Since coming to know of UR, I've begun to think that being saved isn't an instantaneous result, but rather, being saved is a process by which God perfects us over time. So, considering this, is man continually made righteous (until perfected) on the other side of the grave, after he dies? I'm pretty sure most people will not be perfect before they die, so it would seem that the saving process continues afterwards.
I think part of the reason I began to believe that salvation is a process, rather than an instantaneous happening, is due to this article on the mercifultruth.com website: http://www.mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.htm
It seems to suggest that we are not imparted righteousness (and so instantly become righteous), but rather MADE righteous (over time) through God's grace through faith which he gives to people.
What do you guys think? Do we continue being made righteous after we die? And of course, feel free to object to my thoughts on being saved/being made righteous. I'm open for other ideas, but this seems most true in my mind, as of now.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I believe when we are "incorruptible" then we will be righteous - from the above it sounds like it will happen in an instant at the resurrection. The resurrection would be at different times for the elect and the non-elect, so the elect are made righteous first and then the non-elect later at their judgment.
Thoughts? :dontknow:
Well, the only ones being made righteous on the other side are any that weren't made righteous here for whatever reason. Righteousness isn't holiness. When you embraced His Lordship and the Lordship of His Scriptures, you were made as much the righteousness of God right at that moment as you'll ever be at any time in the future, no matter how many hundreds of quadrillions of years you're talking about. Righteous just means to be in right standing, Biblically, although the English language will try to make it a synonym with holiness though it's not. If you've done what Luke 24, Acts 17, Acts 20, Romans 10, 2Corinthians 5, and numerous other passages say to do about getting your life straightened out with God by repentance and faith in our Lord Jesus (again, consulting the passages I've listed if in doubt that that's how salvation works), then you were delivered from the authority of darkness right then and translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son RIGHT THEN, and it'll never be more than it was RIGHT THEN although there is growth in grace, sanctification, holiness, love towards the men/women of God in your life, and development in every other form of grace as 2Corinthians 8 says. Sanctification, which means to be "set apart," holiness, growth in fruit, a richer prayer life, obedience, and a lot of other things are things that you do grow further and further into based upon knowledge of the Word and the work of the Holy Spirit in your life. But you don't go back and forth between old Adam and last Adam throughout your life and the ages to come, in any other way except for your thinking. Once born again, as 1Peter 1:23 says, it's INCORRUPTIBLE SEED that's on the inside of you. Now, you've just got to learn how to water it with the Word and grow into Him in all things as head of all principality, power, might, dominion, and every name that's named in this world and in every other (Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 3:12-17).
A quicky on "flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom, neither doth the perishable inherit the imperishable." "Flesh" as used in the Gospel, as interpreted for us in John 6:63, is a mindset rather than the opaque to translucent whatever that covers our bones. "The flesh profits nothing, but the Words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life," is what Jesus said. He wasn't saying His physical body profited nothing, otherwise, there goes the Scriptural doctrine of the atonement 'cause He was talking about His flesh or natural inclinations or what He might be tempted to think of the situation rather than the Words the Holy Spirit was having Him to give to others. And the blood reference in "can't inherit the Kingdom" is obviously talking about military might in the context of the Roman world to whom St. Paul was addressing that, otherwise, you've thrown out the New Testament doctrine of the Blood of Christ if it doesn't bring us all things and cancel absolutely any and all of our debts: spiritual, soulish, physical, financial, and social. And therefore, the "perishable not being able to inherit the imperishable" is obviously talking about carnal thinking not being able to stand side by side; the bitter water with the sweet, with the imperishable mindset of the Kingdom and inherit the results of God's ways of doing and being right which are laid out for us in the New Testament for being conformed with the image of Jesus Christ and meeting absolutely every single need around us.
Hey Martin,
So, if we are not being made "righteous" anymore, do you think we will be made more and more holy after we die until we reach perfection?
Here's part of the article which suggested that man is made continually righteous, or accredited righteous, as he does righteousness through the grace of God:
QuoteGRACE IS AS GRACE DOES
By Grace ye are saved! Is that ever true. But, you are about to discover something that the Bible reveals about Grace, that the Christian church has never seen before, even though they read the same book. You are about to see the very foundation of how and why Paul tells the church to work our salvation outwardly.
In the orthodox Christian doctrine we are taught that God's Grace equates to God's ignorance. Many in the Christian church believe that Grace is basically God being nice. It goes like this: in order to get God to be nice to you, and forgive you, obtain grace. After all, according to Evangelicals, we are not saved by works, but faith alone. Jesus was judged in our place, right? Therefore, if you have faith in Jesus, God sees His righteousness, even if you are not. The flesh loves that idea, but it's clearly ANTI-BIBLICAL as this paper will show.
The Bible reveals Grace in its true purpose. Grace comes from the Greek word charis, meaning "good will, favor, benefit" etc. This grace is attained by faith in Jesus. The Bible says that "we have access into grace by faith" (Romans 5:2). Are you with me so far? Are you ready for a revelation?
Titus 2:11-14
For the Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches (paideuo) us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to DO what is good.
The word "teaching" in the above verse is translated from the Greek word paideuo meaning "to chasten."Strong's Dictionary defines it this way:
paideuo (pa-hee-dyoo-o)
to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach."
How many times have you been taught that by Grace, the Lord will NOT chasten someone for sin, because they believe in Jesus? Christian doctrine is founded on that idea. It is wrong and not at all what the Bible says. See how "paideuo" is used in other contexts and you will understand what Paul was really teaching about Grace:
Hebrews 12:5-7
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth (paiduo), and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Rev 3:18-19
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten (paiduo): be zealous therefore, and repent.
2 Cor 6:9
as unknown, yet we are known by all; as though we were dead, but, as you see, we live on. Although punished (paiduo), we are not killed;
Did you know that God is so good and so merciful, that by His Grace, He will punish, rebuke and chasten you when you really need it? That probably doesn't sound too nice. Keep reading. We need to start considering God's mercy-by-Grace in line with the Bible. The carnal man sees "mercy" in God leaving him alone. God sees mercy from On High, in freeing man from that flesh. If God left the carnal man dead in sin without chastising him, that would be showing a lack of mercy. This process is called "deliverance from sin."
God does not expect instant perfection. Nobody is perfect. John says "If we say we are without sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8). If we were perfect, God would find no need for chastisement. Paul said "For sin shall not have dominion over you." (Romans 6:14). The Gospel is about deliverance from slavery to a carnal mind not instant perfection. The Gospel is about freedom! The question is, do Christians really desire that kind of freedom? Do they desire it enough to desperately cry out for it?
1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as (God) is righteous.
That's the New Testament, mind you. It is not a very popular thing to say in today's Evangelical Christian churches. Nobody wants to hear that you cannot be righteous without doing it. No preacher will say "people who do good are righteous." They say they are righteous just by believing in Jesus. The question must be asked of all who claim to be Christ's followers: do you want to be free to sin, or freed from it?
Christians would rather believe that God gives them Grace by declaring them righteous and perfect because of their faith. Actually being pure is not taught as essential to the Gospel, but it's nice if you can. In today's church, preachers say that we are righteous by our faith alone, not by what we do. Wrong. John says, "do not be deceived" by that. John says "he who does righteousness is righteous, even as God is righteous."
He was very concerned about a deception floating around the churches, in whispered theories and vain teachings: That because Christ died for the world, even them who have not had a changed heart are still declared righteous by God, as long as they have faith. Yet, God says "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isa 5:20).
Common sense dictates that if God has already declared someone pure, this would negate any necessity to chastise us for sinning.
Their doctrines negate the purpose of Grace. Just because people believe in Jesus, does God himself abandon his above words by calling them "good," and "sweet" and "light" even if they work evil, and bitterness and abide in the darkness instead? No. The reason we fall into deception is because we misunderstand Grace. We are taught that grace is God's mercy in not punishing sin.
But, from God's own mouth: as many as He loves, He rebukes and chastens. Such grace. Yes, that is part of how God saves us by grace, that "we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world," By CHASTENING the sin right out of us, that we may be "eager to do what is good!"
Do not misunderstand, Grace is not chastisement itself. It's God's goodness. Jesus Christ, by God's goodness of grace, wishes to "purify to himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." by faith in Him. Chastening is a big part of that. You tell me, why would God need to chasten anyone if Jesus Christ's righteousness was already "credited to his account?"
Acts 15:8
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
God does not LOOK the other way. By His Grace, he PUTS sin away. If God does not see our sin - because He can only see Christ on the Cross - how then can God chasten us, rebuke us, scourge us, so that we can be freed from sin?
John 1:29
The next day John (the baptist) seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Here is where the orthodox Christian church spirals further downward in its understanding of Jesus Christ's purpose. Let's look at it with a child's logic: If sin is still there, is it taken away? Of course not! If sin is there, IT'S STILL THERE. But if it is taken away, IT'S GONE. Pretty darn simple, huh? If sin is chastised out of us, by Grace, does it remain? Or, through chastisement is it taken away?
But, the church believes that since Christ died on the Cross, Jesus took the punishment, and now God cannot see our sins. He only sees the blood of Jesus. They think that is Grace. In the Bible, we see clearly that God's Grace chastises us to live godly lives, and to be zealous (hungering) for good works in Him.
Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Look very closely at what John says "the Lamb who taketh (TAKES) away the sin of the world." Jesus TAKES (not took) away the sin of the world. It is present tense. It is a continuing process of Jesus taking our sins away by his Grace.
Good questions Tim, good posts Martin. :thumbsup:
Quote from: legoman on June 19, 2009, 05:56:04 AM
I believe when we are "incorruptible" then we will be righteous - from the above it sounds like it will happen in an instant at the resurrection.
KJV
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
CJB
1 Corinthians 15:52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.
YLT
1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:
Lego,
I checked a few translations and all give me a small difference in understanding.
All translations seem to agree that the raising of the dead is a process that takes only half a second.
But the last part of the verses read a little different for me.
",and.....changed"
What does "and" mean? -> sounds like an afterthought. Like "and this will also happen"
What does "changed" mean? -> The way I read it depends on the translation.
KJV and we shall be changed
- sounds like a group that speaks about the dead and adds that they will be changed too.
- changed into what? Aren't the incorruptible yet?
- According Strong incorruptible just means immortal.. Immortals can be wicked to.
- The and seperates the 2 parts of the verses. For me that means there is no certainty the change will be in a blink of an eye.
- The only thing in a blink of an eye that is sure for me is the dead being made immortal.
CJB and we too will be changed.
- The word too in this translation seems to say the group that speaks about the dead will be made immortal too.
- Of course it can be argued that 'we' includes both groups. I don't read it that way.
YLT and we -- we shall be changed
- This translation is the most different from KJV
- For me it reads as: The dead will recieve immortality and we (the group that speaks this verse) will get something else (change - Obama? :laughing7:)
Well just a thought of someone who learned his English from the Dukes of Hazard :laughing7:
...for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, ..
--Rev 1
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
...And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
--Acts 9
Heb 12
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,...
27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 13
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hi Tim , and all .
Ater reading Romans 5 we are made righteous by the Cross of Jesus Christ that act of God through His only begotten Son is the open SHOW that we are made righteous by Faith through HIM .
what does it mean than to be joined to Christ and be a part of His Body ?
and not counting our flesh bodies alive anymore to sin like Abraham as our example . :icon_flower:
What does it mean to be dead to the World and alive to God ?
For me it is to Live the rest our days in our new wineskins :thumbsup: being more spiritual and being led by the Spirit of God that is holy /pure
that is easier said than done to me
because we are still subject to evil and the lusts of our flesh
Paul still struggled still with this body of death /sin in Romans Chapter seven and eight with undergoing his own body of death/sin =[error is the result ] even after knowing and being apprehened by God /Christ to do the will/desire of the Father
so to me it is no easy feat but pressing on into it by Faith in the Lord sure does make a difference as Paul declares this fact and hope within him ,
now Jesus told us that the kingdom was pressing and narrowing on into it by the Law till He come on the scene and Jesus told us plain that His yoke/ joining as a team effort was easy and light because of what He was doing and was sent to do .. making it easy or should i say easier for us to enter into that REST /SABBATH [complete/perfect] Day/time in His body/ Him being the Head leading us , we no longer lead but Follow in the Body of Christ /Life that is eternal
I have been quiet the last couple of days because we buried our 17 year old neighbour girl yesterday she was ravaged with cancer in one year 365 days she went from a vibrant beautiful child , a normal teen , who did not go to junior prom this year , but fought just to live , she confessed in the end she was ready to be with Jesus now and wanted to go Home!
this journey we are traveling has many broad paths, that leaves us open prey for evil and of course thoughts and feelings of defeat at times , struggles of our faith, even questioning what the will of God is and certainly the fairness of why some suffer so great a sacrifice in this life and how really short a time we are here in this body of death , undergoing transition and change in every aspect and fiber of our being .
to me I find it easy to say and very hard to do , that is stay in the Spirit and Joy in the Lord and have His peace at all times
I feel we are going in and out of the Spirit and Life in Christ , till we go out no more :HeartThrob:
for some they are already perfect/complete in Christ even as they are not flesh and blood so much anymore as they are as spiritual being as Jesus Christ is as He walked this earth at one time as a man but was sooooooooo much more than that , being born and concieved in the Holy Ghost with Mary /a woman born under Law is more of a spiritual truth than the natural fact to me anyways , this is also how we come into it as well and go out of this world as well , same as he did , our excellent example and open show / revelation .....
Ps , I think we have to examine ourselves like Paul mentions and look within and see if we are are growing in truth and grace and are more spiritual a being than flesh and blood/carnal anylonger . the Lord is so faithful that way , to keep us and protect us from the evil that this world is ruled by , when Jesus rules the heart we have alot to be thankful for and praise God for , declare this as our Truth and life and why we still have Hope and Glory in the Lord .
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
are we walking a steady pace in Spirit back home once again .. :icon_flower:
Hi Tim B,
I actually wrote the article you quoted, so I can give some insight as to what I was talking about.
Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The Holy Spirit is given to us to as the "earnest of our inheritance" not as the FULL inheritance. This is why some are given gifts and some are not given other gifts as revealed in 1 Corinthians 12. Jesus had the Spirit "without measure" but we are given the Spirit in earnest of our inheritance, where we will be FULLY empowered and perfected.
The "aionios life" which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is given to MAKE us righteous, for as Roman's 6 shows that whoever is DEAD is FREE (dikaioo) from sin. The same word "dikaioo" is used in Romans 5 when talking about "justification." We Christians were taught from childhood to think about "justification" as being something that God considers us to be, even if we have not been yet MADE to be dead to sin through sanctification. But actually what Paul is talking about is that justification occurs through the death of baptism into the Cross and resurrection to a renewed life. That word dikaioo is the same word for "righteousness."
Paul says that to be dikaioo/justified/righteous is something we gain through DEATH to sin. You got the point right Tim, salvation is is a lifelong process UP TO the point of "the redemption of the purchased possession" by which our process will be complete.
We tend to confuse the process of death unto dikaioo with the concept of reconciliation but the Bible makes a distinct difference and reveals the method.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
The death of the son reconciled us to God, HOWEVER, salvation is MORE than reconciliation and it occurs "through His Life". That is the daily process of salvation up until the "redemption of the purchased possession" BTW, we ARE that purchased possession. Edit to add: The word "Redemption" (of the purchased possession) is in the sense of Christ coming and claiming his followers, when the Lord gathers up and claims his possession, and His glory is revealed to the word through the Sons of God. Basically Paul is telling us that we have the Spirit to lead us into salvation through our lives to the point that Christ comes to claim his Bride and at that point His work of salvation from sin will be completed in them.
Quote from: Seth on June 19, 2009, 09:09:56 PM
I actually wrote the article you quoted, so I can give some insight as to what I was talking about.
Oh wow! You are the Seth from mercifultruths.com?! Your site has touched me... loved the articles. They helped my understanding in several ways.
Just to let you know I have pasted your site link all over the comments section on several of the more prominent "hell videos" on youtube! Noticed any increase in traffic?
Legoman
LOL yeah, I get some haters, and some people have been helped alot. Thanks legoman. I am glad you were blessed.
Quote from: Seth on June 19, 2009, 09:37:28 PM
LOL yeah, I get some haters, and some people have been helped alot. Thanks legoman. I am glad you were blessed.
I notice you reference bible-truths.com and iswasandwillbe - both amazing sites as well.
What I like about yours though is it is a really good INTRO to the topic. It seems more newbie friendly. bible-truths or iswasandwillbe can be overwhelming to a newbie - sometimes I think people will get turned off before they hear the full message. Good job on your "straight to the point" articles.
Yeah that was the idea. When coming to the truth of UR, there were so many holes to plug and it was very stressful. So I created MT to be very newbie friendly in the sense that I wanted to anticipate common questions and answer them as I had learned over time, but in one place so they didn't have to stress like I did. That was a hard time.
The revelations I had that are posted on MT were actually things I had learned through prayer and conversations here on the old version of the TM forum.
The Lord Jesus is so wonderful! The fact that we can have HIM in our lives every day of lives--it's such an unbelievable blessing.
Who would reject him? Who would not want this?
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground:
--Isa 53
Psalm 22:31
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
QuoteWho would reject him? Who would not want this?
Sinners. :laughing7:
That's why Paul had to be "apprehended" by Jesus
Quote from: Seth on June 19, 2009, 09:58:06 PM
QuoteWho would reject him? Who would not want this?
Sinners. :laughing7:
That's why Paul had to be "apprehended" by Jesus
Yes, well that's the default setting I guess. They don't know what they are missing. It's such a shame.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. --John 3
Hey, where is the "amen" sign emoticon. :laughing7:
Anyway, Molly, amen :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on June 19, 2009, 10:11:35 PM
Hey, where is the "amen" sign emoticon. :laughing7:
(http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:nxEq1zDO0cVVzM:http://www.hyundai-forums.com/style_emoticons/default/amen.gif)
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:TvwkIhLeTFc1VM:http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj108/highdesertgemini/hdgsmileys/amen.jpg)
A ha!
Quote from: Seth on June 19, 2009, 09:43:44 PM
Yeah that was the idea. When coming to the truth of UR, there were so many holes to plug and it was very stressful. So I created MT to be very newbie friendly in the sense that I wanted to anticipate common questions and answer them as I had learned over time, but in one place so they didn't have to stress like I did. That was a hard time.
Just wondering; how many hate mails you recieve monthly?
Question about your "Pertaining to" examples. What if the name is Ian? :winkgrin:
I like the layout of your site. Not flashy and easy on the eyes. (Unlike the standard arsonist site)
It's actually not too bad. I mostly get people who either agree, and some who aren't sure still and have more questions. But occasionally I get the stinker. But I practice Titus 3:10 faithfully and it results in peace. It's more like one every 4 or 5 months. I don't get as many emails as L. Ray Smith.
I guess it would be Ianian? haha. Or a Greek party host would be hostios. That would be the Greeklish version.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2009, 11:43:36 PM
(Unlike the standard arsonist site)
LOL some sites make me feel like I am being roasted alive just by viewing them!
25Then king Darius wrote unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth;
Peace be multiplied unto you.
26 I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.
27He delivereth and rescueth, and he worketh signs and wonders in heaven and in earth, who hath delivered Daniel from the power of the lions.
28So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.
--Daniel 6
We have come to understand even the beginning doctrines of the Christian faith have been omitted and distorted. What the AV calls "resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment," (Hb 1:2) are significant examples. Neither Scripture or informed reason can support the idea that a God of Whom it is written that He is love could ceaselessly torture for ever countless sentient beings of His own creating. Not only is He more righteous and certainly more good than that, so also is there more than accepting an idea of imputed righteousness through the death of Christ. There is a prize to obtain for those who would apprehend Him.
"Now others are flogged, not anticipating deliverance, that they may be happening upon a better resurrection." (Hb 11:35, CLV) Except for "come out-ers," I never hear any mention of desiring or striving for a better resurrection. Paul says there was one thing he was doing (Php 3) that we should copy him in: to be found in Christ without his own righteousness, that by any means possible he would attain to the out. resurrection out from among the dead. It seems this is either superior to or something of the first resurrection which is for the Overcomers, not just believers. The distinction is something beyond what Jesus defines as "those who did the good" and "those who committed the evil," (cf., Jn 5:28-29) though it is to be presumed that those qualifying would also be those doing good. Now this is certainly not common teaching, even though it is part of our foundation, of the elementary principles of the oracles of God. (cf., Hb 6:1-3)
What this amounts to is the basic nature of God and the essentials of our partaking of the Divine nature is not being taught in the brothels of Babylon. This comes as no real surprise to those who have spent time discerning the difference between those in institutional cages and those pressing into spiritual reality. But, for millions professing faith in Jesus, when these simple truths are unfolded to their understanding it is so shocking they are ordinarily unable to distinguish it from error, joining the adversary in in slandering God's bearers of good news.
I say this because, whatever aspect of the Divine attributes are on display, our conformity to the image (or form,) and the likeness (or similitude,) must continue until there remains to us no promise remaining of God's rest unfulfilled. That is not a necessity from God's viewpoint. There are lesser ranks into which increasingly larger numbers of humanity will settle out. But for those who can hear the call, who have been taught the truth as it is in Jesus, there is a striving to enter into rest, the finishing work of God, until the consummation is attained.
Does this continue on the other side of the veil? If that is where you find yourself. That is how I understand Scripture when it says, "Ye are come unto...God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Hb 12:22-23ff.) The development of our spirits must continue beyond this life if our spirits are to be perfected. In many cases they are atrophied and, at the least, immature. To resurrect implies some participation on the part of it the partakers. Paul understood the spirit apart from the body to be able to experience things seen and heard and heard in Paradise. "And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise..." (2 Co 12: 3-4) It is written of Jesus that He was, "...put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..." (1 Pt 3:18-19)
From the other side of the veil Jesus participated in His own resurrection. The only way He could personally have power to take His life again once He was dead would be to function as a spirit from the other side of the veil. Not only does it say the Spirit and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus said, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (Jn 10:17-18, AV)
Jesus also taught that those who are dead would believe in Him. He knew the word spirit and could have inserted it as a modifier in His statement to that effect, but He didn't, though many insert it for Him so that His teaching would fit their limited doctrine. "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn 11:25-26) The word, lifted out of its context, that, "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after (meta: "with") that the judgement" in no way says that death determines our destiny, or that there is no more advance as spirits without bodies. Jonah died and went to hell for ever and it was from there that God heard and answered his prayer, bringing him back to life that he should fulfill his assignment to the Ninevites. Among the many variations of doctrine that exist in Christians, this understanding, that the Potter continues to form us us after death, is the only change needed to come to also, "...trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. " (1 Ti 4:10, AV)
your brother, James Rohde
:thumbsup:
good read love the verses you brought out too bro James ...... :HeartThrob:
thanks for reminding me :winkgrin:
Quote from: Seth on June 19, 2009, 09:09:56 PM
Hi Tim B,
I actually wrote the article you quoted, so I can give some insight as to what I was talking about.
Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The Holy Spirit is given to us to as the "earnest of our inheritance" not as the FULL inheritance. This is why some are given gifts and some are not given other gifts as revealed in 1 Corinthians 12. Jesus had the Spirit "without measure" but we are given the Spirit in earnest of our inheritance, where we will be FULLY empowered and perfected.
The "aionios life" which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is given to MAKE us righteous, for as Roman's 6 shows that whoever is DEAD is FREE (dikaioo) from sin. The same word "dikaioo" is used in Romans 5 when talking about "justification." We Christians were taught from childhood to think about "justification" as being something that God considers us to be, even if we have not been yet MADE to be dead to sin through sanctification. But actually what Paul is talking about is that justification occurs through the death of baptism into the Cross and resurrection to a renewed life. That word dikaioo is the same word for "righteousness."
Paul says that to be dikaioo/justified/righteous is something we gain through DEATH to sin. You got the point right Tim, salvation is is a lifelong process UP TO the point of "the redemption of the purchased possession" by which our process will be complete.
We tend to confuse the process of death unto dikaioo with the concept of reconciliation but the Bible makes a distinct difference and reveals the method.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
The death of the son reconciled us to God, HOWEVER, salvation is MORE than reconciliation and it occurs "through His Life". That is the daily process of salvation up until the "redemption of the purchased possession" BTW, we ARE that purchased possession. Edit to add: The word "Redemption" (of the purchased possession) is in the sense of Christ coming and claiming his followers, when the Lord gathers up and claims his possession, and His glory is revealed to the word through the Sons of God. Basically Paul is telling us that we have the Spirit to lead us into salvation through our lives to the point that Christ comes to claim his Bride and at that point His work of salvation from sin will be completed in them.
Wow! I didn't know that was you who wrote that! I really enjoyed it! :bigGrin: So, the "redemption of the purchased possession" is the point in which we are made perfect through Christ?
Thanks for the input everybody, and thanks for your extended reply reFORMer/James, I very much enjoyed it!
Here's an interesting article I stumbled upon.
35[Some] women received again their dead by a resurrection. Others were tortured ]to death with clubs, refusing to accept release [offered on the terms of denying their faith], so that they might be resurrected to a better life. [I Kings 17:17-24; II Kings 4:25-37.]
--Heb 11
1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
Obtaining a Better Resurrection
Gregory Koukl
Why do some Christians suffer more than others? Greg goes to Hebrews 11 and I Peter 4 for one answer to this problem.
There are times in the Old Testament when God does not rescue His righteous from destruction and He allows them to perish. The book of Hebrews Chapter 11 has an account of some of those times.
Why do some Christians suffer and others don't. I guess I'd have to say that all Christians suffer as human beings and as Christians to some measure. But Christians suffer in different measures and so the question is: Why does God allow a different measurement of suffering and why does He allow one person to suffer much more than another person? I can't answer this specific question because I don't know what is in the mind of God regarding those issues. Why me and not them?
By the same token you can ask why do some people have it a lot better than others? Why do some people seem to get everything and have everything go their way and others seem to run into barricades all the time? That's another one I can't answer for the same reason, I don't know God's mind on this with regards to individuals.
But if you look at Hebrews Chapter 11 it talks about the nature of faith, which is trust and confidence in God's capability to take things where He wants them to go; and the writer of Hebrews talks about different people that entrusted themselves to God, some of whom experienced miraculous deliverance. In fact, I think Daniel is mentioned here indirectly in verse 33 where it says that by faith some conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises and shut the mouths of lions--referring certainly here to Daniel. But then it goes on in verse 35, and I think this is a very, very important verse in Scripture. It's the et al . Verse 35 says, "Women receive back their dead by resurrection and others [ et al ] were tortured, not accepting their release in order that they might obtain a better resurrection. And others experienced mocking and scourging and, yes, also chains. In imprisonment they were stoned, they were sawed in two, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword," etc. and you can read the rest. It shows that faith works in both circumstances, and God is working in both circumstances to accomplish whatever His goals are. Some people get rescued others don't, but God is involved in both and faith is involved in both.
Now we have a little hint here in verse 35 as to why that might be the case. It says, "Some were tortured not accepting their release in order that they might obtain a better resurrection." Let's talk about that for a quick moment. How is it that someone can obtain a better resurrection? Well, Paul tells Timothy that physical exercise profits little. To those of you who are working real hard to get your body in shape, Paul says, Well, you know, it's all right. But godliness is a means of great gain, for it holds a promise not only for the present life but also for the life to come.
So it's like you have two bodies, right? You have a spiritual body and you have a physical body. You can pump iron and get your physical body in shape and Paul says, Ho hum. But if you want to get your spiritual body in shape, whatever that means, he calls it "godliness that holds a promise for the life to come," which would be the resurrection. One thing that I think is safe to infer from that verse, though we are not sure what is entailed in the life to come, is there does seem to be levels of growth and maturity in that life, and there are rewards, and some people get more than others. Jesus talks about different rewards for different people for different things that they have accomplished, and it seems by this comment here that there are also different levels of spiritual fitness in the life to come. That's why Paul says godliness holds a promise not just for this age but also for the life to come.
My inference is that if you become spiritually fit in this life, that fitness carries over into the next life, and I suspect it carries over and accomplishes something in the next life that you will not be able to accomplish for yourself in the next life. I think this suggests--and I could be wrong on this--that when you are in the resurrection you can't catch up to somebody else who developed spiritually more than you did in this life. This is why Paul is encouraging you to develop spiritually in this life.
What does this term "better resurrection" mean? Well, it seems from other passages that there is a suggestion that the quality of spirituality, the fitness of our souls, in the after life, in the resurrection, is somehow commensurate with the spiritual exercise that we do in this life. This is why Paul made the comment there to Timothy about physical exercise vs. spiritual exercise, which he calls godliness.
When it comes to this phrase "obtaining a better resurrection" I suspect what that means is that because they were allowed to suffer for their faith their spiritual selves were being built up and strengthened and increased, brought to a deeper or a richer maturity. Paul talks about this in other passages, as well, when he talks about his physical body as wearing down or being beaten up. But his spiritual man, his inner man, is being built up and is flourishing. So it looks like God gives opportunities through suffering to increase the flourishing of our spiritual selves.
This is, by the way, almost the universal testimony of Christians who have survived deep personal conflict and pain and suffering. They reflect on it and they know intuitively that what has been accomplished, as God has worked through them, is the deepening of their spiritual nature and an enrichment and maturing of their inner selves, their inner man, and they wouldn't want to exchange that for anything, even if it meant that they wouldn't have to go through the pain that they went through.
This allows us to look at our trials and tribulations not as a curse, but as a grace because God is giving us an opportunity to grow in the inner man in a way that will have eternal implications and consequences--a kind of growth that we wouldn't have been able to have if He didn't allow us to go through this, and a kind of growth we wouldn't have been able to catch up with in the after life. It's a one shot deal in these circumstances, and I suspect that this is why we are encouraged in the Scriptures to engage suffering, to embrace it and trust God and live godly lives through the process. Peter says in 1 Peter 4, "I believe that for those who suffer according to the will of God we are to entrust ourselves to a faithful Creator in doing what is right." Maybe this is an answer to the question.
One of the reasons that some Christians go through more difficulty than others is God is allowing them an opportunity to do meaningful spiritual exercise in this life so as to build up their spiritual bodies, that they will be enriched in the life to come in a way that they couldn't be enriched unless they had dealt with this in a godly manner in faith in this life.
Quote from: Tim B on June 20, 2009, 06:52:41 AMWow! I didn't know that was you who wrote that! I really enjoyed it! :bigGrin: So, the "redemption of the purchased possession" is the point in which we are made perfect through Christ?
I'm really glad you were blessed by it. I know I was blessed by those who God put in my path to help me see better. Yes, the "redemption of the purchased possession" is why we have the earnest of the inheritance. Paul describes it here:
1 Timothy 4:6-8
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
And in greater detail here:
Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be that we suffer with him,
that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings
of this present time are not worthy to be compared with
the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature (Creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also,
which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Peter mentions it too:
1 Peter 5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ,
and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Quote from: Sethwaiting for the adoption, ...
24 For we are saved by hope:
That is interesting--we are saved by hope. What do you think that means?
Partially, that we live our lives differently, make different choices, even experience joy because of the great hope we have?
Psalm 38:15
For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.Hope is so important that it is one of the names of God--Theos elpis--God of hope. Paul tells us that our hope is given to us through the Holy Spirit.
'He that depends on the true God has laid all tangible things aside and lives by naked hope.'
--Martin Luther
13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.--Rom 15
I think you hit on it Molly. We are saved by hope in the sense that our hopes put us in race that we run.
1 John 3:2-3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in him, purifleth himself even as He is pure.
How are we 'changed' We will ALL POSSESS THE FREE GIFT
what is it? IT IS THE VERY NATURE OF CHRIST AND OUR
FATHER THAT WE WILL BE GIVEN..
IT IS OUR INHERITANCE AS HIS CHILDREN THAT WE RECEIVE
AS WELL AS A CORRUPTION FREE BODY..
If HE willed to make MAN in HIS OWN IMAGE....
then WHO can resist HIS expressed WILL
that has ALWAYS BEEN HIS GOAL AND PLAN
FROM THE BEGINNING
Now,we KNOW...THAT HE WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY
TO ANOTHER..SO...the Glorious Freedom of the SONS OF GOD
are just that...SONS OF GOD BEARING HIS GLORY...
FREE FROM SIN....PERFECT. OF ONE BODY,GOD'S
the Father and I are ONE.......
John 14:20 (King James Version)
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
:cloud9: Amen James and Sheila........ :thumbsup: