1 Thessalonians 5:23 breaks Eternal Damnation VERY SUPER EASILY using KJV

[BruceLeeJR]

While I write any of this..... refer to 2 Timothy 3:16, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, 2 Corinthians 13:5 , Thank you

Spirit + Body = Soul
Spirit - Body = Dead

When you explain someone the distinct difference between Spirit and Soul... the Eternal Damnation doctrine will be UNDENIABLY SHATTERED. This will TRAP a non-UR dead in their tracks.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 say spirit and soul and body meaning they are 3 distinct entities. This verse will IMMEDIATELY dismantle the Eternal Damnation Hell mindset without a shadow of a doubt. There is a PERFECTLY sound and logical explanation on why 1 Thessalonians 5:23 will eviscerate Eternal Damnation ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT QUESTION and INEVITABLY leads to Eternal Damnation. No matter the Google searches or what CARM, gotquestions.org, av1611.org etc or ANYONE says.. this is a SURE-FIRE way to DEMOLISH Eternal Damnation mindset.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Body:
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Genesis 2:7
Genesis 3:19
Ecclesiastes 12:7

Spirit: < comes DIRECTLY from God
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Genesis 2:7
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Psalms 31:5
Psalms 146:4
Luke 23:46

Soul(consciousness):
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Genesis 2:7
Psalms 16:10
Acts 2:27

Unseen/Hades/Hell:
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Psalms 6:5 & Ecclesiastes 9:5 & Psalms 115:17
Psalms 16:10
Acts 2:27

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is [immortal]eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If Eternal Damnation is true and unbelievers are dying forever, death is not swalloed up in victory because there is STILL sin SINCE the WAGES of sin IS death.

-First, point out 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and ask why spirit, soul and body are used separately.
-Use the verses above that complement eachother to distinguish the difference.
-once you do that proceed below for saying/confessing/swearing with the Holy Spirit

INEVITABLE(NOT forceful) Confession with Holy Spirit:
Philippians 2:10-11 < EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING (even unbelievers) bowing & confessing that Jesus is Lord
Romans 10:9 < confessing that Jesus is Lord will save you
1 Corinthians 12:3 < NO MAN CAN SAY/CONFESS THAT JESUS IS LORD BUT BY HOLY SPIRIT
Romans 14:11
Isaiah 45:23
1 Timothy 4:10

If they have a body and soul that is being burned forever, THEY MUST HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT because the HOLY SPIRIT+BODY = SOUL. Otherwise while they are in Hell burning , THEY HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH THEM,EVENTUALLY WILL CONFESS AND ARE SAVED WHILE FOREVER BURNING IN HELL.. How can they confess or even swear if they cannot even simply say it ? Not only that, how can you confess/swear it while simultaneously being burnt to a crisp? Just look at the powerful language that is used.

^^^^^ This is ALL YOU NEED in order to DESTROY the Eternal Damnation mindset. ^^^^^

To believe in Eternal Damnation would mean:
-The people burning forever were more powerful than Jesus Himself (Luke 23:46)
-They have the Holy Spirit IN them
-They are saved because they will inevitably confess Jesus is Lord while still burning forever
-To call the second death eternal damnation means they are simultaneously eternally gaining life. (Philippians 1:21)
-To call the second death eternal damnation means Death was not swallowed up and eternally exists. (1 Corinthians 15:54)
-To take away the Holy Spirit means to take away consciousness.
-To take away consciousness means you cannot experience Hell.
-Jesus is NOT the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8)
-The Word of GOD DOES NOT endureth forever. (1Peter 1:25)
-The KJV is no good. (2 Corinthians 3:6)
-Test this, (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
-THE LIST GOES ON AND ON...............

Therefore, the only logical conclusion were are forced to interpret is that eternally damned would become believers which puts Eternal Damnation to EVERLASTING SHAME.

People against UR:http://www.1john57.com/prooftext.htm

This website list A SMALL AMOUNT of verses that prove UR. The verses that BREAK COMPLETELY the Eternal Damnation doctrine ARE NOT even listed !!!!

Loose interpretations refuted:
Forced Confession

Romans 10:11
For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."

1. If it is forced confession then 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 10:9, Philippians 2:10-11 make absolutely 0 sense.
(Someone cannot be forced to believe in their own heart that Jesus is Lord UNLESS they have the Holy Spirit;
they will not be saved HENCE the emphasis of the word believers distinguishing them from unbelievers. Christians understand this.)

2. To call it a forceful confession AND STILL be thrown into the "eternal lake of fire" means that the verses about the human soul.. MAKE 0 SENSE.

3.It also CLEARLY explains why Scripture REPEATEDLY refers to death as sleep... because when you are asleep, you are unconscious.

4. You also break Romans 1:19-20. Are we made by God ? is God manifest in us ?
You would think that when the time of confession comes for EVERY BEING in existence, that Romans 1:19-20 speaks truth. Pay attention to "without excuse".... that speaks pretty plainly about the time of confession indicating that there is no excuse to deny God's glory.

5. Psalm 19:1-4 reveals God to us through nature; at the time of confession, Psalm 19:3 is but a speck in the sand.

6. Look at unbelievers, you cannot be FORCED to believe something so why would they be FORCED to confess to something they DO NOT believe in?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.lovewins.us/bible/-Diaglott-YLT-Rotherham-Twentieth_Century-WNT-CLV-ECB-VGNT-JMNT-KJV-Darby-ASV-WEB-new-KJV_Strongs-IGNT-IHOT/1%20Corinthians%2012:3

1 Corinthians 12:3

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


^^^^The site above gives ALL TRANSLATIONS from ALL Bibles and the context is UNIVERSAL There is even the Ancient Hebrew at the bottom that is consistent with English.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Holy Spirit vs human spirit

1. Genesis 2:7 speak for itself. God BREATHED life into man. and thus became a living soul. God gave Adam life with His breath. What is the breath of God ? It is the Spirit of God. God breathed into man His own Spirit. Th spirit whether a believer or unbeliever, COMES from the Spirit of God Himself. It's a slice of Himself implemented in us, he didn't grab it form some other entity eternally existed along side of Him. It was from Him. A slice of Himself is not left in an eternally tormenting fire. (This would make PERFECT sense when thinking about the Trinity)

Source: A KJV-Only site will answer this excellent question for you. http://www.gotquestions.org/breath-of-life.html

2. This also explains why conscious spirit beings (demons etc) DO NOT NEED A HUMAN BODY. Because they are SPIRIT BEINGS that are already conscious because they are SPIRIT.


It also clearly explains why the "unseen" or "hell" is exactly that, UNSEEN because you CANNOT see the soul.

I am still adding to clear up any ambiguity or interpretation.

[Lazarus Short]

 :iagree:

Well said!  I like your use of font size and color too - it draws the eye where you want it drawn in your presentation.  :URWelcome:

[shawn]

Not sure i follow the logic.  Are you saying those without the Holy Spirit are without a soul?  They are without a conscience?  Not sure i follow the logic.

Also, not sure it's our job to "trap" or crush etc fellow believers ...or anyone for that matter.  The truth speaks for itself.  Let he with ears...

[Lazarus Short]

Not sure i follow the logic.  Are you saying those without the Holy Spirit are without a soul?  They are without a conscience?  Not sure i follow the logic.

Also, not sure it's our job to "trap" or crush etc fellow believers ...or anyone for that matter.  The truth speaks for itself.  Let he with ears...

It confused me at first too, but I think Bruce is saying that conscious torment in a fiery Hell is impossible because they cannot have God's spirit in them.  Being dead, the spirit is gone and Soul minus Spirit is a lifeless, dead body.  Like so:

Body + Spirit = Soul (Living Person)

Soul - Spirit = lifeless Body

Now who is going to defend the idea of the dead having God's Spirit in them in Hell?  No one, I think, at least with a straight face.  Without the Spirit, they cannot be alive, conscious, or even aware of Hell, and what is the point?  It makes no sense, and is totally indefensible, when you look at it in Bruce's manner.  The concept of the Immortal Soul does not hold up, either...

[ded2daworld]

I think he's saying that one cannot say Jesus is Lord WITHOUT the Holy Spirit
YET Every knee shall bow and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord to the GLORY of God the Father;
So it will ot be a forced confession (no glory in that) but one enabled by the Holy Spirit now in the new believer. :Chinscratch: :Peace2:

[jabcat]

It's something I apparently have thought was more important than those I've tried to express it to LOL.  But I saw a literal translation once that said IN the Holy Spirit.  As in, not just "by" - which ET believers can argue means it's forced "so it doesn't count".  :(    But if it's "no man can confess except IN the Holy Spirit", IMO, that is significant.   :2c:

[ded2daworld]

and I think it's significant about the "to the glory of God"
If it's forced - it's an insult to the love of God and certainly doesn't give him glory. :Chinscratch:

[Lazarus Short]

I think he's saying that one cannot say Jesus is Lord WITHOUT the Holy Spirit
YET Every knee shall bow and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord to the GLORY of God the Father;
So it will ot be a forced confession (no glory in that) but one enabled by the Holy Spirit now in the new believer. :Chinscratch: :Peace2:

Yes, he did say that too - it's a multi-faceted subject.  When you take ET to its logical conclusion, it's absurd.

[BruceLeeJR]

ded,


Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

One cannot be forced to believe in thine heart. This REALLY does NOT look forced.

[Lazarus Short]

ded,


Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

One cannot be forced to believe in thine heart. This REALLY does NOT look forced.

The question of forced worship and forced belief was answered in the Garden, was it not?  God told Adam & Eve to be fruitful and multiply, eat this, don't eat that, etc.  I don't recall any command at that time to worship Him or to believe - God just laid it out, and left the rest to us.  No, I'm not necessarily pushing free will here.  I'm just going with how the story reads.  Yes, I know worship and sacrifice came later - complicated, as usual.

[BruceLeeJR]

Further, if they are being Eternally Damned and are awake/conscious/have a soul... then this TOTALLY contradicts every verse of how the soul is made, not only that it will contradict the resurrections, it will contradict death, it will contradict John 3:13 .... I'll gather everything I learned about UR relating to this subject and show you how everything works in perfect harmony with one another and how the biblical powerhouses(David, Solomon, Paul, Jesus etc) NEVER contradicted eachother.

If one tries to take the Holy Spirit away, consciousness ceases.
One CANNOT be Eternally Damned BECAUSE of EVENTUAL confession, not forced. This is why Gods plan is perfectly timed out and come to pass. EVERYTHING eventually COMES to Him.


To put this more strongly... NOBODY can even SAY "Jesus is Lord" but by the Holy Spirit. This is ONLY reinforced IMMENSELY by using STRONGER language in:

Philippians 2:10-11
Romans 10:9
Romans 14:11
Isaiah 45:23 < this one says SWEAR !!!

I also believe 1 Timothy 4:10 (on the logo) speaks very plainly for itself. God saves ALL mean ESPECIALLY those that believe. If the word especially is there then OBVIOUSLY he is saving others BESIDES BELIEVERS. Because God IS the Savior of all men. Notice the IS and especially are used in the same sentence.

This of course is all coming from the KJV, the real truth spills when you read a No Hell bible.

[ded2daworld]

Bruce - I know it's not forced. Like Jabcat said, ET'ers use the lame interpretation that God is forcing sinners to acknowledge Him before He throws them in a fiery torment forever.
My point is that it certainly does not give Glory to God.
This is a little crude but forced "love" is rape and gives no one glory.

[BruceLeeJR]

Ded (not going against what your saying but of Eternal  Damnation concept),

IF it is forced confession... then 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 10:9, Philippians 2:10-11 make absolutely 0 sense.

(Someone cannot be forced to believe in their own heart that Jesus is Lord UNLESS they have the Holy Spirit; they will not be saved HENCE the emphasis of the word believers distinguishing them from unbelievers. Christians understand this.)

So if what this argument really comes down too is a supposed "forceful confession", it can EASILY be refuted. I will update the post for verses clearing up any ambiguity.

ALSO, to call it a forceful confession and still be thrown into the "eternal lake of fire" means that the verses about the human soul.. MAKE 0 SENSE.

This is a chain reaction, it will break verse by verse when you reference the soul.

It also CLEARLY explains why Scripture REPEATEDLY refers to death as sleep... because when you are asleep, you are unconscious.

Shawn, Genesis 2:7 speak for itself. God BREATHED life into man. and thus became a living soul.

A KJV-only site will answer this for you: http://www.gotquestions.org/breath-of-life.html

God gave Adam life with His breath. What is the breath of God ? It is the Spirit of God.

Further proof that "forceful confession: goes right out the door using a KJV-only source:
http://www.gotquestions.org/names-Holy-Spirit.html

Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

What does this mean to swear ? To make a solemn/wholeheartedly declaration that Jesus is Lord and remember they can't even utter the words Jesus is Lord UNLESS they are filled with the Holy Spirit.

You cannot force someone to swear in thine heart. Swearing is an oath of loyalty. This indicates the intent of your heart - if you are not loyal in your heart then you cannot truthfully swear.

Notice God Himself swears that every one will swear to Him. I don't think He is saying they will all swear a fake oath or lie to him. He is saying that everyone will truthfully be loyal to God and give Him allegiance.



All of this refutes the idea of Eternal Death or Annihilationism as well.

[Lazarus Short]

This is a little crude but forced "love" is rape and gives no one glory.

It would make the call of God the equivalent of "Just get in the car, OK?"  Absurd.

[misszoolander]

If one was to bow down and confess that Christ is Lord, but secretly hold animosity towards Christ then that is false worship, which God would not accept. God doesn't get anything out of false lies, he does not accept grudgingly responses. 

[Lazarus Short]

If one was to bow down and confess that Christ is Lord, but secretly hold animosity towards Christ then that is false worship, which God would not accept. God doesn't get anything out of false lies, he does not accept grudgingly responses.

...and He can't very well be All in all.

[redhotmagma]

Bruce just a heads up, and this may not change anything for your argument, but the word used for breath in Gen 2 is Nashamah H5397.  That is more like an animating breath.  It is in all living things that breathe. 

The word used for the Holy Spirit in the OT (most of the time?) is Ruwach H7307.

We see the words used together in Gen 7:22 most translations read "everything that has the breath of life", but the literal hebrew says "everything that has the breath of the spirit of life".

IMO the Holy Spirit wasn't breathed into Adam. 

[micah7:9]

The Father will never force, He will bring a soul to the point of willingness, aching to confess with an eagerness JESUS IS LORD. And I say ain't God GOOD! :dsunny:

[BruceLeeJR]

redhotmagma & misszoolander

I think it is abundantly clear that if you take the Spirit of God OR the human spirit that comes FROM God Almighty Himself OUT of the equation of the human soul... Eternal Damnation IS NOT LOGICALLY POSSIBLE. Someone CANNOT burn for eternity in the lake of fire with a Spirit that COMES from God Himself. The Holy Spirit and the entire concept of "spirit belong to him as that is the ONLY way He gives life to a being.

Again, if you take the human spirit out of the equation (I've pointed it out many times), then you take away human consciousness aka the soul is unconscious. Therefore if you look at the Eternal Damnation framework... go ahead and refer to how a soul is made... you will clearly see it is broken, a chain reaction that breaks Scripture.

It is also made VERY VERY VERY clear that God SWORE TO HIMSELF that HE SWORE to bring ALL to Him. What is more powerful, mans rejection of God or His desire for you ?

And rehotmagma thank you for pointing that out, that makes it even MORE CLEAR that Eternal Damnation is not possible since the breath is the spirit of life, you cannot be conscious in an eternal lake of fire, eternally dying since you will simultaneously be eternally gaining life which makes absolutely 0 sense.

Essentially, what this means is that while someone is burning in an eternal lake of fire, the spirit of God is in them. -_-

The Father will never force, He will bring a soul to the point of willingness, aching to confess with an eagerness JESUS IS LORD. And I say ain't God GOOD! :dsunny:

Exactly.



edi: I will modify my first post with the arguments in this thread to put in there

[redhotmagma]

Actually I don think it means the breath is the spirit of life but from the spirit of life. Either way I agree with your argument.

[BruceLeeJR]

It's all good. The discussion allows me to find any loopholes in the argument lol and close it up with Scripture.

[redhotmagma]

Now this might have implications for the trinity doctrine...

[BruceLeeJR]

Alright, then I will have to address Trinity in the original post. Which should be fine since we can look exactly how the soul is made, the soul resonates throughout Scripture. Because everything has to complement eachother.

[redhotmagma]

Sorry that was just a general comment about the phrase. I don't think it need be a part of your argument.

[ded2daworld]

Since the lake of fire in the ET view is a created thing, and every created thing is sustained and upheld by the power of Jesus Christ, then it follows that ET people are saying in essence that God is WILLFULLY maintaining the means of torture for those he loves. :2c: