- the dualism between hell and paradise is never written about in the OT - if ET is true it would be kinda cruel from God not to have warned of it
- it's written a couple of times that God doesn't entertain His wrath forever - ET means endless wrath, and therefor is incompatible with God's character
- Jesus died a cruel death on a cross and knows how dreadful pain can be - it makes little sense that He would condemn somebody to endless pain, if He is indeed the loving Saviour we all know Him to be
- it makes little sense that God veiling the truth from the jews would mean that they have no chance to get saved - the pharisees were evil, alright, but the jews of later times should not be blamed for their father's sins - and the pharisees themselves, well, Jesus prayed for them
- if God cannot tolerate or deal with sin at all, He could have ended the human experiment with Adam and Eve - but God let them enter the world and have children. If UR is true, God simply chose us all to live forever and that's why He put Adam and Eve on the world, for them to have children.
I could think of some more, but all for now. Thanks for reading.
How about this one
If people are to live in torment forever, then Christ must be in the torment with them, for it is only in Christ that people have eternal life.
Either that or those who believe in eternal torment must believe that people can have eternal life outside of Christ. But you won't find a scripture that states such.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on June 30, 2008, 09:04:34 PM
- the dualism between hell and paradise is never written about in the OT - if ET is true it would be kinda cruel from God not to have warned of it
- it's written a couple of times that God doesn't entertain His wrath forever - ET means endless wrath, and therefor is incompatible with God's character
This is why a debate with a believer of ET typically ends up with them saying that Mankind is responsible for his own fate.
The assertion is that Gods Love is always there but we of our own free will must choose to accept that Love, and if we do not, it is not God that punishes us or who sends his unending wrath upon us, but it is the person who suffers the consequenses of rejecting Christ so we bring "hell" upon ourselves forever.
This point of view also contradicts numerous scriptures, not to mention the fact that if God desires that ALL mankind be saved and Man can refuse that desire then man is given greater power than God.
We do choose to believe in the sense that it is each of us individually that comes to believe. John 6:44 is the means by which that choice or that acceptance will come about.
Ok let me start that I agree with your points. Not 100% but that's just because I'm not fully UR.
Below I will 'debunk' your points to fire up this thread is a positive way. At least I hope so.
Quote- the dualism between hell and paradise is never written about in the OT - if ET is true it would be kinda cruel from God not to have warned of it
He gave a lot of warnings about sin. He set several strong examples. One of them is the flood.
Quote- it's written a couple of times that God doesn't entertain His wrath forever - ET means endless wrath, and therefor is incompatible with God's character
What if in His opinion, whatever the reason, it's the only way to go?
He also could let all murderers and idolator directly into heaven without any form of correction.
He also could give everyone eternal life right now.
But He has His reasons not to do so.
Quote- Jesus died a cruel death on a cross and knows how dreadful pain can be - it makes little sense that He would condemn somebody to endless pain, if He is indeed the loving Saviour we all know Him to be
Hell is so bad, God wants to go to great length to let repent people before death.
Quote- it makes little sense that God veiling the truth from the jews would mean that they have no chance to get saved - the pharisees were evil, alright, but the jews of later times should not be blamed for their father's sins - and the pharisees themselves, well, Jesus prayed for them
That doesn't mean everyone gets of the hook. Everyone on this forum has at least 1 Bible and is fully aware of the concequences of sin.
Quote- if God cannot tolerate or deal with sin at all, He could have ended the human experiment with Adam and Eve - but God let them enter the world and have children. If UR is true, God simply chose us all to live forever and that's why He put Adam and Eve on the world, for them to have children.
Pehaps He never planned the Heaven be a busy place.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2008, 03:44:26 PM
Quote- the dualism between hell and paradise is never written about in the OT - if ET is true it would be kinda cruel from God not to have warned of it
He gave a lot of warnings about sin. He set several strong examples. One of them is the flood.
But no warnings of eternal pain and suffering at any level.
Quote- it's written a couple of times that God doesn't entertain His wrath forever - ET means endless wrath, and therefor is incompatible with God's character
Quote
What if in His opinion, whatever the reason, it's the only way to go?
He also could let all murderers and idolator directly into heaven without any form of correction.
He also could give everyone eternal life right now.
But He has His reasons not to do so.
I can agree with this, Gods character can be questionable simply by creating beings and subjecting them to evil against our will which the bible does say happened. So our opinion of his character is subject to how we feel which doesn't matter. Biblically, we must demonstrate what God is doing. What he is doing is creating mankind into his image.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2008, 03:44:26 PM
He gave a lot of warnings about sin. He set several strong examples. One of them is the flood.
We might be inclined to liken the flood to God sending people to hell, but what does God liken the flood to?
Isaiah 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
Quote from: bobf on August 27, 2008, 04:38:33 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2008, 03:44:26 PM
He gave a lot of warnings about sin. He set several strong examples. One of them is the flood.
We might be inclined to liken the flood to God sending people to hell, but what does God liken the flood to?
Isaiah 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
YEEHAAA
awesome scripture bob
thanks for posting
Quote from: bobf on August 27, 2008, 04:38:33 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 27, 2008, 03:44:26 PM
He gave a lot of warnings about sin. He set several strong examples. One of them is the flood.
We might be inclined to liken the flood to God sending people to hell, but what does God liken the flood to?
Isaiah 54:6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
Amen Bob, :icon_flower: Further More, The wicked are Those who Under The WATER,( flood= WATERS beneath) Psa. 18:4, Psa. 17:13 and 14 )symbolically meaning those dwelling in the Old C, being those who are
DEAD to HIM,...oppossed to Those by Faith dwelling in HIS REST rise above the WATERS called heaven.
shown here in Genesis.., shown equally DIVIDING THE night( CALLED DARKNESS) FROM THE LIGHT,AGAIN SYMBOLIC OF two Covenants
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the
QuoteSpirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God
called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day .
The flood is likened for mine as the OLD C...its served its Purpose as Tutor to lead One to Christ ,this again is Shown In Math as Christ WALKING above the sea ( the waters ABOVE) encouraging those Like Peter to do Like wise...oh yea of LITTLE FAITH.
AGAIN unto the JEWS who to were UNDER the waters...by faith we rise to the the ABOVE, IF ONE REMAINS iN THE OLD THEY TO LIKE IN THE FLOOD will die in their sins....
Jhn 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jhn 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Jhn 8:23 And he said unto them,
Ye are from beneath; I am from above:
ye are of this world;
I am not of this world. Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins
The wicked part of everyman is the carnal mind\FLESH, The LOF is the Place where that Flesh will perish so the spirit can LIVE.
Another lesson learned. Rub against the hairs (or whatever the expression is in English) and you get the best answers. :thumbsup:
Debunker debunked. Fortunately!
bobf: Great quote!
(No more water. Only fire :laughing7: )
Paul
QuoteI can agree with this, Gods character can be questionable simply by creating beings and subjecting them to evil against our will which the bible does say happened. So our opinion of his character is subject to how we feel which doesn't matter. Biblically, we must demonstrate what God is doing. What he is doing is creating mankind into his image.
I got kinda flamed in a thread about 'image' (no harm done boys and girls)
As I understood image was about soul and spirit.
If the image is also character then ET can be very real. There are enough people who would have great pleasure in roasting others... :sigh:
White Wings,
I agree, the issue of ET is not about what we feel about its justice or fairness or otherwise when it comes to a sovereign God.
You will not find the word character in the greek or hebrew, that I am aware of. If it is there, I do not believe it will pertain to the image of God. In fact of several translations I did a search in, the word character is not even in them at all. If a bible translation does contain that word I would question it's accuracy.
Gods image has nothing to do with character, because character is primarily a point of view based on feeling and perception within a predefined set of parameters.
Someone of poor character to me, may be of good character to another.
When it comes to God, someone saying his character is evil or somone saying his character is good will be based on how they feel about the actions they use to determine that character.
The wicked part of everyman is the carnal mind\FLESH, The LOF is the Place where that Flesh will perish so the spirit can LIVE
By "flesh" are you refering to the physical body? or the carnality "within" the mind?
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 05:56:15 PM
The wicked part of everyman is the carnal mind\FLESH, The LOF is the Place where that Flesh will perish so the spirit can LIVE
By "flesh" are you refering to the physical body? or the carnality "within" the mind?
the latter bro..the carnal mind that is enmity, but both Mean the same scripture wise., when paul refers to the flesh its the carnality of the MIND.... :icon_flower:
Taaaaaf!!!! I know you know!!! sigh . . .but it sounded like Paul was referring to the former. (Raise your hand next time!) :grin:
I just edited that Last post..as when Paul refers to the flesh Its easy to think of it being our bodies,..but the flesh is the enmity of the Mind..same thing :icon_flower: call it either
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
As the LOF IS the Death of Death , then thats where this dead mind will be purged\cleansed by fire,..the result being the death of the carnal mind
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
Gee Nat..I thought that was another Thread...I see ONE FIRE Christ with different functions ,Those now are Purged through His Blood,Fire, therefore their Carnal minds are No more ,that is those in HIM, our minds created New....the function of the Lake is again, the fire which too purges also the Mind....so the twenty Dollar question is are they The same ...., well One would say
QuoteYES,
(without the fear of Dear Craig jumping in to post what he believes.).. God will be all and One has to be Cleansed either way, and thats through HIM.....
Be Interested On Pneuma sthoughts to this also,
blessings
Quote from: Taffy on August 27, 2008, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
Gee Nat..I thought that was another Thread...I see ONE FIRE Christ with different functions ,Those now are Purged through His Blood,Fire, therefore their Carnal minds are No more ,that is those in HIM, our minds created New....the function of the Lake is again, the fire which too purges also the Mind....so the twenty Dollar question is are they The same ...., well One would say QuoteYES,
(without the fear of Dear Craig jumping in to post what he believes.).. God will be all and One has to be Cleansed either way, and thats through HIM.....
Be Interested On Pneuma sthoughts to this also,
blessings
here's a question for ya,
I agree the mind is what is purged. But if one "physically" dies "in their sin", not having ears opened in this "physical life", and has to face lake of fire in "the next life" to have their "
mind" purged then;
how does the mind live in the next age?? the mind, as i see it is a result of "physical body-brain functioning while spirit of life is in it. It functions in the "natural"". So to be purged in the next life, will the person be resurrected into another"/person/physical body; to go through the purging of the mind that is dependent upon that body?? as if the resurrection to judgement is a resurrection to "natural" again; ie; natural to natural; then spiritual after purged??
or is the "mind" separate from the "physical body" and it is purged without the "physical body" wakening; meaning the mind doesn't need a brain/matter??
hope this makes sense.
Laren
Quote from: laren
how does the mind live in the next age?? the mind, as i see it is a
result of "physical body-brain functioning while spirit of life is in it. It functions in the "natural"". So to be purged in the next life, will the person be resurrected into another"/person/physical body; to go through the purging of the mind that is dependent upon that body?? as if the resurrection to judgement is a resurrection to "natural" again; ie; natural to natural; then spiritual after purged??
or is the "mind" separate from the "physical body" and it is purged without the "physical body" wakening; meaning the mind doesn't need a brain/matter??
I have always believed that we would be raised with a physical body just like Christ was. Paul said we would
put on our immortality. Paul said (2Cor. 5:2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring
to be clothed upon with our house. It sounds like these bodies will just be
changed from mortal to immortal. In verse 4 Paul says "not for that we would be unclothed, but
clothed upon, that mortality might be
swallowed up of life.I have wondered about this verse. (2Cor. 5:10) For we must
all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may
receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Wouldn't we have to be mortal to do this? Also, do you think this is being done now in this life?
CHB
Quote from: laren on August 27, 2008, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: Taffy on August 27, 2008, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
Gee Nat..I thought that was another Thread...I see ONE FIRE Christ with different functions ,Those now are Purged through His Blood,Fire, therefore their Carnal minds are No more ,that is those in HIM, our minds created New....the function of the Lake is again, the fire which too purges also the Mind....so the twenty Dollar question is are they The same ...., well One would say QuoteYES,
(without the fear of Dear Craig jumping in to post what he believes.).. God will be all and One has to be Cleansed either way, and thats through HIM.....
Be Interested On Pneuma sthoughts to this also,
blessings
here's a question for ya,
I agree the mind is what is purged. But if one "physically" dies "in their sin", not having ears opened in this "physical life", and has to face lake of fire in "the next life" to have their "mind" purged then;
how does the mind live in the next age?? the mind, as i see it is a result of "physical body-brain functioning while spirit of life is in it. It functions in the "natural"". So to be purged in the next life, will the person be resurrected into another"/person/physical body; to go through the purging of the mind that is dependent upon that body?? as if the resurrection to judgement is a resurrection to "natural" again; ie; natural to natural; then spiritual after purged??
or is the "mind" separate from the "physical body" and it is purged without the "physical body" wakening; meaning the mind doesn't need a brain/matter??
hope this makes sense.
Laren
trust you Laren :icon_flower:...
do you know...the more I Understand the more I come to see the NOW....But for sure, i dont have all the answers,
For some time ,ive see the Lake as the Cross Bro, Those who pass through It are those who come From LAW,...IN ESSENCE , thats what Im think im trying to say , ,,, it doesnt speak of those OUTSIDE,..as of yet..even thou in truth all men are under law if they Know it or not
I understand that HE will have Mercy on all, and that One day, every Knee shall bow,and that HE WILL BE GLORIFIED, and HAVE mercy on all..I really dont see the NEED of a REPEAT of another physical existance to have The soul ( mind and heart) Purged...might seem nuts, but for now thats what im beginning to understand...I normally dont say anything Unless I see and Understand ,the Pictures set within my mind, so, before I get a Kick In, this is very much off the Cuff,as I understand the other propositions which can, and will be made, been there got many a T-shirt.
I see the Purpose of all who LIVE in HIM now, to be for HIS GLORY,..as was Pharoah raised for the same Purpose..., tis HIS ball game, we are just players , set within HIS PARK,....
hope this gives you something to dwell on to where Im being led Bro...and again this is Not set In stone,..Im speaking very much off the cuff.
Quote from: Taffy on August 27, 2008, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
Gee Nat..I thought that was another Thread...I see ONE FIRE Christ with different functions ,Those now are Purged through His Blood,Fire, therefore their Carnal minds are No more ,that is those in HIM, our minds created New....the function of the Lake is again, the fire which too purges also the Mind....so the twenty Dollar question is are they The same ...., well One would say QuoteYES,
(without the fear of Dear Craig jumping in to post what he believes.).. God will be all and One has to be Cleansed either way, and thats through HIM.....
Be Interested On Pneuma sthoughts to this also,
blessings
Hi Taffy, I agree ONE FIRE, TWO ASPECTS.
The ONE FIRE both refines and destroys.
To me it is the FIRE of the LAW, it is ONE LAW and it is ordained unto LIFE, but is also a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ, for the LAW was given for the salvation of the soul. Ro.7:10 & 2Co.3:7 & Gal.3:24 & Ps.19:7
When the soul sins it transgresses the LAW that God is writing in our hearts and minds, thus the DEATH aspect of the FIRE has power to hurt us and causes us to cry out in our torment as Paul did when he said ``
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?``Ro.7:24
When the soul is obedient unto the LAW, DEATH has no power over it and it is not hurt of it.
If we obey the spirit (the law is spiritual) we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, but if we listen to the flesh the DEATH is what is promised and Death is what we get.
The tree of knowledge of good and evil is the LAW, If Adam had of listened to God he would not have suffered Death, but as Adam disobeyed God and ate he fell from the state of grace he had and came under the ministration of DEATH. And what is it that the ministration of DEATH does? It is our SCHOOLMASTER that leads us to CHRIST.
Everyone who falls from grace is UNDER THE SCHOOLMASTER/DEATH whether they be sinner or saint. And the only way out of DEATH is total obedience to the spirit (the law is spiritual) that God is writing or written within our hearts and mind.
Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
God bless
Quote from: pneuma on August 27, 2008, 09:44:07 PM
Quote from: Taffy on August 27, 2008, 06:59:07 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
Gee Nat..I thought that was another Thread...I see ONE FIRE Christ with different functions ,Those now are Purged through His Blood,Fire, therefore their Carnal minds are No more ,that is those in HIM, our minds created New....the function of the Lake is again, the fire which too purges also the Mind....so the twenty Dollar question is are they The same ...., well One would say QuoteYES,
(without the fear of Dear Craig jumping in to post what he believes.).. God will be all and One has to be Cleansed either way, and thats through HIM.....
Be Interested On Pneuma sthoughts to this also,
blessings
Hi Taffy, I agree ONE FIRE, TWO ASPECTS.
The ONE FIRE both refines and destroys.
To me it is the FIRE of the LAW, it is ONE LAW and it is ordained unto LIFE, but is also a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ, for the LAW was given for the salvation of the soul. Ro.7:10 & 2Co.3:7 & Gal.3:24 & Ps.19:7
When the soul sins it transgresses the LAW that God is writing in our hearts and minds, thus the DEATH aspect of the FIRE has power to hurt us and causes us to cry out in our torment as Paul did when he said ``O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?``Ro.7:24
When the soul is obedient unto the LAW, DEATH has no power over it and it is not hurt of it.
If we obey the spirit (the law is spiritual) we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh, but if we listen to the flesh the DEATH is what is promised and Death is what we get.
The tree of knowledge of good and evil is the LAW, If Adam had of listened to God he would not have suffered Death, but as Adam disobeyed God and ate he fell from the state of grace he had and came under the ministration of DEATH. And what is it that the ministration of DEATH does? It is our SCHOOLMASTER that leads us to CHRIST.
Everyone who falls from grace is UNDER THE SCHOOLMASTER/DEATH whether they be sinner or saint. And the only way out of DEATH is total obedience to the spirit (the law is spiritual) that God is writing or written within our hearts and mind.
Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
God bless
Thanks for your Input Scott :thumbsup:
Quote
I have always believed that we would be raised with a physical body just like Christ was. Paul said we would put on our immortality. Paul said (2Cor. 5:2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house. It sounds like these bodies will just be changed from mortal to immortal. In verse 4 Paul says "not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I have wondered about this verse. (2Cor. 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Wouldn't we have to be mortal to do this? Also, do you think this is being done now in this life?
Charlotte...isnt Judgment the Cross?....men to die , then Judgment, that is .laying down the Carnal Mind ,be Born anew in HIM?
Moving from the Physical Tabernacle to the SPIRITUAL one, being HIM who Clothes us In righteousness, to Move from this PHYSICAL body to be present with HIM in the NEW?
ALL men are called to to Judgment, even those in HIM are Judged NOW, we too can slip away...be it those GOOD or BAD?
Quote from: Taffy on August 27, 2008, 11:17:16 PM
Quote
I have always believed that we would be raised with a physical body just like Christ was. Paul said we would put on our immortality. Paul said (2Cor. 5:2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house. It sounds like these bodies will just be changed from mortal to immortal. In verse 4 Paul says "not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I have wondered about this verse. (2Cor. 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Wouldn't we have to be mortal to do this? Also, do you think this is being done now in this life?
Charlotte...isnt Judgment the Cross?....men to die , then Judgment, that is .laying down the Carnal Mind ,be Born anew in HIM?
Moving from the Physical Tabernacle to the SPIRITUAL one, being HIM who Clothes us In righteousness, to Move from this PHYSICAL body to be present with HIM in the NEW?
ALL men are called to to Judgment, even those in HIM are Judged NOW, we too can slip away...be it those GOOD or BAD?
Could be you are right Taffy, I just don't know. I am still trying to figure it all out.
Will we all stand before the judgment seat, or is this happening now? (Rev. 20:12) And I saw the
dead, {these people are dead, whether spiritual, physical, or both, I do not know.} small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:... {I presume law books...and another book was opened, which is the book of life:... Christ... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The way I understand this is,...this is talking about those under the law, those who are dead. Since they are judged according to their works, it must be speaking of those who are law keepers. we under grace have no works of our own, all of our works are those of Christ. I do believe the book of Revelation was written to Israel.
I would like opinions on this.
CHB
QuoteThe way I understand this is,...this is talking about those under the law, those who are dead. Since they are judged according to their works, it must be speaking of those who are law keepers. we under grace have no works of our own, all of our works are those of Christ. I do believe the book of Revelation was written to Israel
Yes C...Judgment is Now for those In Him, but equally so, for those coming to HIM,.. but He judges In
righteousness sis..which through the CROSS brings Life, Not death..His ways are NOT our WAYS....
keep digging on this Charlotte :icon_flower:..step by step ..Let HIM unfold it for you,..For me ,your very MUCH on the Right Track, :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Bless ya sis
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
"If" I've accepted Christ . . .why then would I be exposed to the lake of Fire? Isn't the act of inviting Christ in, over-riding the necessity for purging sin out? I'm not saying that it's okay sin remains . .I'm saying . . .Jesus went to the cross and suffered on our behalf. So by accepting him in my life . . . why would God then put me through the lake of fire? How can he purge out what he no longer sees in me?
Quote from: Nathan on August 28, 2008, 04:49:08 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 27, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Okay Taf, I have a question for ya now . . . are those who have accepted Christ, do you see them going through the same lake of fire as those who don't?
"If" I've accepted Christ . . .why then would I be exposed to the lake of Fire? Isn't the act of inviting Christ in, over-riding the necessity for purging sin out? I'm not saying that it's okay sin remains . .I'm saying . . .Jesus went to the cross and suffered on our behalf. So by accepting him in my life . . . why would God then put me through the lake of fire? How can he purge out what he no longer sees in me?
Like I said, Nat ..One fire, two purposes,one which cleanes through the acceptance of His Blood via faith and Grace,the other being those who have yet to pass through it.either via Grace or at another time ie ...LOF,...willie proposes that we are In this LAKE NOW,..As we are In Christ NOW, christ is the lake of Fire ,he is also the Blood\fire which purges through Grace,...those in him no need to go through it twice... ,..I just see a connection to One fire, be it now, or come another for those who may not be cleansed during this Life....,again I dont see the picture as Clear as I would like...but i see it surely all connected to the Cross,...to put it simple..One fire One purpose...TO CLEANSE..either or..
are ya making head or tail of this...
I think we're saying the same things on this. God is a consuming fire . . .the purpose of the cross was to redeem us back to God apart from the law. Sacrifices consumed by fire, yet Moses, a burning tree, not consumed through destruction, but purification the fire continued to burn. You could actually say the lake of fire is much like the 1000 year reign . .it's not a place or time, but a person.
You can either come through the cross of Christ . .or through the fire of God. One is by way of grace, the other by way of necessity. You could even say force. I'm sure those that rejected Christ would also reject the lake in the end. They've become adversaries to God's over all purpose of redeeming us back to him. . .same pattern as when Peter was also rebuked by Jesus. Our limited minds can't see the overall purpose of God, all we can see is what's in it for us. If it doesn't bring pleasure to my flesh, my flesh doesn't want it . .and yes I'm rambling.
Quote from: Nathan on August 28, 2008, 08:22:55 PM
I think we're saying the same things on this. God is a consuming fire . . .the purpose of the cross was to redeem us back to God apart from the law. Sacrifices consumed by fire, yet Moses, a burning tree, not consumed through destruction, but purification the fire continued to burn. You could actually say the lake of fire is much like the 1000 year reign . .it's not a place or time, but a person.
You can either come through the cross of Christ . .or through the fire of God. One is by way of grace, the other by way of necessity. You could even say force. I'm sure those that rejected Christ would also reject the lake in the end. They've become adversaries to God's over all purpose of redeeming us back to him. . .same pattern as when Peter was also rebuked by Jesus. Our limited minds can't see the overall purpose of God, all we can see is what's in it for us. If it doesn't bring pleasure to my flesh, my flesh doesn't want it . .and yes I'm rambling.
I believe we are Nat...I admit my wording is not always the best :icon_flower:
QuoteJesus went to the cross and suffered on our behalf.
Hi Nathan and Taffy, for the most part me and Taffy see this alike, but there might be a slight difference in the way we see Jesus suffering on our behalf. (Taffy let me know whether we see this part differently)
For myself I don't see Jesus suffering on our behalf as a substitute so that we don't have to suffer. I see Him suffering for us as a pattern to show us the way one walks into perfection. If His suffering was for us as a substitute why are we told to take up our cross and follow Him? Why do we need to confess our sins?
Jesus said you shall be baptized with my baptism and drink of my cup, does this not tell us that we to must suffer as He did? Are we not to be living sacrifices?
I don't believe He suffered death so that we don't have to rather to show us the way.
QuoteSo by accepting him in my life . . . why would God then put me through the lake of fire?
No one goes though the lake of fire until AFTER the great white throne judgment so everyone who is in the fire has had Jesus and the Father revealed to them.
Everyone must come by way of the cross, and the LAW is that which produces a cross in everyone's life.
The LAW reveals sin for what it is correct?
So the reason those who have not excepted Jesus as Lord and saviour is hurt by the fire is because they see themselves through the eyes of righteousness and become undone.
Those who know the Lord are not hurt when they see themselves through the eyes of righteousness because they know that Jesus is their mediator between them and the Father. It is this knowledge that takes away the sting of death.
QuoteHow can he purge out what he no longer sees in me?
Just because God looks at the blood on our doorpost and lintel does not mean we are purged from our sin. His death only reconciled us, His life is what purges sin out of us.
IMO this is why everyone must go through the fire, for if God looking at the blood on the doorpost and lintel was all that was needed to keep people out of the fire NO ONE would go through it at all, for it was while we were yet sinner that He died for the WHOLE WORLD.
God bless
QuoteFor myself I don't see Jesus suffering on our behalf as a substitute so that we don't have to suffer. I see Him suffering for us as a pattern to show us the way one walks into perfection. If His suffering was for us as a substitute why are we told to take up our cross and follow Him? Why do we need to confess our sins?
Jesus said you shall be baptized with my baptism and drink of my cup, does this not tell us that we to must suffer as He did? Are we not to be living sacrifices?
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
Ideed we
suffer persecution for the Cross, encouraged not to be
offended because of it.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you,
we told you before that we should
suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Mar 4:17 And have
no root in themselves, and so
endure but for a time: afterward,
when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately
they are offended. 1Thes 3:3 That no man should be moved by
THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that WE are
APPOINTED thereunto.
2Titus 1:18 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of THE
AFFLICTIONS of the
gospel according to the power of God; YES Scott through , suffering,tribulation ,afflicitions and persecutions
I agree that there is a suffering that we go through, but what suffering are we talking about? I used to fast all the time . .that was suffering. How much suffering are we talking about? Who measures it? If Jesus says his yoke is easy and his burden is light . .then why didn't he also say there is suffering to be had? Is the suffering continuous? Or . .could it be a spiritual application between soul and mind? I see us as the gates of pearl in Revelation . . .and if you check out what a pearl is . . you see that there is a suffering involved. Jesus did say in this world you will have tribulation . .but . .be of good cheer, I have over come the world. . . So . . .which is it? Physical suffering? Or the soul suffering?
As far as "taking up your cross" . . .I've learned that "take up" is a sailor's term for one who pulls in the anchor. It's the burden of the cross that has me tethered to the things of the earth, but the cry Jesus is making to us is not telling me I have my own cross to bear . . .but that it's time to pull up the anchor on my own selfishness and follow. . . take on the same image as Christ.
It's all in what perspective you are in.
I'm not saying suffering is not a part of it . . .I'm saying there comes a time when there is no more suffering . . .unless you really enjoy being in it :bgdance:
Nathan,
I do not believe there is a measurement for suffering, we each are unique and travel this journey together but God imparts to each of us individually. I cannot see my life and look at someone elses and determine in what manner they have really suffered.
I suffered in a sense when I married my wife (no not the marriage, LOL) because my family judged the reason I was getting married by what they wanted to believe and didn't care about my Love or comittment to her. (27 years this year.) But, even if I could, I would not turn back the clock and not suffer if it meant I could not be with my wife.
I know his yoke is light because I accept the pain of the flesh that I cannot subdue till I am dead from this earth. He has brought me to be willing to feel alone knowing that his will is done through me. I would not turn back the clock and change my life one bit because all I have went through has taught me what real joy is. This does not mean in my flesh I am happy go lucky all the time. Even Jesus, the perfect example, was not physically happy 100% of the time, but he knew spiritual joy from knowing the truth.
Jesus the savior of the world was alone in his darkest hour, yet his yoke was light because he know his purpose was of the father. I'm not in any way comparing myself to Jesus of course.
But then we hear of missionaries in other countries that suffer more greatly physically than anyone I know probbaly ever will, at least in the US. But do they suffer truly in Jesus name if they are running around preaching eternal torment?
Just a thought anyway.
I like your post. I personally think . . .not opposed to you at all, but I thought I'd also add that the suffering, in my opinion, is not meant to be self-inflicted. Self-inflicted suffering leads to self-righteousness. The suffering we do experience is directly related to our commitment to Christ. It's all to our benefit. "All" good things come together to those that love the Lord. . . Just beliving in universal reconciliation creates suffering for those who have friends and family members that are still trapped in their own thinking.
Jesus said he didn't come to bring peace . . .even though he "is" peace, he came to bring division . .however, just like in Genesis, when he divided, it always ended in multipication . . .God's math is so cool.
QuoteSo . . .which is it? Physical suffering? Or the soul suffering?
Hi Nathan I also see it as soul suffering.
QuoteAs far as "taking up your cross" . . .I've learned that "take up" is a sailor's term for one who pulls in the anchor. It's the burden of the cross that has me tethered to the things of the earth, but the cry Jesus is making to us is not telling me I have my own cross to bear . . .but that it's time to pull up the anchor on my own selfishness and follow. . . take on the same image as Christ.
It might just be your wording Nathan, but I see it as ONE cross, the same cross our Lord bore we to are to bear, the total denial of self is part of that cross.
QuoteI'm saying there comes a time when there is no more suffering
I agree, but only see this after the manchild has been brought forth from the womb, I can only speak for myself but I am still in travail, for the manifestation of the sons of God, to which Paul also said he awaited.
QuoteJust beliving in universal reconciliation creates suffering for those who have friends and family members that are still trapped in their own thinking.
It sure does Bro, both my parents are preachers that believe in eternal torment and I have experienced the suffering you mentioned above for the last 30 years, but the seed God planted in me so long ago has in the last 2 years started to produce fruit, for 3 of my 4 sisters now believe in the salvation of all and just about 2 months ago when speaking with my mom she said she was now leaning towards the salvation of all, so joy does come in the morning. It is an interesting walk, this walk we walk.
God bless
QuoteI do not believe there is a measurement for suffering, we each are unique and travel this journey together but God imparts to each of us individually. I cannot see my life and look at someone elses and determine in what manner they have really suffered.
I suffered in a sense when I married my wife (no not the marriage, LOL) because my family judged the reason I was getting married by what they wanted to believe and didn't care about my Love or comittment to her. (27 years this year.) But, even if I could, I would not turn back the clock and not suffer if it meant I could not be with my wife.
Hi Paul this sounds a lot like my experience, coming on 27 years for me and the wife also. My wife's dad even said to me if the marriage falls apart in the first 5 years it would all be my fault, I smiled at him and said that ok I got broad shoulders. My wife's aunt after meeting me told my wife to have an abortion and dump me.
We could have let these things destroy, but they actually strengthened us, when you go to war with someone (on the same side) it actually strengthens the bond between each other.
God bless