1000-Year Period

[Zero7]

What a blessing finding this forum. In 30 minutes of reading I've learned more about this 1000 year reign than I've learned in 30 years of trying to understand it taking it literally.

Now at the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson who needs sock puppets to have something explained to him by his daughter, can I ask a question?

What does scripture mean when it mentions the devil being loosed at the end of the 1000 year period to deceive people one last time?

I hope no one mentioned this in the thread already, there were a few parts I sped through

God Bless.

[jabcat]

What a blessing finding this forum. In 30 minutes of reading I've learned more about this 1000 year reign than I've learned in 30 years of trying to understand it taking it literally.

Now at the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson who needs sock puppets to have something explained to him by his daughter, can I ask a question?

What does scripture mean when it mentions the devil being loosed at the end of the 1000 year period to deceive people one last time?

I hope no one mentioned this in the thread already, there were a few parts I sped through

God Bless.

I'm glad you're blessed.  I'll share my sock puppets with you  :laughing7:, I've wondered the same thing.  Howevah...expect several different answers...some see it literal, some spiritual, some a mixture of both.  Maybe someone's explanation will be Spirit-verified to you and you'll know it as truth.  I'll watch...maybe I'll get it this time too  :winkgrin:.

[Nathan]

I'll throw a rock on the pond and see where the ripples lead . . .
I've taught on the book of Revelation from traditional and nontraditional perspectives . . I've chosen the "non". 

Traditionally, it is believed that there is a literal 1000 year period of time when believers will experience physical, emotional, and spiritual bliss . . .only to have the devil, who's been bound during that time, to be released again . . for a short time . . .God catches him . . .let's him go . .then catches him again because during that 1000 years, babies were born and even though there's no temptation, they need to be tested . . so . . Devil is released to prove their worth I guess . . .I'm not nearly as concerned about these particular details anymore because I beleive flesh profiteth nothing . . . to try to apply these things physically, just has no benefits for me.

Now . . .the spiritual (inward) approach, for me, is simply sharing not what I've learned, but what I see . . .it's impossible to teach revelation . . .revelation can be seen, but because it's "revealed" ony by the Father to our heart . .our spirit . .. our minds can only observe what is being revealed to our spirits.  What I "do" teach is patterns and keys that lead us into the spiritual principles . . .but you really can't teach something that only can come by way of experience. 

I can tell you "about" flying . . .I can tell you all of the technical aspects of flying (truthfully, I can't . . I know nothing about airplanes . . but for the sake of the point, pretend I can . . .)  I can tell you the purpose for each guage, lever and alarm in a cockpit . . .but until you "feel" it for yourself, until you "experience" flying, all these things I'm telling you are mere words.

It's the same with revelation . .not the book, but the act.  Hebrews states that in the last days, there will no longer be a need for teaching because the Holy Spirit will be the only one doing that "in" us.  Now, there are rogue warriors that carry that verse out of context and say they don't need to listen to another person, they can rely on the Spirit only.  Unfortunately it's those same individuals that become extremists in their quest for perfection.

So . .  having said all of that . . for me, the 1000 years is not a time, but a person.  It's connected to the Holy of Holies because it's dimensions are 10x10x10 . . .it's a realm of rest . . Jesus is the Sabbath . . we enter into the Sabbath . .again, it's not a measure of time . . .how often have you heard people say God doesn't live by our time?  But yet we try to then take his timeless light and make it fit our limited frame of time . . .all we've done is create division and confusion because it's as you say . . . .no one can explain how or why it is that the devil can be released "after" God has bound him up so we can party for 1000 years without temptation of any sort . . .

God doesn't live by our time, as far as I'm concerned, he measures by his Son.  Genesis 6 just before the flood . ..God said no longer is he going to "strive" (key word there) with "man" (and another) but that his days shall be 120 years.  Now you'd think following that proclamation that the documented lineages in Scripture would reflect this by showing men lived to be 120 years . . .but the only ONE that did that was Moses . . .and he represents law . . .so if it wasn't literal . . .it then must have been "spiritual".

Carnal man . . .the number is 6.  That's the number of man . . .666 is the number of carnal man in it's entirety . . completeness, the whole enchalada.  Jesus not only is the Sabbath . . .which is the 7th day . . .he is the Jubuliee . . .that is what comes after seven sevens of Sabbath years.  In other words . . .after 49 years, the 50th year is the year of Jubilee.  Got that so far?  Every 50 years is the year of Jubilee . . .Jesus "is" the Jubilee.

When God said he'll no longer strive with man . .it's not men . .it's the man in men . .it's carnality.  A works-based mind . . a mind of labor . . a mind of war .  .ministry works are still works.  This isn't to say it's not necessary, but it's saying there's a whole other realm beyond that . .it's not the end.  I remember being in tradtional church and there'd be people crying for more, for deeper things . .the churches answer is . . . put them in a ministry.  Rather than feed them the deep things, they put them in ministry, taking care of other adolescent Christians . . .and call that the deeper things.

At any rate . . God measures in dimensions of his Son . . .Jubilee is every 50 years.  God will no longer strive with man, but his days shall be 120 years . . .120 x 50 = 6000.  The reason why God won't strive with man anymore is because after 6,000 years, after 6 days, the seventh arives . . .the Sabbath day . . the day of rest.

What does this have to do with the devil being released for a short time?  Again . . .it's all spiritual . .the devil . .isn't the devil . .read specifically what it says . . it's more than just this one spiritual entity . . .

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

This goes all the way back to the garden . .the serpent which matured into the dragon which is both a traducer and an adversary . . .Scripture says your mind is at emnity with God . . .my mind is an adversary . . .it traduces truth . .it forces it through a filtering system of logic and reasoning . .and the results are adverse against the truth of God in me.

But we are enabled now to enter into that Sabbath NOW . . .that's the 1000 year reign . .and because we still have minds . . .we still have sin nature, we still have carnality in us . . .we go through "seasons" where we loose that nature . . .can you say since you've met Christ that you've never ever, ever again given in to your flesh on occasion?

Read through this guys . . . when you come into the completion of rest . . .when you enter into this kingdom of revelational truth, there is still a carnal nature at work in you . . but the difference now is, it has absolutely no power over you . . the only time it can manifest is when YOU release it . . .it comes in seasons . . .sometimes you turn away from it, sometimes you turn "to" it . . .and in the end, it's cast into the lake of fire . . .this is all pertaining to the CARNAL MIND of man. 

Man . . .my break is over . . .

But I hope this helped at least a little bit.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just time for a quick AMEN, Nathan...... :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

[Zero7]

Nathan, yes , it helps a lot. Thanks for taking the time to write that. Now I'll get my daughter to come in here and read it to me a second time. She does wonders with those sock puppets explaining the hard stuff.  :laughing7:

[claypot]

And why I see it much as you do Nathan is that I just can't believe this whole plan is a 'us and them' plan or a 'God and us' plan. The Plan is, period.

Also I see the Word as a living thing. It is alive and multifaceted. It is not a bunch of words on a page describing past and future events. It is a living entity that describes what life IS.

God is spirit, He created the physical, but He IS spirit. His home is spirit, His language is spirit.

Nathan, you have blown my mind with the 1000 years being The Divine Himself. I see it. I do. I have some serious dwelling to do and I'm excited as a, as a, as a...................no words can explain how excited I am to go do the dwelling! Thanks Brother.

cp

[legoman]

Wow, you guys are blowing me away.  Especially Willie's post and Nathan's stuff.

Not sure what to make of it yet.

As I understand what you are saying, the 1000 years are now - Satan is bound when we come into Christ, etc.  he may be "loosed for a little while" as the carnal nature rears its head.

What I'm still having trouble seeing is how does the GWT judgement fit in?
When do we give account of our lives?  Is that what we are doing right now as we live?
When are people "thrown into the lake of fire"?  I understand Willie believes we are in the lake of fire right now.

Here is the biggest stumbling block for me:
What about those who die who were not saved (in this life), don't they still need to go through more fire for correction?  So is there another lake of fire after this life (lake of fire)?  I can't imagine Hitler is ready for heaven yet.

Confused, but intrigued.

Legoman

[Nathan]

Usually I try not to respond too much to replies like these because as much as I do love knowing it lit someone up, I don't want to begin thinking "I'm" the one that did anything to make me worthy of the praise of others . . .all I'm doing is I'm sharing what I see . . .and thank you for the kind words . . but more importantly, I'm just as excited to see that it's spreading!!

The real reason why I'm responding here is because your replies are EXACTLY why I beleive the spiritual should be the pursuit of all . . . look at what the spiritual truth does to you, compared with just giving you either popular explanations, traditional beleifs, or just historical knowledge . . . it's only when revelation of what's said catches "in" you that really and truly causes you to benefit the most in your relationship with the Father.

I'll post this, but I'll also respond to Legoman's post afterward . . .

That's what I hunger for the most, not the definitions, the historical value, the moral applications . . not that those are bad, it's just it's only in the spirit that brings maturity, freedom, joy . . .excitement . . .it's a rapturing experience.  Knowledge is amusing, but revelation is transforming.

I like how you put this cp . . God IS spirit . .he created the natural, but he IS spiritual, the invisble, the spiritual IS his home . . . you remind me of what he said to Moses . . "Who should I say sent me?  You tell them I AM sent you"  In the spirit God IS the I AM.  The things he created in this earth are what he uses to reveal this truth . . .the natural things are his alphabet.  The experiences we read about and have for ourselves are his language of love to, for, and through us.  There is no end to these things, once the gates of revelation open up in you . . .the flood begins . . .you fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah and Habbakuk . . .

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Your earth shall be filled with his knowledge . .why?  Because you studied really hard?  Because you taught Scriptures to others?  No, because "this" day we're in is the Sabbath . . .rest brings healing to the body . . .refreshing, rejuvenation . . .in rest, our eyes can see things our mind can see things that we couldn't see before in labor because truth doesn't come through labor, it comes through resting in our relationship with the Father.

[lsmann2]

Why should we of the nations reign with Christ on the earth during the 1000 year reign when "our realm is inherrent in the heavens"

Phi 3:20 "For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,"

And we will have celestial bodies, not bodies fitted to remain on the earth.

We will actually be closer to Christ in spirit than the 12 will be in flesh on the earth.

Ahh-ha! You must have taken Paul's advice to Timothy! :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

Wow, you guys are blowing me away.  Especially Willie's post and Nathan's stuff.

Not sure what to make of it yet.

As I understand what you are saying, the 1000 years are now - Satan is bound when we come into Christ, etc.  he may be "loosed for a little while" as the carnal nature rears its head.

What I'm still having trouble seeing is how does the GWT judgement fit in?
When do we give account of our lives?  Is that what we are doing right now as we live?
When are people "thrown into the lake of fire"?  I understand Willie believes we are in the lake of fire right now.

Here is the biggest stumbling block for me:
What about those who die who were not saved (in this life), don't they still need to go through more fire for correction?  So is there another lake of fire after this life (lake of fire)?  I can't imagine Hitler is ready for heaven yet.

Confused, but intrigued.

Legoman

I have 10 minutes left of the break . . . see what I can throw out there in that time . .
For me the Great WHITE throne . . .in us we all have a throne . . .the church has embedded in us a vision that this great white throne of judgment is again, all about destruction and death . . .it's not . . .if you come to Christ, he takes the judgment you deserved because of the sin in you . . .he takes that upon himself and pays for your salvation with his blood . . .if that's really true, then we do we want to hold ourselves to believe there is yet another judgment coming to us?

2 Thessalonians talks about the abomination of desolation STANDING in the temple . . .that is the carnal throne . . .it's there because people let it be there . . .but the Judgment is WHITE . . .it's to purify the carnalty FROM man . . .I've mentioned this before . . but judgment, if you want to see it as destructive . . .fine, but understand it's not destroying men . . .it's destroying MAN in men.  It's a GOOD thing that's happening in us.

The devil is cast in to the lake of fire as well . . . I beleive those who died in their carnality without letting Christ manifest in them, they do go through a spiritual lake of fire where WHITE judgment is applied to their darkness of hearts . . .when the darkness is removed . . there's no rebellion, no vengence, no bitterness . .there's only joy and humility . .they'll WANT to bend their knee and declare Christ as Lord.  The LOF is not a place of "correction" as much as it is a place of "purification".  The laver washed, it cleansed, the blood stained hands of the priests from their labor of animal/sin sacrifices . .the lake of fire does the same thing  . .both are places of preparation for entering into something deeper . . .

Your mind can't imagine Hitler's transformation because the same verse that says your mind is at emnity . .also says that it doesn't have the capaicity even, to understand the spiritual nature of God.  THATS why it's ALL based on FAITH and not knowledge . . .faith is believing in what you can't see . .when you do . . .you can then see.

ten minutes are up.  . . sigh . . .

[legoman]

I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brother N... :hithere:

Wow, you guys are blowing me away.  Especially Willie's post and Nathan's stuff.

Not sure what to make of it yet.

As I understand what you are saying, the 1000 years are now - Satan is bound when we come into Christ, etc.  he may be "loosed for a little while" as the carnal nature rears its head.

What I'm still having trouble seeing is how does the GWT judgement fit in?
When do we give account of our lives?  Is that what we are doing right now as we live?
When are people "thrown into the lake of fire"?  I understand Willie believes we are in the lake of fire right now.

Here is the biggest stumbling block for me:
What about those who die who were not saved (in this life), don't they still need to go through more fire for correction?  So is there another lake of fire after this life (lake of fire)?  I can't imagine Hitler is ready for heaven yet.

Confused, but intrigued.

Legoman

I have 10 minutes left of the break . . . see what I can throw out there in that time . .
For me the Great WHITE throne . . .in us we all have a throne . . .the church has embedded in us a vision that this great white throne of judgment is again, all about destruction and death . . .it's not . . .if you come to Christ, he takes the judgment you deserved because of the sin in you . . .he takes that upon himself and pays for your salvation with his blood . . .if that's really true, then we do we want to hold ourselves to believe there is yet another judgment coming to us?

2 Thessalonians talks about the abomination of desolation STANDING in the temple . . .that is the carnal throne . . .it's there because people let it be there . . .but the Judgment is WHITE . . .it's to purify the carnalty FROM man . . .I've mentioned this before . . but judgment, if you want to see it as destructive . . .fine, but understand it's not destroying men . . .it's destroying MAN in men.  It's a GOOD thing that's happening in us.

The devil is cast in to the lake of fire as well . . . I beleive those who died in their carnality without letting Christ manifest in them, they do go through a spiritual lake of fire where WHITE judgment is applied to their darkness of hearts . . .when the darkness is removed . . there's no rebellion, no vengence, no bitterness . .there's only joy and humility . .they'll WANT to bend their knee and declare Christ as Lord.  The LOF is not a place of "correction" as much as it is a place of "purification".  The laver washed, it cleansed, the blood stained hands of the priests from their labor of animal/sin sacrifices . .the lake of fire does the same thing  . .both are places of preparation for entering into something deeper . . .

Your mind can't imagine Hitler's transformation because the same verse that says your mind is at emnity . .also says that it doesn't have the capaicity even, to understand the spiritual nature of God.  THATS why it's ALL based on FAITH and not knowledge . . .faith is believing in what you can't see . .when you do . . .you can then see.

ten minutes are up.  . . sigh . . .

Boy brother... you writings herein, are just one completely submitted TOOL in the Hand of the Almighty!   :bgdance:

Thanks for your posts in this thread... so enLIGHTening...  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Nathan]

I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

All I can tell you is, it's after he died . . .it could be over with by now . . .it could have been over with in seconds according again . . to "our" time . . but remember, when your spirit leaves this body of flesh, it leaves the essence of time as well . . .so, not even my mind can see the whens of the spirit.  It's kind of like Jesus said . . . there are some things that are just not for us to know . . I know that's a cop out . .but truth be told . . . how would knowing the when after death, things happen, benefit my relationship with Christ in the Now?

You may have to reread that sentence a couple times . . . I had to and I'm the one writing it.

For me right now, measuring spiritual time is like measuring the speed of dark . . . I'm sure there's probably a way . . .but then what?

[legoman]

I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

All I can tell you is, it's after he died . . .it could be over with by now . . .it could have been over with in seconds according again . . to "our" time . . but remember, when your spirit leaves this body of flesh, it leaves the essence of time as well . . .so, not even my mind can see the whens of the spirit.  It's kind of like Jesus said . . . there are some things that are just not for us to know . . I know that's a cop out . .but truth be told . . . how would knowing the when after death, things happen, benefit my relationship with Christ in the Now?

You may have to reread that sentence a couple times . . . I had to and I'm the one writing it.

For me right now, measuring spiritual time is like measuring the speed of dark . . . I'm sure there's probably a way . . .but then what?

Ok I see what you are saying.  I can't follow it though without having the "essence of time" still exist.  For example when we are spiritually resurrected, I think there will still be time (maybe not as we know it now). 

This is why I think this.

We know eventually EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess.  Again I ask: WHEN does this happen, if not after Christ has come, after the resurrection?  There must be an "essence of time" for this to happen in.

I can buy the argument this has already happened for the "elect" - they have already "bowed and confessed" spiritually.  But the non-elect won't do that until they are converted... later (after their death/resurrection) presumably.

This is why I feel there must be some judgment/acknowledgement to come after the end of this age, at the very least so everyone will bow and confess.  Just my current thoughts as it doesn't seem to fit logically otherwise if its all done after this life and no further judgment required.

Maybe Willie can further comment on this. 

Another question: do you think the resurrection has already happened for believers?  ie. they are already "spiritually" resurrected and have a "spiritual" body?  If so, I don't feel like I've been resurrected, and we definitely aren't immortal yet..... are we?

Peace...

[Nathan]

I agree with you about Willie . . . I'll leave that one alone and see where the river in him takes us with it.

As to the other .. .yes and no . . .  When Scripture talks about Jesus having to mature, learn, grow . . .that's a very telling thing . .. I think I also mentioned this somewhere on the forum before as well . . .but for me, when there is the birthing of a new believer, when someone asks Christ into their heart . . .there is an IMMEDIATE transformation in them that is quite visible . . .crying, laughing . . .what have you . . but internally, it's really a realignment happening . . .the spirit in us is resurrected from beneath the mind of us, so in that sense, yes there is a resurrection in us spiritually . . .however . . . our mind and flesh are not quite so quick to join in that transformation . . .it took Jesus 30 years of preparation to deliver the gospel to us . . . it takes our minds and bodies much longer to reach any form of resurrectionness . .. .(just made that one up!)

But when ALL things are complete, we will experience this resurrection on every level . .our mind will be wholly transformed . . the switch from a crown of thorns to a crown of gold, the curse of the mind will no longer exist.  Our bodies will be transformed . . .we will leave these earthy tabernacles for spiritual ones, just as Paul says.

Theres one other thing . . .I think we need to also remember that it's not just us that's being transformed into the spirit . . .this earth is going to have the same transformantion . . .it'll still be an earth . .but it'll be in another form . . .I know . .tough to understand . . .but in faith, that's how I understand it to be.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi my dear brothers Legoman & Nathan... :hithere:

Brother Nathan...


Like you my dear brother, I deserve nor seek, "kudos" for anything I say if there is benefit for another... only the Lord is to praised if benefit is given in understanding! 

Praise :bowing: YHVH and His CHRIST

If anything, the imperfection (which is ME) that yet lies within my views is that which I must be "credited" for!  :mblush:

I always seek GOD to use and utilize my offerings... and at the same time, cause the imperfections to be passed-over by observers...


Brother Legoman...


In the INSTANT of the DEATH (of the heart) is the "knee" bowed, and "tongue" confessed... When CHRIST is revealed, the DARKNESS which pridefully stood and selfishly acted right before the EYES of YHVH, shall flee at the BRIGHTNESS of the LIGHT of His COMING...

For some (as I see it), it comes while alive in the FLESH and is active as life in the flesh is lived... but in most (as I see it), it arrives in the instant of DEATH of both the body and the soul...

I'm mostly following you Nathan.  Here is my question:

WHEN is Hitler purified?  WHEN is the non-elect purified?

If this life is the lake of fire, it seems it did not complete the purification process for everyone - only the elect (those who believe and come to Christ).  Unless we conceed the non-elect are purified in their own lake of fire after death.  Then we are back to the more "traditional" UR model.

Peace...

As I see it, ...here is My  :2c:

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST is NOT according to TIME or CHRONOLOGY... JESUS, the Eternal  WORD of GOD, does not require TIME in order to "BE"...

Concerning Hitler... He is part (as are we ALL) of that which was DECLARED... (the "end from the beginning") Isaiah 46:10-13... and the REVELATION of CHRIST, ..."in" Hitler, does not mark TIME, it marks ETERNITY...

So your question as to "when" will Hitler "be" purified, is not according to TIME, it is according to REVELATION of the ETERNAL ...IN him... which does not require "time"...

You and I did not traverse the LIFE of Hitler, ...only Hitler and GOD traversed his lifetime, together...

That DEATH occurs in each of us, marks the END of each journey IN TIME... and within each individual journey does TIME manifest our "individual portions" of the DECLARATION of GOD -- "the end DECLARED, from the beginning"...

Which reveals that within it, we as individuals... each receive from the IMPARTIAL God and Savior... that which was intended for each... and that part of which was/is our participation in the "KNOWLEDGE", the JUDGMENT and Lake of FIRE (suffering, death, grave), as well as the REVELATION of our Savior, and the INDIVIDUAL FACT that He has "taken AWAY" the SIN in each of us...

CHRIST "took away" the sin of the WORLD... The "World" exists in various portions of TIME... and in TIME, is the SIN of each portion of the "WORLD" taken AWAY by CHRIST...

NO man comes to his death, and then reports the doings of GOD in the instant of his/her DEATH... Nor is any able to REPORT of another, the doings of GOD in the instant of the DEATH of another...

The change of MAN from mortal to immortal comes in the TWINKLING of an EYE... or in an INSTANT... the LAST "instant" for each of us...  Marks the "when" that we each find as our LAST... In that LAST moment of TIME in our individual experiences, does our "MORTALITY" ...DIE with us... :shrug:

The JUDGMENT is NOW as CHRIST said it:  John 12:31 -- the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, ...is ...NOW...

NOT after TIME is concluded, ...IN its CONCLUSION...  the LAST DAY for each is a different DAY in TIME.  Each of us experience our LAST DAY... Much as we each experienced our birth on our FIRST DAY...

We are EACH were created on our "FIRST DAY"... and then live our lives BEFORE the JUDGING EYE of YHVH and His WORD, in the "SIX" following (which contain the Creation - sun, moon, animals, food, etc.), and enter into REST (at the DEATH or CONCLUSION of those "six days") on the SEVENTH...  

In that REST at the "TWINKLING of an EYE" (temporal time which was used by God to teach each of His Children the KNOWLEDGE) is found exposed before ETERNITY which is the SABBATH or "PERFECTION - COMPLETION" of each...  

We must (or should) ALWAYS keep in mind, that GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...

ADAM, nor NOAH, nor PAUL, nor PETER, nor YOU nor I, ...shall "spend" even ONE MOMENT of TIME in DEATH... only those LIVING shall mark "TIME" concerning us... we SHALL NOT.

We are DISASSOCIATED with TIME in the INSTANT of our DEATH.  Only those LIVING IN TIME (and of course, Almighty GOD), experience TIME and its "doings"... Ecc 3

The DEAD (no longer LIVING in TIME) "know NOT" anything... Ecc 9:5


...willieH  :cloud9:

[legoman]

Awesome Willie!  I will be contemplating this for many days...

Peace.

[claypot]

I think the big problem for people is the punishing of 'bad guys'. I mean should we just do nasty stuff up until we die and then God will fix us? Even to just be lazy and we will be fixed up later?

I am in a hurry here, thus my crude wording here, and will come back to this but I am hoping for some thoughts from all about this.

In other words what kind of pain and misery and outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth are experienced by people who do not 'know' the Lord. I understand the pain and misery here and now but what about those who depart this life on a wave of doing evil? Do they get away with their evil ways and if not, how are they dealt with?

I do have some thoughts on this and I know no one 'gets away' with anything but if you all could give some more detailed thoughts I would appreciate it.

Again, I think this is the big hang up for most people. They want to know others will be punished for not accepting Jesus in this life. If not eternal torment then what?

cp

[Nathan]

Since entering into the kingdom perspectives, seeing the truth being far removed from the teachings of men, it's caused me to find a different way to study Scripture.  Instead of taking what I read and forming a belief from the word I've read . . .I now take what I "see" and then "from" there, I reread the Scriptures that appear to say things differently and what I've learned by doing this is . . . the truth is very much in the Word . . it's just not always in the translations.

Jesus really messed people up when he said "it is written, that you must do this . . . but I say . . . ."  When you read passages like an eye for an eye . . ."it is written that you have the right to remove the eye of another who caused you to lose your eye . . .be it by accident or not . . .BUT I SAY turn the other cheek . . . ." 

My point is, the message Jesus brought was the opposite of what they were taught.  And it's much the same way here . . many things we really have given the benefit of the doubt that it's saying what we're taught it was saying . . but then the Father begins revealing the nature of his Son in us and we're beginning to see that the things we were taught and swallowed, were not things God originally established.  So, I "know" hell isn't what I thought, so if that is true, then what really is this "passage" saying?  Start with what I know by experience, Jesus wasn't warning unbelievers about hell . . . "if" that's true, then what do passages referring to that place of gnashing of teeth really mean then?

All of that was said to say this . . .the "gnashing of teeth" place . . .it's not the hell we're taught that it is.  Jesus isn't out there teaching a message of doom and gloom . . he never did, never will.  He wasn't warning the unbeleivers of their eternal damnation.  The gnashing of teeth isn't aimed at unbelievers, it's aimed at the religious.  And it's not about going to hell . . .

Matthew 13 . . parable after parable . . .
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We're still stuck in this mindset that men are being cast into the lake of fire . . .it's not men . . .it's "man" in men . . . everything is spiritual . . take it inward . . .don't try applying spiritual truth to masses of people.  Spiritual truth is inward truth . . it only applies to the individual, not to the general public.  That's a key to Scripture the church can't seem to embrace.  We want to conform everybody to think the same, act the same, live the same . . .but that's not how we were created, we're not meant to be cookie-cutter Christians . . .or denominationally branded.  We are individuals, our relationship is "personal".  So should be the application of Scripture . . .

The gnashing of teeth is for me, a mind set . . .when truth comes, it comes without logic.  It can't be explained.  But the mind is wired to respond after reasoning is applied.  When there is no reasoning, the mind becomes distraught . .  . people can't stand the thought of chaos.  They can't stand the idea of being out of control . .but that's just what a humble heart does, it gives control over to the spirit and in the spirit, you become like the wind, there's no logic or reason, you can't predict from where it comes, to where it goes.  And best of all, if you can't tell when it's coming or when it's going, you can't contain it, control it, govern it . .the best you can do is set your sails according to it . . which the wind changes . . you can't change it back, all you can do is readjust your sails according to it.

I got ahead of myself there . .because those that reject the freedom of the spirit, are the ones that have the greatest reaction against others that do.  It creates a "gnashing" . .the gnashing of teeth is simply an outward manifestation of an inward clash.  It's not a place, it's a state of mind . . . Scripture must interpret Scripture . . .

Psalm 35:16
With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

Acts 7:54
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

This incident in Acts . . .it was the state of mind these people were in just before they stoned Stephen.  The place of gnashing of teeth is not hell . . .it's merely a state of one's mind that rejects the kingdom . . .the kingdom is not heaven, it's not a place either . .but like gnashing of teeth, it also is a state of mind.  The things I've been sharing here are coming from a transformed mind . . . I can't explain all I see . . .I can't understand all I see.  But I've learned to not let my mind do the reasoning anymore.  I no longer care if things make sense or not . . .because I know that God speaks through seeds . . .initially it looks like nothing, but leave it in me for a while and eventually, the nothing grows into something . . and the transformation continues.

I know that's not answering the issue directly . . . but I think if we're going to go into the kingdom, we should address the traditional assumptions as they surface . . .release them to the Father as we go . . .that's the only reason why differences pop up . . so they can be released to the Father. 

Now, more on topic . . . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

[Livelystone]

What a blessing finding this forum. In 30 minutes of reading I've learned more about this 1000 year reign than I've learned in 30 years of trying to understand it taking it literally.

Now at the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson who needs sock puppets to have something explained to him by his daughter, can I ask a question?

What does scripture mean when it mentions the devil being loosed at the end of the 1000 year period to deceive people one last time?

I hope no one mentioned this in the thread already, there were a few parts I sped through

God Bless.

Hello Zero7........... pleased to make your acquaintance

When the Holy Spirit comes into a heart that was prepared as "good ground" Satan was bound "that day" that is a term that also appears as "one thousand years"

However in time we sin and that allowed Satan to be set free.

Now he roams in the dry places that is the dust and bottomless pitt that our flesh is made of where he is always seeking to return to the heart to gain control of the individual........ we see this in Revelations through constant battles between the north and the south that are mere battles between the mind, heart and flesh. Sometimes there are alliances made as Satan did through Eve through daughters becoming married to princes such as when the sons of God married the daughters of men way back in Genesis and so forth as seen throughout the OT but the ultimate desire of Satan is to return sit on the temple within us.

When we see this happening through are conscious being sprinkled with His Blood that convicts us of sin we then approach God the Father through the Blood of the Son that will both wash our sins away making the heart a suitable place for the Holy Spirit to abide in and through this same Blood is the Life/Spirit of Jesus that will destroy the presence of Satan in our minds because light displaces darkness.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Sometimes it takes awhile for us to view the words of the Bible as more than just a corporate scene involving the earth and the universe to looking with in ourselves to where the Kingdom of Heaven really is and where the battles of the heavens are fought.

Blessings

Doug

[lsmann2]

mygrandmotherplaysdominoesbetterthanyourgrandmotherdoes :dontknow:

[claypot]

Since entering into the kingdom perspectives, seeing the truth being far removed from the teachings of men, it's caused me to find a different way to study Scripture.  Instead of taking what I read and forming a belief from the word I've read . . .I now take what I "see" and then "from" there, I reread the Scriptures that appear to say things differently and what I've learned by doing this is . . . the truth is very much in the Word . . it's just not always in the translations.

Jesus really messed people up when he said "it is written, that you must do this . . . but I say . . . ."  When you read passages like an eye for an eye . . ."it is written that you have the right to remove the eye of another who caused you to lose your eye . . .be it by accident or not . . .BUT I SAY turn the other cheek . . . ." 

My point is, the message Jesus brought was the opposite of what they were taught.  And it's much the same way here . . many things we really have given the benefit of the doubt that it's saying what we're taught it was saying . . but then the Father begins revealing the nature of his Son in us and we're beginning to see that the things we were taught and swallowed, were not things God originally established.  So, I "know" hell isn't what I thought, so if that is true, then what really is this "passage" saying?  Start with what I know by experience, Jesus wasn't warning unbelievers about hell . . . "if" that's true, then what do passages referring to that place of gnashing of teeth really mean then?

All of that was said to say this . . .the "gnashing of teeth" place . . .it's not the hell we're taught that it is.  Jesus isn't out there teaching a message of doom and gloom . . he never did, never will.  He wasn't warning the unbeleivers of their eternal damnation.  The gnashing of teeth isn't aimed at unbelievers, it's aimed at the religious.  And it's not about going to hell . . .

Matthew 13 . . parable after parable . . .
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

We're still stuck in this mindset that men are being cast into the lake of fire . . .it's not men . . .it's "man" in men . . . everything is spiritual . . take it inward . . .don't try applying spiritual truth to masses of people.  Spiritual truth is inward truth . . it only applies to the individual, not to the general public.  That's a key to Scripture the church can't seem to embrace.  We want to conform everybody to think the same, act the same, live the same . . .but that's not how we were created, we're not meant to be cookie-cutter Christians . . .or denominationally branded.  We are individuals, our relationship is "personal".  So should be the application of Scripture . . .

The gnashing of teeth is for me, a mind set . . .when truth comes, it comes without logic.  It can't be explained.  But the mind is wired to respond after reasoning is applied.  When there is no reasoning, the mind becomes distraught . .  . people can't stand the thought of chaos.  They can't stand the idea of being out of control . .but that's just what a humble heart does, it gives control over to the spirit and in the spirit, you become like the wind, there's no logic or reason, you can't predict from where it comes, to where it goes.  And best of all, if you can't tell when it's coming or when it's going, you can't contain it, control it, govern it . .the best you can do is set your sails according to it . . which the wind changes . . you can't change it back, all you can do is readjust your sails according to it.

I got ahead of myself there . .because those that reject the freedom of the spirit, are the ones that have the greatest reaction against others that do.  It creates a "gnashing" . .the gnashing of teeth is simply an outward manifestation of an inward clash.  It's not a place, it's a state of mind . . . Scripture must interpret Scripture . . .

Psalm 35:16
With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

Acts 7:54
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

This incident in Acts . . .it was the state of mind these people were in just before they stoned Stephen.  The place of gnashing of teeth is not hell . . .it's merely a state of one's mind that rejects the kingdom . . .the kingdom is not heaven, it's not a place either . .but like gnashing of teeth, it also is a state of mind.  The things I've been sharing here are coming from a transformed mind . . . I can't explain all I see . . .I can't understand all I see.  But I've learned to not let my mind do the reasoning anymore.  I no longer care if things make sense or not . . .because I know that God speaks through seeds . . .initially it looks like nothing, but leave it in me for a while and eventually, the nothing grows into something . . and the transformation continues.

I know that's not answering the issue directly . . . but I think if we're going to go into the kingdom, we should address the traditional assumptions as they surface . . .release them to the Father as we go . . .that's the only reason why differences pop up . . so they can be released to the Father. 

Now, more on topic . . . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

I hear ya Nathan and much to ponder here and I will do that as soon as my life slows down a bit. It is so good to look forward to though, these words of so many in this thread.

I am just saying that people, like you say, can't get over certain things like the need for the rapists and those who take joy in doing evil.............that these people need some kind of 'extra' punishment or they feel they just get a free ride to Heaven. Sure we can say it's not a free ride as it cost Jesus and His Father much but you know what I mean. If some can party and do evil up to and including the end and then get cleaned up later then this world would be even worse than it is.

I think we should take some time and seek God on what does happen to those who leave here unbelievers and downright nasty people. Do they just become enlightened and forgiven and move on? Is there any discomfort or downright terror and pain for these people? What do you think?

Again, I know I am equally or more nasty than any other person and I know I have been given infinitely more than I deserve so is this the story of the bad guys who live a life of badness and enjoy it and laugh in God's face? Do they die here and get cleaned up or set right somehow? Of course they do but is there any pain and misery for them?

cp

[lsmann2]

Sounds like EVERYTHING is allogorical. At what point can we look at the Bible and say "This is literal?" :dontknow:

[jabcat]

. . I still think, whatever the process of cleansing may be for the Hitlers out there . . . there must be something pretty severe taking place . . .because Jesus went through unimaginable pain and suffering to keep us from having to experience it.  Outside of that, all I know is, it's not eternal, it's not forever, and as hard as it is for my mind to grasp . . .I'm going to say it in spite of my mind's belligerence . . . we will be united "with" Hitler in the end and not one individual will even care . . .because truth will be revealed to all . .. and all will realize there is only one worthy of praise . .and it aint us.  There will be only one focal point  there . . . and it won't be on the people that were tyrants here . . . it'll be on the sacrificial Lamb of God . . and Him alone.

At that point,  all that will be left will be good and righteous.   All purified by God through that sacrifical Lamb of God.  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Sounds like EVERYTHING is allogorical. At what point can we look at the Bible and say "This is literal?" :dontknow:

Ah, IMO, that's where a "somewhere in the middle, don't fall in the ditch on either side of the road" enters this particular part of the discussion.  I've been wanting to weigh in with this, thanks for the opportunity.

I believe brothers like Nathan have their important place in the body.  Won't mention names, not currently posting much here, but I also believe that's where a brother like ____________ who is very literal, has his important place in the body.  IMO, there is a literal;  a natural, that's it's not all "spiritual", and certainly not all allegorical.  I THINK IT"S BOTH, literal and spiritual.  I see it that many things, though literal, have deeper layers, spiritual meanings as it were.  And that's often where the "nuggets" are...they have to be dug out from beneath.  But that doesn't negate the literal aspect, there's just "more than meets the eye".   My (apparently s/w debatable) understanding is, that many things are primarily "to" others, but all of it for all of us (as God reveals).  As sister Card says, much of it is "hidden in plain sight".

So IMO, it's not all one or the other.  I see it as both;  we need both;  seeing one doesn't negate the other.  My  :2c:.