Tentmaker Forum

Hey Everyone,

1 Timothy 4:10

The idea that " God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course  is contrary to all sound doctrine.

I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people ( showing mercy to all each and every day they live) , especially of those who believe ( who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life)..

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 08:56:27 PM
Hey Everyone,

1 Timothy 4:10

The idea that " God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course  is contrary to all sound doctrine.

I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people ( showing mercy to all each and every day they live) , especially of those who believe ( who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life)..

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

Your ad libs to that scripture do not help. I take it your an annihilationist. If it said showing mercy to all each and every day they live, it would have said that. But a savior is just that- a savior. He cannot be the savior of the world if he does not save the world.In the Ot the sacrifice pleasing to God was the fat and insides of the beast, while the flesh was burned outside the camp. All flesh, must be cast out and burned (in the lake of fire) while God takes what is inside and places it on His altar.

As much as you may believe so, (and I know not whether you do or not, though your screename says otherwise) you did not choose God, God chooses us through his sovereignty and faith. That is why it is a gift (Eph 2 8). The carnal mind as Cp said cannot receive it. Jesus spoke in parables KNOWING they could not understand at that time (Mark 11-12). God hardened Pharoah's heart. We all at some point produced evil in this world. But in sovereignty and rank he is slowly but surely redeeming all things, and it is his good pleasure.

"This is comely and acceptable before our God,
Who willeth all men to be saved, and unto a personla knowledge of the truth to come;For there is one God, One mediator also between God and men- A man Jesus Christ"  1 tim 2 10
" Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from olden time that which had never been done,- Saying My PURPOSE SHALL STAND, AND ALL MY PLEASURE I WILL PERFORM"
Isaiah 46 10

Grace and peace.

Brandon

Hey Brandon,

No, I'm not annihilationist.. All people enjoy God's salvation in some way like those who BELIEVE enjoy His salvation. God is the Savior of all people in a temporal sense, while believers in an eternal sense. All people experience earthly benefits from the goodness of God.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 08:56:27 PM
Hey Everyone,

1 Timothy 4:10

The idea that " God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course  is contrary to all sound doctrine.

I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people ( showing mercy to all each and every day they live) , especially of those who believe ( who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life)..

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

The natural mindset cannot receive the things of God....

But the  natural  man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.1cor2.14

Sound doctrine, to the natural mind, rejects such a clear statement from God Himself while a mind more attuned to the Spirit might just see the sense of it (minus your additions of course).

By the way, Chosen, who's 'sound doctrine' are you talking about anyway?

I hope I get 'full salvation' and not just a partial dose. Can you tell me what a partial dose of salvation will get me?

Do you believe God's mercy endures forever and His wrath endures but a moment? What about for the myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus? Wouldn't you have to deny what the Good Book says again and say that, concerning them anyway, that His wrath endures forever and His mercy lasts but a moment?

cp

Cp,

All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:20:16 PM
Cp,

All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.

I would be careful calling God's grace common. It is anything but common. It is amazing and beyond certain minds to even comprehend.

I'm just giving you a hard time, Chosen. I know what you mean. God's grace does reach out to all people all the time. I feel for those who still are in darkness concerning the great salvation that has been attained for them but their day is coming as our day came for us!

cp

Cp,

There day is coming ONLY if they are drawn by the Father by His sovereign grace and granted the repentance and faith to BELIEVE IN JESUS to be saved.( Eph 1:3-5; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

You must repent and believe in Jesus to receive salvation in this lifetime. (Hebrews 9:27)

Chosen, you have neglected to respond to some of my questions. I do not ask any questions lightly. I am trying to respond to all of yours.

Here is one I would like you to respond to.............

Do you believe God's mercy endures forever and His wrath endures but a moment? What about for the myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus? Wouldn't you have to deny what the Good Book says again and say that, concerning them anyway, that His wrath endures forever and His mercy lasts but a moment?

cp

Cp,

Yes, God's mercy endures forever. God is infinite so is His Wrath.



The myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus is God's sovereign choice.

No, because you believe God owes wicked, unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him and hate Him mercy. Read  Romans 9:14-25. God owes the rebellious sinner nothing. Yet God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( Romans 5:8)

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 10:35:35 PM
Cp,

There day is coming ONLY if they are drawn by the Father by His sovereign grace and granted the repentance and faith to BELIEVE IN JESUS to be saved.( Eph 1:3-5; Acts 11:18 ; Phil 1:29)

You must repent and believe in Jesus to receive salvation in this lifetime. (Hebrews 9:27)

And I , if I be  lifted  up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  jn12.32

Oh, you are so right, Chosen. Only those drawn, literally dragged, to Jesus will be saved and the Good Book tells us clearly and plainly who are to be drawn. Doesn't that make you just jump for joy or are you upset thinking no one may burn because of God's eternal anger?

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:heb9.27

Wow, a friend of mine and me are discussing this exact verse right now. How timely of you to quote it.

It does not say 'It is appointed man once to die and then it's either eternal heaven or hell' does it? It says 'It is appointed man once to die and then JUDGMENT'.

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy  judgments  [are] in the earth,  the inhabitants of the world will  learn  righteousness. is26.9

Chosen, do you see what judgment is all about? Judgment is a good and terrible thing, but a perfect and good thing for all people. Harsh, yes, but very good!

Judgment is called a day of salvation. A day is as a thousand years with God. There is much more to judgment than most realize, Chosen.

cp

Cp,

No one is dragged to salvation. That is a distorted view of sovereign election.

Hebrews 9:27 Judgment is just that. No second chances. When you die you are going to be judged rather or not you stand in the righteousness of Jesus or your own filthy rags self-righteousness. Depending on which righteousness you stand in is where you will be ( Hades or Heaven) until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:09:28 PM
Cp,

Yes, God's mercy endures forever. God is infinite so is His Wrath.



The myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus is God's sovereign choice.

No, because you believe God owes wicked, unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him and hate Him mercy. Read  Romans 9:14-25. God owes the rebellious sinner nothing. Yet God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( Romans 5:8)

But Chosen, the Bible says His wrath endures but a moment. How can you say it is infinite? How can you so flatly deny your Fathers very own words? This amazes me and causes me some concern for you but who am I to talk!

God owes us and me nothing. He bestows grace upon all. Grace, Chosen, not just for those who think they deserve it like you, but for all and I think His grace is sufficient for all. Paul was the chief of sinners and it was good enough for him. Do you know a sinner greater than Paul. And remember Paul did not initially ask to be saved did he?

And Chosen, don't ever put words into my mouth or don't ever think you can speak for me! That is wrong. I did not ever say God owes unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him, mercy. I never said that. You are playing the evil one here and rearranging words to hurt and confuse.

Only those who seek God will find Him. How anyone becomes a seeker of God is the work of the One who works in us to do of His good pleasure.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his]  good   pleasure. phil2.13

cp

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:17:09 PM
Cp,

No one is dragged to salvation. That is a distorted view of sovereign election.

Hebrews 9:27 Judgment is just that. No second chances. When you die you are going to be judged rather or not you stand in the righteousness of Jesus or your own filthy rags self-righteousness. Depending on which righteousness you stand in is where you will be ( Hades or Heaven) until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

Look up the greek word for drawn. It is literally dragged. Looks like you're on your own from here on out my friend unless others step in. I think I've written way enough for you to see where I am coming from and I have backed up all my thoughts with Scripture and reasonings.

Go ahead thinking your thoughts but please keep asking, seeking and knocking on the door of the One who knows all!

cp

Cp,

By your comments about the myriads of people who don't hear of Jesus sounds like God is obligated to  give mercy to these sinners who rebel against Him and blaspheme His name.

Read Romans 3 : 10-19. no one seeks after God or does good. Therefore, the only ones seeking after God are the ones who are being drawn to Him sovereignly.( John 6:44)

Cp,

No one is dragged against their will to salvation. :thumbsup: :winkgrin:

Chosen, so what do you believe? I read earlier that you do not believe in annihilationism.

Do you believe that ALL human beings will eventually be reconciled to God?
or
Do you believe only SOME will, and the rest will be... what?
I find it hard to follow someone's posts if I don't know their core beliefs.

Sparrow,

No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3). And that comes by sovereign election( John 6:44 ; Eph 1:3-5 )

You answered my question, but not entirely.
To the bolded in my post above... the rest will be...what?
What happens to those whom God does not "choose"
After their earthly death, what happens to them, in your eyes?

Quote1 Timothy 4:10 Does this teach Jesus is The Savior of everyone who has lived?

1 Corinthians 15:22 does say so in my opinion, 1 Timothy 4:10 and Romans 5:18 e.g. support this view; one should not build a doctrine on a single verse, therein I agree.

According to the word of God the unrighteous are judged and punished. (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Thess 1:7-9 ; Rev 20:11-15; Rev 21:8). They go to Hades temporarily until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

Sven,

1 Cor 15:22 "For just as in Adam all die, in the same way also in Christ all will be given life."

This Scripture teaches that all "in Adam" (non-believers) die, all "in Christ" ( believers) are made alive ( born again)

Another words, all who die in their sins die "in Adam" all who believe "in Christ" are given life.. You don't want to die in Adam.

willieH: Hi CoG37...  :cloud9:

:welcome:  Welcome dear  :newb:

A few comments:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 09:51:33 PMNo, I'm not annihilationist.. All people enjoy God's salvation in some way like those who BELIEVE enjoy His salvation.

How does one BELIEVE CoG37?  Is not FAITH "given out by measure"? -- Rom 12:3 -- And,

Is it not AUTHORED by CHRIST? -- Heb 12:2 -- And,

Is NOT GOD impartial to ALL? -- Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Mark 12:14 -- Gal 2:6 -- Prov 28:21 -- And

Is REPENTENCE, not realized by the DRAWING of GOD?  -- John 6:44 & 65 -- and the GOODNESS of GOD's LEADING -- Rom 3:4

So all this taken into consideration, ...How does this possibly rest upon OUR individual shoulders?  :dontknow:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 09:51:33 PMGod is the Savior of all people in a temporal sense, while believers in an eternal sense. All people experience earthly benefits from the goodness of God.

Nice job of ADDING and SUBTRACTING from what the WORD actually SAYS:

1 Tim 4:10  for therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ...especially... those that BELIEVE

There is NO MENTION of anything "TEMPORAL" or "ETERNAL" in this verse... except BY YOU!

Also, this verse does NOT MENTION, nor is it at all concerned with "EARTHLY BENEFITS", CoG37... :mnah:

Just the simple notation that GOD ...IS... the SAVIOR of ALL MEN... So "SALVATION" is an "IS" type of thing...  :dontknow: as well as an "ALL MEN" type of thing!  :boogie:

And those who "BELIEVE", are "special" in some way...  In "what way"?  You might ask:

Those who "BELIEVE" amidst the time of evil in which we are presently a part, ...are chosen to believe, by GOD... NOT OF THEMSELVES -- Eph 2:8-9 -- For if it (Salvation) were due to something THEY decided, then of their "doing/decision" --  and ESTABLISHED, verified, and thereby instituted, and finalized BY that "decision",  ...they could therefore BOAST about it - could they not?   :Whistle:

Well the SORROWFUL fact IS,  ...that MOST of those who "BELIEVE" do that VERY THING [Boast of it]!   :sigh:

And BECAUSE they take "credit" for "DECIDING" their own "Salvation" -- they shall suffer the following address FROM the Savior:  Matt 7:22-23 ---

In the following verse in Eph 2 -- we find that GOD had ORDAINED that those "believers" would so walk in the footsteps of "belief" at HIS "BEFORE ORDAINED" decision that they would so walk -- Eph 2:10

The "FAITH" that enables "believers" to "believe" is FOREORDAINED, AUTHORED and GIVEN by GOD... as I have noted above.

:Peace: -- :newb: -- and again --  :welcome:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:51:34 PM
According to the word of God the unrighteous are judged and punished. (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Thess 1:7-9 ; Rev 20:11-15; Rev 21:8). They go to Hades temporarily until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

What typical (blinded) ORTHODOX vision is this...  :sigh: 

No offense, but are you posting directly from your "church's" doctrinal statement, CoG37?  :dunno:

willieH: Hi cp! :hithere:

Quote from: claypot on August 15, 2009, 10:28:54 PM
I would be careful calling God's grace common. It is anything but common. It is amazing and beyond certain minds to even comprehend.

cp

:goodpost:   :iagree: ...and "amen" bro!

Hey Willie,

Thanks for your entertaining post and warm welcome. No, I don't quote from any church beliefs. Just use sound biblical doctrine. All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.


No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation. It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him. In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood? Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto righteousness.

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join. You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3). And that comes by sovereign election( John 6:44 ; Eph 1:3-5; Phil 1:29)  :winkgrin: :thumbsup:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:51:34 PM
According to the word of God the unrighteous are judged and punished. (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Thess 1:7-9 ; Rev 20:11-15; Rev 21:8). They go to Hades temporarily until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

And then what?

Sparrow,

Read Revelation 14 :10-11.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:28:58 AM
Sparrow,

Read Revelation 14 :10-11.

So you believe in "eternal torment" meaning God who IS love, will allow the very creatures that HE created to suffer for all eternity?

Is this your belief?

willieH: Hi CoG37  :cloud9:

Did you come here thinking you would SAVE us from our belief?   :dontknow:

:omg:  Do you fail to realize that (practically) ALL here @ Tentmaker, came from the varying ORTHODOX systems of Christianity?

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:09:28 PMYes, God's mercy endures forever. God is infinite so is His Wrath.

What a "FEAR" trip!  :thumbdown:  You are welcome to it, but don't fool yourself into thinking it will "fly" here... :pitiful:

1 John 4:8  ...God ...IS LOVE...

1 John 4:18  There is NO FEAR in ...LOVE... Perfect LOVE -- CASTETH OUT FEAR -- because FEAR hath TORMENT!  He that FEARETH is NOT made PERFECT in LOVE ...or one that TEACHES FEAR!

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:09:28 PMThe myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus is God's sovereign choice.

No, because you believe God owes wicked, unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him and hate Him mercy.

GOD "owes" Himself to save us dude!  We are ALL unrighteous "sinners"... and NONE seek after God! -- Rom 3:10-12 -- Ps 14:1-3 --  (just curious, Do you have a Bible of your own?)  We are however, ALL -- His created beings, which did NOT CHOOSE to come here, nor did we CHOOSE to be ABLE to SIN... :mnah:  Which is, btw... where HIS MERCY comes in...  :laughing7:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:09:28 PMRead  Romans 9:14-25. God owes the rebellious sinner nothing.

It amazes me that someone can read Rom 9:14-25 (one of my very FAVORITE passages in the WORD) -- And arrive at such a conclusion of it!

This passage is a VERY INVOLVED discussion unto itself, but the designation of GOD noting in verse 16 that it is NOT about our WILL, but HIS, shall indicate that our WILL is ridiculously "OVERRATED", especially concerning His WORK as POTTER...  

I don't wish to SIDETRACK and  :hijacked: ...that said, I would be happy to discuss this in another thread which TOPICALLY indicates these verses if you would like to debate its TRUE meanings...  :friendstu:  

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:09:28 PMYet God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( Romans 5:8)

This "US", of course (conveniently) INCLUDES -- YOU, ...right?  Please! :rolleye:

Just curious, ...how long have you studied God's WORD bro?  It seems you have a pretty narrow vision of it to this point... (which is okay, I don't put you down for it!  ...we are all on the pathway of learning)

Btw... also curious as to how and WHY, you came to Tentmaker, ...did your Pastor "so&so" tell you to come "save" us believers in the "Salvation of ALL MEN"?  :laughing7:

Sparrow,

No offense, but I have written my beliefs from the word of God in previous post. To avoid repeating myself please review them.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:38:31 AM
Sparrow,

No offense, but I have written my beliefs from the word of God in previous post. To avoid repeating myself please review them.

If that is your answer... then, ok.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AM
Hey Willie,

Thanks for your entertaining post and warm welcome. No, I don't quote from any church beliefs. Just use sound biblical doctrine. All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.

If you are "37 years old" as your handle might indicate (just guessing), KNOW that I "read" this passage when you were age 4... and several times since...

To this point, I would say you are using "deaf" doctrine, hardly Biblical... by having already ADDED to what the WORD says concerning the VERSE under discussion...

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMNo, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation.

GOD's "choosing" is about those involved in the "mission", not of those that are the subjects of the "mission"... which said subjects are the beneficiaries of the mission, not chosen to accomplish its agenda.

And BTW this (above in blue) is STATED where?  According to the BIBLE that I have in my possession:

Luke 19:10 -- For the Son of Man is come to SEEK and TO SAVE, that which was LOST (the word "LOST" is APOLLUMI in the Greek, same as the "LOST" son in -- Luke 15:11-32)

Hmm... how many do you percieve are in this "LOST" condition CoG37?

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMIt has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

Which means that GOD is lying 9 Times (that I have found) in His WORD as He notes that He is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS?  :dontknow:  Acts 10-34 -- Job 34:19 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- rom 2:11 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Prov 28:21 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Mark 12:14 

For if He were to be "electing" to SAVE some and not others, then He would thereby indicate Himself, as a RESPECTER of PERSONS... :mnah:  You can buy this garbage, ...I do not.

As I said, your vision appears narrow at this time... but let us continue to interact...

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMGod is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect.

Where is THIS stated IN the WORD, ...CoG37?  :dontknow:  Methinks you just repeat things that others have told you, and BELIEVE them without personally researching to find out whether or not these things are actually NOTED in the WORD...

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMJesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him.

Maybe YOU should "read it" bro... verse 21:  "that they may be one, as Thou Father art in Me and I in Thee, that they may be one in Us, ...that THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that Thou hast sent Me"

What did PAUL say to BELIEVERS who were "going into the WORLD" CoG37?

2 Cor 5:18-19  and ALL THINGS are OF GOD who hath RECONCILED us to Himself and hath given us the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION... to wit that GOD was IN CHRIST, ...RECONCILING the WORLD to Himself, ...NOT... IMPUTING their TRESPASSES unto them, and hath COMMITTED unto Us, the WORD of ...RECONCILIATION 

Do YOU carry the WORD of RECONCILIATION to the WORLD, CoG37?  Telling THEM what the WORD SAYS?  That indeed GOD has RECONCILED the WORLD to Himself via the Cross of CHRIST? -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMIn the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood?

Of course He LOVED them brother -- He IS LOVE!  ...You percieve that He LOVES YOU, do you not?  Will YOU DIE?  Or do you think yourself to be the FIRST Human being to NEVER DIE?  :laughing7:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMOnly Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto "righteousness".

Sorry, but this is short sighted CoG37 -- ALL MEN are APPOINTED to DIE... and it is because ALL are ALL SINFUL and ALL are concluded in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 

You note that Noah and his fam "survived the flood" but, ...what did Noah do immediately after his "SAVING" trip in the Ark?  READ IT -- Gen 9:21 -- Do you think this is the "RIGHTEOUSNESS" unto which Noah and his fam, was "CHOSEN"? CoG37?   :beerburp:

How about His SON Ham? -- Gen 9:22 -- Ham was part of the fam that "survived", yet he is here "peeking" in on a naked and drunken dad... whatupwidat?

And, ...oh yeah -- since you are IN the Chapter, read verse Gen 9:29 -- and "all the days of Noah were 950 years, and he D___.  You fill in the blank bro, ...Can you tell me what he did after 950 years CoG37?   :dontknow:

ALL men are APPOINTED to DIE, brother CoG37 -- Heb 9:27 -- These met their death (in the flood) at THEIR APPOINTMENT to it... and it served as demonstration that SINFUL vessels ALL DIE... Noah and his family did not DIE in the FLOOD, but they DID DIE... for the very same REASON the "Flood victims" died... They were SINNERS... APPOINTED to DEATH!

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMChristianity is not some social club that everyone can join.

Unfortunately, ...THAT (social club) is EXACTLY what it is...  :sigh:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMYou have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3). And that comes by sovereign election( John 6:44 ; Eph 1:3-5; Phil 1:29)  :winkgrin: :thumbsup:

Well-well... If it is HIS ELECTION (which I agree it IS), then MAN has NOTHING to do with it, eh?  To include the narrow-minded vision of any given man, "accepting" it -- :dontknow:

He IN DUE TIME will TESTIFY (the election of) His RANSOM for ALL -- READ IT CoG37:

1 Tim 2:3-6 -- CHRIST ...IS... the Savior of ALL MEN, ransomed for ALL to be ...TESTIFIED,  ...IN due time...

Quote from: willieH on August 16, 2009, 01:43:19 AM

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:12:50 AMChristianity is not some social club that everyone can join.

Unfortunately, ...THAT (social club) is EXACTLY what it is...  :sigh:

A very, VERY under-acknowledged fact.  Of course, whatever the writer meant by the term "Christianity" is for him/her to define.

Joshua 5:13-15 (AV)...
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

The reason He was to take off his shoes was because there was not anything protecting him from his environment.  Nothing can protect you from God.  With the Prince or Chief of the multitudes of IEUE His Divine Presence was so intensified all there was holy and in a realm beyond life or death.

Some of us have endured much persecution to stand with Jesus and His word.  That is not the same as "Christianity," the history of which, at least Institutional Christianity, represents Mystery Babylon to my understanding.  There were people wholly for the Lord across the centuries, like the earliest Church, before what's been called "The Church of the Bishops" and Constantine a little later, as well as outsiders like the Montanists, the Lolliards, the anabaptists...these were not the ones who wrote the histories of their day.  Most of us don't know enough to even mention more than a movement or two.  The Pope ordered them persecuted and murdered.  His minions burned the vernacular Scripture portions, proof of their heresy, along with their copiers.  Today Institutional Christianity, not only demoninational, but most of the independent steeple houses also, are apostate, their doctrines and practices learned from Babylon.

His sword was drawn...

ChosenofGod37,

What I find significant about your use of the Bible is something I've found very hard to get the people who do it to recognize.  I think it is because of spiritual bondage described by the apostle when he speaks of those, "...in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them." (2 Co 4:4, CLT)  What is it about your use of the Bible I'm referring to?  You are unable to say your doctrine by directly quoting the words as written.  For as prejudiced as the translations have been made by those who paid for them that is saying something.  Do you notice how you cannot let the word speak for itself?  You have to insert your modifiers.  You wouldn't have to do this if it ever actually said what you are trying to make it mean.

Make your confessions of faith with the actual words God chose to make His revelation known, verifying from the original languages.


P.S. Someone a while back posted here in tentmaker examples from the word in all translations they could and found none to back up your re-stating something other than what is written for 1 Co 15:22, "...as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (AV)  It does NOT say, "...all in Christ shall be made alive."  As well, the equivalence of, "Even so," or, as CLT has, "Thus also," would be destroyed if that change is introduced.

 :cloud9: Good posts Willie and reFormer.........and Chosen, as Willie said, none of us here were "taught" this or "influenced" by others in any way to believe this. A sovereign God REVEALED His will in this mystery to us, calling us out of the bondages of man's carnal mind interpretations of the scriptures, which are SPIRIT (the scriptures) in origin. Blessings to you and welcome to Tent..........

"If you want to walk on water, you've got to get out of the boat."

peacemaker

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 12:38:31 AM
Sparrow,

No offense, but I have written my beliefs from the word of God in previous post. To avoid repeating myself please review them.

I'm coming back to this because I am wondering why you can't come out and say what you believe? This "I have written my beliefs in a previous post..." seems very weak to me.

I would like to know if you believe that God created human beings only to allow that their final fate be to suffer tortures for all eternity without ceasing..?? Is that what you believe? A simple yes or no will suffice.

It's par for the course when an ETer gets a bee in their bonnet and decided to come on here and imply that everyone else on here is deceived and that they alone are special to the vast exclusion of everyone else, and totally overlooking the fact that perhaps people on here and Gary Amirault sees UR because they have earnestly sought the truth for themselves

Don't look for a straight answer from these people with the ET mindsetas they like to pussyfoot around and evade the issue wherever possible :thumbdown:,

I'd like to make a suggestion if I may, I don't see an "Ignore User" feature on this board, could the board management perhaps consider installing such a feature on this board so that those of us that wish to utilize this feature can do so, there are some of us with issues that get triggered off whenever someone of the ET mindset comes on here and tries to browbeat everyone into their own way of thinking, many of us have come here to escape from the effects that doctrine has had on us

Have looked and found that this feature can be installed and can be downloaded from HERE (http://mods.simplemachines.org/index.php?mod=185)

Great posts WillieH and Reformer :thumbsup:

Shadow,

Sorry you feel that way. Just having respectable discussions about UR. Iron sharpens Iron when you have an disagreement and discuss it respectfully. Why try to run someone off or Ignore because they don't believe the same as you? How do you gain from that? I have disrespected no one on this forum with my posts and responses.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 05:02:08 PM
Shadow,

Sorry you feel that way. Just having respectable discussions about UR. Iron sharpens Iron when you have an disagreement and discuss it respectfully. Why try to run someone off or Ignore because they don't believe the same as you? How do you gain from that? I have disrespected no one on this forum with my posts and responses.

You did so to me when you put words in my mouth so to speak. But I have let it pass in the hopes we can discuss in a proper manner. Even though you and I may not move from our positions, others who read these discourses may gain from reading and interacting and as the Holy Spirit pleases, truth will come forth as Lazuras from the grave.

cp

Ok, I guess I'll do something productive here  :knitting:  while I wait.

Sparrow, you're funny!!!!!!

In Chosens defense, I think he has answered and I think you know his answer but you are making a point and I see it clearly.

Keep fighting the good fight, Sis. You're a bright light in a dark world and I appreciate you!

cp

Quote from: sparrow on August 16, 2009, 08:35:01 PM
Ok, I guess I'll do something productive here  :knitting:  while I wait.

:cloud9: roflol......... :laughing7:

Hey Sparrow,

No, just the devil, his demons and human beings that reject the only provision for forgiveness of sin, Jesus Christ.

Sparrow Read Romans 9:14-25. Focus on versus 19-25.

Hey Chosen,

Ok I read. I focused. How does that relate to your idea of God torturing some human beings for all eternity? I believe you are perhaps, misunderstanding these verses.

Sparrow,

Anything is possible, Sparrow. Perhaps it is you who is misunderstanding these verses. Read Romans 9:27. God only saves the remnant of Israel, not all of them.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 10:39:52 PM
Sparrow,

Anything is possible, Sparrow. Perhaps it is you who is misunderstanding these verses. Read Romans 9:27. God only saves the remnant of Israel, not all of them.

Weird I read in the Bible Romans 11.26 And so all Israel  shall be saved: as it is written.

Now what is your take on that Chosen?

Perhaps it is you who are ignoring certain verses in order to maintain your belief system? Just wondering.

cp

Cp,

Read the whole chapter 11 of Romans, Cp. focus on verses 4-10

Romans 11:26 teaches all the elect Jewish people alive at the end of the Tribulation, not the believing remnant of Jews within the church during this church age.

Weymouth:

2:29 But the true Jew is one inwardly, and true circumcision is heart-circumcision--not literal, but spiritual; and such people receive praise not from men, but from God.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 16, 2009, 11:59:49 PM
Weymouth:

2:29 But the true Jew is one inwardly, and true circumcision is heart-circumcision--not literal, but spiritual; and such people receive praise not from men, but from God.

excellent ! :thumbsup:

  the true Jew is born from above  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 08:56:27 PM
Hey Everyone,

1 Timothy 4:10

The idea that " God is the Savior of all men" means that all who have ever lived will be saved. This of course  is contrary to all sound doctrine.

I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 teaches that we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people ( showing mercy to all each and every day they live) , especially of those who believe ( who receive full salvation from His wrath and everlasting life)..

Look forward to your responses. God bless.

Our God is the Saviour of all mankind, not the potential Saviour, He is the Saviour of all! But wait: He is the Saviour "especially" of those who believe.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6082.0

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6082.0

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 11:37:32 PM
Cp,

Read the whole chapter 11 of Romans, Cp. focus on verses 4-10

Romans 11:26 teaches all the elect Jewish people alive at the end of the Tribulation, not the believing remnant of Jews within the church during this church age.

No such qualifying terminology is to be found in connection with the topic of Israel or Judaism, nor in the passages of Scripture to which you allude.  "Church age" is not a Biblical phrase.  God's plan centers on the Eclessia and that will never change, certainly not to revert to a lesser expression of His kingdom in the earth.  Racial dispensationalism, the source of much confusion, seems to have infected your thinking on these matters.  It promotes another unbiblcal phrase you've inserted here to make void the word of God.  There is no "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible; therefore, it is eliminated from the scheme of whatever we may expect to transpire in the future.

The tribulation coming in the close of this age is upon the wicked and occurs when the Overcomers are coming to be revealed, ruling in all the earth.  It is, "...whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe..." (1 Th 1:10, CLT)  The inner glory of God in us will be unveiled.  We are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.  Jesus is revealed from whence He dwells:  within us.  "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Th 1:6-8, AV)

Hey Reformer,

There is no "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible;

Read Daniel 9:24-27.

TITUS 3:10

There is a good reason for it.

willieH: CoG37 -- :pitiful:

Many of the membership here are more tactful than I... but I have a hard time with folks such as yourself which propose the DARKNESS of FEAR, ...in the place of the LIGHT of  LOVE, and which propose THEMSELVES as "selected" for Salvation, while others are just, NOT! ...how focused upon "SELF" is that?  :sigh:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:17:09 PMNo one is dragged to salvation. That is a distorted view of sovereign election.

Talk about DISTORTING... so far, that seems to be all you are able to do CoG37!  :sigh:

I call the above statement you have made, ...a LIE... it is contrary to what IS stated in the WORD of God... For God is not WILLING that ANY PERISH... 2 Pet 3:9

ANYONE and EVERYONE who is "SAVED", is DRAGGED... For a SINNER by nature,  loves the DARKNESS that is indulged, and that produces "SIN"... and IN that SINFUL state, is UNABLE to COME, nor is even inclined to do so... :mnah:

Scripture says this about that:

John 6:44 -- no man CAN come to me except the Father DRAW him and I will raise him up at the last day...

Okay --->

(1) Man cannot COME of himself, He must be DRAGGED [HELKUO] to the Savior...

(2) the word "DRAW" in this verse is DRAG in the Greek -- Look it up CoG37... that is, ...if it is your desire to LEARN -- :dontknow: -- #G1670 [strongs] HELKUO -- to ...DRAG... 

(3) if salvation were to be as you suppose it to be -- a choose "this one", but not "that one" scenario, ...then God is REDUCED to being a respecter of persons, being therefore, partial to one LUMP of dirt as opposed to another... not to mention a LIAR which falsely claims IMPARTIALITY...  :pitiful: 

I say He is NOT a LIAR, nor is He PARTIAL to YOU or any other human being!  :thumbdown:

Your Calvinistic vision, is completely selfish, and fails pathetically, for "PARTIALITY" goes against ALL the principles of FAITH, GIVING, and the stated desires of the WILL of GOD, setting oneself up as "special" above others for NO REASON... and is against ALL the Scriptural notations I have already noted...

Give me ONE REASON why GOD should SAVE YOU, CoG37... and not an ATHIEST. 

If you say that it is because YOU BELIEVE... then you are crediting YOURSELF, not Him...

If you say the GOD has given you the ability to BELIEVE and WILL NOT (in due time) give the same unto the ATHIEST, then you make Him and His WORD a lie...  :thumbdown:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:17:09 PMHebrews 9:27 Judgment is just that. No second chances. When you die you are going to be judged rather or not you stand in the righteousness of Jesus or your own filthy rags self-righteousness. Depending on which righteousness you stand in is where you will be ( Hades or Heaven) until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

There is NO such thing as a "1st CHANCE", let alone a "2nd CHANCE" -- CoG37!  Where do you get off noting that ANYTHING that GOD does is by "CHANCE"? :rolleye:  Please!

Note to US the Scriptural basis for "CHANCE", ...either 1st or 2nd...  :dontknow:

More ADDITION from you...  :thumbdown:

This is such "spiritual short sightedness", that it is not even worthy to be addressed... :mnah:

LOGIC itself is against this thinking... for GOD who is ALMIGHTY, didnt have to DO any of this... But He chose to do it... (create the human race and the basis for it's subsequent doings)

That HE decided the parameters of SIN and HE decided to conclude us ALL as descendents of ADAM, to be SINNERS, does not fall to us to bring a CONCLUSION concerning LIFE! What did YOU decide concerning THIS LIFE, CoG37?  Did YOU pick the ERA you would LIVE in?  Did YOU pick your parents? Your siblings? The country and city you would be born in?  The RACE you would be?  Gender?  Did YOU have to decide to LIVE before beginning LIFE as a baby?  Give me a break dude... you have thought little before opening your mouth.  :wacko2:

As your sorrowFILLED vision of CHRIST, ...for the most part notes Him to be: 

(1) a respecter of persons for NO reason  :thumbdown:

(2) a failure which did NOT accomplish the mission to SAVE the WORLD that God SO LOVED -- John 3:16

(3) Leaves the Father eternally empty as His desire for ALL to be SAVED -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- is somehow negated by SINFUL men...  :sigh:

(4) Notes that He in fact DID NOT take "away" the SIN of the WORLD, only of the chosen, for the rest to "fry" in forever... John 1:29

(5) Notes LOVE to be a facade... and Divine MERCY to be limited to PARTIALITY...

Methinks you are just a novice in Scriptural knowledge, and completely unable to respond... which is why you avoid responding... As reFORMer noted, you must first distort what IS WRITTEN, and compose it in such a manner as suits your RELIGION, then you take what YOU have written, and suppose to pass it off here @ TM... 

It is quite obvious, that the membership here is far more studied than yourself bro... so don't think to pass off your -- "re-written" versions of Scripture... :mnah:

:omg:  ...a word of CAUTION to you, that the JUDGMENT of YHVH shall note all these wreckless ADDITIONS and SUBTRACTIONS you have posted quite UNFAVORABLY, if you are smart, you will cease this practice, for you only ADD Judgment upon yourself, and SUBTRACT the approvals of God... to shame which will avail them -- Rev 3:18 -- :pitiful:

Quote from: ReformerThe tribulation coming in the close of this age is upon the wicked and occurs when the Overcomers are coming to be revealed, ruling in all the earth.  It is, "...whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe..." (1 Th 1:10, CLT)  The inner glory of God in us will be unveiled.  We are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.  Jesus is revealed from whence He dwells:  within us.  "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Th 1:6-8, AV)

I can hardly wait for this to happen. 

Hey Willie,

No offense, Methinks your blinded by your pride and arrogance as the day is long. That is what methinks. :winkgrin:

BTW, You are more than welcome to answer any of the 10 statements to teach me your theology biblically and with sound interpretation. But I have a feeling you won't be doing that anytime soon. God bless. :thumbsup:

willieH: Hey! -- CoG37 --  :grin:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 07:22:09 AM
Hey Willie,

No offense, Methinks your blinded by your pride and arrogance as the day is long. That is what methinks. :winkgrin:

You only display the juvenile state in which your "knowledge" resides bro...

Your whole view is DEFEAT not victory... It is PARTIALITY not IMPARTIALITY... contrary to Scripture as it is WRITTEN...  :dontknow:

For in order to establish your views, you must RE-WRITE SCRIPTURE to suit your selfish beliefs, and afterwards, ...YOU call ME arrogant?  :pointlaugh:  Please...  :laughing7:

I am only percieved as "BLIND" in "your sight" -- because you observe Spiritual things with carnal eyes...

If you really had the knowledge that you propose you have, you would have responded to my posts point by point, responding to the Scriptures I noted,  ...instead you resort to name calling as a distraction hoping to disguise your lack...  :sigh:

Which, btw... only plainly verifies what I noted as what, "methinks"... :nod:

BTW, You are more than welcome to answer any of the 10 statements to teach me your theology biblically and with sound interpretation. But I have a feeling you won't be doing that anytime soon. God bless.  :sigh: :dontknow: :mblush:

Methinks you take scriptures out of context and stick funny faces next to them. :laughing7:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 07:41:40 AM

BTW, You are more than welcome to answer any of the 10 statements to teach me your theology biblically and with sound interpretation. But I have a feeling you won't be doing that anytime soon. God bless.  :sigh: :dontknow: :mblush:

Methinks you take scriptures out of context and stick funny faces next to them. :laughing7:

More nothing from you...   :sigh:

Like I said, avoiding is what you do best... :nod: ...oh yeah, ...and unoriginality, don't forget UNORIGINALITY!  :laughing7:

Btw... what SCRIPTURE notes that "CONTEXT" is a demand of the WORD? 

If you KNEW Spiritual things, you would KNOW that the entire WORD is a SINGLE CONTEXT...  :dontknow:

willie said,
Btw... what SCRIPTURE notes that "CONTEXT" is a demand of the WORD?

Ohhhh, Now I see why Willie's interpretations are all over the place, Makes sense. :mshock:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 07:41:40 AM

BTW, You are more than welcome to answer any of the 10 statements to teach me your theology biblically and with sound interpretation. But I have a feeling you won't be doing that anytime soon. God bless.  :sigh: :dontknow: :mblush:

Methinks you take scriptures out of context and stick funny faces next to them. :laughing7:

10 statements? You claim to know 10 things about the Bible?  So far you have shown you know nothing except how to ADD or SUBTRACT from what IS WRITTEN in the WORD, ...but by all means... bring up the other nine...  :laughing7:

I'm willing to debate you on ANY premise you might like to offer within your "knowledge", ...CoG37!  Name it, I'll be there... Let's see what other things, you don't know...  :laughhand:

Just tell me where to go... (and please don't mention the MYTHICAL "HELL" that you believe in  :laughing7:)

Name yo' game bro...   :afFro:  :dontknow:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 07:57:12 AM
willie said,
Btw... what SCRIPTURE notes that "CONTEXT" is a demand of the WORD?

Ohhhh, Now I see why Willie's interpretations are all over the place, Makes sense. :mshock:

I notice you FAILED, ...to note the SCRIPTURE upon which you base your "theological" requirement of CONTEXT...

Where is it CoG37?  Having trouble locating it areya?  :laugh:

I'll be waiting for you to post it... but please, ...don't expect me to hold my breath while I wait!  :laughing7:

Hurry up though, after all, I'm 64 and time is running out...  but even if I live to be 80, you will still be looking for it --  :grin:

Willie,

right here on the homepage bro under statements to understand UR. knock yourself out.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 08:04:56 AM
Willie,

right here on the homepage bro under statements to understand UR. knock yourself out.

How evasive can you be...  :thumbdown: You do not "KNOW" how to be forthright.  :sigh:

"homepage"?... be specific and name the forum and/or reply to which you "named" your "TEN statements"

I have grandchildren less cryptic...  :pitiful:

Willie,

ohhh boy. click on Discussions on Universalism Salvation then click on statements to understand Ur.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 08:16:03 AM
Willie,

ohhh boy. click on Discussions on Universalism Salvation then click on statements to understand Ur.

I found it on my own and as of NOW, you have several replies from me (with more to come)...  :laughing7:

So much for your statement:

"BTW, You are more than welcome to answer any of the 10 statements to teach me your theology biblically and with sound interpretation. But I have a feeling you won't be doing that anytime soon."

You aren't much of a "prophet" are you? :mnah:  :laughing7:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 04:01:54 AM
Hey Reformer,

There is no "seven years great tribulation" in the Bible;

Read Daniel 9:24-27.

The term "tribulation" is not there at all.  It is a translation of the Hebrew way of writing numbers.  The number of years taken together are one of the most exact prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah.  At the beginning of the last seven years Jesus commences His ministry, He, "the annointed Prince is cut off in the midst of the week" and having made the sacrifice of Himself, entered into the true tabernacle which is in the heavens with His own blood; thus, "causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease."  At the end of the last seven years, Stephen is martyred.  So we have displayed the ministry of Christ the Seed and Head and the ministry of Christ the firstfuit crop and His body.

Daniel 9:24-27 ?  Nothing there about tribualtion of any kind.  "Seven years great tribulation" is entirely lacking.

Get a magnifying glass! and stop just repeating what you've been told by others who are only repeating what they were taught.  Look for yourself.  When you give an account to God you aren't justified by saying I gave my mind away to this teacher or that group.  God gave you capacities to learn and grow in critical thinking.  You have a conscience.  What is or is not written in Scripture should be what is decisive for our confession of faith; that, and the presence of God is our authority.  Many have never been taught to use concordances to implement the authority of Scripture.  If you don't know what is written or not, there is no authority.  His word, and it worked into our lives is what God annoints.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:58:00 PM

1 Cor 15:22 "For just as in Adam all die, in the same way also in Christ all will be given life."

This Scripture teaches that all "in Adam" (non-believers) die, all "in Christ" ( believers) are made alive ( born again)

Another words, all who die in their sins die "in Adam" all who believe "in Christ" are given life.. You don't want to die in Adam.

37: You most assuredly do not know the scope of pas/all. All die, all are made alive in the Lord Jesus Christ.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1463.0

Quote from: ReformerGet a magnifying glass!

LOL!  that made me laugh.

Seriously, could you illustrate how these weeks apply to the Messiah?  Because there is so much confusion out there about these passages, and how they are the 7 year tribulation (mostly from the left behind series and baptist teaching), that everyone thinks it is something that will happen in the future.  And, I find it impossible to understand, myself, written, as it is, in code.

Below is a fantastic commentary of the interpretation of 1 Tim 4:1O

realize the "usual" translation invites a "universalist" interpretation,

    Does it? We don't think so. The word μάλιστα is singling out "those who believe" (Greek "πιστῶν") as the specific portion of "all men". He is the savior of all humanity, the Apostle is saying, but then he modifies the term "all humanity" by adding a modifier, which is that Jesus is the savior to the benefit of a "very high point on a scale of extent" — in other words, to the benefit of a SUBSET of "all men". That subset is the group that believes. Given the narrowness of the scale of intent demonstrated by this superlative adverb, we didn't feel that using the adverb "especially" suited the context of μάλιστα especially well (uh, pardon the pun...). So we used "that is" instead.

but doesn't the choice you've made amount to "taking sides" theologically?

    Quite the opposite. Since we don't think μάλιστα implies any universalism, but rather is specifically REFUTING universalism (since Jesus is called the savior of those who believe[!] and not just of all humanity), we're attempting to remove the taking sides that takes place if one renders μάλιστα as "especially" in 1 Timothy 4:10. Also, Paul's use of μάλιστα is taking sides! He's saying that Jesus is the savior of a specific subset of "all humanity" (πάντων ἀνθρώπων), that is, he's the savior of "believers" (πιστῶν).

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 05:05:24 AM
Below is a fantastic commentary ...

Crime occurs principally in large cities, but not exclusively!

peacemaker

Sorry CoG37, 1 Tim 4:10 clearly states that Jesus is a savior even of them who do not believe. It proves that even if one does not believe, Jesus Christ is a savior to them, removing all doubt that if they do not believe, he will still save them.

You made an UNQUALIFIED leap of assumption to include the word "benefit" which does not appear in the scripture referenced. The verse does not say "to the benefit of a subset." It simply, without adding or subtracting, says that Jesus Christ is the savior of ALL men especially (ie not exclusively as you scratch and pull and stretch and torture the scripture to make it say) those who believe. Sorry.

They said: "we didn't feel that using the adverb "especially" suited the context of μάλιστα especially well (uh, pardon the pun...). So we used "that is" instead."

They didn't FEEEEL? WOW! Good thing I am not subject to what they feel. It's amazing to see the level of TWISTING that goes on.

Acts 20:38 — 38 They were especially sorrowful because of what he had said—that they would never see his face again.
They were sorrowful that he would be bound, and captured, but especially that they would never see him again, all points included.

Acts 25:26 — 26I have nothing reliable to write our Sovereign about him, so I have brought him to all of you, and especially to you, King Agrippa, so that I will have something to write after he is cross-examined. He brought them to ALL of them, but Agrippa is given special mention. Therefore not a statement of exclusivity

Acts 26:3 — 3since you are especially familiar with all the Jewish customs and controversies. I beg you, therefore, to listen patiently to me. Among other things, yet specifically referrencing his familiarity with Jewish customs, therefore not a statement of exclusivity

Galatians 6:10 — 10So then, whenever we have the opportunity, let's practice doing good to everyone, especially to the family of faith. We should do good to EVERYONE, all included, but specifically the family of faith.

Philippians 4:22 — 22All the saints, especially those of the emperor's household, greet you. ALL the saints still applies even though the the emperor's household has special mention. Not a statement of exclusivity.

1 Timothy 4:10 — 10To this end we work hard and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, that is, especially of those who believe. ALL apply, specifically those who believe. Not a statement of exclusivity, yet is the only place they attempt it. What a sick perversion!

1 Timothy 5:17 — 17Elders who handle their duties well should be considered worthy of double compensation, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. ALL elders who handle their duties will should be paid, specifically those who work hard. Not a statement of exclusivity.

2 Timothy 4:13 — 13When you come, bring the coat I left with Carpus in Troas, as well as the scrolls and especially the parchments. Applies to both scrolls and parchments. Not a statement of exclusivity.

Titus 1:10 — 10For there are many people who are rebellious, especially those who are converts from Judaism. Applies to not only converts from Judaism but many others who are rebellious, therefore not a statement of exclusivity.

Philemon 16 — ...no longer as a slave but better than a slave—as a dear brother, especially to me, but even more so to you, both as a person and as a believer. Applies to both Paul and "you" both as a person and believer, therefore not excluding either the proper name "Paul" or pronoun "you" in the statement.


Reference: http://isv.org/catacombs/1_timothy_4v10_especially.htm

Sorry bro, one of these things is NOT like the others. Your friends TWIST.  :laughing7: -- 

Q: "1 Timothy 4:10 Does this teach Jesus is The Savior of everyone who has lived"

A: Yes.

I clearly do not buy you exegesis 37. Nice try.

Lets use an Equation to see if what UR proposes makes sense or not compared to what Chosen of God proposes regarding 1 Timothy 4:10.

First UR...

God is the Savior of 100% ( All Men in General ), ...ESPECIALLY... of the 5% est. that have come to Know Him ( Believe ).


Now Chosen of God...

God is the Savior of 100% ( All Men in General ), ...THAT IS... the 5% est. that have come to Know Him ( Believe ).

Now which makes more sense?

QuoteDepending on which righteousness you stand in is where you will be ( Hades or Heaven) until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

Chosen

Where is heaven? Where is Hades? These are legitimate questions from the statement you made above.

Do you believe that heaven is "out there" somewhere? the same with hades? You see both is "within God". 

It was said "where would I go? heaven you are there, hell you are there."  God is omnipresent.  There is no where where He is not.  They are both "spiritual places".  Jesus said " I am in Heaven".  He was still very much in a flesh body when He said that.  He walked in the spiritual realm of heaven even while still on this earth.  They are not just  "places" we go to after physical death.  Heaven is not a place "out there" somewhere, with God sitting on a literal throne.  The same way when it says that Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father it does not mean 'He literally sat on a throne beside our Father's right side".  If God is omnipresent then , where is His right hand?" It means that Jesus took the position of authority beside the Father. (example: He is my right hand man).  It is a place of position.  Not a literal place.  For even Jesus must become subject to the Father. 

Jesus walked in the spiritual realm at all times.  We can too.  But you must go within.  He demostrated the spiritual realm on the mount of transfiguration.  And that was before His crucifixtion. 

There are many layers to the bible. To the written word.  The top layer being the "literal" layer.  But there are many layers beneath the literal layer.  Only the Holy Spirit can interpret these layers to you.  These are the hidden mystereies that Paul spoke about.  God's plan for the ages has been moving forward, is moving forward and will continue to move forward.  It did not stop.  These hidden mysteries that are deep within the pages of the written word have been being revealed to those true seekers all along.  We can choose to stop receiving , never moving forward and just sit on the knowledge that we received while sitting in the pews.  Hearing the same message over and over again for 40 or more years, never growing in the spirit, or we can choose to seek the Holy Spirit for His Truth, to begin to move beyond the veil. Knowing God and knowing about God is two different things.  We all need to move beyond the top layer of the written word to truly know God. The deep things of God are for those who truly seek Him.  Spirit to Spirit.  Is the only way. 

The written word says "you know longer need any man teach you for you have the Holy Spirit".  We CANNOT read the bible and interpret it ourselves.  That is still man teaching man.  Even if it is ourselves.

On the other side.  There are spiritual prisons.  But if you truly want to know what the Lake of Fire is that the bible speaks of then seek God on it.  For GOD HIMSELF IS A CONSUMING FIRE!! He will burn away all the wood hay and stubble and all that will be left is "pure gold".  Within each and every one of us. 
"do not be amazed at the firery trials that you go through, for they are for the PERFECTING of the saints!!!

God's plan for the ages is to make man in His image and likeness.  That is what He has been doing since time began. Each one of us.  Every man , woman and child who has ever lived, is living , or will ever live will be perfected and will take their place in the body of Christ!! The "manchild" that is spoke of in Revelations is "man made in God's image and likeness!! Made up of the whole human race as the body of Christ with JESUS AS THE HEAD!!!! This is the SON OF GOD!!! The manchild! THE NEW CREATION MAN!!!

The book of revelations is not a book of doom and gloom for the earth we walk on.  It is not "revelations that Jesus received to pass on".  For Jesus was God in the flesh. He ALREADY knew all! He knew all things from begining to end.  The book of the revelations of Jesus Christ is just that "It is a book revealing JESUS CHRIST!!! Who He is NOW, in the Spirit.  Revealing "the manchild" "the Christ" the new creation man , THE SON OF GOD , made up of the EKlesia as the body of Christ with JESUS the HEAD!!

That is why Jesus said "upon this Rock I will build my church". That is exactly what He has been doing all along is building His Church!! He is not in the business of burning or torturing anyone for eternity!! He has ONLY been building !!

Time was created for man.  Eternity is a period of time.  It has a begining and an ending!! There is no such thing as eternity in our Father's Kingdom.  There is no time.  That is why our Father said "I AM".  It is a place of "being".

If you believe in "eternal torment" for lost souls then "that too must end",, for all is within the concept of time which will eventually end.  Then what? those souls that should be burning alive for eternity goes where? Time is just a part of creation that is a part of our Father's plan for the ages and when all the ages has passed then time will be no longer. 

 :cloud9: AMEN 333, to all of it, and your very last sentence especially blessed me as a confirmation to an earlier thread discussion. Blessings.......

Amen Cardinal.  My prayer is for all to seek a deeper revelation of the true God.  Not the one that has been made up by man's interpretation of scripture. Divine revelation is still just as prevelant today as it was in the days of the apostles. For those who truly seek to hear God.

Quote from: Moshood on August 18, 2009, 09:11:08 AM
Lets use an Equation to see if what UR proposes makes sense or not compared to what Chosen of God proposes regarding 1 Timothy 4:10.

First UR...

God is the Savior of 100% ( All Men in General ), ...ESPECIALLY... of the 5% est. that have come to Know Him ( Believe ).


Now Chosen of God...

God is the Savior of 100% ( All Men in General ), ...THAT IS... the 5% est. that have come to Know Him ( Believe ).

Now which makes more sense?

Good post.

 :cloud9: 333; Sigh............a breath of fresh air............... :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Quote from: Moshood on August 18, 2009, 09:11:08 AM
Lets use an Equation to see if what UR proposes makes sense or not compared to what Chosen of God proposes regarding 1 Timothy 4:10.

First UR...

God is the Savior of 100% ( All Men in General ), ...ESPECIALLY... of the 5% est. that have come to Know Him ( Believe ).


Now Chosen of God...

God is the Savior of 100% ( All Men in General ), ...THAT IS... the 5% est. that have come to Know Him ( Believe ).

Now which makes more sense?

Hmmm...tough choice!  :laughing7:

Mosh.:   :thumbsup:

It's not even a question of which one makes more sense, but which makes any sense at all!

Quote from: Doc on August 18, 2009, 10:40:13 PM
Mosh.:   :thumbsup:

It's not even a question of which one makes more sense, but which makes any sense at all!

:laughing7:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:35:41 PM
God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect. Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him.

And Father has give all.

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
=> God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
=> The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
=> And Jesus accomplishes His task

Hard to argue with that.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Cardinal on August 18, 2009, 06:05:28 PM
:cloud9: AMEN 333, to all of it, and your very last sentence especially blessed me as a confirmation to an earlier thread discussion. Blessings.......

Would that be the dreaded time thread?  :laughing7:

Great post 333.

 :cloud9: Ah, yes it would...... :laughing7:

Quote from: 333 on August 18, 2009, 05:57:05 PM
But you must go within ... the mount of transfiguration. 

SPIRIT DRIVER'S LICENSE

Expires: NEVER   
Issued:   ON THE CROSS
Date of Birth: FROM THE BEGINNING
Height: ALL
Weight: ALL
Color: ALL
Hair: NUMBERED
Sex: NEITHER MALE, NOR FEMALE
Class: SPIRITUAL
Restrictions: NONE
Endorsements: CHRIST JESUS

Amen 333

peacemaker

Peacemaker,

Would he be a doner?

I think so.

:icon_joker:

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 09:51:33 PM
Hey Brandon,

No, I'm not annihilationist.. All people enjoy God's salvation in some way like those who BELIEVE enjoy His salvation. God is the Savior of all people in a temporal sense, while believers in an eternal sense. All people experience earthly benefits from the goodness of God.

can you show this to be true from the context of that verse?Where in that verse is the distinction made between eternal and temporal salvation?
If you read the verse as it stands it says what it says which is that God is the Saviour of all men , especially those that beleive . To assume different durations of salvation for the different groups is reading into the passage.
Blessings In Christ

Quote from: preistsplace on August 20, 2009, 01:16:28 AM

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 09:51:33 PM
Hey Brandon,

No, I'm not annihilationist.. All people enjoy God's salvation in some way like those who BELIEVE enjoy His salvation. God is the Savior of all people in a temporal sense, while believers in an eternal sense. All people experience earthly benefits from the goodness of God.

can you show this to be true from the context of that verse?Where in that verse is the distinction made between eternal and temporal salvation?
If you read the verse as it stands it says what it says which is that God is the Saviour of all men , especially those that beleive . To assume different durations of salvation for the different groups is reading into the passage.
Blessings In Christ

He won't be answering you. Apparently he's been banned.

He certainly showed up here with an agenda. Well wherever he is God Bless Him and may The Lord lead him to the truth.

 :cloud9: AMEN, priestsplace........Blessings.....

back at ya Card....Blessings

Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2009, 06:50:39 PM
Peacemaker, Would he be a doner? I think so. :icon_joker:

A willingness to give and receive is important for Life, is it not?  :HeartThrob: :declare:

Quote from: preistsplace on August 20, 2009, 04:45:52 AM
He certainly showed up here with an agenda. Well wherever he is God Bless Him and may The Lord lead him to the truth.

Apparently, he's shown up again with the same agenda under a different ISP and screen name: lee 100.  :sigh:

persistent fellow..well maybe now he can answer my question.

Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 15, 2009, 11:58:00 PM
Sven,

1 Cor 15:22 "For just as in Adam all die, in the same way also in Christ all will be given life."

This Scripture teaches that all "in Adam" (non-believers) die, all "in Christ" ( believers) are made alive ( born again)

Another words, all who die in their sins die "in Adam" all who believe "in Christ" are given life.. You don't want to die in Adam.

All die in adam Yes ALL..But what about the Beleivers you say???...Well the believers crucified their old man with Christ, the non believers suffer the remedial judgement of the second death.
Also your interpretation of this verse ignores the sentence structure.
The verse says all will be made alive in Christ
COG says all in Christ will be made alive
The difference there is subtle but there is a world of difference.
All die in Adam All live in Christ
Blessings in Christ
Preistsplace

Quote from: peacemaker on August 20, 2009, 06:09:10 AM

Quote from: Seth on August 19, 2009, 06:50:39 PM
Peacemaker, Would he be a doner? I think so. :icon_joker:

A willingness to give and receive is important for Life, is it not?  :HeartThrob: :declare:

Look at a healthy lake.

Good words pm.

cp

I was reminded of something the other day when watching a show on public television. One of the elements necessary for life is sulfur (aka 'brimstone')