In history Catholics have said that only they go to heaven and all non-Catholics go to hell. Protestant churches have said that they go to heaven but Catholics and other churches and non-believers go to hell. Orthodox Christians have said only they go to heaven. How can the churches condemn each other? It is wrong and it is ridiculous.
I agree with you it's wrong. But there is a certain twisted reward (even subconsciously) in thinking you are the special one and everyone else is not.
Daniel prophesied that the 'saints' or 'churches" were overcome. God did it[let them fail/just like Israel] so that He could show
mercy unto the 'sinners' that the saints condemned.
the kingdom of heaven..is..like........
a measure of leavening that a woman took and hid in 3 measures of flour.....UNTIL ALL WAS LEAVENED.......
the leaven here representing the free gift/grace and mercy unto all men.
no flesh will boast not even the saints...it's all an act of GRACE ON HIS PART........
Daniel 7;8 this horn[power] had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully..
as we ALL HAVE BORE THE IMAGE OF THE CORRUPT ONE.....SO,TOO,SHALL ALL BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE INCORRUPT ONE
the flesh profiteth nothing
When I was a kid in the Catholic Church, they told me my mom was going to hell for being a Methodist. That kind of stuff turned me off quick. I left the church as soon as I could, and I began seeking the truth elsewhere. Years later, when I tried the Protestant Church, they told me my whole family was going to hell for being Catholic. Now I think they're all full of crap because I know God is the savior of all mankind. I haven't gone to church for a long time, and I don't miss it at all. I feel sorry for all the people who are still trapped by the systematized deception. Unfortunately the world church is thought to represent the ecclesia, the body of Christ, but I think it's just Satan's counterfeit masquerading as it. I think people need to come to the realization that they can get out of church and into God by simply studying an accurate translation of the word of God, but, when you tell most of them that, you usually just get accused of heresy especially when they find out the truth that you've learned about universal reconciliation. The charge of heresy doesn't bother me. In fact, I get amused every time it happens because they think I'm supposed to get paranoid about that, but I just keep on grinning because the problem isn't me not conforming to church doctrine. It's the church not conforming to the word of God. Get yourself free people! Just don't go back to that place anymore that threatens your whole family with torture in fire forever. It's not healthy for you mentally or physically. It's like a drug habit that you think you just can't quit, but you can. Just pray to God about it, and God will show you the way. Start meditating on the word of God, and forget about church doctrine. God will give you peace that you never found in church. God is spirit who says we're supposed to worship in spirit and truth, and that can be done continuously anywhere without having to go to a special building on Sunday to hear about being tortured in fire forever. Even if you don't hear about it every Sunday, it's always hanging over your head ready to get you if you step out of line. Don't live your life in fear or denial. Get yourself free! Get out of church and into God.
Quote from: Joanna on May 08, 2015, 10:10:34 PM
In history Catholics have said that only they go to heaven and all non-Catholics go to hell. Protestant churches have said that they go to heaven but Catholics and other churches and non-believers go to hell. Orthodox Christians have said only they go to heaven. How can the churches condemn each other? It is wrong and it is ridiculous.
The organizations that churchs belong to have a growth agenda that involves the possession of souls. This involves proselytizing and propaganda- religious orthodoxy is frequently just a form of law bondage, "strongholds and fortresses that exalt themselves agaisnt the true knowledge of God". Within those organizations, and each individual church are individual believers of different persuasions and different spirits, some walking in the love of God, serving humbly according to their degree of the knowledge of God.
Israelites in Babylon were still Israelites- but some "became Babylonian" in spirit and the prophets warned them to "Return to God". When the call went forth to return to the land, not all the Israelites left to go back to the promised land. Only a remnant did. Our roll, as believers who have grown beyond the limitations of denominational strictures and the theology of hell and condemnation of unbelievers and "other" believers, is to offer the truth of the gospel in a humble heart, without rancor or malice. Difficult to do at times- but VERY IMPORTANT, because WE DO NOT KNOW the secrets of the heart unto whom we are speaking.
James 3:13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
2 Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but
be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
:goodpost:
Thanks Sue :o), it is important to me that we keep this in mind, because as seekers from various backgrounds peruse this site, I would hate to see them run off by strident words given in general condemnation of groups. I may even agree with the judgment spoken about their doctrines, but a reasonable attitude, and a gentle tone, may allow them to investigate long enough to actually hear the important things we have to say, rather than to flinch, scalded by the way we say it.
I agree.
This site is a ministry to the whole world all at once and within that world are religious groups of every kind, and within those religious groups are individual precious people for whom our Lord died.
In my normal every day life, when meeting someone, regardless of what religious group they belong to, I would not ever even bring that subject up, along with any doctrinal differences etc. Because that would immediately put the other person on the defensive and would probably shut down true communication before it even got off the ground. :) So I do agree with what you're sharing about this. I'm guilty of it too....online here in another thread I did mention a religious group with an eek sign that I was invited to exercise with...and they are lovely people! I'm going to revise that post now. Sorry about doing that.
I'm British. Eternal torment in a fiery hell seems to be more common in American churches than in British chuches - some of these American chuches are descended from British Christian reformers such as Baptists and Brethren who settled in America. The liberal attitude amongst British people on hell (it doesn't exist or only despots, terrorists and murders go there) is today more common with British Christians but we have a few chuches in Britain that still teach about hell. I go to a Methodist Church and I don't accept that people are eternally tormented in hell. The liberal attitude of denying hell - I think the word tolerant is better than liberal if you don't want to believe people are condemned.
The description of hell is debated and it is more often viewed among the British who do believe it as a miserable, lonely and depressing place where people are separated from God than a place of fire.
Ephesians 4:5
There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
We have different churches but there is one God, one Jesus, one Holy Spirit, one Bible (whatever language it is in and whether it has been translated correctly or incorrectly) and one church (which includes all the church denominations).
Quote from: Joanna on May 08, 2015, 10:10:34 PM
In history Catholics have said that only they go to heaven and all non-Catholics go to hell. Protestant churches have said that they go to heaven but Catholics and other churches and non-believers go to hell. Orthodox Christians have said only they go to heaven. How can the churches condemn each other? It is wrong and it is ridiculous.
Hi Joanna ,
Speaking on the behalf of God , is a scary thing , those whom teach this , we can see what the word says about that Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD
The Word of God is what judges us all.
Teaching men so brings greater judgment of the sense of this as
YOU judge so shall you
BE judged and convincing others to believe the lies increases sin and error and judgment in this life much loss and can be your own life in the here and now for some , depending on how much pride must be burned out of us , but many see this as a bad thing I see this as God changing us and becoming new in the seed and Spirit of Christ life His fire and love is the chastening of the Lord by Holy Spirit witness , [Example was in Daniel as king Nebuchadnezzar experienced change and as He burned the 3 children in the furnace the Lord was with them even back than and they were not harmed by that fire at all ]
All depending on our ability to finally cry out to God , everyone will confess Jesus Christ , EVERYONE , so judgment does cause a fire and burning , as the tongue is a unruly little member that causes much harm and must be stopped creating our own lake of fire effect to me as I see it [firey trials] in the spiritual sense and in the real life the chaos of tornadoes and hurricanes & sickness and the ill effects on the fleshly existence
My own daughter was born horribly afflicted , this is what it took for me to ''change '' my carnal and prideful thinking , not having any control and knowing ONLY GOD IS IN COMPLETE CONTROL .. the change IS in an instant and to on going process as God desires for us all to be , till the end of all things
before us ...
Now back to them ''religious '' speakers to the unknown God ...[Acts 17]
Everything said as idle talk , every word right down to the jot and tittle , that is every speck of the law that you are guilty of ! wow!
You cannot praise God and speak evil of your brothers and sisters in Christ .
James touches on this too Just as Jesus speaks to us through His Word about it , so many powerful witnesses in the WORD ,
for me it is the pride of Life speaking and boasting against all that is called God .
There is one lawgiver and Judge who is able to save and destroy , being humble and staying in the low place , at Jesus feet is the best answer I have to share .
The Word of God is about loving and forgiving one another even our enemies this is a test to see just how carnal we still are as enemies to the Cross of Jesus Christ , judgment to me is measured by the Cross , this is why we must take ours up and follow Jesus not in word only , but in deed and truth when we fail to do this , showing mercy to the unmerciful even as enemies , we loose our place of mercy also for a time or never had it but thought so deceiving our own hearts or never kept it when we failed the test ...
God is always forgiving for this we can be grateful so tankful for this mercy and great grace and long suffering with us so none should perish
MATT 23
13"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people;
for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers;
therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites,
because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of gEHenna l as yourselves.... The ones desiring to bring fire down from heaven in the sight of men ! whom do not know what manner of spirit they are of ! bringing this fire and judgement on their own heads by their own unruly tongues of fire setting the course of gehenna upon them all
it is the carnal nature of mankind warring against the Holy Spirit of God / Sword of the Spirit and the Lord of Sabbath armies Himself in the new heavens and earth they war against .
rev13 12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence.
And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast,
whose fatal wound was healed. [King Nebuchadnezzar was healed by God not cutting down the whole tree , but left the root system in the earth , to spring back up over time
He was the Head of Gold and made the image for those to bow down and worship him by force and fear and anger to destroy them , all the kingdom , except Gods chosen few who had great adversity Rome is this last head of the 7 headed beast in the earth and over the seas and the queen of heaven being Babylon the great whore of the earth and all her daughters of men religious doctrine/ teachings ]
13
He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
that roots system stayed in the earth and become a massive tree of knowledge of good and evil and mixed with confusion [chaos ]
and God deals with her with the revelation / revealing of JESUS CHRIST warring against her by allowing the beast to eat her and devour her flesh and burn her with fire
as 7 spirits and 7 mountains , 7 heads and 7 vials and 7 trumpets and 7 seals are loosed in the earth
My whole family is church oriented even though most of them rarely go except on special occasions, but we get along all right because they know where I'm coming from. I have compassion for all church people but not the institution because I think, from the establishment of even the word "church," that the idea was to have a religious arm of the Roman Empire to use to suppress people with irrational fear. That agenda carried through right into the Protestant Church because the basic doctrine wasn't purged. So I just view the Protestant Church as Roman Catholic Lite. I always try to share the truth in the spirit of love, but you have to speak the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts when you're living a lie. I think most of us here have had to give up some doctrine that we used to think was the truth. It's a personal decision everybody has to make who is presented with information contrary to what they believe. Even among those of us who believe in the scriptural truth of universal reconciliation, there is much disagreement about other doctrine, but we all come from different life experiences. So that's to be expected. I agree that we need to be loving to our brothers and sisters who are still deceived by church doctrine, but we can't do so by agreeing that church doctrine is all right. I think we do them and the truth a disservice by doing so. You have to be tactful with your approach or you'll turn them off, but you have to be steadfast in speaking the truth. That doesn't mean you have to hit them with all of it all at once in the beginning, but you shouldn't be afraid to speak it just because you think you might offend them. The truth is going to offend deception, but that doesn't mean that a good intelligent argument isn't going to cause people to change their minds. I like to be friendly, and I like friendly people. But I'm not going to let myself be afraid of losing friends just by speaking the truth. Jesus Christ was very loving, but he got some folks mad because they were proud and refused to change their ways. It's just like we hear about God hating sin but loving the sinner. We need to love church people, but eventually we have to tell them the doctrine of their church was established for the political expediency of the Roman Empire and is a lie straight from Satan. Their church doesn't hesitate to say that we're heretics going to hell for rejecting its authority. Sharing the truth in the spirit of the love of God doesn't mean compromising with evil to make friends and influence people. Sometimes we can commit sins of omission. In other words, we need to have good timing and strategy about how to do so, but we need to speak the truth. I think it is what we're chosen to do in this world full of lost souls seeking the truth. It's up to God who will believe and when, but I think we need to be willing channels of the truth so folks can hear about it. My intention is never to offend or disrespect church people, but the systematized deception needs to be exposed for what it is because it is the synagogue of Satan. I know some people want to try to do so within the institution. If that's your thing, go for it, but be careful you don't get sucked into the apostasy while you're doing it. I prefer to communicate with church people outside the institution on neutral turf. I don't think we need to confuse them with any deep theology to do so, but we can simply explain that the full scope of the evangel is such that all creation is involved in God's ultimate plan of reconciliation and show them the scripture that says so. Orthodox theology has had plenty of time to build its case with plenty of comebacks against the truth of scripture, and deception is Satan's method of operation. So church people will come back with plenty of questions supported by inaccurate translation of scripture and distorted interpretation of it. We just have to study an accurate translation of scripture and trust holy spirit to cause the right information to come through us to them. If we plant the seed, God will make it grow.