Believers are Extremely Flexible

[claypot]

Believers are extremely flexible.

I have observed one of the most amazing abilities in my time discussing God and things concerning Him. People are very flexible in so many ways. Maybe I should say flexibly inflexible many times.

Think about it. We pray for health and get sick and rearrange our view of God to accommodate. We pray for money and become broke and adjust our beliefs to make God out a hero anyway. We witness the most atrocious evils perpetuated upon people and we spend volumes of resources writing books and discussing and preaching how God is totally innocent and even how God is greatly to be praised regardless.

We are very adaptable creatures.

Take Scripture itself! We can take the most obvious contradictions and the most incredible stories in the Bible and make them work for us. We spend enormous amounts of time constructing ways in which to make the Bible make sense. We go to almost any lengths to do so. People have argued, discussed, and invented a myriad of ways to view the Bible and God.

God can do no wrong, and I agree, but the lengths we will go to 'prove' that point to others and, I think, mostly to ourselves, is boundless.

Is this why imagination is one of the great gifts given to people? The gymnastics that have to be performed to maintain what we believe would make an Olympian look like an amateur. The excuses we conjure up for God and His ways are almost laughable at times, if the people holding them were not deadly serious, very deadly serious indeed.

I am for God and I believe God is for me and I believe He watches us from within. He observes as we dissect His very being, as we mutilate 'Him' at times or poetically go off into la la land with some belief system that serves mainly ourselves first and God second, if at all.

We are flexible. If we are put in a corner and shown that we must be wrong we just get very quiet and come to the conclusion that we were given something nobody else was or better yet, we search until we find people who either believe like we do or we find people to talk into believing like we do. You can always find someone who will listen, who will drink poison Koolaid just because of what you say.

We are flexible. One of our tricks is to repeat a mantra. Everyone has one. Keep bending and twisting everything around you until it fits and then keep repeating this process over and over and over until it becomes reality to you. A mantra. If repeated often enough, not only will you believe what you have made, but you may draw others in too especially if what you 'believe' has some benefits that go along with it. The more benefits the more people will be inclined to believe right along with you.

Don't ever underestimate yourself, you are an amazing creature with super amazing abilities!

Enough said to maybe start a conversation, maybe not. It matters little. I am thankful for an opportunity to just vent for a moment or two, to challenge even myself a bit.

cp

[ScarletWren]

veddy interesteeeng.

Did you hev a certain point you ver tryeeng to make?   hmmmm

lol

Faith is an elusive and fascinating--errr--emotion?  We cling to faith and hope in order to deal with the hardships in life.  The Bible says our faith is given to us, though, not something we create.  So if you believe the Bible, what do you do with that?

We can only share what we believe, and trust that God is going to work in everyone's life just what He purposes.  I am thankful for faith and  hope.  The world would be a much more dismal place without it.

[Nathan]

Your post cp is one of those that easily applies to those pro UR and those against . .to those pro spiritual conotations and those against.  I found myself reading this as if someone who was against my perspectives were writing it to me.  Not in an offensive manner as I'm convinced you and I are on the same page almost in every post . . .I so enjoy your stuff.  But it does keep things in perspective for me because it rings true . .again. 

There is something that E. D. Long stated in one of his television broadcasts that really struck me . . .he said "My greatest fear is that I get really good at doing the wrong thing."  Your post is kind of filed in that same room of thinking.

[claypot]

Hey SW and Nathan,

Thanks much. I just get tired of all the acrobatics I need to do to make God believable to my 'neighbor'. I know I don't have to do these acrobatics but I find myself doing them anyway. Someone challenges me and off I go until I find myself in the land of ridiculousness.

Nathan, I am amazed to find someone like you who seems to be almost the same being as me in some ways. I mean it, do you think I was cloned from you?! You are right in that I kept the post 'belief system neutral'. I was preaching to myself as well as to others.

SW, I trust the Bible as I know it. I believe God is for me and because of that woe to those forces that are against me. I also believe God is for all His creation. My confidence that God is for me and my faith in God I believe is a work of Christ the Divine within my being so rest assured, SW, I am not discarding faith and hope. You are so correct that they are essential realities to our existence.

A point that I didn't make as I wanted to is this.....

People don't give themselves enough credit. To see how passionate and industrious we can be, look at all we do to defend our beliefs and God Himself. People have given their lives in ways big and small. They have died, endured torture, given up loved ones and more, all for beliefs that probably are very wrong, in some cases at least. People are extraordinary creations. We call ourselves sinners and rightly so but we are sinners who love and laugh and care and will kill and die for each other. We are sinners who do the most nasty of things and we are sinners who do the most beautiful things.

You know another thing that used to bother me to the point of clobbering someone sometimes? I understand better now but when people (Believers especially) say that when a person does something good then that is all God's doing yet when a person does something bad then it is that person's doing. This just sounded so contrived, so made up. Or when something bad happens in the world it is someone else's fault yet when something good happens then it is God doing it. If someone gets raped then God has nothing to do with it yet it someone gets a pat on the back for something well done then it is God. In one sense I understand what people are doing and they are not all wrong IMO but it was too black and white for me, thus unreal in some way. It's as if God is only in control of 1/4th of His creation!

Sorry so long, I didn't plan this. God is God, man is man, may the two never part. Hmmmm, I just made that up, you like???

Love your feedback, it food for my soul!

Thanks, and I mean it.

cp

[Nathan]

I wonder just how open I would be to what you said, if someone whom I "knew" were much more offensive and aggressive against me.  It's not very often that I can take something direct without also mentally judging "what" was said by "who" it was saying it.

I think it's something that I really should pay much closer attention at working on . . .or letting go of so God can work on it . . .

That was a very revealing thing you just did there bro.  God's ways . . .even when I'm trying to let myself fly . .God's ways are not my ways . .his thoughts are not my thoughts . . . thus is the process of life.  Heck, if "I" can get along with me . . .hows come nobody else seems to be able to??? :angel5:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Someone challenges me and off I go until I find myself in the land of ridiculousness.

For me.....   I find that is my religious influence from the various churches I formerly attended over the years.  First and foremost the greatest problem is that religion implies that it is up to us to warn people of Hell and we must do a great job of it in order to save souls, this is the confused doctrine of witnessing. 

Not that we aren't given instruction in the bible to share the Good News, but I've heard so many things about making sure the gospel is presented correctly, making sure it is pleasant and understandable and the teachings on how to witness and well you get the idea.

What happens is we end up believing that there should be a certain way to tell or say something to someone so that they will believe.   The truth is contrary to that notion so we share a little with someone and they don't really believe it or whatever, so we think we did not adequately explain it.  We then start digging and searching for a clearer way to say what we believe and before we know it, we are right where you described.

[claypot]

Nathan:I wonder just how open I would be to what you said, if someone whom I "knew" were much more offensive and aggressive against me.  It's not very often that I can take something direct without also mentally judging "what" was said by "who" it was saying it.

I think I'm kind of taking on God a bit here, repectfully of course. If I am directing anything at anyone, it would be everything at me, Brother.

For a God of order and not of confusion, He drives me crazy sometimes. I'm sure this is Him bringing order out of disorder. I know how disordered I am.

Got to run.

cp

[claypot]

Didn't plan on writing more on this topic but got something strong in my head.

I'm wondering if God is pulling a fast one on us. Think about it. If the Bible were a book of a few sentences or even a few words then the interpretations would only probably number in the hundreds or a bit more because there is only so much you can reasonably do with a few words but when you have a book as large and as varied as the Bible then there can be literally uncountable interpretations.

The other thing on my mind is that it looks as though everything including the proverbial kitchen sink was thrown into the Bible.

A rainbow clustered with diamonds the size of six chariot horses abreast burst upon the Ulypsis Orian world in great amounts of carnal tolerance. cp17.22

This could have easily been in the Bible and we would have interpreted it to conform to our image of belief. Sure we would have never ending arguments over it until we formed our own little clicks but we could easily incorporate such an absurd statement into the Bible.

So, is God pulling a fast one on us? Is Scripture itself some kind of forming method of God's?

Most peoples belief system could be written with a few words. They could be explained and are explained very simply and in minutes.

The four spiritual laws come to mind.

Believe and be saved, don't believe and go to hell is another.

You are either elect or not. Simple and to the point. Covers much.

The Bible covers so much time and geography and peoples that anything could be thrown in and made to work.

Just trying to be real with God. Just trying to real with myself.

cp

[Sarah]

I have thought this too before, the amount of mental gymnastics we do to support our thinking. I once saw the mind as an ocean; very deep and full of uncountable and unknowable things, a place to get lost in, a place of unrest and confusion. When I get to the point where I feel lost, because of tragedy or my brain goes places I don't like, "I fall on the rock that is higher than I."

I suppose athiests would call all of this being a survivor, and maybe I am, but I have to be true to what I know.

[claypot]

I have thought this too before, the amount of mental gymnastics we do to support our thinking. I once saw the mind as an ocean; very deep and full of uncountable and unknowable things, a place to get lost in, a place of unrest and confusion. When I get to the point where I feel lost, because of tragedy or my brain goes places I don't like, "I fall on the rock that is higher than I."

I suppose athiests would call all of this being a survivor, and maybe I am, but I have to be true to what I know.

Sarah, you got some good thoughts. I can relate to your ocean/mind metaphor. Makes sense and it takes very little gymnastics to make it make sense. Does that make sense!!!

Athiests call faith being a survivor or a crutch but what person does not need a crutch once in a while and what person isn't a survivor?

cp

[ScarletWren]

It is true that we will do anything to defend what we believe.  Like to defend ET, believers diminish the word all in many verses and say that within the context of a passage, those that SEEM to teach universal salvation are not really saying that.  Then they point to the verses which talk about ETERNAL hell and damnation, and WE go off on a tangent about aion/aionios.  lol   It can get wearisome at times.  That's when we have to sit back and just let the Holy Spirit flow in us.

Yes I have seen Christians say that God never has anything to do with rape and murder.  But didn't Job say that we have to accept the good AND the bad that God visits upon us?  And somewhere else (?) Does evil come upon a city and the Lord has not done it?  When an author begins a book, he must have at least an outline of what the book is about, the characters, what the characters are like and any change that happens to them, the plot, etc.  He just doesn't start with a character, an anticipated ending and let it go from there.  And I took a short course once and there has to be a 'problem', something to overcome for the book to really be a book and not just an anecdote.  So for us to be OVERCOMERS, there must be something for us to overcome.  For us to be LIKE God, we must know good from evil.  So though it is through the agency of Satan (whoever or whatever that represents to any given individual), God inflicts evil upon the world and individuals. To try to get God off the hook, believers make God so much less than WHO He really is.

It's good to be able to come here (or other places) to vent one's frustration.  Hopefully, we will be built up and encouraged to continue on our path.  Sometimes we need to take a break.  That's ok too.  Oh Lord, help us to know which place we're in!!

[claypot]

It is true that we will do anything to defend what we believe.  Like to defend ET, believers diminish the word all in many verses and say that within the context of a passage, those that SEEM to teach universal salvation are not really saying that.  Then they point to the verses which talk about ETERNAL hell and damnation, and WE go off on a tangent about aion/aionios.  lol   It can get wearisome at times.  That's when we have to sit back and just let the Holy Spirit flow in us.

Yes I have seen Christians say that God never has anything to do with rape and murder.  But didn't Job say that we have to accept the good AND the bad that God visits upon us?  And somewhere else (?) Does evil come upon a city and the Lord has not done it?  When an author begins a book, he must have at least an outline of what the book is about, the characters, what the characters are like and any change that happens to them, the plot, etc.  He just doesn't start with a character, an anticipated ending and let it go from there.  And I took a short course once and there has to be a 'problem', something to overcome for the book to really be a book and not just an anecdote.  So for us to be OVERCOMERS, there must be something for us to overcome.  For us to be LIKE God, we must know good from evil.  So though it is through the agency of Satan (whoever or whatever that represents to any given individual), God inflicts evil upon the world and individuals. To try to get God off the hook, believers make God so much less than WHO He really is.

It's good to be able to come here (or other places) to vent one's frustration.  Hopefully, we will be built up and encouraged to continue on our path.  Sometimes we need to take a break.  That's ok too.  Oh Lord, help us to know which place we're in!!

SW, you sound so balanced.

I just get a bit frustrated with how we get into kind of a spiral situation in our views of God. My goal is to know Him, this ultimate energy force, this cosmic entity, this Divine intimacy. The minute my journey gets stale I do almost anything to shock it into life again. This is how I arrived where I am from where I started. This is why I am questioning God. This is why I say I think He may be pulling a fast one on us with Scripture. I feel a real fear in challenging God but I also think I can do it. My kids can challenge me and for that matter I like when they do for it shows they are thinking. I can tell when I am challenged with respect and when I'm not.

OK, why so much Scritpure? For a God who is not an author of confusion He certainly created a Book that causes the most confusion ever. For a God who is all wise I wonder why He needed so many words to say what He wanted to say. I mean, come on, eat my flesh, drink my blood? Where does this kind of talk come from? First Adam, last Adam? Forgive everyone by grace, no strings attached? This is a God who may be the most orderly essence in existence but relating to us every day humans in our language is not one of His strong suits! Now again I say this with respect. I know we are being brought to a point where all will make sense but until then I just think it is funny and sad at times how we twist and manipulate reality to make it make sense to us.

I believe God is perfect and I believe I am not. I'm sure it's me and people in general who cause all the confusion. I look around at many of my friends who could care less about even a small fraction of the things discussed in this forum. They live life and go to church and question not a thing and live happily ever after. I sometimes envy them. Do you? Will they be in a worse place than me because they haven't 'seen' the things I have? I doubt it and don't think they should be.

What's up?

cp

[claypot]

Clay He hides things, its to His very glory to do that  :grin: Its the glory of Kings to search it out.

Job 12:11 Doth not **the ear** try words? and the mouth taste his meat?

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Scripture is given for reproof

Proverbs 1:23 **Turn you** at **my reproof**: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding

Luke 24:45 Then **opened he** their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

He teaches us but so what if others speak differently? It works for us even in that. Its even shown God proves *us* through others to see whether we we cleave to Him and His words. Just like in the Garden, whose words we would believe. Not saying God couldnt work it altogether for good but if understanding is with Him (In Christ) it should cause us to cleave unto Him because we know Gods ability to make something clear to us. When He clarifies it no one else can really touch it  :grin:

Eternal life isnt in the scripture its in Jesus Christ, but I personally love proving Him out of scripture for others who might not be able to find Him in there because they really do bear witness unto Him.

I dont think God is pulling a fast one with scripture  :grin: its given of His inspiration and by the same comes understanding of them and Him who is true. Heck look at the apostles sharing about Him reasoning from the scripture the Bereans being of more noble character would search the scripts to see if they were true. We are to prove all things and were commended for it. Thats why I get nuts when I cant find what folks are talking about because in using their own words at times my ear cannot always find where they are getting something because I use His words as my measuring line.

Whether Im still juvenuile I dont know but if one considers themselves more spiritual then they would GET IT why I do not and in their "maturity" I would think they would honor the Lord in their doings in using His to further even someone like "me".

Thats how I think about it  :grin:

Hey Fire, I hear ya, I do. You wrote....

I personally love proving Him out of scripture for others who might not be able to find Him in there because they really do bear witness unto Him.

Why do we have to prove Him at all? Why wouldn't He have Scripture written so we wouldn't have to do so many gymnastics to figure out what is being written? Fire, an author who is trying to get a point across or instrutions to someone would be considered a poor author and probably sell very few books if he didn't come straight to the point and make his work very clear and concise.

I believe the Bible to be a perfectly written work, I do. What I am saying in all this is that I am starting to think there is another purpose for Scripture. I bet you could sum up the message of the whole Bible in a few words, couldn't you?

I understand God hiding things. I hide things from my kids until I deem them mature enough to be shown so I understand and am thankful that God hides things that would otherwise be harmful to me.

I understand that God reveals all things in His good time.

Why, in your opinion, do we need the whole Bible? Is it because one person gets God's message maybe through a book like Numbers while another gets Gods message through First John?

And I don't want to pick on the Bible, that's not my purpose here. Again I think very highly of the Bible.

What's another purpose for Scripture? Hmmmmmmm. It is like a field where a precious treasure is hid. It is then worth excavating very carefully.

I have seen in my life too how Scripture and people are like people and their pet dogs. I chuckle at this. Ever notice how some people buy dogs that tend to resemble themselves in looks or nature? I see this in peoples veiws of Scripture. If a person is a hard black and white kind of individual He may like the Calvanist type of interpretations and so forth. What I wonder is, does Scriputure mold us or do we mold Scripture to our liking?

cp

[claypot]

Here it speaks of scripture and what its profitable for Clay

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: ~That~ the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

So we are unskillful and grow more skillful as He teaches us

How I would sum up the scriptures in a few words would be, "They are HIS and I cherish them"  :HeartThrob:

Why do we need the scriptures?

Because of the above and the casting His words behind you wouldnt be too adviseable  :grin:

He that "loveth me" keeps my sayings, he that loveth me NOT keeps NOT my sayings.

They are words of truth and Im into that sorta thing CP :grin:

Arent you?  :grin:

I am, Fire but sometimes I echo the immortal words "What is truth?" See, now here I go. I would answer myself "Jesus, who is Truth". There I go, into a vortex of something that doesn't seem real to me. Is it because I am so fake, so mortal?

I don't want to get into a pity party for me either. Sometimes it all seems so preposterous. Maybe because it's too big.

Well, I should be into building up the saints and being positive and have joyful faith so I gotta shake my self and get back in the groove. I think way too much or maybe not enough.

Thanks for helping.

cp

[ScarletWren]

I guess it wasn't meant to be easy.   

[Sarah]

I look around at many of my friends who could care less about even a small fraction of the things discussed in this forum. They live life and go to church and question not a thing and live happily ever after. I sometimes envy them. Do you?

I so relate to this! In reality many do not care for truth, but rather for the social aspects of shared beliefs and church community. They would be bored and annoyed by my ponderings. I certainly envy 'shared beliefs and church community'.  I do remember a time when I was happy in this social setting, but when I really begin to ponder how I felt, it wasn't all roses. Their was a lot of guilt; guilt of not praying enough, witnessing enough, and of course sinning (which I still feel guilt over, just not that I'm going to burn forever if I died an instant later). I am in a better place now. Peace is much more a constant. Thank you for bringing this up CP, I am now remembering how miserable I was. My internal life is much better. But I certainly understand that many people are not as introspective as I tend to be and are perfectly content with the status quo.

I think it holds that the person shapes scripture. Even within myself I see that I will 'google' stuff in scripture searching for my slant. I think of Jesus talking about those who believe He is the Son of God having the light in them and are drawn to the light, but those who do not are already condemned and love the darkness.  You are drawn to what is in you. This is why we have the Fred Phelps and Robert Rutherfords, both studiers of the bible, and yet completely different conclusions. It isn't the bible that shapes the man, but the man the bible.

I recently attended a church that believes in relationship with God through His Son, but doesn't believe that we can hear from God. How does that happen that you have relationship with God and yet He doesn't communicate back? I believe they actually have a relationship with the bible. There are classrooms and study guides and home fellowships and crosses galore. And yet, from my perspective, their relationship is with a doctrine. And I know that it is easy to get caught up in this, even UR. Doctrine is empty, life is still in relationship.