The Nature of Divine Justice
Traditional views of hell are based on a particular view of what divine justice is. Its the view that justice is understood in terms of retribution the punishment must fit the crime, it should be appropriate to the crime and proportionate to the crime. Which in itself, raises a whole bunch of questions about traditional hell. Because if traditional hell is built on the idea that the punishment should fit the crime, how could a finite sin committed by a finite creature be so severe that the appropriate punishment is an infinite punishment? So in itself, the doctrine of retribution which props up traditional views of hell seems to undermine them at the same time, or at least make problems for them. There are attempts to defend traditional views of hell in the face of this kind of objection but there are also explorations among philosophers and theologians of alternative understandings of what divine justice might be. Oftentimes in Scripture, justice is seen as something that is about Gods saving justice. God saves people through justice. God restores people through his justice. Its not simply about retribution. So there are all sorts of discussions about what divine justice might be in Biblical Studies and contemporary theology particularly. -Dr. Robin Parry
Saving, healing restoration
"God's justice is a saving, healing, restorative justice, because the God to whom justice belongs is the Creator God who has yet to complete his original plan for creation and whose justice is designed not simply to restore balance to a world out of kilter but to bring to glorious completion and fruition the creation, teeming with life and possibility, that he made in the first place." ― N.T. Wright
As George MacDonald was so fond of pointing out, not one word in the New Testament implies that vindictiveness and wrath are ultimate facts about God, or that Christs sacrifice was required in order to appease a vindictive God. A more accurate understanding would be that Christs death and resurrection was Gods sacrifice to us, the means whereby God changes our attitudes and reconciles us to himself; it is not a means whereby Gods attitude towards us is changed. Gods attitude remains the same yesterday, today, and forever. For God is love; that is the rock-bottom fact about God. But the history of organized religion, at least in the Western tradition, is a record of our human resistance to the proclamation that God is love, that his love extends to everyone, and that it is in no way conditioned upon human obedience or human faithfulness. ― Thomas Talbott (The Inescapable Love of God)
"Unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work. The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus: To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work." -George MacDonald
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Anj2jtMP8
Amen! Such good messages! And such a simple yet relevant truth.
Another alternative to Jesus's sacrifice is that through His apparent "death" He in fact, as the son of God and God, consumed death by entering it's realm and harrowing hades, the grave, of all lost souls.
Jesus's Sacrifice isn't just to change our attitude but to act as the ULTIMATE spiritual antibiotic for the illness of creation which is decay and death. An error within the order of things, for God, did not create life in order that it should strive to survive death, but rather to expand and grow in an endless realm forevermore in Love and Peace and Joy without the struggle of any form.
Jesus, indeed is the doctor, as He Himself points out when he mentions in Mark 2:17: ...On hearing this, Jesus told them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
A doctor who saves not from himself but from an intruder, a disease, something that should not exist by itself. Therfore His sacrifice isn't to appease an angry father. In fact The Father is the Doctor and the sustainer!
most, deep down, dont believe in eternal hellfire perpetrated by a loving God...it's ludicrous....also, the idea that God tortures his Son on the cross to appease his anger at us, beings he created, is just...words dont do justice to how stupid that idea is
Quote from: darryl on February 23, 2021, 12:07:31 PM
most, deep down, don't believe in eternal hellfire perpetrated by a loving God...it's ludicrous....also, the idea that God tortures his Son on the cross to appease his anger at us, beings he created, is just...words don't do justice to how stupid that idea is
Amen, brother!
Exactly my words.
I seldom can even understand how people can be this delirious simply because of the emotion of fear.
I don't know where this quote came from but it does a lot of justice on its own: "Fear is a mind killer"
Perfect love casts out all fear.
I. M. O the fear we are supposed to experience is actually awe -literally gob smacked. Jaw dropping, blowing the mind and cobwebs away.
Doubts generated by fear cloud the mind. Causes the problems to expand beyond our control.
The writings of Paul do not cite the dangers of hell.
Again I. M. O the definitions listed in Corinthians 13 are preached about but then ignored because the flesh cannot fathom that concept.
No wonder all creation is groaning while awaiting the coming change.
Quote from: Shadrak-Daniel on February 23, 2021, 01:25:28 PM
Quote from: darryl on February 23, 2021, 12:07:31 PM
most, deep down, don't believe in eternal hellfire perpetrated by a loving God...it's ludicrous....also, the idea that God tortures his Son on the cross to appease his anger at us, beings he created, is just...words don't do justice to how stupid that idea is
Amen, brother!
Exactly my words.
I seldom can even understand how people can be this delirious simply because of the emotion of fear.
I don't know where this quote came from but it does a lot of justice on its own: "Fear is a mind killer"
agreed, fear is the gr8 driver of baser emotions !