Tentmaker Forum

Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

If He did, this would contradict too many scriptures. The dead know nothing. (The bible tells me so.)

So what does this mean:

1 Peter 3:18-22 CLV  seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,  (19)  in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,  (20)  He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,  (21)  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  (22)  Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

1. Notice, it does not say He went to dead humans and preached to them.
2. Notice, it does not say He preached to anyone but "heralds".
3. Notice, the heralding was not to humans but to spirits.
4. Notice, He did not do this WHILE dead but after He was vivified (brought back to life).

I believe the spirits which were incarcerated were stubborn to what they were supposed to be doing during that wicked time. It is possible they were trying to wreck Noah's building of the ark so God had to jail them. Christ, after He was vivified, went to them and heralded to them most likely that He is now conquered all.

And what about this verse:

1 Peter 4:1-6 CLV  Christ, then, having suffered for our sakes in flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same thought, for he who is suffering in flesh has ceased his sins,  (2)  2 by no means still to spend the rest of his lifetime in the flesh in human desires, but in the will of God."  (3)  For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries, drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries,  (4)  while they are thinking it strange of you not to race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;"  (5)  who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.  (6)  For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."

"The dead" that the evangel was brought to were the same ones in Jesus' day when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." They were not literally dead but they were the ones dead to God . . . the ones not following Christ.

Those dead [to God] the evangel went to were to be judged (set straight) as to their lifestyles as revealed in verses 3 & 4 above. If they were alive [to God] they would not have been involved in those bad things. So the evangel went to them "so that they should be living to God, in spirit."

So, did Christ go to dead people while He was dead? No.

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 08:45:08 PM
Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

Quote"The dead" that the evangel was brought to were the same ones in Jesus' day when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." They were not literally dead but they were the ones dead to God . . . the ones not following Christ.

QuoteSo, did Christ go to dead people while He was dead? No.

While Jesus was dead in what form did He preach?
Natural body? -> guess not otherwise He would have risen much earlier as 3 days.
Spiritual body? -> Noone recognised Him?

QuoteHe heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water

'brought safely through the water' [in the ark.  What does the water signify in this verse, such that they would need to be inside the ark to make it safely through?  Does this have a symbolic meaning?

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 08:45:08 PM
Did Christ preach to the dead while dead?

If He did, this would contradict too many scriptures. The dead know nothing. (The bible tells me so.)

So what does this mean:

1 Peter 3:18-22 CLV  seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,  (19)  in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,  (20)  He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,  (21)  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  (22)  Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

1. Notice, it does not say He went to dead humans and preached to them.
2. Notice, it does not say He preached to anyone but "heralds".
3. Notice, the heralding was not to humans but to spirits.
4. Notice, He did not do this WHILE dead but after He was vivified (brought back to life).

I believe the spirits which were incarcerated were stubborn to what they were supposed to be doing during that wicked time. It is possible they were trying to wreck Noah's building of the ark so God had to jail them. Christ, after He was vivified, went to them and heralded to them most likely that He is now conquered all.

And what about this verse:

1 Peter 4:1-6 CLV  Christ, then, having suffered for our sakes in flesh, you also arm yourselves with the same thought, for he who is suffering in flesh has ceased his sins,  (2)  2 by no means still to spend the rest of his lifetime in the flesh in human desires, but in the will of God."  (3)  For sufficient is the time which has passed by to have effected the intention of the nations, having gone on in wantonness, lusts, debauches, revelries, drinking bouts, and illicit idolatries,  (4)  while they are thinking it strange of you not to race together into the same puddle of profligacy, calumniating you;"  (5)  who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.  (6)  For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit."

"The dead" that the evangel was brought to were the same ones in Jesus' day when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." They were not literally dead but they were the ones dead to God . . . the ones not following Christ.

Those dead [to God] the evangel went to were to be judged (set straight) as to their lifestyles as revealed in verses 3 & 4 above. If they were alive [to God] they would not have been involved in those bad things. So the evangel went to them "so that they should be living to God, in spirit."

So, did Christ go to dead people while He was dead? No.

Makes no sense, I agree, if viewed with our 'natural' eyes. This is spiritual as are all of Gods words.

I think the spirit of the message is that the divine in us suffers by living in this flesh. 'He' suffers to the point of dying yet only really dying to the flesh and thus vivified in spirit.

The spirits in jail seem to me to be that which is within me that is of God yet bound by carnal strongholds.

I see the baptism that is saving us as a spiritual happening and it is interesting that Noahs story REPRESENTS this spiritual happening. The whole story of Noah is occurring within me right now IMO.

Jesus Christ preaching to the dead is the Light chasing away all darkness within my essence.

WW, Jesus was in good spiritual form while doing this for that is what He is!

cp

Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2009, 09:17:59 PM

QuoteHe heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water

'brought safely through the water' [in the ark.  What does the water signify in this verse, such that they would need to be inside the ark to make it safely through?  Does this have a symbolic meaning?

Adversity, carnality maybe?

cp

Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2009, 09:17:59 PM

QuoteHe heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water

'brought safely through the water' [in the ark.  What does the water signify in this verse, such that they would need to be inside the ark to make it safely through?  Does this have a symbolic meaning?

?
The sea Below and the sea above,? :icon_flower:

the flood Psa 18:4, Psa 17:13 , The dead sea where all FLESH remain until Lifted by His Spirit , Noah and the ark symbolize THIS REST= HIM , saving 8 - (new begginings) souls..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.

Those who are dead and in prison are those still in there gaves, figuratively speaking, being DEAD to him, jail is likened to Bondage, which again refers to the flesh\Old C.old man ...Tis through the symbolising of Baptism, Dying to the flesh ,we are saved\being saved in HIM, again through Noah as a type who preached the Coming of the Flood , if they remained then they would PERISH, through faith 8 souls were saved in HIM ,again symbolising Both Old and new Cs..

ALL TYPES SHADOWS AND PATTERS.. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.

Yes but doesn't water denote spirit?  Is death a spirit, then?  Christ carries us safely through evil spirits which are all around us [drowning us in the water of death]?

Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2009, 10:03:12 PM

Quote from: Taffy..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.

Yes but doesn't water denote spirit?  Is death a spirit, then?  Christ carries us safely through evil spirits which are all around us [drowning us in the water of death]?

ill rephrase this Molly

Terms normally have Both Negative and positive meanings, I see floods in this case  to mean a Place of the wicked= ungodly men [Wicked  meaning Those of the flesh, those who remain in the old C)

equally so..Spiirits are either one of two..we are of HIM or we are of the flesh , ie Test the the spirits :icon_flower:,, a spirit of Death if you will or a spirit of LIFE

Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."

Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."

Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

Hi T man  :icon_flower:
I thought I wasin agreeance with you T over the figurative DEAD and to the latter  :dontknow:

Noah was a Type Tony, through Him he preached


Psalms 142:6 Attend unto my cry; for I am brought very low: deliver me from my persecutors; for they are stronger than I.

Psalms 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Ecc 4:13 Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished.

Ecc 4:14 For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

the Ark Took 120 Yrs to  prepare   the same time  He preached to the wicked  ,120 yrs is figurative of the End of the Flesh , as is  the end of Moses Life which also is Figurative of the End of the Old C...as when God declares his spirit will no longer  with MAN.,,e ...

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



:icon_flower:

Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels [messengers] that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Pet 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those [flesh and blood humans] that after should live ungodly;

Quote from: Molly on September 21, 2009, 10:03:12 PM

Quote from: Taffy..guided safely through the waters of DEATH.

Yes but doesn't water denote spirit?  Is death a spirit, then?  Christ carries us safely through evil spirits which are all around us [drowning us in the water of death]?

If You see the waters as the waters of the Deep Molly a Type ,  place of The wicked , where the dead Live  The Ministration of Death ,then Yes its the Death of a Spirit ,

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years


What dies is The Spirit of the WICKED, carnal Man.... But Through Death Comes the Spirit of Life...i can see two fold meaning..as Fire Cleanses the Flesh then also does the spirit [ water] of life, but both quench the Flesh
:icon_flower:

The Spirit within restores, bringing the order of things to it's original state; leading us beside quite waters, and guiding us in the paths of righteousness. Even though, we have walked in the valley of the shadow of Death from the leading of the Soul.

Whatever you truly believe at the conscious and subconscious levels of the mind (within the soul), manifests itself; good or evil.  But where no conflict exists with the SPIRIT; there is life.

Do we not have a Spirit, body and soul?

And, does not the SPIRIT, testify with our Spirit?

peacemaker

Psa 88:10  Will You perform wonders for the dead? Will the departed spirits rise and praise You?

Num 16:22  But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"

Isa 14:9  "Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

Isa 26:14  The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.

Isa 26:19  Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."

Hebrews 12:23 (CLT)...
22 But you have come to mount Zion, and the city of the living God, celestial Jerusalem, and to ten thousand messengers,
23 to a universal convocation, and to the ecclesia of the firstborn, registered in the heavens, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the just perfected,
24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a fresh covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which is speaking better than Abel.

This phrase speaks of humans from the perspective of their being spirits:  "...to the spirits of the just perfected..."  Young's Literal has:  "...to spirits of righteous men made perfect..."

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

Preaching and heralding are very close.  Look up the occurrences of kerusso, kerux, kerugma.  Consider that the keyword Knoch gave to it was PROCLAIM and that Knoch's definition is:  "Make known publicly with authority beforehand."  Many theologians have compared kerugma and didache as preaching/teaching.  To a certain extent it seems such distinctions approach straining at gnats.

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

I am not convinced.  The whole context is the people that perished in the Great Deluge.  People are spirits in bodies.  The Rephaim that Isaiah (26:14) seems to indicate have no resurrection, are these the spirits to whom you think he was "announcing" as His Father commissions Him?  These were possibly hybrids "of renown" born of "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."  Are these the origin of the "myths" concerning what they considered "the gods" handed down to ancient peoples?  Many people think not.  I think maybe.  Were the sons of God those born of androgynous Adam before separation into male and female? or, were they of another creation, angels?

If, as you say, "Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people," then, "For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living" (Rm 14:9, CLT) makes Christ to be wasting His death.  As far as "The dead know nothing," (Ec 9) there is no reason to be speaking of anything more than a corpse.  You can even kick one and it wont kick back.  They know nothing.  It is clear that from James (2:26, CLT) "For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead."

I've previously brought out the fact (without rebuttal) that the apostle Paul teaches that the spirit apart from the body can experience things:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (CLT)...
2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak.

Here's another example of dead people, obviously not in the body, experiencing things with the aspect of the soul that is connected to the spirit:
Revelation, "Unveiling" 6:9-11 (CLT)...
9 And when It opens the fifth seal, I perceived underneath the altar the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.
10 And they cry with a loud voice, saying, "Till when, O Owner, holy and true, art Thou not judging and avenging our blood on those dwelling on the earth?"
11 And to each of them was given a white robe, and it was declared to them that they should be resting still a little time, till their number should be completed by their fellow slaves also, and their brethren, who are about to be killed even as they were.

If you look up the things said of "spirit" in Scripture, I think you'll agree there's nothing that is not attributed to spirit that pertains to the whole of a man but that which is "carnal."  Consider this statement about not apprehending through a living body, but describing the spirit with soulical attributes:
1 Corinthians 2:9-10 (CLT)...
9 But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend -- whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him.
10 Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God.
11 For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God.

(A very good book, my copy misplaced for the moment, is The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee.  It gives lists of Scripture passages concerning the spirit, soul and body of man, among other things.)

For many people, whatever variety of beliefs make up their personal "Christian" doctrine, the central change needed to believe in the salvation of all is that death does not determine destiny.  God continues to work with people beyond death and on into resurrection, even those of the resurrection at the end, He continues molding and disciplining them to come into His image and likeness.  With jubilation I know, no matter who it is you consider (and I've said it to many people,) "However long it takes, if it takes a million years, God will correct and perfect you in His salvation."

I don't like this controversy very much not only because I'm not absolutely certain, though I am on one side of it, but I don't see it as being so much of some kind of qualification, though I suppose it might be.  At least to me it makes little difference what you believe, though I could be wrong.  I know I respect and love those of another opinion.

I agree with you entirely in your post about this controversy reformer.

I would also add that in the original letter there were no chapters and verses. 1 Peter 4:6 and 1Pet 3:20 are only 8 verses apart and altho it is possible to assert that Peter was talking about two separate groups, I find it doubtful. I believe the statement in the 4th chapter should be read in context with the 3rd, but as you stated.... its open to discussion.

Quote from: reFORMer on September 22, 2009, 08:04:46 AM

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
Humans are never called "spirits."

Humans are either called "humans" or "souls."

Hebrews 12:23 (CLT)...
22 But you have come to mount Zion, and the city of the living God, celestial Jerusalem, and to ten thousand messengers,
23 to a universal convocation, and to the ecclesia of the firstborn, registered in the heavens, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the just perfected,
24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a fresh covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling which is speaking better than Abel.

This phrase speaks of humans from the perspective of their being spirits:  "...to the spirits of the just perfected..."  Young's Literal has:  "...to spirits of righteous men made perfect..."

Tony's reply:
No, it does not say humans are spirits. It speaks of "***spirits OF*** the just."
We all have a spirit, an intangible, invisible power within us.

The spirits of humans were not in a jail since the time of Noah.

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
Christ never preached while He was dead. It is only after He was vivified or made alive that He heralds (not preaches) to the **spirits** (not humans).

Quote
Preaching and heralding are very close.  Look up the occurrences of kerusso, kerux, kerugma.  Consider that the keyword Knoch gave to it was PROCLAIM and that Knoch's definition is:  "Make known publicly with authority beforehand."  Many theologians have compared kerugma and didache as preaching/teaching.  To a certain extent it seems such distinctions approach straining at gnats.

No, they are not even close.
Keruso is not even like euangelizonto. Euangelizonto is "evangelize" and keruso is proclaim.

Here is what Knoch wrote in the Concordant Commentary on this passage:

"18 A grasp of the apostle's argument here will help us through this difficult passage. The subject is suffering for doing good. The Example is Christ and those sufferings which came to Him as they come to His disciples, because of the sin which surrounded Him. The argument is that He, though put to death, has now been exalted, even over the messengers and authorities and powers of the spirit realm (22), therefore those who suffer for doing good will also be exalted in due time.
     With this in mind, it is evident that it is not the evangel which is proclaimed to the spirits in prison, for that would be entirely out of line with
the argument. It would imply that, as a result of their sufferings, their enemies will be evangelized. Such grace is foreign to Peter's epistles. The word here used is not evangelize, but herald or proclaim. It tells us, not that they were blessed, but that He was exalted. And what is more likely than that, after His ascension, He should be proclaimed the universal Suzerain to all creation, obedient or rebellious?

19 Who are these imprisoned spirits ? Are they not the same that Peter mentions in his second epistle (2:4) who were thrust down to the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, and the messengers of Jude's epistle (6) , who kept not their own sovereignty and left their own habitation?
     The fact that they are called spirits, assures us that they are not human. The proclamation was not made to them during our Lord's death, but after He had been made alive. It was a token of His exaltation. In due time all will be subjected to Him, not only Israel on the earth in the kingdom, and all the rest of humanity in the resurrection, but all sovereignty and authority and power in the spirit realm, so that, at the consummation God may become All in all."

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

QuoteI am not convinced.  The whole context is the people that perished in the Great Deluge.  People are spirits in bodies.  The Rephaim that Isaiah (26:14) seems to indicate have no resurrection, are these the spirits to whom you think he was "announcing" as His Father commissions Him?  These were possibly hybrids "of renown" born of "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."  Are these the origin of the "myths" concerning what they considered "the gods" handed down to ancient peoples?  Many people think not.  I think maybe.  Were the sons of God those born of androgynous Adam before separation into male and female? or, were they of another creation, angels?

Tony's reply:
Isa 26:14 The dead shall fail to live, and Rephaim [healers] will fail to rise. Therefore You will call to account, and You shall exterminate them.

The point is that God will not raise healers for the curses of the law that were to come upon those law breakers.
If you are saying the Rephaim will never be resurrected then all the humans who died will fail to ever live again. Therefore God is not the saviour of all mankind if you are correct.

QuoteIf, as you say, "Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people," then, "For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living" (Rm 14:9, CLT) makes Christ to be wasting His death.  As far as "The dead know nothing," (Ec 9) there is no reason to be speaking of anything more than a corpse.  You can even kick one and it wont kick back.  They know nothing.  It is clear that from James (2:26, CLT) "For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead."

Tony's reply: Your quote above that God is not the God of the dead but of the living is Christ's reply to the Sadducees over if there is a resurrection or not.
Mat 22:23 In that day there came to Him Sadducees, who are saying there is no resurrection. And they inquire of Him,
Jesus proves there has to be a resurrection out of the tombs for God to be the God of the living.

Matthew 22:31-32 CLV  Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, did you not read that which is declared to you by God, saying,  (32)  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Thus showing the necessity for resurrection. Also, the only time we meet Christ is when, as a complete group, all the dead in Christ come out of their literal graves and they literally meet all the living believers *at the same time* and then meet the Lord in the air.

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 08:45:08 PM


So what does this mean:

1 Peter 3:18-22 CLV  seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,  (19)  in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,  (20)  He heralds to those [spirits] once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,  (21)  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  (22)  Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him."

1. Notice, it does not say He went to dead humans and preached to them.
2. Notice, it does not say He preached to anyone but "heralds".
3. Notice, the heralding was not to humans but to spirits.
4. Notice, He did not do this WHILE dead but after He was vivified (brought back to life).

What it looks like to me is this:

The same spirit that rose him from the dead is the one by which he had preached to the spirits in prison years before he was lowered into the flesh, who were stubborn in the days of Noah. In other words, it may not be talking about something Jesus did AFTER he was resurrected, but before he was even lowered into the flesh and born of a virgin, being something that occured back in the days of Noah when the ark was being constructed. Those same spirits in jail (being that they were slaves to sin) did not listen so only 8 people were saved which is the symbol of Spiritual baptism (the destroyed people were buried under water being a symbol of the sinful man which is killed by the water of the Spirit thereby creating a new-born man).

In any case, I agree with you Tony. The typical interpretation has Christ being alive (huh?) for three days and preaching to people in hell. However, Christ was dead. And if Christ was alive, preaching to people in the grave that would be useless: the dead know nothing.

Quote from: Tony N on September 22, 2009, 08:24:39 PM

Quote from: reFORMer on September 22, 2009, 08:04:46 AM

Quote from: Tony N on September 21, 2009, 10:13:44 PM
My topic is not about baptism. It is about those spirits that were stubborn WHILE or WHEN God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed.

Christ would have been wasting His breath if He heralded to dead people. He heralded to spirits. Don't make it hard.

QuoteI am not convinced.  The whole context is the people that perished in the Great Deluge.  People are spirits in bodies.  The Rephaim that Isaiah (26:14) seems to indicate have no resurrection, are these the spirits to whom you think he was "announcing" as His Father commissions Him?  These were possibly hybrids "of renown" born of "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."  Are these the origin of the "myths" concerning what they considered "the gods" handed down to ancient peoples?  Many people think not.  I think maybe.  Were the sons of God those born of androgynous Adam before separation into male and female? or, were they of another creation, angels?

Tony's reply:
Isa 26:14 The dead shall fail to live, and Rephaim [healers] will fail to rise. Therefore You will call to account, and You shall exterminate them.

The point is that God will not raise healers for the curses of the law that were to come upon those law breakers.
If you are saying the Rephaim will never be resurrected then all the humans who died will fail to ever live again. Therefore God is not the saviour of all mankind if you are correct.

I only offer speculation:  those who consider Raphaim to be the offspring of two species, only one of which is human, are saying they are a hybrid like the offspring of horses and asses are mules.  Mules are a hybrid and sterile creature to themselves, neither horse or mule.  So would be the offspring of daughters of men and sons of God.

I have so close to no motivation for this entire discussion.  I just feel weary when I confront it.  I know I have seen spirits and things that exist in that realm.  I once before  mentioned here catching up to someone who had one arm of transparent blue light.  When I spoke with him, he said it had just been cut off three days previous.  I've seen spirit things something like 10 foot Daddy-Long-Legs spiders.  They appear similar to what I've seen attached to people, pumping on them at the point of what was cancer.  I have been across the room from my body which was inhabited by the Holy Spirit and praying.  Immediately before that I experienced being drawn out of my body after hearing Cheyne-Stokes respiration from my body.  But, though I think so, I can't say absolutely I was dead.  After all, I'm here now.  I just don't see any reason, Biblical or otherwise to deny spirit apart from embodiment.  In fact, there are myriads of spirits and spirit things surrounding and passing through any human temple.  They are not embodied other than that spirit itself can be referred to as body, probably more in the sense of "substance."

Forgive me if I don't keep the argument going.  I don't have to prove something for the benefit of those of another opinion.  It is my experience they stay of the same opinion.  For this matter I don't care enough to take the time or make the effort.  Maybe I'll be of another mind someday.  Love y'all...

your brother, James

 :cloud9: I've seen spirits of every description too James, including those that have died, and were brought into Christ, which is why "they" without us cannot be made perfect, all things THE Spirit wanted me to perceive and have understanding on, not things I in any way sought out.

Seek Him who IS Spirit and you begin to walk in the Spirit and whatever He elects to do in that regard. One is not exclusive of the other, but rather, inclusive. Blessings.....

Well, I agree that a lengthy discussion about all this is undesirable. Since I believe that experientially death is never experienced and therefore, experientially, resurrection is instantaneous, the conclusions are similar in that respect. However, I strongly believe that it is a Biblical truth that perfection is not achieved in our flesh, and that final perfection is achieved by laying to waste our mortality through literal death and literal resurrection.

Perfection/completion can be achieved while in the flesh in regard to the mind, while still maintaining the likemindedness Paul asked for: we still have hope of attaining the resurrection of the dead, and being made conformable to Christ in ALL ways, not only a changed mind, but through resurrection to immortality.

Until then, the patriarchs are both dead and buried (along with David) and will experience perfection together with us when the resurrection of the dead is attained. That's what I believe and I don't expect everyone to agree.

I believe it is important to know if Christ was really dead while He was really dead or off playing checkers and having a ball, chillin out with disembodied humans (LOL) instead of His death and burial being a real sacrifice.

The truth is: "Christ alone hath immortality."

It is sheer Platonism to believe that humans, when they die, have some immortal soul and get to have another crack at salvation.

This just shows the degree to which the body of believers have been hoodwinked by philosophers, both modern and ancient rather than the Scriptures.

Rephaim the offspring of two species? Since when do spirits have sex organs to procreate? The angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage.

"Another important item furnished by the book of Deuteronomy is the existence of another powerful Nephilim branch—the Rephaim. Reviewing the events that had transpired on the Moabite border, Moses says: "The Emim dwelt therein aforetime, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakim: they (the Emim) are accounted Rephaim, as the Anakim; but the Moabites call them Emim" (Deut.2:10,11). Here we are told that the Rephaim were like the Anakim in two particulars: (1) might, number and stature, and (2) descent. Like the Anakim, they came of the Nephilim. Again, speaking of the land of Ammon, Moses says: "That also is accounted a land of Rephaim: the Rephaim dwelt there aforetime; but the Ammonites call them Zamzummim; a people great, many, and tall, as the Anakim" (Deut.2:20,21). The Rephaim branch of the Nephilim was called by various names by the different nations—Horim, Emim, Zamzummim. "

BTW, the nephilim (actually "distinguished ones" Concordant Version) were sons of Anak (a human). They were not the product of angels and humans.

Getting back to the spirits in prison, these are the same spirits held in the caverns of Tartarus.
The Bible says that when all people die their spirit returns to God who gave it. God is not in prison or caverns of Tartarus.

So do you want to hold on to your paganism or believe the Scriptures?

Quote from: Tony N on September 22, 2009, 11:58:26 PM
It is sheer Platonism to believe that humans, when they die, have some immortal soul and get to have another crack at salvation.

Hi Tony.  I see a lot of what you're saying. 

Given the above quote, what do you believe happens, what do you see as the process of every knee bowing and God becoming all in all? 

Thanks, James.

Tony I fully agree. Jesus was dead for three days and was resurrected FROM the dead on the third day.

Quote from: jabcat on September 23, 2009, 12:57:31 AM

Quote from: Tony N on September 22, 2009, 11:58:26 PM
It is sheer Platonism to believe that humans, when they die, have some immortal soul and get to have another crack at salvation.

Hi Tony.  I see a lot of what you're saying. 

Given the above quote, what do you believe happens, what do you see as the process of every knee bowing and God becoming all in all? 

Thanks, James.

The process whereby all mankind will have God All in them is the process of vivification . . . being given immortality and putting on incorruption (1 Cor.15:22-28 etc.).

The process begins with Christ obediently going to the cross for all mankind and putting all mankind to death in the death of Christ. Then all mankind will be vivified (given life beyond the reach of death). "Yet each in his own order: The firstfruit (order) Christ then those who are Christ's (order) thereafter the consummation (order). The last order (the consummation order) will be vivified after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignties, authorities and powers annulled and death abolished.

Quote from: Tony N on September 22, 2009, 11:58:26 PMRephaim the offspring of two species? Since when do spirits have sex organs to procreate? The angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage.

In the resurrection the angels are neither marrying nor given in marriage. The resurrection is one brief, not even to be compared to an age or time, just a little sliver of time. They were asking Him about "in the resurrection," not about the all in all world, since the increase of His Kingdom shall know no end. And the question didn't even cover the duration of the reign of Christ after the resurrection. It's a presupposition with regards to flesh and blood, a tiny bit of a misreading of 1Corinthians 15, and viewing things in that limited context and from the standpoint that during the resurrection, ain't nobody getting their jollies! And as far as spirits having sex organs, well, actually...never mind...I won't go there...other than to say...are you kidding me? The spirit world created everything kinky you've ever heard of!

Luk 23:42-43  and he said to Jesus, `Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;'  (43)  and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

The idea of Jesus playing poker with the dead sounds like a sitcom to me...."Pair A DICE?" :msealed:

  It is easy to make confident assertions and ridicule other positions, I prefer a slightly more civil approach. I am not asserting that my view is absolutely correct. I am saying there are other scriptures that need to be considered in evidence, because man's logic is fallible.

1Sa 28:14-19  And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.  (15)  And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.  (16)  Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?  (17)  And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:  (18)  Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.  (19)  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

The dissolution of the soul at death may not such an obvious established fact. Unless Jesus was euphemizing to the thief on the cross and in this portion in Samuel, Samuel was a demon, which I have heard some say( but the verses do not support without wresting them) there are other evidences to consider. I would never get into a hostile debate about this issue, but I find it an interesting discussion.

If we want to assert positively that all the uses of rapha refer to rephaim rather than "the dead" there is also a lot of scholarly disagreement about that. The word is used in many places besides Isaiah 14 and the context doesn t support using rapha always as Rephaim.  It appears to be a common word in Hebrew for ghosts. Also regardless of the usage of rapha, in many places scripture in context may agree that the dead will wake and wait sleeping in Sheol, which is "under the earth".(Is 26:19; Psalm 88:10)

   We can make too much of the word "death". Adam "died" but he walked around for nearly a 1000 years after he "died" because death is a state of being separated from God. "He that believes in me has passed from death into life."
David "fell on sleep" and saw corruption, Christ saw no corruption because death could not hold Him. He tasted death -the pain of bodily dying and separation from God- for everyman. His faith triumphed during that separation.

Also "Sleeping" and "waking" are terms routinely used for death in the OT and NT. Sleep is a state of being, not the absence of it, and it appears Samuel was wakened from it.

If the soul is dissolved upon death, how was the thief to accompany Jesus in "paradise".

Also, the word "diokaiov" transliterated "dikaios" from Hebrews 12, the spirits of "the righteous" made perfect is used throughout scripture to refer to men(29 out of 32 times in the gospels, the other three to the Just One, Christ). It appears to me from studying the use of the word in the rest of scripture, "the righteous" refers to men.

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: Blessings....

4And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

-------

If Saul was brought up, where was he ascend from? Where does it say in here that Saul was a soul without a body? This story reminds me of Lazarus.

 :cloud9: Why is it, that it was assumed among the churches that the soul and the spirit of man are the same? It has to be they assumed this, else why would they only see that the spirit ascends back to the One that sent it, but the soul.......? Does what? What is death as it relates to the soul, not just the spirit?

Death has implications for not just the corporeal body. These are things that need to be thought out and taken to the Lord with for clarification, just as UR was hidden by the mainstream churches. We came out of Babylon, but all Babylon did not come out of us, in an instant. Blessings...

The soul yearns for its lover!

 :cloud9: Amen, it does, and love is stronger than death. Blessings......

Quote from: Cardinal on September 23, 2009, 06:17:23 AM
:cloud9: Why is it, that it was assumed among the churches that the soul and the spirit of man are the same? It has to be they assumed this, else why would they only see that the spirit ascends back to the One that sent it, but the soul.......? Does what? What is death as it relates to the soul, not just the spirit?

Death has implications for not just the corporeal body. These are things that need to be thought out and taken to the Lord with for clarification, just as UR was hidden by the mainstream churches. We came out of Babylon, but all Babylon did not come out of us, in an instant. Blessings...

I agree, these are things that need to be thought out and taken to the Lord. Amen to that.  :thumbsup:

It's worth noting from my own perspective though that Babylon taught me that nobody ever really dies, especially not the One who sacrificed his very own life for me.

Dear eaglesway, that was not really Samuel but a familiar spirit. Saul never saw Samuel but the witch of Endor did (in her own mind). This is why God is against going to these kinds of people is because they don't really raise the dead but it is all about evil spirits.

Likewise, when the three disciples saw Christ and Moses and Elijah on the mount. They did not really see Moses and Elijah as to their flesh but it was just a vision. Jesus told them to tell no one of the vision. When Peter saw all the unclean animals coming out of the sky in Acts, they were not really there in the flesh but it was a vision.

The thief on the cross did not go to Paradise THAT day Christ and he died. Jesus said: I say to you today, with me you will be in the Paradise.
No, friend, Jesus and the thief were not playing hide-and-seek in Paradise the day they died or checkers. It was a real death, a real sacrifice. Jesus was dead . . . dead . . . dead for three days. The thief is still dead. The Paradise will come when Jesus sets up His kingdom.

As to Rapha being ghosts? I did a study just now on Strongs # 7496 and not one place can I find it used of ghosts. It is always used of the dead in the Authorised Version.

Dear eaglesway, you also state that "Adam died yet he still walked around." But the Hebrew says: "to die shall you be dying." It is the process of dying. And God explained what that meant by saying this: Gen 3:19 "In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till your return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." The dying was and is a process. The King James says "even as in Adam all died" but "died" is not in the complete form. It should be "even as in Adam all are dying." It is a process which continues till it eventuates in total death.

Tony

Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2009, 04:58:43 AM

Luk 23:42-43  and he said to Jesus, `Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;'  (43)  and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

The idea of Jesus playing poker with the dead sounds like a sitcom to me...."Pair A DICE?" :msealed:

  It is easy to make confident assertions and ridicule other positions, I prefer a slightly more civil approach. I am not asserting that my view is absolutely correct. I am saying there are other scriptures that need to be considered in evidence, because man's logic is fallible.

1Sa 28:14-19  And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.  (15)  And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.  (16)  Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?  (17)  And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:  (18)  Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.  (19)  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

The dissolution of the soul at death may not such an obvious established fact. Unless Jesus was euphemizing to the thief on the cross and in this portion in Samuel, Samuel was a demon, which I have heard some say( but the verses do not support without wresting them) there are other evidences to consider. I would never get into a hostile debate about this issue, but I find it an interesting discussion.

If we want to assert positively that all the uses of rapha refer to rephaim rather than "the dead" there is also a lot of scholarly disagreement about that. The word is used in many places besides Isaiah 14 and the context doesn t support using rapha always as Rephaim.  It appears to be a common word in Hebrew for ghosts. Also regardless of the usage of rapha, in many places scripture in context may agree that the dead will wake and wait sleeping in Sheol, which is "under the earth".(Is 26:19; Psalm 88:10)

   We can make too much of the word "death". Adam "died" but he walked around for nearly a 1000 years after he "died" because death is a state of being separated from God. "He that believes in me has passed from death into life."
David "fell on sleep" and saw corruption, Christ saw no corruption because death could not hold Him. He tasted death -the pain of bodily dying and separation from God- for everyman. His faith triumphed during that separation.

Also "Sleeping" and "waking" are terms routinely used for death in the OT and NT. Sleep is a state of being, not the absence of it, and it appears Samuel was wakened from it.

If the soul is dissolved upon death, how was the thief to accompany Jesus in "paradise".

Also, the word "diokaiov" transliterated "dikaios" from Hebrews 12, the spirits of "the righteous" made perfect is used throughout scripture to refer to men(29 out of 32 times in the gospels, the other three to the Just One, Christ). It appears to me from studying the use of the word in the rest of scripture, "the righteous" refers to men.

QuoteIf the soul is dissolved upon death, how was the thief to accompany Jesus in "paradise".

To day i tell you in paradise with me you will be....

NO TIME FRAME!!

we know 100%  the soul of jesus was in sheol not paradise, paradise is the third heaven!


chuckt

Chuckt: here's proof of what you say.

Mark 10:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life (psuche - SOUL) a ransom for many.

I want to reiterate, I find this an interesting discussion, I am not trying to set doctrine for anyone, but I am being forthright with what I see.


The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

Eph 4:8-10  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  (9)  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--

"The lower parts of the earth" is very similar to passages describing Sheoul in the OT

Psa 63:9  But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Also similar to "under the earth" from Phillipians 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Why the distinction "under the earth"

The idea that Samuel was a familiar spirit, which I alluded to in my post(does any body read before they respond?)
is a possibility, but I believe the narrator would have indicated this.

I think it is more likely the narrator knew exactly what was happening and told it as it happened. The narrator says "Samuel said, Why have you disturbed me", which lends some weight to the soul sleeping under the earth awaiting resurrection. The narrator says the witch was shocked to see Samuel. The word of prophecy that Samuel delivered was specific and fulfilled. Now maybe God announces His plans to familiar spirits, maybe not.

Jon 2:2-9  And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.  (3)  For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.  (4)  Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.  (5)  The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.  (6)  I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.  (7)  When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.  (8)  They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.  (9)  But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

The verses in Jonah is not by any means empirical evidence, but I see it as an accurate prophetic picture of the trial of Christ, three days and nights in the "belly of the whale"- the sign of Jonah.

Psa 22:12-24  Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.  (13)  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.  (14)  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.  (15)  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.  (16)  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.  (17)  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.  (18)  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.  (19)  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.  (20)  Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.  (21)  Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.  (22)  I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.  (23)  Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.  (24)  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

I believe death tried to hold Jesus, even as Satan strove with Michael over the body of Moses, but Jesus, separated from God, nevertheless trusted God and His faith, not being stained by sin, left no grasp for the enemy,(the prince of this world comes but has nothing in me) who formerly held the keys to death and the grave. I believe He endured a struggle in the lower parts of the earth that involved breaking into the strong man's house and plundering it, the gates of Sheoul could not prevail against Him.

1Co 2:6-8  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:  (7)  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:  (8)  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If the strong bulls of Bashan had known, as they gaped upon Him with their mouths, what he was going to do, they would not have crucified Him.

Presented as Evidence in the Balance, John

QuoteThe fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

you must read it in the greek!

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk23.pdf

it literally says:

"" i am saying today in paradise you will be with me"""


NO TIME LINE, and scripture MUST interprete scripture:

The Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are synonymous in meaning.

And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades are identical in meaning:

Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:

Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption."

And so the inspiration of the Spirit of God proves that the Greek word hades is the right and proper translation of the Hebrew word sheol.


His soul went to the UNSEEN.  i have NO idea what this means ""'soul dissolution""

peace
chuckt

Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2009, 07:57:56 PM
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

Jesus' statement can be understood several ways. The way which corroborates scripture is probably the better one. I don't believe that the interpretation that places the thief in paradise with Jesus on that very day, before Christ was resurrected and ascended does that very well at all.

QuoteEph 4:8-10  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  (9)  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--

"The lower parts of the earth" is very similar to passages describing Sheoul in the OT

See, if you look at the entire context of Ephesians 4, it is talking about the creation and formation of the church as a manifestation of the working of the Spirit. So the question is when did Jesus lead captivity captive and give gifts to men, while he was dead? I don't beleive so.

He ascended. What does it mean that he ascended, but that he was once below? So ascension happens UPON HAVING already descended. That's the point. Christ was raised after he was lowered. He died and was resurrected. After being resurrected he ascended.

HOW does Jesus lead captivity into captivity? Romans 6 explains that very well: by Spiritual baptism. Christ said that he would said a comforter, but that he must first ascend to be with his Father, then he would send the comforter, which turned out to be himself. That is what it means that he "gave gifts to men."

willieH: Hi brother Seth! :hithere:

And you too brother Tony! :hithere:

Quote from: Seth on September 23, 2009, 01:00:55 AM
Tony I fully agree. Jesus was dead for three days and was resurrected FROM the dead on the third day.

As do I!  :thumbsup:  ---> :2thumbs:

AMEN!  CHRIST ...died... and was placed in a tomb, in which His inactive, and LIFE-LESS body lie for 3 days and 3 nights...

Preaching to DEAD people, is not DEATH... Preaching is a LIVING activity, and even then... Preaching the GOSPEL is conveying WORDS of LIFE... DEATH is not involved with the preaching of the LIVING WORD of GOD...

DEATH is LIFE-LESS-NESS... for whoever is within its parameters including God's only begotten Son, ...JESUS...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2009, 07:57:56 PM
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

Eph 4:8-10  wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --  (9)  and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things--

Dear eaglesway, grace and peace to you bro.
If Christ and the thief went to paradise when they died then you would have to contradict too many scriptures concerning death and the state of the dead. The placing of periods and commas by the translator must be done to accord with the rest of Scripture. It is either "I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise" or "I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise." I believe the latter is in harmony with the rest of Scripture. "The dead know nothing."

The phrase: "Having gone up on high he led captive captivity," does not mean Christ took the dead saints with Him to heaven. After Christ ascended into heaven Peter told the Israelites: Act 2:29 "Men! Brethren! Allow me to say to you with boldness concerning the patriarch David, that he deceases also and was entombed, and his tomb is among us until this day." So why didn't Christ take David and all the other saints? They are still awaiting the resurrection.

If others ascended with Christ then why did John years later say: "And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven" (Joh 3:13)?

Quote"The lower parts of the earth" is very similar to passages describing Sheoul in the OT

Psa 63:9  But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

Also similar to "under the earth" from Phillipians 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Why the distinction "under the earth"

It could be in Phillippians 2:10 that those under the earth are living in subterrannean cities or caves such as those in Heb.11:38 who hid in caves and holes in the earth. Even today there are vast underground cities built to house officials and senators of the U.S.A. in case of nuclear attack.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the magnates, and the captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every slave and freeman, hide themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains."

The above ones are under the earth and will one day praise the Lord.

Quote
The idea that Samuel was a familiar spirit, which I alluded to in my post(does any body read before they respond?)
is a possibility, but I believe the narrator would have indicated this.

I think it is more likely the narrator knew exactly what was happening and told it as it happened. The narrator says "Samuel said, Why have you disturbed me", which lends some weight to the soul sleeping under the earth awaiting resurrection. The narrator says the witch was shocked to see Samuel. The word of prophecy that Samuel delivered was specific and fulfilled. Now maybe God announces His plans to familiar spirits, maybe not.

QuoteJon 2:2-9  And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.  (3)  For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.  (4)  Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.  (5)  The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.  (6)  I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.  (7)  When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.  (8)  They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.  (9)  But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

The verses in Jonah is not by any means empirical evidence, but I see it as an accurate prophetic picture of the trial of Christ, three days and nights in the "belly of the whale"- the sign of Jonah.

It is "For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Mat 12:40).
Jesus was not saying that just as Jonah was in a belly of a fish all wet with saliva so the Son would be in the tomb all wet with saliva. Neither was Jesus saying that just as Noah was alive in the fish for three days so Jesus would be alive for three days in a tomb.

QuotePsa 22:12-24  Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.  (13)  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.  (14)  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.  (15)  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.  (16)  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.  (17)  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.  (18)  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.  (19)  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.  (20)  Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.  (21)  Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.  (22)  I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.  (23)  Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.  (24)  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

I believe death tried to hold Jesus, even as Satan strove with Michael over the body of Moses, but Jesus, separated from God, nevertheless trusted God and His faith, not being stained by sin, left no grasp for the enemy,(the prince of this world comes but has nothing in me) who formerly held the keys to death and the grave. I believe He endured a struggle in the lower parts of the earth that involved breaking into the strong man's house and plundering it, the gates of Sheoul could not prevail against Him.

The depths of the earth just mean the tomb or grave. It does not mean Jesus went into the very center of the earth.

Quote1Co 2:6-8  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:  (7)  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:  (8)  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If the strong bulls of Bashan had known, as they gaped upon Him with their mouths, what he was going to do, they would not have crucified Him.

Presented as Evidence in the Balance, John

True, but this does not prove Christ went to dead people while He was dead and preached to them. That would be like preaching to a rock. "The dead know nothing."

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom In the unseen (or Hades) where you are going."

Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2009, 07:57:56 PM
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

"SOUL DISSOLUTION"? -- Whaaaaaaaaaaaatizdiz? :omg:

Please refer us to the Scripture which founds your proposal of -- "SOUL DISSOLUTION"...  :dontknow:

Phillipians 2:10

Those "under the earth" WILL bow. Everyone who was dead will be vivified. What do you think they will do after vivification? Bow and confess? I think so.

Willie.....read the post, I was not proposing the dissolution of the soul, I was refuting it.

I think what people mean by the dissolution of the soul is this:

When we die, "the spirit returns to God Who gave it."

The body returns to the soil, "for soil you are and to soil shall you return."

The soul, being the **result** of spirit and flesh coming together to create sensations, ceases to exist once the spirit departs the body.

• God formed Adam from the soil.
• God breathed into Adam the spirit or breath of life
• Adam **became** a living soul.

Tony

Isaiah wrote: "The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined." [Isaiah 9:2]

Matthew quoted from this prophecy in Matthew 4:12-17. Who does not have to face death? All dwell in the "shadow of death" because we are mortal. This "great light" will shine upon every person!

Matthew showed that the gospel is a light for mankind on the subject of death. From the death and resurrection of Jesus, and his statements about death we can understand a great deal. Jesus said as Jonah was in the belly of the fish, he would remain in the grave for 3 days. Jonah referred to being in the fish as "sheol."

Jonah 2:2
Out of the belly of hell [sheol] cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Sheol has very much the same meaning as the Greek word Hades, that is the unseen, or the grave, but Hades was also the name of a Greek deity, and has mythological associations. Jonah was in "sheol" while in the belly of the fish, and he prayed to God, and God saved him. He was a type of all those who end up in sheol, because he was saved out of it.
   
When Jesus was in the grave, he was in sheol. Jonah could not go anywhere else, while he was in the fish. He went where the fish went. And Jesus, in the grave, could not go anywhere else either.
   
Jesus was restored to life by a resurrection. It is the same for everyone; when we die, we need to be raised up from the grave.

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation [or judgment].

The idea of immortality of the soul was a doctrine of Plato. In the early Christian era, it was merged with the teachings of the apostles by church fathers, who admired Plato. They are among the false teachers foretold by the apostle Peter, in 2 Pet. 2. Because of their doctrines, the great light of the gospel of Christ was obscured.

IMO, Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is one of the "tares" sown by the enemy in the parable of the tares in Mat. 13.

For those interested, there is a more detailed discussion in 4 chapters from E. White's Life in Christ. 

Life in Christ
by Edward White
Elliot Stock, 62 Paternoster Row, London
1875

CHAPTER VI.
On the Orthodox Doctrine on the Nature and Destiny of Mankind

CHAPTER VII.
On the Possibility that Christendom has Erred on the Doctrine of Human Destiny

CHAPTER VIII.
On the Immortality of the Soul

CHAPTER IX.
On the Original Constitution of Man

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/white.html (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/white.html)

Incidentally, Winchester's Dialogues are available here: 

http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/winchester.html (http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/winchester.html)

There is a very famous prophecy, which foretold the corruption of the gospel message, that occurred early in the history of the church. The gospel Jesus taught is called a great light, and in Genesis 1, the sun is also identified as a great light; the sun represents the gospel. It clothes the woman in Rev. 12:1. Peter quoted the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2, when the disciples received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:20-21
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul turned the sun to darkness, as it makes a resurrection seem quite unnecessary. Why would anyone need to be raised from the dead, if his soul remained conscious after death?

Jesus spoke of death as sleep, because the resurrection is like awaking from sleep. The gospel teaches our need for a resurrection. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" [John 11:24-26].
   
When we believe the gospel we can be assured of awaking from death, as if from sleep. Most who believe in the immortality of the soul wonder why a resurrection is even needed. They are confused, and in darkness.

John identified Jesus as the true light, which enlightens every man. "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9]

Doug

QuoteSheol has very much the same meaning as the Greek word Hades

good post doug.

HADES IS THE PROPER..definition of hebrew sheol. albeit, it already had meaning behind it not biblical but steming from mythology.

i like this:



HADES

NEXT to the Old Testament Hebrew word SHEOL, this New Testament Greek word,

HADES, is one of the most important.

    Our present object and desire is to discover the way in which the Holy Spirit uses it;

and to find out the sense in which He intends us to understand it. Apart from this, all

our study of the word is useless.

   It matters not what men may say, whether Pagan or Christian. Heathen Mythology,

Human Tradition, and Christian Theology have no place in this study. They will lead

us astray instead of guiding us : they will hinder us rather than help us.

   The Old Testament has one advantage over the New. Its Hebrew words are the words

of the Holy Spirit  and all knowledge of Hebrew starts with the Hebrew Bible. It is the

fountain head of that language; and  there is no previous Hebrew literature behind it.

   But when we come to the New Testament, the case is entirely different. Here, the

Holy Spirit takes up human words which had been used among the Greeks for centuries,

and had already acquired senses, and meanings, and usages; human in their development

as they were human in their origin. [MORE]


http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_death_soul_hell_menu.htm


and from ray smith:


And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades are identical in meaning:

Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:

Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption."

And so the inspiration of the Spirit of God proves that the Greek word hades is the right and proper translation of the Hebrew word sheol.


God bless
chuckt

Quote from: eaglesway on September 24, 2009, 01:46:37 AM
Willie.....read the post, I was not proposing the dissolution of the soul, I was refuting it.

As far as I can see, ..."Soul dissolution" is YOUR terminology...  :dontknow:

Used by you HERE:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2009, 04:58:43 AM
The dissolution of the soul at death may not such an obvious established fact.

and HERE:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2009, 07:57:56 PM
The fact of where paradise is or isn't is beside the point of Jesus' statement to the thief on the cross, which runs contrary to soul dissolution upon physical death. The following scripture seems to corroborate this.

There is no such thing as "soul dissolution" and no one else has mentioned it but YOU, so what is there to "refute"?

Are you refuting yourself and your own terminology? ("soul dissolution")

There is more to say about your viewpoint, and I will try to get to it later, although Seth, TonyN, ChuckT and others have firmly outlined the truth in this matter.

JESUS did NOT go to "paradise" at DEATH, He went to a Grave in which He spend 3 days and 3 nights... DEAD...

As Seth noted, the "THIEF" is STILL, ...DEAD! :nod:

I notice willieH knows right where that bone was buried again!

It's so good to read what you all post, how able you are to discuss the Word of God.  It's not boring like those topics the "Christian Media" operators shape to please the largest donor base.  Often I find there's instruction here, even for those who seem to have gone over what has been revealed about a matter.

Thank you all for being who you are, that special perspective of God comming into revelation.

Small interruption....
Is it possible that after the death of Jesus things changed regarding to soulsleep, death or what name you want to give it.
For me personally there is quite a lot of evidence in the OT about soulsleep.
But not so in the NT. Plus Jesus came with a very special task. So possible changes???

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:37:57 AM
Small interruption....
Is it possible that after the death of Jesus things changed regarding to soulsleep, death or what name you want to give it.
For me personally there is quite a lot of evidence in the OT about soulsleep.
But not so in the NT. Plus Jesus came with a very special task. So possible changes???

That's what I think.

We are already translated from death to life.  Or how else can you interpret...shall never die.

Just a thought without much/any scriptual proof.
Jesus was a FirstFruit.
A harvest needs to be planted. -> Seeds -> OT dead people
According to (older) secular dictionaries vivify/quicken also has relation to plants starting to grow in the spring.
So I can see some parallels with plants and dead OT people.
:2c:

 :cloud9: Yeah, it changed. Someone appeared with the keys to release them from it. And He has appeared, He is appearing, and He will appear. Blessings...

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 11:47:59 AM
Just a thought without much/any scriptual proof.
Jesus was a FirstFruit.
A harvest needs to be planted. -> Seeds -> OT dead people
According to (older) secular dictionaries vivify/quicken also has relation to plants starting to grow in the spring.
So I can see some parallels with plants and dead OT people.
:2c:

I think you could say that.  Except we are the barley harvest-the first harvest in the spring--and my impression from Hebrews is that they have to wait until the barley harvest is complete until they are brought in at the end of the age.  In other words, they are a different harvest.

Heb 11:40  God2316 having provided4265 some5100 better thing2909 for4012 us,2257 that2443 they without5565 us2257 should not3361 be made perfect.5048

Quote from: Molly on Today at 03:57:48 AM

We are already translated from death to life.  Or how else can you interpret...shall never die.

Abraham died. But Jesus said to the Jews,

Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Evidently, while he awaits the resurrection, Abraham lives to God. It is as if he is asleep. And it is the same with David, Moses, and Elijah, Daniel, and all the prophets. They are the foundation of the church, along with the apostles, Eph. 2:20.

Doug

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:37:57 AM
Small interruption....
Is it possible that after the death of Jesus things changed regarding to soulsleep, death or what name you want to give it.
For me personally there is quite a lot of evidence in the OT about soulsleep.
But not so in the NT. Plus Jesus came with a very special task. So possible changes???

The only thing that has changed so far is that Jesus alone has immortality (1 Tim.6:16).
It is only when Christ comes back that "those who are Christ's" shall be vivified (1 Cor.15:23), then, after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignties, authorities and powers nullified and death abolished, the consummation order is vivified.

The term "soulsleep" is unscriptural and should not be part of our vocabulary.

Since the truth is, when a man dies, his spirit returns to God Who gave it, Christ could not possibly have preached to spirits of humans while He was dead or after He was vivified.

Quote from: Cardinal on September 25, 2009, 12:05:51 PM
:cloud9: Yeah, it changed. Someone appeared with the keys to release them from it. And He has appeared, He is appearing, and He will appear. Blessings...

Exactly! And the key I believe is vivification, immortality, incorruption. Christ alone has these now. In the future, we will put on immortality and incorruption

1Co 15:54 Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory."

This is all future.

Quote from Molly:"We are already translated from death to life.  Or how else can you interpret...shall never die."

It never made sense to me either until i learned the truth about bad translations



            It comes back around to proper translation of the Scriptures. The following is an excerpt from an article from bibletruths.com:


"They have in fact, translated some Scriptures to say the diametric opposite of what God has told us. Notice how the King James and many modern Bibles translate the following verse:
"And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall NEVER DIE. Believe you this?" (John 11:26).
Wait a minute; wait a minute; wait a minute! What, pray tell, is going on here?
God told Adam that if he sinned then he would be dying until he ultimately died. And we have Scripture on that. Paul informs us that all mankind has sinned, and that the wages of sin is death. Furthermore we are told by inspiration of God's Holy Spirit that ALL in Adam will die. Then we read a verse in the King James Bible which boldly states that those who believe in Christ (even though they too have sinned), "...will NEVER DIE."
God told Adam, "you shall SURELY DIE." The Serpent then said to Eve, "you shall NOT SURELY DIE." Does everyone agree that the serpent contradicted God? Does the serpent's statement agree or disagree with the statement of God? The serpent contradicts God, doesn't he? Yes, of course he does. This is extremely elementary. But... BUT, John 11:26 states in the King James, that whosoever believes in Jesus, "shall NEVER DIE." Now then, to whose statement does "shall NEVER DIE agree? Does it agree with God's statement "shall SURELY DIE," or with the serpent's statement, "shall NOT SURELY DIE?" Houston, we have a problem.
Did Jesus say one thing to Adam back in the Garden and then contradict Himself in His teaching of John 11:26? Does Jesus "change?" No. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8). Not only does the serpent's statement contradict God's statement, but according to the King James, even Jesus Christ contradicts God's statement. Surely this cannot be. Remember all those statements of God regarding "adding to or taking from" the words of God? Well, I'm afraid the King James has done it again. Let's take a look at this phrase "shall never die" from John 11:26 in a Greek Interlinear:
If you have e-Sword, you can see that the word translated "never" is the translation of three Greek words, not just one. Does it really take three Greek words to represent our English word "never?" No it doesn't.
The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33). This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."
So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that's what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God's statement back in the Garden, that's why.
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)
And that:
"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).
Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).
And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.
And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn't even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God's own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."


I had never personaly realized the contradition of "never die" and what the Word tells us in Genesis until this was pointed out in this article

Gods' Love and peace
:happygrin:

Quote from: Molly on Today at 05:12:57 AM

I think you could say that.  Except we are the barley harvest-the first harvest in the spring--and my impression from Hebrews is that they have to wait until the barley harvest is complete until they are brought in at the end of the age.  In other words, they are a different harvest.

Jesus referred to the "harvest" in at least two different ways. In one case, he applies it to people believing the gospel.

Matthew 9:36-38
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

In another case, in the parable of the tares, he refers to the harvest at the end of the world.

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The scripture you quoted, Heb 11:40, seems to say the saints of the OT are to be together with us in the resurrection, not in a different one. IMO.

Doug

"The spirits here spoken of are not the spirits of dead
men, but they are messengers, spirit beings, commonly
regarded as angelic. These are said to have been "stubborn"
in the days of Noah. That was a time when the patience of
God waited, for the irreverence of the ancient world had
risen to heights where it was defiant to God, and really
called for the deluge to end their insubjection to Him.
Noah became a herald of righteousness in the earth, her-
alding a judging by his building of the ark. Yet outside the
earth, there were beings charged with controls, of whom
we get brief glimpses in the Scriptures, yet who failed in
their service. By means of messengers, God carries out
His many beneficial activities in the heavens and earth.
Israel was inducted to the law on Sinai through messen-
gers (Heb.2:2; Acts 7:53). Messengers or spirits (some-
times referred to as saints; compare Deut.33:2 AV, "holy
ones" CV) also execute judging (Jude 15) and other duties.
In the period while Noah was constructing the ark, cer-
tain spirits, evidently charged with this judging, became
stubborn, resisting the execution of God's righteous judg-
ing of the earth; and instead they seem to have calumni-
ated higher authorities, These "sinning messengers" were
thrust into gloomy caverns and kept for chastening judging
(2 Pet.2:4,5). Due to their stubbornness, it was necessary
to guard Noah, for his salvation was involved because of
the activity of the stubborn messengers. To these "spirits
in jail," Christ heralds the triumph of His obedience; this
is said of Christ with reference to His resurrection, in the
words "being gone to the spirits in jail." Thus these spirits
become aware of Him, and that messengers and author-
ities and powers are subjected to Him." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.55)

1 Peter 3:18-22 NIV
[18] For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, [19] through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison [20] who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [21] and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [22] who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

By building the ark, Noah witnessed to the world that a great flood was to occur, or judgment. Peter said it was by the Spirit that Christ preached to "the spirits in prison." This shows there is a spiritual meaning to the building of the ark, and the flood.

According to Genesis, eight persons, together with the clean and unclean beasts, and birds, and creeping things, went into the ark, and after that, the flood came and destroyed the world.

Peter says baptism is a figure like the flood. The building of the ark pictures our salvation through Christ. Baptism pictures our death in Christ, and burial, and resurrection to a new life. Those who went onto the ark with Noah and his family represent the church today. These included both clean and unclean animals and birds; evidently the unclean creatures represent the Gentiles, as in Peter's vision of a vessel coming down from heaven, like a great sheet, with all sorts of creatures in it, in Acts 10.

Like the building of the ark, the building of the church witnesses to the world. Just as whatever was not on board the ark died, according to the gospel, whatever does not bring forth good fruit, and the works that are not of God, will perish in the judgment.

Matthew 15:13
But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Luke 3:9
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

In my view, the heavens passing away with great noise has already happened, in the scientific revolution; the old cosmology of Peter's day has passed away.

Doug

Quote from: legomanThe word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)
And that:
"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

"not ever shall die to the age"--Does that make sense in English? 

Or this?--"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding."


"shall never" [die]

G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.


G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literallyor figuratively.


G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


To me, that's saying, [you] shall never [unto eternity] [die.]

Why would I compare that to the serpent in the garden?  Jesus is doing a new thing.

I would rather compare it to other things that Jesus said.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[but] "is passed" [from death unto life]

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.



24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

--John 5

Molly, they all died who believe Christ back then.

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

The resurrection from the dead was the beginning of the never die state.

Quote"not ever shall die to the age"--Does that make sense in English?  

Absolutely. Shall not ever be dying into the age. What age?

Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios life.

Since the Bible proves that aionios life is knowledge of God, which is internal and that Christ is our life, saying that those who believe will not be dying in the "coming aion" makes perfect sense.

Quote from: Tony N on September 25, 2009, 07:11:39 PM
Molly, they all died who believe Christ back then.

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

The resurrection from the dead was the beginning of the never die state.

If I've already crossed over from death to life, why would I die again?

death to life to death to life?  What a rollercoaster.

My body might die and await the resurrection, but I won't.

My God is the God of the living.

That's what I believe. 

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 07:12:54 PM
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios  life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess :laughing7:
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2009, 07:25:42 PM

Quote from: Tony N on September 25, 2009, 07:11:39 PM
Molly, they all died who believe Christ back then.

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

The resurrection from the dead was the beginning of the never die state.

If I've already crossed over from death to life, why would I die again?

death to life to death to life?  What a rollercoaster.

My body might die and await the resurrection, but I won't.

That's what I believe. 

You have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 07:26:52 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 07:12:54 PM
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios  life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess :laughing7:
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

That's the rest of the dead.

Not me. :Sparkletooth:

Yes, it's now.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 07:26:52 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 07:12:54 PM
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios  life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess :laughing7:
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

It is, was, and will be. But use of Revelation as plain teaching is dubious. 

Quote from: SethYou have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

You're parsing words now, like a lawyer.  But my lawyer is the Judge.  Yes, I am immortal, right now.  And, he will never leave or forsake me.

If I've died and resurrected with him, what more is there to say?

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 07:33:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 07:26:52 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 07:12:54 PM
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come aionios  life.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Just a guess :laughing7:
The question is this: revelation is now or in the future?

It is

So basicly any believer that dies can be instantly resurrected.

Quote, was, and will be. But use of Revelation as plain teaching is dubious. 

Or not....  :winkgrin:

I've seen this topic coming by before. No answers and no agreement... Oh well does it really matter?

Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2009, 07:37:18 PM

Quote from: SethYou have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

You're parsing words now, like a lawyer.  But my lawyer is the Judge.  Yes, I am immortal, right now.  And, he will never leave or forsake me.

If I've died and resurrected with him, what more is there to say?

Because your quotation of passing from death to life, contextually is related to the planting together in LIKENESS of Christ's death and resurrection, not in the literal.

Therefore, when it is talking about the likeness of Christ's death, it isn't talking about the literal. That is how mortals can be delivered from sin, and still be mortal.

Also, can you refrain from personal insults? Thanks.

Quote from: Seth on September 25, 2009, 07:40:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2009, 07:37:18 PM

Quote from: SethYou have passed from death to life regarding planting together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection: deliverance from sin. But you are still mortal.

You're parsing words now, like a lawyer.  But my lawyer is the Judge.  Yes, I am immortal, right now.  And, he will never leave or forsake me.

If I've died and resurrected with him, what more is there to say?

Because your quotation of passing from death to life, contextually is related to the planting together in LIKENESS of Christ's death and resurrection, not in the literal.

Therefore, when it is talking about the likeness of Christ's death, it isn't talking about the literal. That is how mortals can be delivered from sin, and still be mortal.

Also, can you refrain from personal insults? Thanks.

Saying you are like a lawyer is an insult?  I guess maybe it is, sorry.

We just disagree, that's all.  Plus, I have no idea what you are saying.  It makes no sense. [hence the reference to legalese].

If I have died and resurrected with Christ, that's it.  It's finished.  I already know that I have consciousness outside of this body.

Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2009, 07:44:17 PM
Saying you are like a lawyer is an insult?  I guess maybe it is, sorry.

It seemed so. It just seemed negative, like I look at things lawerlike, which suggests that I'm soulless. If you didn't mean it negatively, it's all good. It's all good anyway, I just like having conversations where it doesn't go there.  :HeartThrob:

QuoteWe just disagree, that's all.  Plus, I have no idea what you are saying.  It makes no sense. [hence the reference to legalese].

If I have died and resurrected with Christ, that's it.  It's finished.  I already know that I have consciousness outside of this body.

We discussed this before and you did indicate that you did understand what I was saying, whether agreed or disagreed. I haven't changed from then in the things I was saying. What I had been saying is that Romans 6 speaks about being planted together in the likeness of Christ's death and resurrection (meaning that deliverance from sin is passing from death to life figuratively with physical death being an illustration). This means that we can "pass from death to life" being delivered from sin, and still LITERALLY die as mortals and LITERALLY be resurrected. It's not parsing words. It's acknowledging the context.

I am referring to this: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6756.msg74659#msg74659

In any case, we can just agree to disagree.

^NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:01:02 PM
^NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.

I read it along with the rest of the context. Those who are alive SHALL NOT go before those who are dead. They will be raised together. So God will bring with him those who are resurrected and those who are alive and instantly changed to incorruptible.  When comes the end the saints will appear with him in glory to the world, and the world will be received into their glorious liberty. This is the "each man to his order" described in 1 Cor 15. Do you see the impartiality in that?

Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:10:52 PM
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

No because those who are alive shall not go before those who are dead. It's impartial. It all happens together for the saints, none going before the other.

So when God says he will bring his saints with him, I see that as being he will raise them all together when the time comes. Jesus Christ IS the resurrection. So just as Jesus prayed to God to be clothed with Himself to be returned to his former glory (his perfecting occurring on the third day), so also shall the saints be raised to immortality by being clothed the same way. That is the resurrection. It begins by being raised in likeness (deliverance from sin now), and is completed by being raised to immortality all together in Christ, no more flesh.

Jesus spoke of death in at least two different ways. For example, he sometimes referred to living people as dead. This could be called metaphorical death. Here are some examples.

Matthew 8:21-23
And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

The "dead" who were to bury the disciple's father were presumably that person's living relatives; they were "dead" in a spiritual sense.

Here is another example of metaphorical "death." The prodigal son, while living his life of "fun," was called "dead."   

Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Paul spoke of this too:

1 Timothy 5:6
But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The opposite metaphor, of dead persons being called alive, was also employed by Jesus. For example, he referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as living.

Mark 12:26-27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Here is another example that plainly shows in what sense Jesus meant this to be understood. He spoke of a young girl who had recently died as "not dead," but sleeping.

Mark 5:38-42
38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.
41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.
42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.

The girl was certainly dead, or there would be little point to the story. But it illustrates what Jesus meant, when he said those who believe in him will "never die." They can be raised to life in an instant.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jesus spoke of people who died but were to be raised to life as "asleep." The same is seen in Acts, when Stephen was stoned to death.

Acts 7:60
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

When Jesus referred to his own death on the cross, he did not call it "sleep," but he referred to being really dead. 

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Doug

QuoteJesus spoke of death in at least two different ways. For example, he sometimes referred to living people as dead. This could be called metaphorical death. Here are some examples.

I agree. A metaphorical death, sin = sleep. And a literal death, mortality = sleep. Both are sleep.

So.....to be raised to newness of life, free from sin by receiving baptism of the Holy Spirit is a figurative (ie being planted together in the likeness) of Christ's LITERAL death and resurrection (via Romans 6). To receive a figurative resurrection is to be delivered from sin.....yet still mortal.

To attain the resurrection of the dead literally means that the dead shall raise. The living are not raised, they HAVE been raised, that means they started off dead. That goes for BOTH the metaphorical and the literal.

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:10:52 PM
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

Hi WhiteWings,

I have a problem with the red words as well. There are a lot of scriptures that indicate that there are saints with Christ now. If Christ came back in the disciples day... I would say while John was still living... and took all those who were in him back with him, that would explain a lot of verses that are now confusing to me.

Jesus said those who pierced him would see him and he said many times, "I come quickly". Or the time is at hand. There are a few scriptures that say Christ will bring saints with him. He also said "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death , till they see the kingdom of God". 

What if Christ came back after all the disciples were dead, except for John and took all the saints who were dead and alive at that time back with him? When he comes back he will bring them with him, set up an earthly kingdom where the disciples will set on twelve thrones and Christ will teach the world until all is in all. Or maybe the kingdom has already happened?

Just some thoughts.

I will probably get booted off now that I have posted. This darn computer. :mblush:

CHB

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Who is that great [vast] cloud of witnesses?  compassed about--we are literally surrounded by them...


Are these the same clouds--


Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


We see that John bows down to worship the angel, but the angel corrects him, saying, I am a felllow servant and your brother.


8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

--Rev 22



wow--who is that angel?

"fellowservant"

G4889
σύνδουλος
sundoulos
soon'-doo-los
From G4862 and G1401; a co-slave, that is, servitor or ministrant of the same master (human or divine): - fellowservant.



[of thy] "brethren"

G80
ἀδελφός
adelphos
ad-el-fos'
From G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like [H1]): - brother.


"of them which keep" [the sayings of this book]

G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.


Isaiah 52:8
Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.

Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2009, 03:28:12 AM
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Who is that great [vast] cloud of witnesses?  compassed about--we are literally surrounded by them...

They could be nimbus clouds or cumulous clouds.
Why must everyone look for the esoteric in a verse? Can't the cloud of witnesses just be a whole lot of Jewish believers who were witnessing to God's power in their lives when Hebrews was written?

Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2009, 03:06:14 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:10:52 PM
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

Quote
Hi WhiteWings,

I have a problem with the red words as well. There are a lot of scriptures that indicate that there are saints with Christ now. If Christ came back in the disciples day... I would say while John was still living... and took all those who were in him back with him, that would explain a lot of verses that are now confusing to me.

You just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

Quote
Jesus said those who pierced him would see him and he said many times, "I come quickly". Or the time is at hand. There are a few scriptures that say Christ will bring saints with him. He also said "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death , till they see the kingdom of God". 

Please quote those verses verbatum.

Quote
What if Christ came back after all the disciples were dead, except for John and took all the saints who were dead and alive at that time back with him? When he comes back he will bring them with him, set up an earthly kingdom where the disciples will set on twelve thrones and Christ will teach the world until all is in all. Or maybe the kingdom has already happened?

What if unicorns turn into elephants. pink ones at that.

Quote
I will probably get booted off now that I have posted. This darn computer. :mblush:

CHB

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:01:02 PM
^NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.

1Th 4:14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."

WW, you can't just cut a verse out of its context and build a theological construct from it like Jesus bringing back with Him immortal souls of dead saints who were playing volleyball with Him in Heaven until He returns. Here is the context:

1Th 4:14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."
1Th 4:15-17  For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,  (16)  for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first,  (17)  Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

God, through Jesus will lead forth together with Him the dead who are going to rise from their graves and the living saints at that exact same time will be changed. Then the two groups at the exact same time will meet the Lord in the air and from that point they will be led together with Him. Get it?

QuoteYou just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

Hi T :icon_flower:
IF I MAY - maybe there things you DONT get Bud?, like we are not of this Forum to BROW beat or force feed ANYONE, lots could  be said of you , like us all,  AS IN theres somethings WE JUST DONT GET YET?

so Kindly Back off.

ty T :icon_flower:

Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2009, 03:28:12 AM
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


Who is that great [vast] cloud of witnesses?  compassed about--we are literally surrounded by them...

To know specifically, just look at the context.

Checkout Hebrews 12:1 and compare it to the entire Chapter of Hebrews 11.

The word "witness" was translated from "martus" into three English words in the KJV: "witness" "record" and "martyr." The word "martus" can indeed be a reference to one who watches, but also as one who speaks:

Ac 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

2 Co 1:23 -
Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare youI came not as yet unto Corinth.

Applying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witnesses (the RECORD bearers - the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected. We are surrounded by the WITNESS that they left us when they died.

Quote from: SethApplying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witnesses (the RECORD bearers - the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected.

Yes, they are those who gave a good report in the OT.  Those who had faith.  You cannot have faith without Christ.  So, if you have faith, you have Christ by definition.

They didn't achieve the promises--but WE did.

He says this--

39 All of those people were praised because they had faith. But none of them received what God had promised. 40 God had planned something better for us. So they would only be made perfect together with us.

--Heb 11

1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

--Heb 12

That is saying to me, you are surrounded by a vast number of witnesses to the truth--they are all around us--

[we also] "are compassed about"

G4029
περίκειμαι
perikeimai
per-ik'-i-mahee
From G4012 and G2749; to lie all around, that is, inclose, encircle, hamper (literally or figuratively): - be bound (compassed) with, hang about.

Well, who might that be?  Certainly not the atheists I'm surrounded by.

  He goes on to tell us--look here--you can communicate with them--They are not asleep in the earth--they are on the mountaintop--it's a city--with an innumerable company of angels, and there's the general assembly and church of the firstborn--and the spirits of just men made perfect--and God himself.

You think we're going to have to wait until some distant resurrection to experience this?

You can, not me, though.  This is mine now and forever.


22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Heb 12

Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2009, 07:37:48 AM

Quote from: SethApplying that to what we see in Hebrews 11: "these all died in faith not recieving the promises" that those are the cloud of witnesses (the RECORD bearers - the ones who testified but did not receive) it is reasonable that those who died did indeed bear record of what we have received and that they WILL receive when they are resurrected.

Yes, they are those who gave a good report in the OT.  Those who had faith.  You cannot have faith without Christ.  So, if you have faith, you have Christ by definition.

They didn't achieve the promises--but WE did.

They died in faith WITHOUT receiving the promise. The record they left of faith is the "cloud" we are surrounded by. I hope you don't mind me putting "cloud" in quotes, seeing as how we both know that its a metaphor, even if we disagree as to what it is a metaphor of.

The record was left by the patriarchs who are dead and that is the cloud of witnesses.

QuoteHe goes on to tell us--look here--you can communicate with them--They are not asleep in the earth--they are on the mountaintop--it's a city--with an innumerable company of angels, and there's the general assembly and church of the firstborn--and the spirits of just men made perfect--and God himself.

You think we're going to have to wait until some distant resurrection to experience this?

You can't communicate with dead people, even if Bruce Willis is your therapist. They are asleep in the earth. They will be perfected together with us when we are resurrected.

Quote from: Tony N on September 26, 2009, 05:14:07 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:01:02 PM
^NAS1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

How exactly should I read the red words?
I read it as when Jesus raised from the dead or returned to heaven He brought those that where asleep/dead with Him to Heave/Father.

1Th 4:14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him."

WW, you can't just cut a verse out of its context and build a theological construct from it like Jesus bringing back with Him immortal souls of dead saints who were playing volleyball with Him in Heaven until He returns.

It's possibly, a fact if you will, I see things out of context. But as I wrote a few message back I did read the other verses.
Plus I did read the red words. It's wrong to quote out of context. But it's also wrong to ignore the red words because they don't fit in what is understood from that context. For me there is a contradiction. Not in the Word but in my understanding.
And I highlighted the contradiction in red. That's different from  building theology around the red words. It's my attempt to align all words in that context....

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 05:55:47 AM
2 Co 1:23 - Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare youI came not as yet unto Corinth.

:cloud9: Thanks Seth........I never noticed that Paul was asking God for a record upon his soul before, which would be fruitless if it ceased to exist at death, as some claim. The soul is indeed the "record keeper" of the deeds of the body, and they are the great cloud of witnesses or "record keepers" that surround us. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 11:33:52 AM

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 05:55:47 AM
2 Co 1:23 - Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare youI came not as yet unto Corinth.

:cloud9: Thanks Seth........I never noticed that Paul was asking God for a record upon his soul before, which would be fruitless if it ceased to exist at death, as some claim. The soul is indeed the "record keeper" of the deeds of the body, and they are the great cloud of witnesses or "record keepers" that surround us. Blessings....

The record keeper is not the soul, but God. The point of Hebrews 12:1 is that the record left by the now dead patriarchs is that they had faith. That is the record they left us.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  

no worries no fear  :bgdance:

Quote from: Taffy on September 26, 2009, 05:21:22 AM

QuoteYou just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

Hi T :icon_flower:
IF I MAY - maybe there things you DONT get Bud?, like we are not of this Forum to BROW beat or force feed ANYONE, lots could  be said of you , like us all,  AS IN theres somethings WE JUST DONT GET YET?

so Kindly Back off.

ty T :icon_flower:

Hey bud, we beat you in one war and we'll beat you in another so YOU back off  :laughing7:

Concerning Hebrews 12:1,2:
"1 This cloud of "witnesses" consists of those just enumerated, who witness to the life of faith. It has no reference to any who are watching the Hebrews. A witness is one who testifies, and it is the testimony of all the faithful, from Abel down, which constituted the moral atmosphere in which the Hebrews lived. Nevertheless, their popular sin was unbelief. Even as their fathers had witnessed the faith of Moses and saw the signs, yet were strewn along the wilderness for their lack of faith in God, so the Hebrews were prone to question the promises and to turn from the trials that lay along the path of faith.

"2 All the other examples of faith pale before the supreme Example. Even Abraham, the father of the faithful, failed once and again in the very virtue for which he is distinguished. But the Saviour, as a man, never faltered in His implicit confidence in God. He did always those things which pleased God without regard to the consequences to Himself. When His message was rejected, He acquiesced. Even though His God forsook Him in the hour of deepest need and sorest suffering, it did not shake His faith, for, at the very last, He committed His spirit into the Father's hands. And He alone, of all the faithful, has risen and received some reward for His faithfulness, for He has ascended to the right hand of God's throne. Such an example as this should be the most powerful of all incentives for the Hebrews to endure the trials of the way, and persevere to the end." Concordant Commentary

Just the very fact that people here continue to make statements leading me to believe the dead are alive is telling me they just don't get it. Maybe they just don't want to get it? Maybe the paganism they have adulterated with their Christianity is just too loveable to them to give up?

Against their paganism and demonic spiritism stands these verses:
Please print these verses out and make several copies. Tape one copy in front of you in your car, one for the middle of your bathroom mirror, one on the wall of your bathroom in front of you as you sit on the can and contemplate these anti-paganistic verses as regards the dead, oh and tape one in the middle of your television:

"Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die,
But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Psa 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.

"All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor,
for there is no doing or devising or knowledge or
wisdom in the unseen where you are going" (Ecc.9:10).

"Indeed the unseen cannot acclaim You, nor can death praise You;
and those who descend into a crypt cannot look forward to Your faithfulness.
The living! the living one! he is acclaiming You as I do today;
the father makes known to his sons Your faithfulness" (Isa.38:18,19).


1 Tim.6:16 "[Christ] alone hath immortality"


So it is Scripturally impossible for Christ to have preached to dead people while He was dead.
Only in paganism and demonic spiritism is this possible.

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 08:08:05 AM
You can't communicate with dead people, even if Bruce Willis is your therapist. They are asleep in the earth. They will be perfected together with us when we are resurrected.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2009, 07:37:48 AM
Well, who might that be?  Certainly not the atheists I'm surrounded by.

  He goes on to tell us--look here--you can communicate with them--They are not asleep in the earth--they are on the mountaintop--it's a city--with an innumerable company of angels, and there's the general assembly and church of the firstborn--and the spirits of just men made perfect--and God himself.

You think we're going to have to wait until some distant resurrection to experience this?

You can, not me, though.  This is mine now and forever.

This is in direct opposition to Scripture. The only way to communicate with the dead is with demonic spiritism and even then, one is not really communicating with the dead but with familiar demonic spirits.

Remember, Molly, these verses:

"Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die,
But the dead know nothing whatsoever;
There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Psa 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.

"All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor,
for there is no doing or devising or knowledge or
wisdom in the unseen where you are going" (Ecc.9:10).

"Indeed the unseen cannot acclaim You, nor can death praise You;
and those who descend into a crypt cannot look forward to Your faithfulness.
The living! the living one! he is acclaiming You as I do today;
the father makes known to his sons Your faithfulness" (Isa.38:18,19).

In light of the above verses, the question must be asked:

How are we to take Hebrews 12?
Does Hebrews 12 say anywhere we can communicate with dead people?

Since "no one has ascended into Heaven except He Who descended, The
Son of mankind who is in Heaven," how can there be dead saints with Him?

No, dear friend, it is Catholicism which is mixed with paganism which asserts
we can pray to dead saints. When Constantine, a Roman ruler became a "christian"
and made Christianity the state religion of Rome he amalgamated the pagain religions with the Christian religion and thus was born the Catholic church. When he built the first huge church building in Rome he had half of it devoted to the Christian religion and half devoted to the pagan religion. That is what people in politics try to do, they try to please everyone.

I pray God will give all of you the grace to get this paganistic idea of immortal souls out of your lives. The only way, the only truly christian way to meet the Lord is via resurrection of the dead. Paganism does away with this need. Christianity makes the stand that resurrection is vital to our faith.

Tony

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 12:25:22 PM
The record keeper is not the soul, but God. The point of Hebrews 12:1 is that the record left by the now dead patriarchs is that they had faith. That is the record they left us.

:cloud9: So we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses/record keepers, ie. "Gods", are we? Blessings....

The scripture speaks of spiritual tabernacles (or houses) that God is building for us to dwell in. Since they are spiritual they are not subject to decay, and they don't fall apart. Jesus said,

John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Christ is preparing all of us for his kingdom. Our spiritual tabernacles, that we put on at the resurrection, are collectively called a holy city in Rev. 21:2.

Abraham and the prophets looked for a heavenly country, and a heavenly city.
   
Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The city is still being built. The wall of the city has twelve foundations, with the names of the twelve apostles written on them. The gates have the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on them. Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul also said "ye are God's building." And we are "labourers together with God." The foundation is Christ; Paul warned, "But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Wrong beliefs will get burned up in the fire.

Doug

Quote from: TonyThe only way to communicate with the dead is with demonic spiritism and even then, one is not really communicating with the dead but with familiar demonic spirits.

Yes, I agree.  I'm not talking about seance  lol. 

I do enjoy seeing what each person believes, because it is so personal and interesting.

No one has yet told me how else to interpret Heb 12:22-24. Was he just talking through his hat? You are come unto mount Sion, he says.  That's not future, that's present.   It's not the only place such things are talked about.


11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

--Mat 8:11

Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 05:03:29 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 26, 2009, 12:25:22 PM
The record keeper is not the soul, but God. The point of Hebrews 12:1 is that the record left by the now dead patriarchs is that they had faith. That is the record they left us.

:cloud9: So we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses/record keepers, ie. "Gods", are we? Blessings....

Lol, I love you Card.  :HeartThrob:

Anyway, the witness they left is the faith they had so that WE should continue in the faith. The cloud of witnesses that surround us are in their tombs, just like David who is both dead and buried.

Hey, that's just how I see it. Love you Card, and you too Molly.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: chuckt on September 26, 2009, 02:28:31 PM
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.  

no worries no fear  :bgdance:

That's my favorite.

Such a strange order he puts that in--died, rose, revived.... :gangel:


"rose"

G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
an-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).


"revived"

G326
ἀναζάω
anazaō
an-ad-zah'-o
From G303 and G2198; to recover life (literally or figuratively): - (be a-) live again, revive.

Quote from: Tony N on September 26, 2009, 05:05:36 AM

Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2009, 03:06:14 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2009, 08:10:52 PM
Seth, I've read the other verses before I posted but still I'm confused about the red words.
"Bring with Him"
a] When?
b] From where?
c] To where.

Jesus is in heaven right now so doesn't that mean that those He brought with Him are also there?

Quote
Hi WhiteWings,

I have a problem with the red words as well. There are a lot of scriptures that indicate that there are saints with Christ now. If Christ came back in the disciples day... I would say while John was still living... and took all those who were in him back with him, that would explain a lot of verses that are now confusing to me.

You just don't get it do you? Repeat after me: "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." "Christ alone hath immortality." Say it till your voice turns horse. There is no verse in all the Bible that says saints are with Jesus right now. That is impossible. They must wait for His return to this earth and then they meet the Lord. It is that hard a concept?

Quote
Jesus said those who pierced him would see him and he said many times, "I come quickly". Or the time is at hand. There are a few scriptures that say Christ will bring saints with him. He also said "there be some standing here that shall not taste of death , till they see the kingdom of God". 

Please quote those verses verbatum.

Quote
What if Christ came back after all the disciples were dead, except for John and took all the saints who were dead and alive at that time back with him? When he comes back he will bring them with him, set up an earthly kingdom where the disciples will set on twelve thrones and Christ will teach the world until all is in all. Or maybe the kingdom has already happened?

What if unicorns turn into elephants. pink ones at that.

Quote
I will probably get booted off now that I have posted. This darn computer. :mblush:

Hi Tony,

No,  "I don't get it" ALL YET, that is why I posted what I did, am trying to figure it all out. There are a lot of verses that would make more sense if what I said were true. I know Paul said "only God has immortality" but did you not read what I said about Paul being dead and the only disciple who would have been alive when Christ came back was John? At the time Paul said "only God has immortality" it was true. Remember when one of the disciples asked Jesus if John would live forever and Jesus answered and said "what is it to you if he tarry till I come". John would have been the only disciple who was alive when this happened. While Paul was alive no one had received the promises nor been resurrected.  Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.  :mblush: You may be right and me wrong I don't know but I sure have a lot of questions on this subject. I do not believe anyone can communicate with the dead.  

CHB

Hi Molly,
The grammatical name for for when something is spoken of as literally future but spoken of as taking place now, is a figure of speech called "proleptic."

For instance, Paul says "Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of darkness and  transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love" (Col.1:13) is written as if it is present tense, but in reality it is in the aorist which has the sign of the past and future in the aorist.

Now the wonderful thing is that we can live now as if this has already happened. But the reality is that it will happen in fact in the future when we meet the Lord in the air.

I think it is the same with those Hebrew believers of 12:22-24. They, in their mind and spirit can live as if they have literally come to what the writer writes about. But it will actually come to pass when the Lord returns and sets up the 1000 year kingdom.

Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2009, 06:34:46 PM

Quote from: TonyThe only way to communicate with the dead is with demonic spiritism and even then, one is not really communicating with the dead but with familiar demonic spirits.

Yes, I agree.  I'm not talking about seance  lol. 

I do enjoy seeing what each person believes, because it is so personal and interesting.

No one has yet told me how else to interpret Heb 12:22-24. Was he just talking through his hat? You are come unto mount Sion, he says.  That's not future, that's present.   It's not the only place such things are talked about.

Verse 21 is about Mount Sinai and the law whereas verse 22 is about mount Zion where there is the new covenant (vs.24) which displaces the old under Moses. I don't think the writers of Hebrews was telling them all that they have physically come to mount Zion and to 10,000 messengers etc. But spiritually, by believing in the Christ, the Messiah, they have done away with the old law which was through the hands of messengers on Mt. Sinai to the new covenant with 10,000 messengers. Of course I don't know everything and could be wrong about this issue. I'm just kind of writing to myself as I write this.

Quote
11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

--Mat 8:11

Yes, verse 11 is about Abe, Isaac and Jacob being resurrected and going into the kingdom which will be set up on the earth and many from the east and west will come there too and sit down with them.

 :cloud9: I love you too, Seth.  :girlheart: Glad you're not taking me discussing this in a bad light. I appreciate that.  :thumbsup:

I understand that their faith is a witness to us, I get that. But that faith is not surrounding us by being dead and buried and in a tomb, and frankly, if that is the extent of faith, then what do I need to believe any different from the heathen for, then? For they have faith that lands them in the tombs, too.

Even Jesus said, "she's not dead, she sleepeth", and they that were present laughed Him to scorn. When I sleep, I'm not really dead, I'm just not "with it" and it could be said at that moment, that I know nothing (some might argue that point exists when I'm awake as well, but I digress  :winkgrin:).

God never intended for man to die; they were free to eat of ALL the trees in the garden (except the tree of knowledge of good and evil) including the tree of life. He said in the DAY that ye eat of it ye shall sure die, and sure enough Adam lived a few decades under that PERFECT day of 1000 years, and then he died.

They were removed from the presence of that "tree" to keep them from eating of it in their fallen state and living forever in that fallen state. We hear this thought echoed in the NT where it talks about there being no more remission for sins after we have tasted of the heavenly gift and willfully transgressed.

So someone tell me again; why.....after gaining entrance to it again, and eating of the tree of life, are we STILL all dying?

Let me share what I've seen. Our souls must come into union with His Spirit; this is the sanctification, and the first resurrection, for if we make ourselves (our soul and body) a living (Adam was made a living soul) sacrifice by tying ourselves down on the altar with cords of love that cannot be broken, then out of that "death" comes life, the life of UNION.

There were two sets of curtains/veils in the tabernacle. Going thru the first is as the rending of OUR flesh as we laid down our lives to enter into the Spirit which is Christ, symbolized by the walk of the priests from the outer to the inner court. This is not an instantaneous thing, you don't go from 30 ford to 60 fold, you start at 31, and walk out your own salvation (means deliverance) with fear and trembling, in this realm.

In the outer court it is spirit salvation, but the inner court begins soul salvation process, for we are saved, spirit, soul, and body, which is why the apostles said they/we are waiting for the redemption of our bodies, because they had already been working on the sanctification of their souls in the inner court experience that is Pentecost.

This why the souls that have not made it to the end of this union, because it was not time yet in God's timeline, have not just "ceased to exist", because their bodies have died. Why? Because Pentecost was a wedding, and their soul was being prepared as a spotless virgin bride to be consummated by His Spirit that it might produce a SON. Fullness of times, is as the fullness of a womb, that is getting ready to unveil the firstborn Son.

If those souls ceased to exist, this is no different than when in the NT He was asked about divorce. He told the Pharisees that because of the hardness of your hearts Moses (the law/letter understanding) allowed a bill of divorcement. Hardness of heart is a Hebrew understanding that means "dull of hearing". So what He was saying to them was, that since you refuse to listen to the Spirit behind the letter, the letter/Moses will allow you to put away your wife/soul = DIE.

This is the reason why anyone joining themselves to "she that is divorced" committeth adultery. She that is "divorced" in this understanding, is one of the souls that have been "put off" by her husband for "fornication", which is being joined to another SPIRIT that is not His = not sanctified. This is the real reason why we are told not to talk to the dead (necromancy), as in not "joining" ourselves to a "divorced woman/soul", for indeed if they knew anything (the dead know nothing) of lasting value apart from the Spirit (unless they were born out of season), they would not be dead!

And they are not ours to join ourselves to, but are HIS bride, and He will attend to her after He attends to the firstfruits, ie. those that ARE DEAD IN CHRIST (from laying their lives on the altar, yet live in a body = firstfruits) shall arise first, then those that are alive (have NOT died to self to enter FULLY into union with Christ, whether in a body or NOT) and remain, shall be caught up to meet Him in the "air" = His breath/Spirit.

Any questions as to who is alive and who is dead, Jesus said let the dead bury the dead, YOU FOLLOW ME. Blessings.....

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

--Luke 4




8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


--Eph 4




[descended first into the] "lower" [parts of the earth]

G2737
κατώτερος
katōteros
kat-o'-ter-os
Compound from G2736; inferior (locally, of Hades): - lower.

Psa 139:15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Obviously the lowest parts of the earth and Christ going to the lower parts of the earth have some meaning but surely not some sort of Dantean hell.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

"But more conclusive is the phrase "heart of the sea."
"It is applied to the place at which the Israelites crossed the "Red" Sea (Ex.15:8; CV "Terminal Sea"). It describes the way of a ship upon the surface of the sea (Prov.30:19). But the most striking and instructive example is its fourfold reference to the city of Tyre, which was partly on an island on the coast of Canaan. Indeed, the island was so near the shore that Alexander the Great, in order to conquer it, built a mole out of the ruins of the shore city and thus connected it with the mainland. Tyre was far, indeed, from being in the center of the sea in any sense. And if Tyre might be described as being in the heart of the sea, what difficulty can there be in speaking of our Lord's tomb as "in the heart" of the earth (Matt.12:40)? It may sound strange to us, but most natural to those who heard Him.

" The same principle applies to the phrase "the lower parts of the earth" (Eph.4:9). Neither the Psalm which is quoted nor the context in Ephesians, give any color to a subterranean visit. The contrast is between Sinai (Psa.68:17,18), when our Lord did not condescend to the lower parts of the earth (but came down only to a high, inaccessible mountain, and the captivity to the law was thus prefigured), and the humiliation of His earthly life, when He, literally as well as figuratively, condescended into the very vales and depths (bringing gifts, and, through His death, resurrection and ascension, leading captive the captivity which Sinai had brought). The rendering "multitude of captives" has no foundation in fact. The baptism of our Lord actually took place at the lowest spot on the surface of the earth." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.55).

QuoteThe scripture you quoted, Heb 11:40, seems to say the saints of the OT are to be together with us in the resurrection, not in a different one. IMO.

Doug

Yes, I'm sorry for being a litte too glib there. 
This is a complicated subject, --maybe you could help me out.


22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

--1 cor 15



Three groups are made alive in this order: 1)Christ the firstfruits, 2) they that are Christ's at his coming, 3)the rest after Christ puts down all rule, authority, and power.

Three different harvests--Barley, wheat, and grapes--represents 3 different groups harvested to Christ?

We see that Christ the firstfruits include more than Jesus himself [although he is the first of the firstfruits of them that slept]:  these would be the firstfruits of the first harvest [barley]--

Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)


James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


These would also include the Old Testament saints of Hebrews 11 [of whom the world was not worthy]


Each harvest has a firstfruits.  The first harvest is barley and Christ is the firstfruits of that harvest.  We see when Christ says the fields are white with harvest--he is referring to barley which turns white right before harvest--so this is referring to the barley harvest [which is also Passover].

John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.


The three harvests are also aligned with the three feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.

Now I can 'see' Cardinal saying the three harvests represent spirit, soul, and body.  And, I would agree with that if she did because I always agree with Cardinal rofl.  But I think also, an historical time schedule is involved here, which is something that Tony is looking at, as well.  We have both Old Testament saints [who would be a type of firstfruits with us--?] and the rest of Israel [divorced by God--a different harvest?].

I'm trying to clarify this a little.  Can you help?

Here's a question relevant to this thread--and I'm trying not to mix too many metaphors.  If Christ the firstfruits [of the barley harvest] [also known as the poor man's harvest--blessed are the poor in spirit:for theirs is the kingdom of heaven]  is the raising of the spirit of just men made perfect, are these the 'clouds,'  are these spiritually alive with Christ at this moment though they be dead physically, can we sit at the marriage feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob now?  In other words, for these are not asleep--for we shall not all sleep--this is the better resurrection...?




5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

--Eph 2

Quote from: Molly on September 27, 2009, 06:20:19 PM
If Christ the firstfruits [of the barley harvest] [also known as the poor man's harvest--blessed are the poor in spirit:for theirs is the kingdom of heaven]  is the raising of the spirit of just men made perfect, are these the 'clouds,'  are these spiritually alive with Christ at this moment though they be dead physically, can we sit at the marriage feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob now?  In other words, for these are not asleep--for we shall not all sleep--this is the better resurrection...?

:cloud9: Good post, Molly, and yes I WOULD say that about the 3 harvests, LOL.

They are alive in Christ, and yes the marriage supper is going on now for whosoever will.
The first part of that is when He joins us to Himself thru His Spirit VIA REVELATION. The revelation that we are receiving OF Him, IS Him revealing Himself IN THEM, and then revealing that same glory IN US.

Christ IN YOU, is the hope of glory. There is no glory "out there" somewhere, no glory waiting to "fly away", no glory laying down our physical bodies. His glory is His nature manifested, which is rooted in the love of the Father for His creation.

I wish I could say this in a way that it would really hit everyone, but Christ is SPIRIT that is outside of time, He IS the 7th day of no part darkness, and the promised land we are to FULLY enter into. When He said, Abraham saw my day and was glad, when do you think He saw it, and do you think He was talking about a literal 24 hour day?

When He told the Pharisees who tried to claim their natural heritage from Abraham as a banner over them, He rebuked them by saying if you knew Abraham, you would know Me. They were stunned because he was barely 30 years old in the natural, so they could not comprehend how He could know a patriarch from so long ago.

And yet He told them Abraham knew HIM (us in Him) and He knew Abraham (Him in us). They didn't perceive that the One who was standing there speaking to them from heaven was the SEED of Abraham, which is Spirit, and if the Seed was standing there, SO WAS THE FRUIT, EVEN IF THEY COULDN'T SEE IT. Halleluyah!

THIS is why we are surrounded (as the fruit surrounds the seed that is in it) by so great a cloud of witnesses, because you cannot separate the SEED from the fruit, FOR THE LIFE OF THE FRUIT IS CONTAINED IN THE SEED. It might be planted in a corruptible body, but it is raised in an incorruptible, JUST LIKE THE SEED. Halleluyah!

And now can you see why Paul should talk, not about literally dying to manifest the glory, but emphatically stating that the glory is going to be revealed in a people that are ALIVE? Because this same SEED is in us.

The manifestation means to reveal or uncover. All of creation is waiting for this glory to be revealed or uncovered. Do you think anyone here in the creation would notice if you put off your body (literally died), and then Christ was revealed to have been in you? NO! That happens everyday, 24/7 and no here takes notice. But let a people die to self, and lay all the glory at His feet as crowns, so that Father can rend the veil in a people that can't die anymore, and creation will cry out! Blessings....

good stuff gals
  I am hearing ya !  :gangel: wow!!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Yes, I'm sorry for being a litte too glib there.
This is a complicated subject, --maybe you could help me out.


22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

--1 cor 15



Three groups are made alive in this order: 1)Christ the firstfruits, 2) they that are Christ's at his coming, 3)the rest after Christ puts down all rule, authority, and power.

Yes. That seems to be supported by 1 cor 15.

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Three different harvests--Barley, wheat, and grapes--represents 3 different groups harvested to Christ?

I don't see what scriptures the idea of distinct barley harvest, as symbolic of a resurrection, rests upon. It may be someone's unfounded opinion.

Wheat and barley harvests seem to have the same significance in Joel 1:11. They don't refer to a resurrection, but perhaps have the same meaning Jesus attached to the fields that were white and ready to harvest in John 4:35. Where else is a barley harvest mentioned as symbolic in prophecy?

And, what about the rice harvest? Or the fig harvest? Or the cucumber harvest? etc. 

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

We see that Christ the firstfruits include more than Jesus himself [although he is the first of the firstfruits of them that slept]:  these would be the firstfruits of the first harvest [barley]--

Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


1 Corinthians 16:15
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)


James 1:18
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Yes, and I think they can be identified with the firstfruits in Rev. 14:4.

Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Being a "virgin" can be interpreted spiritually, as someone who does not follow seducing spirits and seduce others by teaching false doctrines. [2 Cor. 11:3]

Quote

These would also include the Old Testament saints of Hebrews 11 [of whom the world was not worthy]

I agree.

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Each harvest has a firstfruits.  The first harvest is barley and Christ is the firstfruits of that harvest.  We see when Christ says the fields are white with harvest--he is referring to barley which turns white right before harvest--so this is referring to the barley harvest [which is also Passover].

John 4:35
Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

In my view, when Christ spoke of the fields as "ready to harvest" he was not referring to a resurrection at all, but he meant people becoming converted, and believing the gospel. That is a different kind of harvest. Thousands were added to the church in the early period after Pentecost.

J. B. Coffman wrote:

They are white already unto the harvest ...
See under John 4:30, above. The white-clad multitude passing over the green fields between the village and the well had indeed turned them white; and our Lord was looking upon the immediate harvest of souls as contrasted with the grain harvest yet four months in the future. By directing the eyes of the apostles to what was taking place, he restrained their further insistence that he should eat. Dr. Tristram, as quoted by Westcott, "found the wheat and barley near Jerusalem, sown just after Christmas, four inches high on February 2Oth."

The comparison of converted souls to a harvest made a profound impression upon John who made five references to it in as many verses (Revelation 14:14-19). "Send forth thy sickle and reap; for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe," etc.

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

The three harvests are also aligned with the three feasts of Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles.

Now I can 'see' Cardinal saying the three harvests represent spirit, soul, and body.  And, I would agree with that if she did because I always agree with Cardinal rofl.  But I think also, an historical time schedule is involved here, which is something that Tony is looking at, as well.  We have both Old Testament saints [who would be a type of firstfruits with us--?] and the rest of Israel [divorced by God--a different harvest?].

I'm trying to clarify this a little.  Can you help?

Jesus spoke of "summer" as the time when we see the signs of his coming [Mat. 24:32; Luke 21:30] and said we should pray that our flight will not be in "winter, or on the sabbath day." [Mat. 24:20; Mark 13:18]

Winter would be the time after the harvest; to have to flee in the winter would mean one had missed out on the harvest! He would not be included in the 144,000, and so would be included in the second group in Rev 7. "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." It is best to be in the first group, I think Jesus was suggesting.

The sabbath day is the type of our promised "rest." [Heb. 4:9] To be left behind, would mean that person would need to endure the tribulation of the judgment, when others had already inherited their "rest."

Quote from: Molly on Today at 11:20:19 AM

Here's a question relevant to this thread--and I'm trying not to mix too many metaphors.  If Christ the firstfruits [of the barley harvest] [also known as the poor man's harvest--blessed are the poor in spirit:for theirs is the kingdom of heaven]  is the raising of the spirit of just men made perfect, are these the 'clouds,'  are these spiritually alive with Christ at this moment though they be dead physically, can we sit at the marriage feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob now?  In other words, for these are not asleep--for we shall not all sleep--this is the better resurrection...?




5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

--Eph 2

Jesus spoke of the judgment when the Gentiles of past ages will be raised up to life. That's when they will hear the gospel.

Luke 10:13-14
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Matthew 12:41-42
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Paul spoke of the judgment as "the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." [Rom. 2:16]

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Doug

QuoteThree different harvests--Barley, wheat, and grapes--represents 3 different groups harvested to Christ?



I don't see what scriptures the idea of distinct barley harvest, as symbolic of a resurrection, rests upon. It may be someone's unfounded opinion.

Wheat and barley harvests seem to have the same significance in Joel 1:11. They don't refer to a resurrection, but perhaps have the same meaning Jesus attached to the fields that were white and ready to harvest in John 4:35. Where else is a barley harvest mentioned as symbolic in prophecy?

And, what about the rice harvest? Or the fig harvest? Or the cucumber harvest? etc

  Hi Bro D !
  just wanted to add this , because I have looked and been in conversations sharing these thoughts  with others over the years on the barley harvest , barley = grain  meaning in the sense of roughness

  it was for the poor  and Jesus told us here




Mar 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.   

it is symbolic of  Exodus 23  a good chapter on how to treat  the less fortunate and be Blessed of the Lord

  I am not trying to  cause any  trouble , just help a bit  :thumbsup:

   :HeartThrob: rose

As I see it, Christ preached "to the dead" while he was here on earth.

And the gospel continues to be preached "to the dead" (to those who "sleep"... "in the night") here "in the earth".

Yes, ONLY CHRIST hath immortality!!  :thumbsup:

But it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality (by being "clothed" with our "heavenly" body... which we should know that if this earthly tabernacle were dissolved, that WE HAVE this house of God, not made with hands).  :wink3:

We do not desire to be UN-CLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON!! Right?  :nod:

Christ words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. They are to be "rightly divided" in order to be "spiritually discerned". Right? And we are to be looking upon that which is NOT SEEN (that is "eternal") rather than upon that which IS SEEN (that is temporal), right?

So, as I see it, the physical grave is merely a shadow/type of "the body of this death" of which Paul spoke, that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set in fire of hell/Gehenna".

When Christ said "TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise" He was speaking a SPIRITUAL truth, as it is TODAY when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts that we are given right to THE TREE OF LIFE (which is IN THE PARADISE OF GOD).

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection. As far as I can tell, that is just the shadow/type of a spiritual reality... just as Christ healing the physically lame, deaf, blind and dead were physical types of spiritual realities.  :Chinscratch:

We tend to look at verses that say "the dead know not anything" or "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" and we apply that to physically dead corpses in physical graves and forget that they are SPIRITUAL TRUTHS:

John 9:4: I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Pro 9:13-18 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing. For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city, To call passengers who go right on their ways: Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him, Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant. But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

We look at "sheol" and "hades" (hell) and we are to see only the physical grave??? :Oops:

I don't think so (even though that is all I could see for awhile after coming to believe in Universal Salvation). I no longer believe that to say sheol/hades = the grave is the truth. It is merely the type/shadow/figure that we have been given in order to see THE TRUTH (that which is NOT SEEN, that is ETERNAL/AIONIOS).

It seem to me, upon further study, that "hell" is "in the earth", that this is 'the abode of the dead'... whereto Christ descended... and wherein he did lie "even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword".

Christ came "to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world". And HE IS "the resurrection and the life"!! AMEN!!??

It is here that men are cast into "a fiery furnace" (the second death) and only those who walk with Christ through the fire shall not be hurt (just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not hurt) of the second death.

The righteous and much more the wicked and sinner are recompensed IN THE EARTH are they not? (Pro 11:31)

Just my 2 or 3 cents.  :2c:

:grave:

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 09:10:21 PM
As I see it, Christ preached "to the dead" while he was here on earth.

And the gospel continues to be preached "to the dead" (to those who "sleep"... "in the night") here "in the earth".

Yes, ONLY CHRIST hath immortality!!  :thumbsup:

But it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality (by being "clothed" with our "heavenly" body... which we should know that if this earthly tabernacle were dissolved, that WE HAVE this house of God, not made with hands).  :wink3:

We do not desire to be UN-CLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON!! Right?  :nod:

Christ words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. They are to be "rightly divided" in order to be "spiritually discerned". Right? And we are to be looking upon that which is NOT SEEN (that is "eternal") rather than upon that which IS SEEN (that is temporal), right?

So, as I see it, the physical grave is merely a shadow/type of "the body of this death" of which Paul spoke, that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set in fire of hell/Gehenna".

When Christ said "TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise" He was speaking a SPIRITUAL truth, as it is TODAY when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts that we are given right to THE TREE OF LIFE (which is IN THE PARADISE OF GOD).

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection. As far as I can tell, that is just the shadow/type of a spiritual reality... just as Christ healing the physically lame, deaf, blind and dead were physical types of spiritual realities.  :Chinscratch:

We tend to look at verses that say "the dead know not anything" or "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" and we apply that to physically dead corpses in physical graves and forget that they are SPIRITUAL TRUTHS:

John 9:4: I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Pro 9:13-18 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing. For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city, To call passengers who go right on their ways: Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him, Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant. But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

We look at "sheol" and "hades" (hell) and we are to see only the physical grave??? :Oops:

I don't think so (even though that is all I could see for awhile after coming to believe in Universal Salvation). I no longer believe that to say sheol/hades = the grave is the truth. It is merely the type/shadow/figure that we have been given in order to see THE TRUTH (that which is NOT SEEN, that is ETERNAL/AIONIOS).

It seem to me, upon further study, that "hell" is "in the earth", that this is 'the abode of the dead'... whereto Christ descended... and wherein he did lie "even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword".

Christ came "to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world". And HE IS "the resurrection and the life"!! AMEN!!??

It is here that men are cast into "a fiery furnace" (the second death) and only those who walk with Christ through the fire shall not be hurt (just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not hurt) of the second death.

The righteous and much more the wicked and sinner are recompensed IN THE EARTH are they not? (Pro 11:31)

Just my 2 or 3 cents.  :2c:

:grave:

WOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose

 :cloud9: And a WONDERFUL 2 or 3 cents it was!   :thumbsup: :girlheart: Blessingss....

QuoteWOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose

Hey Rosie!! I told ya I would come and check in. It just took me a few days.  :gwink:

:ilu:

 Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on September 27, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 09:26:29 PM

QuoteWOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose

Hey Rosie!! I told ya I would come and check in. It just took me a few days.  :gwink:

:ilu:

ya been test driving yer new car....rofl..must have wore it out by now :icon_flower:

Quote from: Cardinal on September 27, 2009, 09:15:22 PM
:cloud9: And a WONDERFUL 2 or 3 cents it was!   :thumbsup: :girlheart: Blessingss....

Hi Cardinal! Thanks!

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 09:26:29 PM

QuoteWOW!!!!!!!!!! LOVE THIS   ! Thanks Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome , and so clear  , I am blown away !
  where you been all my life ?
  :HeartThrob:  rose

Hey Rosie!! I told ya I would come and check in. It just took me a few days.  :gwink:

:ilu:

like Card and Taffy aka  Bro G !
 glad to see you back and checkin' in sista C !
 good stuff I sure needed to hear today
  lots to consider  in this  post of yours ! wow
 dead to Christ or dead to the world  
we cannot eat of both trees at the same time !  :HeartThrob:  luv you girl ! rose

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Taffy on September 27, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Rofl


yeah, and me flowers need watering..where have yer been  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Taffy on September 27, 2009, 09:31:35 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Taffy on September 27, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Rofl


yeah, and me flowers need watering..where have yer been  :HeartThrob:

Ha too cute
   Bro G is a flower child of the 60's I reckin' hee hee  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: TonyThe baptism of our Lord actually took place at the lowest spot on the surface of the earth." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.55).

wow!

Quote from: rosered on September 27, 2009, 09:35:10 PM

Quote from: Taffy on September 27, 2009, 09:31:35 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 09:28:17 PM

Quote from: Taffy on September 27, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
Hi Kiddo :icon_flower:

Nice to see you posting once again  :HeartThrob:



:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

HA!  And here I thought you were only hanging out on the farmS these days.  :grin:

Rofl


yeah, and me flowers need watering..where have yer been  :HeartThrob:

Ha too cute
   Bro G is a flower child of the 60's I reckin' hee hee  :HeartThrob:

:icon_flower:
Hi Rosie
im so glad that Old Pc is holding out ,cos when it does go im\we sure going do what ever it takes so you can Get a New one...cos we cant have you going quiet on us. :HeartThrob:


Blessings Sis
G x

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 09:10:21 PM
The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection. As far as I can tell, that is just the shadow/type of a spiritual reality... just as Christ healing the physically lame, deaf, blind and dead were physical types of spiritual realities.  :Chinscratch:

We tend to look at verses that say "the dead know not anything" or "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" and we apply that to physically dead corpses in physical graves and forget that they are SPIRITUAL TRUTHS:

We look at "sheol" and "hades" (hell) and we are to see only the physical grave??? :Oops:

I don't think so (even though that is all I could see for awhile after coming to believe in Universal Salvation). I no longer believe that to say sheol/hades = the grave is the truth. It is merely the type/shadow/figure that we have been given in order to see THE TRUTH (that which is NOT SEEN, that is ETERNAL/AIONIOS).

It seem to me, upon further study, that "hell" is "in the earth", that this is 'the abode of the dead'... whereto Christ descended... and wherein he did lie "even among them that are set on fire, even the sons of men, whose teeth are spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword".

Christ came "to send fire on the earth" and "NOW is the judgment of this world". And HE IS "the resurrection and the life"!! AMEN!!??

It is here that men are cast into "a fiery furnace" (the second death) and only those who walk with Christ through the fire shall not be hurt (just as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not hurt) of the second death.

The righteous and much more the wicked and sinner are recompensed IN THE EARTH are they not? (Pro 11:31)

"Many have lost touch with true life, in the dress rehearsal of their own death."

:goodpost: peacemaker

Quote from: Chris on: Today at 02:10:21 PM

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection.

Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture? Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

A couple of verses later we read about Christ:

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah spoke of the "land of the shadow of death." What is that about? Job explains:

Job 10:20-22
Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

Job is talking about death here, I think. His mortality. The darkness of the grave. What else could it be?

So when Jesus fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy, as Matthew said he did, Jesus must have referred to literal death.

Matthew 4:12-17
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus brought the gospel, which is a great light that shines on those who are mortal, humans who are subject to literal death. That is primarily what the gospel is about! IMO. The remedy for death is....a resurrection!

Our hope is the inheritance we have in heaven:

1 Peter 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

...that we shall possess at the resurrection.

Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Doug

Quote from: Doug on September 27, 2009, 11:28:06 PM
Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture?

:cloud9: The fear of death that man is in bondage to all of his life, is the fear of DYING TO SELF. Which is why, no greater love has any man than this, that He lay down his life for his friends, and why perfect (ed) love casts out all fear. Blessings....

And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage - that is, the devil.

Quote from: Doug on September 27, 2009, 11:28:06 PM

Quote from: Chris on: Today at 02:10:21 PM

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection.

Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture?

Hello Doug,

Seems to me that verse equates being "a partaker of flesh and blood" with "death". If the devil has "the power of death" then what "death" are we speaking of here? That which results in physically dead and rotting corpses in physical graves?

QuoteIsaiah wrote:

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

A couple of verses later we read about Christ:

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah spoke of the "land of the shadow of death." What is that about? Job explains:

Job 10:20-22
Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

Job is talking about death here, I think. His mortality. The darkness of the grave. What else could it be?

How does that demonstrate the one is not a shadow/type of the other?

QuoteSo when Jesus fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy, as Matthew said he did, Jesus must have referred to literal death.

Matthew 4:12-17
12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus brought the gospel, which is a great light that shines on those who are mortal, humans who are subject to literal death. That is primarily what the gospel is about! IMO. The remedy for death is....a resurrection!

Of course it is. Now who are "the dead" that God is concerned with? Rotting corpses in physical graves? Or those who are "dead" in sin?

QuoteOur hope is the inheritance we have in heaven:

1 Peter 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

...that we shall possess at the resurrection.

And that proves that this resurrection is "physical" how? Are we not already seated with Christ in heavenly places, after a spiritual truth?  Having "eternal life", if we know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent?

QuotePhilippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Doug

AMEN!! Now did Paul say that he HAD NOT ATTAINED unto the resurrection of the dead OR did he say that he COUNTED IT NOT and tells us (or "as many as be perfect") to walk by the same rule?

Quote from: Chris Today at 06:52:37 PM

Quote from: Doug on Today at 04:28:06 PM

Quote from: Chris on: Today at 02:10:21 PM

The gospel has nothing to do with physical death or with physically dead corpses rotting in literal graves in need of a physical resurrection.

Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The gospel has to do with delivering those who are in bondage because of "fear of death." I suggest it is real death that people are afraid of, the kind that results in physically dead corpses in physical graves. Otherwise, how would you explain the above scripture?

Hello Doug,

Seems to me that verse equates being "a partaker of flesh and blood" with "death". If the devil has "the power of death" then what "death" are we speaking of here? That which results in physically dead and rotting corpses in physical graves?

Yes, IMO, the "death" that is referred to is the whole subject of death, and about man's mortality, the soul, and human destiny. The "vail spread over all nations" in the Isaiah quote below includes the delusions about the nature of death, and mistaken ideas about the afterlife, that hide the truth about God's plan for man's ultimate salvation.

Isaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Quote from: Chris Today at 06:52:37 PM

How does that demonstrate the one is not a shadow/type of the other?

I agree that physical death is a type of spiritual death; I did not deny it. But how does that imply "the gospel has nothing to do with physical death"? How does it negate the promise of a resurrection of the body?

Acts 23:6 says that Paul "cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." Why would he say he "hoped" for the resurrection of the dead, if he thought he had achieved it already?

Quote from: Chris Today at 06:52:37 PM

Quote from: Doug Today at 04:28:06 PM

Philippians 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

AMEN!! Now did Paul say that he HAD NOT ATTAINED unto the resurrection of the dead OR did he say that he COUNTED IT NOT and tells us (or "as many as be perfect") to walk by the same rule?

In the next verse Paul says he did not consider himself as one who had "already attained."

Philip. 3:12-16 (Weymouth)
12 I do not say that I have already won the race or have already reached perfection. But I am pressing on, striving to lay hold of the prize for which also Christ has laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not imagine that I have yet laid hold of it. But this one thing I do--forgetting everything which is past and stretching forward to what lies in front of me,
14 with my eyes fixed on the goal I push on to secure the prize of God's heavenward call in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let all of us who are mature believers cherish these thoughts; and if in any respect you think differently, that also God will make clear to you.
16 But whatever be the point that we have already reached, let us persevere in the same course.

Doug

Because we present as mortal souls in danger of a speedy disappearance [temporal], the fear of death does put us into bondage to satan in all sorts of ways.  And, this applies not just to our own death, but to the death of our loved ones, as well.

It is important to note that just speaking up in a group, even running contrary to the group, illicits a fear of death which is atavistic and well grounded--ancient man could not survive without the approval and acceptance of the group.  So, many just go along to get along because of a fear of death--even when the group is dead wrong, which it usually is.

A woman in an abusive marriage will keep her head down and acquiesce to all sorts of things she doesn't approve of or agree with because of a reasonable fear of death.  She may also be afraid to leave because of a fear of death, real or imagined, which if not real will likely play itself out in a lower standard of life for herself and her children.

Satan uses this fear to literally keep us in bondage to whatever is preventing us from being free.  The drug addict thinks he will die without his heroin, so he does everything in his power to procure the drug that is killing him.  The middle class housewife thinks she will die without the support of her church, so she bites her tongue when the pastor and others go against what she knows to be true in her heart.

So it goes, the blind leading the blind, vipers and wolves pushing the sheep this way and that.  Sheep are very timid animals, and, rightly so, because they are vulnerable, and prey to all sorts of carnivores.  A good sheep dog doesn't have to do much to control them--just the threat of death given with the look of a wolf's eye is enough to get them moving in the desired direction.  Sheep.

But, what if we weren't afraid of death?  How much differently would we conduct our lives?  How much bolder would we be?  How much more confrontational when we see truth being compromised?  How much more often would we share our wisdom with everyone, whether they wanted to hear it or not?

Make no mistake, Christ knew he was courting death with the Pharisees.  That didn't stop him or affect his behavior in any way.  They killed him because he was in their faces telling them the truth--and was gaining a great following by doing so--because it turns out that everyone except satan really does love the truth.  Jesus says, if you are going to follow me, you have to be prepared to die, literally, because the world as it is controlled by satan hates truthtellers.  Anything else is a compromise--a state of being living dead.  We can't do this unless we are fearless.  And, we can't be fearless unless we have no fear of death.


Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 03:01:44 AM

Yes, IMO, the "death" that is referred to is the whole subject of death, and about man's mortality, the soul, and human destiny. The "vail spread over all nations" in the Isaiah quote below includes the delusions about the nature of death, and mistaken ideas about the afterlife, that hide the truth about God's plan for man's ultimate salvation.

I'm not following. Where is the delusion?

QuoteIsaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?

QuoteI agree that physical death is a type of spiritual death; I did not deny it. But how does that imply "the gospel has nothing to do with physical death"? How does it negate the promise of a resurrection of the body?

Where do the scriptures speak of "the resurrection of the dead" as corpses popping out of the ground?

Are we not told that the body which is sewn is not that body which is reaped? That God GIVES it a body as it pleases him? And that it is not about being unclothed, but about being clothed upon with this building of God not made with hands?

Why does God need to resurrect our physical body after years/centuries of them rotting in dirt in order to "give" us a body? Why then are we told that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing?

QuoteActs 23:6 says that Paul "cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." Why would he say he "hoped" for the resurrection of the dead, if he thought he had achieved it already?

Because the resurrection is not past. It is was, is and is to come. Some still sleep (after a spiritual truth).

QuoteIn the next verse Paul says he did not consider himself as one who had "already attained."

Philip. 3:12-16 (Weymouth)
12 I do not say that I have already won the race or have already reached perfection. But I am pressing on, striving to lay hold of the prize for which also Christ has laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not imagine that I have yet laid hold of it. But this one thing I do--forgetting everything which is past and stretching forward to what lies in front of me,
14 with my eyes fixed on the goal I push on to secure the prize of God's heavenward call in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let all of us who are mature believers cherish these thoughts; and if in any respect you think differently, that also God will make clear to you.
16 But whatever be the point that we have already reached, let us persevere in the same course.

Doug

I read it very differently. Yes, Paul says that he is striving for the prize, as though he has not already attained unto the resurrection of the dead. But because, he says, he counts HIMSELF not to have attained unto it. But he goes on to say that "as many as BE PERFECT" should walk by the same rule.

Phi 3:8-16 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

We are to strive to know the power OF HIS resurrection. Amen? So why count it not, if we "know" it or have "attained" unto it?

As I see it, it is because we are to endure to the end. We are to take heed lest, thinking we stand, we fall. We are not to bear witness of ourselves and Paul was not one to bear witness of himself. It is God/Christ who must bear witness of those who are His. Is it not? Just as Christ bore witness of John the Baptist who, himself, said that he was NOT Elijah (even though Christ said he was).

Even Job knew better than to justify himself.

Job 9:20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

So while Paul did not bear witness of himself, he certainly did bear witness of others and instructed "as many as be perfect" to walk by "the same rule" that he did, pressing toward the mark, for the prize of the high calling of God, not as though you were already perfect or have already attained unto the resurrection of the dead, but counting it not and continuing to strive for it.

Not everyone who says "Lord Lord" does the Lord know, so how can we even think to bear witness of ourselves? How can we claim to have "attained" unto "the resurrection of the dead"? Our saying so or even believing so doesn't make it so. So we are to count it not and continue to strive for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ.

Again, that's just as I see it in relation to my own study of the scriptures and Jesus' words concerning "the dead" and "the resurrection of the dead". I do not believe that it is tied to physically dead/rotting corpses in literal graves.

Even when Martha said that she knew that her brother would be resurrected "at the last day", Jesus pointed out to her: "I AM the resurrection and the life". It is Christ who calls us out of the grave, releasing us from the bondage of death. The resurrection of Lazarus was a physical type of a spiritual reality. Just as the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ typifies the resurrection of "the body of Christ" (who we are).

I just don't see the day coming when corpses (that may or may not even still exist) are going to start popping out of dirt graves. That is not (as I see it) what "the resurrection of the dead" is all about.

Quote from: ChrisWhere is the delusion?

The delusion is we are going to die, our loved ones are going to die, and that will be the end of the matter--which is probably what most people believe, Christians or not.  They hope otherwise, but do they really believe it?

QuoteI just don't see the day coming when corpses (that may or may not even still exist) are going to start popping out of dirt graves. That is not (as I see it) what "the resurrection of the dead" is all about.

That might well be so, but we will still have a body and it will be a human-like body.  We see Jesus in a resurrected body that can be touched and feels normal.  We also see him in the transfiguration becoming a body of light.  There is no reason not to believe that this is what our new [wineskins] bodies will be like.  This is the resurrection that Paul was still waiting for, to be like Him in all ways.

So, I'm not sure what you are saying--that we are resurrected first in spirit, then in soul, then in body?  And, that once the resurrection 'process' starts, it will continue until it is complete?  Or that there is no life after physical death?  I just can't tell exactly what you are saying...

Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2009, 05:59:58 AM

Quote from: ChrisWhere is the delusion?

The delusion is we are going to die, our loved ones are going to die, and that will be the end of the matter--which is probably what most people believe, Christians or not.  They hope otherwise, but do they really believe it?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. How many people believe that they or their loved ones are never going to die? And since when do Christians not really believe in an afterlife? (if that is what you are saying?)

Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2009, 05:59:58 AM

Quote from: ChrisI just don't see the day coming when corpses (that may or may not even still exist) are going to start popping out of dirt graves. That is not (as I see it) what "the resurrection of the dead" is all about.

That might well be so, but we will still have a body and it will be a human-like body.  We see Jesus in a resurrected body that can be touched and feels normal.  We also see him in the transfiguration becoming a body of light.  There is no reason not to believe that this is what our new [wineskins] bodies will be like.  This is the resurrection that Paul was still waiting for, to be like Him in all ways.

So because Christ appeared in a body of flesh and bones in order to prove His resurrection this "proves" that we will forever live in a physical world with a physical body of flesh and bones?

I'm not saying we will or we won't, just that I do not believe that the scriptures even address what life (or "the world") will be like in eternity with the Father - just that we will be "forever with the Lord".

QuoteSo, I'm not sure what you are saying--that we are resurrected first in spirit, then in soul, then in body?  And, that once the resurrection 'process' starts, it will continue until it is complete?  Or that there is no life after physical death?  I just can't tell exactly what you are saying...

Well, I am certainly not saying that we cease to exist upon physical death. What Christian denomination teaches that there is no life after physical death?

What I am saying is that, according to scripture, it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, while the flesh profits nothing. Paul said that he turned such as one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that HIS SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord. He even tells us that if this earthly tabernacle (flesh and bones) were dissolved that we would see that WE HAVE an house of God, not made with hands (our heavenly/celestial body). We are told that we do not desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON; that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality.

I don't see that as talking about corpses, but living beings - mortals.

It's not about taking something off... it's about putting something on. And I don't believe that I need to die physically to be resurrected from the dead or to be clothed with my heavenly body. There is a dividing between the flesh and the spirit and the flesh profits nothing. And the reason that believers "never die" is not because they do not die physically, right? It is because they have already been resurrected from the dead (after a spiritual truth) and are children of the resurrection. They have already passed from death unto life (which has nothing to do with the fact that this body of flesh that we all live in will one day die).

Thanks, Chris--that made it much clearer what you are saying.

Death was not a personal drama but an ordeal for the whole community, however, we have lost something as a culture and have become less comfortable with the idea of death; fight or flight.

Perhaps, the fear of pain, of the unknown, of non-existence, and the psychology of Satan within Religions, including the fears of Eternal punishment have clouded the soul, as:

"Fear comes from the mind of men, not the Spirit."

peacemaker

To me it just stands to reason that we will meet the Lord in the air in flesh and bones bodies.

Why do I think this?

God is going to go to all the trouble to open up all the graves of dead saints, bring forth their bodies to meet up with the living saints who are changed from soulish to spiritual and together they meet the Lord in the air.

Having "spiritual bodies" does not mean we will be spirits without bodies. Just as we are now said to be soulish does not mean we are souls without bodies. It just means that now, our bodies are ruled by soulish sensations and in the future our bodies will be ruled by power of the spirit.

"Not first the spiritual but the soulish, then the spiritual." (1 Cor.15:46).

Christ could not preach to dead saints when He was dead. The only time they get to meet the Lord is when the Lord returns.

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

I'm not following. Where is the delusion?

Werner Jaeger wrote:

The Hebrew Bible does not know immortality ... [of the soul] at all, and the idea of resurrection in the New Testament is quite different. If nevertheless Plato's ideas of the soul and its destiny seem so familiar to us and have kept their direct appeal, that is because they have been adopted, with inevitable modifications, by the fathers of the church. If they dogmatized this part of Plato's philosophy of the soul, whereas in Plato himself everything remains in suspense, they have this in common with the Neoplatonists, who brought it all into the form of a theological system. The Christian fathers rejected the story of the transmigration of the soul, but they accepted the immortality of the individual soul, since they found it reconcilable with Paul's notion of the resurrection and with Jewish-Christian angelology, i.e., the existence of a world of immaterial beings. The most important fact in the history of Christian doctrine was that the father of Christian theology, Origen, was a Platonic philosopher at the school of Alexandria. He built into Christian doctrine the whole cosmic drama of the soul, which he took from Plato, and although later Christian fathers decided that he took over too much, that which they kept was still the essence of Plato's philosophy of the soul. It was for them as it was for Plato the significant expression of their basic spiritualism and immaterialism.

Werner Jaeger, The Greek Ideas of Immortality: The Ingersoll Lecture for 1958. The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 52, No. 3. (Jul., 1959), pp. 135-147. [See p. 146]

Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

QuoteIsaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?

Paul quotes the above verse from Isaiah in 1 Cor 15, and he indicates it can indeed be accomplished without dying, by a "change," that converts living mortal bodies of the saints to immortal ones, at the time when the saints who have previously died are also raised up, i.e. the "last trump."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

Where do the scriptures speak of "the resurrection of the dead" as corpses popping out of the ground?

Are we not told that the body which is sewn is not that body which is reaped? That God GIVES it a body as it pleases him? And that it is not about being unclothed, but about being clothed upon with this building of God not made with hands?

Why does God need to resurrect our physical body after years/centuries of them rotting in dirt in order to "give" us a body? Why then are we told that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing?

Look at the examples of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. They must be there for a reason! And look at the example of Christ himself. Job wrote:

Job 14
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

This does not support the idea of an immortal soul, commonly held in Christendom. Job expected to wait "till my change come" which is similar to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 15. Plato's doctrine that man has an "immortal soul" is one of the ideas, introduced after the time of the apostles, that turned the sun to darkness, the sun being symbolic of the gospel, which fulfilled the prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter in Acts 2:20. IMO.

Doug

QuotePlato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

Hi Doug,

Biblically speaking, there is no reason why the soul should not be immortal, except for sin, and the wages of sin is death.  But, Jesus has paid that debt for all.  Even if a soul is asleep, as Jesus said Lazarus was, it is still not dead in the sense of not existing.  It is still existing but in a state of sleep/death.

Paul says our mortal [souls] must put on immortality--must put it on--it is necessary.  Mortal there means liable to die.  It would seem at first glance that the soul is pulled into the grave with the body.  But, he who gave his soul for us, raised it back up, pulling us up with him.

Do you think that the soul ceases to exist at physical death?

Quote

Hi Doug,

Biblically speaking, there is no reason why the soul should not be immortal, except for sin, and the wages of sin is death.  But, Jesus has paid that debt for all.  Even if a soul is asleep, as Jesus said Lazarus was, it is still not dead in the sense of not existing.  It is still existing but in a state of sleep/death.

Paul says our mortal [souls] must put on immortality--must put it on--it is necessary.  Mortal there means liable to die.  It would seem at first glance that the soul is pulled into the grave with the body.  But, he who gave his soul for us, raised it back up, pulling us up with him.

Do you think that the soul ceases to exist at physical death?

The soul is what dies, as many scriptures indicate; I don't say it ceases to exist. Adam was made a "living soul," and he eventually died, as all do.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

David indicated the souls of the dead are in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 89:48
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

He describes the dead as "cut off from thy hand." They are cut off while in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 88:3-6
3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.

OTOH, Peter indicates our "soul" is what is to be "saved," as he spoke of "the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:8-10
8 [Jesus Christ:] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

The prophets indicate that whatever our inheritance is to be, it will be something wonderful.

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Paul thought so too.

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Hope this helps, Doug

Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2009, 06:23:00 PM

QuotePlato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

Hi Doug,

Biblically speaking, there is no reason why the soul should not be immortal, except for sin, and the wages of sin is death.  But, Jesus has paid that debt for all.  Even if a soul is asleep, as Jesus said Lazarus was, it is still not dead in the sense of not existing.  It is still existing but in a state of sleep/death.

Paul says our mortal [souls] must put on immortality--must put it on--it is necessary.  Mortal there means liable to die.  It would seem at first glance that the soul is pulled into the grave with the body.  But, he who gave his soul for us, raised it back up, pulling us up with him.

Do you think that the soul ceases to exist at physical death?

Molly, did Paul really say that about the soul? Or did you just make that up? You made it up, didn't you?  :laughing7:

The soul ceases to exist at physical death. Why? Because soul is just sensations. That is all it is. When you drain the blood from a human they loose all sensations to touch and smell etc. The bible says the soul is in the blood

Lev 17:11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.

When you die the blood quits moving and so do the senses. The soul is not an "entity" or "being" unless used figuratively such as all the souls which were sailing with Paul which shipwrecked.

Quote from: TonyMolly, did Paul really say that about the soul? Or did you just make that up? You made it up, didn't you? 

I didn't completely make it up lol.


It's the way I'm reading that scripture.


53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Referring to  the body--

[For this] "corruptible"

G5349
φθαρτός
phthartos
fthar-tos'
From G5351; decayed, that is, (by implication) perishable: - corruptible.

"must" [put on]

G1163
δεῖ
dei
die, deh-on'
Third person singular active present of G1210; also δεόν deon which is neuter active participle of the same; both used impersonally; it is (was, etc.) necessary (as binding): - behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should.


"incorruption"

G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.


Referring to the soul--

[and this] "mortal"
G2349
θνητός
thnētos
thnay-tos'
From G2348; liable to die: - mortal (-ity).


[must put on] (same as above)


"immortality"

G110
ἀθανασία
athanasia
ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.



By the way, another question (out of the blue)--if one really thought someone else was going to live forever--wouldn't he treat them with great respect?  If for no other reason than you would like to be on good terms with them when you run into them again in the next aeon or two?  We don't treat each other like the immortals that we are, do we?  I think most people do not believe in immortality.

 

 First off Great thread I am learning soooooooo much
 you guys are very clear in your concepts , that makes it easier for me to  "get it "   thanks for that !
  I just wanted to add in Rev 6 ,the souls that are under the altar/ Christ do cry out for vengance they were slain for the word of God and testimony of Jesus Christ Hebrews  11  , they died in faith ..
So making them not dead  nor unable to speak  
the Lord granted them white robes   and Chris  says further clothed upon  :thumbsup: and they recieved that "REST"  in Hebrews 4   the Lord grants  as His promises are sure .

in Rev 6 this is the victory over Death  Paul speaks of in Romans 7 and 8  to me  

 I am so not good at explining myself  :mblush:    I want to  say whats in my heart how   good God is and how the scriptures ALL FIT so perfectly
 but  I can get  you  Chris  so well  wow I am amazed  even Molly and Doug , and Tony , though I  know its the unseen that is   whats  the mystery of Jesus Christ and its the real deal , not what i can literally see with eyes  of human  exsistance .    but I can grasp this conversation   and see things  that were hidden  , but I can see , like the blind man lol I can see  Thank you Jesus !!!!



love ya all to death/ the end...  hee hee  :winkgrin:   :HeartThrob:
rose

Hi Rose, in Rev.6 the souls under the altar is a future event which has not happened yet.

Also it is highly figurative. When Cain slew Abel his voice of his blood cried from the ground. Well it didn't really since blood can't really talk.

Gen 4:10  And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Since the soul is in the blood, and since the souls cry under the altar, it is a figure. These Jewish believers are not really slain on the altar. But its as if they were a sacrifice to God.

Quote from: Tony N on September 28, 2009, 09:52:11 PM
Hi Rose, in Rev.6 the souls under the altar is a future event which has not happened yet.

Also it is highly figurative. When Cain slew Abel his voice of his blood cried from the ground. Well it didn't really since blood can't really talk.

Gen 4:10  And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Since the soul is in the blood, and since the souls cry under the altar, it is a figure. These Jewish believers are not really slain on the altar. But its as if they were a sacrifice to God.

  Hi Tony
  thanks for the reply bro!   
I agree is all figurative in speech ! symbolic if you will
  I do believe revelations  is the ''little book''    that was opened when Jesus  went to the Cross and  went to the Father , that was the power of God fulfiling all things in Christ Jesus it is Now even for me ..

if you read that many of the graves were opened  at the cross , to me it means the  holy ones appeared !   their minds / hearts were opened to recieve  Christ and the good news of the gospel ! even the centurion  spoke of the glory of God and   knew this was His Son ,  could only be the living Holy Spirit  speaking thatTRUTH ! WOW!

  I see it this way , I am not sure how many others agree with me
  but thats ok if you dont , ''Im down with that'' lol ...  :thumbsup:

    :HeartThrob:  rose
it is done here  finished !!
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.  :thumbsup:

this is prophecy  here ..
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

Its an on going thing for all , especially those who believe !!  :winkgrin:

rose, I wonder if the Pharisees had those who rose out of the graves murdered like they planned to do to Lazarus after He raised him from the dead?

Can you imagine seeing your once dead mother, father or relative walking around Jerusalem? I wonder if there were hundreds?

Quote from: Tony N on September 28, 2009, 10:51:00 PM
rose, I wonder if the Pharisees had those who rose out of the graves murdered like they planned to do to Lazarus after He raised him from the dead?

Can you imagine seeing your once dead mother, father or relative walking around Jerusalem? I wonder if there were hundreds?

I am ceratin there were so many you could not and cannot count  them  Tony
  I think  that was  the begining of the End ,  the End which is Christ
   the  main thing to me is this   the covenant with death is over in Christ , when He went to that Cross it  made the heavens open for all even now as we speak !  what a WORK GOD HAS DONE !!  :HeartThrob: :icon_flower: :cloud9: :gangel:     WOWZA!!! rose

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 05:14:03 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

I'm not following. Where is the delusion?

Werner Jaeger wrote:

The Hebrew Bible does not know immortality ... [of the soul] at all, and the idea of resurrection in the New Testament is quite different. If nevertheless Plato's ideas of the soul and its destiny seem so familiar to us and have kept their direct appeal, that is because they have been adopted, with inevitable modifications, by the fathers of the church. If they dogmatized this part of Plato's philosophy of the soul, whereas in Plato himself everything remains in suspense, they have this in common with the Neoplatonists, who brought it all into the form of a theological system. The Christian fathers rejected the story of the transmigration of the soul, but they accepted the immortality of the individual soul, since they found it reconcilable with Paul's notion of the resurrection and with Jewish-Christian angelology, i.e., the existence of a world of immaterial beings. The most important fact in the history of Christian doctrine was that the father of Christian theology, Origen, was a Platonic philosopher at the school of Alexandria. He built into Christian doctrine the whole cosmic drama of the soul, which he took from Plato, and although later Christian fathers decided that he took over too much, that which they kept was still the essence of Plato's philosophy of the soul. It was for them as it was for Plato the significant expression of their basic spiritualism and immaterialism.

Werner Jaeger, The Greek Ideas of Immortality: The Ingersoll Lecture for 1958. The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 52, No. 3. (Jul., 1959), pp. 135-147. [See p. 146]

Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a delusion, related to the doctrine of unending infernal torment, also a delusion. IMO.

OK, but I never said that the the soul is, in and of itself, immortal. So I am not sure what connection you are trying to make concerning this "delusion" and what I said?

First of all, I do not believe that the "soul" is something that we, as humans, possess. I believe that we are "living souls"; though "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (and if one died for all, then were all dead). One can be "dead" while he lives, no? and the penalty for sin is "death".  I see this as a spiritual truth, not a carnal/natural one.

So then, the scriptures tell us that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality. Again, I see this as a spiritual truth, not a carnal/natural one. We do not put on immortality by dying a physical death and taking part in a physical resurrection. We pass from death into life as believers, when we partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, who is our life and who ONLY has immortality.

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

QuoteIsaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?

Paul quotes the above verse from Isaiah in 1 Cor 15, and he indicates it can indeed be accomplished without dying, by a "change," that converts living mortal bodies of the saints to immortal ones, at the time when the saints who have previously died are also raised up, i.e. the "last trump."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I disagree with your assessment of this passage, in that I don't believe that it speaks of physically dead corpses being resurrected back to life at all. As I understand it, "the dead in Christ" (those who "sleep") are among those who remain, those who are physically alive, yet dead in sin. The dead in Christ are not physically dead saints, but "the tares" who are, according to both Christ and Paul, harvested first. 

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

Where do the scriptures speak of "the resurrection of the dead" as corpses popping out of the ground?

Are we not told that the body which is sewn is not that body which is reaped? That God GIVES it a body as it pleases him? And that it is not about being unclothed, but about being clothed upon with this building of God not made with hands?

Why does God need to resurrect our physical body after years/centuries of them rotting in dirt in order to "give" us a body? Why then are we told that it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing?

Look at the examples of people being raised from the dead in the Bible. They must be there for a reason! And look at the example of Christ himself.

I agree. Does not the natural reveal the spiritual? Isn't that which "is" seen given to us to reveal to us that which is "not" seen?

Quote from: Doug
Job wrote:

Job 14
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Yes, I am familiar with the passage; just as I am familiar with:

Psa 49:15  But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

I used to use these verses myself to support my own belief in soul sleep.... to "prove" that it is "from the grave" (sheol/hades) that the soul is redeemed "at the resurrection in the last day".

But when I compare that to:

Psa 30:3  O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

I can see that this is not talking about physical death at all; though physical death and the physical grave are the natural figures or types of the spiritual reality of "the body of this death" that we are prisoners of, that we need redemption from.

When I read Martha's words to Jesus regarding the resurrection of the dead, I hear in her response to His question my own (former) belief in soul sleep and in a future (only) resurrection that has to do with either the resurrection of the body (according to some) or the resurrection of the soul (to be given a new spiritual body, according to others). But I do not hear agreement to either of those positions in the words of Christ in His response to Martha, when he said:

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do we believe? Do we even understand? That Jesus Christ ~IS~ the resurrection and the life?

We are not immortal; we do not possess immortality. But Christ does and HE IS that LIFE that is hid in us = Christ in you, the hope of glory. And it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality. Again, it is not about being UN-clothed, but about being CLOTHED UPON.

If we have "put on" immorality, being clothed with Christ, then we HAVE eternal life and HAVE BEEN resurrected from the dead. We HAVE passed from death unto life.

And, as I see, we ALL have already been baptized into His death; though we do not all yet know the power of His resurrection/life. Though we have been raised with him, some are "fallen asleep", but those who "sleep" are being called to wake, to "rise from the dead":

Eph 5:14  ....Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Quote from: Doug
This does not support the idea of an immortal soul, commonly held in Christendom. Job expected to wait "till my change come" which is similar to Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 15. Plato's doctrine that man has an "immortal soul" is one of the ideas, introduced after the time of the apostles, that turned the sun to darkness, the sun being symbolic of the gospel, which fulfilled the prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter in Acts 2:20. IMO.

Doug

I respectfully disagree. While the idea of an "immortal soul" may be incorrect, as the soul does not possess immortality in and of itself. It is still THIS MORTAL (not corpses) that must "put on" immortality by being clothed with Christ, who only has immortality.

I no longer believe that the scriptures support the doctrine of soul sleep or the idea that it is "corpses" (or disembodied "souls", "sleeping" in sheol/hades) that are resurrected from the dead / to immortality.  I think that this idea comes from a misunderstanding of who "the dead" are and what/who "the resurrection of dead" is.

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 11:34:08 PM

Quote

So, I'm not sure what you are saying--that we are resurrected first in spirit, then in soul, then in body?  And, that once the resurrection 'process' starts, it will continue until it is complete?  Or that there is no life after physical death?  I just can't tell exactly what you are saying...

Well, I am certainly not saying that we cease to exist upon physical death. What Christian denomination teaches that there is no life after physical death?

What I am saying is that, according to scripture, it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, while the flesh profits nothing.

The context, when Jesus said this, is worth noting. Jesus said:

John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

This puzzled the disciples:

John 6:60
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Then Jesus said:

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The saying of Jesus was obviously a deep one, that requires interpretation, which is partly given in the last verse quoted. He was talking about spiritual things. "Eating his flesh" meant understanding his words. Some of them, we need to "chew" on a little.  :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 11:34:08 PM

Paul said that he turned such as one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that HIS SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord. He even tells us that if this earthly tabernacle (flesh and bones) were dissolved that we would see that WE HAVE an house of God, not made with hands (our heavenly/celestial body). We are told that we do not desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON; that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality.

I don't see that as talking about corpses, but living beings - mortals.

It's not about taking something off... it's about putting something on. And I don't believe that I need to die physically to be resurrected from the dead or to be clothed with my heavenly body. There is a dividing between the flesh and the spirit and the flesh profits nothing. And the reason that believers "never die" is not because they do not die physically, right? It is because they have already been resurrected from the dead (after a spiritual truth) and are children of the resurrection. They have already passed from death unto life (which has nothing to do with the fact that this body of flesh that we all live in will one day die).

If it were true that all the saints who lived before, had received their rewards already, some would have lived for many centuries, presumably in heaven, and in all that time, they would have learned much, having been given greatly superior immortal bodies and intellects, not having to take any time to sleep, etc., so it is hard to see why they would not have become much more learned than us, when we finally receive our rewards.

Being so much more qualified, would they not be much better suited for the best positions in the Kingdom, like ruling cities and nations, (or galaxies, or whatever) when Christ assigns those rewards? We, OTOH, would be fit for only the inferior positions.   :sigh:
   
But Jesus indicated it won't be like that at all!

Matthew 19:29-30
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Some of those who were first, which would include many of the early saints, will be last, he said, while some who are last, (perhaps some living in our age) will be first. That does not fit the scenario above, that says saints who lived and died centuries ago have been made immortal already, implying some have enjoyed immortality for many centuries.

The statement of Jesus, "many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first" does fit the view that all the saints and prophets wait in their graves till the resurrection, at the last trump, which is yet to occur. It is after the first 6 trumpets have been blown. It is at the 7th trumpet that God rewards his servants:

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the author of Hebrews also confirms that those who lived before must wait for their rewards, till we are ready to join them: "they without us should not be made perfect." [Hebrews 11:40]

Doug

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 07:37:52 PM
The soul is what dies, as many scriptures indicate; I don't say it ceases to exist. Adam was made a "living soul," and he eventually died, as all do.

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Hi Doug,

What do you see is the difference between the first Adam being "a living soul" and the last Adam being "a quickening spirit"?

Why do we insist on Christ having a resurrected body of flesh and bones, when He is called "a quickening SPIRIT"?

Why do we insist on a "bodily" resurrection when it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened while the flesh profits nothing? when we are told that that which is sown (our natural body) in not that which is reaped (or spiritual body)?

Why do we insist on the flesh being saved/resurrected in light of the above and the fact that Paul says that it is THE SPIRIT that is saved in the day of the Lord?


The penalty for sin for this "living soul" (the first Adam) is "death", right? You say that Adam eventually died, but what death did Adam suffer "in the day" that he sinned? What death was passed on to all men, as a result of sin? Physical death?

What about the bigger picture that is seen in a figure in Genesis? The fact that it is not until God breathes "the breath of life" into Adam/man that Adam/man is made "a living soul" ... and it is not until God "sends forth His spirit" that we are "created", that we pass from death unto "life" (are "made a LIVING soul"... as the soul that sins IS DEAD)?

Quote from: Doug

David indicated the souls of the dead are in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 89:48
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

How does that relate to "the body of this death" that Paul desired to be delivered from when he said:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

A 'body' that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set on fire of hell"?

Quote from: Doug

He describes the dead as "cut off from thy hand." They are cut off while in the "hand of the grave."

Psalm 88:3-6
3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.

Again, how can that be applies spiritually to "the body of this death"? to those who are "dead" (in sin) while they live?

Quote from: Doug
OTOH, Peter indicates our "soul" is what is to be "saved," as he spoke of "the salvation of your souls."

1 Peter 1:8-10
8 [Jesus Christ:] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

AMEN!! And is not CHRIST the author and the finisher (THE END) of our faith? Even "the salvation of our souls" (we being "dead" in sin)?

It is CHRIST IN YOU that is the hope of glory, right? And that life IS HID within us. And it is not until HE ((who is our life)) APPEARS, that WE appear ((with him)) IN GLORY, right?

Col 3:2-4 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

We pass from death unto life IN THIS WORLD. As he is so are we IN THIS WORLD. Right?

But even those who "sleep" who are "dead" are IN CHRIST, as God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, creating ONE NEW MAN (Eph 2:15), having baptized us, by one spirit, into one body (whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free):

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Quote from: Doug

The prophets indicate that whatever our inheritance is to be, it will be something wonderful.

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Paul thought so too.

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Hope this helps, Doug

AMEN!!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Doug on September 29, 2009, 03:06:48 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 11:34:08 PM

Quote

So, I'm not sure what you are saying--that we are resurrected first in spirit, then in soul, then in body?  And, that once the resurrection 'process' starts, it will continue until it is complete?  Or that there is no life after physical death?  I just can't tell exactly what you are saying...

Well, I am certainly not saying that we cease to exist upon physical death. What Christian denomination teaches that there is no life after physical death?

What I am saying is that, according to scripture, it is THE SPIRIT that is quickened, while the flesh profits nothing.

The context, when Jesus said this, is worth noting. Jesus said:

John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

This puzzled the disciples:

John 6:60
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Then Jesus said:

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The saying of Jesus was obviously a deep one, that requires interpretation, which is partly given in the last verse quoted. He was talking about spiritual things. "Eating his flesh" meant understanding his words. Some of them, we need to "chew" on a little.  :Sparkletooth:

So what does it mean to you that it is THE SPIRIT that quickeneth while the flesh profits nothing?

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009, 11:34:08 PM

Paul said that he turned such as one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that HIS SPIRIT might be saved in the day of the Lord. He even tells us that if this earthly tabernacle (flesh and bones) were dissolved that we would see that WE HAVE an house of God, not made with hands (our heavenly/celestial body). We are told that we do not desire to be UN-clothed, but CLOTHED UPON; that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality.

I don't see that as talking about corpses, but living beings - mortals.

It's not about taking something off... it's about putting something on. And I don't believe that I need to die physically to be resurrected from the dead or to be clothed with my heavenly body. There is a dividing between the flesh and the spirit and the flesh profits nothing. And the reason that believers "never die" is not because they do not die physically, right? It is because they have already been resurrected from the dead (after a spiritual truth) and are children of the resurrection. They have already passed from death unto life (which has nothing to do with the fact that this body of flesh that we all live in will one day die).

If it were true that all the saints who lived before, had received their rewards already, some would have lived for many centuries, presumably in heaven, and in all that time, they would have learned much, having been given greatly superior immortal bodies and intellects, not having to take any time to sleep, etc., so it is hard to see why they would not have become much more learned than us, when we finally receive our rewards.

Being so much more qualified, would they not be much better suited for the best positions in the Kingdom, like ruling cities and nations, (or galaxies, or whatever) when Christ assigns those rewards? We, OTOH, would be fit for only the inferior positions.   :sigh:

What "positions" are you talking about? What "cities and nations" are you desiring to rule over? Are you looking for a physical kingdom?

Quote from: Doug
   
But Jesus indicated it won't be like that at all!

Matthew 19:29-30
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Are you waiting to die physically to enter into the kingdom of God and to inherit eternal life?

Quote from: Doug
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.[/size][/color]

Some of those who were first, which would include many of the early saints, will be last, he said, while some who are last, (perhaps some living in our age) will be first. That does not fit the scenario above, that says saints who lived and died centuries ago have been made immortal already, implying some have enjoyed immortality for many centuries.

The statement of Jesus, "many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first" does fit the view that all the saints and prophets wait in their graves till the resurrection, at the last trump, which is yet to occur. It is after the first 6 trumpets have been blown. It is at the 7th trumpet that God rewards his servants:

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

And the author of Hebrews also confirms that those who lived before must wait for their rewards, till we are ready to join them: "they without us should not be made perfect." [Hebrews 11:40]

Doug

As I see it, those who were "first" were the Jews - God's chosen people, according to the flesh, but who (by in large) did not enter into "the promised land" (the kingdom of God) because of unbelief.

Those who were "last" are the Gentiles, who received mercy because of the unbelief of those who were "first" chosen.... but who would ultimately be "the first" (by in large) to accept and put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour... being "first" to enter in to the kingdom of God and eternal life.

Spiritual truths, as I see it, that are not dependent upon a time-line, per say.

So I agree, they weren't /aren't made perfect without us, as there is only one body.  :grouppray:

Quote from: ChrisWe pass from death unto life IN THIS WORLD. As he is so are we IN THIS WORLD. Right?

If we pass from death to life in this life [which I also believe, btw] what happens with nonbelievers who die in their sin, and are not clothed in Christ?

QuoteBut even those who "sleep" who are "dead" are IN CHRIST, as God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, creating ONE NEW MAN (Eph 2:15), having baptized us, by one spirit, into one body (whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free):

Is this to be understood as Christ on the cross contained both God and all of sinful humanity within his body?  Or is that too literal?


12that ye were at that time without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13but now in Christ Jesus *ye* who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of the Christ.

14For *he* is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of enclosure,

15having annulled the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in ordinances, that he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace;

16and might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross, having by it slain the enmity;

17and, coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who [were] afar off, and [the glad tidings of] peace to those [who were] nigh.

--Eph 2


Is it possible to reject this gift of reconciliation?  Or is all humanity under it by default? [as I am a default citizen of this country because I was born here.]

PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS (1)

19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we.
20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.

Eph 2:16 is the clearest argument for UR I've ever seen.  That is, if it is saying what I think it is saying.  Interesting, I've never noticed it before.  Now I have to figure out how Christ could contain all of sinful humanity within his body.

 :cloud9: Molly, when I read your thought here, the thought I had right behind it, was that it was thru their blood. The life of the soul is in the blood also, so like a spiritual "blood guiltiness" pattern of the OT? Just thinking out loud here.......Blessings...

Quote from: Chris on: September 28, 2009, 07:40:38 PM

So then, the scriptures tell us that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality. Again, I see this as a spiritual truth, not a carnal/natural one. We do not put on immortality by dying a physical death and taking part in a physical resurrection. We pass from death into life as believers, when we partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, who is our life and who ONLY has immortality.

Passing from "death" to "life" when we believe in Christ is like conception, the resurrection from the dead is like a birth. That is why the church, represented by the woman in heaven clothed with the sun, is called our "mother." The saints, her yet unborn children, are called her "seed," Rev. 12:17.

Rev. 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The resurrection of the saints is referred to here:

Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Quote from: Chris on: September 28, 2009, 07:40:38 PM

Quote from:  Doug

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

QuoteIsaiah 25:7-8
And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?

Paul quotes the above verse from Isaiah in 1 Cor 15, and he indicates it can indeed be accomplished without dying, by a "change," that converts living mortal bodies of the saints to immortal ones, at the time when the saints who have previously died are also raised up, i.e. the "last trump."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I disagree with your assessment of this passage, in that I don't believe that it speaks of physically dead corpses being resurrected back to life at all. As I understand it, "the dead in Christ" (those who "sleep") are among those who remain, those who are physically alive, yet dead in sin. The dead in Christ are not physically dead saints, but "the tares" who are, according to both Christ and Paul, harvested first.

In the above quoted passage, [i.e., 1 Corinthians 15:51-53] Paul is telling us about the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. This is the same trumpet we read of in Rev. 11, the seventh trumpet. Consider the context:

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Adam we are all mortal. We eventually die. Death came because of the sin of Adam, according to the scripture. This is the problem that Christ has fixed. He rose from the dead, and is the first human to obtain immortality. That is why he is called "the firstfruits of them that slept."

In this chapter, Paul explains more about the resurrection from the dead, that Christians seek to obtain. In verse 35:

1 Corinthians 15:35-37
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

Paul uses sowing wheat in the ground as an analogy for burial of dead people. Both our dead bodies, and wheat, are buried in the ground; he then shows there are various kinds of creatures, human, animal, fish, birds, and various types of stars, and if he were writing today, he might also have mentioned planets, and asteroids. He mentions the sun and moon; we know the moon orbits the earth, and both the earth and the moon together, and all the planets orbit the sun. Paul compares their light intensity; some bodies shine more brightly than others; some, like the moon, only reflect light from elsewhere. These are mentioned to illustrate the variety of bodies that will be raised up in the resurrection. We won't all be the same.

1 Corinthians 15:42-46
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Everything here refers to the contrast between the human state, and the future glorified state, that the saints will have in the resurrection. Our present state is the natural one, subject to corruption, disease, growing old, weakness, etc. The future glorified state is one of incorruption, power, and a spiritual body like that of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:47-50
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul contrasts our present human, "earthy" condition with the future state, which he calls "heavenly." It is an incorruptible body, like that of Jesus. Nothing in the verses quoted refers to death metaphorically, as a person who does not know or believe the gospel. It is all describing the great contrast between the mortal, human condition, and the glorious type of life which those in the resurrection will receive.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The same is true of these verses. "Sleep" refers to death. Jesus spoke of both the 12 year old girl who he raised to life, and Lazarus who he brought back from the grave as "asleep" Paul describes the saints who remain alive when Christ comes being suddenly changed to an immortal, glorious state, and those who have previously died in Christ being raised up, in a similar condition.

1 Corinthians 15:54-58
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

These things are for our encouragement. Our eternal state is to be glorious. No one but Jesus has yet obtained that state. When the resurrection occurs, the whole world will be judged by the saints, Paul said.   

1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Doug

Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2009, 07:17:34 AM
:cloud9: Molly, when I read your thought here, the thought I had right behind it, was that it was thru their blood. The life of the soul is in the blood also, so like a spiritual "blood guiltiness" pattern of the OT? Just thinking out loud here.......Blessings...

The bible does not say "the life of the soul is in the blood." Rather, it just says "the soul is in the blood."

Quote from: Molly on September 29, 2009, 06:23:36 AM

Quote from: ChrisWe pass from death unto life IN THIS WORLD. As he is so are we IN THIS WORLD. Right?

If we pass from death to life in this life [which I also believe, btw] what happens with nonbelievers who die in their sin, and are not clothed in Christ?

Christ is the light that ligheth every man that cometh into the world, is he not? As i see it, we have all been baptized into the death of Jesus Christ. It just that we have not all (yet) known the power of His resurrection. If we do not have eternal life (which is to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent) in this life then when we die we will, as we will see Him as he is, seeing him "face to face".

Even Paul says that those who sleep (the dead in Christ) are caught up to be the Lord, even before those those who "alive" and remain... and we shall be caught up with them, and we shall forever be with the Lord. If this is what happens to "the dead" who remain unto the coming of the Lord then why would it be any different for those who die physically before that time comes when all flesh will be destroyed and all things have been fully recinciled to God such that the kingdom is turned over to the Father, who will be all in all?

Seems to me that the new creature has already been created in Christ, who is Lord both of the living and the dead (both being "in Christ" and of "the body of Christ"). We are not longer "dead" (for death has been overcome/conquered by Christ, but many still "sleep" (though, spiritually speaking, the two are pretty synonymous).

There is an outward man (first/natural) and an inward man (second/spirit) and "the second man" IS "the Lord from heaven". Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory, right?

Seems to me that it is that inward man, that spiritual man, that second man, that new man, that hidden man of the heart, that is renewed day by day - while that first adam, that outward/natural man perishes.

Quote from: Molly on September 29, 2009, 06:23:36 AM

Quote from: ChrisBut even those who "sleep" who are "dead" are IN CHRIST, as God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, creating ONE NEW MAN (Eph 2:15), having baptized us, by one spirit, into one body (whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free):

Is this to be understood as Christ on the cross contained both God and all of sinful humanity within his body?  Or is that too literal?


12that ye were at that time without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13but now in Christ Jesus *ye* who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of the Christ.

14For *he* is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of enclosure,

15having annulled the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in ordinances, that he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace;

16and might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross, having by it slain the enmity;

17and, coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who [were] afar off, and [the glad tidings of] peace to those [who were] nigh.

--Eph 2


Is it possible to reject this gift of reconciliation?  Or is all humanity under it by default? [as I am a default citizen of this country because I was born here.]

Many Christians speak of "accepting" (or thus "rejecting") God's gift of salvation, as if it is up to us to save ourselves, as if Christ only "offers" it but does not actually "do" it or "accomplish" it. But God's gifts are without repentance, irrevocable. We do not have to "accept" salvation in order to be saved; therefore we cannot "reject" it and not be saved.  It is not up to us, but to Christ, who said that if he be lifted up He would draw all men unto himself.

The only "rejection" that takes place, if you want to call it that, is that which comes through the workings of "the flesh", the working of satan, if you will, which will ultimately be destroyed. Correct?

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 03:01:19 PM


....why would it be any different for those who die physically before that time comes when all flesh will be destroyed and all things have been fully recinciled to God such that the kingdom is turned over to the Father, who will be all in all?

so even with your "view; you still look to a time when all "flesh" will be destroyed??  do you mean literal flesh here??

why would there need to be an end all, when it is happening indiviudually, either "while alive-eternal life", or at physical death when every one will see "him as he is"??

Quote from: Chris on September 28, 2009, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 08:06:48 PM

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The saying of Jesus was obviously a deep one, that requires interpretation, which is partly given in the last verse quoted. He was talking about spiritual things. "Eating his flesh" meant understanding his words. Some of them, we need to "chew" on a little. :Sparkletooth:

So what does it mean to you that it is THE SPIRIT that quickeneth while the flesh profits nothing?

I already suggested an explanation. It was to explain this previous statement of Jesus that gave the disciples so much trouble:

John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Here is what John Wesley said:

Verse 63. It is the Spirit - The spiritual meaning of these words, by which God giveth life. The flesh - The bare, carnal, literal meaning, profiteth nothing. The words which I have spoken, they are spirit - Are to be taken in a spiritual sense and, when they are so understood, they are life - That is, a means of spiritual life to the hearers.

J. B. Coffman commented:

This was Jesus' way of saying, "Look, with regard to what I said about eating my flesh and drinking my blood, you must not take that literally, but spiritually. `The flesh profiteth nothing ...' Of course, eating my literal flesh would be to no profit; but my words are spirit and are life. It is my teaching which you must assimilate."

These both give the sense, I think. It has nothing to do with explaining what the eternal state is to be, or the resurrection; it is telling us how to understand the words of Jesus, and also the words of the prophets, which are similar in that they too are to be spiritually understood. They are given to us as parables, figures, visions, "similitudes," etc.

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Quote from: Chris on September 28, 2009, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 08:06:48 PM

If it were true that all the saints who lived before, had received their rewards already, some would have lived for many centuries, presumably in heaven, and in all that time, they would have learned much, having been given greatly superior immortal bodies and intellects, not having to take any time to sleep, etc., so it is hard to see why they would not have become much more learned than us, when we finally receive our rewards.

Being so much more qualified, would they not be much better suited for the best positions in the Kingdom, like ruling cities and nations, (or galaxies, or whatever) when Christ assigns those rewards? We, OTOH, would be fit for only the inferior positions.  :sigh:

What "positions" are you talking about? What "cities and nations" are you desiring to rule over? Are you looking for a physical kingdom?

It is from the parable of the talents:

Matthew 25:14-29
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Whether or not they are literal cities, which are given to those servants who are profitable, and who do the will of God, the point I was making is that the scripture shows the saints are to be raised up together, at the coming of Christ, and the last trump. Until then, the saints who have died wait in their graves, like Job. 

Job 14:14
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The parable indicates that Jesus "reaps where he sowed not, and gathers where he has not strawed." It may indicate that even with incorrect or literal interpretations, people can still believe the gospel, and have faith in Christ, with limited understanding. There is a great range in the lifestyle of saints in the OT, for example. And in the history of the church.

Doug

Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 02:38:42 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2009, 07:17:34 AM
:cloud9: Molly, when I read your thought here, the thought I had right behind it, was that it was thru their blood. The life of the soul is in the blood also, so like a spiritual "blood guiltiness" pattern of the OT? Just thinking out loud here.......Blessings...

The bible does not say "the life of the soul is in the blood." Rather, it just says "the soul is in the blood."

:cloud9: Tony, you know I respect your opinion a great deal, and glean a lot from what you write, but we are not always on the same page as far as looking at/for the natural things that are bearing witness for the spiritual.

So, that said, I guess that would depend on which blood you're talking about. He breathed (which is Spirit and HIS blood) into Adam and he became a living soul, or a soul that had life. So if the soul is in the blood (natural blood) and the life (His blood which is Spirit) is in the soul........unless of course you think natural blood is what was taken into heaven, seeing how flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. Blessings....

Quote from: Doug on September 29, 2009, 02:36:06 PM

Quote from: Chris on: September 28, 2009, 07:40:38 PM

So then, the scriptures tell us that it is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality. Again, I see this as a spiritual truth, not a carnal/natural one. We do not put on immortality by dying a physical death and taking part in a physical resurrection. We pass from death into life as believers, when we partake of the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, who is our life and who ONLY has immortality.

Passing from "death" to "life" when we believe in Christ is like conception, the resurrection from the dead is like a birth. That is why the church, represented by the woman in heaven clothed with the sun, is called our "mother." The saints, her yet unborn children, are called her "seed," Rev. 12:17.

Rev. 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The resurrection of the saints is referred to here:

Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Doug, the "church" (Eve) is made up of both men and women, right? And "she" (according to Paul) "shall be saved in childbearing", right?

It is "we" who must be "delivered of the child", then, isn't it? Just as Paul was?

The book of Revelation is about "the revelation of Jesus Christ", right? Do you see that as only a future/physical event that has yet to take place? That has nothing to do with Christ coming in the flesh to die on the cross and coming "the second time" unto them that look for Him (Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory)? Do you see it being fulfilled physically, rather than spiritually?

Quote from: Chris on: September 28, 2009, 07:40:38 PM

Quote from:  Doug

Quote from: Chris on September 27, 2009 10:38:01 PM

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: ChrisIsaiah 25:7-8

And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

And that cannot be accomplished without physical death? Or without 'soul sleep'?

Paul quotes the above verse from Isaiah in 1 Cor 15, and he indicates it can indeed be accomplished without dying, by a "change," that converts living mortal bodies of the saints to immortal ones, at the time when the saints who have previously died are also raised up, i.e. the "last trump."

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I disagree with your assessment of this passage, in that I don't believe that it speaks of physically dead corpses being resurrected back to life at all. As I understand it, "the dead in Christ" (those who "sleep") are among those who remain, those who are physically alive, yet dead in sin. The dead in Christ are not physically dead saints, but "the tares" who are, according to both Christ and Paul, harvested first.

In the above quoted passage, [i.e., 1 Corinthians 15:51-53] Paul is telling us about the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. This is the same trumpet we read of in Rev. 11, the seventh trumpet. Consider the context:

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

I'm not disagreeing. Christ is the first-fruits of them that slept. He "is" THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE. Right? And that life is hid with Christ in God, until such time as Christ (in us, who "is" our life) is made manifest. Right?

You seem to see this in a linear fashion. That we live a natural life in a body of flesh and then we die a physical death (as a result of sin?) and then we are resurrected from a physical death with a (more or less) physical body of flesh that is "glorified" by being given immortality? Would that be an accurate summary?

I don't see it that way. I don't see "physical death" being the result of sin. If this is the case, then Adam had immortality first and apart from Christ and only lost it as a result of sin.

Were life and immortality ever supposed to come through the first Adam (man)?

I see the "death" that is "the penalty for sin" relative to a spiritual truth. And because all have sinned "all are dead" (not "all are going to die" - a physical death). It is this "death" (that we suffer while we live - physically) that Christ came to redeem us from. Christ who was, and is and is to come, who comes "the second time" unto them that look for him – without sin unto salvation (even the salvation of our souls).

Again, it is Christ IN YOU that is the hope of glory. Right?

Quote from:  Doug
In Adam we are all mortal. We eventually die. Death came because of the sin of Adam, according to the scripture. This is the problem that Christ has fixed. He rose from the dead, and is the first human to obtain immortality. That is why he is called "the firstfruits of them that slept."

But he is not the first human to obtain immortality if the first Adam was immortal to begin with and "became" mortal because of sin, if that is what you are saying? Are you saying that physical death is a result of sin?

As I see it, Adam/man has always been mortal. It is not physical death that resulted from sin. Adam DIED (after a spiritual truth) "in the day" that he sinned. And through sin (as all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) all men have "died" (are "dead", after a spiritual truth).  It has nothing to do with our eventual physical death, as our physical death has nothing to do with sin; it is the result of our mortality.

Yet, that which is physical (that can be seen - physical death) is meant to reveal to us that which is spiritual (that cannot be seen – death, according to a spiritual truth). We know what it means to be "dead" after a spiritual truth because we can see what it means to be "dead" after a carnal truth. But we are to look on those things that are not seen, rather than upon those things that are seen – if we are to understand the spiritual truths that they reveal. Correct?

Quote from:  Doug
In this chapter, Paul explains more about the resurrection from the dead, that Christians seek to obtain. In verse 35:

1 Corinthians 15:35-37
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

Paul uses sowing wheat in the ground as an analogy for burial of dead people. Both our dead bodies, and wheat, are buried in the ground; he then shows there are various kinds of creatures, human, animal, fish, birds, and various types of stars, and if he were writing today, he might also have mentioned planets, and asteroids. He mentions the sun and moon; we know the moon orbits the earth, and both the earth and the moon together, and all the planets orbit the sun. Paul compares their light intensity; some bodies shine more brightly than others; some, like the moon, only reflect light from elsewhere. These are mentioned to illustrate the variety of bodies that will be raised up in the resurrection. We won't all be the same.

Paul is describing the difference between the natural and the spiritual, yes. I agree. But who are "the stars" (these "celestial" bodies), Doug? Who are "the stars" that Christ holds in His right hand in the book of Revelation? Are they not "the angels of the churches"? And wasn't Paul received "as an angel of God"? Isn't it "an angel" that is seen "flying in the midst of heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach"? Isn't it "the angels" that Christ said he would send to reap? Who did Christ send "to reap"?

Why do you believe that Paul answers this question that he says some will ask saying: "how are the dead raised up and with what body do they come" with "thou fool"? It is that hard to understand "the resurrection of the dead" according to a physical/natural truth?  Or is it because this is how they were trying to understand it and that is not how it is to be understood?

Why do you supposes Christ told the Pharisees that they erred, not understanding the power of God when they asked him about the resurrection according to a carnal understanding? Why did he respond by telling them that "in the resurrection of dead they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are as the angels of God in heaven" (keeping in mind that "the angels of the churches" are "the stars" that He holds in His right hand and it is "the hosts of heaven" that praise, worship and glorify Him)?

Quote from:  Doug
1 Corinthians 15:42-46
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


Everything here refers to the contrast between the human state, and the future glorified state, that the saints will have in the resurrection. Our present state is the natural one, subject to corruption, disease, growing old, weakness, etc. The future glorified state is one of incorruption, power, and a spiritual body like that of Jesus.

Well, as I see it, it is a dividing between the flesh and the spirit, between the outward man and the inward man, between that which perishes and that which is renewed day by day, between the first man (the first Adam) and the second man (the last Adam) that is the Lord from heaven (whose body we are – joined together by one spirit).

Quote from:  Doug
1 Corinthians 15:47-50
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul contrasts our present human, "earthy" condition with the future state, which he calls "heavenly." It is an incorruptible body, like that of Jesus. Nothing in the verses quoted refers to death metaphorically, as a person who does not know or believe the gospel. It is all describing the great contrast between the mortal, human condition, and the glorious type of life which those in the resurrection will receive.

The second man is the last Adam. So if the last Adam was made a quickening spirit why are you insisting on a glorified natural body?

Everything that Paul says here is about the natural vs the spiritual; the flesh vs the spirit; that which is sewn vs that which is reaped and "thou sowest NOT that body that shall be", right?

Why do you believe Paul likens that "body" that will be to "wheat" or to "some other grain"?

According to scripture, that which is born of the flesh IS FLESH and that which is born of the spirit IS SPIRIT. So why do we insist of mixing the two in order to make "the spiritual" more tangible by making it almost "natural"? But by calling it "glorified" in order to maintain its "spirituality"?

When Paul speaks of "the end" he says that those who sleep (the "dead" in Christ) shall be caught up into the air and then those who are "alive" and remain will be caught up together with them in the air, and then they ALL shall be "forever be with Lord". Where? How? In what "state"? In what "world"? Do the scriptures even say? Are we even told what eternity with the Father will be like? What our lives will be like? What we will be doing? What our existence will consist of? I don't believe that we are.

Quote from:  Doug
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The same is true of these verses. "Sleep" refers to death. Jesus spoke of both the 12 year old girl who he raised to life, and Lazarus who he brought back from the grave as "asleep" Paul describes the saints who remain alive when Christ comes being suddenly changed to an immortal, glorious state, and those who have previously died in Christ being raised up, in a similar condition.

Not as I understand it. As I understand it, Paul is not talking about those who "previously died". He is talking about those who "are dead" (who are "asleep", after a spiritual truth). They, too, are among those who "remain" who are caught up to be with the Lord.

Who is it that Christ said would be harvested first? Was it not "the tares"? So then shouldn't "the tares" spoken of by Christ correlate in some way to "the dead" spoken of by Paul, who are gathered first?

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed!! We have been changed, Doug. We are a new creation, a new creature, one new man created IN CHRIST (both "the living" and 'the dead").... But SOME SLEEP! It is a spiritual truth, as far as I can tell; not one that speaks to rotting flesh in physical graves. 

Paul speaks about many things in the future tense. He also speaks of many of those same things in the present tense. As I see it, it is not because all of these things are "yet future" and it's not because they are "past" but it's because Christ was, and is and is to come and he comes "the second time" unto them that look for him. And he comes "as a thief in the night" (because he comes "to those who sleep" and those who sleep sleep "in the night")

Quote from:  Doug
1 Corinthians 15:54-58
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

These things are for our encouragement. Our eternal state is to be glorious. No one but Jesus has yet obtained that state. When the resurrection occurs, the whole world will be judged by the saints, Paul said.   

1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Doug

John 12:31  NOW is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out.

2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, NOW [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)

Compare that to:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The book of Revelation is not (to me) a book of future events. These things have been, are now and will continue to be fulfilled in the lives of the saints until the consummation of all things.

Christ came ONCE (in the end of the world) TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and to take away sin (and death) by the sacrifice of himself AND AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT.... NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the day of salvation.

And (TODAY) when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts we are given right to THE TREE OF LIFE which is in THE PARADISE OF GOD. Amen?

For me, I am seeing more and more that to rightly divide the word of truth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual is a matter of being able to divide between the natural (that which is seen) and the spiritual (that which is not), which seems to come down to a division between the flesh and the spirit.

Quote from: Zeek on September 29, 2009, 03:49:02 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 03:01:19 PM


....why would it be any different for those who die physically before that time comes when all flesh will be destroyed and all things have been fully recinciled to God such that the kingdom is turned over to the Father, who will be all in all?

so even with your "view; you still look to a time when all "flesh" will be destroyed??  do you mean literal flesh here??

why would there need to be an end all, when it is happening indiviudually, either "while alive-eternal life", or at physical death when every one will see "him as he is"??

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it? What "end all" are you referring to?

All "flesh" will be destroyed. Do I mean that only "literally"? Is that the quesiton? No, I don't. In the sense that "the flesh" is man's carnal nature (not his epidermis), I see this happening individually. So, then, does the "literal" destruction of "the flesh" happen individually, too, right? It rots and returns to dust after we physically die, right?

But what of those who "remain" when the time comes for this world to come to and and for all men to enter into the kingdom of God, into eternity with the Father? That is the only "end all" that I can see, if you want to call it that. Is that what you are asking me?

Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2009, 08:31:16 PM

Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 02:38:42 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2009, 07:17:34 AM
:cloud9: Molly, when I read your thought here, the thought I had right behind it, was that it was thru their blood. The life of the soul is in the blood also, so like a spiritual "blood guiltiness" pattern of the OT? Just thinking out loud here.......Blessings...

The bible does not say "the life of the soul is in the blood." Rather, it just says "the soul is in the blood."

:cloud9: Tony, you know I respect your opinion a great deal, and glean a lot from what you write, but we are not always on the same page as far as looking at/for the natural things that are bearing witness for the spiritual.

So, that said, I guess that would depend on which blood you're talking about. He breathed (which is Spirit and HIS blood) into Adam and he became a living soul, or a soul that had life. So if the soul is in the blood (natural blood) and the life (His blood which is Spirit) is in the soul........unless of course you think natural blood is what was taken into heaven, seeing how flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. Blessings....

Hi Cardinal,
Where in the bible does it state that He breathed blood into Adam?

Where in the bible does it state that "His blood which is Spirit"?

Christ did not ascend into heaven with blood but just as flesh and bones and spirit. He shed His blood, remember?

QuoteWhat "end all" are you referring to?

There is going to be one end all because his kingdom is coming to this earth and will fill the whole earth, not just little pockets here and there. 



35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

--Daniel 2



2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

--Rev 22




...and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


--Dan 2

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 09:36:20 PM

Quote from: Zeek on September 29, 2009, 03:49:02 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 03:01:19 PM


....why would it be any different for those who die physically before that time comes when all flesh will be destroyed and all things have been fully recinciled to God such that the kingdom is turned over to the Father, who will be all in all?

so even with your "view; you still look to a time when all "flesh" will be destroyed??  do you mean literal flesh here??

why would there need to be an end all, when it is happening indiviudually, either "while alive-eternal life", or at physical death when every one will see "him as he is"??

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it? What "end all" are you referring to?

All "flesh" will be destroyed. Do I mean that only "literally"? Is that the quesiton? No, I don't. In the sense that "the flesh" is man's carnal nature (not his epidermis), I see this happening individually. So, then, does the "literal" destruction of "the flesh" happen individually, too, right? It rots and returns to dust after we physically die, right?

But what of those who "remain" when the time comes for this world to come to and and for all men to enter into the kingdom of God, into eternity with the Father? That is the only "end all" that I can see, if you want to call it that. Is that what you are asking me?

yes, so you see an end to the literal world??  earth??  and an end to all human life??  and you see this in scripture??  even though, it appears to me that you are "spiritualizing" those scriptures that might refer to an end to the "world". 

or another angle, you still see this "literal world/and physical flesh" from limiting us from "eternity" and entering "the kingdom of God"?? 

Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 09:49:40 PMChrist did not ascent into heaven with blood but just as flesh and bones and spirit. He shed His blood, remember?

There's the implication of multiple ascensions in the New Testament.  For one thing, if He fulfilled the type of the High Priest of ancient Israel, as the book of Hebrews and Acts and other parts of the New Testament seem to strongly support, then the High Priest couldn't be touched as he was taking the sacrificial blood into the holy of holies of Israel.  The book of Hebrews says that so also Christ Jesus entered not into the holy of holies in heaven with the blood of animals, but with His own Blood having obtained salvation eonian.  It says in Hebrews that the earthly Temple was simply a photocopy of the true Temple in heaven.  There's two heavenly Temples.  The one where Christ Jesus took His Blood and then sprinkled all of the people as Moses did with blood in saying that this is the blood of the Covenant which God has enjoined to you, and then there's obviously the Temple that we are according to Paul's, Peter's, and John's writings when we're told that our bodies are that sacred Temple.  If He fulfilled the type of the High Priest of Israel, then He couldn't be touched after His resurrection 'til He'd taken His Blood before God.  One of the Gospel accounts has Him forbidding a woman from touching Him because He had not yet ascended to His God and Father and her God and Father.  Later, however, He emphatically commands all to touch Him for a spirit hath not flesh and bone.  Obviously, He'd made a deposit and was back with the breath of God to breath upon them telling them to receive the Holy Spirit and then the reality of the beginning of that which was spoken by the prophet Joel came on Pentecost of that year.  We've got the disciples on the road to Emmaus that when their eyes were opened by the Word of God He was teaching them, suddenly He vanished.  Where'd He go?  There's nothing that limits His ascension after His resurrection to only the Acts chapter 1 event.  That was more the triumphal entry into New Jerusalem for all of the faithful to His teachings at that time to have seen.

As to the other that Cardinal said, hoping she adds to what she said, but I'll just say that at first I was just as thrown by her comments as you were, like "where is she getting that??" roflol.  However, it IS spiritual in that it cries out, but it's physical in that it can be applied, and the anointing is a type of blood of the Spirit, but there's a slight difference although they go together as in the anointing of the Leper in Leviticus, I'm thinking chapter 14 but don't have a Bible handy to be sure.   Where you've got the Blood and the Oil being applied at the same time. The same thing going on in 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Ephesians, Hebrews, James, 1John, and Revelation.  The Blood speaking of Christ Jesus while the Oil representing the crushing of the Spirit of God as well.

Lord Jesus was crushed for our alienation, darkness, expansion, fears, illnesses, infirmities, iniquities, poverty, restitution, restoration, sanctification, and solidarity with one another, but the grapes and wine imagery of the Scriptures regarding the Spirit can't be ignored and it says in Hebrews that thru the Spirit He made His offering, while on the other hand it can equally be argued that by Himself He purged our sins.  It's hard to argue with the fact that wine in covenant ceremony is often considered the blood of the grape, although in paganism it's combined with the human blood of the fallen individuals making the pact.  However, there's an original kernal of truth of the original revelation of God to man shortly after the fall that got distored as the eons progressed and the nations became more numerous throughout the earth and more individualized in their sins, understandings, and the darkening of their thinking.  And the wine, while being the Blood of Jesus in the last supper is likewise a Biblical imagery of the Holy Spirit, i.e. "the Spirit, the Word, and the Blood agree."

All of this imagery from both the Bible and pagan sources indicates that the anointing is a type of Blood of the Spirit, yet it's the very Blood of Jesus Himself, His physical Blood, that the New Testament is repeatedly speaking of [most often].  Yet, the places where the Blood and Oil are mixed in the Old Testament, Hebrews, James, and John's implications and imagery can't be ignored.  What Cardinal's saying is just a deeper way of looking at it that looks at the whole thing, from a Hebraic perspective, rather than oversimplified doctrinal outlines of it that sometimes go a bit far in "rightly cutting it" until it's no longer recognizeable in the imagery, context, and setting that God gave with all of the precepts.  I personally wish everyone would be a bit more careful in genuinely pouring out everything that's dwelling in their hearts in all wisdom, as they've been endeavoring to do already in accordance with Colossians 3:16, but before hitting the "post" button that folks would stop and look at their post and be like St. Peter who says that it's not burdensome for me to remind you of what you already know, but I'll endeavor to keep on doing it while I'm in this Tabernacle.  And then to simply from their minds add to what their hearts have said with an extra sentence or paragraph [as and where applicable] to remind folks of an extra Scriptural reference for what things are being based upon in addition to the illumination of His Holy Spirit, so that those around here that would sincerely be Bereans, [but might not recognize the Scriptural allusion,] could have something to refer back to that they may not have previously considered within the Written Word.

Quote from: Chris on Today at 02:26:03 PM

Quote from: Doug on Today at 07:36:06 AM

Passing from "death" to "life" when we believe in Christ is like conception, the resurrection from the dead is like a birth. That is why the church, represented by the woman in heaven clothed with the sun, is called our "mother." The saints, her yet unborn children, are called her "seed," Rev. 12:17.

Rev. 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The resurrection of the saints is referred to here:

Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Doug, the "church" (Eve) is made up of both men and women, right? And "she" (according to Paul) "shall be saved in childbearing", right?

It is "we" who must be "delivered of the child", then, isn't it? Just as Paul was?

1 Timothy 2:9-15
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Paul is not referring to the church here, I think; he is teaching that women need to be modest and in subjection to their husbands, bear children, and continue in faith and holiness etc. 

Eve was made for Adam, who said she was "bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh," whereas the church is being prepared to be the bride of Christ. And Paul said:

Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
   
Eve was the mother of all, according to Genesis 3:20; in that sense she was a type of the church. The church is also pictured by Sarah, who is the "mother" of all those who are of faith. Believing women are called daughters of Sarah [1 Pet. 3:6]; that would imply believing men are sons of Sarah. So Sarah represents the church. Similarly, other women who were wives of the patriarchs were types of the church.

Jacob worked 7 years for his bride Rachel; I suggest this is typical of the "seven times" for which Christ confirms his covenant, the "week" of Daniel 9:26, fulfilled by the earthly ministry of Jesus plus the symbolic "time, times and a half," which represents the entire church age, or the remaining part of it.

The serpent pictured in heaven in Rev. 12:4 and verses following represents Satan; the prophecy describes a war in heaven, between angels. Eventually, the angels of Satan are overcome, and the dragon is cast out, with his angels, a cause for rejoicing, for the saints, but woe to those in the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to them, having great wrath at that time.

This war continues today, and involves our understanding of prophecy, including this one.

The woman is clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel, but the sun has been darkened, according to other prophecies, and the moon has been turned to blood, both prophetic symbols. The sun turning to darkness pictures the gospel being obscured by false teachings.

In the parable of the tares, Jesus said when the tares are removed, at the end of the world, the righteous will "shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father." [Matthew 13:43]

Doug

Quote from: Doug on September 29, 2009, 07:57:03 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 28, 2009, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 08:06:48 PM

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The saying of Jesus was obviously a deep one, that requires interpretation, which is partly given in the last verse quoted. He was talking about spiritual things. "Eating his flesh" meant understanding his words. Some of them, we need to "chew" on a little. :Sparkletooth:

So what does it mean to you that it is THE SPIRIT that quickeneth while the flesh profits nothing?

I already suggested an explanation. It was to explain this previous statement of Jesus that gave the disciples so much trouble:

John 6:56
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Here is what John Wesley said:

Verse 63. It is the Spirit - The spiritual meaning of these words, by which God giveth life. The flesh - The bare, carnal, literal meaning, profiteth nothing. The words which I have spoken, they are spirit - Are to be taken in a spiritual sense and, when they are so understood, they are life - That is, a means of spiritual life to the hearers.

J. B. Coffman commented:

This was Jesus' way of saying, "Look, with regard to what I said about eating my flesh and drinking my blood, you must not take that literally, but spiritually. `The flesh profiteth nothing ...' Of course, eating my literal flesh would be to no profit; but my words are spirit and are life. It is my teaching which you must assimilate."

These both give the sense, I think. It has nothing to do with explaining what the eternal state is to be, or the resurrection; it is telling us how to understand the words of Jesus, and also the words of the prophets, which are similar in that they too are to be spiritually understood. They are given to us as parables, figures, visions, "similitudes," etc.

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

I absolutely agree that God speaks in parables/figures/types/similitudes/visions and that His words are to be understood spiritually. But I'm still not seeing the connection you are trying to make here between "the flesh profits nothing" and "He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him" needing to be understood spiritually. Surely this is to be understood spiritually and not literally, but to mix the two messages that way, doesn't make sense to me. Do you believe that His disciples took him literally?

Christ was talking about ascending to where he was before and we know that the last Adam was made "a quickening spirit".

And it is not our spirit that is quickened by the spirit of God, buy the spirit of Christ that dwells in us?

John 6:56   He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jhn 6:63   It is THE SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

That is the connection that I see.

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris on September 28, 2009, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 08:06:48 PM

If it were true that all the saints who lived before, had received their rewards already, some would have lived for many centuries, presumably in heaven, and in all that time, they would have learned much, having been given greatly superior immortal bodies and intellects, not having to take any time to sleep, etc., so it is hard to see why they would not have become much more learned than us, when we finally receive our rewards.

Being so much more qualified, would they not be much better suited for the best positions in the Kingdom, like ruling cities and nations, (or galaxies, or whatever) when Christ assigns those rewards? We, OTOH, would be fit for only the inferior positions.  :sigh:

What "positions" are you talking about? What "cities and nations" are you desiring to rule over? Are you looking for a physical kingdom?

It is from the parable of the talents:

Matthew 25:14-29
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

So you see this as a future event? Where are cities mentioned? Do you see the "talents" as "cities"?

Quote from: Doug
Whether or not they are literal cities, which are given to those servants who are profitable, and who do the will of God, the point I was making is that the scripture shows the saints are to be raised up together, at the coming of Christ, and the last trump. Until then, the saints who have died wait in their graves, like Job.

Job 14:14
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The scriptures say "every man in his own order". Where does it say that all of the saints are raise together, at once?

Do you believe that there in only one resurrection or, as I once did, that the saints are resurrected together in "the first resurrection" which comes before the thousand year reign of Christ which is followed by the general (second) resurrection and "the great white throne judgment"? If you believe that the saints are resurrected "first" in "the first resurrection" can you please explain that in light of Christ's claim that in the time of harvest he would send forth his angels, telling them together "first the tares", which fits perfectly with what Paul said about "the dead in Christ shall rise first" – if we understand "the dead" after a spiritual truth, rather than a carnal one, right? But if we don't then the words of Paul contradict the words of Christ and everyone who believes that the saints are resurrected "first" (as I once did) also believe contrary to the words of Christ. Or how do you explain the words of Christ in light of the most common understanding of "the first resurrection"?

Yes, there is an appointed time. As I see it, it is called "today" (when we hear his voice and harden not our hearts).

Why do you think that your appointed time does not come until after you physically die? Espeically when we know that if Christ dwells in us we "have" eternal life?

Quote from: Doug
The parable indicates that Jesus "reaps where he sowed not, and gathers where he has not strawed." It may indicate that even with incorrect or literal interpretations, people can still believe the gospel, and have faith in Christ, with limited understanding. There is a great range in the lifestyle of saints in the OT, for example. And in the history of the church.

Doug

I agree that there is a wide range of understanding among believers and even various levels of faith, etc. We are to add to both, but can only do so by the grace of God, right?

How do you see that relating to the resurrection of the dead in the way that you see it?

Quote from: Zeek on September 29, 2009, 10:34:36 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 09:36:20 PM

Quote from: Zeek on September 29, 2009, 03:49:02 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 03:01:19 PM


....why would it be any different for those who die physically before that time comes when all flesh will be destroyed and all things have been fully recinciled to God such that the kingdom is turned over to the Father, who will be all in all?

so even with your "view; you still look to a time when all "flesh" will be destroyed??  do you mean literal flesh here??

why would there need to be an end all, when it is happening indiviudually, either "while alive-eternal life", or at physical death when every one will see "him as he is"??

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it? What "end all" are you referring to?

All "flesh" will be destroyed. Do I mean that only "literally"? Is that the quesiton? No, I don't. In the sense that "the flesh" is man's carnal nature (not his epidermis), I see this happening individually. So, then, does the "literal" destruction of "the flesh" happen individually, too, right? It rots and returns to dust after we physically die, right?

But what of those who "remain" when the time comes for this world to come to and and for all men to enter into the kingdom of God, into eternity with the Father? That is the only "end all" that I can see, if you want to call it that. Is that what you are asking me?

yes, so you see an end to the literal world??  earth??  and an end to all human life??  and you see this in scripture??  even though, it appears to me that you are "spiritualizing" those scriptures that might refer to an end to the "world". 

or another angle, you still see this "literal world/and physical flesh" from limiting us from "eternity" and entering "the kingdom of God"?? 

Zeek, I am having a hard time understanding your questions or maybe just the way you phrase them, so please bear with me as I try to answer what I 'think' you are asking.  :mblush:

Yes, I see an end to the literal world/earth and an end to human life (as we know it). I certianly do not believe that we cease to exist, though.

I'm not sure what you mean about me "spiritualizing" those verses that might refer to "the end of the world"... if you are claiming that the verses exist? Am I not supposed to take them "literally" if I am the one claiming that the world does cease to exist and this is what the scriptures say? Or am I "spiritualizing" them by taking them literally when I shouldn't? Or are you saying they do not exist?  :grin: I am confused? (honestly)  :mblush:

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, yet the kingdom of God is within, right? So how does flesh and blood prohibit us from entering into the kingdom?

I see that entrance as spiritual. Do you see it as physical?

Quote from: Doug on September 29, 2009, 11:33:55 PM

Quote from: Chris on Today at 02:26:03 PM

Quote from: Doug on Today at 07:36:06 AM

Passing from "death" to "life" when we believe in Christ is like conception, the resurrection from the dead is like a birth. That is why the church, represented by the woman in heaven clothed with the sun, is called our "mother." The saints, her yet unborn children, are called her "seed," Rev. 12:17.

Rev. 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The resurrection of the saints is referred to here:

Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Doug, the "church" (Eve) is made up of both men and women, right? And "she" (according to Paul) "shall be saved in childbearing", right?

It is "we" who must be "delivered of the child", then, isn't it? Just as Paul was?

1 Timothy 2:9-15
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Paul is not referring to the church here, I think; he is teaching that women need to be modest and in subjection to their husbands, bear children, and continue in faith and holiness etc. 

Eve was made for Adam, who said she was "bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh," whereas the church is being prepared to be the bride of Christ. And Paul said:

Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
   
Eve was the mother of all, according to Genesis 3:20; in that sense she was a type of the church. The church is also pictured by Sarah, who is the "mother" of all those who are of faith. Believing women are called daughters of Sarah [1 Pet. 3:6]; that would imply believing men are sons of Sarah. So Sarah represents the church. Similarly, other women who were wives of the patriarchs were types of the church.

Jacob worked 7 years for his bride Rachel; I suggest this is typical of the "seven times" for which Christ confirms his covenant, the "week" of Daniel 9:26, fulfilled by the earthly ministry of Jesus plus the symbolic "time, times and a half," which represents the entire church age, or the remaining part of it.

The serpent pictured in heaven in Rev. 12:4 and verses following represents Satan; the prophecy describes a war in heaven, between angels. Eventually, the angels of Satan are overcome, and the dragon is cast out, with his angels, a cause for rejoicing, for the saints, but woe to those in the earth and sea, because the devil has come down to them, having great wrath at that time.

This war continues today, and involves our understanding of prophecy, including this one.

The woman is clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel, but the sun has been darkened, according to other prophecies, and the moon has been turned to blood, both prophetic symbols. The sun turning to darkness pictures the gospel being obscured by false teachings.

In the parable of the tares, Jesus said when the tares are removed, at the end of the world, the righteous will "shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father." [Matthew 13:43]

Doug

You mention so many other "similitudes" even in your response here to tell me that Paul is not talking about the church and yet you can't see "the woman" as a figure of "the church" (made up of both male and female)?

Paul even ends the passage with a direct reference to Adam and Eve (a figure of Christ and the church) and how "she" (being deceived) "shall be saved in childbearing".

You see no connection to that and Christ's words to His disciples about "a woman in travial" and Paul's own experience of "travailing in birth" (and being delieverd of the child... ie putting away childish things)?

Well, I won't say any more about that here as that will take us way off topic, but it is an interesting study.  Maybe we can address it on another thread some other time.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Chris on Today at 06:12:25 PM

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris on September 28, 2009, 08:56:46 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 28, 2009, 08:06:48 PM
If it were true that all the saints who lived before, had received their rewards already, some would have lived for many centuries, presumably in heaven, and in all that time, they would have learned much, having been given greatly superior immortal bodies and intellects, not having to take any time to sleep, etc., so it is hard to see why they would not have become much more learned than us, when we finally receive our rewards.

Being so much more qualified, would they not be much better suited for the best positions in the Kingdom, like ruling cities and nations, (or galaxies, or whatever) when Christ assigns those rewards? We, OTOH, would be fit for only the inferior positions.   :sigh:

What "positions" are you talking about? What "cities and nations" are you desiring to rule over? Are you looking for a physical kingdom?

It is from the parable of the talents:

Matthew 25:14-29
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

So you see this as a future event?

The parable above is included in the Olivet Discourse. I think Christ meant us to see his words and the prophecies of scripture as "talents" that are committed to our stewardship. These may provide us with light and understanding, and bear fruit, depending on how we interpret them. Some may find them too obscure, and pay them no attention at all. Others may obtain some light and guidance, and then there are those who find deep meaning that they can act upon, and become very fruitful for the kingdom of God.

I think literalists tend to be in the less fruitful category; literalism is like burying a talent in the ground. The most fruitful category would be those who discover the true meaning of Christ's words and take appropriate action.  IMO.

Quote from: Chris on Today at 06:12:25 PM

Where are cities mentioned? Do you see the "talents" as "cities"?

Oops, the cities are mentioned in Luke's version, sorry. Here it is:

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Quote from: Chris on Today at 06:12:25 PM

Quote from: DougWhether or not they are literal cities, which are given to those servants who are profitable, and who do the will of God, the point I was making is that the scripture shows the saints are to be raised up together, at the coming of Christ, and the last trump. Until then, the saints who have died wait in their graves, like Job.

Job 14:14
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The scriptures say "every man in his own order". Where does it say that all of the saints are raise together, at once?

Isaiah 66:6-13
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Compare the above prophecy with Rev. 12:1-6. Do you see any similarities? In verse 7, the man child corresponds to the man child in Rev. 12:5, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. This is referring to Christ.

Verses 8-9 refer to the resurrection, I think; the time when the saints who died are raised up from their graves, and those who are alive are suddenly changed to immortality as described by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.

Doug

Hi Martin ole buddy ole pal,
I agree completely with you that Christ ascended into heaven after he met Miriam who He told not to touch Him, and then came back and told Thomas to handle Him and see that a spirit has not flesh and bones as you perceive Me having.

Now then, as you suggest there are types in the OT such as the high priest taking the blood into the holy of holies. However, just because the high priest did that, this does not mean Christ somehow went back to the cross and found some of His blood and took it to heaven into the celestial holy of holies (Lev.16:15-22 etc). I mean, The priests the day they crucified Jesus did not really turn Jesus into a goat, literally, and let another goat run free with the sins of the people into the wilderness. They may have put the sins of the people on a hairy goat and chased it out into the wilderness that day but Jesus was not a hairy goat. Somewhere the type has to stop.

I believe what Jesus did was to present Himself to the Father and say, Look! I've shed all my blood for the sin of the world. Look at the gaping hole in my side and the holes in my hands and feet. The Father was satisfied. Probably on the way to the holy of holies in the heavenlies Christ heralded to the spirits in prison that He was now the suzereign of the universe.

Tony

Quote from: martincisneros on September 29, 2009, 10:54:00 PM

Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 09:49:40 PMChrist did not ascent into heaven with blood but just as flesh and bones and spirit. He shed His blood, remember?

There's the implication of multiple ascensions in the New Testament.  For one thing, if He fulfilled the type of the High Priest of ancient Israel, as the book of Hebrews and Acts and other parts of the New Testament seem to strongly support, then the High Priest couldn't be touched as he was taking the sacrificial blood into the holy of holies of Israel.  The book of Hebrews says that so also Christ Jesus entered not into the holy of holies in heaven with the blood of animals, but with His own Blood having obtained salvation eonian.  It says in Hebrews that the earthly Temple was simply a photocopy of the true Temple in heaven.  There's two heavenly Temples.  The one where Christ Jesus took His Blood and then sprinkled all of the people as Moses did with blood in saying that this is the blood of the Covenant which God has enjoined to you, and then there's obviously the Temple that we are according to Paul's, Peter's, and John's writings when we're told that our bodies are that sacred Temple.  If He fulfilled the type of the High Priest of Israel, then He couldn't be touched after His resurrection 'til He'd taken His Blood before God.  One of the Gospel accounts has Him forbidding a woman from touching Him because He had not yet ascended to His God and Father and her God and Father.  Later, however, He emphatically commands all to touch Him for a spirit hath not flesh and bone.  Obviously, He'd made a deposit and was back with the breath of God to breath upon them telling them to receive the Holy Spirit and then the reality of the beginning of that which was spoken by the prophet Joel came on Pentecost of that year.  We've got the disciples on the road to Emmaus that when their eyes were opened by the Word of God He was teaching them, suddenly He vanished.  Where'd He go?  There's nothing that limits His ascension after His resurrection to only the Acts chapter 1 event.  That was more the triumphal entry into New Jerusalem for all of the faithful to His teachings at that time to have seen.

As to the other that Cardinal said, hoping she adds to what she said, but I'll just say that at first I was just as thrown by her comments as you were, like "where is she getting that??" roflol.  However, it IS spiritual in that it cries out, but it's physical in that it can be applied, and the anointing is a type of blood of the Spirit, but there's a slight difference although they go together as in the anointing of the Leper in Leviticus, I'm thinking chapter 14 but don't have a Bible handy to be sure.   Where you've got the Blood and the Oil being applied at the same time. The same thing going on in 1st and 2nd Corinthians, Ephesians, Hebrews, James, 1John, and Revelation.  The Blood speaking of Christ Jesus while the Oil representing the crushing of the Spirit of God as well.

Lord Jesus was crushed for our alienation, darkness, expansion, fears, illnesses, infirmities, iniquities, poverty, restitution, restoration, sanctification, and solidarity with one another, but the grapes and wine imagery of the Scriptures regarding the Spirit can't be ignored and it says in Hebrews that thru the Spirit He made His offering, while on the other hand it can equally be argued that by Himself He purged our sins.  It's hard to argue with the fact that wine in covenant ceremony is often considered the blood of the grape, although in paganism it's combined with the human blood of the fallen individuals making the pact.  However, there's an original kernal of truth of the original revelation of God to man shortly after the fall that got distored as the eons progressed and the nations became more numerous throughout the earth and more individualized in their sins, understandings, and the darkening of their thinking.  And the wine, while being the Blood of Jesus in the last supper is likewise a Biblical imagery of the Holy Spirit, i.e. "the Spirit, the Word, and the Blood agree."

All of this imagery from both the Bible and pagan sources indicates that the anointing is a type of Blood of the Spirit, yet it's the very Blood of Jesus Himself, His physical Blood, that the New Testament is repeatedly speaking of [most often].  Yet, the places where the Blood and Oil are mixed in the Old Testament, Hebrews, James, and John's implications and imagery can't be ignored.  What Cardinal's saying is just a deeper way of looking at it that looks at the whole thing, from a Hebraic perspective, rather than oversimplified doctrinal outlines of it that sometimes go a bit far in "rightly cutting it" until it's no longer recognizeable in the imagery, context, and setting that God gave with all of the precepts.  I personally wish everyone would be a bit more careful in genuinely pouring out everything that's dwelling in their hearts in all wisdom, as they've been endeavoring to do already in accordance with Colossians 3:16, but before hitting the "post" button that folks would stop and look at their post and be like St. Peter who says that it's not burdensome for me to remind you of what you already know, but I'll endeavor to keep on doing it while I'm in this Tabernacle.  And then to simply from their minds add to what their hearts have said with an extra sentence or paragraph [as and where applicable] to remind folks of an extra Scriptural reference for what things are being based upon in addition to the illumination of His Holy Spirit, so that those around here that would sincerely be Bereans, [but might not recognize the Scriptural allusion,] could have something to refer back to that they may not have previously considered within the Written Word.

Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2009, 08:31:16 PM

Quote from: Tony N on September 29, 2009, 02:38:42 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2009, 07:17:34 AM
:cloud9: Molly, when I read your thought here, the thought I had right behind it, was that it was thru their blood. The life of the soul is in the blood also, so like a spiritual "blood guiltiness" pattern of the OT? Just thinking out loud here.......Blessings...

The bible does not say "the life of the soul is in the blood." Rather, it just says "the soul is in the blood."

:cloud9: Tony, you know I respect your opinion a great deal, and glean a lot from what you write, but we are not always on the same page as far as looking at/for the natural things that are bearing witness for the spiritual.

So, that said, I guess that would depend on which blood you're talking about. He breathed (which is Spirit and HIS blood) into Adam and he became a living soul, or a soul that had life. So if the soul is in the blood (natural blood) and the life (His blood which is Spirit) is in the soul........unless of course you think natural blood is what was taken into heaven, seeing how flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom. Blessings....

Wait..you said..
He breathed spirit and blood into Adam and Adam became a living soul.
Then you say the soul is in the blood. So really, what you meant to say was that He breathed spirit and SOUL into Adam. Then you say the blood which is spirit.. which means you then really meant that He breathed spirt and spirit into Adam.

Cardinal, huh?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Chris on  Today at 02:26:03 PM

Who is it that Christ said would be harvested first? Was it not "the tares"? So then shouldn't "the tares" spoken of by Christ correlate in some way to "the dead" spoken of by Paul, who are gathered first?

No, I don't think there is a connection.

Doug

Reading through this thread is making my eyes look like this:  :prankster:
lol... that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Just... man! Lots going on in here.  :laughing7:

Quote from: Doug on September 30, 2009, 02:15:37 AM
The parable above is included in the Olivet Discourse. I think Christ meant us to see his words and the prophecies of scripture as "talents" that are committed to our stewardship. These may provide us with light and understanding, and bear fruit, depending on how we interpret them. Some may find them too obscure, and pay them no attention at all. Others may obtain some light and guidance, and then there are those who find deep meaning that they can act upon, and become very fruitful for the kingdom of God.

I think literalists tend to be in the less fruitful category; literalism is like burying a talent in the ground. The most fruitful category would be those who discover the true meaning of Christ's words and take appropriate action.  IMO.

So you do or don't see this as "future"? It seems that you don't as you seem to apply it to our current understanding/actions/etc. But if that is so, then how does this apply to what you were talking about in relation to ruling over cities in the future, after we physically die and are later resurrected?

Quote from: Doug

Oops, the cities are mentioned in Luke's version, sorry. Here it is:

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

How does this point to you ruling over cities after you physically die and are resurrected?

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris

The scriptures say "every man in his own order". Where does it say that all of the saints are raise together, at once?

Isaiah 66:6-13
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Compare the above prophecy with Rev. 12:1-6. Do you see any similarities? In verse 7, the man child corresponds to the man child in Rev. 12:5, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. This is referring to Christ.

Verses 8-9 refer to the resurrection, I think; the time when the saints who died are raised up from their graves, and those who are alive are suddenly changed to immortality as described by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.

Doug

I still disagree, as I do not understand Paul to be talking about a future physical resurrection in 1 Cor 15. And "children" are not "sons" (spiritually speaking).

BTW, it's not that I don't believe that we are all raised "together". I believe that we have already been raised together with Christ, having been gathered together into one body - even though some "sleep".

But I do not believe that any of those verses speak to a future physical resurrection that takes place after one's physical death. It's just not how I see it (though I once did).

Quote from: Doug on September 30, 2009, 02:52:48 AM

Quote from: Chris on  Today at 02:26:03 PM

Who is it that Christ said would be harvested first? Was it not "the tares"? So then shouldn't "the tares" spoken of by Christ correlate in some way to "the dead" spoken of by Paul, who are gathered first?

No, I don't think there is a connection.

Doug

Weren't they both speaking about "the harvest" that is to take place at "the end of the world"? (If you don't think so, then why not?)

Christ says that "the tares" will be gathered first.

Paul says that "the dead in Christ" shall rise first.

Those two statements agree only if  "the dead in Christ" = "the tares"

And who are "the tares" (spiritually speaking) if not those who are "dead" in sin?

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

Or how are these two statements not connected?

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 01:24:12 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 29, 2009, 10:34:36 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 09:36:20 PM

Quote from: Zeek on September 29, 2009, 03:49:02 PM

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 03:01:19 PM


....why would it be any different for those who die physically before that time comes when all flesh will be destroyed and all things have been fully recinciled to God such that the kingdom is turned over to the Father, who will be all in all?

so even with your "view; you still look to a time when all "flesh" will be destroyed??  do you mean literal flesh here??

why would there need to be an end all, when it is happening indiviudually, either "while alive-eternal life", or at physical death when every one will see "him as he is"??

I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it? What "end all" are you referring to?

All "flesh" will be destroyed. Do I mean that only "literally"? Is that the quesiton? No, I don't. In the sense that "the flesh" is man's carnal nature (not his epidermis), I see this happening individually. So, then, does the "literal" destruction of "the flesh" happen individually, too, right? It rots and returns to dust after we physically die, right?

But what of those who "remain" when the time comes for this world to come to and and for all men to enter into the kingdom of God, into eternity with the Father? That is the only "end all" that I can see, if you want to call it that. Is that what you are asking me?

yes, so you see an end to the literal world??  earth??  and an end to all human life??  and you see this in scripture??  even though, it appears to me that you are "spiritualizing" those scriptures that might refer to an end to the "world". 

or another angle, you still see this "literal world/and physical flesh" from limiting us from "eternity" and entering "the kingdom of God"?? 

Zeek, I am having a hard time understanding your questions or maybe just the way you phrase them, so please bear with me as I try to answer what I 'think' you are asking.  :mblush:

Yes, I see an end to the literal world/earth and an end to human life (as we know it). I certianly do not believe that we cease to exist, though.

I'm not sure what you mean about me "spiritualizing" those verses that might refer to "the end of the world"... if you are claiming that the verses exist? Am I not supposed to take them "literally" if I am the one claiming that the world does cease to exist and this is what the scriptures say? Or am I "spiritualizing" them by taking them literally when I shouldn't? Or are you saying they do not exist?  :grin: I am confused? (honestly)  :mblush:

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, yet the kingdom of God is within, right? So how does flesh and blood prohibit us from entering into the kingdom?

I see that entrance as spiritual. Do you see it as physical?

never mind Chris,

I am unable to explain myself clearly for you to understand my question. 

enjoying reading your contributions.

:HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

I agree!  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.  

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.  During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.


Jas 5:7-9 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:43:20 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.

Yes......adding to your thought here, dead bodies also raise to the surface of the waters, but don't have the right garment, ie. are not in the Ark which is Christ. Some resurrecting to shame, others to endless life.  

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.  During the apostles time on earth, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

That's good, I see that.  :thumbsup: And He divided the waters from the waters in Genesis. Blessings.....

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 ...are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker...

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:27:58 AM

never mind Chris,

I am unable to explain myself clearly for you to understand my question. 

enjoying reading your contributions.

:HeartThrob:

I don't mind explaining, I just might have to ask you questions, too, in order to make sure I am understanding and answering the question that you are asking.  :Peace2:

 :cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:43:20 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.  

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.  During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

1Pe 1:8-9 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

They did not receive the end of their faith?

If it all boils down to "Christ in you" and he is "the end" that we are to endure to, even the author and finisher of our faith; how can the apostles of Christ have lived and died and not received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls?

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:07:05 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:43:20 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.  

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.  During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

1Pe 1:8-9 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

They did not receive the end of their faith?

If it all boils down to "Christ in you" and he is "the end" that we are to endure to, even the author and finisher of our faith; how can the apostles of Christ have lived and died and not received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls?

If they received the end of their faith during the time that the epistles were written,  then no longer were they having their faith tried in fire, and no longer were they under intense persecution by the tares.   

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:54:39 AM
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 ...are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker...

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

hope implies "future"

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:14:19 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:54:39 AM
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 ...are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker...

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

to me, the presence tense is

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Paul, a man/son via  faith; full of Spirit; says this

And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand" (Rom.13:11-12).

OUR salvation is near, not "your salvation". 

To me, this implies a "corporate resurrection", not an individual resurrection.  In other words, he didn't say, soon  some of you will receive your salvation like I have, but rather was inclusive "our" salvation.

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:13:31 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:07:05 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:43:20 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 04:31:24 AM
:cloud9: Just a sidenote.........the wheat/Christ and the tares/the dead, WERE raised up together. Blessings....

and in the simultude Noah story; Noah was not "raised" during the time he built the ark by faith and had his faith tried; but rather was raised when the "rain" came(at a later date), simultaneously "drowning" the tares; and raising up above the waters the wheat.  

Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.  During the apostles time on earthh, they still had not received the end of their faith; but rather; per Galatians 4 were having their faith "tried' through persecution by the "ishmaels", waiting for a "soon" coming resurrection "above the waters".

1Pe 1:8-9 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

They did not receive the end of their faith?

If it all boils down to "Christ in you" and he is "the end" that we are to endure to, even the author and finisher of our faith; how can the apostles of Christ have lived and died and not received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls?

If they received the end of their faith during the time that the epistles were written,  then no longer were they having their faith tried in fire, and no longer were they under intense persecution by the tares.   

Paul reached the point where he rejoiced in His sufferings, being a partaker of the suffering of Christ. The fact that one is 'being persecuted', doesn't necessarily mean that they 'feel' persecuted, in the way that others might 'feel' persecuted, does it?

How can one have Christ in them, having eternal life.... and not have received the end of their faith, even the salvation of their soul? when it is "Christ in you, the hope of glory"?

Peter says that they were receiving it? But they never actually did receive it?

Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:16:31 AM
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

hope implies "future"

Because it is "the hope" (and still future) for those who do not yet "have" eternal life (which is to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent, right?); who have not yet passed from death unto life, who still "sleep", who are still "dead" in sin.

Are we all still dead in sin, none of us having passed from death unto life? Not even the apostles of Jesus Christ, of whom Paul was but one? (That speaks contrary to what Paul said in other places of scripture.)

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:31:43 AM


Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".  

I believe it was covenental.  Old to new.  

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

now/today is a "realization of what is already complete".  

 



 

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:37:04 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:16:31 AM
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

hope implies "future"

Because it is "the hope" (and still future) for those who do not yet "have" eternal life (which is to know God and Jesus Christ whom he sent, right?); who have not yet passed from death unto life, who still "sleep", who are still "dead" in sin.

but Paul includes himself in that "hope", per Romans verse I earlier quoted.

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:18:22 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:14:19 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:54:39 AM
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 ...are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker...

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

to me, the presence tense is

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And this applies to Paul when he said:

1Jo 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

These words (and others like them) are speaking of things that had not actually happened yet when the words were spoken? These things won't actually happen until after we die physically?

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:26:35 AM
Paul, a man/son via  faith; full of Spirit; says this

And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand" (Rom.13:11-12).

OUR salvation is near, not "your salvation". 

To me, this implies a "corporate resurrection", not an individual resurrection.  In other words, he didn't say, soon  some of you will receive your salvation like I have, but rather was inclusive "our" salvation.

Technically (if I can call it that?) salvation was wrought at the cross and "it is finished". We have all already been saved. It's just that we do not all know it or walk in it.

If it is time for us to awake from sleep and rise from the dead and that only happens in a single moment for all of us, all at the same time, tied to a physical resurrection that we all experience at the same time, then what is "Christ in you"? What is "eternal life"? What does it mean to be "born again"? Why do some HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and some ABIDE IN DEATH if, in fact, we are all actually still "dead"?

Of course Paul included himself. Why wouldn't he? We cannot justify ourselves. We cannot bear witness of ourselves. We cannot say that we are perfect or without sin or the truth is not in us. Only God can bear witness of us. And even if we have attained unto the resurrection of the dead, we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize of the high calling of God in Jesus Christ, just as Paul did (and tells us to do).

Paul was "delivered of the child" and he waited (and "travailed in birth again") for others to experience the same things that he did, even if he "counted it not" for himself, as he waited for Christ to be formed in them, as this 'is' the hope of glory; the hope of eternal life; the promise given - and fulfilled - in those who believe, is it not?

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:43:43 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:18:22 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:14:19 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 04:54:39 AM
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

2Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign –

Heb 1:14 ...are they not all spirits of service -- for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

1Pet 5:1 Elders who [are] among you, I exhort, who [am] a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the glory about to be revealed a partaker...

Rev 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things;

And there are also verses that speak in the present and even past tense, right? So how are they reconciled with that which is "about to be"? Seems like Rev 1:19 addresses all three... was, is, and will be.

We start out as "children", even "infants" ("babes", who are "yet carnal"), and grow into toddlers and young men/women... and ultimately into mature "sons". Right?

So what is "about to be" for one person might be what "is" taking place for another and what has "already" taken place for another in their spiritual development, right? In this way, "the resurrection is not past", as Christ (who IS the resurrection) was, is and is to come. Amen?

to me, the presence tense is

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And this applies to Paul when he said:

1Jo 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Eph 2:4-7 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

These words (and others like them) are speaking of things that had not actually happened yet when the words were spoken? These things won't actually happen until after we die physically?

Before Noah was resurrected above the "waters",


Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:18  But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark ("future"), thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Gen 7:5  And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

(imo, worked out his salvation with fear and trembling, staying faithful to the end)

Gen 7:17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.

and the end result, "a new world".

receiving the end of their faith, salvation of their souls.

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:39:31 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:31:43 AM


Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".  

I believe it was covenental.  Old to new.  

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

now/today is a "realization of what is already complete".  

 

But aren't you saying that none of these things 'are' complete? That it's only calling that which is not, as though it is?

What am I missing?  :mblush:

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 05:03:25 AM
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 06:01:11 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:39:31 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:31:43 AM


Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".  

I believe it was covenental.  Old to new.  

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

now/today is a "realization of what is already complete".  

 

But aren't you saying that none of these things 'are' complete? That it's only calling that which is not, as though it is?

What am I missing?  :mblush:

Well, here is probably where i'll lose ya; but imo; all this is NOW complete; I truly believe that the "end came" upon that generation.  


And NOW; applying  this in a "spiritual" sense is fine; but as one can see; many "spirit filled" belivers with "the  mind of Christ", don't see things the same.  And I personally see a "burning of the tares" within me; and the "wheat being renewed day by day" as happening "in me", and this to me is a personal application I think is true for me; because of the "completed work already accomplished".

probably not explaining myself well, but wayI see it for now.

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:39:31 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:31:43 AM


Yes, it is about he who "endures to the end" and Paul says that where unto we have already attained we are to "count it not" and continue to strive for the prize... but that is very different from saying that no one ever actually receives the end of their faith or the salvation of their souls this side of their natural death. Is that what you are saying?

This would mean that we all we can do is "endure to the end" of our natural life? For salvation waits for us only on the other side of it, but not on this side of it? 

No, I think it had nothing to do with "natural death".  

I believe it was covenental.  Old to new.  

I believe personally, that the first century time was a "working out" from "old to new" and

now/today is a "realization of what is already complete".  

Need to also ask... if it has nothing to do with natural death, then why such the tight connection to (even dependence upon) a post natural death resurrection?

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 06:02:44 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 05:03:25 AM
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Oh good.  I need to wind down too.

Blessings sister;  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 06:06:44 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 06:02:44 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 05:03:25 AM
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Oh good.  I need to wind down too.

Blessings sister;  :HeartThrob:

yeah, If I don't tear myself away, I'll end up talking til after midnight and get no sleep. So I better just stop reading for the night.  :grin:

Have a good night... catch ya on the flip side!!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 06:08:30 AM

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 06:06:44 AM

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 06:02:44 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on September 30, 2009, 05:03:25 AM
:cloud9: Glad to see you posting with us, Chris........ :girlheart:

Thanks Cardinal! I'm about to have to call it a night, though. It's after 10 and I have to get up at 4.  :mshock:

Oh good.  I need to wind down too.

Blessings sister;  :HeartThrob:

yeah, If I don't tear myself away, I'll end up talking til after midnight and get no sleep. So I better just stop reading for the night.  :grin:

Have a good night... catch ya on the flip side!!  :thumbsup:

  well it is 11:35 and have loved reading this thread!   :thumbsup:
thanks to all who have contributed      hearing lots and learning lots and removing some ol cobwebs  in my mind lol    :HeartThrob:   rose

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


Here Paul is describing a partial resurrection--the firstfruits of the Spirit.  Thus the grain of wheat has fallen to the ground and died and grown into a new [spiritual] body which has produced its first fruit--the fruits of the Spirit.  It is Spirit [Christ] which will inherit the kingdom, not flesh.   All that means is if you see any earthly people running around claiming to be king, don't believe it.  They are still flesh.   But we see here Paul is still waiting for the complete redemption--which will include the body.

We will not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed at the molecular level--atomos--and this corruptible body will put on incorruption.

In other words, I wait to be 30 again, forever.  :happygrin:

 :cloud9: Works for me, but I think it'll be closer to 18  :laughing7:

I don't know, I always thought 11 was kinda cool.

:laughing7:

you all are making me laugh.

:HeartThrob:

love ya.

Quote from: Molly on September 30, 2009, 07:11:32 AM
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


Here Paul is describing a partial resurrection--the firstfruits of the Spirit.  Thus the grain of wheat has fallen to the ground and died and grown into a new [spiritual] body which has produced its first fruit--the fruits of the Spirit.  It is Spirit [Christ] which will inherit the kingdom, not flesh.   All that means is if you see any earthly people running around claiming to be king, don't believe it.  They are still flesh.   But we see here Paul is still waiting for the complete redemption--which will include the body.

We will not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed at the molecular level--atomos--and this corruptible body will put on incorruption.

In other words, I wait to be 30 again, forever.  :happygrin:

True, but Paul is talking about "we" who have "the first-fruits of the spirit". When are we sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise? And the promise of what?

For me, it still seems to be the matter of the difference between "children" and "sons". We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe and "babes" in Christ are "yet carnal". Some may never "mature" or "go on unto perfection" (able to teach others, rather than be in need of one to teach them, etc), but are we saying that no one ever goes on unto perfection, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit "the redemption of the body")?

29 was a good year!  :laughing7:

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 09:26:38 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 29, 2009, 07:52:48 PM

Quote from: Chris
Who is it that Christ said would be harvested first? Was it not "the tares"? So then shouldn't "the tares" spoken of by Christ correlate in some way to "the dead" spoken of by Paul, who are gathered first?

No, I don't think there is a connection.

Doug

Weren't they both speaking about "the harvest" that is to take place at "the end of the world"? (If you don't think so, then why not?)

Christ says that "the tares" will be gathered first.

Paul says that "the dead in Christ" shall rise first.

Those two statements agree only if  "the dead in Christ" = "the tares"

And who are "the tares" (spiritually speaking) if not those who are "dead" in sin?

The tares of Christ's parable are not those who Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ."

In Romans Paul spoke of the old man being dead for a Christian, as pictured by baptism. It is a metaphor.

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
   
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is quite different to Christians who have died in the past being raised again at the last trumpet, when Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Quote from: Chris on September 29, 2009, 09:26:38 PM

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

Or how are these two statements not connected?

Here is the interpretation Christ gave to the parable of the tares.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice that the things gathered out of his kingdom are "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

Below is an article about tares from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae family and part of the Lolium genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.

It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", whose ears are light, stands up straight. The wheat will also appear brown when ripe, whereas the darnel is black.
It parasitizes wheat fields. The French word for darnel is "ivraie" (from Latin "ebriacus"), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also aluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).

The traditional Anglo-Saxon surname "Darnell" comes from those who grew this weed for intoxicatory purposes.

It is also gives its name to another edible grain, aquatic cockle, known as "false rice."

The plant is mentioned in Horace's Satire 2.6 (eaten by the Country mouse while he serves his guest fancier foods) and in the Parable of the Tares in the Gospel of Matthew:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  - Matthew 13:30

This is instructive, IMO, especially the idea of tares being called "false wheat." Does this suggest the idea of "phony Christians" to anyone?

There have been "tares" among the "wheat" in every generation since the first century. The Reformers struggled against tares, which threatened to choke the knowledge of the scriptures.

An example of one of the "tares" that flourished for centuries, and that has been "harvested" and burned up, is the notion of a rigid heavenly firmament revolving around the earth each day, carrying the stars. This false belief, widely held for many centuries, and embraced by many of the early church fathers, has been entirely discredited, as foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4 about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The prophecy has come to pass, precisely. The supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, during the scientific revolution, just like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating when they are rolled together. The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology and all the planetary spheres have been forever abolished. This also fulfilled the prophecy of Peter, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise."

In the end of the age, "all things that offend" are to be removed from the kingdom by the angels of God. All the flawed interpretations of prophecy, and all delusions will be destroyed! If we defend any of those false opinions, we may get burned too. IMO.

Doug

 

Quote from: Chris...but are we saying that no one ever goes on unto perfection, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit "the redemption of the body")?

It's a good question.  There might be a few.  But I think it is the event that will usher in the next aeon, the manifestation of the sons of God.

--That means the revealing of the sons who might already be here. 


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.




the     salvation     of our God

'êth    y'shû‛âh        'ĕlôhîym

Quote from: Doug on September 30, 2009, 04:47:03 PM

The tares of Christ's parable are not those who Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ."

In Romans Paul spoke of the old man being dead for a Christian, as pictured by baptism. It is a metaphor.

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
   
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is quite different to Christians who have died in the past being raised again at the last trumpet, when Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That verse is not talking about Christians who have died in the past. Paul is talking about those "who remain"... whether they be "alive" or "dead" (after a spiritual truth) and it is "the dead" who are raised first.

To say otherwise is to contradict the very words of Christ who said that in the time of harvest it would be "the tares" that are harvested first:

Mat 13:30   Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.   

Those who have already died (after a carnal truth) are already with the Lord! 

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

Or how are these two statements not connected?

Here is the interpretation Christ gave to the parable of the tares.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I know who the tares are, Doug. I asked you if the tares are not, indeed, "dead" (after a spiritual truth)? And who it is that Christ said is harvested/gathered "first"?

Is it not "the tares" who are gathered first, according to Christ, and are the tares not "dead" (according to a spiritual, not a carnal, truth)?

Quote from: Doug

Notice that the things gathered out of his kingdom are "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

Amen! So are "the tares" (gathered first and gathered to be burned) not those who are "dead" after a spiritual truth? Those who walk in darkness? The children of the wicked one?

Quote from: Doug

Below is an article about tares from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae family and part of the Lolium genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.

It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", whose ears are light, stands up straight. The wheat will also appear brown when ripe, whereas the darnel is black.
It parasitizes wheat fields. The French word for darnel is "ivraie" (from Latin "ebriacus"), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also aluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).

The traditional Anglo-Saxon surname "Darnell" comes from those who grew this weed for intoxicatory purposes.

It is also gives its name to another edible grain, aquatic cockle, known as "false rice."

The plant is mentioned in Horace's Satire 2.6 (eaten by the Country mouse while he serves his guest fancier foods) and in the Parable of the Tares in the Gospel of Matthew:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  - Matthew 13:30

This is instructive, IMO, especially the idea of tares being called "false wheat." Does this suggest the idea of "phony Christians" to anyone?

There have been "tares" among the "wheat" in every generation since the first century. The Reformers struggled against tares, which threatened to choke the knowledge of the scriptures.

An example of one of the "tares" that flourished for centuries, and that has been "harvested" and burned up, is the notion of a rigid heavenly firmament revolving around the earth each day, carrying the stars. This false belief, widely held for many centuries, and embraced by many of the early church fathers, has been entirely discredited, as foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4 about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The prophecy has come to pass, precisely. The supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, during the scientific revolution, just like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating when they are rolled together. The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology and all the planetary spheres have been forever abolished. This also fulfilled the prophecy of Peter, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise."

In the end of the age, "all things that offend" are to be removed from the kingdom by the angels of God. All the flawed interpretations of prophecy, and all delusions will be destroyed! If we defend any of those false opinions, we may get burned too. IMO.

Doug

Good article!  :thumbsup:

We know that the tares need to be separated from the what (just as the goats are separated from the sheep). This article even quotes Mat 13:30.

Who did Christ say is harvested/raised/gathered FIRST?

Quote from: Molly on September 30, 2009, 05:20:15 PM

Quote from: Chris...but are we saying that no one ever goes on unto perfection, receiving "the adoption of sons" (to wit "the redemption of the body")?

It's a good question.  There might be a few.  But I think it is the event that will usher in the next aeon, the manifestation of the sons of God.

--That means the revealing of the sons who might already be here. 


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.




the     salvation     of our God

'êth    y'shû‛âh        'ĕlôhîym

Are you saying that the adoption of sons doesn't take place in this life?

  for some it sure does Chris , to me anyhoo!  :HeartThrob:

sons of God holy  angels   /holy ones   THE WORD declares it ...

  rose

Quote from: ChrisAre you saying that the adoption of sons doesn't take place in this life?

...waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


I think what Paul is talking about here has yet to take place.

That is, it has spiritually taken place [as Paul says--the downpayment] but now our bodies have to be redeemed.



[the] "adoption"

G5206
υἱοθεσία
uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).


[the] "redemption"

G629
ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.


[of our] "body"

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

Quote from: Chris on September 30, 2009, 05:24:35 PM

Quote from: Doug on September 30, 2009, 04:47:03 PM

The tares of Christ's parable are not those who Paul referred to as "the dead in Christ."

In Romans Paul spoke of the old man being dead for a Christian, as pictured by baptism. It is a metaphor.

Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
   
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is quite different to Christians who have died in the past being raised again at the last trumpet, when Christ returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That verse is not talking about Christians who have died in the past. Paul is talking about those "who remain"... whether they be "alive" or "dead" (after a spiritual truth) and it is "the dead" who are raised first.

To say otherwise is to contradict the very words of Christ who said that in the time of harvest it would be "the tares" that are harvested first:

Mat 13:30   Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.   

Those who have already died (after a carnal truth) are already with the Lord! 

Quote from: Doug

Quote from: Chris

But if we claim that "the dead in Christ" are believers who have preceded us in death and it is believers who are resurrected first (both the "dead" and the "living", after a natural application) then Paul's statement clearly contradicts Christ's statement.

So who is harvested/resurrected first? The tares, as Christ said? Or the saints, as many Christians claim that Paul said?

Or how are these two statements not connected?

Here is the interpretation Christ gave to the parable of the tares.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I know who the tares are, Doug. I asked you if the tares are not, indeed, "dead" (after a spiritual truth)? And who it is that Christ said is harvested/gathered "first"?

Is it not "the tares" who are gathered first, according to Christ, and are the tares not "dead" (according to a spiritual, not a carnal, truth)?

Quote from: Doug

Notice that the things gathered out of his kingdom are "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity."

Amen! So are "the tares" (gathered first and gathered to be burned) not those who are "dead" after a spiritual truth? Those who walk in darkness? The children of the wicked one?

Quote from: Doug

Below is an article about tares from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

Lolium temulentum, typically known as darnel or cockle, is an annual plant that forms part of the Poaceae family and part of the Lolium genus. The plant stem can grow up to 1 meter tall, with inflorescence in the ears and purple grain. It grows plentifully in Syria and Israel.

It usually grows in the same production zones as wheat and is considered a weed. The similarity between these two plants is so extensive that in some regions cockle is referred to as "false wheat." It bears a close resemblance to wheat until the ear appears. The ears on the real wheat are so heavy that it makes the entire plant droop downward, but the "false wheat", whose ears are light, stands up straight. The wheat will also appear brown when ripe, whereas the darnel is black.
It parasitizes wheat fields. The French word for darnel is "ivraie" (from Latin "ebriacus"), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also aluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).

The traditional Anglo-Saxon surname "Darnell" comes from those who grew this weed for intoxicatory purposes.

It is also gives its name to another edible grain, aquatic cockle, known as "false rice."

The plant is mentioned in Horace's Satire 2.6 (eaten by the Country mouse while he serves his guest fancier foods) and in the Parable of the Tares in the Gospel of Matthew:

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.  - Matthew 13:30

This is instructive, IMO, especially the idea of tares being called "false wheat." Does this suggest the idea of "phony Christians" to anyone?

There have been "tares" among the "wheat" in every generation since the first century. The Reformers struggled against tares, which threatened to choke the knowledge of the scriptures.

An example of one of the "tares" that flourished for centuries, and that has been "harvested" and burned up, is the notion of a rigid heavenly firmament revolving around the earth each day, carrying the stars. This false belief, widely held for many centuries, and embraced by many of the early church fathers, has been entirely discredited, as foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah 34:4 about the heavens being rolled together as a scroll. The prophecy has come to pass, precisely. The supposed revolutions of the heavens ceased, during the scientific revolution, just like the spindles of a scroll cease rotating when they are rolled together. The rigid heaven of the ancient cosmology and all the planetary spheres have been forever abolished. This also fulfilled the prophecy of Peter, "the heavens shall pass away with great noise."

In the end of the age, "all things that offend" are to be removed from the kingdom by the angels of God. All the flawed interpretations of prophecy, and all delusions will be destroyed! If we defend any of those false opinions, we may get burned too. IMO.

Doug

Good article!  :thumbsup:

We know that the tares need to be separated from the what (just as the goats are separated from the sheep). This article even quotes Mat 13:30.

Who did Christ say is harvested/raised/gathered FIRST?

The tares are gathered first, and "burned". 

what is this burning?  Does it happen while they are physically alive?? 

or is it a post mortem "burning"??

Quote from: Molly on September 30, 2009, 05:41:53 PM

Quote from: ChrisAre you saying that the adoption of sons doesn't take place in this life?

...waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


I think what Paul is talking about here has yet to take place.

That is, it has spiritually taken place [as Paul says--the downpayment] but now our bodies have to be redeemed.



[the] "adoption"

G5206
υἱοθεσία
uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons).


[the] "redemption"

G629
ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.


[of our] "body"

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

So you see this as the physical body? So, in this case, you see it as first the spiritual - then the natural? or you see both as spiritual?

Quote from: Zeek on September 30, 2009, 05:43:47 PM


The tares are gathered first, and "burned". 

what is this burning?  Does it happen while they are physically alive?? 

or is it a post mortem "burning"??

I believe that the lake of fire is here/now.


Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. 

Quote from: ChristSo you see this as the physical body? So, in this case, you see it as first the spiritual - then the natural? or you see both as spiritual?

We start out as natural body, dead spirit.  Then our spirit is born of Spirit.  This is the earnest of our full redemption.



2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.



"earnest"

G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.


Even as we are crossed over from death to life, it is still only the earnest, the downpayment.

The second man is made a quickening spirit.   What do you think will happen when that quickening spirit hits our physical bodies from the inside?  


"quickening" [spirit]

G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.