I spent a lot of time last year with my mental health being pummeled because of an addiction - to debating Christians and Athiests about UR. These are some points that I discovered that were validated by many non-believers as reasons they believed that if anything was true, it was UR:
1. DECEPTION-
We've heard many times the fundamentalist believers saying things like "those deceived by the devil will go to hell." Or "the devil is the father of nonbelievers". Basically the idea that nonbelievers are being deceived by the devil and because of this, they will go to hell.
Here's my issue with this: how do you not be deceived? For example, I followed a pastor for about a year and a half, believing that he was a Christian pastor. His entire congregation believed he was a Christian pastor. His congregation believed he was married to one woman and his child was the product of that marriage. It wasn't until he was arrested and charged for murdering one of his two wives that it came to light that he was not who he claimed to be.
Is it the congregation's fault that they were deceived? If God allows the devil to deceive, why are his creation punished for that?
2. GODS CREATION
God created everything. EVERYTHING. Why would he bother creating something for it to be tortured for eternity? Especially if we know that God's character is rooted in love. If God is love, he would create out of love and punish out of love and reconcile out of love. This doesn't have to have anything to do with scripture either: this is a basic human emotion. Many non-religous people I've engaged in conversation have agreed that even they couldn't do something remotely similar to torturing the ones they love.
3. THE FATHER?
The Bible describes God as a father, but there's another verse that describes the devil as a father too. If God is the father of believers while the devil is the father of nonbelievers, shouldn't non believers be expected to look to the devil to save them from God? My friend's father doesn't have authority to punish me, therefore if he did try to punish me, I should look to my father to rescue me right?
The only way out of this is to realize that God is the father of all, regardless of their level of belief. If the devil has any amount of control in the end, this would make God not all powerful, which we know isn't true!
4. LEVEL OF BELIEF
Some people believe more than others. Some people don't believe at all. Some people believe in other religions. Some people need solid proof, others have strong faith without proof. Have you ever seen that billboard of the animals that says "Where do you draw the line?" (Asking about the line between pet and food) Where do you draw the line of belief? If I believe .000001% less than you, is that the cutoff? Is that how a loving God operates?
I have since stopped with the debating because it was so mentally taxing, but I've been wanting to share these viewpoints with you all. UR has reached a few of my non believing friends and while it hasn't converted them, ive noticed it has given them a different view of Christianity and they all are very impressed and surprised that we exist. They've all said that UR seems to be the best representation of what they understand Christianity is supposed to be like.
Any thoughts are appreciated. Also as a disclaimer, I know there is much biblical support for UR, but I think it's interesting to also look at the logic of it as well!
Amen! I loved your post! Thanks for writing it! I too wander around a bit sometimes in the 'debate' field.. I'm kind of a hit and run kind of operator. I do that because it IS very taxing! And often people want to really pin you down, like knock out fight! I just want to express what I think is a more logical view.. But people get angry when their view is challenged. So I do some hit and run, and I like simple question and answer sites.. I can just answer the question and move along.. I really think that works best! I'm not saying I avoid all dialog or conversation.. But I definitely try not to get bogged down in furious debate. Tho I suppose it has happened before, but I mean why wreck my own day! :laughing7: Stress. Not good for one's mood or
health..
I definitely agree with you about nonbelievers being much more open to the UR message. I've lately been thinking it's the UR gospel Jesus was specifically referring to when He said "and
this gospel will be preached throughout the world and then the end will come.." [i.e. not before. Has that happened? Apparently not?]
Wow, that must have been rather shocking.. about the 'pastor'..
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If God allows the devil to deceive, why are his creation punished for that?
Amen! :thumbsup:
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The only way out of this is to realize that God is the father of all, regardless of their level of belief. If the devil has any amount of control in the end, this would make God not all powerful, which we know isn't true!
Amen! :Peace2: "Almighty" means all mighty.. all powerful (I love logic. :gsmile: ) And God "is perfect" and to lose even one thing, let alone, person, would not be "perfect".
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Have you ever seen that billboard of the animals that says "Where do you draw the line?" (Asking about the line between pet and food)
:mshock: I haven't seen that.. One of my absolute favorite verses is Isaiah 11:7 -
The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.Quote
UR has reached a few of my non believing friends and while it hasn't converted them, ive noticed it has given them a different view of Christianity and they all are very impressed and surprised that we exist. They've all said that UR seems to be the best representation of what they understand Christianity is supposed to be like.
Over the years, I've seen a few friends (or family members) drift to the faith.. I like to think gentler, more friendly gospel seeds helped to encourage that.. That whole thing about hell - and I personally think His 'wrath' is merely results of ppl's doings both individually and collectively, which He lets run its course, otherwise why bother to endow us with thinking and reasoning ability? What I mean is how else would we learn? - but as those two things are too often portrayed.. sure can present God in a bad light.. False light of course.. It becomes more a caricature of the adversary.. But even it shall be subdued.. put under the feet of Jesus. :cloud9:
Nice post! I enjoyed it! :Peace2:
listen,Joseph is a fruitful branch that goes over the wall[of division-jews/gentiles,saint-sinners[the 3 measures of leaven/grace]
if iniquity abounds we can not let our love cool[HIS HASN'T]grace must abound more :2c: