disproving the noetic effects of sin

[Seth]

It's a doctrine. Why wouldn't it be. Why do you favor the hell doctrine as certainly untainted but UR as possibly tainted?

[GodIsLove]

why would it be

What if we in our sinful state can't comprehend a God who is unconditionally loving and who wills all to be saved and who accomplishes His goal? We can't comprehend that Jesus said "Father forgive them they know not what they do" and really meant it. Jesus said to forgive our enemies and pray for those who persecute us but with ET God would do the opposite of what he commanded.

I could grab all the scriptures to support UR but I am short on time and if you browse this site they are posted throughout.

If you are implying that those who believe in UR do so because they want to continue sinning and think they will get a free pass, in my own experience this is far from the truth and those who believe in UR are instead devoted to God and growing closer to Him and following His will. It is mercy for others and hope and prayer and scripture and God's own revealing to us that leads us to believe in UR.

UR can be true but consequence of sin is real especially in the here and now.

I urge you to keep seeking and to browse the topics here and keep asking questions!  :HeartThrob:

[ask21771]

why would an all forgiving god kick adam and eve out of the garden

[Seth]

Forgiveness does not imply lack of discipline. I forgive my daughter the instant she does something wrong but I still  have to discipline her or she won't understand.

[rosered]

why would it be

What if we in our sinful state can't comprehend a God who is unconditionally loving and who wills all to be saved and who accomplishes His goal? We can't comprehend that Jesus said "Father forgive them they know not what they do" and really meant it. Jesus said to forgive our enemies and pray for those who persecute us but with ET God would do the opposite of what he commanded.

I could grab all the scriptures to support UR but I am short on time and if you browse this site they are posted throughout.

If you are implying that those who believe in UR do so because they want to continue sinning and think they will get a free pass, in my own experience this is far from the truth and those who believe in UR are instead devoted to God and growing closer to Him and following His will. It is mercy for others and hope and prayer and scripture and God's own revealing to us that leads us to believe in UR.

UR can be true but consequence of sin is real especially in the here and now.

I urge you to keep seeking and to browse the topics here and keep asking questions!  :HeartThrob:

  Amen , let it be so   Amen ,So let it be  on earth as it is in heaven !   :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

there are scriptures against universal salvation as well

Yes, there are.  However if we think of Eternal Torture and Universal Reconciliation as theories, I found in my survey of the KJV (every book, every chapter, every verse) that UR fits the data (biblical texts) far better than ET.  If you're going to teach ET, you must ignore much - if you're going to teach UR, you need to ignore little, if any.  :declare:

[eaglesway]

IMO there are no properly translated verses against UR unless they are taken out of context. Thats just me :o)

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[lastpost]

In my opinion, the theology which promotes the higher degree of Divine Love is more in tune with the GOD who is Love.

Personally, the test I use for all things biblical is: if it does not come up to the highest standard of Love, then the mind of man has played a part in it somewhere, either little or great. Where man has had his hand in something then man leaves an imprint of himself in some degree.

Many say that "GOD wrote the Bible" and that is fine for them because if everything is absolutely as it is written in a literal context then a favoured doctrine developed from this context which finds a reflex in the mind can be given great weight, thereby keeping the seeker close to GOD and away from sin and with the desire to further learn about and serve GOD – which means taking the active Christ to His children in need. 

But, from my own perspective, that assumes that GOD's method was not to pass His message on through human mediators using the colour of their own individuality – a cursory look at the individual style of each instrument, whether prophet or disciple, should shout volumes as to the involvement of that instrument's own personality. And then there is also the human element to consider where someone receives inspiration in one form or another whether it be the Holy Spirit speaking through another human being or whether it be the impinging of thoughts directly into the mind – but that person then must pass on that message to a another group of people and the messenger will take the group consciousness into account, i.e, what is their culture, how best can they receive this message so that they can both understand it and not reject it as strange and un-God-like? So, yes, because Divine Spirit Power is in the pages of the Holy Volume it is inspired by GOD – GOD-breathed - and yet one must also account for the human element to gain truer perspective – in my opinion.

This does not mean that I think that the Spirit Power emanating from the pages of the Bible is in error. Not at all, no. There is Divine Spirit Power within every word, and Spirit Power cannot be in error. Every letter, because it is charged with Spirit Power it inspires the mind and something spiritual takes place, meaning that the mind receiving inspiration become altered in a degree, and many degrees can be equated with revelation. The Spirit Power that comes from GOD elevates a valueless letter into a conveyance or agency of Truth, of inspiration. There is another factor to consider and that is the sacredness that millions upon millions have given to the Bible and when those thoughts are pure in the divine sense, then the Bible is lifted up for all time. It is an interesting law of the Spirit in my opinion.

The Bible contains the whole Truth and yet I believe it does not contain all of the records that it might have done nor are they without human influence through which the Light has shone. I believe that having this perspective of the Bible and its compilation releases to the mind an even greater access to comprehending the Heart of Love.

As for Truth, I do not think that a human can know Truth in its completeness. Perhaps a human may have a greater understanding of Truth than another, but that understanding will still be very small in relation to the fullness of the Absolute, Mighty and Ineffable Being we attempt to encompass with the little word 'GOD'. I do not think that any words that attempt to define GOD will be The Truth but only pointers towards something far greater and as yet far beyond a human's limited comprehension.

Therefore, as far as the theologies most spoken about on this site are concerned, I give more weight to the more loving theology than the lesser one, although I personally do not believe it is complete, but a shell, an outline with blurred edges that must be redefined when the mists of the Earth's valleys clear and reveal more of GOD's Love.

If one literalises a vision, then in my opinion that Truth is being limited and GOD's love will be restricted - for instance when someone who religiously studies the Holy Book and thinks that they are better than the worst of sinners who passed out of this life without a state of repentance – 'better' and more entitled to their Divine inheritance because they follow every ritual described therein and therefore they have the right to sit at the top table with the Lord while those others are disinherited, may find that those sinners who have fallen the farthest and who have had the evil in their souls burnt out in a post mortem state – that these now repentant sinners have a deeper gratitude than the righteous religionist, and unbeknown to that religionist, the repentant sinner has been drawn closer to the Abode of the Lord than the religionist who is not only oblivious to what the Lord is doing. I believe that someone like Magdalen had a deeper love for Christ than most because of how far she knew she had fallen into sin, so I would take great care not to think of oneself 'better placed' in respect of those sinners who have not yet repented while the earthly body held them and must pass through the redemptive cleansing fires necessary for their own purification – for it is possible that even they emerge with something that even the saint cannot grasp.

The Love of GOD
cannot
cannot
cannot
be exaggerated.

Personally, it matters little to me if the Bible had a record not included or if there are yet scripts to be found in the earth that GOD means to be included, because the GOD of Love of whom I have learnt and been touched by, cannot be affected by the minds of men or their correct or incorrect theologies. However, given the two proposed doctrines, Universal Salvation is clearly the doctrine of choice for me over that of the everlasting hell dogma, although my personal understanding of Universal Salvation is different to the one laid down for this site. If one looks into the river and see the reflection of the trees and sky and birds flying about, all it is possible to see shimmering pale reflections of the beauties but the borders are fluctuating and undefined. This is how I see these doctrines. However, looking upward away from the river's reflection it is possible to see something closer to Reality. But that is just my opinion of the way I perceive things.

There is a message of infinite love and comfort for all who seek to follow the Master Christ which should transcend the doctrines of the mind of man: The one who seeks to raise himself above his physical self by denying himself, the one who shows an act of kindness to a stranger, the one who performs little acts of Service that bring benefits to one's fellow beings, the one not too caught up in worldly affairs to comfort and sympathise with another who is in sorrow, the little maid who prays for the broken flowers upon which she has just trodden...such as these, in my opinion, act for Christ and He not only will never forsake them but He will welcome them with open arms into the brightness, into the gladness, into that which shall never pass away.

I am certain that you should trust in your Christ, He is your Friend, your Guide – He comes first before the doctrines of the minds of men. It seems to me that 'The Christ Way', in its simplicity, is not only to remember one's obligations to each other, not only to remember one's obligations to humanity at large, but to allow the Christ within to be active, to allow the active Christ within to carry out every small detail of one's life. Then there is nothing to worry about doctrines, nothing to fear at all. The child is in Christ, Christ is in GOD, and GOD is in all.