ascended

[WhiteWings]

And the 2nd article by whitewings

Even more problems  :laughing7:

Says that it is a vision. But how would all the disciples see the vision, I thought that visions were particular to the person and to no one else. I don't know if there is another example of a vision in the bible where more than one person receives it.

^KJVMat 3:14-17 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

How many/who did hear that voice? At least two I would say. Jesus already knew He was/is the Son of God. And teh voice was speaking about Jesus.
It's safe to assume Jesus heard the voice + John the Baptist and perhaps more people.
==> 1 vision several people.

When suddenly, Saul's journey was interrupted: a "great Light shined all around them", and Saul was "struck blind and unable to see". A voice from the Light "spoke to Saul, saying, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?'" Saul himself answered, "Whom art thou, lord?" (If confronted by a powerful angel from God, it was thought best to be respectful.) The voice from the Light answered, "I am Jesus, whom thou art persecuting" (by persecuting His followers, the Christians, Saul was also indirectly persecuting Jesus. But by attempting to destroy His followers and believers, and thus, their beliefs and thereby to eradicate His teachings, Saul was directly persecuting Jesus Himself, who died upon the Cross after bringing His teachings to the world). "It is difficult for you to kick against the goads", Jesus continued. Jesus concluded by directing Saul to go in to the City, and to meet Him there. The rest of the religious, persecuting party that had accompanied Saul heard the Voice from Heaven, but saw nothing. (In other words, the vision was for Saul alone). The men brought Saul, who had been struck blind, into the city of Damascus, where they left him at an inn.
==> Several people heard the voice.

[thinktank]

It is puzling and intriguing as to what this means. For the scripture says in hebrews, that enoch did not see death.

Elijah was taken up to a whirlwind to heaven. Other people have been to heaven including joshua the high priest and God gave him a new robe in heaven. So perhaps that verse "no man has ascended except the son of man"

Maybe it means that no man in their own power can go to heaven, only Jesus the son of man can do that, because he is God.  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.

There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.

The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???

Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?

If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.

[thinktank]

Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.

There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.

The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???

Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?

If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.

Zechariah 3

[micah7:9]

Quoting J. Preston Eby    http://www.godfire.net/eby/rev-11.html

"by what authority do we contend that Enoch and Elijah left planet earth and have, for the past several thousand years, been living in some far-off heaven somewhere in immortal bodies that escaped death! Nowhere does the scripture say that Elijah never died. It only says he was "taken," and he was seen being caught into a whirlwind. I have seen many things caught up in whirlwinds, my friend, including buildings and trees, and they were surely transferred some place, some of them never seen again. But they did not go to heaven! Ah, beloved, we do such superficial thinking!

I do not for one moment doubt that Enoch had a great and glorious spiritual experience that raised him up into a new dimension of spiritual life, for that is the outcome in any age of walking with God! He "was not" any more the same old Enoch, nor was He "found" any more in the old realm of sin and death consciousness and existence. But the scripture plainly states that HE DIED! Oh, how we need to let go of all the old religious traditions and believe what God has said! Our blessed Lord Jesus Christ, who came out of the tomb in a glorious body of divine life and power has told us from that state of resurrection life and immortality that HE HIMSELF IS THE FIRST BEGOTTEN, THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD! The question follows — if Enoch and Elijah were able to attain this apart from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, then why would any of us have needed Jesus to open the way for us? Jesus would not have been the first man to overcome death — Enoch would have been first! This strikes at the very root of the redemption accomplished through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our hope of full and complete redemption, including the redemption of our bodies, lies not with Enoch and Elijah, great as those men were, for only Jesus has the experience, and therefore the power, to change our vile bodies that they may be fashioned like unto His body of glory! Blessed be the firstborn Son!"

Very good, very good indeed.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.

There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.

The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???

Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?

If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.

Zechariah 3

What verse does state he was in heaven?
I only read that the angel(s) and the Lord came.
Not that Zechariah was taken to heaven (or elsewhere)

[thinktank]

Jesus said noone ascended to heaven. Unless someone can show me a translation error that's a fact for me.

There are 3 heaven (or more) in the Bible.
1] Sky/atmosphere.
2] Universe.
3] Where God lives.

The heaven Jesus spoke about was #3
Whirlwind to #1 ???

Can you quote the Joshua and the robe verses?

If they still live and are not in #3 then they must be somewhere else. Basicly it could be anywhere. For example an undiscovered island. 5000 miles away where nobody knew them. Or as I qouted: Another time.
All speculation. But just ignoring Jesus saying noone went to heaven is an even worse option IMO.

Zechariah 3

What verse does state he was in heaven?
I only read that the angel(s) and the Lord came.
Not that Zechariah was taken to heaven (or elsewhere)

Hes asleep, but the verse said he standing before the lord, there isn't a verse that says he's in heaven but he could be  :dontknow:

Another thing to consider is that time is different in heaven than on earth I think, for one day is as a thousand to the lord. So if Elijah did not go to heaven then I agree with you that he was translated in time to another place. If the mount of transfiguration was actually Elijah, then maybe he's upon the earth but people did not recognize him.

Jesus said Elias has come already but they did not regard him. Maybe he meant that Elijah had come/returned in angelic/spiritual form.  :dontknow:

Because I for one belive that Elijah will be one of the 2 witnesses and so maybe Elijah is upon the earth but is invisible, until the day of witnessing against the beast and his kingdom.

[WhiteWings]

Another thing to consider is that time is different in heaven than on earth I think, for one day is as a thousand to the lord.

Jesus said nobody. He didn't mention any duration. Well, indirectly He said never. So, imo, not even a second.

So if Elijah did not go to heaven then I agree with you that he was translated in time to another place. If the mount of transfiguration was actually Elijah, then maybe he's upon the earth but people did not recognize him.

Matthew 17:11-12 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you that Elijah is come already and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatever they listed."
In other words, Christ says the prophesy that Elijah shall come first is true. "But I say unto you" that it's already fulfilled. In the Greek literally verse 12 says, "Elijah indeed comes first, and restores all things.." So Christ has plainly told them that the prophesy was true, "BUT" that Elijah had come already and they didn't even know him. So not only do we see in this verse that Christ references the prophesy of Elijah as "true" but also that this Elijah had come, this prophesy fulfilled, and wasn't recognized by them.
.....
Esaias is the Greek transliteration of the name Isaiah. So I hope that you won't be ignoring this plain declaration as so many others have done. It not only says that this (John the Baptist) "IS HE," but also that it was him "that was prophesied" to come before Christ by Isaiah. I mean really, how many ways does God have to say that a scripture is fulfilled before some people actually start to believe it? There is no scripture that says it wasn't fulfilled, or that it must be fulfilled again, or that it was only half fulfilled. Those ideas are simply the creative manipulation of scripture by teachers who choose not to follow the scriptures, but to lead them. And all under the convenient blanket of the alleged "double fulfillment." God says "this was" the fulfillment of that prophesied in Isaiah.
......
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/was_john_the_baptist_elijah.shtml
thetrumpet.com/cache/Elijah%20Has%20Come%20Already.pdf

[WhiteWings]

http://agnosticreview.com/whereselijah.htm

Luke 1:13,17
But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

==> That's not literally.

[Nathan]

Actually Scripture didn't say "nobody"  it says "no man".  There's a big difference when looking at the spiritual principles involved here.  If it's literally no person can ever enter into heaven. . .then why do other places state that we are already seated with him in heavenly places?  Sounds like there has to be an ascension of some sort taking place for that to happen.  Which would then cause me to revert back to "no man of flesh" can ascend. . .which then fits the pattern again.


And as to your last post here WW . .you say it wasn't literally . . .you don't think John the Baptist could literally have the same anointing on him as Elijah did?

[thinktank]

http://agnosticreview.com/whereselijah.htm

Luke 1:13,17
But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

==> That's not literally.

John said from his own mouth that he wasn't Elias. so who are ye

"I am one that dwelleth in the wilderness to make the paths straight."

And you say above that he is in the spirit and power of Elijah, so it must mean Elijah's anointing that was upon him, was transfered to John, just as Elisha had his anoitning also.
So that means that the prophecy has not been fullfilled in malachi and is yet to happen.

Does Elias mean Isiah? If so that brings to light this idea.

[WhiteWings]

Actually Scripture didn't say "nobody"  it says "no man".

For me tha

There's a big difference when looking at the spiritual principles involved here.  If it's literally no person can ever enter into heaven.

I didn't say never. Neither did Jesus imo. For me in theory billions could have ascended 1 second after Jesus. Jesus was the first. Not the only one.

. .then why do other places state that we are already seated with him in heavenly places?

Can't recall that so can't comment but I take a guess before going to bed...
When I become religious doesn't that mean I in a way 'ascend'. I'll repeat myself as I did with "fallen" and "angel": What is the exact defenition of ascend?
I'll give two relavant ones.
A king that ascends the throne doesn't go anywhere. He just gets a higher rank.
A window cleaner that ascends a ladder moves up. (but doesn't get a higher rank.

And as to your last post here WW . .you say it wasn't literally . . .you don't think John the Baptist could literally have the same anointing on him as Elijah did?

For me literal is the same man of flesh and blood. Nothing spiritual at all.

[Nathan]

[quote
For me literal is the same man of flesh and blood. Nothing spiritual at all.
[/quote]

Ah, then of course he wasn't . .. I understand that much.  That would be a platform for reincarnation if it were literally true.

[thinktank]

The anointing comes from God though and I belive that is transferable. It must be some kind of mantle or vessel that contains the faith of Elijah, so that it's power can be transfered to another. A spiritual mystery, or mastery!.

[WhiteWings]

[quote
For me literal is the same man of flesh and blood. Nothing spiritual at all.

Ah, then of course he wasn't . .. I understand that much.  That would be a platform for reincarnation if it were literally true.
[/quote]Not nessecarily. Reincarnation requires death....

[micah7:9]

You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven  :laughing7:

Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm

"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?

Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
 

[WhiteWings]

You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven  :laughing7:

Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm

"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?

Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

^NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...

[micah7:9]

You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven  :laughing7:

Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm

"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?

Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

^NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...

As you assume.

[thinktank]

You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven  :laughing7:

Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm

"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?

Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

^NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...

Combine it with rev 12 and it makes sense that God is in heaven here. The accuser of the brethren was cast down so rejoice.

[WhiteWings]

You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven  :laughing7:

Taken him doesn't say taken to heaven.
Heaven means sky, space/galaxy, heaven.
Transfered is put in another place.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/HWA/k/469/Where-Are-Enoch-Elijah.htm

"You forgot to ask why satan went back and forth to heaven"
I only found that he fell from heaven, when did he go back and forth?

Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

^NIVJob 1:6-7 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Assuming the Lord was sitting in heaven...

As you assume.

Doesn't that mean Satan ascended and decended many times to/from heaven? And likely the same can be said about 'the angels'.
Long before Jesus said that nobody did so.
:JCThink:

[jabcat]

Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?

[peacemaker]

Remember, the story of Job:

Job 1:6-8 (King James Version)

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered the servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth; a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth (gives reverence to the SPIRIT) God, and escheweth evil?

"Truth is something not before realized."

This story did not take place in another realm, in the hereafter – rather, it was confined to the limitations of Men on earth as opposed to heaven, who professed to represent the SPIRIT. Consider a court case in which there is a victim, an accuser, defendant, Magistrate, and a King. Men appear to write their versions of truth based on their belief systems. Thus, their written words (and altered translations) are fallible. But as few here say, "there are deeper truths" in the Scriptures which are not seen on the surface. They must be spiritually discerned through eyes that see, and ears that hear not the voices of men.

I see a ribbon of truth that runs through the Scriptures in the form of a braided rope; the voice of the SPIRIT. We are ONE with the SPIRIT, experiencing the physical realm. The SPIRIT cannot experience these things, except through the state of this flesh. Which begs the question, "Why are we called to overcome?" Is there any other way!

"The totality of any experience must be real, not predicated on false beliefs."

Perhaps, this is a reason for the presence of evil?

For the eyes of the SPIRIT run to and fro throughout the whole earth ... (2 Chronicles 16:9)
...the eyes of the SPIRIT are in every place; beholding the evil and the good. (Proverbs 15:3)

[WhiteWings]

Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?

Yeah, that's true.

Are Enoch and Eliah men if say only their spirit went to heaven? Or their body got changed before they acended.

If angels can ascend and descent then it also shows we are not angels as sometimes suggested

[micah7:9]

Not sure, but doesn't the scripture say "no man"?

I found most translations to read "no one."
Joh 3:13  and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven. (YLT)

[WhiteWings]

 :sigh:
Yeah only KJV seems to use no man..

If "no one" includes man, spirit, angels, etc then we have a problem.
Father walked in the Garden of Eden.
Father moved over the deep at creation.
Father is in heaven.
So there was at least one (Father) that ascended before Jesus. And likely many times. :2c: