a few reasons why I hold UR for a possible interpretation of the bible

[Taffy]

Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?

"If" I've accepted Christ . . .why then would I be exposed to the lake of Fire?  Isn't the act of inviting Christ in, over-riding the necessity for purging sin out?  I'm not saying that it's okay sin remains . .I'm saying . . .Jesus went to the cross and suffered on our behalf.  So by accepting him in my life . . . why would God then put me through the lake of fire?  How can he purge out what he no longer sees in me?

Like I said, Nat ..One fire, two purposes,one which cleanes through the acceptance of His Blood via faith and Grace,the other  being those who have yet to pass through it.either via Grace or at another time ie ...LOF,...willie proposes that we are In this LAKE NOW,..As we are In Christ NOW, christ is the lake of Fire ,he is  also the Blood\fire which purges through Grace,...those in him no need to go through it twice... ,..I just see a connection to One fire, be it now, or come another for those who may not be cleansed during this Life....,again I dont see the picture as Clear as I would like...but i see it surely all connected to the Cross,...to put it simple..One fire One purpose...TO CLEANSE..either or..

are ya making head or tail of this...

[Nathan]

I think we're saying the same things on this.  God is a consuming fire . . .the purpose of the cross was to redeem us back to God apart from the law.  Sacrifices consumed by fire, yet Moses, a burning tree,  not consumed through destruction, but purification the fire continued to burn.  You could actually say the lake of fire is much like the 1000 year reign . .it's not a place or time, but a person.

You can either come through the cross of Christ . .or through the fire of God.  One is by way of grace, the other by way of necessity.  You could even say force.  I'm sure those that rejected Christ would also reject the lake in the end.  They've become adversaries to God's over all purpose of redeeming us back to him. . .same pattern as when Peter was also rebuked by Jesus.  Our limited minds can't see the overall purpose of God, all we can see is what's in it for us.  If it doesn't bring pleasure to my flesh, my flesh doesn't want it . .and yes I'm rambling.

[Taffy]

I think we're saying the same things on this.  God is a consuming fire . . .the purpose of the cross was to redeem us back to God apart from the law.  Sacrifices consumed by fire, yet Moses, a burning tree,  not consumed through destruction, but purification the fire continued to burn.  You could actually say the lake of fire is much like the 1000 year reign . .it's not a place or time, but a person.

You can either come through the cross of Christ . .or through the fire of God.  One is by way of grace, the other by way of necessity.  You could even say force.  I'm sure those that rejected Christ would also reject the lake in the end.  They've become adversaries to God's over all purpose of redeeming us back to him. . .same pattern as when Peter was also rebuked by Jesus.  Our limited minds can't see the overall purpose of God, all we can see is what's in it for us.  If it doesn't bring pleasure to my flesh, my flesh doesn't want it . .and yes I'm rambling.

I believe we are Nat...I admit my wording is not always the best :icon_flower:

[pneuma]

Jesus went to the cross and suffered on our behalf.

Hi Nathan and Taffy, for the most part me and Taffy see this alike, but there might be a slight difference in the way we see Jesus suffering on our behalf. (Taffy let me know whether we see this part differently)

For myself I don't see Jesus suffering on our behalf as a substitute so that we don't have to suffer. I see Him suffering for us as a pattern to show us the way one walks into perfection. If His suffering was for us as a substitute why are we told to take up our cross and follow Him? Why do we need to confess our sins?
Jesus said you shall be baptized with my baptism and drink of my cup, does this not tell us that we to must suffer as He did? Are we not to be living sacrifices?

I don't believe He suffered death so that we don't have to rather to show us the way.
   

So by accepting him in my life . . . why would God then put me through the lake of fire?

No one goes though the lake of fire until AFTER the great white throne judgment so everyone who is in the fire has had Jesus and the Father revealed to them.

Everyone must come by way of the cross, and the LAW is that which produces a cross in everyone's life.

The LAW reveals sin for what it is correct?

So the reason those who have not excepted Jesus as Lord and saviour is hurt by the fire is because they see themselves through the eyes of righteousness and become undone.
Those who know the Lord are not hurt when they see themselves through the eyes of righteousness because they know that Jesus is their mediator between them and the Father. It is this knowledge that takes away the sting of death. 

How can he purge out what he no longer sees in me?

Just because God looks at the blood on our doorpost and lintel does not mean we are purged from our sin. His death only reconciled us, His life is what purges sin out of us.
IMO this is why everyone must go through the fire, for if God looking at the blood on the doorpost and lintel was all that was needed to keep people out of the fire NO ONE would go through it at all, for it was while we were yet sinner that He died for the WHOLE WORLD.

God bless

[Taffy]

For myself I don't see Jesus suffering on our behalf as a substitute so that we don't have to suffer. I see Him suffering for us as a pattern to show us the way one walks into perfection. If His suffering was for us as a substitute why are we told to take up our cross and follow Him? Why do we need to confess our sins?
Jesus said you shall be baptized with my baptism and drink of my cup, does this not tell us that we to must suffer as He did? Are we not to be living sacrifices?

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. 

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:


Ideed we suffer persecution for the Cross, encouraged  not to be offended because of it.

1Th 3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Mar 4:17  And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

1Thes 3:3 That no man should be moved by THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that WE are APPOINTED thereunto.

2Titus 1:18 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of THE AFFLICTIONS of the gospel according to the power of God;

YES Scott through , suffering,tribulation ,afflicitions and persecutions

[Nathan]

I agree that there is a suffering that we go through, but what suffering are we talking about?  I used to fast all the time . .that was suffering.  How much suffering are we talking about?  Who measures it?  If Jesus says his yoke is easy and his burden is light . .then why didn't he also say there is suffering to be had?  Is the suffering continuous?  Or . .could it be a spiritual application between soul and mind?  I see us as the gates of pearl in Revelation . . .and if you check out what a pearl is . . you see that there is a suffering involved.  Jesus did say in this world you will have tribulation . .but  . .be of good cheer, I have over come the world. . .  So . . .which is it?  Physical suffering?  Or the soul suffering?

As far as "taking up your cross" . . .I've learned that "take up" is a sailor's term for one who pulls in the anchor.  It's the burden of the cross that has me tethered to the things of the earth, but the cry Jesus is making to us is not telling me I have my own cross to bear . . .but that it's time to pull up the anchor on my own selfishness and follow.  . . take on the same image as Christ. 

It's all in what perspective you are in.

I'm not saying suffering is not a part of it . . .I'm saying there comes a time when there is no more suffering . . .unless you really enjoy being in it :bgdance:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nathan,

I do not believe there is a measurement for suffering, we each are unique and travel this journey together but God imparts to each of us individually.   I cannot see my life and look at someone elses and determine in what manner they have really suffered.

I suffered in a sense when I married my wife (no not the marriage, LOL) because  my family judged the reason I was getting married by what they wanted to believe and didn't care about my Love or comittment to her. (27 years this year.)   But, even if I could, I would not turn back the clock and not suffer if it meant I could not be with my wife.

I know his yoke is light because I accept the pain of the flesh that I cannot subdue till I am dead from this earth.  He has brought me to be willing to feel alone knowing that his will is done through me.  I would not turn back the clock and change my life one bit because all I have went through has taught me what real joy is.   This does not mean in my flesh I am happy go lucky all the time.  Even Jesus, the perfect example, was not physically happy 100% of the time, but he knew spiritual joy from knowing the truth.

Jesus the savior of the world was alone in his darkest hour, yet his yoke was light because he know his purpose was of the father.   I'm not in any way comparing myself to Jesus of course.


But then we hear of missionaries in other countries that suffer more greatly physically than anyone I know probbaly ever will, at least in the US.   But do they suffer truly in Jesus name if they are running around preaching eternal torment?

Just a thought anyway.

[Nathan]

I like your post.  I personally think . . .not opposed to you at all, but I thought I'd also add that the suffering, in my opinion, is not meant to be self-inflicted.  Self-inflicted suffering leads to self-righteousness.  The suffering we do experience is directly related to our commitment to Christ.  It's all to our benefit.  "All" good things come together to those that love the Lord. . . Just beliving in universal reconciliation creates suffering for those who have friends and family members that are still trapped in their own thinking.

Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace . . .even though he "is" peace, he came to bring division . .however, just like in Genesis, when he divided, it always ended in multipication . . .God's math is so cool.

[pneuma]

So . . .which is it? Physical suffering? Or the soul suffering?

Hi Nathan I also see it as soul suffering.

As far as "taking up your cross" . . .I've learned that "take up" is a sailor's term for one who pulls in the anchor. It's the burden of the cross that has me tethered to the things of the earth, but the cry Jesus is making to us is not telling me I have my own cross to bear . . .but that it's time to pull up the anchor on my own selfishness and follow. . . take on the same image as Christ.

It might just be your wording Nathan, but I see it as ONE cross, the same cross our Lord bore we to are to bear, the total denial of self is part of that cross.

I'm saying there comes a time when there is no more suffering

I agree, but only see this after the manchild has been brought forth from the womb, I can only speak for myself but I am still in travail, for the manifestation of the sons of God, to which Paul also said he awaited.

Just beliving in universal reconciliation creates suffering for those who have friends and family members that are still trapped in their own thinking.

It sure does Bro, both my parents are preachers that believe in eternal torment and I have experienced the suffering you mentioned above for the last 30 years, but the seed God planted in me so long ago has in the last 2 years started to produce fruit, for 3 of my 4 sisters now believe in the salvation of all and just about 2 months ago when speaking with my mom she said she was now leaning towards the salvation of all, so joy does come in the morning. It is an interesting walk, this walk we walk.

God bless

I do not believe there is a measurement for suffering, we each are unique and travel this journey together but God imparts to each of us individually. I cannot see my life and look at someone elses and determine in what manner they have really suffered.

I suffered in a sense when I married my wife (no not the marriage, LOL) because my family judged the reason I was getting married by what they wanted to believe and didn't care about my Love or comittment to her. (27 years this year.) But, even if I could, I would not turn back the clock and not suffer if it meant I could not be with my wife.

Hi Paul this sounds a lot like my experience, coming on 27 years for me and the wife also. My wife's dad even said to me if the marriage falls apart in the first 5 years it would all be my fault, I smiled at him and said that ok I got broad shoulders. My wife's aunt after meeting me told my wife to have an abortion and dump me.

We could have let these things destroy, but they actually strengthened us, when you go to war with someone (on the same side) it actually strengthens the bond between each other.

God bless