need to be compassionate and help. So by "life happens", do you think it's random, accidental, judgment, cleansing? Or more so that we don't know, that's God's business [His thoughts/His ways] and we're supposed to just worry about "doing our part" - caring, helping, be salt and light? And trust Him to know what's best?
Maybe it's one of those things (that affects many areas of all our lives) that we won't fully understand "til the other side" and we are to remain obedient, faithful, trusting, loving, hoping all things, knowing that God hasn't lost control....we just may not fully understand the process (?), but that He will and is in the process of fixing it all, turning it ALL into good...
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 10:58:16 PM
I agree we need to be compassionate and help. So by "life happens", do you think it's random/accidental, punishment and/or cleansing? Or we don't know, that's God's business, and we're supposed to just worry about "doing our part" - caring, helping, be salt and light?
I don't believe anyone can truly know, those like Rat Pobertson who believes they know, actually don't.
While he is telling the hatians (I told ya so you pagan scum) The real world is helping the only way it can.
None of that is perfect and we will all hear the end times nut jobs come out, the government critics, blah blah blah, yet the ones who "did something about it" sent aid and pulled dead bodies out of rubble and risked their own lives looking for survivors.
Hope that helps.
These Scriptures genuinely have an application to this subject, and although 2 of the 3 will bring up offerings, don't limit them to that since there's an application here on this subject:
Mark 4, Galatians 6:6-10, 2Corinthians 9
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 09:15:49 PM
So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?
I guess my opinion on this is that God put the laws of physics into place and basically allows these types of things to happen according to those laws and probabilities. For example, scientists and meterologists had been saying for a long time before Katrina that a hurricane was likely to eventually hit New Orleans, and it would be devestating for the city based on the way it was laid out. Now I believe certain people, perhaps Pat Robertson, made similar comments about God possibly punishing New Orleans after the hurricane. Now if a hurricane hit Las Vegas or something else totally random and unexplainable happened, maybe I would buy into it somewhat...
Quote from: IceMan84 on January 15, 2010, 02:38:08 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 09:15:49 PM
So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?
I guess my opinion on this is that God put the laws of physics into place and basically allows these types of things to happen according to those laws and probabilities. For example, scientists and meterologists had been saying for a long time before Katrina that a hurricane was likely to eventually hit New Orleans, and it would be devestating for the city based on the way it was laid out. Now I believe certain people, perhaps Pat Robertson, made similar comments about God possibly punishing New Orleans after the hurricane. Now if a hurricane hit Las Vegas or something else totally random and unexplainable happened, maybe I would buy into it somewhat...
I was going to bring up New Orleans, too. As he most certainly had the same thing to say in 2005 after Katrina. Too bad the French Quarter
didn't flood. :mshock:
He said the same thing about The World Trade Centers. :Chinscratch:
It seems as if Pat Robertson blames EVERY "evil act" whether "natural disaster" or "acts of men" ON GOD, but claims that God is "doing it" ~TO~ those who "are" evil. :dunno2:
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:07:27 AM
Quote from: IceMan84 on January 15, 2010, 02:38:08 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2010, 09:15:49 PM
So, thoughts on how God views this? Truly "natural" disaster? Is God completely "hands off"? Does God have any role at all besides being a concerned Observer?
I guess my opinion on this is that God put the laws of physics into place and basically allows these types of things to happen according to those laws and probabilities. For example, scientists and meterologists had been saying for a long time before Katrina that a hurricane was likely to eventually hit New Orleans, and it would be devestating for the city based on the way it was laid out. Now I believe certain people, perhaps Pat Robertson, made similar comments about God possibly punishing New Orleans after the hurricane. Now if a hurricane hit Las Vegas or something else totally random and unexplainable happened, maybe I would buy into it somewhat...
I was going to bring up New Orleans, too. As he most certainly had the same thing to say in 2005 after Katrina. Too bad the French Quarter didn't flood. :mshock:
He said the same thing about The World Trade Centers. :Chinscratch:
It seems as if Pat Robertson blames EVERY "evil act" whether "natural disaster" or "acts of men" ON GOD, but claims that God is "doing it" ~TO~ those who "are" evil. :dunno2:
If something bad were to happen to Pat Robertson, I wonder if he would say it was God punishing him for something he had done wrong?
Not that I would wish anything bad on the man, but it sure makes you wonder.
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:25:40 AM
Not that I would wish anything bad on the man, but it sure makes you wonder.
Yeah, just to clarify...I didn't mean anything like that. I'm just saying that you can't contribute every bad thing that happens to God's punishment.
Quote from: IceMan84 on January 15, 2010, 03:29:27 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:25:40 AM
Not that I would wish anything bad on the man, but it sure makes you wonder.
Yeah, just to clarify...I didn't mean anything like that. I'm just saying that you can't contribute every bad thing that happens to God's punishment.
I wasn't thinking that you meant anything by that; I was worried about sounding like "I" might by agreeing with you. :happygrin:
Martin, "reaping what you sow"? "Reap to the wind, harvest the whirlwind"? Or something else?
If you are talking about sowing/reaping principle, isn't that a spiritual law God set in motion?
And if so, does He just watch it?
Where do you think "man plans his ways but God directs His steps" enters in with things like this?
Quote from: IceMan84 on January 15, 2010, 03:16:31 AM
If something bad were to happen to Pat Robertson, I wonder if he would say it was God punishing him for something he had done wrong?
No, it would be an attack from Satan.
Quote from: jabcat on January 15, 2010, 05:41:15 AMWhere do you think "man plans his ways but God directs His steps" enters in with things like this?
That's exactly what I'm talking about. One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. There's zero conflict or contest or contradiction between man planning his ways, or righteously planning according to His ways, and God giving the increase, or directing the steps of how quickly it produces whether instantaneous miracle or abiding by the laws of gradual spiritual growth talked about in Mark 4 and related passages.
He gives the increase ALWAYS, but did we sow what He said to sow, when He said to sow it, where He said to sow it, and did we listen to the Spirit of His Written Word for particulars? Or the moment He ministers the increase of the fruits (1Corinthians 3:5-10, 2Corinthians 9:10), is this liable to end in death because it wasn't His chosen what, where, and when that the Written Word and the Spirit of God were indicating?
There is no presupposition in the Scriptures of Him ever doing anything but blessing, but when He gives the increase, is it going to be the thousandfold you wanted, according to Deuteronomy 1:11, or the very thing coming up to maturity that you didn't want harvested? All He's gotta do is give the increase and if we didn't have our ground laid out correctly when the time of the latter rain came, it's not going to be what we wanted coming up.
It's possible to miss the time of harvest and let it rot in the field, when you're dealing with natural, corruptible seed, but thankfully a ready harvest in the Kingdom is incorruptible and it's right where it was left and the sickle can still be put into it with forgiveness, thanksgiving, praise, and obedience when He gives direction. God's devised the steps that each seed will go through to produce.
Man's job is to plant the seed (Mark 11:23, John 16:23, Romans 10:17), water it (Colossians 2:6-7), keep the weeds out of it (Mark 11:25-26), keep it in the light of the sun (2Corinthians 4:13, Colossians 3:16, 1John 2:5), and keep the pests out of it (2Corinthians 10:3-6, Ephesians 6:10-20, 1Peter 5:6-7), as Lord Jesus said in Mark 4, Luke 8, etc. and God directs the steps, i.e. "refuses to be mocked" in Galatians 6 and from the Written Word you reap life eonian (Isaiah 61:10-11) or from the carnal nature you reap corruption (Romans 8:6, Ephesians 2:12).
Doesn't change the fact that the Word will ultimately still give Him HIS harvest with how absolutely everything ends in world history with billions of Christ Jesuses that are deathless, which is where a lot of people misunderstand having a faith relationship with Christ Jesus, their High Priest, and presume that if we botch our own harvests that He'll never ultimately have His, which is nonsense, and where the divine Sovereignty really fits in, in the Scriptures rather than this idea I've seen kicked around that man doesn't harvest what he sows that I don't even respond to these days 'cause Galatians 6 says it's nothing but mockery to assert such a thing and I'm not God's defender, He's mine.
God's sowing and reaping as well, and He's getting what He planted Jesus for!! But this life can just get worse and worse and worse if His Word isn't in our heart and mouth 'til it displaces all of the previous junk.
The idea that God being no respector of persons means everybody gets treated the same regardless of their deeds fails to apprehend the nature of God. If he treated the wicked the same as the righteous then He would be unjust, and, as Martin pointed out, He would be violating His own principle of sowing and reaping. If you do wickedly He'll treat you the same as others that do wickedly. If you do well, He'll bless you as He does all who do His will. He, "renders to everyman according to their deeds." That is the kind of equanamity with which He treats people. Whoever comes to Him He will in no wise cast out.
Several times in Isaiah He says, "I am IEUE and there is none else." Nothing else exists! For the more literal, "Christ: the all in all," The Jerusalem Bible says, "There is only Christ and that is all there is." (Co 3:11) Not a quark, not even a tauon exists where it does but, ""out from Him, through Him, and into Him is the all." (Rm 11:36)
He also made the various components of each human. Scripture says, "It is God that works in you both to will and do of His good pleasure." We have wills to exercise within the parameters of His design.
Things look very different from the innermost, from the uttermost, from the lowest, from, "...up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending..." (Ep 1:21, CLT) or, viewed from the consumation, or end.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 15, 2010, 08:25:46 AMThings look very different from the innermost, from the uttermost, from the lowest, from, "...up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending..." (Ep 1:21, CLT) or, viewed from the consumation, or end.
That's where all of the differences are at. I've never seen a hyper Sovereignty perspective that wasn't a return to the spirit of bondage to fear from Galatians 4. And I've never seen anyone whose mind was renewed to their seating with Christ at God's right hand as a present day reality in Romans 5:17 and Ephesians 2 that denied the power of choice to the individual. Either the 7 places Christ shed His Blood are our redemption, including the crown of thorns and bleeding from the pores of His skin bought back our souls or we still look for another and have an incomplete work. Either His sufferings in Gethsemane undid our having been given over to futility in the Garden, or He died in vain.
Pat Robertson's comments are politically-oriented. They have nothing to do with God.
Blessings to all,
Brian
I haven't yet seen anybody in the popular media take on what Robertson said. It seems to be only they find it distasteful or offensive. Sometimes they provide an alternative view that the same things happen to everybody, no matter what they believe or how they behave. That is not how I view reality. Mostly the Hebrew Scriptures speak concerning the covenant with God in terms of what happens to you in this life, good or bad.
So did Haiti as a country make a pact with the devil? If they did shouldn't they repent? How can a Christian that recognizes the existence of a living God, real demons and evil spirits, as well as holy angels ever consent to the idea that such things are irrelevant? A sister who was like a relative to our family had an orphanage of over 40 children in Port a Prince. She was with the churches founded by a brother that went to the same seminary as my dad. There were over 10,000 people in those churches in Haiti. He had a vision of the clenched fist of a voodoo demon that was over Haiti. It held the money of Haiti tight and wouldn't let it go.
Of course, part of the "Christian" thing to do is get help to them as quickly as possible in the name of the Lord without quibbles about what they believe, which I understand Robertson and those with him are doing.
I've been thinking about this a lot.
My main beef with Roberston is that he has no authority to say that Haiti made a pact with the devil. where is he getting this information from God? If I were him I wouldnt listen to the voice in his head which he thinks is God. That voice (supposedly God) has told him in the past that:
- Terrorists will conduct a mass killing in the US in 2007- false
- George W Bush would enjoy victory after victory and that his social security reform would be approved- false
- Before the end of 2006 a Tsunami would crash into the west coast of USA- false
If God is telling Pat these thigs, God is a liar. Or Pat is a liar, or mislead. Either way he is a false prophet.
He has no business speaking on behalf of God when he has taken His name in vain so many times putting flase words in God's mouth.
The Haitian crisis is OUR falt not God's. The fact tht the world is pouring so much money into Haiti now shows that those resources existed all along. God provided them. We knew something like this could happen. If we had given this financial support two years ago and put it into infrastructor this earthquake would not have had such a devestating effect.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 18, 2010, 08:11:06 PM
I haven't yet seen anybody in the popular media take on what Robertson said. It seems to be only they find it distasteful or offensive. Sometimes they provide an alternative view that the same things happen to everybody, no matter what they believe or how they behave. That is not how I view reality. Mostly the Hebrew Scriptures speak concerning the covenant with God in terms of what happens to you in this life, good or bad.
How can a Christian that recognizes the existence of a living God, real demons and evil spirits, as well as holy angels ever consent to the idea that such things are irrelevant? ...... vision of the clenched fist of a voodoo demon that was over Haiti. It held the money of Haiti tight and wouldn't let it go.
Of course, part of the "Christian" thing to do is get help to them as quickly as possible in the name of the Lord without quibbles about what they believe, which I understand Robertson and those with him are doing.
Thanks James for coming back to this. I've been thinking since yours and Martin's posts, if we're talking about the principle of reaping and sowing, then might it be said that Haiti as a country (and culture) is reaping what they've sown? And isn't that the bottom line of what Pat was saying, i.e., they don't honor God, but as Christians, we're going to help them?
I don't know where Pat got his information, and I also am leery of false prophecy. But maybe this wasn't prophecy. Maybe it was more historical information. I DON'T KNOW, but it may be worth considering and investigating further.
Haiti was the poorest coutry in the western hemesphere BEFORE this thing happened. Was that them reaping judgement too? Or when they were take as slaves? 83 % of the population are christian! These people are living in poverty and so can't afoard to build houses that will withstand a strong earth quake. This is God's judgement??? Haiti are our poor neighbours? who deserves to be punished? Haiti- too poor to help themselves or the developed world which is rich enough that we could have helped long ago?
To say that the Father rains judgement on a nation with an earthquake but the Son compells us to care for those victims seems like a house divided to me.
:2c:
I'll believe Pat Robertsons point of view when I see him running for cover.
I've certainly been under God's chastening rod precisely for what wickedness of mine I knew full well. I also have had the protection of the Lord in dangerous situations. Yet, there is much, both good and bad, for which I have no explanation.
When it comes to Haiti I can't say God has revealed much to me in particular. With people near to me and my family ministering there it has been a matter placed before the Lord in prayer for many years. The only thing I feel some confidence over is they need to abandon demonic voudou with its graceless false values and bondage to fear and turn to the Good Shepherd with all of their hearts.
That would be irrelevant if God does nothing for those who repent and serve Him.
QuoteJn 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jn 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
The manifestations of the works of God are through the ones who help in this situation.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 19, 2010, 12:06:33 AM
I've certainly been under God's chastening rod precisely for what wickedness of mine I knew full well. I also have had the protection of the Lord in dangerous situations. Yet, there is much, both good and bad, for which I have no explanation.
That would be irrelevant if God does nothing for those who repent and serve Him.
In relation to the quote above, as well as other things said in the thread, such as the John 9:3 verse. Reaping/sowing - scriptural principle - only applies in some situations, not in others? God blessing and protecting for faithfulness and obedience - does He or not? God bringing an experience of evil to teach and bring judgments - does He or not? Do we not experience [punishment/consequences/wrath] that we may have "earned" or deserved? OR, as the OP says (I'll word it a little differently according to the way I understand it - God has reconciled Himself to all, but all are not yet reconciled to God [not all called/chosen yet]) - then is it the belief of some that God has nothing to do with any consequences/punishment/chastistments - that it's "life" and God just doesn't get all that directly involved? All bad things are just "the devil" and God only wants to fix it?
I don't know, I'm not there. But I've read even many/most Haitians that call themselves Christians mix in practices with "the spirits"/voodoo with their Catholicism. Although we are to know the fruits (I'd suggest voodoo's not the best thing to mix with Christianity) still, I have my own sins I battle and I cannot judge Haiti or one single Haitian. Maybe it comes back to the earlier thoughts, that sometimes we don't know for sure and our job is to love and help. As with many things, I believe it's a great big subject - and there's probably been 500 books written trying to explain all this from 500 different philosophical and spiritual angles. I sure don't understand all the reasons why, and I believe everyone has pain and trials - and obviously, the Haitians are in extreme pain and need right now. I believe God has good plans and He will help us and He wants us to help others.
In the end, I think it's right - "what does God want each of us to do to help?"
Does God curse those he has reconcilled?
I just re-read the above line.
Do you think there may be a difference between (and it may be hard to know) what's a curse vs. what's discipline, or correction, or cleansing, or consequences, etc...? What we may view and call something, may be our own perspective from our own limited perception and understanding - when God may be up to something and have an entirely different outcome in mind than what we may have imagined.
It's a thought.
cures -- what heals and makes whole
curse -- evil causeing cures
in the course of this world
the curs licked Lazarus's sores
Job was sure of his righteousness. God didn't say he was wrong. Job's friends that tried to justify God, saying He wouldn't have smitten Job unless he did something to deserve it, God said they spoke wrong about Him.
devil
evil
vil ("vile")
il ("ill")
l (sounds like, "hell")
There is also a serious fault line that runs through or near haiti, sooner or later it's gonna shift, don't matter who's good or bad.
:cloud9: Natural disasters, such as the tidal wave that hit the mostly Moslem countries, do release people from the darkness of their own making in two ways; by death of the body, and some from seeing the Lord in action in His people, who are usually there with relief efforts faster than the bottle-necked government's red tape brigades. Operation Blessing, I read, was at Katrina before anyone else arrived. What the enemy means for evil, the Lord means for good. Blessings....
who sinned ,this man or his parents?neither but this is a good oppurtunity to show the glory of God
Now this is what I want to see happen....THE EARTH GROANS FOR THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS TO BE SEEN!!!
When will the glory fill the earth!?When is God going to release his sons and daughters!?