A challenge to Gary Amirault

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I found this today online http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5812

Someone is challenging Gary Amirault about his view of hell.

I just wondered if someone here would set him straight on that issue if they are a member of the website i posted? 

I don't know enough about it yet (universal salvation) to refute it (although i believe it) , i just thought i should put this 'out there' for you lot if any of you are a member of that website and want to put him right.

[WhiteWings]

Eph. v:5. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drundards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."--I Cor. vi:9,10.
The popular rendering of these passages is, that those who commit these sins in this
life will never find heaven, unless they repent before they die; but that idea is not
expressed nor implied. The kingdom of God, of heaven, is a condition of purity, and
whoever is guilty of these sins shuts himself out from the enjoyment of the kingdom.
No Christian sect teaches this doctrine more earnestly than do Universalists. All
Christians teach that this language is not to be interpreted literally. All those thus
guilty; may, by repentance, enter the kingdom.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible%20Threatenings%20Explained.htm#17

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Eph. v:5. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drundards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."--I Cor. vi:9,10.
The popular rendering of these passages is, that those who commit these sins in this
life will never find heaven, unless they repent before they die; but that idea is not
expressed nor implied. The kingdom of God, of heaven, is a condition of purity, and
whoever is guilty of these sins shuts himself out from the enjoyment of the kingdom.
No Christian sect teaches this doctrine more earnestly than do Universalists. All
Christians teach that this language is not to be interpreted literally. All those thus
guilty; may, by repentance, enter the kingdom.

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible%20Threatenings%20Explained.htm#17

Whitewings, thank you, I 'kind of' know all that stuff, i have accepted universal salvation, i just wondered if perhaps anyone could set the man straight by going to his website?
I would myself, but i wouldnt be able to debate universal salvation very good yet.
It was just a thought.

[WhiteWings]

About the rest: Fire, eternal, hell, well that's just translation issues.

Revelation 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Mmm, people burning forever have no sorrow?

[WhiteWings]

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible%20Threatenings%20Explained.htm#17

Whitewings, thank you, I 'kind of' know all that stuff, i have accepted universal salvation, i just wondered if perhaps anyone could set the man straight by going to his website?
[/quote]
Misunderstood you then. Well posting an article link is enough perhaps?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible%20Threatenings%20Explained.htm#17

Whitewings, thank you, I 'kind of' know all that stuff, i have accepted universal salvation, i just wondered if perhaps anyone could set the man straight by going to his website?

Misunderstood you then. Well posting an article link is enough perhaps?
[/quote]

Ill edit it with just the link x

[claypot]

I found this today online http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5812

Someone is challenging Gary Amirault about his view of hell.

I just wondered if someone here would set him straight on that issue if they are a member of the website i posted?  
I don't know enough about it yet to refute it, i just thought i should put this 'out there' for you lot.

Here is what the man posted in biblocality.com in full (and so far there has been no answer to his questions).

I responded to a video promoting universalism by Gary Amierault at Tentmaker.org. In the event my comments are removed I posted my same response here also so that he may freely respond to them at any time in the future.

Paul said, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6.9-10)

They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.  lk16.22

It is true that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Every single one of us humans was unrighteous 'in Adam'. I would ask the person asking these questions if he was unrighteous at one point. He would say yes, I'm sure. I would ask how come he will inherit the Kingdom of God. He would say because now he is in Christ by the workings and grace of God. I would say Amen, open your eyes.

cp

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I found this today online http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5812

Someone is challenging Gary Amirault about his view of hell.

I just wondered if someone here would set him straight on that issue if they are a member of the website i posted?  
I don't know enough about it yet to refute it, i just thought i should put this 'out there' for you lot.

Here is what the man posted in biblocality.com in full (and so far there has been no answer to his questions).

I responded to a video promoting universalism by Gary Amierault at Tentmaker.org. In the event my comments are removed I posted my same response here also so that he may freely respond to them at any time in the future.

Paul said, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6.9-10)

They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.  lk16.22

It is true that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Every single one of us humans was unrighteous 'in Adam'. I would ask the person asking these questions if he was unrighteous at one point. He would say yes, I'm sure. I would ask how come he will inherit the Kingdom of God. He would say because now he is in Christ by the workings and grace of God. I would say Amen, open your eyes.

cp

Claypot, how do you interprate this>?  It makes no sense to me.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

[claypot]

I found this today online http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5812

Someone is challenging Gary Amirault about his view of hell.

I just wondered if someone here would set him straight on that issue if they are a member of the website i posted? 
I don't know enough about it yet to refute it, i just thought i should put this 'out there' for you lot.

Here is what the man posted in biblocality.com in full (and so far there has been no answer to his questions).

I responded to a video promoting universalism by Gary Amierault at Tentmaker.org. In the event my comments are removed I posted my same response here also so that he may freely respond to them at any time in the future.

Paul said, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6.9-10)

They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.  lk16.22

It is true that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Every single one of us humans was unrighteous 'in Adam'. I would ask the person asking these questions if he was unrighteous at one point. He would say yes, I'm sure. I would ask how come he will inherit the Kingdom of God. He would say because now he is in Christ by the workings and grace of God. I would say Amen, open your eyes.

cp

Claypot, how do you interprate this>?  It makes no sense to me.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  1cor2.14

Do you think you are cursed with a 'natural' mind only?

Pray like crazy to get the mind of Christ, which is a spiritual mindset, and then these words will make sense to you, I guarantee it! I don't mean you will understand every word in Scripture right away but you will see that all of the words of the Good Book line up with two truths................

God wants something concerning the salvation of people.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  1tim2.4

God gets what He wants.

  And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?dan4.35

cp

[WhiteWings]

/quote]

How many explanations you want?
Seriously I think this parable must be the one discussed most (on this forum and the main website)
Little search will give you plenty of info.
If not ask.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I found this today online http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5812

Someone is challenging Gary Amirault about his view of hell.

I just wondered if someone here would set him straight on that issue if they are a member of the website i posted? 

I don't know enough about it yet (universal salvation) to refute it (although i believe it) , i just thought i should put this 'out there' for you lot if any of you are a member of that website and want to put him right.

First and foremost the persons whole perception is wrong.   The argument is the typical strawman concerning salvation.   People like this refuse to see that Gary Teaches universalism "through" Christ.   Where the argument the person brings implies otherwise.

So if someone replies to this person, if you try to just defend universalism then the point will get lost.

It needs to be reinforced that Gary teaches salvation through Christ and simple tell them that their argument will need to be revised in order to be valid.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Im reading the rich man and lazarus story like this...

The rich man, has died in his 'carnal' nature, therefore he is desiring still - 'things of the flesh' (water to cool his tounge).
The other man (Lazarus) is quite content where he is, because his body was more or less 'broken' anyway, and he had been born 'spiritually'.

Whether or not that means that the rich man never gets a chance to repent is beyond me, but from this parable, it doesnt look to me like he does....Or at least as long as his mind is still on 'earthly' things.

That's the best i can do with this parable im afraid, ive heard many versions of it, but basically the rich man (to me) got so rich and so involved with the 'carnal', he (now without a body but STILL with a 'carnal' brain (mindset) WANTED the things still of the flesh, but could not SATISFY his urges because he was dead (he no longer had a body).

Does that make sense to anyone?

[WhiteWings]

http://musicbysunset.com/Events.htm
http://www.theoldtimegospel.org/message2/parexp_index.html
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellArticles/RichManParable.htm
http://digg.com/educational/The_Parable_of_Lazarus_and_the_Rich_Man

[claypot]

Im reading the rich man and lazarus story like this...

The rich man, has died in his 'carnal' nature, therefore he is desiring still - 'things of the flesh' (water to cool his tounge).
The other man (Lazarus) is quite content where he is, because his body was more or less 'broken' anyway, and he had been born 'spiritually'.

Whether or not that means that the rich man never gets a chance to repent is beyond me, but from this parable, it doesnt look to me like he does....Or at least as long as his mind is still on 'earthly' things.

That's the best i can do with this parable im afraid, ive heard many versions of it, but basically the rich man (to me) got so rich and so involved with the 'carnal', he (now without a body but STILL with a 'carnal' brain (mindset) WANTED the things still of the flesh, but could not SATISFY his urges because he was dead (he no longer had a body).

Does that make sense to anyone?

Makes sense to a point to me, j, but can you possible entertain the idea that maybe the rich man and Lazuras are one person? In other words, to me, Laz and the rich man are Jesus' way of explaining how each human works and what is going on within. I know, in me, I clearly see both 'individuals' at work, the old man and the new.

I think you are very close with your comments, I liked them.

cp

[sven]

I will comment a few statements

Hell is where you go if you do not get to be with God. You send yourself there. Preaching Paul taught no Hell when the other books of the Bible do is looking for a loophole; but Paul, as we have seen in 1 Cor. 6 does teach Hell for without the kingdom of God is Hell.

that's a claim with no scriptural support, who says the opposite of the kingdom of God is hell?, it could also be death, or a lower level of bliss.

The mark of the cross is totally effective, but God would be evil if he coerced everyone (or anyone) into salvation.

but God isn't evil, if he coerces somebody to exist in neverending ceaseless misery? - I would not consider it worth to debate with anybody who contradicts himself so blatantly

[Seth]

The mark of the cross is totally effective, but God would be evil if he coerced everyone (or anyone) into salvation.

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Amen sven.

[WhiteWings]

The mark of the cross is totally effective, but God would be evil if he coerced everyone (or anyone) into salvation.

but God isn't evil, if he coerces somebody to exist in neverending ceaseless misery? - I would not consider it worth to debate with anybody who contradicts himself so blatantly

Plus what verse states that God would be evil if He let everybody into heaven?

[CHB]

Hi Hands,

Was able to get on the forum and saw this discussion. Thought I would give my ideas and an article that makes sense to me. Funny thing, as long as I don't log in I can get on the forum.  :mshock:

Lazarus and the Rich Man
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm

I have a little different understanding about (1Cor. 6:9-10).

The earthly kingdom of God was promised to the Israelites through the Covenants and promises of God. When it speaks about not entering the kingdom of God it is talking about the time of the Millennium, not about salvation. If the Millennium is still in the future, there will be some, that will not be allowed into the kingdom until they repent of all these things. If you read in the Old Testament you will find that God will set his hand a second time to redeem his people and that will be a time when God will teach the world the truth because none of us have all the truth now (John 6:45) (Jer. 31:34) (Hab. 2:14).

The Israelites and the religious leaders is who Jesus was referring to when he said "away with you I never knew you".


So, when you see where it mentions not being able to enter the kingdom of God it is referring to the earthly kingdom, the Millennium, not salvation. Eventually the whole earth will be in this kingdom. For God will judge the whole earth in righteousness. God will make it righteous (Isaiah 35:8-10)  (Isaiah 25)  (Isaiah 26:9).

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good to see you back, CHB. I'd have sent this as a PM, but since you said you still can't log in........Blessings.....

[rosered]

I am going to share this again here lol

  tell me what you think ...   CHB its along the same lines aas yours  :thumbsup:

I just got permissin from Chrissie to 
go ahead   and post her piece here , I have found it to be one of the most clear and   profound pieces ever  on the rich man an Lazarus  ...  just wonderful and was so blessed to  read  it   , sure hope others will be blessed by it too as I have been , things i have never considered before   become clear  in it ...   God bless her heart!    by Chrissie / angelmom

Lazarus and the rich man
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alot of people use the story of Lazarus and the ricj man to support their belief in hell and eternal torment.... but I don't see it that way... so I thought I would post the way I see this story/parable and see what others think.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man:

Some will say that this is not a parable, but that is how I see it. The parable does not start with Lazarus and the rich man; it is part of a much larger parable that starts in Luke Chapter 15:

(Luk 15:3) And He spoke this parable to them, saying:

There are several stories/parables that are part of this ONE larger parable and Lazarus and the rich man is only one of these stories/parables. There is the parable of the Lost Sheep starting at Luke 15:4; there is the parable of the Prodigal Son starting at Luke 15:11; there is the parable of the Steward starting at Luke 16:1; then we come to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man at Luke 16:19; following is the parable of the mustard seed.

So what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

What do we know about the rich man?

1. He was clothed in purple and fine linen
2. He has good things in his life
3. He died and was buried and he found himself in torment in 'hell'
4. He looks up from 'hell' and sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom
5. He calls Abraham "Father"
6. He begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his house to save his five brothers, lest they come unto the same torment

What do we know about Lazarus?

1. He was laid at the gate, full of sore, desiring to be fed crumbs from the rich man's table [like a dog]
2. The 'dogs' [his own kind] came to lick his sores
3. He has evil things in his life
4. He died and was carried into Abraham's bosom


Now considering the rich man...

Without going into the entire history of the OT and the lineage of Abraham, I am just going to jump to the punch and tell you that the rich man in this parable is Judah, but Judah, in this parable, represents the entire Jewish Nation (Israel/God's Chosen people).

The rich man was clothes in purple [symbolic of royalty; Judah carried the royal line of Israel (Gen 49:10)] and fine linen [symbolic of the priesthood; they were the protectors and scribes of the writings of Moses and the prophets]. He had good things in his life [being a wealthy nation, blessed by God, being His chosen people]. He called Abraham father [Judah was Abraham's great grandson; and all Israelites considered Abraham their 'father'] and he had five brothers. [Israel had 12 sons, one of which was Judah; however, Israel had 6 sons with wife Leah, Judah's mother – giving Judah 5 brothers.]

So who is Lazarus? Again, I will just jump to the punch and say that it is Eliezer of Demascus, who was a faithful servant to Abraham. Before Abraham received the seed of his promise he intended to make Eliezer his heir. Eliezer, I am sure, was aware of this but remained a faithful servant even after Abraham received his promise and it was clear that he would not inherit anything from Abraham. In this parable, Eliezer represents the Gentile Nations.


Back to the parable, now:

Lazarus [the Gentile Nations] lay at the gate, full of sores desiring to be fed by the crumbs from the table of the rich man [God's chosen people].

The dogs come to lick his sores [comfort him, take care of their own]. Why 'dogs'? Are the Gentiles ever referred to as 'dogs'?

Refer to Mark:

(Mar 7:24-30)
And He arose from there and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon. And He entered into a house and desired no one to know it. But He could not be hidden. For a woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of Him and came and fell at His feet. The woman was a Greek, a Syro-phoenician by race [a Gentile]. And she BEGGED Him that He would cast the demon out of her daughter. But Jesus said to her, LET THE CHILDREN [the Jews, whom He came to] FIRST BE FILLED. For it is not right to take the children's loaves [take the 'bread' from their table] and to throw it TO THE DOGS [the Gentiles, those not chosen]. And she answered and said to Him, Yes, Lord, yet THE DOGS UNDER THE TABLE eat of the children's CRUMBS. And He said to her, For this saying go [because of her faith and desire to have any crumbs that might fall from the table], the demon has gone out of your daughter. And when she had come to her house, she found the demon had gone out, and her daughter lay on the couch.

When Lazarus died he was carried into the bosom of Abraham, but when the rich man died he was buried and found himself looking up from 'hell' [hades, is the grave/unseen] in torment seeing Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham.

[This is not a literal story, it is a parable; it is not an actual account of what happened when someone dies. This is symbolic of spiritual life/death in Christ.]

(Luk 16:23) And in hell [hades] he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham AFAR OFF, and Lazarus in his bosom [where he thought he should be].

(Luk 16:24) And he cried and said, FATHER Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame [a reference to the Lake of Fire/God's judgment].

[What is he asking for? Not even a drink of water, but just a DROP of water from the finger of Lazarus.]

(Luk 16:25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things [the wealth and riches of God; bless of God; God's chosen], and likewise Lazarus evil things [not chosen of God]. But now he is comforted [having been brought into Abraham's bosom; into a close relationship with God] and you are tormented [afar off from the bosom of his father (God)].

(Luk 16:26) And besides all this, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us; so that they desiring to pass from here to you CANNOT, nor can they pass over to us from there. [This is not a permanent chasm; the chasm will be bridged by Christ and these 'broken branches' will be grafted back in.]

(Luk 16:27-28) And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

[He knows that his brothers, the Jewish nation, who are now cast off, will come into the same 'torment' when they see that THEY are no longer in Abraham's bosom, where they believe they are].

(Luk 16:29) Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them. [They have the Words of God through Moses and the prophets, let them hear THEM and listen so that they do not come under the same condemnation.]

(Luk 16:30) And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.

[Really, didn't someone already go to them from the dead? To bring them to repentance? And they heard Him not?]

(Luk 16:31) And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, EVEN THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.


ONE did rise from the dead!!

This story is not one of torment in hell for the wicked dead. It has nothing to do with the eternal fate of the dead. It is about the gospel and how it was brought to the Jews. The Jews rejected their Messiah and they were "cast off" and the Gentiles were "grafted in". The gospel has been given to the gentiles, who now find themselves in the place of God's chosen people, in the bosom of Abraham. So it is no longer the gentiles begging for crumbs [perhaps 'bread' crumbs?] from the table of the Jews; but the Jews begging for a drop of water [living water, no doubt] from the Gentiles (spiritually speaking).


It is not a story about the righteous and the wicked and heaven and hell and nary the twain shall meet.


(Rom 11:15-18)
For if their casting away is the reconciling OF THE WORLD, what is the reception except LIFE FROM THE DEAD? For if the firstfruit is holy, THE LUMP IS ALSO HOLY; and if the root is holy, ALSO THE BRANCHES.


And if some of the branches were broken off [God's original chosen people], and you [the nations], being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you.

More on why parables?

Christ spoke in parables to the masses and He did this for a reason. It is not given to all to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God.

(Mat 13:34-35)
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowds in parables, and HE DID NOT SPEAK TO THEM WITHOUT A PARABLE, so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

(Mar 4:10-12)
And when He was alone, they who were about Him, with the Twelve, asked Him concerning the parable. And He said to them, TO YOU IT IS GIVEN to know the mystery of the kingdom of God. But to those outside [those not being called/chosen], ALL these things are given in parables [why?] so that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Not everyone is being called to Christ and repentance; He makes it clear that if they truly UNDERSTOOD Him, they would repent and be forgiven. SO why would He not make Himself clear so that all could understand and be healed? Because just as the Jews were EXAMPLES for us... so are we EXAMPLES for the world.

(Luk 8:9-10)
And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be? And He said, TO YOU IT IS GIVEN to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. But to others I speak in parables, SO THAT seeing they might not see and hearing they might not understand.

[He clearly does not want all to see and all to hear and all to understand; NOT ALL are being called/chosen now.]

Blessings,
angelmom   aka Chrissie    .  :HeartThrob: love   rose

[CHB]

:cloud9: Good to see you back, CHB. I'd have sent this as a PM, but since you said you still can't log in........Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

It's the weirdest thing, as long as I don't log in I can get on here. as soon as I log on I am at the mercy of unknown spirits.  :laughing7: That is, I have to go through deleting cookies and defraging, the whole she-bang. I got tired of this and decided not to post but just read. I decided to post and wham!! it did it again. I had to go through the same ole routine all over again. :sigh:  :dontknow:

rosered,

I liked your post. It has to be mainly about Israel because Jesus said "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

CHB

CHB

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Good to see you back, CHB. I'd have sent this as a PM, but since you said you still can't log in........Blessings.....

Hi Cardinal,

It's the weirdest thing, as long as I don't log in I can get on here. as soon as I log on I am at the mercy of unknown spirits.  :laughing7: That is, I have to go through deleting cookies and defraging, the whole she-bang. I got tired of this and decided not to post but just read.

Cookies I can understand a bit. But defrag.????

Try this: http://anonymouse.org/  -> enter the tentmaker adress in the new box.
Are you using a shared IP? If two persons from one IP are on this forum it can cause problems. (Martin the board software possibly has settings for that)
Did you try to change the security settings of your browser? (add tentmaker to trusted sites)
Did you try another browser: http://www.google.com/chrome/index.html?hl=en&brand=CHMA&utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-row-bk&utm_medium=ha

[reFORMer]

I just love y'all and rejoice to read what you post!

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Rosered that was a great description, the only telling of that story ive ever heard that has ever really made sense to me. Thanks for that.

[rosered]

 

  Thanks CHB ,Card ,  ReFormer , and  JesusHands  all  :icon_flower:
Thanks for reading it , it blessed me too  It is from a   dear friend of mine  and I do believe it is excellent as well
  I can see how the Bread of Heaven being  Jesus  and the conversation /word  being  food and  water   as Life to the new spiritual man  , being now all are welcome  in the Kingdom of Heaven / God though Jesus Christ   
  He is our everything   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
the ladder  in Jacobs  vision   etc
  this connects many scriptures and many gospels to me  :HeartThrob:

   God love and bless you all rose ...