Someone (who has something in mind - I just don't know what) asked me this; where was Jesus crucified? And does it matter? Then he said "think about it".
I gave what I'd consider the "usual" answer of Golgotha. Anything else occur to anyone?
skullplace..or the 'mind" crown of thorns...painful thorny points piercing the mind.....
or 'thoughts' :dontknow:
Same thought. Place of the skull. Gol- gotha. I was heard Goliath's skull buried there. Giant slain!
I thought the main point was "outside the city" where the refuse of humanity was buried. If the body hadn't been claimed, it would have been thrown in Gehenna.IMO.
Most folks don't know it, but under Roman law, only a family member could claim the body of an executed person, just like today. The fact that Joseph of Arimathea was able to do so, indicates that he was family - in fact, he was Jesus' mother's uncle.
The location of the crucifixion, at least the traditional site, is off. The location pinned down by Ron Wyatt seems too pat in its own way, an outgrowth of the SDA "types & shadows" theology. I don't know why I have been mentioning that so much lately, maybe it's God's way of tapping me on the shoulder to tell me to pay better attention... Anyway, he found a socket in the rock. A crack ran down from the socket into the cave where he says he found the Ark of the Covenant. A black, tarry substance ran from the crack, and was dribbled/sprinkled on the mercy seat: Type meets Antitype. The reader can make of that what they will. There is sufficient text and video material on the www about Ron Wyatt to make up your own mind...
So we have perhaps something to do with the mind, and outside the city. I hear that maybe we don't know where the exact spot is today, but yes, the scrips say Gogotha/place of skull and outside the city - wherever that is exactly.
I think one of the main keys to his questions is, "does it matter?". I think there's a clue/arrow pointing in there somewhere. I believe he's seeing some out-of-the-ordinary connection/interpretation and is testing his theory. :2c:
Thanks so far.
There's so much to be studied, learned about names... I think that the answer to "does it matter?" lies somewhere within the meaning of "Golgotha"... I was reminded of WhiteWings' list of Hebrew idioms and so hurriedly looked through my zillion papers... and also Binged "Hebrew idioms Golgotha" and came up with over 13,000 hits... I did check a couple quickly and will take time to read more carefully tomorrow and post any urls that I think may help us answer "does it matter?"
When I was on a tour of Israel in 1985, our guide was very careful (or so I thought) to indicate whether the places visited were the authentic sites or so called by tradition... One thing that really blessed me was the guide's constant referral to and reading of the pertinent Scripture.
When some of the little old ladies wanted to kiss the ground where Jesus walked... the guide took out his Bible and said... "Let's never forget why Jesus walked on this ground." and very carefully read Matt 1:21 ... she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sin.
I don't think it matters. The problem with the specifics is that it leads to the metaphors which seem to muddy the waters. I remember when the relation between cross and tree came up. Someone hanged on a tree was accursed. All of sudden the cross became a tree, and Christ was cursed. What I found was all the hunt for the specifics took away from the reality of the death: Christ Died, Christ had to die because of me, God sent him for us, and his death was horrendous.
The specifics lead to books and books about why, for example, a dump. I had a pastor who would go every years to Juarez Mexico and help people who lived in the dump. We had all sorts of imagery about dumps, and poverty. I think when we focus on this kind of minutiae we are depriving the story of the message. He died for me, and He died for you. IMO we have to deal with that. Regardless of how awful that truth is, burying it's horror under specifics seems to me somehow ungrateful.
I think Anna's story of the ladies who wanted to kiss the ground where Jesus walked is classic. How much dust has accumulated in the last 2,000 years that even if that was near the point Jesus walked, how far down would were He actually walked be?
I've seen pictures of old tombs found around Jerusalem; they are usually found by someone who has been digging for a bit. Yet somehow, the places Jesus walked are right on top where everyone can get a good look and maybe buy a cast of the footprint at the gift shop.
My 2.5 cents (inflation)
Well as for me I love all the symbolism. It is food for my soul. The serpent shall bruise his heel but He shall crush the serpent's head.
I've recently learned that one of the results of crucifixion is the gathering of water at the lower extremities. Apparently it can discolour the heal, and make it look like a (wait for it) bruise. So, that may not be as symbolic as it first appears.
I'm not opposed to the symbolism, I just don't think it should be used to undermine the real sacrifice and the truly awful price that was paid for our salvation.
Vinebranch said it all for me. :iagree: !00%
I don't think it matters. The problem with the specifics is that it leads to the metaphors which seem to muddy the waters. I remember when the relation between cross and tree came up. Someone hanged on a tree was accursed. All of sudden the cross became a tree, and Christ was cursed. What I found was all the hunt for the specifics took away from the reality of the death: Christ Died, Christ had to die because of me, God sent him for us, and his death was horrendous.
The specifics lead to books and books about why, for example, a dump. I had a pastor who would go every years to Juarez Mexico and help people who lived in the dump. We had all sorts of imagery about dumps, and poverty. I think when we focus on this kind of minutiae we are depriving the story of the message. He died for me, and He died for you. IMO we have to deal with that. Regardless of how awful that truth is, burying it's horror under specifics seems to me somehow ungrateful.
I think Anna's story of the ladies who wanted to kiss the ground where Jesus walked is classic. How much dust has accumulated in the last 2,000 years that even if that was near the point Jesus walked, how far down would were He actually walked be?
I've seen pictures of old tombs found around Jerusalem; they are usually found by someone who has been digging for a bit. Yet somehow, the places Jesus walked are right on top where everyone can get a good look and maybe buy a cast of the footprint at the gift shop.
My 2.5 cents (inflation)
re: does it matter?
Anna's story
...guide said "Let's never forget why Jesus walked this ground" Matt 1:21 ...she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His Name JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sin.
We agree with the let's never forget the reason part.
We just think it's kinda sick to want to kiss dirt because Jesus walked by the spot 2,000 years ago and a lot of dirt later. It is false and misguided worship. Even the apostles wouldn't have done it right after he had walked there. IMO, even if they had wanted too, I believe Jesus would have corrected that false notion. Just like the rediculousness of people actually kissing the sock while it's on the foot of the pope.(kneeling before him to do so.) :Peace2:
http://www.askelm.com/restoring/res011.htm
In regard to this latter role for the Sanhedrin in Bethphage, it should be mentioned that the altar on which the Red Heifer and the sin offerings on the Day of Atonement were burnt to ashes was called the Miphkad Altar. The word Miphkad means "numbering" or "counting" (and in this case it meant counting the heads of persons who were Israelites, firstborn ones, Levites, or Priests). In Hebrew the word "head" is golgolet. Indeed, the place where these "heads" were counted (or numbered) was at the site of the Miphkad (Numbering) Altar just to the west of the village of Bethphage on the Mount of Olives. Because of this, this region on the Mount of Olives became known in New Testament times as Golgotha through the Greek (where heads or the skulls of people were counted in any numbering or census of Israel). 2
In Old Testament times, the Hebrews would have simply said to go to the Miphkad Altar region (the Golgolet Area) to count the heads of people, and in the New Testament period they would have said to go to Golgotba, the place where one gets his head (or, for a dead person, his skull) counted at the times of numbering (or censuses).
So, the village of Bethphage on the Mount of Olives was located just east of the region of Golgotha where people were counted or numbered at or near the Miphkad Altar (the "Numbering Altar") and the place where the Red Heifer and the sin offerings of the Day of Atonement were burnt to ashes. It was in this very region on the Mount of Olives where Jesus was crucified after the Sanhedrin had given their final decision at Bethphage to have him executed for what they considered to be his blasphemy. 3
In a word, all matters involving genealogical or census records of the people of Israel were kept at the library at Bethphage (which was a village exclusively for priests and where the second court of the great Sanhedrin was located). Though Bethphage was reckoned to be an official part of the city of Jerusalem, it was actually situated outside the camp of just east of the summit of the Mount of Olives and a little further east of the Miphkad Altar. This eastern entrance to the camp was considered to be the eastern "gate" into the proper city limits of Jerusalem. There was no actual "gate" that we know of at this eastern entrance. 4
This, however, was where the official "counting" or the "numbering" of Israelites (either living or dead, in some instances) took place. The reasons that such things were done "at the gate" was to fulfill the biblical stipulation that the elders of the land were supposed to sit in the gates (or the entrance) to the cities of the Israelites at certain times of judgment. Recall Proverbs 31:23 which says "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders." Also: "Execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates" (Zechariah 8:16). Thus, the Sanhedrin in the time of Jesus had a second court for decisions involving "counting" or "numbering" (and setting the limits of the city of Jerusalem and the Temple, etc.). This was at the eastern entrance to the camp of Israel. This is why the priest village of Bethphage was built and why the Sanhedrin met in that locale.
The reason the official genealogical records of the nation (and those prime biblical records were the books of Ezra/Nehemiah and Chronicles) were kept in this village of Bethphage was because people who claimed to be Israelites could have their records checked in person at this official place "outside the camp" on the Mount of Olives to see if they were allowed to enter the camp itself or, especially, to enter the Temple. What are the books of Ezra/Nehemiah and Chronicles? These books are basically genealogical lists of Israelites (with appropriate historical events) to show who was an Israelite, a son of David, a Levite or a Priest. All the checking of these matters was accomplished outside the camp of Israel, that is, outside the city of Jerusalem proper and the Temple.
It would have been inappropriate, of course, to have these books available for inspection inside the Temple. How could one who was not sure of his pedigree or ritualistic status have the books which could prove his claim to be an Israelite (or priest, or Levite, or whatever) located within the restricted area itself? Reason demands that such books and records had to be available for inspection and evaluation outside the camp to determine the ritualistic status of the people.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 10, 2013, 03:39:01 PM
We agree with the let's never forget the reason part.
We just think it's kinda sick to want to kiss dirt because Jesus walked by the spot 2,000 years ago and a lot of dirt later. It is false and misguided worship. Even the apostles wouldn't have done it right after he had walked there. IMO, even if they had wanted too, I believe Jesus would have corrected that false notion. Just like the rediculousness of people actually kissing the sock while it's on the foot of the pope.(kneeling before him to do so.) :Peace2:
Actually we do agree on both points: 1) never forget and 2)"sickness" of kissing the ground--it's just that on the second point the guide (and I) chose to use the Scriptures to share our dislike of "rituals".
See it's just all ssoooo cool! Thanks Redhotmagma!
Quote from: jabcat on March 10, 2013, 12:51:33 AM
Someone (who has something in mind - I just don't know what) asked me this; where was Jesus crucified? And does it matter? Then he said "think about it".
I gave what I'd consider the "usual" answer of Golgotha. Anything else occur to anyone?
where was Jesus , the Lamb of God crucified at ? the place being the foundation of the world
faith believing is we are to no longer know Jesus after the flesh , right ?
so the foundation of the world being our NEW LIFE !!
We must stop this pidgeon hole thinking !!
WordNet 3.0
v. place into a small compartment
v. treat or classify according to a mental stereotype
n. a small compartment
n. a specific (often simplistic) category
2Cor 5 11 Because we understand our fearful responsibility to the Lord, we work hard to persuade others. God knows we are sincere, and I hope you know this, too.
12 Are we commending ourselves to you again? No, we are giving you a reason to be proud of us,
so you can answer those who brag about having a spectacular ministry rather than having a sincere heart.
13 If it seems we are crazy, it is to bring glory to God. And if we are in our right minds, it is for your benefit.
14 Either way, Christ's love controls us.[c] Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life.[d] 15 He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.
16 So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! 17 This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!
18 And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. 19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. 20 So we are Christ's ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, "Come back to God!" 21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,[e] so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
we are walking in the Spirit and no sin is being imputed to those whom serve God and are in Christ the NEW LIFE , its a new foundtion being laid down with the HOLY SEED /WORD OF GOD planted firmly in your new heart /Strong's G2602 - katabolē 1) a throwing or laying down
a) the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
b) of the seed of plants and animals
2) a founding (laying down a foundation)
its a new mind of Christ that crushes the serpents head / wisdom of the old world of dust and flesh and literal thinking :dsunny:
Wow! Ok I'm such a babe in all this. I sometimes get so disgusted because I didn't come to this until so late in life. Pardon me while I just can't say anything more than wow rosered. Thanks.
Quote from: Colleen on March 10, 2013, 07:43:28 PM
Wow! Ok I'm such a babe in all this. I sometimes get so disgusted because I didn't come to this until so late in life. Pardon me while I just can't say anything more than wow rosered. Thanks.
Sweet Colleen , When the Holy Spiirit come to any of us , its the right time God appointed it to be !! we can so trust in His perfect work ! Love is the greatest mover and shaker ! its Breathes within us ! there is nothing like it on earth ! :HeartThrob:
AAAAHHHHHHH such awesome stuff here!!!!
I know the feeling Colleen!!! Last night I was saying to Father, "I don't understand how all this works!!!" I was getting frustrated because I want to "see" so badly but I can't. I've come to the conclusion that I'm basically a spiritual 4 year old. I want to do the things my parents and older siblings are doing but I'm too young to actually understand how to do them (like a 4 year old trying to do multiplication for example). So I sit at the table with them while they do it and I scribble out what I think looks like a multiplication problem and show them proudly, but I can tell by the looks and reactions that even though they think I'm cute, it is not at all a real multiplication problem hahaha!! And it frustrates me. But last night He said something akin to, "You don't need to understand how it works, just that it does. That's all you need for now. I will make all things clear to you in time, as you are able and when the time is right." So I have been able to rest in that now instead of getting frustrated. Ahhhhh relief lol, thank You Lord! :cloud9:
How many of us actually know how a computer works? A few. How many can get done what they need to get done without learning anything else about how the computer works? Most all I think.
Analogy accepted. :Chinscratch:
Yeah exactly ded!! Same with driving a car! :thumbsup:
Me too , I dont understand alot , but always had faith the Whatever the Lord does is a perfect work
I remember someone years ago saying we had to much pidgeonhole thinking , and that stuck with me , because I was stuck in a veiw of only thinking one way :sigh:
But
there aways is a breakthough when the Lord does His thing in His way
and everyone is blessed HIS moving/breathing on us and in us all :friendstu:
Well then lomorah, you can be my big sis! :laugh:
Well I'll definitely be your sis but I doubt I'm much "bigger" hahaha!
I guess I am pretty tall, for a two year old... :Chinscratch: