1 Timothy 4:10

[Truth seeker]

 "For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

I know its a classic for universalists. Can someone tell me about the details of this verse please? im guessing if I was to use this as an apologetic ET believers will have an answer to it. I just want to know about the time, place,was, where and who ect. I will do some study on this It just popped up again today so would like t get others views. As I read the letters in the Bible from Paul and his brothers I get the feeling hes only talking to those already believing? for me clearly this verse suggests otherwise.

[Shev]

Hey Truthseeker,

My two cents, though I am not sure how helpful this is, would be to just show how the verse definitely refers to all. ET adherents like to say this means something along the lines of "the potential Savior of all men, but in reality believers." However, a good comparison verse is 2 Timothy 4:13...

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.

Both passages use μάλιστα as "especially", and have the same context. Paul still wanted ALL his books to be brought to him by Timothy, but ESPECIALLY the parchments. God is saving ALL mankind, but ESPECIALLY believers.

[jugghead]

Hey Truthseeker,

My two cents, though I am not sure how helpful this is, would be to just show how the verse definitely refers to all. ET adherents like to say this means something along the lines of "the potential Savior of all men, but in reality believers." However, a good comparison verse is 2 Timothy 4:13...

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.

Both passages use μάλιστα as "especially", and have the same context. Paul still wanted ALL his books to be brought to him by Timothy, but ESPECIALLY the parchments. God is saving ALL mankind, but ESPECIALLY believers.

excellent observation Shev :banana:  :thumbsup:  :gimmefive:

[Seth]

In my experience they will try to make "especially" and "exclusively" mean the same thing. That's where the dictionary definition will show, along with examples, that especially is an inclusive word by nature. Another defense is that they'll say that Jesus is the Savior of the world in terms of potential but not in results. That can be challenged in myriad ways. Doesn't mean they'll listen though.

[marie glen]

..amen.. and "especially" believers, because believers are being saved right now, whereas non believers - the rest of the "all" their being saved has not yet been activated.. so to speak.

And if the second part of the verse means "exclusively" those who believe, it doesn't make a lot of sense - "who is the Savior of all men, exclusively of those who believe." ..isn't that like saying in one breath, opposites?


...believers don't listen (til Yahweh activates it??) but nonbelievers do... the hell doctrine makes no logical sense in any way. God can only be perfect, which includes all powerful and all knowing. (All capable, all able, all light no darkness :smile: ) Any idea which contradicts that cannot be true. And it's all in God's word. I forget how many Greek words are (or were) translated to read "hell".. A lot more than i ever suspected or expected..
:Peace2: :smile:

[rosered]

  Hi    all,
  I believe it is as simple as    GOD will save all men ,'' the   especially''    ,  Are     those  are the ones with the     anointing   whom   GOD has chosen    and many are called because of these  chosen few .

  Paul was a good example   of  being a father  in the sense of making them ''chaste virgins ''for Christ   or prepared to receive salvation   though the gospel  he preached ,

    The   1 John 2   letter    describes this very well  in my opinion ..   saying  because you knew Christ existed from the beginning , sort of like the  faith of Abraham's seed and that promise   God kept    to him  way back than    to this day even .

[eaglesway]

James 1:9 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Eph 1 In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 8 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

[darryl]

Hey Truthseeker,

My two cents, though I am not sure how helpful this is, would be to just show how the verse definitely refers to all. ET adherents like to say this means something along the lines of "the potential Savior of all men, but in reality believers." However, a good comparison verse is 2 Timothy 4:13...

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.

Both passages use μάλιστα as "especially", and have the same context. Paul still wanted ALL his books to be brought to him by Timothy, but ESPECIALLY the parchments. God is saving ALL mankind, but ESPECIALLY believers.

excellent !  :thumbsup:

[darryl]

In my experience they will try to make "especially" and "exclusively" mean the same thing. That's where the dictionary definition will show, along with examples, that especially is an inclusive word by nature. Another defense is that they'll say that Jesus is the Savior of the world in terms of potential but not in results. That can be challenged in myriad ways. Doesn't mean they'll listen though.

no, most will not listen..because they do not want to...or because they are blind..or both. :dunno2: :dontknow:

[jabcat]

In my experience they will try to make "especially" and "exclusively" mean the same thing.

yep..

[darryl]

In my experience they will try to make "especially" and "exclusively" mean the same thing. That's where the dictionary definition will show, along with examples, that especially is an inclusive word by nature. Another defense is that they'll say that Jesus is the Savior of the world in terms of potential but not in results. That can be challenged in myriad ways. Doesn't mean they'll listen though.

Very true. I did a quick word study on 'malista', the Greek word Paul uses which means 'especially'...Paul NEVER uses 'malista' in the sense of something being 'exclusive'.

Paul's use of the Greek word 'malista' (English meaning='especially')

Galatians 6:10
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Philippians 4:22
All God's people here send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.
1 Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
2 Timothy 4:13
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.
Titus 1:10
For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.
Philemon 1:16
no more as a servant, but above a servant -- a brother beloved, especially to me, and how much more to thee, both in the flesh and in the Lord!

so how can 'malista' in 1 Timothy 4:10 possibly be meant in the 'exclusive' sense ?.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

The 'hellists' are being patently absurd. By saying that in 1 Tim 4:10 the word 'especially'('malista')  is meant in the exclusive sense, they are in effect saying that Paul has contradicted himself, has contradicted his use of 'malista' in all the other Pauline passages where it is plainly used in an inclusive sense.The 'ECT crowd' are clutching at straws.

[Truth seeker]

Hey Truthseeker,

My two cents, though I am not sure how helpful this is, would be to just show how the verse definitely refers to all. ET adherents like to say this means something along the lines of "the potential Savior of all men, but in reality believers." However, a good comparison verse is 2 Timothy 4:13...

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come—and the books, especially the parchments.

Both passages use μάλιστα as "especially", and have the same context. Paul still wanted ALL his books to be brought to him by Timothy, but ESPECIALLY the parchments. God is saving ALL mankind, but ESPECIALLY believers.

this is excellent thank you :banana: :thumbsup:

[Truth seeker]

..amen.. and "especially" believers, because believers are being saved right now, whereas non believers - the rest of the "all" their being saved has not yet been activated.. so to speak.

And if the second part of the verse means "exclusively" those who believe, it doesn't make a lot of sense - "who is the Savior of all men, exclusively of those who believe." ..isn't that like saying in one breath, opposites?


...believers don't listen (til Yahweh activates it??) but nonbelievers do... the hell doctrine makes no logical sense in any way. God can only be perfect, which includes all powerful and all knowing. (All capable, all able, all light no darkness :smile: ) Any idea which contradicts that cannot be true. And it's all in God's word. I forget how many Greek words are (or were) translated to read "hell".. A lot more than i ever suspected or expected..
:Peace2: :smile:

this is true when you say it like this. I cant see how they come to that unless they see Timothy saying he is the Saviour of the believers and the saviours of the non belivers (those who will turn to christ and believe in the future before death) bit of a long stretch though.

[Truth seeker]

James 1:9 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Eph 1 In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 8 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

thanks Eaglesway, there does seem to be an awful lot suggesting an order of salvation, I wonder sometimes why christians are so against it? Its like they have to feel they have the only right and almost a feeling of having to do "works" to be saved?

[Truth seeker]

In my experience they will try to make "especially" and "exclusively" mean the same thing. That's where the dictionary definition will show, along with examples, that especially is an inclusive word by nature. Another defense is that they'll say that Jesus is the Savior of the world in terms of potential but not in results. That can be challenged in myriad ways. Doesn't mean they'll listen though.

Very true. I did a quick word study on 'malista', the Greek word Paul uses which means 'especially'...Paul NEVER uses 'malista' in the sense of something being 'exclusive'.

Paul's use of the Greek word 'malista' (English meaning='especially')

Galatians 6:10
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Philippians 4:22
All God's people here send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.
1 Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
2 Timothy 4:13
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.
Titus 1:10
For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.
Philemon 1:16
no more as a servant, but above a servant -- a brother beloved, especially to me, and how much more to thee, both in the flesh and in the Lord!

so how can 'malista' in 1 Timothy 4:10 possibly be meant in the 'exclusive' sense ?.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

The 'hellists' are being patently absurd. By saying that in 1 Tim 4:10 the word 'especially'('malista')  is meant in the exclusive sense, they are in effect saying that Paul has contradicted himself, has contradicted his use of 'malista' in all the other Pauline passages where it is plainly used in an inclusive sense.The 'ECT crowd' are clutching at straws.

great work as always darryl! :banana: :thumbsup:
thank you for your time and effort i do appreciate your and eveyones help in my development of UR :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

thanks Eaglesway, there does seem to be an awful lot suggesting an order of salvation, I wonder sometimes why christians are so against it? Its like they have to feel they have the only right and almost a feeling of having to do "works" to be saved?

Jesus said the one who does not gather with me scatters. There is a Spirit that gathers, and there is a Spirit that scatters.

Many people who believe in ET or ED because they were taught that way truly grieve for the lost and still walk in a Spirit of reconciliation- even tho they do not yet see the full extent of what Christ has accomplished on the cross.

Many tho are like the Pharisees and Saducees, they have a different spirit. They love to be seen as "right" by their associates and disciples more than they love the truth. They are dependent upon traditions and false doctrines for their food and homes and salaries.

One thing I have seen is a believer in UR who has a "scattering" spirit, even tho the message is the salvation of all.

it is a complex question, but I believe seeing the purpose of the firstfruits is critical to throwing off the shackles of the "heaven and hell" deception.

Bliss or torment...is that all there is? I certainly hope not :o)

I don't believe God created us to just sit around singing praise songs in the age to come. I think it will be more like "Whistle While You Work" :o)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

[darryl]

In my experience they will try to make "especially" and "exclusively" mean the same thing. That's where the dictionary definition will show, along with examples, that especially is an inclusive word by nature. Another defense is that they'll say that Jesus is the Savior of the world in terms of potential but not in results. That can be challenged in myriad ways. Doesn't mean they'll listen though.

Very true. I did a quick word study on 'malista', the Greek word Paul uses which means 'especially'...Paul NEVER uses 'malista' in the sense of something being 'exclusive'.

Paul's use of the Greek word 'malista' (English meaning='especially')

Galatians 6:10
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Philippians 4:22
All God's people here send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.
1 Timothy 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
2 Timothy 4:13
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.
Titus 1:10
For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.
Philemon 1:16
no more as a servant, but above a servant -- a brother beloved, especially to me, and how much more to thee, both in the flesh and in the Lord!

so how can 'malista' in 1 Timothy 4:10 possibly be meant in the 'exclusive' sense ?.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

The 'hellists' are being patently absurd. By saying that in 1 Tim 4:10 the word 'especially'('malista')  is meant in the exclusive sense, they are in effect saying that Paul has contradicted himself, has contradicted his use of 'malista' in all the other Pauline passages where it is plainly used in an inclusive sense.The 'ECT crowd' are clutching at straws.

great work as always darryl! :banana: :thumbsup:
thank you for your time and effort i do appreciate your and eveyones help in my development of UR :dsunny:

thanks for your time and effort too !...we're all  on a journey of discovery.. working thru these concepts and Bible verses helps me alot and threads like yours motivate me to keep studying and develop my understanding of UR !   :thumbsup: :dsunny: