absolute proof?

[ps]

The Bible has nothing in it about the damned screaming in hell.

But, the bible does record one (a rich man) as being in torment and agony in Hades, and of one portion of that location (some side of a great chasm) being a place of torment. and that being a likely destination of others (at least the five brothers) as well.

Luke 16:23-28 "In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment ... send Lazarus ... cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.  But Abraham said ... he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. ... send him [Lazarus] that he may warn them, that they will not also come to this place of torment."

[darryl]

The Bible has nothing in it about the damned screaming in hell.

But, the bible does record one (a rich man) as being in torment and agony in Hades, and of one portion of that location (some side of a great chasm) being a place of torment. and that being a likely destination of others (at least the five brothers) as well.

Luke 16:23-28 "In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment ... send Lazarus ... cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.  But Abraham said ... he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. ... send him [Lazarus] that he may warn them, that they will not also come to this place of torment."

u are forgetting about the 'weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth'...no, seriously.. we are supposed to believe God 'loses' billions and billions of people...casts them away from him forever...casts them into unspeakable agony in eternal hell forever, without end...no pity, no compassion, no 2nd chances...no nothing...

so, your  god knows he going to torture human beings like this yet he irresponsibly keeps creating them..keeps the entire process going...women continue to  have babies who are going to grow up and ultimately end up in a fiery lake, tortured forever...what an unspeakably sick twisted doctrine !..such a god who did this would be nothing less than an unspeakably evil monster...the most wicked being imaginable. I could not love a god like this...fear him, be terrified of him..yes....but love him ?..never.

[darryl]

what about this http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rejectuniversalism.htm

"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41)." "the fiery furnace" - this of course is at Jesus' return, when the wheat (sheep) is gathered into His barn and the tares are gathered to armageddon, the goats.. Or is there sentence and torture before judgment/trial?

"Tormented Day and Night For Ever and Ever" - this, as other's posted is translated from "aion" "aionian"... eon..
...besides, this is said about the devil and his angels..

"better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell (Matt. 18:9)." - actually what was written was fire of gehenna, and "gehenna" was the city dump where even the bodies of criminals were burned. "better your hand be cast there than you harm one of these little ones" (context) "and your whole body be cast there"

"None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled (John 17:12)." - for example, one business man may say to another, I will destroy you.. Another example, many will be destroyed at Jesus' return - in the "Day of the LORD" - Apocalypse is the lesson, not 'hell'. YHWH is both perfect and all mighty.. and also is 100% "good".

"[color=greenwill be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes[/color] - everlasting - from "aionian"

"Raging fire will consume the enemies of God (Heb. 10:27)" - again apocalypse, the unveiling, that life apart from YHWH - who iS life (and Perfection) can only ever end in a crashing and burning.. He is much (much) wiser and capable than we give Him credit for!! He is writing the truth - good from evil / life from nonlife,death upon every heart, mind and psyche.

"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (Rev. 22:14,15)." - amen, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness.. on 'day' of judgment.. and it is ALWAYS true that to be outside His Perfect Will.. is to be outside..

"small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it (Matt. 7:13,14)." - true I'm not sure any of us "find it" as the Word says He chose us, not vice versa..

"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7:21)." - absolutely.. those of the 2nd resurrection, having died in their sins, will rise still in their sins.. I believe it is only at the end of judgment day, a day of the review of all things, every story, and all human history, when it will be said "those not believing will go to the 2nd death" (or lake of fire-aionian, maybe a few really hard cases? imo)

But really.. who after having experienced being woke up from their grave, and witnessing the judging of all things, who's not going to "believe"? (After aLL that?!) :smile:

"those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned (John 5:28,29)." - who is this writing this? they don't look into the original words used, at all..?

http://studybible.info/IGNT/John%205:28,29 - the verse with the language references
"destruction" = G2920
κρίσις
krisis
decision
by extension a tribunal; by implication justice

So say I rise from my grave still in my sins and imperfect and I never heard anything whatsoever about Jesus and His paying the price for my sins.. nor ever heard of the heavenly Father God who loves me. I will simply be woken up and thrown into burning forever fire, where my skin will melt forever and ever. And that would be Yahweh's perfect justice.. Perhaps I lived all my life under a horrible despot and died under torture or in a rape room. Now even worse things await me. The face burning in the image of this site, says it all. How God is love and is almighty and is perfect. I am never surprised at scoffers. And those who cannot believe. Wo to those who add to and take away from God's Word. His word, not man's translations of it.. "they love the lie.. and love to have it so.."?

It's only after Dante and such that we are obsessed with an afterlife. The Hebrew barely makes mention of such a thing.. Only resurrection.

"This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe (1 Tim. 4:9,10). - It does not say "exclusively those who believe" but "especially those who believe" which of course is so very true! Can't save them until they believe. "Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess" -  a verse repeated at least 3 times. "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn-to-the Lord, and all families will worship before Him" Ps 22:27. "In your seed (Jesus) all nations will be blessed" .."all families will be blessed".. And so many more.. how are they missed? :faint:

:Peace2: God bless... hope some of these very good posts and scriptures quoted in this thread have helped! :girlheart:

does the bible say anything about people hearing the damned screaming from hell

wasnt there a recording made of that by some Russians in Siberia or someplace ?  :eek:...turned out to be a hoax  :banana: :thumbsup:

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: yep, nothing like it is in the bible.. when nations and even Israel was sacrificing children and babes in fire - beating drums so the screaming would be drowned out - (that's what the name means, "Tophet"? - "drumming") The LORD God said "such a thing never rose up in my heart! nor originated with me!!" And I (for one) 100% believe Him.
    :Peace2: :cloud9:

I believe Him too !.  :iagree:

[ask21771]

this all sounds like opinion show me some proof

[marie glen]

The Bible has nothing in it about the damned screaming in hell.

But, the bible does record one (a rich man) as being in torment and agony in Hades, and of one portion of that location (some side of a great chasm) being a place of torment. and that being a likely destination of others (at least the five brothers) as well.

Luke 16:23-28 "In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment ... send Lazarus ... cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.  But Abraham said ... he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. ... send him [Lazarus] that he may warn them, that they will not also come to this place of torment."

I tend to think Jesus was teasing the pharisees who had quite a bit of myth belief... the Talmud is full of a lot of unbiblical ideas, the traditions of men...

Otherwise, I would think it occurs on judgment 'day' when those of the 1st resurrection are in radiant light (and have been for a thousand years) and those of the 2nd resurrection have been risen still in their sins, having "died in their sins" - what a scary thought! to be still in one's personal darkness and sins, and faced with the glorious and bright light of His Perfection and HOLINESS! :faint:

.."there will be outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth"

..but the "send him [Lazarus] that he may warn them, that they will not also come to this place of torment" implies 'immortal soul'/inherent immortality, which imo is anti-biblical.. hence I believe He was teasing.. just my :2c: ("to dust shalt thou return" .."those in the graves will hear His voice.."
        :Peace2:

[marie glen]

The Bible has nothing in it about the damned screaming in hell.

Amen! ..but man seems to take to the idea.. as it's in the spurious 'apoclypse of peter' and in Dante's 'epic' poem.. and in ppl's imaginations..

this all sounds like opinion show me some proof

thanks for the opportunities of some very interesting and enlightening discussions, but "proof"? His Word is Truth :gsmile: It behooves us all to know how to read it, rather than, as with so many(?) merely be told what it says..

I know the Holy Spirit teaches us and guides, but I LOVE these Bible study aids, now, at all of our fingertips (well, many of us, anyway)

http://studybible.info/IGNT/Matthew%201:1 - this site includes also the Hebrew interlinear (as well as the Greek).. the Greek and Hebrew word numbers are included with each verse/word, with link to the Greek or Hebrew :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

https://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/ - topic and word search is SO much easier online than with the big Strong's Concordances.. used to use one for KJ and another for NIV.. one of the last studies I did using this site was on the word "death" - all the verses in old and new testaments.. quite enlightening :smile:

and of course - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/ - verse lookup.. individual or many at once.. if verses are listed as 1-2, rather than 1,2 - it is shown unbroken..

I know there are other excellent sites and resources others use.. It's the Holy Spirit (via His Word) which teaches, guides and "convinces"-usually translated "convicts" - as in "the Holy Spirit will convince the world of sin" - It's the Holy Spirit which convinces (via God's Word, which is Truth. The proof is in His Word.. and there's plenty of it! And I for one, am rather partial to logic. Is He not 100% all powerful / able, and 100% all Good? will we happily and full of joy toast marshmallows over the pit of the majority of humanity writhing in unimaginable hot, burning torment.. with no end to the torment in sight, ever..? // what!? :doh: :laughing7: puhlease.. :laughing7: )

:girlheart:

[darryl]

this all sounds like opinion show me some proof

hmmm...the question is, what is your default position ?...my 'default position' is God does not punish human beings in conscious torment forever without end...so, I read and interpret eschatological Bible verses thru that lens..if your default position is that god does torment human beings forever then you'll read eschatological verses thru that lenses...quite simple really.

[darryl]

this all sounds like opinion show me some proof

as a human I am made in the image of God...'eternal conscious torment' offends my God given humanity and sense of 'right and wrong' and this 'offense' must affect my 'opinion'.

[darryl]

The Bible has nothing in it about the damned screaming in hell.

Amen! ..but man seems to take to the idea.. as it's in the spurious 'apoclypse of peter' and in Dante's 'epic' poem.. and in ppl's imaginations..

this all sounds like opinion show me some proof

thanks for the opportunities of some very interesting and enlightening discussions, but "proof"? His Word is Truth :gsmile: It behooves us all to know how to read it, rather than, as with so many(?) merely be told what it says..

I know the Holy Spirit teaches us and guides, but I LOVE these Bible study aids, now, at all of our fingertips (well, many of us, anyway)

http://studybible.info/IGNT/Matthew%201:1 - this site includes also the Hebrew interlinear (as well as the Greek).. the Greek and Hebrew word numbers are included with each verse/word, with link to the Greek or Hebrew :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

https://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/ - topic and word search is SO much easier online than with the big Strong's Concordances.. used to use one for KJ and another for NIV.. one of the last studies I did using this site was on the word "death" - all the verses in old and new testaments.. quite enlightening :smile:

and of course - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/ - verse lookup.. individual or many at once.. if verses are listed as 1-2, rather than 1,2 - it is shown unbroken..

I know there are other excellent sites and resources others use.. It's the Holy Spirit (via His Word) which teaches, guides and "convinces"-usually translated "convicts" - as in "the Holy Spirit will convince the world of sin" - It's the Holy Spirit which convinces (via God's Word, which is Truth. The proof is in His Word.. and there's plenty of it! And I for one, am rather partial to logic. Is He not 100% all powerful / able, and 100% all Good? will we happily and full of joy toast marshmallows over the pit of the majority of humanity writhing in unimaginable hot, burning torment.. with no end to the torment in sight, ever..? // what!? :doh: :laughing7: puhlease.. :laughing7: )

:girlheart:

I could not burn a human being alive for 2 seconds let alone all eternity...if I saw a person on fire my immediate impulse would be to try and put out the flames immediately. Even Hitler probably wouldn't burn somebody alive forever.

[marie glen]

this all sounds like opinion show me some proof

as a human I am made in the image of God...'eternal conscious torment' offends my God given humanity and sense of 'right and wrong' and this 'offense' must affect my 'opinion'.

I could not burn a human being alive for 2 seconds let alone all eternity...if I saw a person on fire my immediate impulse would be to try and put out the flames immediately. Even Hitler probably wouldn't burn somebody alive forever.

Amen! and amen to your other post too, Darryl, about default opinion coloring the verses when read..

And I've been thinking.. talk about proof.. what is the 'hell'  and ET's proof of - #1 that we possess inherent immortality (even before faith in Jesus), and #2 proof that a literal "hell" of eternal conscious torment exists and proof our heavenly Father will dispose of people therein...?

The thing is, we Ur'ers are pretty acquainted with the verses, including the original words used which were in large part mistranslated.

Case in point, it's rather easy for one to look up "gehennna"  and find it described as a place of torment and suffering, but! This is from legend! Even ancient Israelites had their legends and myths.. And a "legendary" gehenna is one of those.

How to "prove" the gehenna Jesus was referring to was the literal Jerusalem dump where even criminal's bodies were burned, and not the legend? :dontknow:

Except, to me, this is where logic comes in handy. Did Jesus say one can toss their hand into 'hell' and the rest of their self would be safe? Well, that's a new scenario, I'd say. And put together with Jesus' "if I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross, I believe we are safe to assume) "I will draw all to me".

Just what, do believer's in God's unending wrath/revenge think this verse means? :dontknow:

Now I can understand how it can be missed, initially, in the verses about fiery retribution - but Israel always knew fiery retribution was upon earth - apocalypse of their day - and how it can be missed in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 - "22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: [1]Christ, the firstfruits; then, [2]when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then [3]the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [death destroyed] 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

And I suppose 1 Timothy 4:10 - "God is the savior of all, especially of those who believe" could be mentally changed to "exclusively those who  come to faith during this life only" - but to me, that is adding to God's Word, and I prefer the "especially those who believe" as of course they are at the time of "believing" being saved..

Where is the proof that faith and bending the knee can only occur during this lifetime? Where does the Word come right out and say that?

Yes, Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would die in their sins. Absolutely. What does that mean, well, it certainly (surely?) means they will rise "still in their sins" at the 2nd resurrection, surely a far less joyful and happy a rising than the first resurrection at Jesus' return?!

If all those millions of folks are going to burn forever unless they "believe" during this lifetime, I surely think God's Word would come right out and very plainly say so.

I know when my children were young, I was extremely clear to say "do not play in the road" and yes I added "or you could be squashed like a bug" - point being, whether they were with me, or elsewhere I wanted to be sure they had that clear message of "do not play in the road". How much more responsible of a Father and creator is our perfect, almighty Father in heaven?

Yep, I for one, am a firm believer in "logic". But His Word trumps ALL, and is the mirror against which all logic must hold water. So if one were able to provide proof of a hell by God's Word, I would change my mind, and that would be the gospel I would seek to communicate.

But alas, I am a firm believer that the hell myth blasphemes God's holy and good character every day. And actively causes thousands (upon thousands?) of people to be unable to "believe".. I have heard folks come right out and say, a 'god' like that, is not a 'god' they would want to know.

"God is love" and "almighty" but powerless to save 3/4's of humanity from a never ending horrific worst nightmare ever? Gee.. and I thought all this while that Yahweh was more powerful than Satan.. and thought the victorious gospel to be more victorious than to save less folks to His kingdom than Satan (supposedly) will win to his.. (needed, scratching head smiley :laughing7: )

The hell myth is on a par with the adult fairy tale of 'evolution' (in lack of proof or support, and in ridiculousness)... But untold numbers actually believe these sorts of things! :faint: Something I never lose my wonder over..

I'm thankful for this thread, as once in a while (er often?) I enjoy a good rant.. :gsmile: :cloud9: {even when it's only preaching to the choir! :laughing7:

[eaglesway]

I believ in inherent immortality, because God made man in His image....but

I don't believe the teaching of inherent morality bears any weight in the discussion concerning ET or UR, because whether immortality is inherent(a part of the creation) or not

"As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive."

In my view, he immortality of the lost is a a part of the promise of God to all creation- that He will restore all.

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. Ecclesiaste 3

The spirit God breathed into man is His spirit. It may return to Him at death but He does not give it insincerely.

"For the gifts and callings of God are without repentence"...

God had already pre-ordained before creation that all men would return to Him, that all death would be anulled, that every soul will become a part of the all in all.

I say this not to argue the point of inherent immortality either way. To me it is a semantical argument that matters very little in the grand scope of God's overall plan.

I only mention it because the common issues, like this one, or Calvinism/Armenianism, or inclusivism verses eclusivism all have NO BEARING on the ET, EDverses UR debate...

Because the word of God repeatedly states that death will be swallowed up by immortality(whether inherent or not), that all will be reconciled(whether inherently immortal or not), that death will be done away(when there is no more death all will be immortal), that God will be all in all(even those who were at one time adversaries), and finally, that "all things will be gathered into one in Christ" because "from Him and through Him and to Him are all things."

If all those things as stated are untrue, the scriptures are a joke book of myths and fables and who cares whether one sleeps in death or whether they cease to exist until the resurrection.

To me at least.... there are many more verses about the certainty of UR than there are describing the condition of the soul in death.  :2c:

[GodIsLove]

For the original poster----

Here is my advice to you.

People who believe in ET see ET in the scriptures.
People who believe in annihilation see annihilation in the scriptures.
People who believe in UR see UR in the scriptures.

How can this be so? One must be correct (or the 4th option is the bible is just an old book and it means nothing but we aren't going there).

In my opinion ET (hell) and annihilation both do have some verses that could be construed to support their beliefs. BUT they must ignore or explain away the many UR verses in the process. These verses are sprinkled throughout here at Tentmaker, especially if you do a search of Eaglesway's posts.

UR has scriptural support and when you see it, truly see it, you realize you can't explain away UR, it is written plainly in scriptures. Then when you see that God's ultimate plan is to reconcile all that he has created, you begin to understand the verses you thought supported hell or annihilation talk of other things (earthly judgments, God's refining fire to purge sin and impurities, perishing temporarily only to be restored, judgments to teach righteousness, firey trials, death as a metaphor for living in sin and darkness, etc).

But there is another way to learn the truth.

Jesus didn't say "my apostles will write the bible and it will guide you"

He said: "I will send a helper to guide you" which is the Holy Spirit.

John 16 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you."

So pray about it. Ask God to show you the answer.

[darryl]

this all sounds like opinion show me some proof

as a human I am made in the image of God...'eternal conscious torment' offends my God given humanity and sense of 'right and wrong' and this 'offense' must affect my 'opinion'.

I could not burn a human being alive for 2 seconds let alone all eternity...if I saw a person on fire my immediate impulse would be to try and put out the flames immediately. Even Hitler probably wouldn't burn somebody alive forever.

Amen! and amen to your other post too, Darryl, about default opinion coloring the verses when read..

And I've been thinking.. talk about proof.. what is the 'hell'  and ET's proof of - #1 that we possess inherent immortality (even before faith in Jesus), and #2 proof that a literal "hell" of eternal conscious torment exists and proof our heavenly Father will dispose of people therein...?

The thing is, we Ur'ers are pretty acquainted with the verses, including the original words used which were in large part mistranslated.

Case in point, it's rather easy for one to look up "gehennna"  and find it described as a place of torment and suffering, but! This is from legend! Even ancient Israelites had their legends and myths.. And a "legendary" gehenna is one of those.

How to "prove" the gehenna Jesus was referring to was the literal Jerusalem dump where even criminal's bodies were burned, and not the legend? :dontknow:

Except, to me, this is where logic comes in handy. Did Jesus say one can toss their hand into 'hell' and the rest of their self would be safe? Well, that's a new scenario, I'd say. And put together with Jesus' "if I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross, I believe we are safe to assume) "I will draw all to me".

Just what, do believer's in God's unending wrath/revenge think this verse means? :dontknow:

Now I can understand how it can be missed, initially, in the verses about fiery retribution - but Israel always knew fiery retribution was upon earth - apocalypse of their day - and how it can be missed in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 - "22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: [1]Christ, the firstfruits; then, [2]when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then [3]the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [death destroyed] 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

And I suppose 1 Timothy 4:10 - "God is the savior of all, especially of those who believe" could be mentally changed to "exclusively those who  come to faith during this life only" - but to me, that is adding to God's Word, and I prefer the "especially those who believe" as of course they are at the time of "believing" being saved..

Where is the proof that faith and bending the knee can only occur during this lifetime? Where does the Word come right out and say that?

Yes, Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would die in their sins. Absolutely. What does that mean, well, it certainly (surely?) means they will rise "still in their sins" at the 2nd resurrection, surely a far less joyful and happy a rising than the first resurrection at Jesus' return?!

If all those millions of folks are going to burn forever unless they "believe" during this lifetime, I surely think God's Word would come right out and very plainly say so.

I know when my children were young, I was extremely clear to say "do not play in the road" and yes I added "or you could be squashed like a bug" - point being, whether they were with me, or elsewhere I wanted to be sure they had that clear message of "do not play in the road". How much more responsible of a Father and creator is our perfect, almighty Father in heaven?

Yep, I for one, am a firm believer in "logic". But His Word trumps ALL, and is the mirror against which all logic must hold water. So if one were able to provide proof of a hell by God's Word, I would change my mind, and that would be the gospel I would seek to communicate.

But alas, I am a firm believer that the hell myth blasphemes God's holy and good character every day. And actively causes thousands (upon thousands?) of people to be unable to "believe".. I have heard folks come right out and say, a 'god' like that, is not a 'god' they would want to know.

"God is love" and "almighty" but powerless to save 3/4's of humanity from a never ending horrific worst nightmare ever? Gee.. and I thought all this while that Yahweh was more powerful than Satan.. and thought the victorious gospel to be more victorious than to save less folks to His kingdom than Satan (supposedly) will win to his.. (needed, scratching head smiley :laughing7: )

The hell myth is on a par with the adult fairy tale of 'evolution' (in lack of proof or support, and in ridiculousness)... But untold numbers actually believe these sorts of things! :faint: Something I never lose my wonder over..

I'm thankful for this thread, as once in a while (er often?) I enjoy a good rant.. :gsmile: :cloud9: {even when it's only preaching to the choir! :laughing7:

surely no thinking person could take seriously the belief that any kind of 'good' god torments people forever..its preposterous and absurd in the extreme..yes, 'eternal hell' is a stumbling block to many who might otherwise believe..as you no doubt do, I know people personally who reject the Gospel because of this evil teaching.

[ask21771]

did zoroastrianism infulence christianity, is there proof it did

[eaglesway]

Proof is a funny thing. There has been truth in the world for a long time, but in whatever aspects Zoroastrianism reflects Christianity, How do we know that Zoroaster was not influenced by the prophets of Israel? Everyone claims to have proof, but the prohpets of Israel and the law of Moses were around thousands of years earlier.

Zoroaster lived around 600 BC, but the religion that bears his name is not known before 500 AD.

At a certain point, one receives a revelation of Jesus as Lord, and Messiah(the Anointed One), or they don't.

According to the scriptures of Moses and the prophets, YHWH, who Jesus calls the One True God was the Creator of all things. According to the scriptures of the apostles, YHWH did this through Jesus.

We know there were three wise men from the East, perhaps in the regions where Zoroaster lived). In any case, there were people in the East seeking the Messiah, the promised King- and they came to Jesus with gifts.

As we ask God for wisdom and truth, He will reveal that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, the Logos, the Word made flesh, the fountainhead of truth and the "radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of His nature."

He supersedes all who came before, all who came after(Alpha and Omega). Christianity as a religion may be influenced by all kinds of things around the world, but Christianity as the walk of disciples of Jesus Christ is named in Him because He is its founder, and He began that foundation before His incarnation.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. Heb 1:1-3

Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:8-11

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. Col 1:15-18

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it..... There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John's Gospel Chapter 1

All of the above verses testify to the true identity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten son, the only incarnation of God, born of a virgin, sacrificed for the reconciliation of mankind to God and raised from the dead to reign as the Benevolent Kingand Lord of the whole universe.

I pray that he will open your heart to His wisdom and love as the ascendant truth over all creation, and that His love will wash over you and renew your life like a river of living water.

[marie glen]

Amen! He is the River of Life! :dsunny: :cloud9:

...And about Universal Reconciliation/Redemption (Repentance), I thought this mini study turned out interesting,

Matthew 19:26
New International Version
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

"all things" - G3956

- http://studybible.info/strongs/G3956

LSJ Gloss:
πᾶς
all, the whole
Dodson:
πᾶς
all, the whole, every kind of.
Strong's:
πᾶς
all, any, every, the whole
Derivation: including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word;
KJV Usage: all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Thayer:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
All
Every, Everyone (man), Everything
Whole (made), Wholly, Wholesome

πᾱς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole

        :Peace2: :dsunny: