1 Thessalonians 5:23 breaks Eternal Damnation VERY SUPER EASILY using KJV

[BruceLeeJR]

Since the lake of fire in the ET view is a created thing, and every created thing is sustained and upheld by the power of Jesus Christ, then it follows that ET people are saying in essence that God is WILLFULLY maintaining the means of torture for those he loves. :2c:

Then that would mean the verses of the soul make absolutely 0 sense.
That also means 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 10:9, Philippians 2:10-11 make absolutely 0 sense.

[BruceLeeJR]

Better yet, what is the argument they have of Eternal Damnation that complements the verses about the soul/spirit/body and the confession of Jesus being Lord by the Holy Spirit ???

[misszoolander]

redhotmagma & misszoolander

I think it is abundantly clear that if you take the Spirit of God OR the human spirit that comes FROM God Almighty Himself OUT of the equation of the human soul... Eternal Damnation IS NOT LOGICALLY POSSIBLE. Someone CANNOT burn for eternity in the lake of fire with a Spirit that COMES from God Himself. The Holy Spirit and the entire concept of "spirit belong to him as that is the ONLY way He gives life to a being.

Again, if you take the human spirit out of the equation (I've pointed it out many times), then you take away human consciousness aka the soul is unconscious. Therefore if you look at the Eternal Damnation framework... go ahead and refer to how a soul is made... you will clearly see it is broken, a chain reaction that breaks Scripture.

It is also made VERY VERY VERY clear that God SWORE TO HIMSELF that HE SWORE to bring ALL to Him. What is more powerful, mans rejection of God or His desire for you ?

And rehotmagma thank you for pointing that out, that makes it even MORE CLEAR that Eternal Damnation is not possible since the breath is the spirit of life, you cannot be conscious in an eternal lake of fire, eternally dying since you will simultaneously be eternally gaining life which makes absolutely 0 sense.

Essentially, what this means is that while someone is burning in an eternal lake of fire, the spirit of God is in them. -_-

The Father will never force, He will bring a soul to the point of willingness, aching to confess with an eagerness JESUS IS LORD. And I say ain't God GOOD! :dsunny:

Exactly.



edi: I will modify my first post with the arguments in this thread to put in there

I agree? I never disagreed brother?  :Peace2:

[VineBranch]

Hi Bruce:

When you explain someone the distinct difference between Spirit and Soul... the Eternal Damnation doctrine will be UNDENIABLY SHATTERED. This will TRAP a non-UR dead in their tracks.

It has been my observation that it won't.  There is not such thing as an irrefutable argument.  Impeccable logic really doesn't convince anyone outside a debate team, and a lot of times, not even then.  I once had a lady tell me this:  "You are absolutely right, your logic is sound, but I choose to believe what I did when I came in."  When this happened, I remember being so depressed I almost teared-up.  She had shown me a truth:  there are certain things to which people don't like to respond, among them ... people don't like to be bullied, or trapped, or set-up, or made to feel like they are forced - emotionally, physically, or intellectually.

It had such a profound affect on me that I named the principle after the lady.  It will forever in my mind be the Jennifer effect.  People will believe what they choose, even when your argument is flawless.  J. Vernon McGee said once that if you defeat a man intellectually, you make an enemy for life.  I think he was right.

The logic also actually defeats itself as well.

When you explain someone the distinct difference between Spirit and Soul... the Eternal Damnation doctrine will be UNDENIABLY SHATTERED. This will TRAP a non-UR dead in their tracks.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 say spirit and soul and body meaning they are 3 distinct entities. This verse will IMMEDIATELY dismantle the Eternal Damnation Hell mindset without a shadow of a doubt. There is a PERFECTLY sound and logical explanation on why 1 Thessalonians 5:23 will eviscerate Eternal Damnation ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT QUESTION and INEVITABLY leads to Eternal Damnation. No matter the Google searches or what CARM, gotquestions.org, av1611.org etc or ANYONE says.. this is a SURE-FIRE way to DEMOLISH Eternal Damnation mindset.

Scripture says it is impossible to please God without faith. If you DEMOLISH their mindset, and prove something right without a shadow of a doubt, they don't need faith.

I've seen God do this so many times.  I keep telling Him, just a little further and your existence become undeniable and they will be forced to accept you exist.  He keeps somehow thinking He knows best ... what can you do?

I have found that the people who have had the most influence on what I believe are those people who love me, not those people who use me as a punching bag.

[Lazarus Short]

VB is right.  There are intellectual issues, logic, theology...and then there is human psychology.  If one is steeped in falsehood, the Truth will induce cognitive dissonance, a sort of mental confusion as the issues try to sort themselves out.  Unless you make your position VERY VERY attractive, other people will just scurry back to their comfort zones faster than you can say "Reconciliation." 

As Spock said, "Logic is only the beginning of wisdom."  Evangelists know this all too well - you must appeal to peoples' intellect, and also to their emotions.

I recall a speech teacher I had in college in the late 1960's - he told us that his uncle back in Germany, in the 1930's, had gone to a National Socialist rally out of curiosity.  The uncle was Jewish, you see.  Hitler started speaking, and got the crowd wound up.  He began to chant, "Destroy the Jews!"  The crowd chanted with him, and the uncle joined in, in spite of himself.  The event, and his response, so shook him that he left Germany.  That is what a skilled orator can do, and we must match that kind of skill, at least a little, if we are to convince people.  I'd rather have used a more positive example, but that's what came to mind.

[BruceLeeJR]

Thanks VB & LS... I agree with you guys and I know ALOT about this because I've tried many time and people don't want to face the truth.

I also know that people can't let go of their traditions, heck I had a VERY hard time letting go of the Eternal Damnation mindset because I was so scared if I let that go... I would go to Hell. So I prayed and prayed and prayed for God to show me the truth and the sound COMFORTING logic presented to me while confirming it from multiple sources and the sources confirming their sources and their sources confirming their sources really hit me.

What happened was, being a Baptist and scared to go to Hell... I looked at Eternal Damnation and Ultimate Reconciliation and compared the 2.

(keep in mind I have NEVER done any of this before becoming a URist)

I looked at both history.
I looked at both Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek.
I looked at the context of Scripture and made sure it resonated and complemented eachother.

What I found was, when presented with rock-solid evidence of 1 component of Scripture (like the soul).... it clearly was NOT fitting the end result component. It showed me that God is not the same yesterday, today and forever. God (of all entities) would be logical.(logic/logos being The Word of God ) So I decided to make sure NOTHING broke it. UR fits too perfectly.

And when I read " Hell is a mistranslation" by Marc Speed it cleared up I'd say 99% ambiguity in Scripture. But I DO NOT like talking... I want to present the information I've absorbed in a way that is appealing.


I see what people have a hard time with is CHERRY PICKING & INTERPRETATION. I think that is the #1 ultimate problem because they cherry pick, the interpretation is lost and later on where mainstream Christians will ALWAYS use the scapegoat of saying "We don't know everything." or something similar.

I clearly understand we don't know everything... but when Scripture blatantly contradicts itself in the face of the listener/reader, there is something wrong.

And I can see what happens alot is that, if something does not fit what they believe, they mangle the words to fit it by finding loop holes and throwing in philosophical ideas.

I want to try to lay out certain vital components of Scripture that resonate with eachother... I think that will be WAY easier because then we will have an easier time interpreting the smaller things very strictly rather than loosely.


Also the sure-fire way of interpreting is the literal-grammatical-historical method that FORCES one to come to only one logical conclusion. I want to present that in my lay out but that is coming soon.

[Lazarus Short]

OK, Bruce, I see that logic and proofs worked well for you.  Most people will NOT take that kind of time - what about them?  You need to develop a strategy, and that may just lie outside your core competency.  I confess, I'm not too able in that area, either.  What we need is a Huey Long of UR!

[BruceLeeJR]

I'll try my best then and if they don't take that time then I have an obligation to try to do it then. I just found this site and I love it. If you can see I am ignorant on something, point it out (if you don't mind but if you do then I'll eventually figure it out lol). I hate being ignorant and talking without evidence.

But anyway, I'll keep updating the original post !!!

[BruceLeeJR]

And you guys if there was a like button like on FaceBook, I would push it on your guys posts lol

[Lazarus Short]

And you guys if there was a like button like on FaceBook, I would push it on your guys posts lol

We do have this:   :iagree:

Also, don't forget the "[more]" button, to the lower left of the emoticons - I was here for months, and wondered - where in the world? - other people were getting those emoticons I did not have access to... :doh:

[BruceLeeJR]

Laz, I don't see the "like" button anywhere. Do I need to meet certain conditions before I can see it ? (like a certain # of posts, placed in a certain group or something like that) ???


(http://img1.uploadscreenshot.com/images/orig/1/2803293431-orig.jpg)

[Lazarus Short]

Haven't seen a "like" button, except on F___book. 

[VineBranch]

Bruce, Dude (I know how to use that word now):  You can't just change your post after we've responded to it, that's revisionism. :eek:

[VineBranch]

Thanks VB & LS... I agree with you guys and I know ALOT about this because I've tried many time and people don't want to face the truth.

Bruce, I get it.  Here IMO is the thing.  Just for a moment imagine you are the people to whom you are speaking.  Hear yourself say, "You don't want to face the truth; I've tried and you guys are wrong and I am right and I will (because I know things and you don't) give you the truth."  Now, how do you respond to someone who has just called you stupid?  Do you slap yourself upside the head and say "Oh my God, how could I have been so blind"?  Or do you shrink from the attack and see but one more self absorbed false prophet demanding his own way?  It's about love, not attack.  Your metaphors seem quite martial, maybe that's less then a wonderful thing?  Maybe?

[Lazarus Short]

It's easier to attract a fly with honey, than with vinegar.



Oh, by the way, time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.

[VineBranch]

Oh, by the way, time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.

With all due respect to Hesakiah  :punish:

[BruceLeeJR]

Bruce, Dude (I know how to use that word now):  You can't just change your post after we've responded to it, that's revisionism. :eek:

Well, historical revisionism is a reinterpretation but I'm not doing that. I'm still coming from the same view  :URWelcome: