I am in hopes I can figure this out with the help of all of you.
I really am not sure through the purification process are we reincarnated?
The thought of ever being another person does not appeal to me, the truth does.
I have wanted to ask this for a while but now is the time.
What have most of you gleaned about reincarnation?
Be gentle with :HeartThrob: please.
We're not reincarnated, but Jesus Christ is reincarnated in us as we become totally tunnel-visioned to doing absolutely everything by the New Testament in word, thought, and deed. The book of Acts in the KJV uses the phrase regarding people that were being born again through the preaching of the Apostles -- it says "the Word of God multiplied." And of course, 1Peter 1:23 explains that. If you wanted to be really technical, then resurrection day is a reincarnation of those that have died back into their own bodies. But you've always been you and always will be you, rather than all of the names of the phone book given enough generations. I know all of the verses people twist to try to make a case for reincarnation because I did entertain this my first year or two of being in UR. But it's not in harmony with love and truth and the good testimony which Jesus Christ gave before Pontius Pilate that St. Paul referred to later for the singularity of it's significance in the Gospel accounts. Trying to be brief to allow for the input of others.
I'll go ahead and take the clobbering that may come, hoping there aren't any accusations of being a medium or anything like that from this. The Scriptures say to test yourselves to see whether or not Jesus Christ is within you. Remember that verse I'm just citing on this from 2Corinthians 13 throughout what I'm about to say. I love a lot of the more accurate translations, but I think they miss a great truth when they don't follow the same rendering as the KJV in Philippians 1 where Paul called the Philippian Church "partakers of his grace." Trying to choose my words carefully here. Jesus said when you came under pressure to not premeditate what you would say because the spirit of your father would speak through you. He told some that their father was the devil, and hence they were manifesting his deeds. Jesus spoke of His words and deeds virtually interchangeably as proceeding from His Father.
There is such a thing as the transference of spirits, such as in Acts 19:11-12 and numerous other passages of Scripture, warnings about inappropriate, ill-timed laying on of hands, etc. Jesus said that if we've continued in His Word, then we'd continue in the Word of those He was sending. Jesus said it would be the spirit of your father speaking through you. Some in the New Testament are either referred to as, or refer to themselves as fathers. So, although that's true in the ultimate sense about it being your heavenly Father that'll speak through you if you've been a good disciple and have really really had the Word layered out in your mouth, thoughts, and lifestyle to the place of fullness that Matthew 12:34 and countless other passages talks about -- it goes a bit deeper than that. And I'm thinking that this is where some of the confusion over reincarnation has partially come from, with negative manifestations of this in the Kingdom of darkness -- and there being only darkness over there rather than light from the Kingdom of light, they don't know what makes them stumble as it says in Proverbs.
There is a place in the regular confession of God's Written Word until you've really layered your inner man with it, and in your listening to the preached Word through someone God is having to father you in the spirit, to where you'll begin to manifest their spirit as well as the Spirit of your heavenly Father, which is why St. Paul was very stringent on the characteristics of a qualified minister when it came to purity, sound in the Word, and other things. And for those that view the woman in Scripture as a picture of the soul, and particularly the carnal soul, then his forbiding of woman preachers in the light of what I'm saying should speak volumes to you, that it's not a gender issue by any remote stretch in the least, but a spiritual transference issue. You become a partaker of their grace if you regularly hearken to the Word proceeding through them and act upon every aspect of it that's within your understanding from the Holy Spirit to act upon as it lines up for you with the Written Word and the Anointing on your life. God's Spirit being transfered, yes, but God's grace as revealed through their lives as well.
There have been times in sharing the Word in various different contexts where it wasn't just the Spirit of Jesus Christ sharing through me, but I was aware, [tangibly aware,] of the presence and even manifestation on me of St. Paul, St. John, Kenneth Copeland, and Elhanan Winchester at various different times and in various different contexts. And not all of the time, but occasionally that "cloud of witnesses" Hebrews talks about would seemingly manifest, particularly if it was the grace on them manifesting through me at the given moment -- whether they were physically among us, as in the case of Kenneth Copeland, or not as in my referrence to the others. Besides the Holy Spirit, those have been the only accompanying witnesses that I've been aware of as manifesting through me as I've shared in various different contexts different things from the Written Word. Jesus Christ and our heavenly Father first and primarily ALWAYS and I wasn't "trying to" make the other happen along the way, though I did become aware of it in 1992 or 1993 with someone having taught me this principle of being a partaker of someone's grace "in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel" and the Gospel is confirmed with signs following according to the last verse of Mark's Gospel. I was just enjoying the Written Word primarily and the preached Word besides and a book by Elhanan Winchester that God had drawn my attention to for quite a while before I finally got it and read it a few times, and rejoiced in the grace of God and the increase in clarity that I was receiving on the message of UR.
But in my pursuit of the Word and of the Holy Spirit and in being lead by the Word and the Holy Spirit through my intense devotion to the Written Word to a Bible teacher or two along the way, the transference of grace happened in my life to where not only was grace multiplied into my life through knowledge, as it says at the start and close of 2Peter and I believe one or two other places it's either directly stated or implied depending on the translation, but literally the spirit of anyone that's been a father to me has LITERALLY manifested through me. St. Paul told the Colossian Church in Philemon that if they count him as a partner, then they should receive Onesimus as they would receive him. Now, I realize that those that tend to be "St. Paul only" in their interpretation of Scripture might choke and spit on that one, or swallow hard, but it's in there in verse 17. It was that this principle that I'm sharing was understood this way, and why I believe the KJV has the correct rendering in Philippians 1 on "partakers of my grace." I believe I could go into much more Scripture on this, "prophet's reward" passages, etc., but this subject right here and negative counterparts to it are likely where some of the genuine confusion over reincarnation have come from with people becoming aware of a heritage manifesting in front of them in different contexts.
