Tentmaker Forum

I am not sure this is the proper place for this question, so if it's not feel free to move it.  I grew up believing freemasonry was evil.  When I was Catholic becoming a mason was excommunicable.  I was wondering, what are some personal thoughts here on the freemasons?  I always wanted to join because so many of our founders were masons and I am a lover of history, however I don't want to join a group that at it's core stands against Jesus Christ.

 Hi Johnny

  You ALREADY BELONG TO A UNIVERSAL ORGANIZATION

AND THE MASTER BUILDER[mason/ of the temple]is Jesus

    CHRIST

   
     Matthew 16;13-20

    'who do people say the son of man is?  They replied,

  'some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah and still others

  say,Jeremiah of one of the prophets"

   'BUT WHAT ABOUT YOU? He asked 'WHO DO YOU SAY I AM?

   Simon Peter answered, 'YOU ARE THE CHRIST,THE SON

  OF THE LIVING GOD"

     Jesus replied, 'Blessed are thou,Simon son of Jonah,

FOR THIS WHAT NOT REVEALED TO YOU BY MAN,

BUT BY MY FATHER IN HEAVEN...and I tell you...that you are

Peter, and ON THIS ROCK[the revealelation of Father]

I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HADES

WILL NOT OVERCOME IT


  I WILL GIVE YOU THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN

AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH WILL BE LOOSED IN

HEAVEN

   John 2;19  Jesus answered them,'DESTORY THIS TEMPLE AND

  I WILL RAISE IT AGAIN IN THREE DAYS"

      The Great Temple Raiser is working NOW!!!!

   If it was me, I wouldn't want to miss out on it, especially for some man made organization!!! Just my outlook. My ex- was and I think still is one.However, he also joined the catholic church,too.Will have to ask him the next time I see him if he is still a freemason

   God Bless you, Sheila

  p.s.  I got the idea it was some kind of fraternity,secret etc handshake,meetings. that it net-worked social aggradizement

some kind of 'brotherhood' but a freind of mine whose husband was one and died, said that 'they' tried to move in on her
sexually...'so much for looking after widows and orphans in their tribulation,huh?[I;m not saying it's all that way

that's the scope of my expierence with them, 33rd,Scottish rite
Shriner's etc.

I do not think that you really want to become a mason...... Not just because the only two that I know very well are both the most disgusting liars and thieves that I have ever met (one is even a church elder) but because the rest of the masons will defend them against all comers who are not masons......... reminds me of hells angels or other evil organizations that I have had the unfortunate experience to have come across in my life

On a theoretical point they accept any way to God and heaven as being ok just as long as you have a way   :sigh:........ one can believe in Jesus and the other be a Jew while a third, forth, or fifth may be Moslems, Buddhist or Hindu yet they will all end up as the perfect man being united equally in both earthly and heavenly knowledge.  :thumbdown:

However until that day they all stick together and decide how to keep as much wealth as possible amongst their own including stealing from you.

They have good covers with charity and so forth but up close and personal they among the worst I have ever come across.

Doug

Yeah, don't want to be harsh or try to "put you in a box" johnny, but I also have negative information and feelings about the masons.  IMO, a "anything goes as long as it's mason-approved" mentality - including Jesus is just "one of the good guys".

The Free Masons of the 1700s are not the Free Masons of the 1800s and beyond.  Originally, they were the radical evangelical wing of the Episcopalians and it was sorta a social club that transcended sorta the English caste system and Colonials would join because it would give them access to being able to discuss things with British nobility.  Anyway, it was in the early 1800s that folks started distancing the Free Masonry from Christianity, and doing a bunch of occultic writings around the second decade of the 1800s.  But that was the turning point.  Some folks are on record as having said in the early 1800s that if Free Masonry had been this while Washington and some of the other founding fathers had been alive, they'd of never been Masons. 

Sorta how the Unitarian and Universalist denominations went south in the 1800s, Free Masonry was another originally Christian outreach that went into the pit with all of the occultism.  At one point, it became associated with organized crime, and people going to trial for organized crime as Masons were not getting convicted and there was public outrage over this -- sooo much so to the point that I believe that a political party was organized that was the Anti Masonic Party or something like that.  I'm going to step out on a limb here 'cause unsure of the particular fact, but I'm thinking John Quincy Adams is who I'm thinking of that was elected as someone that had run on that party platform.  More info on all of this and any corrections on what I just said is at http://www.wallbuilders.com (http://www.wallbuilders.com) with their book "Free Masonry and the Founding Fathers."

You don't have to be a political conservative to deeply enjoy their book and it maybe worth peaking around, particularly with any search engines the site may have, 'cause they may have an article written on it.  I've personally not read the book, but I've heard some of their archived radio programs on it at their website.  Some of their radio programs are exclusively right wing stuff, but some of 'em wind up being these kinds of topics.  I haven't been to the website since about '08.  One of their radio programs in July of '07 or July of '08 was specifically surrounding my question about our first war on Islamic terrorism that we had from 1784 to 1816 'cause David Barton had briefly mentioned it, and I slammed 'em quick with an email and just happened to luck out with listening the very day the broadcast was about my question, so that was kinda cool.

They're not afraid of questions around the areas of their expertise, though they never answered some questions I had years ago regarding UR in that time period.  Should have figured they wouldn't wanna go there, or just honestly wouldn't have the resources on hand specifically relating to that, since you can own historical writings without owning some of the books I own, so...  But other than UR -- anything specifically US history related on other matters, and they'll even do the research for you, if they don't readily have it in one of their publications on something.  They sent me this whole custom essay one time per some of my questions years ago.  Unsure if they still do that, but it had footnotes and all and a suggested donation slip with the packet they sent me related to my questions.  Never did send back a donation, but will likely order about half of their newer books eventually 'cause they've got some of the more thorough resources on stuff they've looked into, like Masonry, African American History, etc.  Not a matter of the money for them, but the interest in prioritizing their reading right then.  Not going to do what I did years ago with getting a whole bunch of books that I wind up never reading and could have bought another year on my website with that money or whatever.

I've been gone for a week or so in Cuba(vacation time)...so I missed this question
My wife's grandfather was big into it and a few years ago my wife manifested some ugly things.We went through counseling and deliverance and found much tied to masonry.She had to renounce a lot of word pacts and secret covenants.
Some of the stuff was pretty sick in nature but it holds control on people and does pass down generationally.
There is no peace to be found in this system!
Your Father will provide you with all you need.
blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: onlytruth on January 20, 2010, 04:55:40 AM

My wife's grandfather was big into it and a few years ago my wife manifested some ugly things.We went through counseling and deliverance and found much tied to masonry.She had to renounce a lot of word pacts and secret covenants.
Some of the stuff was pretty sick in nature but it holds control on people and does pass down generationally.
There is no peace to be found in this system!
Your Father will provide you with all you need.
blessings :icon_king:

I know the Bible speaks of sins being visited onto the third fourth generation however that has to do with observing sins being committed and the resulting shame and embarrassment rather than any generational curses.

Exd 34:7    Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

For sure God does NOT judge any family member for the sins of others that they too did not commit...... that is not excusing leading others into sin or becoming a stumbling stone.

Eze 18:20       The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

I have a mason in my family history but it was a few generations back so what if anything gets passed down through him to me?

According to scripture absolutely nothing as this person and whatever was good or bad about him was removed enough that I only found out about him from my father (it was either his uncle or great uncle) shortly before his passing. On the other hand had I been exposed to something first hand such as witnessing certain rites and events that would be different and bring into play a whole different set of rules.

For example when a son sees his father live a life of sin it will "stay" with him always being in the back of his mind and very possibly influencing him in a negative way (such as shame and embarrassment) and it will take 3-4 generations before the sinful influence of that one family members sin to be forgotten by both family members and the public at large.

Unfortunately SATAN  playing the role of the accuser WILL visit the sins of the father upon the children forever and causing them to think that they have something in them that is condemning them or causing sin in their life when nothing could be further from the truth.

Deliverance ministries play off of these unfortunate types of Christians who do have problems but it is because of the lack of knowledge and not because of any demons within them....... The presence of demons in a person is because of their own sin and not the sin of anyone else and because of our past many of us do have to contend with demons but that is not the end of the world  :thumbsup:.......... Because it is through knowledge of the truth and the presence of Christ in us who has already taken all captivity captive that we may be delivered from all sin and demons!!!

Personally I do not think much different of "most" deliverance ministries than I do of what they claim to be able to deliver poor souls from (and that is stating my opinion of them very kindly). On the other hand there are without a doubt instances where a person has been "demonized" and had those demons cast out. Still without the individual continuing on in Christ and then through that individual learning to worship in truth and in knowledge become able to overcome those demons, they are sure to return......... Jesus teaches us that in the parable of the unclean spirit.

Mat 12:43   When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

:44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth [it] empty, swept, and garnished.

:45   Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

I have seen first hand where a woman that had been delivered by a well known teacher of deliverance at the times of Satan's choosing fall right back into becoming physically under the control of a very obvious unclean spirit. Unfortunately this repetition is going to continue to plague her until she herself comes to the knowledge of the truth. Was this woman ever delivered....... IMO yes she was but without her coming to posses the necessary knowledge herself, she will continue to have instances of her body coming under the control of demons.  :sigh:

As God said........ his people perish because of the lack of knowledge.


Blessings

Doug

Hi doug...an ungodly attitude can be brought down to others.An example that is obvious is sexual abuse,promiscuity. If a child grows up in this or even senses it ,the child will be affected.It is a spirit we can come into line with...when it is exposed it can manifest in different ways and when it does "deliverance" can occur.
Some people have discernment of spirits(issues people may have)and know how to speak into the situation.
I don't see anything wrong or non biblical with this.
blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: onlytruth on January 20, 2010, 04:55:40 AMMy wife's grandfather was big into it and a few years ago my wife manifested some ugly things.We went through counseling and deliverance and found much tied to masonry.She had to renounce a lot of word pacts and secret covenants.
Some of the stuff was pretty sick in nature but it holds control on people and does pass down generationally.

Yeah, I was involved in an exorcism back in 2005 that lasted 41 days and nights and crazy amounts of the demonic only left after freemasonry renunciation of stuff done by her parents, grandparents, and great grandparents.  I don't want to scare anyone seeking for the baptism with Holy Spirit, but it was right as they were getting baptized with Holy Spirit that all of that crud started manifesting and she ran off on all 4s into my hall closet, and her face got really long and narrow and I won't even get into all of it, but she sounded like and took on body language of quite a few popular female singers to where obviously certain choices in music that wasn't Word honoring had fortified that to where I was narrowly strong enough to get all of that crap out of her. I'd time travel and trade Jesus on who did the Gadarene demoniac's deliverance ANY TIME HE'D LIKE if He'd of personally come and dealt with that bit of nonsense I had to deal with in '05.  I wonder sometimes if I've caught up on my sleep YET.  And of course, i was working full time for walmart, so, I had spiritual warfare going on no matter what and I couldn't decide what was worse, that exorcism or the job I'd of gladly chosen suicide over if it weren't for having to come home to THAT and for just under 6wks it was a degree less warfare against me than being back at the house. Sooooooo much of that crap, again, was freemasonry related from prior generations and oaths she knew absolutely nothing about, but their words and their spirits didn't want to depart from the mouths of their children or their children's children forever.

 :cloud9: Yes, I have to concur on this take on it, having been brought up in what I only partially tongue-in-cheek call the "Lord's boot camp", ie. deliverance ministry. And no; NO MAN taught me, the Lord taught me beginning 8 days after my salvation experience and I knew NO ONE in Christian circles save my one back-slidden Baptist friend at the time, and SHE thought I was dead wrong when I was trying to tell her about deliverance for CHRISTIANS, insisting that Christians couldn't have anything but the Holy Spirit in them, because that was what she had been taught of men.

Her stand on that was dramatically altered a few days later, after having a fight with her then boyfriend at work one day, and she found she COULD NOT "settle down", but was still nearly enraged at him. She began to pray commanding what she thought was agitating AROUND her away from her, when the Lord spoke to her plainly, "It's not outside of you, it's INSIDE of you!"

So she started to command anything like that out of her and coughed with force, aware something like akin to an "air snake" left her throat. She began to cry and praise God, and just then a young minister friend who worked there also went by and asked her what was wrong. He got a strange look on his face and said, "Now I know what happened to ME two weeks ago!"

He began to tell her of getting a call and meeting up with 4 other ministers to go to a woman's house to do a "house blessing/cleaning" because the woman said she was seeing demons walking thru her house. When he began to command them out of HER house, they left HIS "house" instead, and he coughed so hard he had to stop and let one of the others take over. They both were choked up then and both left work to go home and lay on their faces before God to see what ELSE He would remove from them then.

I wish I still had the 2 legal pads full of scripture after scripture that He led me thru the whole Bible revealing deliverance, beginning with the separation of light and darkness in Genesis. The principle or precept is ALL THRU IT, is in the pattern of the Tabernacle as well, as it is the inner court priesthood realm that displays part of the pattern as does the outer court.

This is what He MEANT, when He said work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The Greek word there for salvation also means DELIVERANCE, and it is in the inner court realm where the sanctification process begins. Sin is not only a verb, as in something we do, but also is a NOUN, as in something we HAVE in our flesh. When Adam was taken from the dust of the earth, did you ever think about the fact that the serpent was ALREADY THERE, in the dust realm? Else why was Satan already a serpent? "Oops!"  :mshock:

When God said that "Lucifer" (Adam) was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him, He did not mean that like it was a surprise and He just found it. He brought Eve out of him to show him what his stony (calcium/bone is a mineral/stone) heart looked like.

Which is why He told the Israelites He took them out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts. Not because He didn't know, but because He wanted them to see if for themselves, as a man looking into a mirror and seeing his REFLECTION. He brought us out into the wilderness of sin for the same reason. Remember; it's not what goes IN a man's mouth that defiles him, IT'S WHAT COMES OUT OF IT, ie. it's ALREADY THERE.

Now has this doctrine abused? Of course it has. Name me one truth of God that hasn't been. But that doesn't make the truth any less the truth...Blessings...

Certainly Christians can have demons and that is exactly what the law of sin living in the flesh of Paul is made up of .......that fact is even made more clear when he refers to it as the "messenger of satan" that was the thorn in his flesh.

Thorns are the sins that are living nouns within the soul whom we have carried with us since our natural birth......... after all the soul (Eve) is nothing more than a celestial body (form made up of spirit matter) that has been taken from a physical body with all of it's senses of likes and dislikes. 

Numbers 33:55
But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Judges 2:3
Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

Had Israel killed those whom they were suppose to WHEN they were suppose to we would not have to deal with them but that was not God's plan for us.

Personally for many who are called to do the Lords work I would not put faith in any deliverance from them for the simple reason that God did not remove them from Paul. As I said in another thread when Satan showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world that had been given to Him by God he showed Jesus the spirit and soul of man............and if they belong to Satan you can be sure that there are demons there. However as long as we do not give life to them by yielding to THEIR desires they will remain in the "dry places" that is the dust of our flesh.  (that is why the jews had the the laws of a  seed not being allowed to fall unto the ground therefore giving it life are all about)......... also see Jesus parable of the unclean spirit in Matt.12 and Luke 11

It is nothing to brag about but if anyone has known or seen the face of evil I have......... and I know it still lives in my flesh and it will never be anything different than what it always has been. However through the knowledge of the truth and understanding of the spirit and soul as well as the knowledge of the enemy, by the Grace and Love of God this evil in me is not allowed to rule over what God has bought and paid for.

I certainly have a lot more trust in God keeping what He has paid for than I ever would in any person ever accomplishing what He has said He will not do!!!

Quote from: onlytruth on January 21, 2010, 03:51:39 AM
Hi doug...an ungodly attitude can be brought down to others.An example that is obvious is sexual abuse,promiscuity. If a child grows up in this or even senses it ,the child will be affected.It is a spirit we can come into line with...when it is exposed it can manifest in different ways and when it does "deliverance" can occur.
Some people have discernment of spirits(issues people may have)and know how to speak into the situation.
I don't see anything wrong or non biblical with this.
blessings :icon_king:

I agree OT and showing up again is part of what I was referring to when I spoke of seeing someone such as parents repeatedly commit a sin without any repentance or resulting punishment.

On the other hand as far as deliverance goes unfortunately all I have ever seen in anyone including those who claim to have been delivered or claim to have "completely delivered others" has been an improvement in the individual that may or may not remain to be seen as a deliverance. Because some of these "deliverance ministries" are well known in the UR camp I will refrain from mentioning names but  I will confess that I wish that their claims were true..........but when I talk to the individuals who have been "delivered" from a lust they tell me that they still have to deal with the temptation just as the ones that have had demonic body manifestations tend to return......... for that matter sometimes I have set them free again but I am not believing that it has been something permanent for them.


Blessings

Doug

Hi Doug...once you see it happening you will know its possible,
One of the things that kept me from proceeding with "deliverance" was my pride and stubborness,lets say I manifested ,this was dealt with and I'm free from it.
We must confess our sins ,even the ones that are suppressed, then we can be free
blessings  :icon_king:

Quote from: onlytruth on January 21, 2010, 06:47:23 PM
Hi Doug...once you see it happening you will know its possible,
One of the things that kept me from proceeding with "deliverance" was my pride and stubborness,lets say I manifested ,this was dealt with and I'm free from it.
We must confess our sins ,even the ones that are suppressed, then we can be free
blessings  :icon_king:

See it happen ????????

I am speaking from experience and seeing it happen lots of times  :thumbsup:

I have seen several that claim to have been delivered yet fall right back into the same sin and under the same demons....... like I said in an earlier post I have seen others who have been delivered of seizures and all kinds of sin yet still I had to deliver them again......... and there is nothing in scripture to say that they will not be repossessed yet again by the same demonic spirits and to the contrary there are verses that say just that !!!

I have on request traveled across country to minister unto individuals who have given public testimony of their deliverance just see them still in need of deliverance again !!!!

OT......... read the parable of the unclean spirit Matt 12 and Luke 11....... when it goes out of a man what according to Jesus does it very often do????????....... The answer is........ It goes right back and the person is worse off then they ever were in the first place Many of the times the reason something like that happens is because they thought that they had been delivered when all Satan was doing was setting the person up for a downfall THROUGH USING A DELIVERANCE MINISTRY TO CARYY OUT HIS WORK IN THE CHURCH!!!

What gives these deliverance ministries the right to trump what Jesus teaches is very likely to happen and consequently they just set up some poor sucker because of their lack of their understanding the truth a real letdown in their belief when the same evil spirit returns unto them  :sigh:

Heck I have seen and heard some of the leaders best known deliverance ministries being caused by God to stop and expose their own sins right in the middle of a sentence........ then LOL go right on with planning a deliverance conference "for those who need it"

Blessings

Doug

 :cloud9::cloud9: Amen to a lot of your post Doug, and I was especially blessed by what you said about the kingdoms of this world and the reason for the seed of man not falling to the ground.

The only thing I can't agree with is God not removing the "tares", which is what Matt. 13 is dealing with in the harvest parable. The reason He would not remove the thorn in Paul's flesh I believe is because that "thorn" was the carnal mind and Paul was a man born out of season, in that it was not time yet for all the knowledge he had been given to fully manifest.

The frustrating thing to me is that I've heard many over the years belie the need for wisdom from the Lord, not realizing that this wisdom is given for the purpose of MANIFESTING it in and thru our mortal bodies (as well as the mortal bodies of others thru the gifts), as well as strengthening our inner man.

We're not learning for the sake of learning ANYTHING, we are to learn thru the Spirit of the Lord because it is the catalyst for CHANGE, culminating in the final transformation, ie. that mortality be swallowed up of immortality.

And onlytruth I agree those are some reasons deliverance doesn't come forth, but the main reason I think is unbelief and that they have never been taught about it in the first place.

And Doug, the reason why some are not "successful" to our eyes, is because that the spirit returns for some time to try to get back in, and not a lot of teaching is out there on how to stand against it. This is the same reason people who are healed of something by the Lord, later "lose" their healing; they didn't know it would come back, even with lying symptoms, to get them to accept it back.

However; once it is stood against in the power of His might and our authority and dominion given us over the "beasts of the field" is maintained, it will not return. This is why it says resist the devil and he will FLEE.

I'll share something out of my own experience. I had a severe back injury (4 ruptured discs in total) for about 4 years before I came to the Lord. About 3 months after I came to the Lord, I was slain in the Spirit (the falling backwards you see in some ministries) and felt a tremendous heat going up and down the paralyzed leg all the way up to my back, for about a half hour. When I could stand, it was obvious I was healed. I had been tested and diagnosed prior to this.

So to make a long story short, I asked the Lord how this could be? I had not asked for healing and no one laid hands on me and prayed for me. He reminded me of when they built the temple the Lord told them to go get the Egyptians and the Chaldeans (formerly their enemies, obviously), for them to do their part in the building of the temple to His specifications.

After their part in the temple building was done, they left and the priests cleansed the place with blood and the glory of the Lord came in. In other words, He uses the unclean things to build the temple and when their work is done (the person has overcome) He tells them to leave.

So He told me I had overcome the darkness that brought the injury in the first place, and so there was no need for the "workman" any further, and it left. However, a year later, I was standing in the kitchen and suddenly felt the all too familiar knife in my back type of pain and couldn't straighten up.

I was talking to myself, trying to figure out if I had done something as in lifting something heavy recently or what, and when I could come up with no natural reason for the pain again, I asked Him and He told me it was a "lying symptom". Just the thought that it would try to come back made me mad, and I stomped my foot on the floor (not recommended with back pain, LOL) and yelled at it to get off me, I was healed. It immediately left.

So I went from being told 26 years ago that I'd be in a wheelchair by age 30 (I was 26 at the time) to commanding the thing off me that was trying to put me there. In the past 26 years I have lifted plenty of heavy things, and have never had a day of pain like I experienced or any paralysis. Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed, but we must use the authority and dominion He has given us, "to till the ground."

Another incident of this type happened a year after He miraculously healed me of terminal cancer. The Lord told me to go to a particular meeting I had received notice of in the mail, and I met someone who ministered that night and she had a word from the Lord for me. She said, "The Lord is saying something about an issue of blood, but you are not to worry about it."

The NEXT DAY, I started to hemorrhage again. Again, it was a year later (not sure why it seems to be a year?). Of course, my mind and the minds of those around me, were trying their best to convince me I was not healed, as was my body. I literally was telling my mind and my body they were liars.

Again, 7 weeks later, He tells me to go to a particular meeting over in Ohio. I went, and the pastor whom I knew had an anointing, said that the Lord had told him that in that service he would be used particularly to touch those that needed physical healing. I thought, this is why He brought me, only to hear Him say "no" when I asked Him if I should go forward for healing.

So there I sat, wondering why I wasn't to go forward. I stayed to pray for others when it was over (in my seat), and as I was done and getting ready to leave, the woman who had the meeting, came up to me. The anointing hit both of us as she said, "I got a word from the Lord for you. He said, because of your obedience, you're healed!"

Now I had hemorrhaged for 7 weeks exactly at this point. It stopped by that evening. That was 13 years ago and I've never had to deal with it again. Blessings....

Hi Doug....I guess part of the solution is ,the person must want to be delivered so they can  be used as a vessel of the Lord, people called of God will submit and stand firm others might not
blessings :icon_king:

That was a nice story Rebecca....... thanks for sharing

As soon as I read of you praying for the healing of others I knew what was coming your way

Anyway

As you know I do listen to what you have to say and I did hear from the Lord regarding the tares and the casting out of demons. Basically His reply was that they are apples and oranges because they are not the same thing.

Tares look like the wheat until the harvest is ready but demons look like demons right from the get go and Jesus would not say for us to just let them be until the time of the harvest. What the tares are is words and doctrines of those who teach who still need to be taught. Like Satan's angels who are transformed to appear as messengers of righteousness they are delivered unto us through the mouths of pastors, priests as well in particular in this day in age online ministries that have just enough of what is right to snare God's children into lowering their guard and then filling them with damnable heresies.

It was not until very recently that I became aware that the Lord would have me to start posting again and it is because we have approached a critical time and it is necessary to have a purifying of the word that is being given unto God's children. It is this purifying of the word that is being taught that will bring forth truths that will dispel the lies that look like good wheat and are still in those who have been called to come forward. However because of the errors in their knowledge of what is true is what is keeping them stuck in the earth making them unable to be harvested at this time and caught up to be with Him. That dear sister is what the removing of the tares is.

On the other hand demons appear evil in everything they do....... if not checked in time those who are overcome by demons will become a breeding ground and a gathering place drawing others to them.......... kinda like visiting bars in the red light districts and seeing how all the different vices of man all gather together where misery loves company.

This word given today supports what was given to me several years ago when I quit posting because of when God told me to re-read Jonah as He had a critical message for me there. I was outside working in the yard when that word came to me and I thought to myself that I certainly do not need to re-read that little book because I already knew all what that little book had to say (as in who does not?). Still He kept up with telling me I had to go back and read Jonah again so finally after a couple of days of me resisting Him I broke down and went to the Book of Jonah

Soon I was saying to Him "Look Lord there is nothing here for me" as I was near to the end of Jonah but in that particular Bible the last two verses of Jonah require the page be turned over in order to be read...... that was when the last verse jumped off the page at me

Jonah 4:11 11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?.

I was fighting with everyone and there were a lot of false doctrines getting the light shined on them but the truth was not being accepted other than by them who already had a grasp on it. But the fighting was causing lots of long term damage and the Lord was telling me that He was going to forgive all others just as He had forgiven me. However he was also saying that it was not the time for me to be contending with others and that there was still more yet to be learned by me.

Now I believe it is the time for the tares that are the lies that have been taught to God's children to be gathered together and put through the fire of His pure word.

The rest of the word is that Demons can only do damage within those where they are more powerful than the words that has been taught them....... this is the lack of Godly furnishings that will keep the demons away from when the unclean spirit returns and finds the place from where he was cast out of "garnished" because of the presence of the seed of the Holy Spirit but "swept clean' because of the missing  knowledge that is contained within the Ark that is not where it is supposed to be.

Moving on..........

Regarding demons, after my many years of walking in the underworld and eventually becoming a significant leader of a very successful criminal enterprise I am very aware of evil spirits. However it is them who are now bound and chained rather than me and these days they very seldom are the cause of any more trouble other than an occasional brief reminder that they will always be in my flesh........ and as long as I am ruled by the Lord they never will be a problem unto me or others but do serve as a testimony to His power, truth and love.  :thumbsup:

Blessings to you

Doug

 :cloud9: Hi again Doug......yes, I can see what you're saying. I did not mean to infer that tares are demons, but rather evil spirits.

I'm not sure what the difference is, but there is a difference. So because evil spirits are as a breath, sort of, and His breath is revelation that quickens or makes alive, so I can follow with you that they could be considered lies. Anything that is not of the Truth that is Christ, is a lie.

He showed them to me as antichrists. Antichrist literally means AGAINST Christ and they literally stand as a sort of false covering blocking out His light, like the staves of a barrel over a candle, is the way He showed it to me. So obviously the more "staves" that are removed and thrown into the fire, the more the light of the candle can shine out.

This, by the way, is how He showed me the rapture was a lie. Blessings.....

Hi.  Are you guys saying a born-again believer, called and chosen as part of the ecclesia of God - those of whom scripture says "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it" -  "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher/Completer of our faith" - "predestined to good works" - those who have the royal blood of Jesus flowing through their veins - in essence, New Covenant believers miraculously saved and SEALED with the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 1:13,14) - has demons in them still, or can have demons return into them?  

Not unbelievers, unregenerated, unredeemed individuals who may have experienced a deliverance, but still not yet of the household of God - but the saints mentioned above in the first paragraph;  God's temple?  

I don't believe when God decides it's our time to personally taste of His grace and seal us with the Holy Spirit of promise, that He leaves our salvation in a tenuous position - I believe He ensures the endurance to the end.

I guess if a christian wanted one they could have one, but why would they want one?

 :cloud9: Personally, I'm not talking about a Christian having a demon, but evil spirits, yes. Our spirit is saved first, then our soul, then our body. They reside in the soul. Working out your own salvation/deliverance with fear and trembling, is the removal of the tares from your soul.

Ever have a thought you KNOW was not you? It was either on the inside or the outside, "speaking" to you. Blessings....

Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2010, 01:49:02 AM
Hi.  Are you guys saying a born-again believer, called and chosen as part of the ecclesia of God - those of whom scripture says "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it" -  "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher/Completer of our faith" - "predestined to good works" - those who have the royal blood of Jesus flowing through their veins - in essence, New Covenant believers miraculously saved and SEALED with the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 1:13,14) - has demons in them still, or can have demons return into them?  

Not unbelievers, unregenerated, unredeemed individuals who may have experienced a deliverance, but still not yet of the household of God - but the saints mentioned above in the first paragraph;  God's temple?  

A good question........

The old man in us does not change and darkness is never changed to light.

However Christians are given a new spirit to be the source of their life and that spirit is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ that has no sin. As long as one is being led by faith aka Holy Spirit in them then it does not matter what the "old man" Adam in us who has Eve and all her sinful desires for a wife wants to bring forth.

Once Adam who is an unclean spirit is allowed to return and rule over that which has been bought and paid for by Christ Jesus even when they desire to do good (bring forth Abel) it is usually just a matter of time before "Adam" along with Eve will bring forth Cain who will lay and wait for an opportunity to rise up and slay Abel.

IMO most Christians are still being led by Adam despite having the Holy Spirit in them. They are doing their best to continually bring forth good (Abel) but in time Cain who is stronger will eventually usurp Abel and then all sorts of evil will begin to manifest even though the individual may well have already been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

That is why sometime you hear of Christians committing horrible crimes or on a lesser scale for example when we see the heads of ministries falling deep into sin bringing condemnation from a world that is always ready to judge Christians.

It is a matter of which master we serve Jabcat....... if Christ rules in us and "our eye is single" and focussed on Him everything is cool but if we are double minded because the old man in us is mature while the Holy Spirit is only slightly developed, our emotions and lack of knowledge might easily allow the old man to return (aka unclean spirit) and then trouble is soon to follow.

Man is a spirit in a body and when the disciples wanted to call down fire Jesus said "you know not want manner of spirit you are" as a lesson to us that while we may think that we are following Christ we can easily be tricked into allowing the old unclean spirit to return. This particular time was caused by the spirit of judgement and accusing others of sin when we are forgetting that He died for us while we too were still living in sin. 

I would suppose that the above may bring forth more questions...... that IMO is good.

Blessings

Doug

I'm going to think about this further.  But for now, is it fair to say that it's being stated;  there is a difference between a demon and an evil spirit;  an evil spirit and the Holy Spirit of God can dwell in the same vessel;  and/OR that the vessel actually has "different compartments" that can be ruled by different entities;  in essence, that one can be a child of God, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise and still have evil spirits inside them?

A thought to consider (which I think is often the case) is pre-cross vs. post-cross experience.  For example Doug, IMO, the disciples who walked with Jesus had not as yet been regenerated and filled with the Holy Spirit.  I would think some significant issues would likely be in play there.

Thanks for the replies, much to consider.  James. 

 :cloud9: Thanks for the witness Doug......it came to me one day last year that the spirit of Adam was the unclean spirit that returned to the house that was swept but not garnished, but I couldn't see how that "fit". More to chew on  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Quote from: Livelystone on January 22, 2010, 12:32:03 AM

we have approached a critical time

Hi Doug,
Would you please describe what this critical time is and how you have come to this determination.
Thanks, Dave.

" in the natural there is a move to return the one law here in the USA "

Hi Doug and thanks.
I don't intend to be a pest and but I need to ask another question.
What exactly is this move/one law you speak about in your quote.
Thanks, Dave.

as a reply to the first question.

it is impossible reply #29

the only persons that believe this is those that don't understand or lack knowledge of God.

 :cloud9: Which first question are you answering Lee?

....

Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2010, 01:49:02 AM
Hi.  Are you guys saying a born-again believer, called and chosen as part of the ecclesia of God - those of whom scripture says "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it" -  "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher/Completer of our faith" - "predestined to good works" - those who have the royal blood of Jesus flowing through their veins - in essence, New Covenant believers miraculously saved and SEALED with the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 1:13,14) - has demons in them still, or can have demons return into them?  

Not unbelievers, unregenerated, unredeemed individuals who may have experienced a deliverance, but still not yet of the household of God - but the saints mentioned above in the first paragraph;  God's temple?  

This is the quote that "I" say is impossible......cant happen....

Lee Damboise II

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 01:05:18 AM

Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2010, 01:49:02 AM
Hi.  Are you guys saying a born-again believer, called and chosen as part of the ecclesia of God - those of whom scripture says "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it" -  "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher/Completer of our faith" - "predestined to good works" - those who have the royal blood of Jesus flowing through their veins - in essence, New Covenant believers miraculously saved and SEALED with the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 1:13,14) - has demons in them still, or can have demons return into them?  

Not unbelievers, unregenerated, unredeemed individuals who may have experienced a deliverance, but still not yet of the household of God - but the saints mentioned above in the first paragraph;  God's temple?  

This is the quote that "I" say is impossible......cant happen....

Lee Damboise II

Ok Lee....... how about something we all read about not to long ago.


Some family man has been doing God's work for many years and finally becomes a pastor and recognized national Christian leader.

But then after a few more years of that ends up in a drug/homosexual encounter with a male prostitute.

How do you explain what happened to him.......... Are you going to say that this person was never "saved"?

Blessings

Doug

I'll simply put it this way, it is really too bad that he made the body have sex with the same sex.

The Christ had sex with that man...

because you know I am not a believer in sin...
all sin was done away with when Christ killed death about 2010 years ago.

So that man did not sin, he just offended the religious minds of this day...
The religious people that think there are laws to follow to make one a transgressor.

Lee

Doug. I am still working on another project for you too, I didn't forget, just dont like being imperfect with a guy like you that words have so many meanings,

Lee, I thought you were replying to the first question I asked Doug last night (#24).
That had nothing to do with Jabcat.
This has gotten a little confusing.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 01:05:18 AM

Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2010, 01:49:02 AM
Hi.  Are you guys saying a born-again believer, called and chosen as part of the ecclesia of God - those of whom scripture says "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it" -  "looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher/Completer of our faith" - "predestined to good works" - those who have the royal blood of Jesus flowing through their veins - in essence, New Covenant believers miraculously saved and SEALED with the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 1:13,14) - has demons in them still, or can have demons return into them?  

Not unbelievers, unregenerated, unredeemed individuals who may have experienced a deliverance, but still not yet of the household of God - but the saints mentioned above in the first paragraph;  God's temple?  

This is the quote that "I" say is impossible......cant happen....

Lee Damboise II

:cloud9: You're entitled to have your opinion Lee, but I have 23 years of first hand knowledge, experience, which along with the Word, says otherwise.

You not realizing it is a "given", because He designed it to be that way, does however explain how you could be misled into thinking that it's all done and all anyone has to do is proclaim it's all done, since Jesus did it all 2000 years ago. There is a difference between Him doing it and us appropriating what was done. Blessings....

Okay

Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 23, 2010, 01:59:04 AM

Lee, I thought you were replying to the first question I asked Doug last night (#24).
That had nothing to do with Jabcat.
This has gotten a little confusing.

Hey David, who's on first?   :laughing7:

Who's on first, Delete is on second and Edit is on third.

 :laugh: :rolllol:   :thumbsup:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on January 23, 2010, 04:34:09 AM


Who's on first, Delete is on second and Edit is on third.

PM was a home run

 :laughing7:  I started to say I had no response.  But then I realized that would be a strike-out. :happy3:

Okay, where "spellcheck"

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I've never known how to find it, much less use it.  [Cop out]   Martin, as the admin, is able to see and manipulate more of the controls/buttons/switches than the mods, though I should know the spell checker anyway..but anyway, I'm with you - I don't know.  :mblush:

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 01:41:06 AM
I'll simply put it this way, it is really too bad that he made the body have sex with the same sex.

The Christ had sex with that man...

because you know I am not a believer in sin...
all sin was done away with when Christ killed death about 2010 years ago.

So that man did not sin, he just offended the religious minds of this day...
The religious people that think there are laws to follow to make one a transgressor.

Lee

It sounds like you're blaming Christ for your own reprobate mind, which doesn't mean I begrudge you having at least a toe-hold in the kingdom of heaven.  Jesus says quite the opposite of what you're intimating above here:

Matthew 5:17-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
17 "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.
18 For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.
19 "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens."

Quote from: onlytruth on January 21, 2010, 10:47:47 PM
Hi Doug....I guess part of the solution is ,the person must want to be delivered so they can  be used as a vessel of the Lord, people called of God will submit and stand firm others might not
blessings :icon_king:

I cannot imagine anyone ever submitting to someone who claims that they could deliver them of a demon and the person submitting not want to be delivered.....At the same time I cannot imagine anyone who has ever been to the Cross not wanting to be a vessel used by God........... Anyone who does not want to be vessel used by God has never been to the Cross and felt the love of God live in their hearts .........neither one of your "guesses" makes any sense at all OT.

Lets not confuse the redemptive work of Jesus with the so called claimed ability of anyone person's claim to be able to deliver people of demons...... after all one of the two specific ministries that Jesus says that He will have nothing to do with individuals practicing it are those claiming to to do the works of apostles because they have cast out devils in His Name

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I have seen permanent miracles (for as long as the person receiving the miracle lived) from when God has told someone to go lay hands on someone but whenever I see people doing it on their own at best I see is something temporary......and that Dear Saints of the Kingdom is speaking kindly.

Those who go about thinking they cast out devils IMO usually end up taking them on themselves and I have seen some otherwise good people with good intentions fall from from walking in accordance with the Lord simply because they went where they were not given the level of anointing needed to minister where THEY chose to minister.

Then the bottom line is that a demon cast out is just going to go somewhere else........ IMO far better to strengthen the individual with the truth so that the seed that is Christ in them grows into a fruit baring tree consequently making all demons that live in their flesh to be of no effect!!!! ......... and one thing you can take to the bank......... if one has ever participated in sin there are demons within their flesh and they are there from waaaaaaay back from when God cursed the serpent in Genesis.

Satan even said to Jesus that the kingdoms of man were given to him and they were given to him by God. Those kingdoms are spiritual kingdoms are the spirit and soul of man (Adam & Eve) that resides in the flesh (body) of a man.......... so who is any man to think that he can separate what God has put together??????

Walk into most groups of Christians prophesying and laying hands and casting out devils and you have found one of Satan's training centers for how to keep Christians from coming into the fullness of their inheritance.   :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Satan is a spirit and has lived in the flesh of every man ever since Adam got the boot from the garden....... That is how he has taken over and runs the world through gaining control of the spirit and soul of man. Until Christians start to learn how to trample him down there is no hope for the world and all these ministries claiming this and that and a lot of other #$$%^&* are not helping things one bit. In fact they are the source of the problem and are just one more "synagogue of satan" that Jesus condemns in Revelations!!!!

Christians are the only group of human beings on earth who through the baptism of the Holy Spirt have been given the law of faith that is in them through presence of Christ in them that is more powerful than the law of sin that exists in every human being on earth.

The law of sin still exists in Christians after receiving the Holy Spirit that is the free gift of salvation and is the power needed to overcome the law of sin in them but unfortunately Christians are 99.9% ignorant to the law of sin and how the mystery of iniquity works.  :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:

The law of sin is the messenger of satan in man and there is no person on God's green earth that has the ability to cast him out of anyone else........ Paul realized this but learned to overcome and when today's Christians learn to do the same it will be because someone is finally teaching them the truth.

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: reFORMer on January 23, 2010, 07:33:25 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 01:41:06 AM
I'll simply put it this way, it is really too bad that he made the body have sex with the same sex.

The Christ had sex with that man...

because you know I am not a believer in sin...
all sin was done away with when Christ killed death about 2010 years ago.

So that man did not sin, he just offended the religious minds of this day...
The religious people that think there are laws to follow to make one a transgressor.

Lee

It sounds like you're blaming Christ for your own reprobate mind, which doesn't mean I begrudge you having at least a toe-hold in the kingdom of heaven.  Jesus says quite the opposite of what you're intimating above here:

Matthew 5:17-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
17 "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.
18 For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.
19 "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens."

The above Red is what I proclaim has happened in that The Christ fulfilled his mission.... He was victor in the above. Now I know that we do not always agree on many things  and this is ok with me. some of us have crosses to bare. But "about" 2000 years ago The Christ was victor, and the "NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH IS HERE NOW"  AND LIKE IN ADAM ALL DIED, "NOW" IN CHRIST ALL "HAS" BEEN MADE NEW.... CREATION-VIVIFIED , MADE ALIVE...

Lee Damboise II

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 03:41:07 PM

Quote from: reFORMer on January 23, 2010, 07:33:25 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 01:41:06 AM
I'll simply put it this way, it is really too bad that he made the body have sex with the same sex.

The Christ had sex with that man...

because you know I am not a believer in sin...
all sin was done away with when Christ killed death about 2010 years ago.

So that man did not sin, he just offended the religious minds of this day...
The religious people that think there are laws to follow to make one a transgressor.

Lee

It sounds like you're blaming Christ for your own reprobate mind, which doesn't mean I begrudge you having at least a toe-hold in the kingdom of heaven.  Jesus says quite the opposite of what you're intimating above here:

Matthew 5:17-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
17 "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.
18 For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.
19 "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens."

The above Red is what I proclaim has happened in that The Christ fulfilled his mission.... He was victor in the above. Now I know that we do not always agree on many things  and this is ok with me. some of us have crosses to bare. But "about" 2000 years ago The Christ was victor, and the "NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH IS HERE NOW"  AND LIKE IN ADAM ALL DIED, "NOW" IN CHRIST ALL "HAS" BEEN MADE NEW.... CREATION-VIVIFIED , MADE ALIVE...

Lee Damboise II

Lee......

When our Lord lived the life that He did and still went to Cross to be sin for us and was then raised by the power of God on the dawn of the third day he led captivity into becoming captive to the law of faith that is Christ Jesus within us.

Christ in man NEVER ever tempts anyone with sin nor ever causes anyone to sin that is any act that is contrary to His Law......... Should He choose to in order to accomplish His Purpose He may lift His Hand of protection off of someone that in turn MAY or May Not cause the person to sin........ for one who did not read the story of Job.

Just as Jesus was born from the womb of the virgin Mary, He started out in her as THE SEED THAT IS CHRIST in her womb and THEN ONLY did He later mature into the Tree of Life aka the Jesus we know and love.

The process of Christ becoming a fruit baring tree within you or me must follow the same path........ He is not born in us as a full grown man......... He is given unto us as a seed that must be fed heavenly food from above and not be fertilized with earthly dung such as what is taught to God's children today.......... the Bible gives us an example of that and what will eventually happen......

Luke 13 6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

The seed of Christ will never mature being fed the &*()_+%^& it has been for 2000 years but now is the time spoken of by the prophet Daniel when knowledge shall be increased. Soon we will start to more and more signs of Christ on earth until finally just as John saw in Revelations we on earth will see the image and likeness of God walking amongst us doing greater works and acting so much like Jesus that not even those who walked with Jesus will be able to tell any difference between the two.

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: Livelystone on January 23, 2010, 04:17:39 PM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 03:41:07 PM

Quote from: reFORMer on January 23, 2010, 07:33:25 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 01:41:06 AM
I'll simply put it this way, it is really too bad that he made the body have sex with the same sex.

The Christ had sex with that man...

because you know I am not a believer in sin...
all sin was done away with when Christ killed death about 2010 years ago.

So that man did not sin, he just offended the religious minds of this day...
The religious people that think there are laws to follow to make one a transgressor.

Lee

It sounds like you're blaming Christ for your own reprobate mind, which doesn't mean I begrudge you having at least a toe-hold in the kingdom of heaven.  Jesus says quite the opposite of what you're intimating above here:

Matthew 5:17-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
17 "You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.
18 For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.
19 "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens."

The above Red is what I proclaim has happened in that The Christ fulfilled his mission.... He was victor in the above. Now I know that we do not always agree on many things  and this is ok with me. some of us have crosses to bare. But "about" 2000 years ago The Christ was victor, and the "NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH IS HERE NOW"  AND LIKE IN ADAM ALL DIED, "NOW" IN CHRIST ALL "HAS" BEEN MADE NEW.... CREATION-VIVIFIED , MADE ALIVE...

Lee Damboise II

Lee's comments are in Red
Lee......

When our Lord lived the life that He did and still went to Cross to be sin for us and was then raised by the power of God on the dawn of the third day he led captivity into becoming captive to the law of faith that is Christ Jesus within us. (((  ???   ))))
(So when do you believe the Christ comes in you/Me)
Christ in man NEVER ever tempts anyone with sin nor ever causes anyone to sin that is any act that is contrary to His Law( Redirect statement to lose the readers)......... Should He choose to in order to accomplish His Purpose He may lift His Hand of protection off of someone that in turn MAY or May Not cause the person to sin ( sin-transgression of the Law???? )........ for one who did not read the story of Job.

Just as Jesus was born from the womb of the virgin Mary( If you believe that story), He started out in her as THE SEED THAT IS CHRIST in her womb and THEN ONLY did He later mature (Okay with this part of the Catholic story) into the Tree of Life aka the Jesus we know and love.

The process of Christ becoming a fruit baring tree within you or me must follow the same path........ He is not born in us as a full grown man......... He is given unto us as a seed that must be fed heavenly food from above and not be fertilized with earthly crap/dung such as what is taught to God's children today..........(most all Catholic lies) the Bible gives us an example of that and what will eventually happen......

Luke 13 6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. (great learning example for Israel)

The seed of Christ will never mature being fed the &*()_+%^& it has been for 2000 years but now is ( that you and I hear the truth of ALL THINGS "HAVE BEEEEEEEEEN MADE NEW")the time spoken of by the prophet Daniel when knowledge shall be increased. Soon we will start to more and more signs of Christ on earth until finally just as John saw in Revelations we on earth will see the image and likeness of God walking amongst us doing greater works and acting so much like Jesus that not even those who walked with Jesus will be able to tell any difference between the two.  (Doug, come meet this Son of God, and you will Meet the Living Christ, and ALL the signs will follow if you watch me long enough>)

Blessings

Doug

Lee' comment are in red and a few bold prints

Quote from: Livelystone on January 23, 2010, 03:27:04 PM
Lets not confuse the redemptive work of Jesus with the so called claimed ability of anyone person's claim to be able to deliver people of demons...... after all one of the two specific ministries that Jesus says that He will have nothing to do with individuals practicing it are those claiming to to do the works of apostles because they have cast out devils in His Name

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I have seen permanent miracles (for as long as the person receiving the miracle lived) from when God has told someone to go lay hands on someone but whenever I see people doing it on their own at best I see is something temporary......and that Dear Saints of the Kingdom is speaking kindly.

Those who go about thinking they cast out devils IMO usually end up taking them on themselves and I have seen some otherwise good people with good intentions fall from from walking in accordance with the Lord simply because they went where they were not given the level of anointing needed to minister where THEY chose to minister.

Then the bottom line is that a demon cast out is just going to go somewhere else........ IMO far better to strengthen the individual with the truth so that the seed that is Christ in them grows into a fruit baring tree consequently making all demons that live in their flesh to be of no effect!!!! ......... and one thing you can take to the bank......... if one has ever participated in sin there are demons within their flesh and they are there from waaaaaaay back from when God cursed the serpent in Genesis.

Satan even said to Jesus that the kingdoms of man were given to him and they were given to him by God. Those kingdoms are spiritual kingdoms are the spirit and soul of man (Adam & Eve) that resides in the flesh (body) of a man.......... so who is any man to think that he can separate what God has put together??????

Walk into most groups of Christians prophesying and laying hands and casting out devils and you have found one of Satan's training centers for how to keep Christians from coming into the fullness of their inheritance.   :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Satan is a spirit and has lived in the flesh of every man ever since Adam got the boot from the garden....... That is how he has taken over and runs the world through gaining control of the spirit and soul of man. Until Christians start to learn how to trample him down there is no hope for the world and all these ministries claiming this and that and a lot of other #$$%^&* are not helping things one bit. In fact they are the source of the problem and are just one more "synagogue of satan" that Jesus condemns in Revelations!!!!

:cloud9: Sorry Doug, but while I agree you MUST be lead of the Lord to deal with this aspect of our walk (and He anoints and equips you to do what He calls you to do), you have not understood that He was NOT talking against anyone doing it in Mathew 7, but rather "condemning" those who try it without having RELATIONSHIP with Him, ie. knowing Him as a man knows his wife, one with Christ.

The 7 sons of Sceva had this problem when they went to cast out a demon using His name superstitiously like a magic chant, without having the relationship and covering to back up their mere words. The demonized man beat the living life out of them and sent them running.

Acts 19:13  Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you  by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.  14  And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.   15  And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?   16  And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

So actually just the opposite is true, as He also said here in Mark after giving them the commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Note that these "signs" follow them that believe that preach the gospel, and that the Lord Himself worked with them, confirming the Word with these signs following.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth  and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned .  17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.  19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.   20  And they went forth, and preached every where,the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

:cloud9: Also notice here the message for Herod. A day is like a thousand years, and so today and tomorrow are 2000 years, the days of the realm of Pentecost, He is casting out devils with those that believe.

I might also add that, in principle, He "sneakily" had the same thing being repeated by the church for 2000 years by the reciting of the Lord's prayer. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done", IN EARTH, as it is in heaven; what was His will in heaven? To kick Satan and his minions out. The same then is His will IN our "earth" (Adam was taken from the dust of the earth). Blessings..

Luke 13:32 KJV And he said unto them, Go ye , and tell that fox, Behold , I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected .

Quote from: Livelystone on January 23, 2010, 04:17:39 PM
Just as Jesus was born from the womb of the virgin Mary, He started out in her as THE SEED THAT IS CHRIST in her womb and THEN ONLY did He later mature into the Tree of Life aka the Jesus we know and love.

The process of Christ becoming a fruit baring tree within you or me must follow the same path........ He is not born in us as a full grown man......... He is given unto us as a seed that must be fed heavenly food from above and not be fertilized with earthly dung such as what is taught to God's children today.......... the Bible gives us an example of that and what will eventually happen......

Luke 13 6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

:cloud9: Agree  :thumbsup:

Lee....... If you love Jesus you will take His Commandments into consideration rather than create your own image of God.

One of His commandments to you is to live by every word that comes from God and not just those that sound like something you can live with.

God does not change and what God said is sin is still sin !!!....... the ethnicity of person does not matter as the law given to the Jews also applied to others who wanted the blessings that God made available to the Jews......... suggest you keep that in mind !!

Any transgression of His law is sin and He did not give different laws to one person than he did the next other than the closer you draw to Him the more that is required of you (such as priests were given laws that the rest of the jews were not)

When that preacher had sex with that male prostitute that was a work of sin that came through the desires of his flesh under the influence of Satan and no one else...... There is no sin in Jesus ........ never was and never will be....... he does not tempt with sin nor does He ever make anyone commit  a sin.......... Saying that Christ made some male body have sex with another male body is not just bordering on blasphemy against all the Holy Spirt teaches and I strongly suggest you consider who is the origin of that thought given unto you.

God never causes anyone to sin.......... only Satan causes a person to sin and if you do not accept the existence of Satan then who or what name do you blame any of your own sins on?

And you really need to get all that garbage out of you about no such thing as sin........... that is totally contrary to God "s Word and BTW do you not give God any credit ????.......... Do you really think that God would allow the most common printed account of Him available to His creation aka the Holy Bible to be filled with lies?

Now I need to scoot

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: Cardinal on January 23, 2010, 05:54:34 PM

Quote from: Livelystone on January 23, 2010, 03:27:04 PM
Lets not confuse the redemptive work of Jesus with the so called claimed ability of anyone person's claim to be able to deliver people of demons...... after all one of the two specific ministries that Jesus says that He will have nothing to do with individuals practicing it are those claiming to to do the works of apostles because they have cast out devils in His Name

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I have seen permanent miracles (for as long as the person receiving the miracle lived) from when God has told someone to go lay hands on someone but whenever I see people doing it on their own at best I see is something temporary......and that Dear Saints of the Kingdom is speaking kindly.

Those who go about thinking they cast out devils IMO usually end up taking them on themselves and I have seen some otherwise good people with good intentions fall from from walking in accordance with the Lord simply because they went where they were not given the level of anointing needed to minister where THEY chose to minister.

Then the bottom line is that a demon cast out is just going to go somewhere else........ IMO far better to strengthen the individual with the truth so that the seed that is Christ in them grows into a fruit baring tree consequently making all demons that live in their flesh to be of no effect!!!! ......... and one thing you can take to the bank......... if one has ever participated in sin there are demons within their flesh and they are there from waaaaaaay back from when God cursed the serpent in Genesis.

Satan even said to Jesus that the kingdoms of man were given to him and they were given to him by God. Those kingdoms are spiritual kingdoms are the spirit and soul of man (Adam & Eve) that resides in the flesh (body) of a man.......... so who is any man to think that he can separate what God has put together??????

Walk into most groups of Christians prophesying and laying hands and casting out devils and you have found one of Satan's training centers for how to keep Christians from coming into the fullness of their inheritance.   :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

Satan is a spirit and has lived in the flesh of every man ever since Adam got the boot from the garden....... That is how he has taken over and runs the world through gaining control of the spirit and soul of man. Until Christians start to learn how to trample him down there is no hope for the world and all these ministries claiming this and that and a lot of other #$$%^&* are not helping things one bit. In fact they are the source of the problem and are just one more "synagogue of satan" that Jesus condemns in Revelations!!!!

:cloud9: Sorry Doug, but while I agree you MUST be lead of the Lord to deal with this aspect of our walk (and He anoints and equips you to do what He calls you to do), you have not understood that He was NOT talking against anyone doing it in Mathew 7, but rather "condemning" those who try it without having RELATIONSHIP with Him, ie. knowing Him as a man knows his wife, one with Christ.

The 7 sons of Sceva had this problem when they went to cast out a demon using His name superstitiously like a magic chant, without having the relationship and covering to back up their mere words. The demonized man beat the living life out of them and sent them running.

Acts 19:13  Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you  by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.  14  And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.   15  And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?   16  And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

So actually just the opposite is true, as He also said here in Mark after giving them the commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Note that these "signs" follow them that believe that preach the gospel, and that the Lord Himself worked with them, confirming the Word with these signs following.

Mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth  and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned .  17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.  19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.   20  And they went forth, and preached every where,the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

:cloud9: Also notice here the message for Herod. A day is like a thousand years, and so today and tomorrow are 2000 years, the days of the realm of Pentecost, He is casting out devils with those that believe.

I might also add that, in principle, He "sneakily" had the same thing being repeated by the church for 2000 years by the reciting of the Lord's prayer. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done", IN EARTH, as it is in heaven; what was His will in heaven? To kick Satan and his minions out. The same then is His will IN our "earth" (Adam was taken from the dust of the earth). Blessings..

Luke 13:32 KJV And he said unto them, Go ye , and tell that fox, Behold , I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected .

Card ....... only Apostles and Jesus are for real casting out demons........... As I said do not confuse the works of the Lord with those of sinful man. On the other hand I do believe that is a coming ministry but I have yet to see it on earth. When it starts to happen the whole world will know of it because it will be so obvious

When you can show me someone who has been delivered of sin meaning that they walk just as Jesus does I will accept what you are saying

Just one little itty bitty person in the whole wide world........ is that fair enough?

BTW what you are being shown when those people that were trying to cast out demons but were overcome by them is exactly what I am saying....... that they were not sent by God to do that and neither are those who think otherwise today.

The last two preachers of the four preachers I know personally that claimed to of cast out demons are both dead. The one I told Him if he was to go and do where he said he would that he would die there at the hands of a witch-doctor because he was going and doing what the Lord did not want him to do and that is exactly what happened......... the third one I have followed behind him rebuking Satan in one those that he claimed to have set free and my rebuke instantly set them free of a seizure but the demon is still there in them today !!! ......... the last preacher as far I know is still doing the works of Satan AND all four of these preachers have been or are present members of the UR online ministry world  :sigh:

Now until you can show me the the proof of one single satan/sin free person the subject is closed with me........ PERIOD

Blessings

Doug

Okay Doug, the Law says I can rape a child and pay the father 340 U.S. Dollars and that child is my wife for ever( any child that started her period, and is not engaged to another person any age...), but that is a Law that cant be enforced in the U.S.A. no seperation of Church and State,

Deu 22:28  If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29  Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

The Law of God is Sick.... and not for believers today, that Law is over....

Lee Damboise II

 :cloud9: I may not be understanding you right on this Doug, so if I am excuse me for asking, but are you confusing deliverance with the "casting out of Satan himself thus making one perfect", by your beliefs on this?

Deliverance is not casting out Satan, but more like casting out his "offspring" or fruit of him that were formed from the union of him with the soul of men, such as lust, hate, greed, bitterness, jealousy, ect.

And as I said before the LORD instructs as to what is there, and IF it is to be removed at that point in time. Discernment MUST bow the knee to His perfect will, else the last state of that person is worse than before. Just because something is discerned, does NOT mean He wants it removed at that moment in time, because they may not be strong enough in Him to withstand the onslaught of the enemy trying to get back in.

As an example of this and how I learned the principle, once I was praying for an elder in a church. It was about an hour of the Lord pinpointing things to remove, and included an instantaneous healing of the man in one area.

When I got to the end, the Lord showed me a spirit of nicotine in the man's lungs (sorry smokers). Now I personally did not know the man, had no idea if he smoked or not. But just as I was going to open my mouth to command it out, the Lord spoke, "NO!" I was startled, because up to that point He had never shown me anything He DIDN'T want removed in the next 15 seconds.

So I asked Him why??? He said, "Tell him I have delivered him of this twice already, and twice he has taken it back. Tell him this time, he'll have to pray and fast to be delivered of it." (Being shown something like this is the gift of word of knowledge, for those of you who have never seen it in operation).

So I told the man, and he said that was true, adding, "Did He tell you how long I have to fast?"

So the point is, it's a PROCESS that continues until the 3rd day of perfection, as He said to Herod. We decrease, so that He can increase in us. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 23, 2010, 07:12:13 PM
:cloud9: I may not be understanding you right on this Doug, so if I am excuse me for asking, but are you confusing deliverance with the "casting out of Satan himself thus making one perfect", by your beliefs on this?

Deliverance is not casting out Satan, but more like casting out his "offspring" or fruit of him that were formed from the union of him with the soul of men, such as lust, hate, greed, bitterness, jealousy, ect.

And as I said before the LORD instructs as to what is there, and IF it is to be removed at that point in time. Discernment MUST bow the knee to His perfect will, else the last state of that person is worse than before. Just because something is discerned, does NOT mean He wants it removed at that moment in time, because they may not be strong enough in Him to withstand the onslaught of the enemy trying to get back in.

As an example of this and how I learned the principle, once I was praying for an elder in a church. It was about an hour of the Lord pinpointing things to remove, and included an instantaneous healing of the man in one area.

When I got to the end, the Lord showed me a spirit of nicotine in the man's lungs (sorry smokers). Now I personally did not know the man, had no idea if he smoked or not. But just as I was going to open my mouth to command it out, the Lord spoke, "NO!" I was startled, because up to that point He had never shown me anything He DIDN'T want removed in the next 15 seconds.

So I asked Him why??? He said, "Tell him I have delivered him of this twice already, and twice he has taken it back. Tell him this time, he'll have to pray and fast to be delivered of it." (Being shown something like this is the gift of word of knowledge, for those of you who have never seen it in operation).

So I told the man, and he said that was true, adding, "Did He tell you how long I have to fast?"

So the point is, it's a PROCESS that continues until the 3rd day of perfection, as He said to Herod. We decrease, so that He can increase in us. Blessings....

Well remind me to wear a lead suit when we meet  :mblush:

 :cloud9: ROFLOL...... :girlheart:

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 07:10:49 PM
Okay Doug, the Law says I can rape a child and pay the father 340 U.S. Dollars and that child is my wife for ever( any child that started her period, and is not engaged to another person any age...), but that is a Law that cant be enforced in the U.S.A. no seperation of Church and State,

Deu 22:28  If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29  Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

The Law of God is Sick.... and not for believers today, that Law is over....

Lee Damboise II

No your understanding is off........ God was not advocating it........ God was just not allowing men just to go around and take a woman as they pleased....... if he took her he had her for keeps and IMO that just might turn out to be a fate worse than death  :winkgrin:

Blessings

Doug

it still dose not minimise the fact that any man can have any child when ever he wants. My mother started her peroid at 8....

you can't say that was right with God even 6000 years ago or when ever, of course if it was ok then , God never changes, so it is God inspired today..IF

Hi Doug...if I'm not moving forward gaining understanding, when then is God going to zap me so I am perfect in every way!!Even Jesus grew in wisdom and stature.
Don't attribute everything to Satan,he gets enough glory already
blessings as we grow in the anointing :icon_king:

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 08:50:56 PM
it still dose not minimise the fact that any man can have any child when ever he wants. My mother started her peroid at 8....

you can't say that was right with God even 6000 years ago or when ever, of course if it was ok then , God never changes, so it is God inspired today..IF

You are missing the whole thing Lee......... by at least a mile and a half


Remember back in HS when you were trying get your girlfriend to take her clothes off......... well if you got lucky with her but unfortunately somehow got caught and the girl was no longer a virgin........

Well in that case...............This is the law that got a lot of guys invited to a wedding by a pee off'd dad of the former virgin who was holding a shotgun just in case the guy chickened out and did not mary her.......... then by God's law he could whack the sucker and I am not just talking about a bobbit trim job either if you get my message.

Now read it again but now with being set free from the lie that you were taught !!!!!!!!!


Deu 22:28  If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; [/size]
Deu 22:29  Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.  


Now who told you that lie Lee ?......... did somebody teach you that or more likely maybe some voice in the back of your mind said ..........

"See Lee, God' Laws are terrible but you can be better than that.

Now three guess's Lee whose voice that was........... hint:::::::: the name starts with an S

Blessings

Doug

Quote from: onlytruth on January 23, 2010, 09:14:42 PM
Hi Doug...if I'm not moving forward gaining understanding, when then is God going to zap me so I am perfect in every way!!Even Jesus grew in wisdom and stature.
Don't attribute everything to Satan,he gets enough glory already
blessings as we grow in the anointing :icon_king:

Hmmmm

Of course we are growing and going forward and what ever words of mine that might have caused you to think that I did not feel that way, I will just say that I am sorry for them if that will work..............

However if you have read much of what I have posted I quite often refer to the law of the seed that is Christ in us that is to be nourished into a full grown fruit baring tree........ and that means you, me, and everyone else here baptized by the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus

The only point I have intended to make with you is the foolishness associated with deliverance ministries........ at least with every one of them that I have seen.......

Hope that clears up any misunderstandings

Blessings

Doug

PS. Amen on Satan getting enough glory already........... PRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS MERCYS ARE AWESOME

Quote from: Cardinal on January 23, 2010, 07:12:13 PM
:cloud9: I may not be understanding you right on this Doug, so if I am excuse me for asking, but are you confusing deliverance with the "casting out of Satan himself thus making one perfect", by your beliefs on this?

Deliverance is not casting out Satan, but more like casting out his "offspring" or fruit of him that were formed from the union of him with the soul of men, such as lust, hate, greed, bitterness, jealousy, ect.

And as I said before the LORD instructs as to what is there, and IF it is to be removed at that point in time. Discernment MUST bow the knee to His perfect will, else the last state of that person is worse than before. Just because something is discerned, does NOT mean He wants it removed at that moment in time, because they may not be strong enough in Him to withstand the onslaught of the enemy trying to get back in.

As an example of this and how I learned the principle, once I was praying for an elder in a church. It was about an hour of the Lord pinpointing things to remove, and included an instantaneous healing of the man in one area.

When I got to the end, the Lord showed me a spirit of nicotine in the man's lungs (sorry smokers). Now I personally did not know the man, had no idea if he smoked or not. But just as I was going to open my mouth to command it out, the Lord spoke, "NO!" I was startled, because up to that point He had never shown me anything He DIDN'T want removed in the next 15 seconds.

So I asked Him why??? He said, "Tell him I have delivered him of this twice already, and twice he has taken it back. Tell him this time, he'll have to pray and fast to be delivered of it." (Being shown something like this is the gift of word of knowledge, for those of you who have never seen it in operation).

So I told the man, and he said that was true, adding, "Did He tell you how long I have to fast?"

So the point is, it's a PROCESS that continues until the 3rd day of perfection, as He said to Herod. We decrease, so that He can increase in us. Blessings....

God will allow someone else that is strong in the Lord to pray for you
concerning things like "smoking" for a time or two, but I sure bear
witness with Cardinal here concerning the man that wanted "her" to
do it, AGAIN.

Grow up! the Lord wants the Man to do it himself. 

This is exactly "how" the enemy comes to "wear out the saints of
the Most High."  Always looks for those committed Christians to
"do it for him."

People, please consider, the Strong NEED you too, please don't wear
them out!!!

Quote from: Lee Damboise on January 23, 2010, 07:10:49 PM
Okay Doug, the Law says I can rape a child and pay the father 340 U.S. Dollars and that child is my wife for ever( any child that started her period, and is not engaged to another person any age...), but that is a Law that cant be enforced in the U.S.A. no seperation of Church and State,

Deu 22:28  If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29  Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

The Law of God is Sick.... and not for believers today, that Law is over....

Lee Damboise II

As was pointed out by livelystone (Doug,) God isn't advocating a male doing this; rather, it is the penalty for doing it.  If he can't afford the redemption price it will be raised by his being sold into servitude.  That will limit his activity greatly.  If he caused her pain or damaged her other laws cover the appropriate punishments.  Even today the victims of crimes are not repaid by the perpetrator 4 or 7 fold as it was with theft.

What is also to be taken into consideration is this is but one piece of a whole system for a nation that has no jails.  It also has no regular police force or standing army.  The Levites who stand watch in the temple are the closest thing to such.  If a crime is committed it is the relatives within a more tribal society, them and the neighbors who enforce the sanctions of the law.

If parents and the priests don't teach the law, then the people's value's change and the intention of God's law can't be met.  This is what has in some ways happened to most of us.  We tend to judge God's law-word by what values we acquired in a post-Christian and pagan culture.  Some meditation on what is written rather than snap judgments against it would prove very rewarding.  One thing you partially recognized is a much earlier age for marriage than is common in today's western world.  The new way here is fornication for a number of years, settling in together without marriage that may come later, and, instead of keeping several wives, they are taken in succession after destructive divorces.  Dt 22:28-29 also sees rape differently than what has developed in our laws and their application in fairly recent history, particularly the last 50 or so years, that consider it more a matter of violence than sexuality.

It should be brought out that these laws of Moses are in the context of the Code of Hamarabi which was already in force among the nations of 3 to 4 thousand years ago.  The Mosaic laws were also bare bones upon which was build up a history of case law with commentary from Judicial decisions by Priests and the elders in the gates.  In Jesus day traditions were already making the law of God of no effect.  He warned about the teachings of the rabbis which since those days have produced another Judaism than that Jesus reformed to be in accord again with the original law.  As He pointed out, those who would be Moses' disciples would accept and believe in Him.   Those who are children of Abraham are of the faith of Abraham when he was as yet uncircumcised.