1 Timothy 4:10 Does this teach Jesus is The Savior of everyone who has lived?

[sparrow]

According to the word of God the unrighteous are judged and punished. (Hebrews 9:27; 2 Thess 1:7-9 ; Rev 20:11-15; Rev 21:8). They go to Hades temporarily until the final judgment (Rev 20:11-15).

And then what?

[ChosenofGod37]

Sparrow,

Read Revelation 14 :10-11.

[sparrow]

Sparrow,

Read Revelation 14 :10-11.

So you believe in "eternal torment" meaning God who IS love, will allow the very creatures that HE created to suffer for all eternity?

Is this your belief?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi CoG37  :cloud9:

Did you come here thinking you would SAVE us from our belief?   :dontknow:

:omg:  Do you fail to realize that (practically) ALL here @ Tentmaker, came from the varying ORTHODOX systems of Christianity?

Yes, God's mercy endures forever. God is infinite so is His Wrath.

What a "FEAR" trip!  :thumbdown:  You are welcome to it, but don't fool yourself into thinking it will "fly" here... :pitiful:

1 John 4:8  ...God ...IS LOVE...

1 John 4:18  There is NO FEAR in ...LOVE... Perfect LOVE -- CASTETH OUT FEAR -- because FEAR hath TORMENT!  He that FEARETH is NOT made PERFECT in LOVE ...or one that TEACHES FEAR!

The myriads of those who die without knowing Jesus is God's sovereign choice.

No, because you believe God owes wicked, unrighteous sinners who don't seek Him and hate Him mercy.

GOD "owes" Himself to save us dude!  We are ALL unrighteous "sinners"... and NONE seek after God! -- Rom 3:10-12 -- Ps 14:1-3 --  (just curious, Do you have a Bible of your own?)  We are however, ALL -- His created beings, which did NOT CHOOSE to come here, nor did we CHOOSE to be ABLE to SIN... :mnah:  Which is, btw... where HIS MERCY comes in...  :laughing7:

Read  Romans 9:14-25. God owes the rebellious sinner nothing.

It amazes me that someone can read Rom 9:14-25 (one of my very FAVORITE passages in the WORD) -- And arrive at such a conclusion of it!

This passage is a VERY INVOLVED discussion unto itself, but the designation of GOD noting in verse 16 that it is NOT about our WILL, but HIS, shall indicate that our WILL is ridiculously "OVERRATED", especially concerning His WORK as POTTER...  

I don't wish to SIDETRACK and  :hijacked: ...that said, I would be happy to discuss this in another thread which TOPICALLY indicates these verses if you would like to debate its TRUE meanings...  :friendstu:  

Yet God demonstrates His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. ( Romans 5:8)

This "US", of course (conveniently) INCLUDES -- YOU, ...right?  Please! :rolleye:

Just curious, ...how long have you studied God's WORD bro?  It seems you have a pretty narrow vision of it to this point... (which is okay, I don't put you down for it!  ...we are all on the pathway of learning)

Btw... also curious as to how and WHY, you came to Tentmaker, ...did your Pastor "so&so" tell you to come "save" us believers in the "Salvation of ALL MEN"?  :laughing7:

...willieH  :icon_king:

[ChosenofGod37]

Sparrow,

No offense, but I have written my beliefs from the word of God in previous post. To avoid repeating myself please review them.

[ChosenofGod37]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

Sparrow,

No offense, but I have written my beliefs from the word of God in previous post. To avoid repeating myself please review them.

If that is your answer... then, ok.

[willieH]

Hey Willie,

Thanks for your entertaining post and warm welcome. No, I don't quote from any church beliefs. Just use sound biblical doctrine. All people receive God's common grace. Read Acts 14:15-18.

If you are "37 years old" as your handle might indicate (just guessing), KNOW that I "read" this passage when you were age 4... and several times since...

To this point, I would say you are using "deaf" doctrine, hardly Biblical... by having already ADDED to what the WORD says concerning the VERSE under discussion...

No, God does not choose everyone. That has never been His plan of salvation.

GOD's "choosing" is about those involved in the "mission", not of those that are the subjects of the "mission"... which said subjects are the beneficiaries of the mission, not chosen to accomplish its agenda.

And BTW this (above in blue) is STATED where?  According to the BIBLE that I have in my possession:

Luke 19:10 -- For the Son of Man is come to SEEK and TO SAVE, that which was LOST (the word "LOST" is APOLLUMI in the Greek, same as the "LOST" son in -- Luke 15:11-32)

Hmm... how many do you percieve are in this "LOST" condition CoG37?

It has always been Grace through faith by sovereign election from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to the nation of Israel to the remnant of Israel to the Gentiles.

Which means that GOD is lying 9 Times (that I have found) in His WORD as He notes that He is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS?  :dontknow:  Acts 10-34 -- Job 34:19 -- Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- rom 2:11 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- Prov 28:21 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Mark 12:14 

For if He were to be "electing" to SAVE some and not others, then He would thereby indicate Himself, as a RESPECTER of PERSONS... :mnah:  You can buy this garbage, ...I do not.

As I said, your vision appears narrow at this time... but let us continue to interact...

God is love. We love because He first loved us. That agape love does not go out to all His creatures. Only his elect.

Where is THIS stated IN the WORD, ...CoG37?  :dontknow:  Methinks you just repeat things that others have told you, and BELIEVE them without personally researching to find out whether or not these things are actually NOTED in the WORD...

Jesus prayed for His people (elect) in John Chapter 17. Read it. Jesus says he does not pray for the world, but for the ones God has given Him.

Maybe YOU should "read it" bro... verse 21:  "that they may be one, as Thou Father art in Me and I in Thee, that they may be one in Us, ...that THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that Thou hast sent Me"

What did PAUL say to BELIEVERS who were "going into the WORLD" CoG37?

2 Cor 5:18-19  and ALL THINGS are OF GOD who hath RECONCILED us to Himself and hath given us the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION... to wit that GOD was IN CHRIST, ...RECONCILING the WORLD to Himself, ...NOT... IMPUTING their TRESPASSES unto them, and hath COMMITTED unto Us, the WORD of ...RECONCILIATION 

Do YOU carry the WORD of RECONCILIATION to the WORLD, CoG37?  Telling THEM what the WORD SAYS?  That indeed GOD has RECONCILED the WORLD to Himself via the Cross of CHRIST? -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

In the OT do think he loved those unrighteous, wicked people(Gen 6:5) who He wiped out in the flood?

Of course He LOVED them brother -- He IS LOVE!  ...You percieve that He LOVES YOU, do you not?  Will YOU DIE?  Or do you think yourself to be the FIRST Human being to NEVER DIE?  :laughing7:

Only Noah and His family survived because they were chosen by God unto "righteousness".

Sorry, but this is short sighted CoG37 -- ALL MEN are APPOINTED to DIE... and it is because ALL are ALL SINFUL and ALL are concluded in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 

You note that Noah and his fam "survived the flood" but, ...what did Noah do immediately after his "SAVING" trip in the Ark?  READ IT -- Gen 9:21 -- Do you think this is the "RIGHTEOUSNESS" unto which Noah and his fam, was "CHOSEN"? CoG37?   :beerburp:

How about His SON Ham? -- Gen 9:22 -- Ham was part of the fam that "survived", yet he is here "peeking" in on a naked and drunken dad... whatupwidat?

And, ...oh yeah -- since you are IN the Chapter, read verse Gen 9:29 -- and "all the days of Noah were 950 years, and he D___.  You fill in the blank bro, ...Can you tell me what he did after 950 years CoG37?   :dontknow:

ALL men are APPOINTED to DIE, brother CoG37 -- Heb 9:27 -- These met their death (in the flood) at THEIR APPOINTMENT to it... and it served as demonstration that SINFUL vessels ALL DIE... Noah and his family did not DIE in the FLOOD, but they DID DIE... for the very same REASON the "Flood victims" died... They were SINNERS... APPOINTED to DEATH!

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join.

Unfortunately, ...THAT (social club) is EXACTLY what it is...  :sigh:

You have to be born into the family of God to be His children.( Jn 3:3). And that comes by sovereign election( John 6:44 ; Eph 1:3-5; Phil 1:29)  :winkgrin: :thumbsup:

Well-well... If it is HIS ELECTION (which I agree it IS), then MAN has NOTHING to do with it, eh?  To include the narrow-minded vision of any given man, "accepting" it -- :dontknow:

He IN DUE TIME will TESTIFY (the election of) His RANSOM for ALL -- READ IT CoG37:

1 Tim 2:3-6 -- CHRIST ...IS... the Savior of ALL MEN, ransomed for ALL to be ...TESTIFIED,  ...IN due time...

...willieH  :winkgrin:

[reFORMer]

Christianity is not some social club that everyone can join.

Unfortunately, ...THAT (social club) is EXACTLY what it is...  :sigh:

A very, VERY under-acknowledged fact.  Of course, whatever the writer meant by the term "Christianity" is for him/her to define.

Joshua 5:13-15 (AV)...
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

The reason He was to take off his shoes was because there was not anything protecting him from his environment.  Nothing can protect you from God.  With the Prince or Chief of the multitudes of IEUE His Divine Presence was so intensified all there was holy and in a realm beyond life or death.

Some of us have endured much persecution to stand with Jesus and His word.  That is not the same as "Christianity," the history of which, at least Institutional Christianity, represents Mystery Babylon to my understanding.  There were people wholly for the Lord across the centuries, like the earliest Church, before what's been called "The Church of the Bishops" and Constantine a little later, as well as outsiders like the Montanists, the Lolliards, the anabaptists...these were not the ones who wrote the histories of their day.  Most of us don't know enough to even mention more than a movement or two.  The Pope ordered them persecuted and murdered.  His minions burned the vernacular Scripture portions, proof of their heresy, along with their copiers.  Today Institutional Christianity, not only demoninational, but most of the independent steeple houses also, are apostate, their doctrines and practices learned from Babylon.

His sword was drawn...

[reFORMer]

ChosenofGod37,

What I find significant about your use of the Bible is something I've found very hard to get the people who do it to recognize.  I think it is because of spiritual bondage described by the apostle when he speaks of those, "...in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them." (2 Co 4:4, CLT)  What is it about your use of the Bible I'm referring to?  You are unable to say your doctrine by directly quoting the words as written.  For as prejudiced as the translations have been made by those who paid for them that is saying something.  Do you notice how you cannot let the word speak for itself?  You have to insert your modifiers.  You wouldn't have to do this if it ever actually said what you are trying to make it mean.

Make your confessions of faith with the actual words God chose to make His revelation known, verifying from the original languages.


P.S. Someone a while back posted here in tentmaker examples from the word in all translations they could and found none to back up your re-stating something other than what is written for 1 Co 15:22, "...as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (AV)  It does NOT say, "...all in Christ shall be made alive."  As well, the equivalence of, "Even so," or, as CLT has, "Thus also," would be destroyed if that change is introduced.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good posts Willie and reFormer.........and Chosen, as Willie said, none of us here were "taught" this or "influenced" by others in any way to believe this. A sovereign God REVEALED His will in this mystery to us, calling us out of the bondages of man's carnal mind interpretations of the scriptures, which are SPIRIT (the scriptures) in origin. Blessings to you and welcome to Tent..........

[peacemaker]

"If you want to walk on water, you've got to get out of the boat."

peacemaker

[sparrow]

Sparrow,

No offense, but I have written my beliefs from the word of God in previous post. To avoid repeating myself please review them.

I'm coming back to this because I am wondering why you can't come out and say what you believe? This "I have written my beliefs in a previous post..." seems very weak to me.

I would like to know if you believe that God created human beings only to allow that their final fate be to suffer tortures for all eternity without ceasing..?? Is that what you believe? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Shadow]

It's par for the course when an ETer gets a bee in their bonnet and decided to come on here and imply that everyone else on here is deceived and that they alone are special to the vast exclusion of everyone else, and totally overlooking the fact that perhaps people on here and Gary Amirault sees UR because they have earnestly sought the truth for themselves

Don't look for a straight answer from these people with the ET mindsetas they like to pussyfoot around and evade the issue wherever possible :thumbdown:,

I'd like to make a suggestion if I may, I don't see an "Ignore User" feature on this board, could the board management perhaps consider installing such a feature on this board so that those of us that wish to utilize this feature can do so, there are some of us with issues that get triggered off whenever someone of the ET mindset comes on here and tries to browbeat everyone into their own way of thinking, many of us have come here to escape from the effects that doctrine has had on us

Have looked and found that this feature can be installed and can be downloaded from HERE

Great posts WillieH and Reformer :thumbsup:

[ChosenofGod37]

Shadow,

Sorry you feel that way. Just having respectable discussions about UR. Iron sharpens Iron when you have an disagreement and discuss it respectfully. Why try to run someone off or Ignore because they don't believe the same as you? How do you gain from that? I have disrespected no one on this forum with my posts and responses.

[claypot]

Shadow,

Sorry you feel that way. Just having respectable discussions about UR. Iron sharpens Iron when you have an disagreement and discuss it respectfully. Why try to run someone off or Ignore because they don't believe the same as you? How do you gain from that? I have disrespected no one on this forum with my posts and responses.

You did so to me when you put words in my mouth so to speak. But I have let it pass in the hopes we can discuss in a proper manner. Even though you and I may not move from our positions, others who read these discourses may gain from reading and interacting and as the Holy Spirit pleases, truth will come forth as Lazuras from the grave.

cp

[sparrow]

Ok, I guess I'll do something productive here  :knitting:  while I wait.

[claypot]

Sparrow, you're funny!!!!!!

In Chosens defense, I think he has answered and I think you know his answer but you are making a point and I see it clearly.

Keep fighting the good fight, Sis. You're a bright light in a dark world and I appreciate you!

cp

[Cardinal]

Ok, I guess I'll do something productive here  :knitting:  while I wait.

:cloud9: roflol......... :laughing7:

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey Sparrow,

No, just the devil, his demons and human beings that reject the only provision for forgiveness of sin, Jesus Christ.

Sparrow Read Romans 9:14-25. Focus on versus 19-25.

[sparrow]

Hey Chosen,

Ok I read. I focused. How does that relate to your idea of God torturing some human beings for all eternity? I believe you are perhaps, misunderstanding these verses.

[ChosenofGod37]

Sparrow,

Anything is possible, Sparrow. Perhaps it is you who is misunderstanding these verses. Read Romans 9:27. God only saves the remnant of Israel, not all of them.

[claypot]

Sparrow,

Anything is possible, Sparrow. Perhaps it is you who is misunderstanding these verses. Read Romans 9:27. God only saves the remnant of Israel, not all of them.

Weird I read in the Bible Romans 11.26 And so all Israel  shall be saved: as it is written.

Now what is your take on that Chosen?

Perhaps it is you who are ignoring certain verses in order to maintain your belief system? Just wondering.

cp

[ChosenofGod37]

Cp,

Read the whole chapter 11 of Romans, Cp. focus on verses 4-10

Romans 11:26 teaches all the elect Jewish people alive at the end of the Tribulation, not the believing remnant of Jews within the church during this church age.

[Beloved Servant]

Weymouth:

2:29 But the true Jew is one inwardly, and true circumcision is heart-circumcision--not literal, but spiritual; and such people receive praise not from men, but from God.