Do you all think the book of Revelation was written before or after 70 AD? Also, would the assumption that it was written prior to 70 fit better with UR, or does it not really matter?
:cloud9: After :2c:
Since the historical birth date of Jesus can not be verified, how can one be sure what year it was?
If Jesus was born in 4BC, then it occurred in the year 66.
And to me, 70AD means nothing.
I think it's a good question, one I've looked at before and am not positive about. Arguments on both sides, and of course, part of the issue of the question has to do with how much of John's vision are yet future. Futurists apparently often look to Iraneus who gave a later date for the writing, but then he also said Jesus lived until age 50! I think this is some interesting info from the TM Main Page;
-----------------------------------------
Revelation was written before 70 AD
by Greg Kiser
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
1 - The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here.
2 - The second century Syrian version of the book has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.
3 - Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666. (You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible). What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666. This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the one being referred to as the beast and that the change from 666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that very reason. It is nearly impossible to find another person's name in that time frame that would do this!
4 - According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD.
5 - The temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening!
6 - There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time.
7 - The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. Roman emperors are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero. Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while . . Galba, 6 months. If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy.
8 - Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.
9 - What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This would be completely ridiculous. This implies that the beast was living at the time of this writing, thus proving not necessarily the pre-70 AD writing, but definitely the "at hand" time statements of the book.
10 - The 7th king of Revelation 17 is not yet here. If Nero is the 6th, then the book was written before Galba, i.e. before 70 AD.
11 - In Revelation there seems to be only 7 churches in Asia . Historically, there seems to be many more than that after 70 AD as Christianity began to grow very rapidly.
12 - The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.
Quote from: jabcat on January 27, 2012, 08:13:22 AM
3 - Some versions have a few manuscripts that have the number of the beast as 616 instead of the Hebrew 666. (You can find this stated in almost any Study Bible). What is shocking is that using gematria Caesar Nero's name would add up to 616 in those versions, but in Hebrew, 666. This is very strong evidence that Caesar Nero really was the one being referred to as the beast and that the change from 666 to 616 in some manuscripts was intentional for that very reason. It is nearly impossible to find another person's name in that time frame that would do this!
Another bit of proof for a (partly) Hebrew NT. (And alterations because it seems a good thing to do)
3 possible UR connections I see that could be made;
1) Pre 70 AD authorship - all the "coming judgments" have been fulfilled, and the rest is restoration
2) Post 70 AD authorship - coming judgments leave a lot of interpretation and "explaining" to be done (i.e., not eternal hell/LaHaye Left Behind scenario, etc.)
3) It's all internal/spiritual, so date of authorship is of no consequence to the ultimate restoration of all
I think all books were written before 70AD because they reference to Jerusalem as if it still exists.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 28, 2012, 12:04:29 PM
I think all books were written before 70AD because they reference to Jerusalem as if it still exists.
This is what I think also.
CHB
It has to be the earlier date.
Here's the main reason: if Revlation was indeed written in 90 AD (as the Futurist camp insists), it would have most certainly included the destruction of the Temple as part of the text. We have to understand what the Temple meant to the Jewish culture of the time, and that such a turnabout in eventswouldhave surely been reported in Revelation had it occurred.
Also, look to the Olivet Discourse. If it is to be believed, the events of Revelation had to occur previously. Otherwise, Jesus is a false prophet according to the OT.
It can be explained rationally.
j.
The first 4 books are easy. They are about the Ministry period and a short while after.
The letters are about current events. And as you wrote the Temple (and Jerusalem) were still very important to Christians. Christians did attend very often to synagoges. So it would be mentioned.
Jesus also said "...not one stone will remain..." I bet the NT writers loeved to add that extra bit of proof by reporting Jesus predicted 70AD correctly.
What "bothers" me is that the NT is inspired. So what if one of the writers wanted to write about the Temple but the HS didn't inspire them on that part so they didn't write it.
The length of Jesus ministry is debated but lets assume 3 years.
The first four books are so similar I would almost count them as one one.
Is that one short book everything that could be said about 3 years of ministry?
Does it contain all the wise words Jesus ever spoke to the 12?
Personally I think a lot is filtered out.
So perhaps it can be argued that after the resurrection of Jesus God closed the Temple era and because of that no longer mentions it because the attention was shifted to Jesus.
:dontknow:
Revelation is the most difficult book for dating.
Some say for example it's about visions of the future instead of the 1st century.
The size of the described Temple totally different from the Temple that stood then.
There are also many other things that Yeshua did, which if they were to be written, each one,
I suppose even the world would be insufficient for the books that would be written.
"Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. .... "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Jesus opens the revelation standing among the seven churches, holding the presbyteries(stars-shepherds, servant leaders) of those churches in his hand- his eyes a blazing fire, his face shining like the sun and a twpedged sword coming out of his mouth, so at present:
I think the revelation John received on Patmos is, first, a Rosetta Stone for interpreting prophetic understandings about the spiritual reality of the church/body of Christ in this age, with a glimpse into the ages to come."Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches"- Sets the stage/lays the foundation for understanding the prophesy.
I think secondly it is a time transcendant picture book of who we are in Christ, what we are becoming, and how we will participate in the reconciliation of all things as individuals, as the Bride and as the sons of God.(To the one who overcomes I will give...... the one who overcomes will inherit all things....will sit with me on my throne.....will judge the nations.....will judge angels, etc)
Lastly, I think there is some future history prophesy in it...... don't really care much because...
If we don't kno who we are(today) and what God is doing(now) and where we fit in it......history doesnt matter, past or future, we will be "spit out" or we will have "our lampstand(in our generation) removed". In other words, we will not be an active part in the restoration of all things in this age or in the age to come.
I used to think I knew when(between 60 and 90 AD) John wrote it(by my studies), now I don't know..... I think that question is really not revelant to me now- I kno it is important to those who debate over "fulfilled view" or "future fulfillment", but....
I think John's revelation(and all revelation) is primarily a NOW thing. I think the whole Logos is an "oracle". Everything in Revelation is expressed in scriptural pictograms.......often what we "see" is not perceived, what we hear, not "comprehended"-because the Spirit reveals them to the mind of Christ and that mind is "humble, intent on serving" - not High-minded, or puffed up on mysterious understandings. This is the mind that is able to receive the true mysteries and not destroy itself or others by using revelations as weapons, whips and scepters.
IMO These verse bear witness to this:
Be careful how you hear.
Let the ones who have ears to hear, hear what the spirit is saying to the churches.
To him who has(a continually listening ear) more shall be given, to him who has not(a continually listening ear) even that which he has shall be taken away.
Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts(listen> enter the promise; don't listen> stay in the wilderness or go back into captivity).
For this reason, we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a Lamp shing in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
Jesus used "It is written" in destroying the works of the adversary upon the mount of temptation. I think we can do the same, but not through the letter :o)..... only as the "sword of the Spirit, i.e. the sword that comes from the mouth of Jesus in Rev.1:16 and in Isaiah 27 (A very important chapter in understanding John's revelation in my opinion).
This is just the way I see and understand Revelation concerning the time it was written.
#1. these Churches existed at the time Revelation was written and they were Jew's.
#2.John said he was experiencing the the tribulation (Rev. 1:9).
#3. John was an apostle to the Jew's.
#4. (Rev. 1:7) says "every eye shall see him, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM.
This sounds like these things was going to occur then if those who pierced him would wittness these things.
#5. John said in verse 1 that THESE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS.
This sounds like the destruction of Jerusalem hadn't happened yet.
#6. John keeps referring to Jesus as "the Lamb." The sacrificial lamb is an offering that only Israel performed.
#7. John mentions works and overcoming a lot in Revelation, this tells me that John is writing to those of the circumcision.
If we are dead to sin, have died when Christ died, was resurrected when He was resurrected, are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ, what do WE have to overcome? Didn't Christ overcome for us? If we are trying to overcome isn't that saying that Christ didn't do his job and we have to help him?
#8. A lot of referrences of Revelation can be found in the Old Testament.
For example, who are the twenty four elders in chapter 4? You can find them in (Numbers). Chapter 7 is about the tribes of israel.
Maybe there are still parts of Revelation that haven't been fulfilled as yet, I don't know for sure but I think most of it has been fulfilled.
CHB