Thank you martin, I appreciate this and much to soak in.
I am glad that we will always be ourselves.
If you have more to add please do I have had a universalist try and convince me we are reincarnated with scriptures and probably mixed with new age teachings, I am absolutely not a debater and unfortunately not a big talker either so I appreciate someone like yourself who can explain things. :thumbsup:
I will read this a few times to get the fullest grasp possible.
:cloud9: NO, we are not reincarnated. Reincarnation is a works of the flesh doctrine, because it tenants imply you can obtain salvation (eventually) apart from the work of the cross and the Lord. This is being visited heavily right now among it's New Age proponents, who are taking advantage of the flock.
They usually cite cases of children or people have provable "past lives". What they have is a familiar spirit; called "familiar" because it was in the person of the past that it is now trying to convince the new host, THEY are. From such, RUN. Blessings....
Can any of the attributes of the seed that is Christ be passed through human DNA?
Does Paul raise that possibility in the following verse?
2 Timothy 1:5
I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also.
My Grandfather whom passed before I was old enough to remember him was a old time evangelical rapture bound preacher well known from coast to coast way back at the turn of the century when it was hard to get from coast to coast.
I used to think while I was living as a 'kingpin" (according to some) that my life would be enough to make my grandfather role over in his grave.
However as a youth I had a constant very unusual doodle that I would repeat over and over while in school or otherwise bored as a child but confined to a desk or room somewhere.
But then not to many years ago and after my turn-about in life my father gave my grandfathers Greek NT with an english interline. In it I found some old notes of his, some of which recorded fellowship in the form of one or two dollars from the rather poor Christian assemblies that he had spoken at
On the back of one of them and much to my surprise was the exact same unusual doodle but done by him many years earlier than I had done so many times and have to this day never seen anywhere else
Go figure
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on June 12, 2009, 03:38:07 AM
Can any of the attributes of the seed that is Christ be passed through human DNA?
Does Paul raise that possibility in the following verse?
2 Timothy 1:5
I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also.
My Grandfather whom passed before I was old enough to remember him was a old time evangelical rapture bound preacher well known from coast to coast way back at the turn of the century when it was hard to get from coast to coast.
I used to think while I was living as a 'kingpin" (according to some) that my life would be enough to make my grandfather role over in his grave.
However as a youth I had a constant very unusual doodle that I would repeat over and over while in school or otherwise bored as a child but confined to a desk or room somewhere.
But then not to many years ago and after my turn-about in life my father gave my grandfathers Greek NT with an english interline. In it I found some old notes of his, some of which recorded fellowship in the form of one or two dollars from the rather poor Christian assemblies that he had spoken at
On the back of one of them and much to my surprise was the exact same unusual doodle but done by him many years earlier than I had done so many times and have to this day never seen anywhere else
Go figure
Blessings
Doug
I am not sure what you are saying Doug are you saying, never mind could you put that in a simplier fashion? :dontknow:
Genetic inheritance maybe :winkgrin:
Same thing Paul is saying
What is in our 'family tree" is passed on down to us
Quote from: Livelystone on June 12, 2009, 06:52:23 AM
Same thing Paul is saying
What is in our 'family tree" is passed on down to us
Thank you I do agree we have some of both our parents traits.
My mother still says the apple don't fall far from the tree, I have to agree.
I have traits I appreciate and some I don't.
I am still so glad that we are not reincarnated into someone else, God will get rid of the bad with purification and we are still same person.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 12, 2009, 03:37:46 AM
:cloud9: NO, we are not reincarnated. Reincarnation is a works of the flesh doctrine, because it tenants imply you can obtain salvation (eventually) apart from the work of the cross and the Lord. This is being visited heavily right now among it's New Age proponents, who are taking advantage of the flock.
They usually cite cases of children or people have provable "past lives". What they have is a familiar spirit; called "familiar" because it was in the person of the past that it is now trying to convince the new host, THEY are. From such, RUN. Blessings....
Cardinal, I am undecided on this and not that concerned about it either. What matters is the cross.
But, wasn't reincarnation believed in the early church? You also mention
Quotebecause it tenants imply you can obtain salvation (eventually) apart from the work of the cross and the Lord.
...... What if you keep coming back until you are born again in the Spirit, not getting a little bit 'better' with each new lifetime as your quote implies. If someone does have to come back, I consider that punishment.
There was an article just a day to 2 ago about some kid having dreams about being a pilot in WW2 and he gave a lot of detail. ARe you suggesting the pilot's spirt is trying to deceive the child or the same spirit that was a host in the pilot is now trying to enter the child?
Martin, if I may,
I believe the warning about mediums in the bible is because people can understand the natural spiritual transferance of thoughts and then begin to either believe or become deceived that we can control and manipulate it and turn it into an avenue for something it is not.
I experienced this just this week. I had a thought about a friend and I e-mailed him he wrote back "Funny, I was just thinking about you yesterday and wondering how you were doing"
While there are some that will try to manipulate and "make" something like that happen as a matter of ability or control, it is simply about responding to it "as" it happens.
The more we just allow things to be as they are, the more aware we can become to whats going on. There was nothing there that makes my friend or I special, we do not have some "ability", there was just a responding to the spirit.
Quote from: Zero7 on June 13, 2009, 06:00:38 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 12, 2009, 03:37:46 AM
But, wasn't reincarnation believed in the early church? You also mention Quotebecause it tenants imply you can obtain salvation (eventually) apart from the work of the cross and the Lord.
...... What if you keep coming back until you are born again in the Spirit, not getting a little bit 'better' with each new lifetime as your quote implies. If someone does have to come back, I consider that punishment.
There was an article just a day to 2 ago about some kid having dreams about being a pilot in WW2 and he gave a lot of detail. ARe you suggesting the pilot's spirt is trying to deceive the child or the same spirit that was a host in the pilot is now trying to enter the child?
:cloud9: Hi zero....No, reincarnation was not believed by the early church. As far as I know, the Budhists and some Indian/Pakistani groups like the Hindus are the only ones that believe in reincarnation, until the New Ager's picked up this eastern mysticism doctrine, which hit this country in the 60's as a result of the Beatles and Hollywood celebrities going involving themselves with a "guru" and his "teachings".
If you've ever read any of it, one proponent of it, said that Jesus Christ was the 33rd incarnation of Adam. Just in case that "fruit" didn't convince you, let me say again that it is works-based, and the obviously the root problem with that is, if we could do it by our works, then what did we need Him and the cross for?
Additionally, although this may not mean much to you, if you have never witnessed or experienced an evil spirit being cast out of anyone, but I have probably a thousand times + and have first hand witness experience with this particular spirit and I can tell anyone willing to listen, what a vicious and evil thing this is to get to let go of someone's soul.
I read that article in the news. Again, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I'm saying that the PILOT was the host of that familiar spirit, that then entered the boy, who became it's new host. I have seen spirits leaving that were in a particular family for 3 generations at least.
These things are part of what contaminates the bloodline of Adam; when He said He would remember their sins to them unto the 3rd and 4th generation, this was what He was talking about, ie. this IS the BONDAGE of the corruption (death; those things produce death) we have been lowered into.
It's nothing to be ashamed of, as an army without something to fight, like an unused muscle, is weak and useless, untried. But it IS something that we have to seek the Lord's face on, in repentance (means to change the mind/heart), and is why He told us to work out our own salvation (word there also means deliverance) with fear and trembling.
When He begins this work of sanctification in us (same principle as the priests trimming the wicks daily) casting out those things that come from the heart of man, which is continually wicked all the day long, it's not a pretty sight sometimes.
But THIS works, is a work of the Holy Ghost, and is one of the reason it was said that the Holy Ghost does the works, and this privilege was purchased for us with the cost of His blood. Blessings....
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 13, 2009, 06:06:57 PM...it is simply about responding to it "as" it happens.
The more we just allow things to be as they are, the more aware we can become to whats going on. There was nothing there that makes my friend or I special, we do not have some "ability", there was just a responding to the spirit.
Yup! I'm not bothered by it happening. Happens to me daily, even if it's just moments like you mentioned, [a good example being making something to eat for someone that lives with you, and they didn't say anything, but it was the very thing they were thinking of that day or all week but hadn't said anything about,] but when you're trying to explain it to others, that's when things can get a bit sticky. And what I was trying to explain was just a wee bit further along than being on the same page with someone of some distance from you. Many people's love in their hearts is at least to that level to where they'll at least tune into that. How many folks did they mean to call somebody and that was the very week they were out of here by natural causes or something truly odd?? The main thing is seeking Him with all of our hearts, particularly in the Written Word, and then just trust that the Seed is growing in us and baring fruit as we're avoiding offenses and doing what we know to do, and then just simply trust those love impulses to step out on something the Holy Spirit wouldn't have any resistance to or particular beef with beyond that, as you'd understand it from the Word at the time, as well as His previous dealings with you.
Quote from: SQ on June 12, 2009, 01:46:43 AM
I am in hopes I can figure this out with the help of all of you.
I really am not sure through the purification process are we reincarnated?
The thought of ever being another person does not appeal to me, the truth does.
I have wanted to ask this for a while but now is the time.
What have most of you gleaned about reincarnation?
Be gentle with :HeartThrob: please.
The main thing with reincarnation as we typically hear about it has to do with good and bad karma or something of that nature.
When you die, the better you lived, the greater you will be in the next life. I suppose though thats a matter of perspective. What actually is great? It is more things that no one can actually prove or disprove.
Some can get quite fanatical, I suppose a tree being cut down could be someones dead grandparent. Hmm, what kind of person would you have to be to get the honor of coming back as a TREE? But, then again, some beautiful things of honor and purpose can be made of wood. Perhaps someone was a log burnt on a freezing night that saved someones life.....
There in lies, in my opinion, the truth, is anything truly worthless? Is a single blade of grass unimportant? I think we can show from the proper perspective that all things regaurdless of our opinion can have worth if we had all knowledge. Are we alive so we can die and be reprocessed to aid in the continuation of life here on earth?
Well, I believe all things can be seen the perspective of our journey, we keep our hope not in the man Christ, but in what he stands for. Perfection, the hope that we will be perfect one day. All religions, all forms of belief, all perspectives desire to end the pain, the misery and suffering, so, some truth can be seen in all of them.
I do not think reincarnation is about living good to come back as what we desire. It is to live better each day in understanding and love of one another so that we can offer life to those who's outlook is hoping to avoid pain after they die.
I think you have figured it out, but the simplicity of it makes it seem unimportant.
:icon_flower:
OK, SQ,
As the Father leads —
We are not reincarnated.
We are born again.
First from water.
Then of the Spirit.
Inside every person is the seed of the Spirit
Once Faith is activated it begins to grow.
There comes a time when your spirit man will supersede your physical man.
A 50/50 point, if you will. An overlap will occur.
After that, your spiritual man will affect and direct your whole being.
You flesh is now left behind as you pursue the things of the Spirit.
Things will change, as your perceptions become more acute to everlasting realities instead of the temporal.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 14, 2009, 03:07:54 AMThe main thing with reincarnation as we typically hear about it has to do with good and bad karma or something of that nature.
And Galatians 3:13 about our being redeemed from the curse and numerous other passages to the same effect say the same thing: "Karma" is a non-issue. Ephesians 2:13 says we're brought near and only brought near by the Blood of Jesus Christ -- not by what we go through from seemingly meaningless voyage to seemingly meaningless voyage through the eons of countless identities, etc. No man comes to the Father but by the Blood of Jesus is the constant cry of Ephesians 2:13, Hebrews chapters 9 and 10, 1John 1:7, Colossians 1:20, Romans 5:9, and countless other passages. His Blood, rather than trying to come up with enough of our own dying in some worthy battle of the spirit for Him, as in the underlying implication of the epic Hindu Gita that says in chapter 4:4 things to the effect of whenever He's needed, He'll reincarnate. No, a thousand times no!
This goes back to your primary picture of God ultimately, as Hinduism indicates in that primary example, and the New Testament is clear that Jesus Christ died once and is never to die again, because death no longer has dominion because the death that He died was to sin once for all, and He now spends the rest of His time with His life to God. Perhaps the sheer number of people that are alive on the planet and that have lived for thousands of years staggers some minds that surely God's not having this many kids, [i.e. like cockroaches,] but indeed He is, so that ultimately a belief in reincarnation cuts the foundation out from under the promise given by God to Abraham of Seed as the stars of heaven and as the sand by the seashore in multitude.
Presupposing the promise given by God to Abraham to be literally what God was saying from His perspective rather than from Abraham's, since God was offering rather than hearing that as a prayer request from Abraham's limited perspective of the world around him and the stars of heaven without a microscope, and presupposing the scientists are accurate in how many stars they've been perceiving that God has created, then we've got quite a few more generations to go before that promise can ultimately be fulfilled. And, if you add reincarnation to the mix, you might as well be talking ET from Abraham's perspective 'cause if the books have to be adjusted for all of the repeat lives, then the promise of his having that many kids is as vain as the fundamentalist will try to make the promise of the universal restoration because of the pedestal that they've placed sin upon as one of the pillars of their faith that even the big bad Christ can't ultimately defeat it in every heart. So, it's an area of blasphemy and mockery of the promises of God on both counts, whether ET or reincarnation.
Hi SQ , you asked ,Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
I believe Jesus taught against it ..
Herod was believing in reincarnation thinking Jesus was the carnate of John the baptist here Mar 6:14 And king Herod heard [of him]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him. [Jesus]
we have to be careful what we eat [swallow] this bread of leaven is dangerous
the Bread we are to eat is of the body of Jesus Christ .. the meaning in Mark 8 of having no bread [food for thought ]
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.
leavenStrong's G2219 - zymē 1) leaven
2) metaph. of inveterate mental and moral corruption, viewed in its tendency to infect othersLeaven is applied to that substance which is small in quantity, yet thoroughly pervades a thing by its influence. The NT uses it in both a positive (cf. Mat 13:33) or negative sense (e.g., "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump").
hope this helps some
:icon_flower:
Thanks everyone, you have helped me very much. :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on June 14, 2009, 03:33:01 AM
Hi SQ , you asked ,Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
I believe Jesus taught against it ..
Herod was believing in reincarnation thinking Jesus was the carnate of John the baptist here Mar 6:14 And king Herod heard [of him]; (for his name was spread abroad:) and he said, That John the Baptist was risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves in him. [Jesus]
we have to be careful what we eat [swallow] this bread of leaven is dangerous
the Bread we are to eat is of the body of Jesus Christ .. the meaning in Mark 8 of having no bread [food for thought ]
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.
leavenStrong's G2219 - zymē 1) leaven
2) metaph. of inveterate mental and moral corruption, viewed in its tendency to infect othersLeaven is applied to that substance which is small in quantity, yet thoroughly pervades a thing by its influence. The NT uses it in both a positive (cf. Mat 13:33) or negative sense (e.g., "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump").
hope this helps some
:icon_flower:
So if we accept what you seem to trying to say in the part of your post that I have highlighted in bold that there is no repetition of one person/spirit later and within the form of another body then do we just go ahead and toss out scriptures that teach otherwise?
In order to establish doctrine as suitable for the edification of God's children and ourselves as acceptable and approved by God knowing how to rightly divide the word we are required to "hear all witness" and that no verses in God's Holy Word that touch on the subject at hand remain "silent and "unheard"
Having said that lets take a look at some other scriptures that deal with the subject of the spirit of former prophets and messengers re-appearing in the body of another individual in a different time period
Mal.4: 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:Mal.3: 1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Matthew 3:3
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Matthew 11:10
For
this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mark 1:2
As it is written in the prophets,
Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mark 1:3
The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Matt 17: 9 And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying,
Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, T
hat Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.So Rosered in light of what I have quoted from the Bible concerning what both the prophets and Jesus spoke of those who had lived many years before re-appearing both in prophecy and then witnessed again through the fulfillment of said prophecy in the body of John the Baptist,.......
ONE CANNOT DENEY THAT JESUS DID IN FACT TEACH REINCARNATION !!!To say or teach otherwise would be as you say it to introduce leaven into the Word of God and therefore corrupt it :thumbsup:
Blessings
Doug
:cloud9: Hi; I don't think that this proves reincarnation. I think what these scriptures are pointing to is the Spirit that Elijah HAD and was ultimately caught up into, will come as the manifestation of the prophet part of Christ. The spirit of Elijah was ON John the Baptist, who was also a prophet, not IN Him, which is why Jesus said of those born AMONG WOMEN, there was none greater, but nevertheless the least in the Kingdom of God was greater than he.
While I am waiting on illumination about some sort of possible transference thru the bloodline, even if true, that still wouldn't uphold the doctrines surrounding reincarnation. Blessings....
In that case I have to ask what is the second coming of Christ if we are not to be resurrected as some other grain (different spirit)
Are we not looking for the man Jesus (spirit) to return of that same man (spirit) to walk on earth as many sons but in different bodies that are in His likeness and not that what we were first born with?
Who is the messenger below preparing the way today?........... hopefully some posters here
Mal.3: 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
The words "his temple" points to those who have already been given the Holy Spirit and the repentance that was message of John........ that is what made them "his temple".
That verse is speaking of today and NOT John the Baptist yet it is the same spirit of Elias that caused John the Baptist to called to Elias being raise again. Those who come forth today preaching repentance and the reading of the law as those who came back unto Jerusalem from "out of Babylon" spoken of in Nehemiah are Elias and John the Baptist together but as "one new flesh"
Reincarnation is not the best term and is a word that smells of "some other gospel" but the fact remains that familiar seeds are passed down both physically and spiritually.
Blessings
Doug
Thanks Card for the explaination sis :cloud9:
Hi Doug ,
It will help if you read Mark 8 about the Bread of Life from heaven Jesus Christ
man shall ''NOT live by bread Alone ''
but every Word that proceeds out of the MOUTH OF GOD
we have the Law and prophets , this to me represents /stands for /symbolizes the Old and ,
of course the New testimonies ...Witness'es BOTH are signifigant ,
and the SAME SPIRIT , ONE GOD fulfills them all
every promise and every Word
when some one comes along and changes the TRUTH , it is no longer
Pure /Holy and that my friend is what corrupts .enslaves us to the unclean thing
Babylon continues in Gods judgments in that case .
I do Not believe for one minute the Lord Jesus Christ taught reincarnation , but warns us to beware of it !
mans vain imaginations is what results and continues in that lie of corrupting the Truth
we are warned by Jesus also ''to be careful How we hear !''
the true treasure and seed planted in our hearts must remain pure and holy before God .......less the mixing and corruption sets in and is taken away .....
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
God bless rosered :icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Livelystone on June 14, 2009, 05:53:05 PM
In that case I have to ask what is the second coming of Christ if we are not to be resurrected as some other grain (different spirit)
Are we not looking for the man Jesus (spirit) to return of that same man (spirit) to walk on earth as many sons but in different bodies that are in His likeness and not that what we were first born with?
Who is the messenger below preparing the way today?........... hopefully some posters here
Mal.3: 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
The words "his temple" points to those who have already been given the Holy Spirit and the repentance that was message of John........ that is what made them "his temple".
That verse is speaking of today and NOT John the Baptist yet it is the same spirit of Elias that caused John the Baptist to called to Elias being raise again. Those who come forth today preaching repentance and the reading of the law as those who came back unto Jerusalem from "out of Babylon" spoken of in Nehemiah are Elias and John the Baptist together but as "one new flesh"
Reincarnation is not the best term and is a word that smells of "some other gospel" but the fact remains that familiar seeds are passed down both physically and spiritually.
Blessings
Doug
Hi Doug , nice talking with you ,
I agree the poor word reincarnation is not the best explaination process
and the thing is most likely misunderstood .
the Spirit of something verses the same person over and over again trying to get it right ?
that to me is the fatal flaw in reincarnation
reincarnation
1858, from re- "back, again" + incarnation (q.v.). The verb reincarnate also is attested from 1858.re·in·car·na·tion (rē'ĭn-kär-nā'shən)
n.
Rebirth of the soul in another body.
A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment: "The brownstone had already endured one reincarnation: In the 1940's, it was converted into eight studio apartments" (Ben Lloyd).noun 1. the belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.
2. rebirth of the soul in a new body.
3. a new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.
to me there is a spiritual body and of course the natual body
Paul explains this really well in 1Corinthians 15
but this to me is the 2 in one body , we see in many of the new testament scriptures
hope this may help some as well
God bless rosered :icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 14, 2009, 06:10:39 PM
Thanks Card for the explaination sis :cloud9:
Hi Doug ,
It will help if you read Mark 8 about the Bread of Life from heaven Jesus Christ
man shall "NOT live by bread Alone "
but every Word that proceeds out of the MOUTH OF GOD
we have the Law and prophets , this to me represents /stands for /symbolizes the Old and ,
of course the New testimonies ...Witness'es BOTH are signifigant ,
and the SAME SPIRIT , ONE GOD fulfills them all
every promise and every Word
when some one comes along and changes the TRUTH , it is no longer
Pure /Holy and that my friend is what corrupts .enslaves us to the unclean thing
Babylon continues in Gods judgments in that case .
I do Not believe for one minute the Lord Jesus Christ taught reincarnation , but warns us to beware of it !
mans vain imaginations is what results and continues in that lie of corrupting the Truth
we are warned by Jesus also "to be careful How we hear !"
the true treasure and seed planted in our hearts must remain pure and holy before God .......less the mixing and corruption sets in and is taken away .....
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
God bless rosered :icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
Rosered
First how about saving the insults for someone else ?
I have quoted scriptures (living by "every word" fulfilled) that YOU have left out that had you considered you may not have have fallen into the "traditions of man" through not considering "every word of God".
What do you think the prophecy of Jesus at the transformation is
Why do you think that John Who witnessed the transformation went to bow before and worship a fellow brother that had become so much like Jesus that John who had walked was fooled as to the identity of if we are not reincarnated (born again) into the same GLORY AND APPEARANCE THAT JESUS HAD WHILE WALKING ON EARTH AND APPEARING IN HEAVEN?
Pray tell ?
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on June 14, 2009, 06:26:26 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 14, 2009, 06:10:39 PM
Thanks Card for the explaination sis :cloud9:
Hi Doug ,
It will help if you read Mark 8 about the Bread of Life from heaven Jesus Christ
man shall "NOT live by bread Alone "
but every Word that proceeds out of the MOUTH OF GOD
we have the Law and prophets , this to me represents /stands for /symbolizes the Old and ,
of course the New testimonies ...Witness'es BOTH are signifigant ,
and the SAME SPIRIT , ONE GOD fulfills them all
every promise and every Word
when some one comes along and changes the TRUTH , it is no longer
Pure /Holy and that my friend is what corrupts .enslaves us to the unclean thing
Babylon continues in Gods judgments in that case .
I do Not believe for one minute the Lord Jesus Christ taught reincarnation , but warns us to beware of it !
mans vain imaginations is what results and continues in that lie of corrupting the Truth
we are warned by Jesus also "to be careful How we hear !"
the true treasure and seed planted in our hearts must remain pure and holy before God .......less the mixing and corruption sets in and is taken away .....
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
God bless rosered :icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
Rosered
First how about saving the insults for someone else ?
I have quoted scriptures (living by "every word" fulfilled) that YOU have left out that had you considered you may not have have fallen into the "traditions of man" through not considering "every word of God".
What do you think the prophecy of Jesus at the transformation is
Why do you think that John Who witnessed the transformation went to bow before and worship a fellow brother that had become so much like Jesus that John who had walked was fooled as to the identity of if we are not reincarnated (born again) into the same GLORY AND APPEARANCE THAT JESUS HAD WHILE WALKING ON EARTH AND APPEARING IN HEAVEN?
Pray tell ?
Doug
Wow Doug , sorry you took that as an insult /offense bro
That was
Never my intentions :sigh:
born again of Spirit and Life
is most certainly what I can and do agree with .
maybe I just have a problem with the word and term reincarnation ?
and what the term reincarntion stands for in many different religions .
If that is the case , my apologies to you for the offense :mblush:
It is always a red flag to me when many ideas begin to flow out from it .
we are each waiting on the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ and manifest in our lives to the fullest revelation and truth .
peace be unto you .. :icon_flower:
two trees,two roots,two spirits...Old Adam and new man in
Christ.
Only the 'born again' seed is shown the door out of this
realm,into the temple.....the other'familiar' spirits are blinded
just like in Lots day from entry into the angel of His presence
[God's temple in heaven is opened/HIS BODY Rev 12;9
Rev 22;15]
They are 'outside' because they originate from their
father,the devil/liar.....NEVER AGAIN WILL THE UNCLEAN AND
UNCIRCUMCIZED ENTER YOU AGAIN.Rev 21;17
Illegitimate fire...
satan himself caused fire to fall from heaven.......
our God.spirit of LOVE..is a consuming fire...
the Holy spirit was as tongues of fire[it spoke truth]
satans spirit is illigetimate fire[liar from beginning]
there are waters of LIFE...and dragon floods to cause the
woman to be washed away.
there is a 'way' that seems 'good' to man,but it's end is death
this is of the tokogae....and there is a TREE OF LIFE OF WHICH
JESUS SAYS..I AM THE WAY AND THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE
Discernment of spirits is a gift,beware the deceiver.
Best to heed the advice of those blessed with discernment
to serve the body,and to pray for enlightenment.
The imposter/satan,presents himself as an angel of light..
but the 'light' that is in him,is actually 'darkness'
Little children,Beware
Cardinal, I do not want to hijack this thread talking about near death experiences but if reincarnation is a bunch of baloney, then there are many many people being deceived during their NDE's. And that in itself is quite scary.
I still don't see a conflict with scripture if you take the view you come back until you are born again in the spirit, not coming back and getting better and better with each new life.
I'm pretty confused now.
Quote from: Zero7 on June 15, 2009, 10:14:33 PM
Cardinal, I do not want to hijack this thread talking about near death experiences but if reincarnation is a bunch of baloney, then there are many many people being deceived during their NDE's. And that in itself is quite scary.
I still don't see a conflict with scripture if you take the view you come back until you are born again in the spirit, not coming back and getting better and better with each new life.
I'm pretty confused now.
From what I remember of reading through NDE accounts, the majority of people were saying that they saw something
like reincarnation happening, but that what it was, was so far beyond our concept of reincarnation, that they couldn't really describe it.
I have come to the conclusion that, while I believe NDE's are real experiences, I don't think we can count on them to reveal truth.
:cloud9: Hi Zero, well, I shared this dream/vision before; am wondering Doc if this might be something like they saw........
I was asleep, then taken up in the heavens in the stars by the Spirit. Was astonished to see like orbs of light with faces on them descending to the earth. I was allowed to hear their conversations with each other, via the hearing ear of the Spirit, as their conversations were in the Spirit.
They had JOY, which hit me as I was allowed to hear, and what they were discussing was their "missions", who was going to be who to whom, who was going to take an adversarial role to the other, and ALL KNEW that it was to give them an opportunity to grow and experience His love being inworked in them, which was the "mission" of all, regardless of the circumstances.
These were headed to be born in this world. I had no beliefs in place to "cover" this vision. Between that, and another one He gave me, I have no doubt we come here with full knowledge of our purpose and destiny initially, but the veil of forgetfulness comes upon us. This is why I believe it says, "OUR LIFE IS HID IN CHRIST." Now this is not as the tenant of reincarnation, but it sure proved pre-destination to me. Do with it as you will. Blessings......
That does remind me a bit of what some were saying. Some were more clearly reincarnation oriented, but not in the typical Hindu style. NDE accounts were consistent in "coming back" human, never as another life form. It was along the lines of being shown the effect on themselves and others of the life they'd just led (life-review), and then they were given the opportunity to choose a new mortal life (with guided assistance) to learn more lessons, choose parents, etc. Sometimes on different worlds than earth, even. Pretty far-out stuff, actually. Some insisted that Deja Vu experiences are flashbacks from former lives.
I was just reminded of this scripture;
Weymouth translation: Hebrews 9
9:24 For not into a Holy place built by men's hands--a mere copy of the reality--did Christ enter, but He entered Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
9:25 Nor did He enter for the purpose of many times offering Himself in sacrifice, just as the High Priest enters the Holy place, year after year, taking with him blood not his own.
9:26 In that case Christ would have needed to suffer many times, from the creation of the world onwards; but as a matter of fact He has appeared once for all, at the Close of the Ages, in order to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
9:27 And since it is reserved for all mankind once to die, and afterwards to be judged;
9:28 so the Christ also, having been once offered in sacrifice in order that He might bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, separated from sin, to those who are eagerly expecting Him, to make their salvation complete.
Quote from: Zero7 on June 13, 2009, 06:00:38 PM
What if you keep coming back until you are born again in the Spirit, not getting a little bit 'better' with each new lifetime as your quote implies. If someone does have to come back, I consider that punishment.
That would mean there would be less and less people on earth because each 'turn' less are reborn.
I seem to remeber a verse that about another walk around the mountain if you do things wrong.
Can't find the verse right now. Anyone?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 15, 2009, 11:28:12 PM
Quote from: Zero7 on June 13, 2009, 06:00:38 PM
What if you keep coming back until you are born again in the Spirit, not getting a little bit 'better' with each new lifetime as your quote implies. If someone does have to come back, I consider that punishment.
That would mean there would be less and less people on earth because each 'turn' less are reborn.
I seem to remeber a verse that about another walk around the mountain if you do things wrong.
Can't find the verse right now. Anyone?
None of us even remotely understands the process of being born once much less over and over again so I think this question stumps us right from the beginning.
There does seem to be a process of regeneration for all living things until perfection is attained, at least this is what I gather from the whole Bible. God is making something in His image and He will work until it is completed. He did liken Himself to a potter who made a pot and smashed it and made it again. There is some 'reincarnation' for ya.
Good thread.
cp
"I shall pass this way, but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to that of another – let me not defer, nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way, again."
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, expecting different results.
The content of a near death experience, varies with culture or religious belief.
A NEAR DEATH experience, but NOT actually DEAD, is much in lines with a near-miss auto accident; STILL ALIVE.
Peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on June 16, 2009, 04:31:43 AM
"I shall pass this way, but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to that of another – let me not defer, nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way, again."
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, expecting different results.
The content of a near death experience, varies with culture or religious belief.
A NEAR DEATH experience, but NOT actually DEAD, is much in lines with a near-miss auto accident; STILL ALIVE.
Peacemaker
Just wanted to note a few fine points here. The content does vary with culture or religious belief, but not always in ways you'd expect (in fact, I'd say not usually in ways you'd expect). Much of what people experience often goes against or heavily modifies what they believed previously, regardless of what the prior belief was (such as in the case of atheists). Also, the name Near Death experience is a broad categorical name and is applied simply because these people came back to life, but many/ most of them were actually verifiably clinically dead.
There are many common fears when it comes to an impending thought of death. However, few do experience a sense of peace.
A clinical diagnosis [of death] is based on the signs and symptoms, which applies to a set of circumstances where brain activity ceases despite the continuance of body functions, or the lack thereof. And this is by human examination of the person with the use of a standard analogy predicated on the basis of a comparison, inferred; life and death. Thus, coming to a conclusion according to human observation, as "to hint or suggest" that actual death has occurred, although narrowly avoiding death itself (NDE) would be more correct – for the dead know nothing.
"Exaggerations do not imply falsehood or fabrication; they are merely the thoughts, or mental activity of the person at the time."
Deep in thought, as death is imminent.
Peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on June 16, 2009, 07:29:19 AMfor the dead know nothing.
The dead know nothing that's useful to the living. Ecclesiastes was Solomon's confessional of all of his sins, including consulting mediums. The living and the dead are exactly the same to the Lord according to other Scriptures.
HE IS LORD BOTH OF THE LIVING AND THE DEAD :gthumbsup:
Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
If God is not God of the dead but still He is God of everything then there are no dead....?
Physical or Spiritual?
How about both? :laughing7:
God created and owns everything. So IMO that includes everything you can think of.
Including spiritual and physical...
I think the following is twisting the verse...
But what if the verse is not saying "I God are the God of everyone."
But instead:
"For spiritual dead I'm not God because they believe in other gods or no gods at all."
Today I was reading again about reincarnation , something a brother wrote on another forum
and it makes perfect sense to me !! :icon_flower:
I know that some of them '' memories'' and'' de ja vous '' some experience
without knowing what is going on and speak of past lives they have lived , they come though dreams / subconscience thought
this could very well be the demonic oppression and wiles of satan , Jesus warns us about and the new testament writers
the familiar spirits /the dead that though the carnal thought process causes many to Act on and feed the reincarnation story for many generations
this is the binding on earth/ heaven and loosing on earth / heaven that Jesus tells us of ?
and tells us with Him we have that power over them/ evil spirits /the dead when we by faith in Christ who is in you is greater than anything the world whirrls you way ?
your are His little one /sheep But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
we got to stick together [ One Spirit /one Faith /one God in agreement ] His Body of believers
in the love of God and against evil in every form in us / we got to fight against the LIES that bind us and cling to the Truth and Life /hid in Jesus Christ the power of God and knowledge of God sent to save us and free us from sin / body of death /hell [grave]
:icon_flower:
QuoteHistory records that the early Christine church believed in Reincarnation and of the souls journey back to oneness with God. This all changed by Emperial decree some 500 plus years after the death of Christ.
Emperor Justinian in 545 A.D. was able to apply the full power of Rome and his authority to stop the belief in reincarnation. He forced the ruling cardinals to draft a papal decree stating that anyone who believes that souls come from God and return to God will be punished by death. The actual decree stated:
"If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. (The Anathemas against Origen), attached to the decrees of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, A.D. 545, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d ser., 14: 318)."
.....
Reincarnation is one of the Lost Doctrines of Christianity.
Full article: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm (http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm)
And: http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html (http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen.html)
Pleanty of links to other articles at the bottom of the page.
Reincarnation I believe came from an understanding that everyone would eventually be redeemed, but through as many Judgments as needed before reaching salvation. But the people in Eastern Religions never even heard of Jesus.
I like the idea that the scriptures contain a record. "Who has believed our report". Of certain things we have clear testimony in the scriptures. As Jesus responded to temptation on the mount, "It is written". While not being bound to the letter, we are nevertheless instructed through the "oracles of God" and those things spoken, and then written and recorded by faithful scribes, to pay close attention to the prophetic word as a lamp shining in a dark place. So, although there are many things that "may be" and a few things that might be "hinted at".... we are exhorted to resort to the writings for confirmation.
I see no need to get all freaked out when people are speculating about reincarnation or anti-deluvian civilization or the sons of God going into the daughters of men..... all things we may have glimpses of here and there- but when people begin to build doctrine and teach their speculations as doctrine it loses its entertainment value and becomes the kind of stuff Paul warned against. Interesting conversation perhaps, but it is written that it is given unto man once to die..... then comes the judgment. In the light of the warnings given by Jesus, Paul, James, Peter and Jude in the writings- Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?(John the Baptist)
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
(1Th 1:10)
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(Rev 6:16-17)
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(Rev 11:18)
It almost seems to me that there is, among some in UR, a desire to do away with the scriptures clear testimonies, as if there is no clear testimony of anything pertaining to wrath and judgment. I believe that mercy will triumph over judgment. I believe in punishment with a purpose of correction. But I see to much plainly spoken by Jesus, the chief cornerstone, and the apostles who are the 12 foundations stones, to buy into a gospel where everything that speaks to wrath is done away with and replaced by a form of Hinduism, the teachings of the Brahmans, etc.
At the very least, re-incarnation is certainly no "lost doctrine of Christianity". UR is plainly witnessed in many verses with no question remaining to the reader of those verses. I would like someone to show me similar verses relating to re-incarnation. If that happens, I will repent :o)
:cloud9: :thumbsup: