Here is a series I wrote on this subject a while back that I thought appropriate to share since the subject is being discussed. It is long, but hopefully addresses enough so as to understand what might appear to be a contradiction, but in fact, is not. Here is the article. I have broken it up in sections:
1Jn 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a redeemer from the curse with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous.
1Jn 3:6,9 Whoever remains in him doesn't sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't be sinning, because he is born of God.
1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don't say that he should make a request concerning this.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God doesn't sin, but he who was born of God keeps himself, and the evil one doesn't touch him.
Does something seem a bit contradictory to you here? Is John maybe getting a bit old, with senility setting in? He seems to waffle, does he not, one minute saying we can sin, then the next saying we cannot? And the fact that since, to the natural mind (by the way, that is the BIG reason why these verses are so misunderstood) John appears to contradict himself, has led many to find ways to somehow "smooth out" the roughness of those statements that are too hard to believe, (I will leave you to guess which statements I am referring to) while agreeing wholeheartedly with those statements which give the appearance of being the truth of the matter.
Let me set your minds at ease, John was by no means senile when he wrote what he wrote. He simply chose to not include every little detail that would have made the difficult statements easier to understand, for he assumed that the recipients of his letter would be aware of those details. After all, he wrote to them, not us.
Make no mistake, John indeed said that believers have sin, and agree with God (confess) about it, and that it is possible to sin which is why we need a redeemer from the curse. Make no mistake that John also said that believers do not sin, in fact, cannot sin.
However, we are not left to wonder how all these statements in fact are true, for elsewhere in scripture we are given the necessary details. I would like to unpack some of those details over the course of the next posts.
To be continued...
1Jn 3:1 Perceive what manner of love the Father has given us, that we may be called children of God! And we are! Therefore the world does not know us, for it did not know Him."
Let's start with the first of those "hard to believe" statements found in 1Jn 3, but back up a bit to the beginning of the chapter. He starts out by describing the amazing love that the Father has given to us, a love that speaks of us as his very children. This has nothing to do with outward appearances, because of a couple of facts he speaks of. First of all, he says that the world does not know us.
This knowing has to do with what is experienced together. Subsequently, to not know is to not experience together. For example, Adam "knew" his wife, which meant they experienced the sex act together. Until he came to her for that, he did not "know" her. It is the same here. The world refers to those without Christ, who do not believe. They do not know us because they do not experience what we do. Their experience is one of darkness. Ours is of light. Theirs is of condemnation, ours is of a clean conscience. And of course, if you read down further in the context, their experience of a father is of the adversary, producing hate, while ours is of the Father, producing love.
Now, can you look at someone and tell just by looking at them whether they are a child of God or not? No, you cannot. Who we are is something that we believe by faith to be true, for it is not fully revealed to us yet. It is inward, and as we will see, this is most important in understanding all that John is writing about us and sin.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, when He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is."
John again states the reality that we are children of God, yet while that is true now, the ramifications of that are things we are not yet aware of. This is the second reason why this is not concerning outward appearances. Notice that what is not yet manifested is what we "shall be." He does not say what we "shall become." Both speak of something yet future, but becoming something tells us that we are not yet that something. Being something however, as far as it pertains to the future, speaks of presently being that something, but just not yet being totally aware of it. The very meaning of the Greek word manifest agrees with this, as phaneroo literally means "to be made apparent, manifestly declare."
Here is one example. Was Jesus the Son of God while on earth as a man, before he was resurrected? Yes. Of course. Yet notice what Paul wrote in Romans 1 and compare the thought there with this one in John:
Rom 1:3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Notice that Jesus was "declared" (although a different Greek word, but similar in idea) to be the Son of God by the resurrection. Why did Paul say this, when he knew he was the Son of God before the resurrection? Because, being in the flesh, it was not readily apparent what he was. The resurrection declared to all that this indeed was the Son of God. In the same way, we are children of God now, although it won't be until we too shed these mortal bodies that shell who we truly are inside and are seen for who we truly are, declared to be, in Christ, sons of God, and all that goes along with that.
What is it that this manifestation will reveal about us, with the result of us seeing ourselves as being that?
"We shall be like Him" [that is, Jesus].
Think about that for a moment. To be children of God is to be like God. Ever heard of the expression, "Like father, like son?" That is what John is describing here. What is it that will show this to be the truth?
"For we shall see Him according as He is."
Do you realize what John is saying here? To be able to look at Jesus, the exact representation of who God is, will be like looking in a mirror, and what do you see when you look in a mirror? Yourself! Remember though, that this is not speaking of us becoming like Him, as though it is not true yet. On the contrary, we are like him now, but neither we, nor the world, see it yet. We do see glimpses of it every now and then, but it is hazy, "as in a metal mirror." (1Co 13:12) However, when we see him "face to face," (1Co 13:12) Paul makes the amazing statement that "I shall recognize according as I am recognized also." (1Co 13:12)
Christ sees us, that is, he "recognizes" us, as we truly are. This is already our reality. We do not see that reality ourselves though, which is why we walk by faith for now. What does Christ see when he looks at you? Himself! In that day we will see him face to face, and thus in seeing him, we will see ourselves. Are we shocked at this? We should not be, for when I look at my hand, my foot, my nose, my big tummy, (Yes, I need to workout) or any other part of my body, am I not looking at myself? It is no different with Christ. Think deeply on this and allow it to sink in, for it sets the stage for what John will say next which will lend discernment to why he could say that we do not sin, nor can we be sinning if we are born from above, yet at the same time say that we can sin, and how both are possible.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this expectation in him is purifying himself, according as He is pure."
This expectation produces a reality, a statement of fact, and that fact is that we, in purifying ourselves, are doing so from the standpoint of already being pure, not from a hope of being pure someday in the future. Incidentally, this purifying has nothing to do with actions we have to take in order to keep from becoming impure. No, the cause of the purifying, which simply means to "keep yourself pure," (notice that he speaks of Timothy as already being pure) as Paul encouraged Timothy to do, is the result of a reality within us, that is, the expectation he just got through speaking of. He gives us that expectation, which produces the result he desires, purifying ourselves, that is, keeping ourselves pure.
As a side note, how pure? Not too much; only as much as Jesus is pure. Again, no big surprise when you consider that what we are, he is. I want that so much to become as clear as possible for us to grasp, because for too long we have all been beaten down with negative statements such as "We are sinners saved by grace." Sounds so spiritual, but if when we walk around thinking that we are presently still sinners, we are calling God a liar. We are pure! We are righteous! We are holy! We are as he is, and we will soon see it with our own eyes!
How can I be so sure that he is speaking about purifying ourselves as an effect and not something we have to strive in the flesh to maintain? The very next verse leaves no doubt, for they parallel each other. Notice...
1Jn 3:3 [cause] And everyone who has this expectation in him
1Jn 3:4 [cause] Everyone who is doing sin
1Jn 3:3 [effect] is purifying himself,
1Jn 3:4 [effect] is doing lawlessness also,
1Jn 3:3 [standard of proof] according as He is pure."
1Jn 3:4 [standard of proof] and sin is lawlessness."
We see another of the many contrasts John is trying to establish, of true believers verses those who are not. Looking at verse 4, ask yourself, "When a person sins, do they then have to work at doing lawlessness also?" No, it automatically is true as a reality when the sin takes place. Get this...you cannot sin without doing lawlessness. The two are inseparable. That is why he says that sin is lawlessness. It is proof of that fact.
Now, with that in mind, reread this again:
And everyone who has this expectation in him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.
Can you see it? Look through the eyes that you have of the new creation, not the dead ones of your flesh. Just as a person who does not know God does not have to work at sin, he exists in that realm in his lifestyle. It is automatic, if you will. In the same way, we do not have to work at having the expectation in ourselves, we exist in the realm of that expectation. Nowhere in the text does John speak of us "trying to do" anything. He is speaking of reality, a reality experienced by faith. Likewise, it is automatic. If you are a child of God, you automatically have this expectation in you. As a result of that, you are purifying yourself. How do we know? The proof is in looking at Christ, who is pure. We exist in that same pureness. You cannot separate the expectation from the purifying, just as you cannot separate sin from lawlessness.
Wow, this is becoming longer than I thought. But this verse just opened up to me literally for the first time as he caused me to see this, so I had to share.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is."
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure."
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness." 1Jn 3:5 And you are aware that He was manifested that He should be taking away our sins, and in Him is no sin."
Continuing on we now see how it is that these realities are possible. The word of God, God's own expression of himself, was manifested in humanity, becoming the man Jesus. As a man in the likeness of sinful flesh, and dying as one who had never sinned, he took that principle of sin itself, and condemned it to death with him on the cross, conquering it by means of his resurrection. In this way he took away our sins, for we died with him on that day. He did this by placing the old creation in himself and killed it. The old creation is like the outer covering of a seed. When it is planted in the ground, that outer shell dies and decays. The old creation was planted in Christ, and thus died and is passing away, as John would put it.
When Christ was raised from death, he left that old likeness of sinful flesh dead, and ours with it. For it was he who was raised, with the body God had prepared for him, God himself. When he was raised, we were raised as well, a new creation was born! His spirit joined with our spirit in such a way that they are one spirit, fulfilling the shadow of husband and wife being joined as one flesh. I can anticipate someone thinking though, "But didn't John say that if we say he have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves? How can we be in Christ, who has no sin in him, if we have sin in us?
Paul gives us insight into this, when he describes how it is that we are in Christ.
Col 3:3 for you died [who we were in Adam], and your life [who we are in Christ] is hid together with Christ in God."
It is our life that is in Christ. Our life is who we truly are. Our life is our spirit, as it is our life, our spirit, that is joined with his. Christ, for this reason, is spoken of as our Life. Inseparable. Our flesh however, is not in Christ. Not understanding this is the reason I believe so many of these verses are misunderstood. As I mentioned above, Christ left his flesh dead, never to take it up again. He is no longer physical, but spiritual. He is no longer a soul, but a life-giving spirit.
Christ left his grave clothes lying in the tomb. This represents the fact that he left the old creation there, never to live again. Sin and death, part of the old creation, crucified and left to rot.
Lazarus however, came out of the tomb with his grave clothes on. This represents us, who although are in Christ, yet still can see the old creation wrapped around us. We are called to what Jesus told those around Lazarus, to take off the grave clothes, which we do by believing what he says about it, that it is indeed dead and no part of us. Even if Lazarus or others thought he was still dead because of being wrapped in grave clothes, the reality was he was not. Likewise, we are still in flesh, and can be misled by the lie that says we are still dead. The reality is however, that we are not. We are alive and what we see ourselves wrapped in has no part with us, anymore than it would with our Lord.
Following the flow of John's thought, we see that because there is no sin in him, and who we truly are is in him, not our flesh, that this is the reason John can legitimately say that we (who we truly are) do not sin. John speaks of it this way:
1Jn 3:6 Everyone who is remaining in Him is not sinning. Everyone who is sinning sees Him not, neither knows Him."
One final thought before I go to Paul's writings to provide another witness to this. Some people have said that what John was speaking of was not that we cannot commit a sin, but rather, that we cannot make it a practice, or lifestyle, of sin. They say this because the word for "sin" in 1Jn 3:9 is in the present tense. For example, the ISV renders it this way:
1Jn 3:9 No one who has been born from God practices sin, because God's seed abides in him. Indeed, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born from God.
However, this to me is an attempt to "fix" this troublesome verse to fit what we see around us, and match the statements which speak of believers in relation to sin. It is subtle, but in believing this, we deny the reality, which is that in Christ there is no sin, therefore, we who are in Christ cannot be sinning.
The present is not speaking about "practicing" something, but rather speaks of a timeline, in which at each moment of that timeline, something is true. In this case, the timeline is anyone born of God, and at each moment of that timeline of being born of God, we do not sin.
I believe what John means is:
1Jn 3:9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not committing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God."
The last post will consider what Paul had to say on this...
Before we consider what Paul said, here is an illustration that demonstrates what we have been considering so far:
Joh 13:3-10 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and was going to God, arose from supper, and laid aside his outer garments. He took a towel, and wrapped a towel around his waist. Then he poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. Then he came to Simon Peter. He said to him, "Lord, do you wash my feet?" Jesus answered him, "You don't know what I am doing now, but you will understand later." Peter said to him, "You will never wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I don't wash you, you have no part with me." Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!" Jesus said to him, "Someone who has bathed only needs to have his feet washed, but is completely clean. You are clean, but not all of you."
Here are some questions to consider:
Why do you think Peter wanted Jesus to wash his hands and head?
What was he implying about his cleanliness or lack therof by such a statement?
According to Jesus, even though the disciples' feet were dirty and in need of washing, were they themselves clean? If so, how clean?
What made them clean according to what Jesus said?
Was Jesus mistaken in what he said? How then can it be true?
Here is the spiritual reality based on this:
We have been washed clean of all our sins, and so we stand before God as completely clean, even if we give in to thinking that we are not, such as Peter felt. Jesus knows better and sees us as we are, completely clean because of being bathed.
As we live in this world, walking in it, our feet will get dirty. This is what part of us can get affected, if you will, by sin. Notice that Jesus, in speaking to us who have our feet dirtied, that if such is the case, we are still considered completely clean, EVEN WHILE OUR FEET ARE DIRTY! Of course our feet are a part of us, but according to Jesus' words, our feet being dirty does not render us unclean in his eyes.
So if our feet get dirty what do we need? Nowhere does the Scripture speak about multiple baths, or about us being bathed again and again. There is only one bathing that is spoken of for believers and it is found in Hebrews 10:22 and Eph 5:26.
Heb 10:22 we may be approaching with a true heart, in the assurance of faith, with hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience, and a body bathed in clean water."
Eph 5:26 that he might make it holy, having cleansed it in the bath of water with his word.
In Greek this speaks of an action that took place in the past, with results that continue to the present. It is therefore not a continual again and again thing. So again, our feet are dirty, so what do we need? John says that the blood of Jesus "is cleansing us from every sin." 1Jn 1:7
How is it possible for our feet to be dirty and in need of repeated washings, and yet at the same time we can be considered completely clean all the time?
Paul clears it up for me when he says these statements:
Rom 7:16-18 But if what I don't desire, that I do, I consent to the law that it is good. So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don't find it doing that which is good.
See the distinction Paul makes? When he says he does wrong, he says it isn't him who is doing it, but sin which dwells in him. He further clarifies this by saying that when he speaks of himself doing what we would call "sin", he is speaking of the flesh, a temporary part of him, but not who he truly is in Christ. This is why he can also say that nothing good dwells in him. Of course, Christ dwells in him but he clarifies what he means by inserting the thought that he is actually speaking about his flesh. Who we truly are is completely clean, and as such and in that sense we never sin. Who we truly are, Satan cannot touch at all. You can read about these truths in John's first epistle.
Yet, when the need arises to speak about such things as us doing what we don't want, or in some other way committing an act of sin, know that it is you only in the sense that it is sin using your flesh to commit the act. Because of this, this is why Jesus continues to wash us of an sin that may get onto our "feet" as we live life.
Herein however is something that saddens me so much, and that is to see that we are so quick to always point to things of the flesh, to all the "scriptural" reasons for those things that are negative. Do you ever find yourself doing that? We read such truths as these, and instead of rejoicing, we start coming up with "but this, or but that." Why are we so afraid to agree with God, to the extent that he does, about who we are in Christ? Do we somehow think that such thinking will lead us into all kinds of sin?
I find it interesting that it is precisely that same thinking that Paul had to deal with in his epistle to the Romans. Think about it: These objections and fears do not come up unless statements are made that can be made to seem like they lead to a life of sin. But the reality is so much stronger than our fleshly attempts to reason it away. For a believer to truly believe who he is in Christ, and to understand the nature of that freedom, frees us to be who we truly are, not the other way around. Anyone who thinks of all the sin they can now enjoy is still in the dark in their minds, not having yet understood the truth of the matter.
Never let anyone, and I mean anyone, try to convince you that you are anything other than completely clean in Christ. A normal person who knows they are clean enjoys that cleanliness do they not? They feel fresh and refreshed right? No one who realizes they are truly clean has the sudden urge to jump in a mud pit. Pigs do yes, but that is their nature. Newsflash...we do not have the nature of a pig! And one more small thing. If we do commit a sin, and by that I mean sin acting up in our flesh, we are not identified suddenly by the wrong we are committing. We are still clean, righteous, holy, perfected, etc. We are merely acting in a way that is not true to who we are. We are acting like we USED to be. It is important to understand that. Upon coming to know the Lord, we are forever only identified in relation to Him, no one or nothing else, despite how things appear outwardly. Such is the reason for keeping our focus on him, on heavenly thing, on things above, and NOT on ourselves, or things around us, things below.
Sin is lawlessness. Yet, we are not under the law but under grace. As I have said in previous posts, I no longer live an old nation under an old law. Therefore I cannot break laws that are not for me. However, this does not mean that there is no law in the new country, just that it does not come by the letter. That is why we can still sin.
There is the yoke of BONDAGE Gal 5:1 (the law of Moses), and a Law of LIBERTY James 1:25. The yoke of bondage is only for those who are in bondage, and the law of liberty is for those who have been delivered from the yoke of bondage. However, being not yet perfect if we act against the law of liberty (which says "be FREE from sin, not in bondage") then we have sinned. New Jerusalem is not a nation without law, just that it is not the law of bondage. It is not that Moses is used to impute sin, but that Grace brings freedom from sin. And yet if the dog returns to its vomit, it sins against the law of freedom it is meant to have.
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 26, 2009, 12:31:01 AM
Here is a series I wrote on this subject a while back that I thought appropriate to share since the subject is being discussed. It is long, but hopefully addresses enough so as to understand what might appear to be a contradiction, but in fact, is not. Here is the article. I have broken it up in sections:
To be continued...
Thank you very much for this.
I've read it a half dozen times and each time I found it even more refreshing.
Greg, excellent stuff. May I ask a question?
You wrote.........
If you are a child of God, you automatically have this expectation in you.
Spiritually speaking, aren't we all children of God? I mean, those who have not yet 'accepted' Jesus or whatever, aren't they still, spiritually, children of God in the truest sense yet without knowing it?
cp
Quote from: claypot on August 26, 2009, 04:12:07 AM
Greg, excellent stuff. May I ask a question?
You wrote.........
If you are a child of God, you automatically have this expectation in you.
Spiritually speaking, aren't we all children of God? I mean, those who have not yet 'accepted' Jesus or whatever, aren't they still, spiritually, children of God in the truest sense yet without knowing it?
cp
I most definitely believe that to be true. I believe God to be the father of all spirits, including every human spirit, although until God opens their eyes to see, they cannot know of it.
I think of Paul, who would say to the Galatians that God was pleased on that road to Damascus to reveal His son IN Paul. Not TO Paul, but IN Paul, which to me means he was in Paul even before he believed in him.
I believe the expectation of all creation, the revealing of the sons of God as the many membered body of Christ, is in every man, and each, in God's time, experiences it. It was in Paul, since Christ was in Paul, even while he was persecuting the Church, and, because Christ was in Paul, not only was Paul persecuting the Church (which everyone could see) but he was also persecuting Jesus, AND he was hurting himself as well (kicking the goads).
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 26, 2009, 05:05:25 AM
Quote from: claypot on August 26, 2009, 04:12:07 AM
Greg, excellent stuff. May I ask a question?
You wrote.........
If you are a child of God, you automatically have this expectation in you.
Spiritually speaking, aren't we all children of God? I mean, those who have not yet 'accepted' Jesus or whatever, aren't they still, spiritually, children of God in the truest sense yet without knowing it?
cp
I most definitely believe that to be true. I believe God to be the father of all spirits, including every human spirit, although until God opens their eyes to see, they cannot know of it.
I think of Paul, who would say to the Galatians that God was pleased on that road to Damascus to reveal His son IN Paul. Not TO Paul, but IN Paul, which to me means he was in Paul even before he believed in him.
I believe the expectation of all creation, the revealing of the sons of God as the many membered body of Christ, is in every man, and each, in God's time, experiences it. It was in Paul, since Christ was in Paul, even while he was persecuting the Church, and, because Christ was in Paul, not only was Paul persecuting the Church (which everyone could see) but he was also persecuting Jesus, AND he was hurting himself as well (kicking the goads).
Greg, wowzer, are we on the same page. Galatians 1.15 are some of my favorite words. I too see what you described about 'when God felt like it He revealed His Son in Paul'.
Now you made me see something that I never saw before and maybe I'm whacked out here but let me just say it and get your thoughts...........
Christ was in Paul while Paul was persecuting the Church. I agree. But what I saw was; does this mean, in some mysterious way, that Christ was also persecuting the Church?!
What you said makes total sense about Paul persecuting Christ but I had a flash of the other.
What do you think? Hmmmmmmmm.
cp
I may be wrong, but I believe it was after Paul's conversion that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were then in Paul. I'd have to search it out as far as having definite scriptural backing for that, though, but I think it exists. Either way, God did a mighty work, which is exactly what He can and does do. "Looking to Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith".
Anyway, lots of good things getting posted today :thumbsup:.
Quote from: claypot on August 26, 2009, 06:02:41 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 26, 2009, 05:05:25 AM
Quote from: claypot on August 26, 2009, 04:12:07 AM
Greg, excellent stuff. May I ask a question?
You wrote.........
If you are a child of God, you automatically have this expectation in you.
Spiritually speaking, aren't we all children of God? I mean, those who have not yet 'accepted' Jesus or whatever, aren't they still, spiritually, children of God in the truest sense yet without knowing it?
cp
I most definitely believe that to be true. I believe God to be the father of all spirits, including every human spirit, although until God opens their eyes to see, they cannot know of it.
I think of Paul, who would say to the Galatians that God was pleased on that road to Damascus to reveal His son IN Paul. Not TO Paul, but IN Paul, which to me means he was in Paul even before he believed in him.
I believe the expectation of all creation, the revealing of the sons of God as the many membered body of Christ, is in every man, and each, in God's time, experiences it. It was in Paul, since Christ was in Paul, even while he was persecuting the Church, and, because Christ was in Paul, not only was Paul persecuting the Church (which everyone could see) but he was also persecuting Jesus, AND he was hurting himself as well (kicking the goads).
Greg, wowzer, are we on the same page. Galatians 1.15 are some of my favorite words. I too see what you described about 'when God felt like it He revealed His Son in Paul'.
Now you made me see something that I never saw before and maybe I'm whacked out here but let me just say it and get your thoughts...........
Christ was in Paul while Paul was persecuting the Church. I agree. But what I saw was; does this mean, in some mysterious way, that Christ was also persecuting the Church?!
What you said makes total sense about Paul persecuting Christ but I had a flash of the other.
What do you think? Hmmmmmmmm.
cp
Well, as I understand it, when Christ was lifted up on the cross, he drew all men to himself. I believe in doing that, all then were drawn into Christ by the miraculous. Then, when Christ died, all died with him, the entirety of the old man, the first Adam. Thus, in Christ reconciliation took place. Now, that one seed, Christ, gradually over time, is planted in each individual as they are born, yet until it comes to life, it remains dormant. Thus, until Paul came to life, when God brought him to birth from above, he was a dead man walking. So I would see Paul as acting according to the old man he was, not according to the leading of the Spirit of Christ. Until he came to life, he could not have ears to hear the message of faith, and thus believe.
I do see God's sovereign hand in the persecution of the assembly, just as he is sovereign over everything. It's just that I personally do not feel comfortable thinking that Christ would be persecuting himself, putting it that way, although everything that does happen, even the evils in the world, I believe all are part of God's working a greater good.
What are your thoughts?
I dunno CP.
Doesn't Jesus say:" Saul, Saul why do you persecute me?"
Acts 9:3-5 (New International Version)
3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
Acts 22:6-8 (New International Version)
6 "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' 8" 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked.
Acts 26:13-15 (New International Version)
13 About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' 15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
But Jesus has a lot to say to the churches in the book of His Revelation
Revelation 2
4But I have this [one charge to make] against you: that you have left (abandoned) the love that you had at first [you have deserted Me, your first love].
12Then to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Pergamum write: These are the words of Him Who has and wields the sharp two-edged sword:
13 I know where you live--a place where Satan sits enthroned.
14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: you have some people there who are clinging to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to set a trap and a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, [to entice them] to eat food that had been sacrificed to idols and to practice lewdness [giving themselves up to sexual vice].
18 And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, Who has eyes that flash like a flame of fire, and Whose feet glow like bright and burnished and white-hot bronze:(F)
20 But I have this against you: that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess [claiming to be inspired], and who is teaching and leading astray my servants and beguiling them into practicing sexual vice and eating food sacrificed to idols. [I Kings 16:31; II Kings 9:22, 30.]
Revelation 3
1AND TO the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Sardis write: These are the words of Him Who has the seven Spirits of God [[a]the sevenfold Holy Spirit] and the seven stars: I know your record and what you are doing; you are supposed to be alive, but [in reality] you are dead.
There's more, CP, about the seven churches in Revelation.
Quote from: jabcat on August 26, 2009, 06:12:06 AM
I may be wrong, but I believe it was after Paul's conversion that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were then in Paul. I'd have to search it out as far as having definite scriptural backing for that, though, but I think it exists. Either way, God did a mighty work, which is exactly what He can and does do. "Looking to Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith".
Anyway, lots of good things getting posted today :thumbsup:.
Definitely Jab. I would not make whether Christ was in Paul before conversion or not an issue to die for, but it just hit me one day as I was reading that verse in Galatians. The bigger truth is indeed the miraculous that was done, however it happened. Amen.
Ron
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 26, 2009, 06:25:10 AM
Quote from: claypot on August 26, 2009, 06:02:41 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on August 26, 2009, 05:05:25 AM
Quote from: claypot on August 26, 2009, 04:12:07 AM
Greg, excellent stuff. May I ask a question?
You wrote.........
If you are a child of God, you automatically have this expectation in you.
Spiritually speaking, aren't we all children of God? I mean, those who have not yet 'accepted' Jesus or whatever, aren't they still, spiritually, children of God in the truest sense yet without knowing it?
cp
I most definitely believe that to be true. I believe God to be the father of all spirits, including every human spirit, although until God opens their eyes to see, they cannot know of it.
I think of Paul, who would say to the Galatians that God was pleased on that road to Damascus to reveal His son IN Paul. Not TO Paul, but IN Paul, which to me means he was in Paul even before he believed in him.
I believe the expectation of all creation, the revealing of the sons of God as the many membered body of Christ, is in every man, and each, in God's time, experiences it. It was in Paul, since Christ was in Paul, even while he was persecuting the Church, and, because Christ was in Paul, not only was Paul persecuting the Church (which everyone could see) but he was also persecuting Jesus, AND he was hurting himself as well (kicking the goads).
Greg, wowzer, are we on the same page. Galatians 1.15 are some of my favorite words. I too see what you described about 'when God felt like it He revealed His Son in Paul'.
Now you made me see something that I never saw before and maybe I'm whacked out here but let me just say it and get your thoughts...........
Christ was in Paul while Paul was persecuting the Church. I agree. But what I saw was; does this mean, in some mysterious way, that Christ was also persecuting the Church?!
What you said makes total sense about Paul persecuting Christ but I had a flash of the other.
What do you think? Hmmmmmmmm.
cp
Well, as I understand it, when Christ was lifted up on the cross, he drew all men to himself. I believe in doing that, all then were drawn into Christ by the miraculous. Then, when Christ died, all died with him, the entirety of the old man, the first Adam. Thus, in Christ reconciliation took place. Now, that one seed, Christ, gradually over time, is planted in each individual as they are born, yet until it comes to life, it remains dormant. Thus, until Paul came to life, when God brought him to birth from above, he was a dead man walking. So I would see Paul as acting according to the old man he was, not according to the leading of the Spirit of Christ. Until he came to life, he could not have ears to hear the message of faith, and thus believe.
I do see God's sovereign hand in the persecution of the assembly, just as he is sovereign over everything. It's just that I personally do not feel comfortable thinking that Christ would be persecuting himself, putting it that way, although everything that does happen, even the evils in the world, I believe all are part of God's working a greater good.
What are your thoughts?
Hi!
I think it better to think of things this way:
First, the scripture:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth".
Every man is naturally born in the IMAGE of God. That is to say: their "inner man"; that which forms the invisible part of every man: spirit and soul. It is the inner man which is born in the image of God.
The human body is merely a 'clay pot' which contains the spirit and soul.
However, those who are 'born from above' are being changed into His LIKENESS.
It was the latter which was 'lost' as a consequence of the Fall.
If you lined up 40 people against a wall and 20 were atheists and 20 were not, could you really distinguish them from one another at first glance?
Hardly likely.
Why is it that many people who know nothing about God are still capable of doing good works and display a remarkable moral disposition?
This is because the image of God remains largely unaltered within them.
There are others where the image of God within them has become severely injured or damaged and these are known to have committed deplorable evils.
Those who are being "changed into His likeness" are being restored to the ultimate intention of God for his creation from the beginning.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him".
It is the very likeness of God which is being revealed in us.
I hear ya all and I see all your points as valid. I also do not see Christ as persecuting Himself, although He did go to the cross willingly and even seemingly by His own design, or at least the design of His Father. Hmmmmm.
I slept and woke all night long with thoughts of Adam in the garden and comparing this with Paul on his horse. Adam ate and his eyes were opened but I am now thinking it was Adams (ours) natural carnal eyes that were opened. He saw he was naked......
Now Paul was blinded by (or to) the light also. Both Adam and Paul were blinded to the Light.
Both Adam and Paul were knocked from their high horses or thrown out of their gardens.
Scales on eyes of Paul caused some thoughts of God creating the fish......don't know where to go with this one but scales also speak to me of serpent kind of influence that needs washing away by the blood of the Lamb.
Didn't Paul go away for 14 years, into a kind of life of learning. Adam was cast out of the garden and sent into a world of hurt kind of like Joseph in the hole and in prison.
OK, now none of this matters to me if it doesn't apply to all human life right now.
As some of you have suggested, we are Paul/Adam, going from the natural to the divine. The stories of Adam and Paul are the human stories of each person going from 'Let us make man, Adam,..............' to 'Aha, Jesus, very good!'
Just some wandering thoughts of mine.
cp
Quote from: claypot on August 26, 2009, 04:12:07 AM
Greg, excellent stuff. May I ask a question?
You wrote.........
If you are a child of God, you automatically have this expectation in you.
Spiritually speaking, aren't we all children of God? I mean, those who have not yet 'accepted' Jesus or whatever, aren't they still, spiritually, children of God in the truest sense yet without knowing it?
cp
yes some are asleep and some awake.
Yeshua is Lord of them that sleep and them that are awake, both the living and the dead.
chuckt
First of all, John agreed with Paul that he and Peter and James would be for the Circumcision and Paul for the Nations.
That being said, all of John's writings are for the Circumcision.
John in his letter, said that if they do sin they have an advocate with the Father. So, yes, they still sinned.
According to Romans 5:19 (the many) all mankind are constituted sinners. All mankind have not been constituted righteous yet. We believers, including the Circumcision must await putting on immortality and incorruption to finnally not sin.
Them thar is my two cents wurth.
Quote from: Tony N on August 26, 2009, 04:54:51 PM
First of all, John agreed with Paul that he and Peter and James would be for the Circumcision and Paul for the Nations.
That being said, all of John's writings are for the Circumcision.
John in his letter, said that if they do sin they have an advocate with the Father. So, yes, they still sinned.
According to Romans 5:19 (the many) all mankind are constituted sinners. All mankind have not been constituted righteous yet. We believers, including the Circumcision must await putting on immortality and incorruption to finnally not sin.
Them thar is my two cents wurth.
this has been one of the hardest things for me to overcome, rightly dividing between what you speak of.
part of me still rebels yet part of me know it makes perfect sense.
surley this is where so much confusion comes from??
try telling a preterist some of this stuff.
peace
chuckt
You want to talk about the GREATEST STORY EVER TOLD...
This IS the best one I've hard on here since I became a member, and since I became Alive In Him, years ago.
Lee Damboise II
Gregoryfl
Do you mind if I copy this story for later understanding and for later explaining to others??
Of course.
Ron
Excerpt from The Gospel of Our Salvation. ----Will be adding more later
I type slow...not a complete proof read done yet but I'll get it off and fix it later if needed.
The divine call, "Repent ye!", through John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus and His disciples, meant to the nation of Israel what it could not possibly mean to any other nation or people. The gentiles as such, :have not the Law" (Rom 2:14), for they, long before the giving of the law, had changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being and flying creatures and quadrupeds and reptiles, and worshiped the creature rather than the Creator. Consequently, They were left to go their own ways, and to feel or grope after Him (Gen.11:1-9; Rom. 1:21-25; Acts 14:16-17; 17:22-27). But as to Israel, the Psalmist declared that the law was given to them and not to the nations , as it is written:
Telling His word to Jacob,
His statutes and Judgments to Israel,
He does not so in any nation;
And they know naught of His judgments Psa. 147:19-20
Therefore, it is clearly evident that the heralding of the baptism of repentance by John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus and His disciples, had no application to GENTILES, for they had no covenants or promises of which to be reminded. But Israel had forsaken their promise covenant and made void the commandments of God for the "traditions" and "dead works" of their Rabbis ( Mk. 7: 5-13: Heb. 6: 1" . Consequently, "Repent ye!" was the divine cal to them to forsake their "traditions" and "dead works" and mind again or "remember" with heart obedience their promise covenant with Jehovah God, to do the "royal Law" ( Ex.19:5-6; Mal. 4:4; Lk. 3: 7-17; Mk. 7: 1-3; Acts 21:20; James 2:8-12). Then upon repentance, that is their avowal to " remember" and do the Law of Moses, they were baptized, confessing their sins, for their ceremonial cleansing or remission ( Mt. 3:5-6; Mk. 1:4-5; Acts 22:16) . After this, they were in a position or ready to believe the Gospel ( Mk. 1:15 that their promised Messiah was present ot confirm the word of their prophets and restore the kingdom under all the heavens to the nation of Israel, for they were the people of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with their fathers, saying unto Abraham, " and in your seed ALL the kindreds of the earth shall be blessed" ( Dan. 7: 14, 22,27; Lk. 12:32; Acts 3:25-26
To be continued...