Tentmaker Forum

I learned this marvelous revelation of 1 John a while ago.  Athough, I do not believe in UR, I still care for people's eternal salvation. There is nothing more important than your eternal salvation. I would like to pass this revelation on to this forum.

The basics of Christianity : Happiness (1 John 1:4) Holiness (1 John 2:1) Security(1 John 5:13) When True faith, Obedience, and love operate together, they result in Happiness, Holiness, and Assurance. True Faith, Obedience, and Love constitute the evidence of a True Christian. Are you going to pass the test? Lets see.

First Test: Do you walk in the Light? (1 John 1:6)

Second Test: Do you admit and confess sin? (1 John 1:8-9)

Third Test : Are you Obedient? ( 1 John 2:3-5)

Fourth Test: Do you imitate Christ? (1 John 2:6)

Fifth Test: Do you love others? ( 1 John 2:9)

Six Test : Do you love the world? Your relationship with the world. (1 John 2:15-17)

Seventh Test: Does Christ Righteousness show in you? ( 1 John 2:29)

How did you do? Did you pass the test? If not, understand your guilt by sinning against God by continually breaking His 10 commandments, His Holy Moral Standard. ( Rom 3:19) Repent (change of mind) and Believe in your heart on the Lord Jesus for your eternal salvation. I pray for those who failed the test that God grant you the gift of repentance and faith to believe on His son Jesus for true eternal salvation. God bless.  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

Deja vu

2C 13:9 For we are rejoicing whenever we'  may be weak, yet you'  may be powerful. Now this are we wishing also: your adjustment.


:boyheart: :boyheart: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:  :cloud9:

The basics of Christianity--nice, I enjoyed that.




24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

--Rom 3

9 Is that blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have been saying that God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God. 10 When did it happen? Was it after Abraham was circumcised, or before? It was before he was circumcised, not after! 11 He was circumcised as a sign of the covenant God had made with him. It showed that his faith had made him right with God before he was circumcised.

   So Abraham is the father of all believers who have not been circumcised. God accepts their faith. So their faith makes them right with him. 12 Abraham is also the father of the circumcised who believe. So just being circumcised is not enough. Those who are circumcised must also follow the steps of our father Abraham. He had faith before he was circumcised.

13 Abraham and his family received a promise. God promised that Abraham would receive the world. It would not come to him because he obeyed the law. It would come because of his faith, which made him right with God.

14 Do those who obey the law receive the promise? If they do, faith would have no value. God's promise would be worthless. 15 The law brings God's anger. Where there is no law, the law can't be broken.

16 The promise is based on God's grace. The promise comes by faith. All of Abraham's children will certainly receive the promise. And it is not only for those who are ruled by the law. Those who have the same faith that Abraham had are also included. He is the father of us all.

--Rom 4

I am a Gentile and don't follow Commandments of men. Nor do I follow any Law of any kind sent down by the A. John.

I only confess to God when I sin

Lee Damboise II

And I pray that 5 pm comes when we will get some relief from your posts for about 3 hours at least.

Ron

Of course, salvation is  by grace through faith. Not by the law. But the law is a schoolmaster to lead to Christ.  (Gal 3:24). Jesus fulfilled the law for all who believe in Him..he did not abolish the law. ( Matthew 5:17-18) The judicial and Ceremonial laws no long apply( because of Jesus sacrifice) but the Moral law is still binding for today.  (Romans 3:19)19And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God.  All the World is accountable to God by his Moral law. Both Jew and Gentile are under Sin. ( Rom 3:9)
:HeartThrob: :boyheart:

Can you give me a few examples of this (Moral Law) you believe in, just a few will do.

Lee Damboise II     [not lee100]

QuoteFirst Test: Do you walk in the Light? (1 John 1:6)

Second Test: Do you admit and confess sin? (1 John 1:8-9)

Third Test : Are you Obedient? ( 1 John 2:3-5)

Fourth Test: Do you imitate Christ? (1 John 2:6)

Fifth Test: Do you love others? ( 1 John 2:9)

Six Test : Do you love the world? Your relationship with the world. (1 John 2:15-17)

Seventh Test: Does Christ Righteousness show in you? ( 1 John 2:29)

How did you do? Did you pass the test? If not, understand your guilt by sinning against God by continually breaking His 10 commandments, His Holy Moral Standard.

Hi TC10,
There is some conflict in your "test." It appears to me (which is why I hope to clarify) that you are putting new wine in old wine skins. The blue part in your above quote singles out "Christ's righteousness" showing in us, yet the bulk of your questions rely on a foundation of self-work according to the Law of Moses. The Bible is clear on this friend, we are not to be having "OUR OWN righteousness which is BY THE LAW."

The problem with that is that the 10 Commandments are meant to reveal sin to be sin, and a condition of slavery to sin.

Faith is meant to bring the Holy Spirit which sets our minds free from sin by the continued working and chastisement of the Spirit within. Unfortunately your questions are predicated on whether or not WE pass a test brought forth by the law, and at the same time asks us whether or not CHRIST'S righteousness is showing forth.

It's a double talking test. It's a forked tongued question, even if unintentional. You have not properly understood the place of the 10 Commandments in God's work to bring people to Christ.

God's moral code runs through EVERY LAW in the law, all 613 laws, not just 10, so the 10 Commandments are not "His Holy Moral Standard" the entire Law is, and Christ within fulfills not just 10 Commandments but the entire law. Did Jesus say "I have come to fulfill the prophets and the 10 Commandments?" NO. He fulfills "the LAW and the prophets," and in doing so BECOMES the righteousness of those who believe, which is where they get their morality apart from the law.

2 Thess 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits TO....BE...SAVED, THROUGH sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Righteousness and morality and salvation (from sin) are not achieved by following a written code of commandments but it comes THROUGH sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. Belief in the truth (faith) leads to salvation because the Spirit is WHAT sanctifies us.

So my answer to 1-6 are: no, no, no, no, no and no. My answer to 7 is yes, because I credit Christ with 1-6.

The 10 commandments of course. Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

willieH: Hi TC10... :welcome: to Tentmaker...

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 07:52:10 PM
I learned this marvelous revelation of 1 John a while ago.  Athough, I do not believe in UR, I still care for people's eternal salvation. There is nothing more important than your eternal salvation. I would like to pass this revelation on to this forum.

The basics of Christianity : Happiness (1 John 1:4) Holiness (1 John 2:1) Security(1 John 5:13) When True faith, Obedience, and love operate together, they result in Happiness, Holiness, and Assurance. True Faith, Obedience, and Love constitute the evidence of a True Christian. Are you going to pass the test? Lets see.

First Test: Do you walk in the Light? (1 John 1:6)

Second Test: Do you admit and confess sin? (1 John 1:8-9)

Third Test : Are you Obedient? ( 1 John 2:3-5)

Fourth Test: Do you imitate Christ? (1 John 2:6)

Fifth Test: Do you love others? ( 1 John 2:9)

Six Test : Do you love the world? Your relationship with the world. (1 John 2:15-17)

Seventh Test: Does Christ Righteousness show in you? ( 1 John 2:29)

How did you do? Did you pass the test? If not, understand your guilt by sinning against God by continually breaking His 10 commandments, His Holy Moral Standard. ( Rom 3:19) Repent (change of mind) and Believe in your heart on the Lord Jesus for your eternal salvation. I pray for those who failed the test that God grant you the gift of repentance and faith to believe on His son Jesus for true eternal salvation. God bless.  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

Let me ask YOU a question "TC10"...

How did YOU answer #6? 

In light of John 3:16?  GOD not only LOVED the WORLD, but ..."SO LOVED the WORLD"! (btw the word WORLD in both texts is KOSMOS)

I think there is more to 1 John 2:15-17 than might first "meet the eye"...

Just my  :2c:

willieH: Hi TC10 --  :cloud9:

This question might not even make any sense to you, but please, just a YES or NO answer will suffice:

Are you CoG37/lee100?

Thanks for your YES/NO answer...  :cloud9:

Ok to those who follow the law...

A 5 year old girl gets raped very badly and her rapist is 49 years old.

According you YOUR OWN LAW all you will have to do is give her dad $348.00 and she will be your wife forever.


This is your Moral Law= No thanks...

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Lee Damboise II finds Law sick even for those Jews that followed them...

Seth,

By no means am I putting new wine in old wine skins. 1 John was written by the apostle John to the body of Christ.. 1 John is all about what it is to be a Christian..not a law abiding Jew. In no way does this beautiful espistle translate that or my questions. Those are the questions John asks throughout the first few chapters. Jesus fulfilled the law for believers only..the rest of the world are still accountable to God by His Moral Law ( Romans 3:19) until they are in Christ ( Gal 3:24).Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)    :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 08:47:16 PM
Seth,

By no means am I putting new wine in old wine skins. 1 John was written by the apostle John to the body of Christ.. 1 John is all about what it is to be a Christian..not a law abiding Jew. In no way does this beautiful espistle translate that or my questions. Those are the questions John asks throughout the first few chapters. Jesus fulfilled the law for believers only..the rest of the world are still accountable to God by His Moral Law ( Romans 3:19) until they are in Christ 9 Gal 3:24).Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)    :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

What about 1 John 1:8?  How can we "have sin", if we are not "practicing it"?

I disagree with your statement above [in blue] -- The "law is GOOD" irregardless of our treatment of it (lawfully or unlawfully) -- Rom 7:12

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 08:47:16 PM
Seth,

By no means am I putting new wine in old wine skins. 1 John was written by the apostle John to the body of Christ.. 1 John is all about what it is to be a Christian..not a law abiding Jew. In no way does this beautiful espistle translate that or my questions. Those are the questions John asks throughout the first few chapters. Jesus fulfilled the law for believers only..the rest of the world are still accountable to God by His Moral Law ( Romans 3:19) until they are in Christ 9 Gal 3:24).Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)    :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

I know that John asked those questions TC, but the problem came in when you asked whether or not we are breaking the "moral standard" which you say is the 10 commandments. That is not the measuring stick by which I would establish the answers to those questions. The moral standard is the ENTIRE LAW, not 10 commandments. John understood that which is why his questions are all about whether or not CHRIST is within.

Your questions 1-6 are all about what WE do in relation to the supposed "moral standard" which you think are the 10 commandments. If I use those commandments to see if I am following them, then I would be establishing my OWN righteousness.

The point of faith is NOT to delete morality, but it is meant to bring the Spirit's righteousness into us.

When that happens we are NO LONGER UNDER the 10 commandments or any other commandment within the ENTIRE law. The whole thing is a shadow of Christ. Once I have the body, I no longer live by the shadow that the body casts. I have no problem with people asking "do you do this" or "do you do that." But I do have a problem when people ask me that in relation to living under 10 commandments.

Hi willie,

Yes, I love the world. But I'm not conformed by the world or its values. #6 deals with being conformed to this world system. If you are conformed by this world the Father is not in you.

seth,
i agree to disagree.

And yet you have no scriptural basis.  :thumbdown:

willie,

and we have known that the law is good, if any one may use it lawfully; ( 1 Tim 1:8)

having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, ( 1 Tim 1:9)

willieH: Hi TC10 --  :cloud9:

are you going to answer my question?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH on August 25, 2009, 08:41:26 PM
Are you CoG37/lee100?

Thanks for your YES/NO answer...  :cloud9:

Ro 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So Wille he must be a sinner as his above comment

Or maybe I should say UNGODLY AND SINNERS

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 09:03:39 PM
willie,

and we have known that the law is good, if any one may use it lawfully; ( 1 Tim 1:8)

having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, ( 1 Tim 1:9)

USING the Law "lawfully" does not make the Law "GOOD"... it makes it "GOOD" concerning us... the LAW is GOOD ...OF ITSELF, as I have already noted in Romans...  :dontknow:

PS -- :dunno: -- are you going to answer my question?  :cloud9:

Are you CoG37/lee100?

So truechristian1  what do you think of being a rapist, its in the law that you follow

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 09:03:30 PM
And yet you have no scriptural basis.  :thumbdown:

I think you made a good case, bro... I too would like to see SCRIPTURAL basis for the "disagreement"... :nod:

Quote from: TC10having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, ( 1 Tim 1:9)

You say you disagree with my statements, then you quote a scripture which proves my statements?

The law is not for a righteous man. Therefore.....the 10 commandments ARE NOT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS TO FOLLOW.

They are only for those who are not righteous. But WE are to have righteousness in Christ by Christ's righteousness in us. So I do not judge myself, nor do I TEST myself by what you label as the "moral code" - as if God's moral code is not present all throughout Leviticus. Give me a break.

lee,

I was once lost.. but I have been found by God's grace.  I once was a sinner and ungodly, but now I'm a new creature in Christ by faith. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24)

Quote from: willieH on August 25, 2009, 09:13:44 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 09:03:30 PM
And yet you have no scriptural basis.  :thumbdown:

I think you made a good case, bro... I too would like to see SCRIPTURAL basis for the "disagreement"... :nod:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Thank you brother. And I would like to repeat your very SIMPLE question to TC10.

TC10: Are you CoG37/lee100?

Don't let that question trip you up now, it shouldn't be difficult if you are not them. But if you are... I can see why you would be something to avoid...

It would make you a lying hypocrite.

If we are under the law of faith [in Christ Jesus], we are no longer under the Law [of Moses].  

Why?

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


--Gal 5


Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

willieH: Hi TC10 --  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on August 25, 2009, 08:41:26 PM
Are you CoG37/lee100?

Thanks for your YES/NO answer...  :cloud9:

Hello!  TC10 -- are you going to answer my question?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH on August 25, 2009, 09:10:44 PM

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 09:03:39 PM
willie,

and we have known that the law is good, if any one may use it lawfully; ( 1 Tim 1:8)

having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, ( 1 Tim 1:9)

USING the Law "lawfully" does not make the Law "GOOD"... it makes it "GOOD" concerning us... the LAW is GOOD ...OF ITSELF, as I have already noted in Romans...  :dontknow:

PS -- :dunno: -- are you going to answer my question?  :cloud9:

Are you CoG37/lee100?

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;


I think at least one issue here is christians who use the law to minimize their own sins.

seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.

Whose Faith...

Your own or someone else's faith.

"Maybe" it is a Church/Baptist faith you have learned this from/ N.I.V.

Jesus' Faith or Yours -- Who's  ?
K.J.V.                Rom. 3:22
   Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith of Jesus Christ...

N.I.V.
   The righteousness from God comes through Faith in Jesus Christ...

C.L.N.T.V.
   A righteousness of God through Jesus Christs' Faith.(E ph. 2.8  Too –through Jesus' Faith)

Gal. 2:16

K.J.V.
   Knowing the a man is not justified by the works of the law, But by the faith of Jesus Christ, even when we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we be justified by the faith of Christ.

N.I.V.
   Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but( by faith in) Jesus Christ.  So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

These two types say a world of difference in who is/has done the work.

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 09:22:05 PM
seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.

Yes, and  then what happens?

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 09:36:18 PM

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 09:22:05 PM
seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.

Yes, and  then what happens?

Ask that to the next person that regs :laughing7:

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 25, 2009, 09:25:36 PM

In Christ BY Faith????

Whose Faith...

Your own or someone else's faith.

"Maybe" it is a Church/Baptist faith you have learned this from/ N.I.V.

Jesus' Faith or Yours -- Who's  ?
K.J.V.                Rom. 3:22
   Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith of Jesus Christ...

N.I.V.
   The righteousness from God comes through Faith in Jesus Christ...

C.L.N.T.V.
   A righteousness of God through Jesus Christs' Faith.(E ph. 2.8  Too –through Jesus' Faith)

Gal. 2:16

K.J.V.
   Knowing the a man is not justified by the works of the law, But by the faith of Jesus Christ, even when we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we be justified by the faith of Christ.

N.I.V.
   Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but( by faith in) Jesus Christ.  So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Jesus Christ.

wow.  We have the faith of Jesus.  pistis Iēsous.  Jesus' faith.  :mshock:

That means so did Abraham before he was circumcised.   :mshock:


Rom 3:22  Even1161 the righteousness1343 of God2316 which is by1223 faith4102 of Jesus2424 Christ5547 unto1519 all3956 and2532 upon1909 all3956 them that believe:4100 for1063 there is2076 no3756 difference:1293

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2009, 09:40:02 PMAsk that to the next person that regs :laughing7:

Yeah, really! :icon_jokercolor:

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 09:22:05 PM
seth,

I never said believers in Christ are bound to the law. Jesus fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. The law was created to drive us by faith to Jesus. (Gal 3:24) The law shows your filthyness and sinfulness in a miror ( How God really sees you) when they see thier need of a Savior it drives them by faith to the cross.

You say you disagree with me, yet you prove my point.  :mshock:

And on top of that you give no scriptural basis for me to believe that the "10 commandments" are the "high moral standard" and not the entire law. Do you know that Jesus quoted a Leviticus commandment when asked what the greatest commandments are:

Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Do you see "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" commited in letter on stone tablets (10 commandments)? I don't. The SECOND GREATEST COMMANDMENT is here:

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take revenge or bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

There are actually TWO commandments in that verse, and BOTH are not in the 10 commandments, and ONE was said by Jesus to be one of the greatest.

The problem with your test is that it tells me "If not, understand your guilt by sinning against God by continually breaking His 10 commandments, His Holy Moral Standard."

Right away that tells me that

1) I need to stop breaking the 10 commandments, which means I would need to live by them. The truth is that God does not want us to either break them or live by them, BUT NOT BE UNDER THEM AT ALL.  

2) It tells me that you think that 10 commandments have a higher place in God's law than a certain commandment Christ considered to be greater than even keeping the Sabbath

You say: "The judicial and Ceremonial laws no long apply( because of Jesus sacrifice) but the Moral law is still binding for today."

Oh REALLY? Tell me where the Bible creates a separation of "judicial" "ceremonial" and "moral laws" and then tell me where it says "the moral law is still binding for today" and then tell me where it says that "the 10 commandments are the moral laws."

You will not be able to do that, because the fact of the matter is that the BIBLE DOES NOT SAY ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

It says "we do not live by the letter but by the Spirit." If you attempt to "BIND" us to supposed "moral laws" being supposed 10 commandments YOU become a Judaizer, attempting to convince me to live by a section of Moses which supposedly I should still be under.

I am not under ANY part of Moses. I am free from all letter, under Christ who gives me all HIS commandments day to day in my walk.

Quote from: SethDo you see "thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" commited in letter on stone tablets (10 commandments)? I don't. The SECOND GREATEST COMMANDMENT is here:

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take revenge or bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

That's because the Law of faith [of Christ Jesus] and the Law of Moses were always standing side by side, even in the Old Testament.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.


Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.



He is so Wonderful!

Looks like a knockout in round 3.

Those who are under the Law of faith [of Christ Jesus] are the holy arm of God!
They are the Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym!


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.




"the salvation/ of our God"

Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym

willieH:  Hi CoG37 aka lee100 aka TC10 -- :hithere:

One last thing to you...

If you really are a representative of CHRIST and the GOSPEL... then why all the decieving DISGUISES?  Why have you NOT been FORTHRIGHT, as to WHO you are?  :sigh:

Shall you "don" yet another name, and masquerade further? 

We shall see...

Maybe GOD has drawn you here to learn of and expose, the fallacies in your beliefs, and to bring you OUT of BABYLON...  :dontknow:  Think about it!

If that were to be the case... :welcome:

    In reference to the fact that there is no sin if there is no law ---  also connect the thought that overcoming the law will remove us from the curse of death, 1 Cor. 15:55-58 says, " O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.   But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through{ Dia. } our Lord Jesus Christ."  This indicates that death comes because of sin and sin comes because of the law.  Conversely, it might be interpreted that the law brings sin and sin brings death.  Remembering that we are to seek immortality  (Rom.2:7)  
Perhaps a clue to entering the state of immortality is to eliminate the cause of death which is sin and law.  Since Jesus fulfilled the law and brought us four simple new ones( laws ), we may find the process of entering immortality will involve our keeping Jesus' four commandments and not allowing our minds to condemn ourselves when we are led by the Holy Spirit to do things that are against the commandments of Moses.  
                  I am presently convinced there is no authority for teaching the idea that the O.T. is to be divided into sections and that some of those sections are not to be followed and that some are to be used as law even now.  Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.  To get a little technical, the TORAH is the law and it includes the total of everything concerning it.  The TSAVAH is the prime commandment and it includes the rituals and lots of other statutes too---  including the Ten Commandments ( words ).  The MISHPAT is the judgment.  The CHOQ is the statute and decree.  The MITSVAH is from the TSAVAH and is a commandment.  The DABAR is a "word" and is used in the Ten Commandments ( word ) sometimes called DECALOG  ( or the 10 words ).

               The EDAH  is a testimony or witness and comes from the idea to duplicate.  The CHUQQAH    is a statute or ordinance or decreed limit.  These are eight O.T. words that are used interchangeably in our translations.  Concerning the O.T. law; there is just no way to decide which ones to keep and which to throw out.  In checking out the article which pleads with us to return to the law, I noticed that the author quoted some of the better commands ( TSAVAH ) such as apply to health, government and military ideas  --  and I agree   --  but there was no mention of the commands  ( TSAVAH ) which are impossible to keep in OUR PRESENT SOCIETY.  For example, give dead animal meat to a stranger and sell to alien but don't eat it yourself ( Deut. 14:21 ).  I wouldn't want to give or sell bad meat to anyone.  Also, offer no blemished sacrifice (Deut. 17:1 ). Well, I don't intend to offer any sacrifice at all --  blemished or not.  How about  --  stone the wicked person (Deut. 17:5 ) ?
          I don't believe Jesus wants me to stone anybody..  ? The commandments say if I take a beautiful women captive in a battle I am to leave her alone for a month before having sexual intercourse with her ( Deut. 21:10 ) When  I was in the U. S. Navy in the Korean War I never intended to keep that commandment by having sexual intercourse with any captive woman  --  and my wife Agreed !  How about the command that the son of your hated wife is to receive the greater inheritance if born before the son of your beloved wife ?  The only way I know how to keep that command is to engage in polygamy and I do not intend to keep that command.  In fact, my government would prosecute me, my society would persecute me and MY WIFE WOULD EXECUTE ME if I did keep it !  The command ( TSAVAH ) is to kill your stubborn, rebellious child.  I'm glad that my parents didn't keep that one!  The command ( TSAVAH ) says that a rapist MUST marry his victim ( any age ) if she is not engaged to another man ( Deut. 22:28 ).  I find it inconceivable that anyone would want to go back to the commandments of the O. T.
                  It is a thrill to me to know that my Savior Jesus Christ made it all simple by condensing (8) different words and hundreds of different ways of translating them into       ( 4 ) simple commands.

    1.   Watch for the return of the Son of Man (Second coming/Presence ) (Mark 13:34 ) I Lee Damboise II, believes this is when a person is(Born again-Jewish Circumised Law Christians, Peter's Gospel) or )].  And has NOTHING to do with a Rapture.
2.    Love each other (John 15:17 ).
   3.   When we minister we are to preach and teach that ( Acts 10:41-43 ):
A.   Jesus was ordained of God
B.   Jesus brings remission of sins to believers...
4.     Be a light to the Gentiles ( which you were ), Acts 13: 47.
                                      Now I feel FREE TO LIVE

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 25, 2009, 10:27:29 PM
Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.

That is because no scriptural difference is drawn.  :thumbsup:

Christ fulfills ALL the law, if "the moral laws" still "bind" us then Christ fulfills only part of the law, and not the 10 commandments, and we are most miserable because we are still accused by the one we trusted, Moses.

TC10 clearly contradicts himself:

1) he says "the law is not for a righteous man"
2) the moral laws are still binding

I guess by his own admission, he must not be a righteous man if he is bound under laws - which are not for the righteous and are there to accuse the unrighteous.

:doh:

That is a big 10-4
that is why I posted my list of lets say laws.
For him to hopefully see that.

I personally don't mind either way what he is or isn't, just that he will experience life through us/grace/the Father...

34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

--Mat 22

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 10:42:09 PM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 25, 2009, 10:27:29 PM
Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.

That is because no scriptural difference is drawn.  :thumbsup:

Christ fulfills ALL the law, if "the moral laws" still "bind" us then Christ fulfills only part of the law, and not the 10 commandments, and we are most miserable because we are still accused by the one we trusted, Moses.

TC10 clearly contradicts himself:

1) he says "the law is not for a righteous man"
2) the moral laws are still binding

I guess by his own admission, he must not be a righteous man if he is bound under laws - which are not for the righteous and are there to accuse the unrighteous.

:doh:

That's because a righteous man wouldn't break them.  Not a contradiction.

It's a contradiction, because the law is not even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.

The law is against sin. But when you are delivered from sin by the Spirit, what law can accuse you?

So, TC10 registered today and he's already on restricted status. Yet another CoG/ lee incarnation? A buddy this time perhaps?

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 10:57:07 PM
It's a contradiction, because the law is not even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.

The law is against sin. But when you are delivered from sin by the Spirit, what law can accuse you?

AMEN

PRAISE HIM

Matt 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

When the new heaven and earth comes to each person, that is when the jots and tittles pass. That is why Jesus told them to keep following the law, because he hadn't yet established HIS church. He established the new heaven and new earth (the New Jerusalem bride), and for each person that enters the new heaven and earth, the jots and tittles pass.

Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in all who believe.

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 10:57:07 PM
It's a contradiction, because the law is even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.

Yes because a righteous man would not break God's law because he loves God.  That is why Jesus gives us only two commandments on which all the law and prophets hang.  Love will not harm anyone, therefore love is fulfillment of the Law.

A new man is being created who looks, acts, and behaves just like Jesus!



43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

--Mat 5

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:03:02 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 10:57:07 PM
It's a contradiction, because the law is even FOR the righteous man. It does not say a righteous man does not break them, it says they are not even FOR a righteous man.

Yes because a righteous man would not break God's law because he loves God.  That is why Jesus gives us only two commandments on which all the law and prophets hang.  Love will not harm anyone, therefore love is fulfillment of the Law.

A new man is being created who looks, acts, and behaves just like Jesus!



43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

--Mat 5

And yet even those two commandments were spoken to people who were living under an old heaven and old earth.

You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:05:14 PM
You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Yes?  Well, try killing me and see how God deals with you.

Two lampstands.  Two lights.  Two Laws.  Which are really both the same, one a higher revelation of the other...

QuoteQuote from: Molly on Today at 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on Today at 04:05:14 PM
You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Yes?  Well, try killing me and see how God deals with you.

Two lampstands.  Two lights.  Two Laws.  Which are really both the same, one a higher revelation of the other...

Why would I want to kill you? I live in a NEW country from ABOVE. I wouldn't want to kill you BECAUSE I am delivered from sin and still being delivered, and therefore I am delivered to a NEW country whereby I am a stranger in a strange land.

Therefore I do not live under Old Jerusalem with it's jot and tittle laws, but in NEW Jerusalem in which Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those who believe. That is because HE is my righteousness from within, not Moses.

Against love there is no law which needs to state "thall shalt not kill" and being delivered from sin means I do not even NEED to be under such a law which is for murderers by their nature.

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 08:35:33 PM
The 10 commandments of course. Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

Paul warned us about mixing law with grace in Galatians. We are not under law but under grace. WHEN Paul was under law it was his schoolmaster leading him to Christ and WHEN the Jews were under law it was THEN that the law led them to Christ.

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:15:52 PM

QuoteQuote from: Molly on Today at 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: Seth on Today at 04:05:14 PM
You can't break the laws of a country you are not a citizen of. You cannot break laws you are not under, Molly. I am not under the 10 commandments. I live in a new nation.

Yes?  Well, try killing me and see how God deals with you.

Two lampstands.  Two lights.  Two Laws.  Which are really both the same, one a higher revelation of the other...

Why would I want to kill you? I live in a NEW country from ABOVE. I wouldn't want to kill you BECAUSE I am delivered from sin and still being delivered, and therefore I am delivered to a NEW country whereby I am a stranger in a strange land.

Therefore I do not live under Old Jerusalem with it's jot and tittle laws, but in NEW Jerusalem in which Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those who believe. That is because HE is my righteousness from within, not Moses.

Against love there is no law which needs to state "thall shalt not kill" and being delivered from sin means I do not even NEED to be under such a law which is for murderers by their nature.

Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.

Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.

I don't need the law, and therefore no moral laws by way of the old country can bind me or accuse me. The law is not for a righteous man, but for murderers.

Quote from: Tony N on August 25, 2009, 11:18:43 PM

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 08:35:33 PM
The 10 commandments of course. Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

Paul warned us about mixing law with grace in Galatians. We are not under law but under grace. WHEN Paul was under law it was his schoolmaster leading him to Christ and WHEN the Jews were under law it was THEN that the law led them to Christ.

so what leads one to Christ now if it isn't the law??

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:22:12 PM
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.

Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:24:48 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:22:12 PM
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.

Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:21:09 PM
Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.

Who isn't breaking Gods laws?

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:26:03 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:24:48 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:22:12 PM
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.

Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.

You are not going to break it, therefore you are still under it but operating at a higher level.

It's inside rather than outside.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 25, 2009, 11:28:34 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:21:09 PM
Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.

Who isn't breaking Gods laws?

Who isn't?  Must be somebody or Jesus wouldn't have said, go and sin no more.

He wouldn't have said that if it's not possible.

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:28:52 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:26:03 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:24:48 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:22:12 PM
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.

Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.

You are not going to break it, therefore you are still under it but operating at a higher level.

It's inside rather than outside.

Nope, I'm not under Moses, I am in Christ instead. As I said, if you say you are under Moses, that is between you and God. I am not under Moses.

Zeek, IMO
what leads one to Christ is Christ...

After He rose from the dead, all sin was done away with, and Spiritual Separation/Death

Every human being is born with Eternal life after the cross, Vivified, In Christ, it just takes Christ longer with some to see that they are living in an Eternal.

Lee Damboise II---IMO

Quote from: Zeek on August 25, 2009, 11:24:14 PM

Quote from: Tony N on August 25, 2009, 11:18:43 PM

Quote from: truechristian10 on August 25, 2009, 08:35:33 PM
The 10 commandments of course. Both Jew and Gentile are under sin and guilty of breaking God's commandments. ( Rom 3:19). The Law is created to shut every mouth from declaring our own righteousness and leave us all guilty before God (Romans 3:19). It is designed to bring knowledge of what sin is. Paul said that if it were not for the Law, he would not know what sin was. He also said that the Law is to be our Schoolmaster. It teaches us of our own guilt and drives us to the foot of the cross begging for forgiveness before a Holy God. The Law is Good if it is used Lawfully. We cannot partake of Grace until we come face to face with our sin in the Mirror of the Law. If we are practicing sin (actively living in it), then we know not the Truth. (1 John 3)  :HeartThrob: :boyheart:

Paul warned us about mixing law with grace in Galatians. We are not under law but under grace. WHEN Paul was under law it was his schoolmaster leading him to Christ and WHEN the Jews were under law it was THEN that the law led them to Christ.

so what leads one to Christ now if it isn't the law??

Since Gentiles were never under law, the law could never lead them to Christ. It is through God using the evangelist to bring the evangel being preached to us that  God uses to open our mind, ears and heart to the truth of our salvation.

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:31:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:28:52 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:26:03 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:24:48 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2009, 11:22:12 PM
Right, as you say, I don't need the law, even though that does not mean that I am a law unto myself. I don't need the law, because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in those that believe.

Yes, but that does not mean the Law of Moses has been done away with or that you are above the Law.

You are under a different Law which incorporates the Law of Moses and rightly divides it.

"Thall shalt not kill" is for those who need to be told "do not kill" it is not for those who do not wish to kill even as their nature has been changed by the Spirit. Why would somebody whose very nature prevents them from killing be told "do not kill." Moses is for murderers.

If you say the Law of Moses is for you, so be it. You can have it and that is up to you and God. I am not under it, but Christ is my righteousness in me. Jots and tittles are only for those who have not matured in love.

You are not going to break it, therefore you are still under it but operating at a higher level.

It's inside rather than outside.

Nope, I'm not under Moses, I am in Christ instead. As I said, if you say you are under Moses, that is between you and God. I am not under Moses.

well, you can put it any way you like, but we are saying the same thing.  If you are in Christ and Christ is in you, you are not going to break the 10 commandments.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


--Mat 5

IMO-- Molly, that was when he was forfilling the law to law christians or jews
Not Pauls new Gospel, of Grace

Those who who walk by the spirit do not need laws to check their behavior. Only those who have not matured in love need laws to tell them what they should do.

If my nature is changed, I no longer need a number of laws to tell me not to do this or that. Those are just schoolteachers which have lead me to Christ who is the end of the law for righteousness. That's just me. If anyone still thinks they need Moses for righteousness, so be it. That is on them. I do not follow the letter.

Quotewell, you can put it any way you like, but we are saying the same thing.  If you are in Christ and Christ is in you, you are not going to break the 10 commandments.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

We are not saying the same thing. I am saying that I am not UNDER the 10 commandments because they are not for me, because you cannot break the laws of a land you do not live in. I live in a new country, whereby the letter is passed away, and the Spirit is come to make all things new.

You are telling me that I am still under laws which aren't FOR those who are righteous. GRACE is what makes people righteous by by changing our nature, making the letter passed away. I cannot break commandments that are not even for me in the first place.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 25, 2009, 11:36:43 PM
IMO-- Molly, that was when he was forfilling the law to law christians or jews
Not Pauls new Gospel, of Grace

What do you mean?

Besides, if we were the saying the same thing, Molly, you wouldn't have told me that TC10's statements weren't contradictory. If we really were saying the same thing you would have agreed. I don't mind disagreements but people who are saying the same thing don't simultaneously disagree.

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:30:19 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 25, 2009, 11:28:34 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:21:09 PM
Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.

Who isn't breaking Gods laws?

Who isn't?  Must be somebody or Jesus wouldn't have said, go and sin no more.

He wouldn't have said that if it's not possible.

1Jn 1:8 . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First thing Molly, this is really my own option,
that when JC rose from the dead, death "was" abolished...
i.e. Sin... All Sin...   That all that died in Adam "Has Been Made Alive or Has Been Vivified...)  There is no Death Period... For Jew, Christian, or any other any-{thing} in God's Materiel World...

As For Paul H ?

the expression you used was said to non-Gracers, Matt. Lk. Mk. ,Jn. Act 28:27and prior, Hebrews, James, Peter John,Jude, Rev.

No to me or any Gentile... The book was speaking to Law Peoples

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:06:18 AM
First thing Molly, this is really my own option,
that when JC rose from the dead, death "was" abolished...
i.e. Sin... All Sin...   That all that died in Adam "Has Been Made Alive or Has Been Vivified...)  There is no Death Period... For Jew, Christian, or any other any-{thing} in God's Materiel World...

As For Paul H ?

the expression you used was said to non-Gracers, Matt. Lk. Mk. ,Jn. Act 28:27and prior, Hebrews, James, Peter John,Jude, Rev.

No to me or any Gentile... The book was speaking to Law Peoples

Are you saying you do not sin Lee?

Absolutely, I have no law to follow that brings death...

I have only Christ. And He Guides me in all things, i.e. no written Laws.
But of course we do have our city and state laws but that is not what we are talking about.

Romans 7 (Amplified Bible)

17 However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:09:59 AM
Absolutely, I have no law to follow that brings death...

I have only Christ. And He Guides me in all things, i.e. no written Laws.
But of course we do have our city and state laws but that is not what we are talking about.

You do nothing wrong ever, Lee?   

to let you know that I am Okay with everyone not agreeing with me because
99.9999999999999999999999999999999 Don't.

the above Roms is ok, although I have no sin... or laws to break.
God indwelling makes my rules.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 26, 2009, 12:07:01 AM

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:06:18 AM
First thing Molly, this is really my own option,
that when JC rose from the dead, death "was" abolished...
i.e. Sin... All Sin...   That all that died in Adam "Has Been Made Alive or Has Been Vivified...)  There is no Death Period... For Jew, Christian, or any other any-{thing} in God's Materiel World...

As For Paul H ?

the expression you used was said to non-Gracers, Matt. Lk. Mk. ,Jn. Act 28:27and prior, Hebrews, James, Peter John,Jude, Rev.

No to me or any Gentile... The book was speaking to Law Peoples

Are you saying you do not sin Lee?

Having sin and committing sin are not the same. Sin exists in "the body of this death" our flesh, and brings our minds under slavery to it when we do not have the spirit. Since the Spirit is given to us as an earnest (a downpayment) of future glory, we can still HAVE sin without committing sin as long as we still have the flesh.

However, it is GRACE that chastises us to live Godly lives in this present age, and grace is clearly distinguished from law. I was reconciled in Christ while I was an enemy, God not imputing my sins against me. That is a biblical fact. So if I sin, I have still not broken the law of Moses. If I say that, then I am admitting that I am still under the law and therefore am a debter to all of it.

If I deny that I was reconciled and that God is not using the Law to impute my sin, then I might as well start offering sacrifices again. It is all or nothing with Moses. But if I do sin, I am chastised by Christ who is the propitiation of my sin and therefore is my comforter/advocate. The law I am in is not Moses, but love which is in Christ by grace NOT according to the letter.

That is why I say, I do not live by the laws of an old country, and am therefore not even able to break them. But that does not mean I will not be chastise if I go against the Spirit. I do not live in the shadow, but in the body.

Wrong How, According to my city or according to a law in the CLV or Bible?

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:17:43 AM
Wrong How, According to my city or according to a law in the CLV or Bible?

Do you ever do anything that God needs to correct you for?

Having sin and committing sin are not the same. Sin exists in "the body of this death" our flesh, and brings our minds under slavery to it when we do not have the spirit

Maybe you believe sin lives in your flesh, but I am in a new land, in this land there is only God. And NO Sin.   so many people think that they have to be berried in the ground to not be in this flesh, My Catholic parents think the same way.

God corrects me second by second and that means yes, but it is now a law of any kind which brings death.

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:24:10 AM
God corrects me second by second and that means yes, but it is now a law of any kind which brings death.

What do you need corrected for?

I am truly sorry that I have to go to work on my pouch or my dog wont be  able to go pee.

will be back later, please leave any messages , I will try to answer them all, to the best of my ability.

or if you are over 18 email me at     sinfreeforever@gmx.ru

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:22:54 AM
Having sin and committing sin are not the same. Sin exists in "the body of this death" our flesh, and brings our minds under slavery to it when we do not have the spirit

Maybe you believe sin lives in your flesh, but I am in a new land, in this land there is only God. And NO Sin.   so many people think that they have to be berried in the ground to not be in this flesh, My Catholic parents think the same way.

I didn't say it LIVES in my flesh. I am DEAD to the body. When I see the word "lives" I take that to mean that it is active and keeping me in slavery. Sin does not LIVE in my flesh but I know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. That is because it LUSTS against the Spirit.

The more I walk in the Spirit the more I am immune to that and do not even feel it. This much I have experienced in life. Sin EXISTS in the body of death, but the body of death is something that we can be DEAD to. Having sin is not the same as committing it.

We live in a new country, and the law of that country is love not 613 commandments. It is by that very truth that you realize that you still need correcting. Correcting from what?

Got to go, but my correction issues are between myself and myself/God

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:27:55 AM
Got to go, but my correction issues are between myself and myself/God

You do not have to list your specific issues to answer,  it is simple,  whatever you need corrected for, why do you need correction if you do not sin?   

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 26, 2009, 12:27:55 AM
Got to go, but my correction issues are between myself and myself/God

The very fact that you know you need correction shows that you are BEING corrected which itself shows that your nature is still being changed. That is why John says we have sin, because our nature is still being changed to become completely armored against it.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 25, 2009, 11:55:33 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:30:19 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 25, 2009, 11:28:34 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 11:21:09 PM
Exactly.  That's what I just said.  You don't need the law not because you are a law unto yourself, but because you wouldn't break God's law because you love him.

Who isn't breaking Gods laws?

Who isn't?  Must be somebody or Jesus wouldn't have said, go and sin no more.

He wouldn't have said that if it's not possible.

1Jn 1:8 . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Why does everyone stop reading?!?!




1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

12I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.



--1John 1, 2

"A new commandment"

Not new wine in old skins.

If you do that the skin breaks and the wine pours out, then you have NO wine at all.

Quote from: Seth on August 26, 2009, 01:03:36 AM
"A new commandment"

Not new wine in old skins.

If you do that the skin breaks and the wine pours out, then you have NO wine at all.

It is not just the wine that is new.  It is the wineskin, as well.

Exactly!

The new skin is the Spirit WITHOUT the letter...

The old skin is the letter. The old wine is "our righteousness which is by the law."

Mixing the two causes the loss of ALL. This is why I do not say that both laws are the same. One, the letter, is SHADOW (old), and the new is the BODY (new) which casts the shadow.

Do you know what Moses was holding in his hands as he descended the mountain with a veil on his face? I don't wear that veil and I don't mix new into an old container. Moses is the old container. Jesus is the NEWness of life. I don't say I am under both.

Quote from: Molly on August 26, 2009, 12:54:55 AM
Why does everyone stop reading?!?!

Do you need correction from God?   

Quote from: Lee Damboise on August 25, 2009, 09:25:36 PM

In Christ BY Faith????

Whose Faith...

Your own or someone else's faith.

"Maybe" it is a Church/Baptist faith you have learned this from/ N.I.V.

Jesus' Faith or Yours -- Who's  ?
K.J.V.                Rom. 3:22
   Even the righteousness of God which is by Faith of Jesus Christ...

This is very true.
This idea about the faith OF God (as opposed to faith IN God) became settled in my heart and mind several years ago and has considerably helped me since.

I will tell you a true story:
I was raised in a severely abusive home. As such, I never obtained for myself a proper image of an earthly parent. So, later when I married and our own son arrived, the only thing that I was most certain about was that I wouldn't do the things which my own parents had done. Other than that, I had no clue how a father should properly behave and act.
So, I asked the Lord to be sure and teach me how to be a proper parent; after all, He is the father of all the living and so would surely know something about parenting skills.
It was easy not to physically harm my son. I could come against that temptation in an instant.
However, it was my mental and emotional posture towards him which was the most difficult thing to deal with and change.
For example: one day, after many failures of my son's promises not to wet his pants anymore, I took him by the hand and emptied the laundry basket before him and showed him all his failed promises. I actually took each piece of soiled clothing out of the laundry basket and threw it down before him on the floor.
He stood there utterly crushed.
I was so proud of myself about the valuable lesson I was teaching my son.
I left him my son standing there staring at his soiled laundry and I returned to sit on the couch.
I don't know how to describe it, but it was as I was hearing an audible thought saying: "Is that how your heavenly Father treats you when you do wrong?".
The words pierced my heart to the very core.
And, then another thought came to me saying: "You should have told him that he did not have to continue wetting his pants. That he could be strong and that you would be there to help him through it".
The realization of what I had done brought me near to tears.
Then I heard, "My son, you have to have the same faith about your child that I have over my own children. Go back and hug him and tell him of your faith in him and of your faith in his desire to do good".
The change which happened with my son was incredible. It was as if a huge burden had been lifted from his shoulders. He no longer had to hide or feel ashamed for his wetting issues.

That's how I first learned about the faith of God.

wow.  Powerful story, Gilbert.



9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

--Luke 11

John 10 Amplified:

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.

An "audible thought."
Thanks Gilbert. I never knew quite how to put it into words.

 :cloud9: Amen, good post Gilbert. Blessings...

Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

In that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior? Do not commit murder? Do not steal? Those laws are only for those who would do those things and need to be told not to do them. But if everyone is matured in love, they need no such laws.

The law is established BY those who do not need law TO those who do need it, that is why God reveals his glory in his saints to the world.

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on August 26, 2009, 06:53:46 PM
Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

Then we would have  a fight who's most holy...

QuoteIn that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior? Do not commit murder? Do not steal? Those laws are only for those who would do those things and need to be told not to do them. But if everyone is matured in love, they need no such laws.

The law is established BY those who do not need law TO those who do need it, that is why God reveals his glory in his saints to the world.

It's some sort of paradox imo.
God can't be loving, good, smart, just, etc without a reference point of some sort.
If I ask you to name a few things that shows you that God is loving.
You would possibly answer He want to save all His kids.
If I ask you an example on why He is just.
You would possibly answer becauce He chastens exactly enough.
But with your answers you set rules/laws/verification points.
Surely you are powerless to to stop God breaking those rules but still it are rules.
God also vowed several things. IMO that means He now lives under His own law.
So even those who don't need a law need a law to show they don't need a law  :laughing7:

Quote
Then we would have  a fight who's most holy...

??

WW, the hypothetical is that everyone is JUST like Jesus. Would Jesus do that? The point is to show who the law is for and why God created the law and why it is not for the righteous.

If there were 6 billion completely selfless people matured in love (as hard as that is to imagine), you wouldn't need 10 commandments because they were meant to reveal sin to the sinner. Can you imagine telling Jesus "do not sin?" You don't need to tell him that. Jesus didn't need laws to tell him not to do something that was already in his nature not to do.

QuoteGod can't be loving, good, smart, just, etc without a reference point of some sort.

Sure He can, we just need the reference point to understand it because we are imperfect. God's nature does not depend on a reference point. It has never changed.

QuoteIf I ask you to name a few things that shows you that God is loving.
You would possibly answer He want to save all His kids.
If I ask you an example on why He is just.
You would possibly answer becauce He chastens exactly enough.
But with your answers you set rules/laws/verification points.

See above. Those reference points are only for the ungodly to understand God.

QuoteGod also vowed several things. IMO that means He now lives under His own law.
So even those who don't need a law need a law to show they don't need a law  :laughing7:

As I had said in another post, New Jerusalem is not lawless. It is called the law of liberty from sin, where the law of Moses did not set us free form sin. The law is not not according to the letter, but the living Spirit.

That is why I referenced "Do not commit murder." That law is for murderers. God is not under that law because he is not a murderer. Now being set free from sin, and therefore the law that reveals sin, we are under the law of liberty from sin in Christ. The letter never brought liberty, because it was only a shadow and not the very thing.

Quote from: Seth on August 26, 2009, 06:53:46 PM
Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

In that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior?

LOVE this.
This is what it's about.

Amen and AMEN!

Quote from: sparrow on August 26, 2009, 07:30:38 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 26, 2009, 06:53:46 PM
Imagine if everyone was like Jesus, 100% like him, perfectly matured in love, 6 billion people, 6 billion Jesus's.

In that case, what laws would you need to dictate their behavior?

LOVE this.
This is what it's about.

Amen and AMEN!

:HeartThrob:

Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Quote from: Seth on August 26, 2009, 07:25:05 PM

Quote
Then we would have  a fight who's most holy...

??

WW, the hypothetical is that everyone is JUST like Jesus. Would Jesus do that? The point is to show who the law is for and why God created the law and why it is not for the righteous.

A failed joke. Plz ignore.

Quote

QuoteIf I ask you to name a few things that shows you that God is loving.
You would possibly answer He want to save all His kids.
If I ask you an example on why He is just.
You would possibly answer becauce He chastens exactly enough.
But with your answers you set rules/laws/verification points.

See above. Those reference points are only for the ungodly to understand God.

I don't agree with that.
Without reference points God is God.
With reference points God is love, just, etc
That doesn't mean God is different with reference points; it just means that without reference points you can't label God as loving.
Example. Suppose you are the only person in America. Then you can claim you are the smartest. But because you are alone you are also the most stupid American at the same time. That's becaue there is no reference point.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2009, 07:36:42 PM

A failed joke. Plz ignore.

Ah. Sorry. Sometimes it's hard to see that because jokes depend so much on delivery, which is hard to get in writing sometimes.  :laughing7:

QuoteI don't agree with that.
Without reference points God is God.
With reference points God is love, just, etc
That doesn't mean God is different with reference points; it just means that without reference points you can't label God as loving.
Example. Suppose you are the only person in America. Then you can claim you are the smartest. But because you are alone you are also the most stupid American at the same time. That's becaue there is no reference point.

Please note the bolded blue. Without reference points YOU cannot label God as loving, but that doesn't mean he isn't loving. God does not change. Which is why I agree when you say: "That doesn't mean God is different with reference points" Exactly my point. The reference does not ESTABLISH God's nature, it just helps US humans understand it better.

This isn't about whether or not God is the MOST loving as compared to other things, but about whether He is loving at all regardless of those things. In other words, God can be loving before we have a reference point by which WE humans are able to recognize that.

Agreed.
But aren't we just humans talking about God?
Doesn't that mean we talk/reason like humans? Even if we want to reason like God we simply can't or at the very least don't know if we reason like got.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2009, 07:54:14 PM
Agreed.
But aren't we just humans talking about God?
Doesn't that mean we talk/reason like humans? Even if we want to reason like God we simply can't or at the very least don't know if we reason like got.

Yes we are humans talking about God, but to go back to the main issue, the Mosaic laws gave slaves to sin a reference point of God's holiness, in order to reveal sin to the sinner. HOWEVER, when the actual GOD is within man controlling man's nature and killing the body of death, the reference point is unnecessary as a means to follow it. God does not need a reference point. He doesn't need jots and tittles to tell Himself who He is....and He is in us, right?

The referrence point of the law is only for those who are slaves to sin. The living Spirit is for those who are being delivered from sin by active grace. This is not positional cleanliness, but ACTIVE cleansing and the law was not able to do that and still isn't.

Quote from: wwA failed joke. Plz ignore.

Not failed.  I laughed. :laughing7:

Sorry, WW, I'm a dufus when it comes to forum jokes. I need the drum roll.  :laughing7:

Quote from: Seth on August 26, 2009, 08:00:06 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2009, 07:54:14 PM
Agreed.
But aren't we just humans talking about God?
Doesn't that mean we talk/reason like humans? Even if we want to reason like God we simply can't or at the very least don't know if we reason like got.

Yes we are humans talking about God, but to go back to the main issue, the Mosaic laws gave slaves to sin a reference point of God's holiness, in order to reveal sin to the sinner. HOWEVER, when the actual GOD is within man controlling man's nature and killing the body of death, the reference point is unnecessary as a means to follow it. God does not need a reference point. He doesn't need jots and tittles to tell Himself who He is....and He is in us, right?

The referrence point of the law is only for those who are slaves to sin. The living Spirit is for those who are being delivered from sin by active grace. This is not positional cleanliness, but ACTIVE cleansing and the law was not able to do that and still isn't.

I don't know what to reply. I said my things. I have no clue what it is/feels like to have God all in all.
I understand it's positive but that's it. So it's not a helpful answer for me.
You wrote "within man controlling man's nature" another thing beyond my grasp. If we are under full control of God we are all the same. And we are not we anymore. We don't even have our own thoughts. Don't ask me for any proof but somehow I don't think that's all in all.
But this (for me minor) issue is sidetracking the thread. So people continue where you left off.

Well, I don't want to miscommunicate. God is controlling the nature by delivering us from abject slavery to sin. However, Paul said that we have been given the Spirit as a foretaste of future glory, and that it is a downpayment leading to the "redemption of the purchased possession" Eph. 1:14.

It's a growth thing.

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (ie from sin, which is what it's all about) hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

What we need is teaching, and that comes by "grace" and grace is distinguishable from "law" because Moses doesn't guide us into salvation from sin, it accuses. It is a schoolteacher in that it leads to the living teacher which is Christ. Those who are perfect do not need a teacher, and we are not perfect.

However, being imperfect does not mean we need to be partially under law and partially under grace. It's when we chop up Moses into pieces, and throw out some and keep some other parts, that we lose all the wine completely. I would rather be under Moses completely rather than mix law with grace, and mix letter with spirit, and then lose everything. If we live by SOME of Moses, we are indebted to live by ALL of Moses.

What I am saying is, let's get out of Moses and get into grace.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2009, 08:16:30 PM
I don't know what to reply. I said my things. I have no clue what it is/feels like to have God all in all.

I understand it's positive but that's it. So it's not a helpful answer for me.
You wrote "within man controlling man's nature" another thing beyond my grasp. If we are under full control of God we are all the same. And we are not we anymore. We don't even have our own thoughts. Don't ask me for any proof but somehow I don't think that's all in all.
But this (for me minor) issue is sidetracking the thread. So people continue where you left off.

Hey, I think I get what you're saying. I was just thinking about this last night actually. Think about really young children.... they are still pure-minded (but ignorant) but if you look at their basic character, how pure minded they are... that's kind of a clue. They are not all the same, are they? No they are all each different little people with their own minds.

This is probably not making sense and now I have to leave for work... but I'll come back later tonight and explain better what I mean...

peace..

Quote from: sparrow on August 26, 2009, 08:29:16 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2009, 08:16:30 PM
I don't know what to reply. I said my things. I have no clue what it is/feels like to have God all in all.

I understand it's positive but that's it. So it's not a helpful answer for me.
You wrote "within man controlling man's nature" another thing beyond my grasp. If we are under full control of God we are all the same. And we are not we anymore. We don't even have our own thoughts. Don't ask me for any proof but somehow I don't think that's all in all.
But this (for me minor) issue is sidetracking the thread. So people continue where you left off.

Hey, I think I get what you're saying. I was just thinking about this last night actually. Think about really young children.... they are still pure-minded (but ignorant) but if you look at their basic character, how pure minded they are... that's kind of a clue. They are not all the same, are they? No they are all each different little people with their own minds.

This is probably not making sense and now I have to leave for work... but I'll come back later tonight and explain better what I mean...

peace..

Yes, it makes sense, Sparrow.  God loves diversity.  Just look around at the world he created.

What is all the same is evil.  Evil just keeps doing the same thing over and over and over...

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 08:12:45 PM
9 Is that blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have been saying that God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God. 10 When did it happen? Was it after Abraham was circumcised, or before? It was before he was circumcised, not after! 11 He was circumcised as a sign of the covenant God had made with him. It showed that his faith had made him right with God before he was circumcised.

   So Abraham is the father of all believers who have not been circumcised. God accepts their faith. So their faith makes them right with him. 12 Abraham is also the father of the circumcised who believe. So just being circumcised is not enough. Those who are circumcised must also follow the steps of our father Abraham. He had faith before he was circumcised.

13 Abraham and his family received a promise. God promised that Abraham would receive the world. It would not come to him because he obeyed the law. It would come because of his faith, which made him right with God.

14 Do those who obey the law receive the promise? If they do, faith would have no value. God's promise would be worthless. 15 The law brings God's anger. Where there is no law, the law can't be broken.

16 The promise is based on God's grace. The promise comes by faith. All of Abraham's children will certainly receive the promise. And it is not only for those who are ruled by the law. Those who have the same faith that Abraham had are also included. He is the father of us all.

--Rom 4

Wow!  This was quickened to me just now for the first time.   It's incredible how the scriptures must have the light of the Holy Spirit shining on them for us to understand.  And funny how we don't get the light shined on all the scripture in one fell swoop! 

Anne, amazed!   :girlheart:

Quote from: Seth
I know that John asked those questions TC, but the problem came in when you asked whether or not we are breaking the "moral standard" which you say is the 10 commandments. That is not the measuring stick by which I would establish the answers to those questions. The moral standard is the ENTIRE LAW, not 10 commandments. John understood that which is why his questions are all about whether or not CHRIST is within.

Your questions 1-6 are all about what WE do in relation to the supposed "moral standard" which you think are the 10 commandments. If I use those commandments to see if I am following them, then I would be establishing my OWN righteousness.

The point of faith is NOT to delete morality, but it is meant to bring the Spirit's righteousness into us.

When that happens we are NO LONGER UNDER the 10 commandments or any other commandment within the ENTIRE law. The whole thing is a shadow of Christ. Once I have the body, I no longer live by the shadow that the body casts. I have no problem with people asking "do you do this" or "do you do that." But I do have a problem when people ask me that in relation to living under 10 commandments. 

Seth,
How marvelously God has allowed you to explain this about the SHADOW OF CHRIST!   I get so excited when the lights come on for me!  :Sparkletooth:

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 29, 2009, 07:26:26 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2009, 08:12:45 PM
9 Is that blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have been saying that God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God. 10 When did it happen? Was it after Abraham was circumcised, or before? It was before he was circumcised, not after! 11 He was circumcised as a sign of the covenant God had made with him. It showed that his faith had made him right with God before he was circumcised.

   So Abraham is the father of all believers who have not been circumcised. God accepts their faith. So their faith makes them right with him. 12 Abraham is also the father of the circumcised who believe. So just being circumcised is not enough. Those who are circumcised must also follow the steps of our father Abraham. He had faith before he was circumcised.

13 Abraham and his family received a promise. God promised that Abraham would receive the world. It would not come to him because he obeyed the law. It would come because of his faith, which made him right with God.

14 Do those who obey the law receive the promise? If they do, faith would have no value. God's promise would be worthless. 15 The law brings God's anger. Where there is no law, the law can't be broken.

16 The promise is based on God's grace. The promise comes by faith. All of Abraham's children will certainly receive the promise. And it is not only for those who are ruled by the law. Those who have the same faith that Abraham had are also included. He is the father of us all.

--Rom 4

Wow!  This was quickened to me just now for the first time.   It's incredible how the scriptures must have the light of the Holy Spirit shining on them for us to understand.  And funny how we don't get the light shined on all the scripture in one fell swoop! 

Anne, amazed!   :girlheart:

That's wonderful!  Now you know what sparked the Protestant reformation.  Martin Luther had the same experience when he finally got his hands on the New Testament and saw that we are justified by faith--not by works, birthright, money, or anything else--just faith. 


"This doctrine [justification by faith] is the head and the cornerstone. It alone begets, nourishes, builds, preserves, and defends the church of God; and without it the church of God cannot exist for one hour.... For no one who does not hold this article – or, to use Paul's expression, this 'sound doctrine' (Titus 2:1) – is able to teach aright in the church or successfully to resist any adversary . . . this is the heel of the Seed that opposes the old serpent and crushes its head. That is why Satan, in turn, cannot but persecute it."

--Martin Luther




29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

--Mat 11

Molly,

I can't easily explain what I saw that I'd not seen before, so I guess I won't make an attempt to do so.  Sometimes even when something is quickened to me, I can't explain it to anyone.   Of course I knew already that we are justified by faith.   But it's not by my faith that I am justified, but the faith of the Son of God.   And those who don't know they are justified are nevertheless justified as far as God is concerned.  The journey into Christ's riches is the experience of learning what has been given to us in Him, rather than trying to figure out how we can get the riches.   There is a lot of gold I've been reading in many of these threads.   Thanks to all who take the time to express what has been shown to you.  I'm grateful for all of you who share your treasures.  Out of our bellies flow the rivers of living water.   :icon_flower:

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 29, 2009, 12:17:04 PM
Molly,

I can't easily explain what I saw that I'd not seen before, so I guess I won't make an attempt to do so.  Sometimes even when something is quickened to me, I can't explain it to anyone.   Of course I knew already that we are justified by faith.   But it's not by my faith that I am justified, but the faith of the Son of God.   And those who don't know they are justified are nevertheless justified as far as God is concerned.  The journey into Christ's riches is the experience of learning what has been given to us in Him, rather than trying to figure out how we can get the riches.   There is a lot of gold I've been reading in many of these threads.   Thanks to all who take the time to express what has been shown to you.  I'm grateful for all of you who share your treasures.  Out of our bellies flow the rivers of living water.   :icon_flower:

Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to imply you didn't already know that.  When you said that passage was quickened to you, I suddenly saw Martin Luther jumping up from the desk where he had been pouring over his Latin texts  and throwing his hands in the air.  I pictured the moment that he was quickened by that very concept.  And, the world was changed...

So I wanted to share that.

These things aren't just intellectual ideas to us, are they?  Something inside of us changes.  It's like God is switching on some new DNA lol--and we can suddenly see some part of Him that we couldn't see before.  What a Wonderful God we serve! 

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 30, 2009, 05:47:38 PM
Too bad Martin Luther didn't also see how to prevent the horrible blood bath that was had between the Protestants and the Catholics.   I suppose history has been forever replete with blood though. 

When I picture Martin Luther, I picture him nailing his thesis to the door (as the story is told), but also I've read a lot of disgusting things written about the man.  Who knows what he was really like in person?   He could not have been the only one to understand faith and grace - the invisible church had been around since the time of Jesus ascending to God.

Anne

"Disgusting"?  lol  Now we are talking about something else.  You cannot lay the bloodbaths at the feet of Luther, who did nothing more than tell the truth, a truth which liberates all peoples everywhere.  Lay that at the feet of the 'ten year olds' who refuse to accept truth even when it is in front of their noses, and thus, refuse to act on it until it is no longer escapable for them, at which point they explode in a temper tantrum of blood--in both cases displaying the worst characteristics of a child in an adult body.  Lay that at the feet of those who knew the truth and suppressed it.

I'm not saying that Luther was blameless or had the entire truth, but, what he had was golden, and he made sure he placed it in the hands of the whole world at great peril to himself.  The fact that we can read the Bible for ourselves in our own language and decide for ourselves what God has to tell us, the fact that we can even read, that such a large percentage of the population is literate, the fact that we live today in the freedom given to us by the Protestant reformation---Lay that at the feet of Martin Luther.




The Luther Bible by reason of its widespread circulation facilitated the emergence of the modern German language by standardizing it for the peoples of the Holy Roman Empire, an empire embodying most of present day Germany. It is considered a landmark in German literature.

Martin Luther has been quoted as referring to himself as an insignificant "bag of worms." Although he never occupied any high official position in the new church, it is clear that he was a vastly significant individual.[9] The first generation of Lutherans regarded him as the Wundermann, one who was called for, and sent by, God.[10] In 1534, Luther completed one of the most significant documents of the Reformation, his translation of the Bible in the vernacular. The center of Luther's achievement and influence were clearly religious as the ordinary layman could now read the word of God for himself. Due to his translation, the Bible managed to extend its spheres of influence towards German nationalism, liberation, education and could be utilized as a catalyst towards international Protestantism.[11]

Luther's significance was largely due to his influence on the emergence of the German language and nationalism. This importance stemmed predominantly from his translation of the Bible into the vernacular, which was potentially as revolutionary as canon law and the burning of the papal bull.[12] Luther's goal was to equip every Christian in Germany with the ability to hear the Word. Thus, by 1534 he completed his translation of the old and new testaments from Latin into the vernacular, one of the most significant acts of the Reformation.[13] Although Luther was not the first to attempt this translation, his was superior to all its predecessors. Previous translations contained poor German and were that of Vulgate, (translations of translations) rather than a direct translation to German text.[12] Luther sought to get as close to the original text as possible but at the same time, his translation was guided by how people spoke in the home, on the street and in the marketplace.[14] Luther combined his faithfulness to the language spoken by the common people to produce a work which the common man could relate to.[15] This aspect of Luther's creation led German writers such as Goethe and Nietzsche to thoroughly praise Luther's Bible.[16] The fact that the new Bible was printed in the vernacular allowed it to spread rapidly as it could be read by all. Hans Lufft, a renowned Bible printer in Wittenberg printed over one hundred thousand copies between 1534 and 1574 which went on to be read by millions.[17] Luther's Bible was virtually present in every German Protestant's home, and there can be no doubts regarding the vast biblical knowledge attained by the German common masses.[18] As a testament to the vast influence of Luther's Bible, he even had large print Bibles made for those who had failing eyesight.[16] German humanist Johann Cochlaeus depicted this notion perfectly as he complained that

"Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity."[19]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible

Thank goodness for Martin Luther!
Three cheers an' thankful prayers!
Those who wanna' put Mr. Luther at duh back of duh bus haven't a klu who wud be drivin' duh bus instead now ... believe me! Mr. Luther stopped duh Pope Driver from drivin' us all off a cliff.
:icon_joker:

I have removed my post because I refuse to get involved in this divisive discussion.   Please remove my quoted text from your post, Molly.  Thank you.

anne