Tentmaker Forum

Being a different member of different forums, I have seen numerous depictions of God which have left me confused

I do know this much though that churches don't preach an accurate message, which results in many false conversions such as myself, when thought I was a christian, I hoped that God loved me, however I've never been 100% sure of my salvation, I don't think I've ever truly known God, I've always been an agnostic theist (I believe in God but I don't KNOW God), it's not because I haven't wanted to, it's perhaps been because I've never been chosen

What confuses me is that many people see God as all loving, I don't know if this is perhaps where a great deal of my problem lies, I've never felt love and acceptance from my own parents, I've always been an outcast, don't worry I'm not having a pity party, I've come to terms with the fact that I'm not dear to my parents and being an outcast, in fact I can welcome it with open arms if only I could have the assurance in my heart that God has predestined all to be saved

When people speak of UR it seems right and it makes sense, however is it real or could it be a gospel built on false hope, there are so many passages that speak of the wrath of God that one cannot overlook, not to mention apocryphal books like the Book of Enoch, and 2Esdras that clearly spell out ET, in such a way that it was preplanned by God (surely this is largely responsible for the concept of ET to have taken a foothold in the first place)

Code:

Pro 16:25  There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.


However I find the ETers very unloving, and they seem totally unbothered by the ET concept and come with phrases like "Gods ways are not our ways", or God is not only love, he is also holy and cannot allow sin in his presence which begs the question

WHY DID HE BRING US INTO THIS MESS AS SINNERS, WITHOUT AS MUCH AS CONSULTING US FIRST, THEN CONDEMN US FOR SOMETHING HE CREATED US AS IN THE FIRST PLACE

What scares me is that I'm figuratively stumbling in the dark as I haven't had the revelation many others have had, the Eters say they have this intimate relationship with God, so do the URers and the Annihilationists, but they can't all be right

The crux of the matter is that if ET or annihilation are true, then God never intended to save all mankind, however if so, annihilation at least shows much more mercy and compassion for the victim than ET and I could accept an annihilation God, although I would prefer an UR God

The thing is all 3 positions have scripture to back them up

The thing is I have to try find the true character of God, if he is an ET God then I'm doomed, however I won't go on ex-c forums and make a mockery as this is not my style, I will try put this behind me and try to live the rest of my life as best I know how, and try to enjoy it

I just hope that UR is true and that God will reveal it to me, so that I can know without a shadow of a doubt, one thing I do notice is that URers are far more loving and less vindictive than ETers (I could never be an ETer, I would have to become agnostic or deist)

I want those that wronged me to be in heaven one day, I don't want them to go to an eternal hell

I hope you can understand my dilemma

Shadow, im glad your here, because you feel EXACTLY the same as me.  Everything you have said above i totally understand.  Its annoying isnt it?  Confusing.  Its hard because it kind of grounds you...You think "Why cant i just find out the damn answer and get on with things?" 

Well, i dont know.  Im thinking of giving up on the old religion thing completely, this is the last chance im giving it.  Im willing to preach, spread the word..do almost anything if i learn the truth, and i still cant find it lol.

Well, I for one don't fear ET at all. I just don't think it's true.

I look at the whole situation this way:

If God is love then he will have all men to be saved.

If God isn't love, then he won't save all men, and I don't want to be a part of this God anyway. I'd gladly be annihilated.

At this point I figure: I don't really have much to worry about. Either God is going to save me and everyone else because he loves ALL men, or he might annihilate me and some others, but I can't control any of it. (I mean, if I were to be annihilated in the future then I was doomed to be annihilated. God, being all knowing, would have put me on Earth knowing that I'd be annihilated, and so my fate was sealed. Thus, I have absolutely no control over my end fate.)

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 09:53:56 PM
Shadow, im glad your here, because you feel EXACTLY the same as me.  Everything you have said above i totally understand.  Its annoying isnt it?  Confusing.  Its hard because it kind of grounds you...You think "Why cant i just find out the damn answer and get on with things?" 

Well, i dont know.  Im thinking of giving up on the old religion thing completely, this is the last chance im giving it.  Im willing to preach, spread the word..do almost anything if i learn the truth, and i still cant find it lol.

I've thought these words all too much before. Even now, they come to me.

Thanks for that JHAKH :HeartThrob:

I think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.

Don't give up on UR just yet, although I haven't progressed much, I find that the Eters are making less and less sense when they try to defend their beloved doctrine

They are also mostly fixated on a pretrib rapture which to me is a doctrine rooted in utter self centredness, I've downloaded a whole lot of UR websites for offline viewing, sometimes it resonates a chord in me, it makes more sense than ET, I believe Cardinal, Martincisneros and others that have had that intimate experience with God

Here are a few UR websites

http://www.hell-fact-or-fable.com/index.html

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter12.cfm

http://www.tlchrist.info/ (this one is quite a large site)

Rather listen to others than me, as I suffer from severe anxiety and I'm not as grounded as they are, I tend to get my knickers in a knot and make posts and threads of this nature now and again, although not as frequently as I once did

Quote from: Tim B on October 01, 2009, 10:07:47 PM
Well, I for one don't fear ET at all. I just don't think it's true.

I look at the whole situation this way:

If God is love then he will have all men to be saved.

If God isn't love, then he won't save all men, and I don't want to be a part of this God anyway. I'd gladly be annihilated.

At this point I figure: I don't really have much to worry about. Either God is going to save me and everyone else because he loves ALL men, or he might annihilate me and some others, but I can't control any of it. (I mean, if I were to be annihilated in the future then I was doomed to be annihilated. God, being all knowing, would have put me on Earth knowing that I'd be annihilated, and so my fate was sealed. Thus, I have absolutely no control over my end fate.)

True Tim True.  Its just worrying when sometimes you cant help but think that the eternal life of all men may well be in the hands of a manic.  The though has occurred to me many time, through passages like this...

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

   If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

...And then i have to realize that this is a God of love?  It makes no sense.

Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 10:11:50 PM
Thanks for that JHAKH :HeartThrob:

I think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.

Don't give up on UR just yet, although I haven't progressed much, I find that the Eters are making less and less sense when they try to defend their beloved doctrine

They are also mostly fixated on a pretrib rapture which to me is a doctrine rooted in utter self centredness, I've downloaded a whole lot of UR websites for offline viewing, sometimes it resonates a chord in me, it makes more sense than ET, I believe Cardinal, Martincisneros and others that have had that intimate experience with God

Here are a few UR websites

http://www.hell-fact-or-fable.com/index.html

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/Chapter12.cfm

http://www.tlchrist.info/ (this one is quite a large site)

Rather listen to others than me, as I suffer from severe anxiety and I'm not as grounded as they are, I tend to get my knickers in a knot and make posts and threads of this nature now and again, although not as frequently as I once did

Hi, hey don't worry about it, i like hearing all sides of the coin, in fact these doubts have to be dealt with or we won't get anywhere, so its good to stare them in the eye.

Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 10:11:50 PMI think I'm a burden to most here,

If that was true all you post would be ignored. But they are all answered......

QuoteI've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much,

Of course I can only 'judge' you from your posts but to me they seem less doomy that before.
I see more and more ET doubt in your posts. Maybe you spend to little time here and to much on ET sites?
If you find a good (as in evil) ET article many here would love to debunk it to the last letter.
I think that's better for you both from teh point of learning and sleepless nights.

QuoteI'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here

On the bright side: If you are slow that also means once you are into UR some silly ET article won't even scratch your armor... Being slow works both ways you know.

QuoteI find that the Eters are making less and less sense when they try to defend their beloved doctrine

Progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:

Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 10:11:50 PM
I think I'm a burden to most here,

I love you and am very glad you're here, Shadow.
Your honesty and rawness are refreshing and you say what is in your heart.
You are not a burden in the least.
Quite the opposite.
The ones I find burdensome at times are those who are too afraid to get real.

peace to you shadow.

Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 10:11:50 PMI think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.

It's all in your mind. You've not been a burden to anyone around here.  We love you and are glad you've been here and we miss you when you're not.

 :cloud9: Absolutely........ :girlheart:

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

willieH: Hi Shadow... :hithere:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/somebody614/grouphug2.gif)

We need you here! (you're the purple one!)  :laughing7:

Thanks for the responses and understanding, I've brought the topic back to what it originally said, I was really down, to those that Pmed me I will reply to those Pm's tommorrow, I see more people care than I first thought and for that I thank you, I would never have got such love and understanding on an ET forum :HeartThrob:

It's because we think of one another as friends and family; not the adversary.
Remember, you're the purple one!

 :HeartThrob: Glad that you are starting to understand that we love ya...
if you hurt, we hurt.
Just know that you're loved. :HeartThrob:


p.s. Willie, can I be the green one? Green is my favorite color. Thanks!  :winkgrin:

:grouppray:

I'm definitely red.  More like orange though. :laughing7:

Quote from: martincisneros on October 02, 2009, 12:07:05 AM

Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 10:11:50 PMI think I'm a burden to most here, I've been here 15 months or so and I don't feel I've progressed much, I'm not normally this slow, but I'm dependent on God and he hasn't chosen to reveal himself to me like some others on here.

It's all in your mind. You've not been a burden to anyone around here.  We love you and are glad you've been here and we miss you when you're not.

:thumbsup:

I guess I'll take the yellow color.  :winkgrin:

Also, I'm glad you still join us, Shadow.  :boyheart:

You're honesty is welcome too! Makes discussion more real! :thumbsup:

Personally, I'm glad to have some around who have doubts or uncertainties - being around only those who seem to have no doubts or uncertainty whatsoever and who seem to spend every waking moment glorifying God can be, I am forced to admit, a little intimidating. :laughing7:

Intimidating?
That will change.

That is what we are created to do — and it is a response to Him — not a first action on our part.

Ahh, to walk again with the Lord in the cool of the day!

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 03:22:35 AM
Personally, I'm glad to have some around who have doubts or uncertainties

Same here.
Faith is like muscle tissue, if it's never been broken down, how is it ever supposed to gain strength? Coming before friends with a pumped up muscle is great, but true courage in friendship is letting your friends in, when your muscle is in the "broken down" state.

Well, that's just the way I see it.

:HeartThrob:

Hey Shadow,

I think that we all probably come from very different places. I don't understand the whole ET mindset but it was never instilled in me the way it is in many other Christians as I was raised Mormon (which most do not even consider Christian, anyway). And even though the Book of Mormon speaks about an eternal hell it's not really something that Mormons  focus on all that much as they don't believe that most people are going there (as does traditional Christianity). In Mormonism we just don't all make it to the "Celestial Kingdom" (the highest degree of glory).

But anyway, my only point is that while I had doubts about the Mormon church and Joseph Smith and all of that I also (probably as a result of the same) had doubts about the existence of God, just as you do. I had "hope" because I was taught/told that there is a God, but I did not feel like I "knew" Him or even "knew" that He did exist.

Not to be discouraging (so I hope this is more encouraging than discouraging) but for as far back as I can remember I would pray to God to reveal himself to me so that I would "know" him (as others said that "they" did), but after many years of praying and begging and pleading with Him - to no avail - I gave up altogether and figured I would just find out when I die. And it wasn't until I was in my 30's (about 5 years ago) that God finally revealed himself to me in such a way that I did not doubt for a second that it was God reaching out to me. So, it is my experience that God can and will find us wherever we are, but it certainly doesn't come by demand or by any other timetable but His. Sometimes it doesn't even seem to come by prayer and seeking... because it does take so long, sometimes, unfortunately.  :gsigh:

But His timing is always "right" even if we don't know when that time will come.  :gwink:

It was only for a brief few months after that experience that I gave serious thought to the doctrine of "eternal torment" ("serious" in that I believed it to be what the bible said, so didn't really spend all that much time thinking seriously about it or questioning it. I was only interested in figuring out what all of the "symbols" in the book of Revelation and Daniel and Ezekiel meant and how/when believers might be "raptured"... I was REALLY SERIOUSLY INTO all that "end times" stuff).

But about 6 months in I came across the teaching of universal salvation for the very first time (because I clicked on an add about tithing being unscriptural) and I knew from the very first article that I read that it was true.

So, for as long as it took me to even believe that God exists at all, was just how quick (even faster) it was for me to see the truth of UR. Now I don't see everything the same way now that I did then and I think that there are just as many "denomination" (if I can call them that, for lack of a better word) among those who believe in UR as there are those who believe in ET. Just like with ET, the differences are "in the details".

But when it comes to the LOVE of God and the WRATH of God, we know that God's love "endureth forever" while his wrath "for a moment" and we know that God identified Himself as a God of LOVE (even as LOVE itself) and that "true judgment" is to show mercy and compassion.

We reap what we sow and mercy is shown to those who show mercy, while the unmercidul and unforgiving reap coal of fire upon themselves and to them God reveals himself as unmerciful.

A very good friend of mine posted a study on judgment at CARM some time back and it was so good that I copied it and posted it with some of my own studied on an online blog. You might find it helpful, maybe? Or at least be able to use it to get a glimpse at an understanding of judgment is that neither "all loving" nor extremely "wrathful" (particularly to degree that some would go - even in some UR camps).

It's titled: How does The King of heaven deal with those who do not forgive. You can find it at the following link:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=368111335&blogId=466307247

(I would copy/paste it here, instead of directing you elsewhere, but I would lose all of the formatting and have to either reformat it or post it without and I find that the formatting (bold, underlins, colors, etc) helps (at least it does me).

Didn't mean to write so much, sorry.   :Oops:


Just wanted to let you know that you are not as alone as you think you might be when it comes to doubts, etc. Many of us have probably been there at one time or another. I pray that your "time" is coming soon.  :Pray:

Blessings,
Chrissie  :ginlove:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 02, 2009, 03:29:27 AM
Intimidating?
That will change.

That is what we are created to do — and it is a response to Him — not a first action on our part.

Ahh, to walk again with the Lord in the cool of the day!

Well, intimidating in the sense that it's something that I can't do - I've tried many times - and sometimes when I look at all those who are like that I begin to secretly have thoughts that maybe God doesn't want me as much as he wants others.  Which is an entirely un-Biblical thought, I know - but it's a persistent one nonetheless.

Quote from: Chris on October 02, 2009, 05:02:25 AM

Not to be discouraging (so I hope this is more encouraging than discouraging) but for as far back as I can remember I would pray to God to reveal himself to me so that I would "know" him (as others said that "they" did), but after many years of praying and begging and pleading with Him - to no avail - I gave up altogether and figured I would just find out when I die. And it wasn't until I was in my 30's (about 5 years ago) that God finally revealed himself to me in such a way that I did not doubt for a second that it was God reaching out to me. So, it is my experience that God can and will find us wherever we are, but it certainly doesn't come by demand or by any other timetable but His. Sometimes it doesn't even seem to come by prayer and seeking... because it does take so long, sometimes, unfortunately.  :gsigh:

I can definitely relate to the text I bolded, about giving up, in a different sense. I grew up always listening to people saying that they heard God say "this and that" to them, and I wanted to hear God too. I would try and listen for him, but I could never seem to decipher his words from my own thoughts in my head. Eventually though, I realized that rather than speak to me through my mind, he would speak to me through others or life circumstances, in answer to my prayers. So, since that revelation, I've more or less given up on hearing him "in my thoughts," but just continue to pray and hope for the best, even though I don't really hear any particular "calling" or "direction" in "my thoughts" from God. The closest thing that I've got to that, and I wouldn't even necessarily say it's in my thoughts, but rather my heart, is: love others. I feel that love is the absolute most important thing on this planet, and if God exists, and is love as the apostle John proclaimed, then the best thing I can do is love others. To me, there may be no other calling higher than this.  :boyheart: :girlheart:

Quote from: Tim B on October 02, 2009, 05:34:36 AM

Quote from: Chris on October 02, 2009, 05:02:25 AM

Not to be discouraging (so I hope this is more encouraging than discouraging) but for as far back as I can remember I would pray to God to reveal himself to me so that I would "know" him (as others said that "they" did), but after many years of praying and begging and pleading with Him - to no avail - I gave up altogether and figured I would just find out when I die. And it wasn't until I was in my 30's (about 5 years ago) that God finally revealed himself to me in such a way that I did not doubt for a second that it was God reaching out to me. So, it is my experience that God can and will find us wherever we are, but it certainly doesn't come by demand or by any other timetable but His. Sometimes it doesn't even seem to come by prayer and seeking... because it does take so long, sometimes, unfortunately.  :gsigh:

I can definitely relate to the text I bolded, about giving up, in a different sense. I grew up always listening to people saying that they heard God say "this and that" to them, and I wanted to hear God too. I would try and listen for him, but I could never seem to decipher his words from my own thoughts in my head. Eventually though, I realized that rather than speak to me through my mind, he would speak to me through others or life circumstances, in answer to my prayers. So, since that revelation, I've more or less given up on hearing him "in my thoughts," but just continue to pray and hope for the best, even though I don't really hear any particular "calling" or "direction" in "my thoughts" from God. The closest thing that I've got to that, and I wouldn't even necessarily say it's in my thoughts, but rather my heart, is: love others. I feel that love is the absolute most important thing on this planet, and if God exists, and is love as the apostle John proclaimed, then the best thing I can do is love others. To me, there may be no other calling higher than this.   :boyheart: :girlheart:

Your post made me smile, Tim. 
And the bolded REALLY made me smile.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 05:13:13 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 02, 2009, 03:29:27 AM
Intimidating?
That will change.

That is what we are created to do — and it is a response to Him — not a first action on our part.

Ahh, to walk again with the Lord in the cool of the day!

Well, intimidating in the sense that it's something that I can't do - I've tried many times - and sometimes when I look at all those who are like that I begin to secretly have thoughts that maybe God doesn't want me as much as he wants others.  Which is an entirely un-Biblical thought, I know - but it's a persistent one nonetheless.

I understand.
While never envious, I am amazed with people like J. Preston Eby and others who have been given a tremendous ability to communicate the scriptures.
That said, these abilities are gifts of the Spirit and nothing of their own doing.
And when we seek the Lord with all our heart we find ours.
The potter makes some vessels for honour and some dishonour.
If it's His desire that I live a life without fame — or fortune, who am I to argue? And nor do I care.
Righteousness, peace and joy are found in Him and His grace is always enough to ensure that we endure through all things — wherever we find ourselves along the path of mercy.

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 05:13:13 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 02, 2009, 03:29:27 AM
Intimidating?
That will change.

That is what we are created to do — and it is a response to Him — not a first action on our part.

Ahh, to walk again with the Lord in the cool of the day!

Well, intimidating in the sense that it's something that I can't do - I've tried many times - and sometimes when I look at all those who are like that I begin to secretly have thoughts that maybe God doesn't want me as much as he wants others.  Which is an entirely un-Biblical thought, I know - but it's a persistent one nonetheless.

Perhaps that part of themselves is hidden from view.
Maybe that is the main difference, some conceal it, some let it show.
Many people don't feel comfortable showing what they consider to be weakness.
That may be all it is. Some folks only feel comfortable being "weak" in front of God, not others.
"weak" meaning having doubts, insecurities, going through dark times, etc.

And fight off that persistent thought. You know it's not true. Though it may whisper in your ear... you know it's a lie. I've had similar thoughts so I know where you're coming from.

Remember each of us have a purpose. We should never compare our journey with anothers. It's something I have to remind myself every single day of my life. We are all on a unique journey and our life cannot be compared with anyone else's. God is doing unique things through each and every life. We can't see the whole picture now.


Our weakness, God's glory. (http://www.breakpoint.org/features-columns/articles/1158-our-weaknesses-gods-glory)

peace to ya...
I like your posts.
and am Glad you're here.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 02, 2009, 05:55:21 AM
Righteousness, peace and joy are found in Him and His grace is always enough to ensure that we endure through all things — wherever we find ourselves along the path of mercy.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Tim B on October 02, 2009, 05:34:36 AM

Quote from: Chris on October 02, 2009, 05:02:25 AM

Not to be discouraging (so I hope this is more encouraging than discouraging) but for as far back as I can remember I would pray to God to reveal himself to me so that I would "know" him (as others said that "they" did), but after many years of praying and begging and pleading with Him - to no avail - I gave up altogether and figured I would just find out when I die. And it wasn't until I was in my 30's (about 5 years ago) that God finally revealed himself to me in such a way that I did not doubt for a second that it was God reaching out to me. So, it is my experience that God can and will find us wherever we are, but it certainly doesn't come by demand or by any other timetable but His. Sometimes it doesn't even seem to come by prayer and seeking... because it does take so long, sometimes, unfortunately.  :gsigh:

I can definitely relate to the text I bolded, about giving up, in a different sense. I grew up always listening to people saying that they heard God say "this and that" to them, and I wanted to hear God too. I would try and listen for him, but I could never seem to decipher his words from my own thoughts in my head. Eventually though, I realized that rather than speak to me through my mind, he would speak to me through others or life circumstances, in answer to my prayers. So, since that revelation, I've more or less given up on hearing him "in my thoughts," but just continue to pray and hope for the best, even though I don't really hear any particular "calling" or "direction" in "my thoughts" from God. The closest thing that I've got to that, and I wouldn't even necessarily say it's in my thoughts, but rather my heart, is: love others. I feel that love is the absolute most important thing on this planet, and if God exists, and is love as the apostle John proclaimed, then the best thing I can do is love others. To me, there may be no other calling higher than this.  :boyheart: :girlheart:

I absolutely agree!!  :thumbsup:

It is by/through LOVE that we are "made perfect". Not even "all knowledge" trumps LOVE.  :grouppray:

I don't "hear" from God "that way" either. If he does speak to me through my mind/thoughts I'd have to say that it's generally through the scriptures, as I read and study them and grow (hopefully, by the will and grace of God) in understanding.

Quote from: Tim B on October 02, 2009, 05:34:36 AM
I grew up always listening to people saying that they heard God say "this and that" to them, and I wanted to hear God too. I would try and listen for him, but I could never seem to decipher his words from my own thoughts in my head.

:cloud9: There is definitely merit in the other part of your post to be sure, but I just wanted to touch on this, if I may. I learned to hear Him to begin with thru reading His Word. I had asked Him early on for His Spirit to teach me, not having any clue how that could happen, but I believed the scripture that we need not that any man teach us, but that He would teach us.

So the way it started was, I would be reading a particular part of scripture, when another part of scripture would instantly come into my mind out of seemingly nowhere, and it was not readily obvious that it was connected to the first one I was reading. But I found, time and time again, when I went to the passage that came into my mind as a thought that I recognized was not mine (since I was concentrating on what I was reading), that both passages were connected in some way.

A few dozen times of this, and I knew I had my answer to prayer. He speaks as a thought, which initially, until we really know His character and His Word, is usually only scripture. In a few months after conversion, a friend and I started having weekly bible studies, and we prayed for people for everything under the sun.

Pretty soon, other thoughts were coming in, in the same still "voice" I had learned to recognize from studying the scriptures, only this time it was about specifics of healings they needed that they did not express,  or things in the person's life (word of knowledge). My friend was experiencing the same thing, in the same pattern of Word first, then praying for others, as far as learning how to hear Him.

So I'm saying this to comfort and encourage all those that think they don't hear Him. It's entirely possible and even extremely probable that you ARE hearing Him at least in the study of the Word, and just don't yet realize it. He absolutely does speak to us in a lot of different ways, as well as this. No righteous man would have a child then never speak to it, and man is not more righteous than God. Blessings....

God often speaks to us through simple realities.
He is a child's smile and the distant star.
A flower that suddenly attracts our attention.
And the sound of our name,
on the lips of those we love.

Quote from: sparrow on October 02, 2009, 12:46:01 AM
p.s. Willie, can I be the green one? Green is my favorite color. Thanks!  :winkgrin:

Sparrows usually are brown.
Green sparrows usually are called parakeets.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 02, 2009, 07:33:59 AM

Quote from: sparrow on October 02, 2009, 12:46:01 AM
p.s. Willie, can I be the green one? Green is my favorite color. Thanks!  :winkgrin:

Sparrows usually are brown.
Green sparrows usually are called parakeets.

I'm an enigma.







:laughing7:

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 05:13:13 AMI've tried many times - and sometimes when I look at all those who are like that I begin to secretly have thoughts that maybe God doesn't want me as much as he wants others.  Which is an entirely un-Biblical thought, I know - but it's a persistent one nonetheless.

Want or shows? I think elect is something Biblical. (not the ET type)
So I think it's not that odd you don't see everyone equally close to God.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 02, 2009, 05:55:21 AM
I understand.
While never envious, I am amazed with people like J. Preston Eby and others who have been given a tremendous ability to communicate the scriptures.
That said, these abilities are gifts of the Spirit and nothing of their own doing.
And when we seek the Lord with all our heart we find ours.
The potter makes some vessels for honour and some dishonour.
If it's His desire that I live a life without fame — or fortune, who am I to argue? And nor do I care.
Righteousness, peace and joy are found in Him and His grace is always enough to ensure that we endure through all things — wherever we find ourselves along the path of mercy.

I know, and I don't curse God or my fate or anything like that.  Like I said elsewhere, it's just painful sometimes.  And, at other times, confusing.

Quote from: sparrow on October 02, 2009, 05:58:19 AM
Perhaps that part of themselves is hidden from view.
Maybe that is the main difference, some conceal it, some let it show.
Many people don't feel comfortable showing what they consider to be weakness.
That may be all it is. Some folks only feel comfortable being "weak" in front of God, not others.
"weak" meaning having doubts, insecurities, going through dark times, etc.

And fight off that persistent thought. You know it's not true. Though it may whisper in your ear... you know it's a lie. I've had similar thoughts so I know where you're coming from.

Remember each of us have a purpose. We should never compare our journey with anothers. It's something I have to remind myself every single day of my life. We are all on a unique journey and our life cannot be compared with anyone else's. God is doing unique things through each and every life. We can't see the whole picture now.

Our weakness, God's glory. (http://www.breakpoint.org/features-columns/articles/1158-our-weaknesses-gods-glory)

peace to ya...
I like your posts.
and am Glad you're here.

Well, for me I suppose it's almost a sort of a perverse hope rather than a belief.  I suppose everyone has their own demons in life, and mine is a persistent feeling of inferiority, of not deserving the same as everyone else.  It's not as bad as it used to be - during my teenage years I managed to lose both my girlfriend and almost all the friends I had because I was such a depressant that after a while no one wanted to deal with me anymore.  But it's still around.

In some sense, it's a blessing - it makes it very easy to willingly and happily give to others what they need with no expectation whatsoever of repayment.  And my episode as a teenager made it exceptionally easy to be empathetic and compassionate towards others who are in pain.  So, in that respect, I would certainly prefer it without a moment's hesitation to the other extreme.  But, in other ways, it's a problem - however readily I may give away, I find it very hard to be OK with the receipt of a gift that I know I can't repay in full.  And I tend to feel guilty asking people for favors, preferring instead not to be a bother to anyone and to try to work things out by myself.

So, it's not really that I need to believe... it's more that I need to want what we are promised.  It's kind of funny - when preachers talking about eternal torment say that no one deserves heaven, but that it is a free gift that we ought to embrace warmly, most people stumble over the first part, assuring themselves that they do deserve heaven.  I, however, stumble over the second part.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 02, 2009, 07:39:11 AM
Want or shows? I think elect is something Biblical. (not the ET type)
So I think it's not that odd you don't see everyone equally close to God.

I suppose, in thinking about the verses you likely have in mind, that that would follow.

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 08:17:00 AM
Well, for me I suppose it's almost a sort of a perverse hope rather than a belief.  I suppose everyone has their own demons in life, and mine is a persistent feeling of inferiority, of not deserving the same as everyone else.  It's not as bad as it used to be - during my teenage years I managed to lose both my girlfriend and almost all the friends I had because I was such a depressant that after a while no one wanted to deal with me anymore.  But it's still around.

In some sense, it's a blessing - it makes it very easy to willingly and happily give to others what they need with no expectation whatsoever of repayment.  And my episode as a teenager made it exceptionally easy to be empathetic and compassionate towards others who are in pain.  So, in that respect, I would certainly prefer it without a moment's hesitation to the other extreme.  But, in other ways, it's a problem - however readily I may give away, I find it very hard to be OK with the receipt of a gift that I know I can't repay in full.  And I tend to feel guilty asking people for favors, preferring instead not to be a bother to anyone and to try to work things out by myself.

So, it's not really that I need to believe... it's more that I need to want what we are promised.  It's kind of funny - when preachers talking about eternal torment say that no one deserves heaven, but that it is a free gift that we ought to embrace warmly, most people stumble over the first part, assuring themselves that they do deserve heaven.  I, however, stumble over the second part.

Y'know what..that all makes perfect sense to me.
Thanks for sharing more about your perspective.
I've had a bit of that "inferiority" gig going on over here on my path, too.
But you're right in that it has definitely cultivated compassion and empathy for others.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 08:17:00 AM
So, it's not really that I need to believe... it's more that I need to want what we are promised.  It's kind of funny - when preachers talking about eternal torment say that no one deserves heaven, but that it is a free gift that we ought to embrace warmly, most people stumble over the first part, assuring themselves that they do deserve heaven.  I, however, stumble over the second part.

:cloud9: You know, when you're in the midst of it, it's very easy to feel like you're the only one. But I honestly don't know of anyone that has not felt this way, and it comes from a spirit of unworthiness the enemy of our souls fostered upon us, and it is a lie.

No, we are not worthy because of anything we have done or could do, but we ARE WORTHY because in Him we are kings. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. We are sons of the King. Our life is hid in Christ. For one thing that means our true identity is hid in Christ, and we must take everything He says we are to heart in faith.

We are more than conquerors because we are sons of the Most High. Lift your head up, because you ARE worthy in Him, and He is appearing in your heavens more and more with each passing day. You were made for such a time as this, for the King to have a vessel to be seen in. Blessings to you......

That was beautiful, Cardinal.. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sparrow on October 02, 2009, 08:58:58 AM
Y'know what..that all makes perfect sense to me.
Thanks for sharing more about your perspective.
I've had a bit of that "inferiority" gig going on over here on my path, too.
But you're right in that it has definitely cultivated compassion and empathy for others.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Cardinal on October 02, 2009, 09:18:11 AM
:cloud9: You know, when you're in the midst of it, it's very easy to feel like you're the only one. But I honestly don't know of anyone that has not felt this way, and it comes from a spirit of unworthiness the enemy of our souls fostered upon us, and it is a lie.

No, we are not worthy because of anything we have done or could do, but we ARE WORTHY because in Him we are kings. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. We are sons of the King. Our life is hid in Christ. For one thing that means our true identity is hid in Christ, and we must take everything He says we are to heart in faith.

We are more than conquerors because we are sons of the Most High. Lift your head up, because you ARE worthy in Him, and He is appearing in your heavens more and more with each passing day. You were made for such a time as this, for the King to have a vessel to be seen in. Blessings to you......

Well, thanks; it helps a lot just to be reminded that there are those out there who understand and feel the same.  And I mean that sincerely - I think often when I'm out interacting with other people who have their "public faces" on, it can be difficult to keep in mind that I'm not the only person in the world who has problems I don't show to the masses.

Shadow, i think your quite a lot like me.  You tend to hear a 'bad' thing in the bible or something that does'nt make sense to you and you get yourself in a state about it.

Remember i was saying, how can a God of love command armies to kill men women and children etc?  Well apparently he had his reasons.

Have a read of this...


The Egyptian babies you speak of were not "slaughtered"; they simply died. YHWH ordered the death of all male firstborn in Egypt because of PHAROAH'S refusal to let God's Chosen People (the Jews) leave Egypt and their Egyptian bondage. If you'll remember, God gave Pharoah NINE OTHER CHANCES before hard-headed Pharoah finally got the picture that GOD was in charge! NINE CHANCES! Ask yourself this: If someone was holding your family captive, abusing them in various ways, and making them perform slave labor - how many chances would YOU give before finally "zapping" the perpetrator?

YHWH ordered the death of those people in the land of Caanan because - as He had told Moshe (Moses) long before - the land would be given to the people of Israel (the Jews). The fact was, at that time, anyone who wasn't an Israelite was considered to be a heathen/pagan because they did NOT worship the true Creator, and therefore, God had no allegiance to them. (Why should He???) You can rest assured that God would have spared a given city in Canaan if there had been 10 righteous people living in it — or at least save the righteous people as he did at Sodom and Gomorrah. Rahab and her family in Jericho were spared in Joshua 6, although the city and the other people were destroyed. So we can establish that either no one or a tiny handful of innocent people were killed during the course of the conquest of Canaan. Of course, any innocent, Godly people would have gone to heaven and not be vexed by the wickedness around them, so even that could be considered a "deliverance".

So, "why kill these wicked people at all?" Consider this: if someone in your neighborhood occasionally killed children and sacrificed them on an altar, would you want this person to continue living there? Most people would decide that such a person deserves the death penalty. God responds the same way. The fact is that God ALWAYS finds out the truth (for instance, read the entire story of Sodom, and you will see) and then renders fairly in His execution of judgment. If you are FOR God, then you have nothing to worry about: Even in death you will be better off, for you will get to spend eternity with Him.

Apparently in other places God had to get rid of certain 'races' (Nephilim?) because they were so evil right down to their bloodline, people were killing their babies and putting them in Jars, having sex under crazy statues while their babies were roasting in flames to be sacraficed to other Gods, some were eating their own children....SO...What im saying is that when God tells his people to slay 'everyone and everything' in a particular place, i guess we just have to accept his judgements as being righteous, because we dont know the full story of what was going on, and if we read the book of Jonah, about how God saved that city...

Jonah 4
Jonah's Anger at the Lord 's Compassion
1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. 3 Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."

4 But the LORD replied, "Have you any right to be angry?"

5 Jonah went out and sat down at a place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the LORD God provided a vine and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the vine. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the vine so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah's head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, "It would be better for me to die than to live."

9 But God said to Jonah, "Do you have a right to be angry about the vine?"
      "I do," he said. "I am angry enough to die."

10 But the LORD said, "You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?"


And then in the story of Sodom and Gomorah we hear how God even listens to men when it comes to mercy and judgement...

20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"

26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
      "If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
      He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
      He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
      He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
      He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.


I love you Shadow, but try not to be like me...quick to judge and get yourself in a silly panic.  Sometimes we just have to accept that we dont have all the answers but be 'grounded' in the fact that God is good.

 :cloud9: That was really a good balanced article IMO, Marc........thanks for posting that. It put into words for me why I believe about the OT the way I do. He is righteous and just and compassionate, no matter what it appears to our carnal mindset. Blessings....

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 03:22:35 AM
Personally, I'm glad to have some around who have doubts or uncertainties - being around only those who seem to have no doubts or uncertainty whatsoever and who seem to spend every waking moment glorifying God can be, I am forced to admit, a little intimidating. :laughing7:

Even after believing the truth, it took me a long time to be confident about it and trust in it. It took years actually.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 02, 2009, 02:58:22 PM
The Egyptian babies you speak of were not "slaughtered"; they simply died. YHWH ordered the death of all male firstborn in Egypt because of PHAROAH'S refusal to let God's Chosen People (the Jews) leave Egypt and their Egyptian bondage. If you'll remember, God gave Pharoah NINE OTHER CHANCES before hard-headed Pharoah finally got the picture that GOD was in charge! NINE CHANCES! Ask yourself this: If someone was holding your family captive, abusing them in various ways, and making them perform slave labor - how many chances would YOU give before finally "zapping" the perpetrator?

I'm not really sure if I understand this explanation.  It talks about "zapping the perpetrator", but the perpetrator was the Pharaoh.  The Pharaoh wasn't "zapped"; every male firstborn was.  This would be akin, if someone were holding my family captive, to killing every single firstborn male in the town in which he lives and somehow acting as though that teaches him a lesson.

There's also the fact that God even directly states that he will harden the Pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the people go (Exodus 4:21), and then sends these punishments to all of Egypt as a result.  If you prevented someone from doing something and then punished the entire town in which he lives for not doing what you have prevented him from doing, I don't think many would think that that made much sense.

It's for the above reason that I still struggle to explain this particular story in the Bible.

Perhaps it has to do with the natural manifestation of spiritual truths? At least that is how I see it - or "reason" through it.

So when it comes to the death of every man, woman, and child, and even beast of the field, I see this a depiction of the spiritual truth that "all flesh" must be destroyed.

The same is true of the death of "the first born". Life and immortality was never mean to come through the first Adam (the first-born), but through the Last Adam (the second man).

It is "the second man" (that "hidden man of the heart", that "inward man" that must increase as we decrease, that "new creature" created in Jesus Christ) that is "the Lord from heaven" (and we His body .... ONE NEW MAN).

Maybe that can be seen as "excusing" God or something, but certainly there is a reason for our existence if, in fact, there is a creator... and a reason for the evil that we see and experience in this world (as "an experience of evil" was given unto men to humble them, say the scriptures).

Just my  :2c:

QuoteI love you Shadow, but try not to be like me...quick to judge and get yourself in a silly panic.  Sometimes we just have to accept that we dont have all the answers but be 'grounded' in the fact that God is good.

Thanks for your post, am glad you are here too :bgdance:

I have to confess though I can see where Gab is coming from with his response though, maybe in time I'll see it differently

For what its worth, although I have doubts at times, I underwent 18 months of sheer hell due to the ET doctrine, and I was led to this forum over a year ago, I know how you feel you want UR to be true, but you also have to KNOW that it's true, but there must be a reason why I went through such an intense nightmare, the thing is though I was forced to look elsewhere as the ET churches couldn't answer me, now I'm finding their doctrines don't make sense anymore, but UR does.

Here is a book I'm going to read which I think could answer a lot of questions we have here (somehow I've missed this before)

Hansons 4 works.pdf  (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/HansonsFourWorks.pdf)

The Bible Hell
                                     
Aion and Aionios
                                     
Bible Threatenings Explained
                                     
Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation

PS thanks for all the supportive comments everyone posted in this thread, I really didn't know so many people cared :HeartThrob: :bgdance:, I hope one day I can return the favour to someone that may need it

Quote from: Shadow on October 02, 2009, 10:56:45 PM

QuoteI love you Shadow, but try not to be like me...quick to judge and get yourself in a silly panic.  Sometimes we just have to accept that we dont have all the answers but be 'grounded' in the fact that God is good.

Thanks for your post, am glad you are here too :bgdance:

I have to confess though I can see where Gab is coming from with his response though, maybe in time I'll see it differently

For what its worth, although I have doubts at times, I underwent 18 months of sheer hell due to the ET doctrine, and I was led to this forum over a year ago, I know how you feel you want UR to be true, but you also have to KNOW that it's true, but there must be a reason why I went through such an intense nightmare, the thing is though I was forced to look elsewhere as the ET churches couldn't answer me, now I'm finding their doctrines don't make sense anymore, but UR does.

Here is a book I'm going to read which I think could answer a lot of questions we have here (somehow I've missed this before)

Hansons 4 works.pdf  (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/HansonsFourWorks.pdf)

The Bible Hell
                                     
Aion and Aionios
                                     
Bible Threatenings Explained
                                     
Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation

See there you go again, you heard my version of the story and then you heard Gab's and Gabs version made you doubt!  I saw it!

The fact is we cant know everything!  Nobody does! It's not for us to know! 

All we can do is love each other and help each other and hope...

....Who is going to accuse us if we do that? 
Will God punish us just because we tried? 
I hardly think so! 
Lets keep trying and keep each other strong.

Jesus said "Forgive them father, they don't know what they're doing!"

That about says it all doesn't it? 
Even as he was being hung up by the people God had created he was still forgiving them.

Everyone is different in life, everyone has so many beliefs and faiths and if you were to tell all your problems to someone, more often than not, nobody would understand because most people haven't been what you have been through but one thing is for sure, each person would help you in their own little way.  You have to accept that help each person offers, even if it doesn't seem like much.  When the chips are down most humans are pretty damn good at helping others albeit in their own way.

If you were to call 100 random people in the phone book and ask them how they would help you each person would give you a different answer.
What people mostly agree on is that the world could use a bit more love in it.

It's time you face a fact here. 
RELIGION cant help you, if anything it will just keep giving you more problems to sort out, and you know that until your head can grapple them and sort them out THERE IS NO PEACE.
It's love you have to keep striving for, then everything else makes sense.

You have a chance today to make a difference in someones life. 
You have a chance today to love people, you can choose today between love or fear.
You can choose today 'death or life'.

YOU have to make that choice.  You can't lye on your bed all day hoping for a miracle.  Sometimes God doesn't help people until they first help themselves.

I'm telling you right now.  I love you.  I really do, and if i do, then you are guaranteed that God does.  I'm sitting here right now, and believe it or not, i feel your sorrow, i feel your pain.  I want to help you.
I'm asking you now, please don't despair or cry...You know what I want you to do instead? 

I want you to think about someone special in your life.  Someone you really love and care about.  Think about all the things theyve done for you, about all the happy times yous have had together.  DONT think about the times they let you down or you let them down!  IT DOESN'T MATTER!
IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER!  IT's GONE! In the past!  Swish! Its over!

This is a NEW DAY, a day for you to shine like never before.  DON'T hold onto all those contradictory passages in your mind....John said this, Paul said that blah blah blah.  Don't try to figure it out because the bottom line is that Jesus said "Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing".

Look around you!  Have a good long look at people...Do any of them 'really' know what they are doing?
I spoke to a Christian tonight who has been one for years, he classes himself as one and has faith in Jesus, but he didn't know a lot of scripture at all!  Not many people really know what theyre doing!  Jesus doesnt hate them...He forgives them!  Love ALWAYS forgives, dammit!

Jesus never hated anyone, he certainly didn't hate people who were trying their best to find love.  If you met Jesus right now, he would cry with you, he would hold you and tell you that he loves you.  THAT you CAN believe because it's true and you KNOW its true!  Do you really think the same one who said "Forgive them father they dont know what theyre doing", is going to let anyone come to any harm if he can help it?  (And he spoke the words of God, so basically theyre in agreement so God CAN help it).

We don't have all the answers, all we know is that LOVE is the strongest force in the universe.


I for one am not letting you go until your better, you can bally well bank on that, I'll always be here for you, because I love you.

Anytime day or night you want to talk you just let me know, and if im online ill gladly chat, here, on a phone, on msn, anywhere you like, but i WILL NOT for one second let you be alone, and you arent to let people be alone either.  Deal?

Were all in this together, all on Earth to help each other.  In the end, sometimes that is the only thing that makes sense.  But when you KNOW THAT, the rest starts to make sense as well.

Take care and be strong.

Ya know J, I like what you wrote.

cp

Quote from: claypot on October 03, 2009, 01:54:55 AM
Ya know J, I like what you wrote.

cp

wow. Me too!

Quoteif he is an ET God then I'm doomed

if ET were true, we were all doomed, imagine spending eternity with Hitler in a kind of golden cage, while you are well, you know that an everlasting Ausschwitz is just next to the door.

If God would torture anybody to infinity, I suppose heaven would be hell alike.

Jesus' character as presented in the gospels, speaks at most for universalism - more than any verse, I can't imagine Jesus torturing anybody to infinity.

about the book of Enoch, I examined the Greek text and it does not necessarily teach ET, some ancient Jewish teachers (Maimonides) interpreted it as teaching annihilation.

edit: big mistake, I wrote UR instead ET

Quote from: claypot on October 03, 2009, 01:54:55 AM
Ya know J, I like what you wrote.

cp

Its easier said than done!  Thats the real problem!  But oh, how God is humbling me in my life right now!

Quote from: sven on October 04, 2009, 11:48:28 AM
Jesus' character as presented in the gospels, speaks at most for universalism - more than any verse, I can't imagine Jesus torturing anybody to infinity.

If Jesus had a ET character He would not just have performed healing miracles but also destructive miracles on His opponents.
He would not have said "forgive them Father they don't know what they are doing"
He would have said "Father don't touch them they are mine!"

 :cloud9: ROFLOL.....no kidding, WW........ :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 10:11:56 PM

Quote from: sven on October 04, 2009, 11:48:28 AM
Jesus' character as presented in the gospels, speaks at most for universalism - more than any verse, I can't imagine Jesus torturing anybody to infinity.

If Jesus had a ET character He would not just have performed healing miracles but also destructive miracles on His opponents.
He would not have said "forgive them Father they don't know what they are doing"
He would have said "Father don't touch them they are mine!"

ha! so true!

Quote from: Cardinal on October 02, 2009, 09:18:11 AM

Quote from: Gab on October 02, 2009, 08:17:00 AM
So, it's not really that I need to believe... it's more that I need to want what we are promised.  It's kind of funny - when preachers talking about eternal torment say that no one deserves heaven, but that it is a free gift that we ought to embrace warmly, most people stumble over the first part, assuring themselves that they do deserve heaven.  I, however, stumble over the second part.

:cloud9: You know, when you're in the midst of it, it's very easy to feel like you're the only one. But I honestly don't know of anyone that has not felt this way, and it comes from a spirit of unworthiness the enemy of our souls fostered upon us, and it is a lie.

No, we are not worthy because of anything we have done or could do, but we ARE WORTHY because in Him we are kings. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. We are sons of the King. Our life is hid in Christ. For one thing that means our true identity is hid in Christ, and we must take everything He says we are to heart in faith.

We are more than conquerors because we are sons of the Most High. Lift your head up, because you ARE worthy in Him, and He is appearing in your heavens more and more with each passing day. You were made for such a time as this, for the King to have a vessel to be seen in. Blessings to you......

WOW! This is worth a  :bottlebump: for sure!!

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 04, 2009, 10:11:56 PM

Quote from: sven on October 04, 2009, 11:48:28 AM
Jesus' character as presented in the gospels, speaks at most for universalism - more than any verse, I can't imagine Jesus torturing anybody to infinity.

If Jesus had a ET character He would not just have performed healing miracles but also destructive miracles on His opponents.
He would not have said "forgive them Father they don't know what they are doing"
He would have said "Father don't touch them they are mine!"

Hahahaha touché!

I grew up around ETers and "lost faith", though I had never really known God anyways. He allowed me to go and watched over me as I turned from him, shedding every notion I had. Finally I sought him on my own, without church, or even scripture, or the influences of men.. I yearned for the truth and I didn't try to see it how I wanted to or how I thought I should. I emptied myself and asked him to fill me. And for the first time I very clearly encountered him.. & that's how I came to US. Maybe you're searching too hard in the wrong places! I think it's good to take a step back & just seek him.

Quite often, God does things differently than the way WE feel he should have done them.
If you have a leg filled with cancer, better to get the leg cut off because the cancer will spread to the rest of the body.
Sin is like a cancer. In the old times, if the cancer(sin) were not completely removed, it would have eventually consumed all of God's people.
If I had a 55 gallon drum of sludge and added a pint of 100% pure water to it, I would still have sludge.
If I had a 55 gallon drum of 100% pure water and added a pint of sludge to it, I would have another 55 gallon drum of sludge.

I rest assured that God will always be fair and do what is right. The Bible says that God hardened Pharoah's heart - was Pharoah to blame. What about when Paroah's first born son was killed? I am convinced God works everyone in his plan. Many a time God has used Satan to show us things we need to know - like with Job and the temptations of Jesus in the desert.

Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 09:46:33 PM
Being a different member of different forums, I have seen numerous depictions of God which have left me confused

I do know this much though that churches don't preach an accurate message, which results in many false conversions such as myself, when thought I was a christian, I hoped that God loved me, however I've never been 100% sure of my salvation, I don't think I've ever truly known God, I've always been an agnostic theist (I believe in God but I don't KNOW God), it's not because I haven't wanted to, it's perhaps been because I've never been chosen

What confuses me is that many people see God as all loving, I don't know if this is perhaps where a great deal of my problem lies, I've never felt love and acceptance from my own parents, I've always been an outcast, don't worry I'm not having a pity party, I've come to terms with the fact that I'm not dear to my parents and being an outcast, in fact I can welcome it with open arms if only I could have the assurance in my heart that God has predestined all to be saved

When people speak of UR it seems right and it makes sense, however is it real or could it be a gospel built on false hope, there are so many passages that speak of the wrath of God that one cannot overlook, not to mention apocryphal books like the Book of Enoch, and 2Esdras that clearly spell out ET, in such a way that it was preplanned by God (surely this is largely responsible for the concept of ET to have taken a foothold in the first place)

Code:

Pro 16:25  There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.


However I find the ETers very unloving, and they seem totally unbothered by the ET concept and come with phrases like "Gods ways are not our ways", or God is not only love, he is also holy and cannot allow sin in his presence which begs the question

WHY DID HE BRING US INTO THIS MESS AS SINNERS, WITHOUT AS MUCH AS CONSULTING US FIRST, THEN CONDEMN US FOR SOMETHING HE CREATED US AS IN THE FIRST PLACE

What scares me is that I'm figuratively stumbling in the dark as I haven't had the revelation many others have had, the Eters say they have this intimate relationship with God, so do the URers and the Annihilationists, but they can't all be right

The crux of the matter is that if ET or annihilation are true, then God never intended to save all mankind, however if so, annihilation at least shows much more mercy and compassion for the victim than ET and I could accept an annihilation God, although I would prefer an UR God

The thing is all 3 positions have scripture to back them up

The thing is I have to try find the true character of God, if he is an ET God then I'm doomed, however I won't go on ex-c forums and make a mockery as this is not my style, I will try put this behind me and try to live the rest of my life as best I know how, and try to enjoy it

I just hope that UR is true and that God will reveal it to me, so that I can know without a shadow of a doubt, one thing I do notice is that URers are far more loving and less vindictive than ETers (I could never be an ETer, I would have to become agnostic or deist)

I want those that wronged me to be in heaven one day, I don't want them to go to an eternal hell

I hope you can understand my dilemma

I think your confusion is shared by many people. However, I think what may help is to consider that UR, ET, religion in general, all religion, is first based on the faith, the hope, that it's all true.

No one knows. If it were a fact without question it would be the fact of...Rather than the faith of.

I see the quandary regarding feeling God speak to you personally, inspire you to realize the existence of that creative power, is exacerbated if we expect it to come by the book. In other words, if I hold to the absolute fundamental of the whole of the Christian Bible and wait for the God described within that tome to reveal himself, while realizing there is no gender pronoun applicable to a spirit, (he, she) , I'm boxing myself in expecting one idea to show itself to me personally. Because I've read it appeared in that way, through the scriptures, generations ago.

Instead, what I find helps me to have a relationship with the all powerful spirit that is God is to let go of my expectations and my doubts. To be open and yet aware of the message I may receive.

See if this sounds familiar to you. Coincidence.
Have you noticed since you began your spiritual quest that things happen that seem to be inter-related in some way. As if there's this common thread that joins everything that occurs or some things that occur, together?
Something happens right now and there's this hint within it that reminds you of something like it that happened earlier.
For instance, and this sounds trivial however it helped me to see how that slogan that is so often thrown about when people speak of spiritual relationship, actually means something; "There is only one of us" & "Everything is connected".
Sounds like bumper stickers text doesn't it? And yet, just the other day in the morning I saw this guy on TV who was talking about in the coming election his vote was going for the Democrats, so he could have a better future.
When asked to expound on that he related how he had just graduated college and was getting his wardrobe together for his first big job garnered due to the school transcripts he had earned just prior. He told how he found brand new dress shoes at the local Goodwill but they were a half size too small. He bought them anyway, figuring with a shoe stretcher over the weekend he could work them into his size in time for his first day of work. Meanwhile, his purchase was due to his saving his money to repay the student loan he was paying on for the education that allowed him to get that first big paying job.

I remember thinking that was pretty nifty. Shoes that had never been worn, still had the tags on them and he was blessed to afford them at Goodwill and patient enough to stretch them out to his liking.
That night I went to the local department store looking for a new pair of house slippers. There was one ballet style left that sold as two pair for the price of one. I wear a size 7/8, while the cardboard cutout tag they were attached to denoted they were a 9/10. I figured since they were ballet style they'd probably run small. And for the price it couldn't be beat even though they were a size or two larger than I needed.
I got them home removed them from the cardboard display hanger, looked at the tag inside the inner sole and they were...a size 7/8.

In that instant I remembered that man on TV and his shoes. A story that may seem trivial and yet for me at least helped reiterate the message we are all related. We are all interconnected. That we all have a relationship with the source responsible for our being here. We can no more remove ourselves from that relationship and the innate conversation that is always available than we can remove ourselves from the DNA of our parents who made us.

My point being, be open. Don't live with expectations your dialog with God will follow what others have related of their own in scripture. Scripture, we're told, was derived from communication with the Holy Spirit. What that is, that power, is available at all times to everyone. Just let it flow. Be aware, watch for the signs that show you links , interrelatipnships to time and events and happenings that seemingly overlap or bear strikingly similar characteristics. See what that common thread is and perhaps you'll glean the message you're intended to read there.

One of the best salves I've found that helped lift the confusion fundamentalist dogma implied in my family life, as we were all raised southern Baptist, is the CD by Neale Donald Walsch. The author of the "Conversations with God" series. It's called, "The Journey". It's one of the most wonderful conversations I've heard because for me it resonates with what I've learned over the years as I've found my walk with God to be so much more than that what dogma would have mapped out for me had I been a traditionalist and followed in my families footsteps in matters of faith.
You are a fact. You are here for a reason. You are sacred. This earth is your church, the house of the Holy, as is your body. And the creator of it all is your universal eternal parent that is always in communication with you, even when you look in the mirror into your own eyes and see it's power there. Open, trust, and listen. You've never been alone or apart from the truth of the matter.

God Bless You.

Quote from: missplaced on August 11, 2012, 08:39:06 AM
I grew up around ETers and "lost faith", though I had never really known God anyways. He allowed me to go and watched over me as I turned from him, shedding every notion I had. Finally I sought him on my own, without church, or even scripture, or the influences of men.. I yearned for the truth and I didn't try to see it how I wanted to or how I thought I should. I emptied myself and asked him to fill me. And for the first time I very clearly encountered him.. & that's how I came to US. Maybe you're searching too hard in the wrong places! I think it's good to take a step back & just seek him.

What I find amazing about how God works in each one of us as individuals is the diversity of how we have all come to our understanding of UR.
When I first experienced what I did, I went straight to church, from there God taught me their understanding, He then took me out of the church, through the changing of my career, and it was then that God slowly emptied me of the first (old) understanding and replaced it with the new.

Being emptied is what it is all about, emptied of what any man can and would say about God (including us sometimes). I myself understand both points of view completely and it is because of that God easily points out what is truth and what is not, knowing that I will see it and recognize it because of what He has done in me.

He did not pour new wine into an old wineskin, new wine has to go into a new wineskin. Be emptied and God will transform you into the new wineskin that will not burst when the new wine (new understanding) is poured in.

Love hearing how He works in all of us, and I also mean those of the church, for God even uses them for the purpose of keeping our faith strong. Besides, it just gives us more people we can forgive.

Quote from: LordsDaughter on September 06, 2012, 02:18:24 AM

Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 09:46:33 PM
Being a different member of different forums, I have seen numerous depictions of God which have left me confused

I do know this much though that churches don't preach an accurate message, which results in many false conversions such as myself, when thought I was a christian, I hoped that God loved me, however I've never been 100% sure of my salvation, I don't think I've ever truly known God, I've always been an agnostic theist (I believe in God but I don't KNOW God), it's not because I haven't wanted to, it's perhaps been because I've never been chosen

What confuses me is that many people see God as all loving, I don't know if this is perhaps where a great deal of my problem lies, I've never felt love and acceptance from my own parents, I've always been an outcast, don't worry I'm not having a pity party, I've come to terms with the fact that I'm not dear to my parents and being an outcast, in fact I can welcome it with open arms if only I could have the assurance in my heart that God has predestined all to be saved

When people speak of UR it seems right and it makes sense, however is it real or could it be a gospel built on false hope, there are so many passages that speak of the wrath of God that one cannot overlook, not to mention apocryphal books like the Book of Enoch, and 2Esdras that clearly spell out ET, in such a way that it was preplanned by God (surely this is largely responsible for the concept of ET to have taken a foothold in the first place)

Code:

Pro 16:25  There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is the ways of death.


However I find the ETers very unloving, and they seem totally unbothered by the ET concept and come with phrases like "Gods ways are not our ways", or God is not only love, he is also holy and cannot allow sin in his presence which begs the question

WHY DID HE BRING US INTO THIS MESS AS SINNERS, WITHOUT AS MUCH AS CONSULTING US FIRST, THEN CONDEMN US FOR SOMETHING HE CREATED US AS IN THE FIRST PLACE

What scares me is that I'm figuratively stumbling in the dark as I haven't had the revelation many others have had, the Eters say they have this intimate relationship with God, so do the URers and the Annihilationists, but they can't all be right

The crux of the matter is that if ET or annihilation are true, then God never intended to save all mankind, however if so, annihilation at least shows much more mercy and compassion for the victim than ET and I could accept an annihilation God, although I would prefer an UR God

The thing is all 3 positions have scripture to back them up

The thing is I have to try find the true character of God, if he is an ET God then I'm doomed, however I won't go on ex-c forums and make a mockery as this is not my style, I will try put this behind me and try to live the rest of my life as best I know how, and try to enjoy it

I just hope that UR is true and that God will reveal it to me, so that I can know without a shadow of a doubt, one thing I do notice is that URers are far more loving and less vindictive than ETers (I could never be an ETer, I would have to become agnostic or deist)

I want those that wronged me to be in heaven one day, I don't want them to go to an eternal hell

I hope you can understand my dilemma

I think your confusion is shared by many people. However, I think what may help is to consider that UR, ET, religion in general, all religion, is first based on the faith, the hope, that it's all true.

No one knows. If it were a fact without question it would be the fact of...Rather than the faith of.

I see the quandary regarding feeling God speak to you personally, inspire you to realize the existence of that creative power, is exacerbated if we expect it to come by the book. In other words, if I hold to the absolute fundamental of the whole of the Christian Bible and wait for the God described within that tome to reveal himself, while realizing there is no gender pronoun applicable to a spirit, (he, she) , I'm boxing myself in expecting one idea to show itself to me personally. Because I've read it appeared in that way, through the scriptures, generations ago.

Instead, what I find helps me to have a relationship with the all powerful spirit that is God is to let go of my expectations and my doubts. To be open and yet aware of the message I may receive.

See if this sounds familiar to you. Coincidence.
Have you noticed since you began your spiritual quest that things happen that seem to be inter-related in some way. As if there's this common thread that joins everything that occurs or some things that occur, together?
Something happens right now and there's this hint within it that reminds you of something like it that happened earlier.
For instance, and this sounds trivial however it helped me to see how that slogan that is so often thrown about when people speak of spiritual relationship, actually means something; "There is only one of us" & "Everything is connected".
Sounds like bumper stickers text doesn't it? And yet, just the other day in the morning I saw this guy on TV who was talking about in the coming election his vote was going for the Democrats, so he could have a better future.
When asked to expound on that he related how he had just graduated college and was getting his wardrobe together for his first big job garnered due to the school transcripts he had earned just prior. He told how he found brand new dress shoes at the local Goodwill but they were a half size too small. He bought them anyway, figuring with a shoe stretcher over the weekend he could work them into his size in time for his first day of work. Meanwhile, his purchase was due to his saving his money to repay the student loan he was paying on for the education that allowed him to get that first big paying job.

I remember thinking that was pretty nifty. Shoes that had never been worn, still had the tags on them and he was blessed to afford them at Goodwill and patient enough to stretch them out to his liking.
That night I went to the local department store looking for a new pair of house slippers. There was one ballet style left that sold as two pair for the price of one. I wear a size 7/8, while the cardboard cutout tag they were attached to denoted they were a 9/10. I figured since they were ballet style they'd probably run small. And for the price it couldn't be beat even though they were a size or two larger than I needed.
I got them home removed them from the cardboard display hanger, looked at the tag inside the inner sole and they were...a size 7/8.

In that instant I remembered that man on TV and his shoes. A story that may seem trivial and yet for me at least helped reiterate the message we are all related. We are all interconnected. That we all have a relationship with the source responsible for our being here. We can no more remove ourselves from that relationship and the innate conversation that is always available than we can remove ourselves from the DNA of our parents who made us.

My point being, be open. Don't live with expectations your dialog with God will follow what others have related of their own in scripture. Scripture, we're told, was derived from communication with the Holy Spirit. What that is, that power, is available at all times to everyone. Just let it flow. Be aware, watch for the signs that show you links , interrelatipnships to time and events and happenings that seemingly overlap or bear strikingly similar characteristics. See what that common thread is and perhaps you'll glean the message you're intended to read there.

One of the best salves I've found that helped lift the confusion fundamentalist dogma implied in my family life, as we were all raised southern Baptist, is the CD by Neale Donald Walsch. The author of the "Conversations with God" series. It's called, "The Journey". It's one of the most wonderful conversations I've heard because for me it resonates with what I've learned over the years as I've found my walk with God to be so much more than that what dogma would have mapped out for me had I been a traditionalist and followed in my families footsteps in matters of faith.
You are a fact. You are here for a reason. You are sacred. This earth is your church, the house of the Holy, as is your body. And the creator of it all is your universal eternal parent that is always in communication with you, even when you look in the mirror into your own eyes and see it's power there. Open, trust, and listen. You've never been alone or apart from the truth of the matter.

God Bless You.

So gentle ,yet refreshing to my soul.

"All loving God or loving to some and hateful towards most UR vs ET" a question to wonder of the questioner....READ it 1Jn 4:8  he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.

I still don't understand what the ETs have such deep hate toward URs....
Sure many of denomination 1 don't like the teachings of denomonimation 2...99999; but the other views are usually called wrong, incomplete or some other mild term.
But UR usally equals satanism.

Arminianism: Calvinism is wrong because God wants everyone to be saved.
Calvinism: Arminianism is wrong because God elected people to be saved.

Arminianism: UR is satanic because God wants everyone to be saved and succeeds :-)
Calvinism: UR is satanic because God elected* to many people.

*= Elect only determines when you are saved. Not if you are saved. But obviously that's another disagreement between UR en Calvinism.

"And has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also HIS OFFSPRING" (Acts 17:26-28)

one blood all nations of men.......For we are also HIS OFFSPRING"

Hey Shadow, I've been there. What I came to after a while was to observe myself and what I am afraid of and I understood that I have a tendency to fear unlikely or improbable things. This also has to do with having a quirky personality, I mean when I was younger I sometimes read books or saw movies specifically because they made me afraid, as if I was wanting to do a thrill ride, and that's one of the reasons which made me into a person that has anxiety easily. The point is, I needed to learn to relax and that I couldn't be the hero who would convert the world to a better religion, haha. What God called me to do was to be a confessing christian, to be ethically responsible and to partake in church life. The UR things describe salvation theology, and I believe they are accurate, but I don't think they necessarily take away all anxiety and solve all problems. That's also why some ET christians live comfortably even though one would think their extremistic theology should make them miserable. But not so, people believe all kinds of extreme things, what matters is that they make wise choices in life, have a family, have things to attach their heart to like a good hobby or a fulfilling job, have friends and no problems with people, etc. I mean, we believe in UR, yes, I think in truth everyone believes in UR in their hearts because it's just the most humane way of practicing a sound religion. But UR is not a magic key that makes absolutely everything wonderful, for that I think you need to search Jesus himself and make sure that you live in love, that you have people to love and people who love you so loneliness won't eat you up. As for me, I have found that every moment of love that I can find in life is precious and takes my mind away from the worries of life, and from the religious worries too. That's also how traditionally christianity has ever flourished... I mean that while ET isn't true, the church still existed despite the false theology and people lived and had their comforts and joys and many were happy. That is because Christ somehow influences this world and people look and learn and know what they must do to have a life and often people understand that theology is just a science and that people make up stuff and you need to care for yourself and your friends and family, etc. That's why I hang out with other christians regardless of where they stand on the ET/UR line and just try to be kind and live with people in a loving way and that's given me my peace really. Yes, ET is wrong but this sense of assurance in being at the right place in life comes from being able to live in love and kindness, and that's the law of love that the bible speaks about and it's what Jesus is saving us INTO. And for that to happen ET doesn't matter as much as some UR christians think because it's just a theology and I guess God Himself doesn't take it so serious, because what matters is that we know Jesus and live with Him in community, and that's it. The real struggle isn't for me to find out the best theology there is, but to accept everyone around me and to be kind to everyone and not to hold grudges and all that. And that's possible with pretty much everyone in my life, and that's also where the Sermon of the Mount comes in which shows you a way to overcome all kinds of human struggles with the counsel of God and of Christ who followed the same principles.

Shadow, I see from reading this thread that you have been here longer than me, though you are listed as a guest.  Therefore, I will regard you as senior.  :gimmefive:

Please know, first of all, that our doubts and confusion are not an answer, not primary, and that being lost is simply not having found our destination yet.  I've been there myself.  :doh:

Second, what you seek can not be accessed externally like this:   :punish:  That doesn't look like fun, anyway.

You need a super-natural solution from a super-natural source.  It works from the inside out, not from the outside in.  Pray.  Meditate.  Read your Bible.  Pay attention to your dreams - in my life, I have met God several times in dreams, and sometimes have dreams which seem highly significant if interpreted in Christian terms.  God can (and does!) bring people and circumstances into our lives which are good for us.  Do you not think your finding Tentmaker to be such a thing?  Be patient, for God converts some people overnight, but others take a lifetime.  It's God's doing, and we know He does it for our good and His glory. :dsunny: