Continuing the To Be Made Righteous on the Other Side?

[Molly]

 25Then king Darius wrote unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth;

Peace be multiplied unto you.

26 I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.

27He delivereth and rescueth, and he worketh signs and wonders in heaven and in earth, who hath delivered Daniel from the power of the lions.

28So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

--Daniel 6

[reFORMer]

We have come to understand even the beginning doctrines of the Christian faith have been omitted and distorted.  What the AV calls "resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment," (Hb 1:2) are significant examples.  Neither Scripture or informed reason can support the idea that a God of Whom it is written that He is love could ceaselessly torture for ever countless sentient beings of His own creating.  Not only is He more righteous and certainly more good than that, so also is there more than accepting an idea of imputed righteousness through the death of Christ.  There is a prize to obtain for those who would apprehend Him.

"Now others are flogged, not anticipating deliverance, that they may be happening upon a better resurrection." (Hb 11:35, CLV)  Except for "come out-ers," I never hear any mention of desiring or striving for a better resurrection.  Paul says there was one thing he was doing (Php 3) that we should copy him in:  to be found in Christ without his own righteousness, that by any means possible he would attain to the out. resurrection out from among the dead.  It seems this is either superior to or something of the first resurrection which is for the Overcomers, not just believers.  The distinction is something beyond what Jesus defines as "those who did the good" and "those who committed the evil," (cf., Jn 5:28-29) though it is to be presumed that those qualifying would also be those doing good.  Now this is certainly not common teaching, even though it is part of our foundation, of the elementary principles of the oracles of God. (cf., Hb 6:1-3)

What this amounts to is the basic nature of God and the essentials of our partaking of the Divine nature is not being taught in the brothels of Babylon.  This comes as no real surprise to those who have spent time discerning the difference between those in institutional cages and those pressing into spiritual reality.  But, for millions professing faith in Jesus, when these simple truths are unfolded to their understanding it is so shocking they are ordinarily unable to distinguish it from error, joining the adversary in in slandering God's bearers of good news.

I say this because, whatever aspect of the Divine attributes are on display, our conformity to the image (or form,) and the likeness (or similitude,) must continue until there remains  to us no promise remaining of God's rest unfulfilled.  That is not a necessity from God's viewpoint.  There are lesser ranks into which increasingly larger numbers of humanity will settle out.  But for those who can hear the call, who have been taught the truth as it is in Jesus, there is a striving to enter into rest, the finishing work of God, until the consummation is attained.

Does this continue on the other side of the veil?  If that is where you find yourself.  That is how I understand Scripture when it says, "Ye are come unto...God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect..." (Hb 12:22-23ff.)  The development of our spirits must continue beyond this life if our spirits are to be perfected.  In many cases they are atrophied and, at the least, immature.  To resurrect implies some participation on the part of it the partakers.  Paul understood the spirit apart from the body to be able to experience things seen and heard and heard in Paradise.  "And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise..." (2 Co 12: 3-4)  It is written of Jesus that He was, "...put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..." (1 Pt 3:18-19)

From the other side of the veil Jesus participated in His own resurrection.  The only way He could personally have power to take His life again once He was dead would be to function as a spirit from the other side of the veil.  Not only does it say the Spirit and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus said, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (Jn 10:17-18, AV)

Jesus also taught that those who are dead would believe in Him.  He knew the word spirit and could have inserted it as a modifier in His statement to that effect, but He didn't, though many insert it for Him so that His teaching would fit their limited doctrine.  "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn 11:25-26)  The word, lifted out of its context, that, "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after (meta: "with") that the judgement" in no way says that death determines our destiny, or that there is no more advance as spirits without bodies.  Jonah died and went to hell for ever and it was from there that God heard and answered his prayer, bringing him back to life that he should fulfill his assignment to the Ninevites.  Among the many variations of doctrine that exist in Christians, this understanding, that the Potter continues to form us us after death, is the only change needed to come to also, "...trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. " (1 Ti 4:10, AV)

your brother, James Rohde

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:

good read   love the verses  you brought out too bro James ...... :HeartThrob:
thanks for reminding me  :winkgrin:

[Tim B]

Hi Tim B,
I actually wrote the article you quoted, so I can give some insight as to what I was talking about.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit is given to us to as the "earnest of our inheritance" not as the FULL inheritance. This is why some are given gifts and some are not given other gifts as revealed in 1 Corinthians 12. Jesus had the Spirit "without measure" but we are given the Spirit in earnest of our inheritance, where we will be FULLY empowered and perfected.

The "aionios life" which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is given to MAKE us righteous, for as Roman's 6 shows that whoever is DEAD is FREE (dikaioo) from sin. The same word "dikaioo" is used in Romans 5 when talking about "justification." We Christians were taught from childhood to think about "justification" as being something that God considers us to be, even if we have not been yet MADE to be dead to sin through sanctification. But actually what Paul is talking about is that justification occurs through the death of baptism into the Cross and resurrection to a renewed life. That word dikaioo is the same word for "righteousness."

Paul says that to be dikaioo/justified/righteous is something we gain through DEATH to sin. You got the point right Tim, salvation is is a lifelong process UP TO the point of "the redemption of the purchased possession" by which our process will be complete.

We tend to confuse the process of death unto dikaioo with the concept of reconciliation but the Bible makes a distinct difference and reveals the method.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

The death of the son reconciled us to God, HOWEVER, salvation is MORE than reconciliation and it occurs "through His Life". That is the daily process of salvation up until the "redemption of the purchased possession" BTW, we ARE that purchased possession. Edit to add: The word "Redemption" (of the purchased possession) is in the sense of Christ coming and claiming his followers, when the Lord gathers up and claims his possession, and His glory is revealed to the word through the Sons of God. Basically Paul is telling us that we have the Spirit to lead us into salvation through our lives to the point that Christ comes to claim his Bride and at that point His work of salvation from sin will be completed in them.

Wow! I didn't know that was you who wrote that! I really enjoyed it! :bigGrin: So, the "redemption of the purchased possession" is the point in which we are made perfect through Christ?

[Tim B]

Thanks for the input everybody, and thanks for your extended reply reFORMer/James, I very much enjoyed it!

[Molly]

Here's an interesting article I stumbled upon.



35[Some] women received again their dead by a resurrection. Others were tortured ]to death with clubs, refusing to accept release [offered on the terms of denying their faith], so that they might be resurrected to a better life. [I Kings 17:17-24; II Kings 4:25-37.]

--Heb 11



1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.



Obtaining a Better Resurrection

Gregory Koukl

Why do some Christians suffer more than others? Greg goes to Hebrews 11 and I Peter 4 for one answer to this problem.


There are times in the Old Testament when God does not rescue His righteous from destruction and He allows them to perish. The book of Hebrews Chapter 11 has an account of some of those times.
Why do some Christians suffer and others don't. I guess I'd have to say that all Christians suffer as human beings and as Christians to some measure. But Christians suffer in different measures and so the question is: Why does God allow a different measurement of suffering and why does He allow one person to suffer much more than another person? I can't answer this specific question because I don't know what is in the mind of God regarding those issues. Why me and not them?

By the same token you can ask why do some people have it a lot better than others? Why do some people seem to get everything and have everything go their way and others seem to run into barricades all the time? That's another one I can't answer for the same reason, I don't know God's mind on this with regards to individuals.

But if you look at Hebrews Chapter 11 it talks about the nature of faith, which is trust and confidence in God's capability to take things where He wants them to go; and the writer of Hebrews talks about different people that entrusted themselves to God, some of whom experienced miraculous deliverance. In fact, I think Daniel is mentioned here indirectly in verse 33 where it says that by faith some conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises and shut the mouths of lions--referring certainly here to Daniel. But then it goes on in verse 35, and I think this is a very, very important verse in Scripture. It's the et al . Verse 35 says, "Women receive back their dead by resurrection and others [ et al ] were tortured, not accepting their release in order that they might obtain a better resurrection. And others experienced mocking and scourging and, yes, also chains. In imprisonment they were stoned, they were sawed in two, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword," etc. and you can read the rest. It shows that faith works in both circumstances, and God is working in both circumstances to accomplish whatever His goals are. Some people get rescued others don't, but God is involved in both and faith is involved in both.

Now we have a little hint here in verse 35 as to why that might be the case. It says, "Some were tortured not accepting their release in order that they might obtain a better resurrection." Let's talk about that for a quick moment. How is it that someone can obtain a better resurrection? Well, Paul tells Timothy that physical exercise profits little. To those of you who are working real hard to get your body in shape, Paul says, Well, you know, it's all right. But godliness is a means of great gain, for it holds a promise not only for the present life but also for the life to come.

So it's like you have two bodies, right? You have a spiritual body and you have a physical body. You can pump iron and get your physical body in shape and Paul says, Ho hum. But if you want to get your spiritual body in shape, whatever that means, he calls it "godliness that holds a promise for the life to come," which would be the resurrection. One thing that I think is safe to infer from that verse, though we are not sure what is entailed in the life to come, is there does seem to be levels of growth and maturity in that life, and there are rewards, and some people get more than others. Jesus talks about different rewards for different people for different things that they have accomplished, and it seems by this comment here that there are also different levels of spiritual fitness in the life to come. That's why Paul says godliness holds a promise not just for this age but also for the life to come.

My inference is that if you become spiritually fit in this life, that fitness carries over into the next life, and I suspect it carries over and accomplishes something in the next life that you will not be able to accomplish for yourself in the next life. I think this suggests--and I could be wrong on this--that when you are in the resurrection you can't catch up to somebody else who developed spiritually more than you did in this life. This is why Paul is encouraging you to develop spiritually in this life.

What does this term "better resurrection" mean? Well, it seems from other passages that there is a suggestion that the quality of spirituality, the fitness of our souls, in the after life, in the resurrection, is somehow commensurate with the spiritual exercise that we do in this life. This is why Paul made the comment there to Timothy about physical exercise vs. spiritual exercise, which he calls godliness.

When it comes to this phrase "obtaining a better resurrection" I suspect what that means is that because they were allowed to suffer for their faith their spiritual selves were being built up and strengthened and increased, brought to a deeper or a richer maturity. Paul talks about this in other passages, as well, when he talks about his physical body as wearing down or being beaten up. But his spiritual man, his inner man, is being built up and is flourishing. So it looks like God gives opportunities through suffering to increase the flourishing of our spiritual selves.

This is, by the way, almost the universal testimony of Christians who have survived deep personal conflict and pain and suffering. They reflect on it and they know intuitively that what has been accomplished, as God has worked through them, is the deepening of their spiritual nature and an enrichment and maturing of their inner selves, their inner man, and they wouldn't want to exchange that for anything, even if it meant that they wouldn't have to go through the pain that they went through.

This allows us to look at our trials and tribulations not as a curse, but as a grace because God is giving us an opportunity to grow in the inner man in a way that will have eternal implications and consequences--a kind of growth that we wouldn't have been able to have if He didn't allow us to go through this, and a kind of growth we wouldn't have been able to catch up with in the after life. It's a one shot deal in these circumstances, and I suspect that this is why we are encouraged in the Scriptures to engage suffering, to embrace it and trust God and live godly lives through the process. Peter says in 1 Peter 4, "I believe that for those who suffer according to the will of God we are to entrust ourselves to a faithful Creator in doing what is right." Maybe this is an answer to the question.

One of the reasons that some Christians go through more difficulty than others is God is allowing them an opportunity to do meaningful spiritual exercise in this life so as to build up their spiritual bodies, that they will be enriched in the life to come in a way that they couldn't be enriched unless they had dealt with this in a godly manner in faith in this life.

[Seth]

Wow! I didn't know that was you who wrote that! I really enjoyed it! :bigGrin: So, the "redemption of the purchased possession" is the point in which we are made perfect through Christ?

I'm really glad you were blessed by it. I know I was blessed by those who God put in my path to help me see better. Yes, the "redemption of the purchased possession" is why we have the earnest of the inheritance. Paul describes it here:

1 Timothy 4:6-8
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

And in greater detail here:

Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature (Creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


Peter mentions it too:

1 Peter 5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

[Molly]

waiting for the adoption, ...
24 For we are saved by hope:

That is interesting--we are saved by hope.  What do you think that means?


Partially, that we live our lives differently, make different choices, even experience joy because of the great hope we have?


Psalm 38:15
For in thee, O LORD, do I hope: thou wilt hear, O Lord my God.


Hope is so important that it is one of the names of God--Theos elpis--God of hope.  Paul tells us that our hope is given to us through the Holy Spirit.


'He that depends on the true God has laid all tangible things aside and lives by naked hope.'
--Martin Luther



13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

--Rom 15

[Seth]

I think you hit on it Molly. We are saved by hope in the sense that our hopes put us in race that we run.

1 John 3:2-3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in him, purifleth himself even as He is pure.

[sheila]

 How are we 'changed' We will ALL POSSESS THE FREE GIFT


what is it? IT IS THE VERY NATURE OF CHRIST AND OUR

FATHER THAT WE WILL BE GIVEN..


  IT IS OUR INHERITANCE AS HIS CHILDREN THAT WE RECEIVE

  AS WELL AS A CORRUPTION FREE BODY..


   If HE willed to make MAN in HIS OWN IMAGE....

  then WHO can resist HIS expressed WILL


  that has ALWAYS BEEN HIS GOAL AND PLAN

FROM THE BEGINNING


  Now,we KNOW...THAT HE WILL NOT GIVE HIS GLORY

TO ANOTHER..SO...the Glorious Freedom of the SONS OF GOD

are just that...SONS OF GOD BEARING HIS GLORY...

  FREE FROM SIN....PERFECT. OF ONE BODY,GOD'S


     the Father and I are ONE.......

[Beloved Servant]

John 14:20 (King James Version)

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen James and Sheila........ :thumbsup: