1 Corinthians 15:20-28 questions

[beartheweak]

I was reading this link: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html and I came across two things that appear to be a bit of a stretch of scripture. Can you guys help me figure out a better interpretation? I will first post the paragraph I have disagreements with, then I will list my two disagreements.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that there are three classes of orders that will be made alive. First, Christ, the first fruit. The word "first fruit" is singular in the Greek, not first fruits plural as in the King James Version. Second, they that are Christ's at His coming (Greek, parousia, appearing). This class includes all the Christians dead or alive. (See 1 Thess. 4:13-18) The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end." This includes the residue of all mankind who died in Adam. This is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. Therefore, these scriptures teach that all mankind who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ and I repeat, this is not resurrection. Unfortunately, many translations put a period between the second and third order of being made alive. The Greek does not have a period here. (1 Cor. 15:23,24) It is supplied by some translators.

1) I agree that the Greek word used for "first fruit" is singular, but that doesn't mean it is only speaking of one person. It could mean to use "first fruit" as a group of people- sort of like how someone would classify "the wicked" as a group of people. The reason why I am leaning toward "first fruit" referencing a group, and not a single person (Jesus), is because if Jesus were one of the acclaimed three classes (see above quote from article) to be resurrected (or given eternal life) then we are admitting that Jesus is somehow in need of being resurrected right now. Is this a legitimate question or am I missing something? I guess one could say that Jesus already was resurrected, but it seems as though Paul is speaking of the end times, not a chronological account through history spanned by over 2000 years.

2) When the author says:

The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end."

Here is 1 Cor. 15:24: "then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power".

To claim that "the end" is a group of people really seems to me to be a stretch. The Greek word used there is "telos" for "end". Never in scripture is that personified to reference a person or group. It always seems to be used as describing something along the lines of being "the last event" of something ( http://biblesuite.com/greek/telos_5056.htm ). Additionally, the Greek word "hotan" is used which translates as "when" which also seems to me to force "end" to be read as a period of time/event. This would be kind of like Paul using an unclear metaphor since he referenced the first two groups, Christ (or perhaps the dead believers) and Christ's (perhaps alive) believers. Why wouldn't Paul also just say "and the third group are all the rest of the people" if he really meant "the end" as a third group?

Do you guys have any wisdom regarding a better understanding of these scriptures? Thanks!

[Lazarus Short]

Sometimes, a different translation can shed light on a problem.  I pulled out my Ferrar Fenton Version, and it opened up to the very page on which was I Corinthians 15:20-28.  Could that mean something?

Here's verse 20:  "...Christ has been raised from the dead, a Fore-runner of the sleepers."

and verse 24:  "Then will be the perfection, when He delivers up the Kingdom to the God and Father..."

In these verses, I see only one resurrection mentioned, in verse 21:  "For since by man death exists, by man a resurrection from death also exists." 

You will have to look elsewhere to figure it all out.  God hides things here and there, so we have to read, read, read, to find it, and we have our minds renewed in the process.

For what it's worth, I was taught this:

The first resurrection is of the overcomer believers, at the coming of Christ.  It is foreshadowed in the OT by the barley harvest festival.

The second resurrection is of the non-overcomer believers, at the end of the millennium.  It is foreshadowed in the OT by the wheat harvest festival.

The third resurrection is of the non-overcomer non-believers, at some other future date.  It is foreshadowed in the OT by the grape harvest festival.

[reFORMer]

After granting each of us to be in our own exclusive place, I have considered it to refer to 4 general categories: 

1 Cor. 15^23-24

"But every man in his own order:  1.) Christ 2.) the firstfruits; 3.) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  4.) Then cometh the end..."

It begins with stipulating "each man in his own classification."  Nobody is the same as somebody else.  We are all unique, even though there are several broad categories, or ranks.

[marie glen]

Sometimes, a different translation can shed light on a problem.  I pulled out my Ferrar Fenton Version, and it opened up to the very page on which was I Corinthians 15:20-28.  Could that mean something?

Here's verse 20:  "...Christ has been raised from the dead, a Fore-runner of the sleepers."

and verse 24:  "Then will be the perfection, when He delivers up the Kingdom to the God and Father..."

The first resurrection is of the overcomer believers, at the coming of Christ.  It is foreshadowed in the OT by the barley harvest festival.

The second resurrection is of the non-overcomer believers, at the end of the millennium.  It is foreshadowed in the OT by the wheat harvest festival.

The third resurrection is of the non-overcomer non-believers, at some other future date.  It is foreshadowed in the OT by the grape harvest festival.

hi! do you have a verse for a 3rd resurrection? I know at the end of the age, there's two reapings.. those by the one like a Son of man on a cloud, as John saw it in vision (from a distance?) and another by an angel with a sharp sickle (allegory) where the clusters of the vine are thrown into the winepress (code for Har-megeddon) (rev 14:14-20 part of one of 4 bk of rev inserts)

1st resurrection at Jesus' return: 1 thess 4:13-17; 1 corinth 15:20-23;49-58; mt 24:29-31; 2 thess 1:7,8; rev 20:4,5b,6

2nd resurrection: rev 20:5a(7-10);11-14

:smile: thanks..  .....wait a minute! I think the answers in the 1st and original post! (dah?) :laughing7:

[marie glen]

I was reading this link: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html and I came across two things that appear to be a bit of a stretch of scripture. Can you guys help me figure out a better interpretation? I will first post the paragraph I have disagreements with, then I will list my two disagreements.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that there are three classes of orders that will be made alive. First, Christ, the first fruit. The word "first fruit" is singular in the Greek, not first fruits plural as in the King James Version. Second, they that are Christ's at His coming (Greek, parousia, appearing). This class includes all the Christians dead or alive. (See 1 Thess. 4:13-18) The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end." This includes the residue of all mankind who died in Adam. This is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. Therefore, these scriptures teach that all mankind who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ and I repeat, this is not resurrection. Unfortunately, many translations put a period between the second and third order of being made alive. The Greek does not have a period here. (1 Cor. 15:23,24) It is supplied by some translators.

1) I agree that the Greek word used for "first fruit" is singular, but that doesn't mean it is only speaking of one person. It could mean to use "first fruit" as a group of people- sort of like how someone would classify "the wicked" as a group of people. The reason why I am leaning toward "first fruit" referencing a group, and not a single person (Jesus), is because if Jesus were one of the acclaimed three classes (see above quote from article) to be resurrected (or given eternal life) then we are admitting that Jesus is somehow in need of being resurrected right now. Is this a legitimate question or am I missing something? I guess one could say that Jesus already was resurrected, but it seems as though Paul is speaking of the end times, not a chronological account through history spanned by over 2000 years.

2) When the author says:

The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end."

Here is 1 Cor. 15:24: "then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power".

To claim that "the end" is a group of people really seems to me to be a stretch. The Greek word used there is "telos" for "end". Never in scripture is that personified to reference a person or group. It always seems to be used as describing something along the lines of being "the last event" of something ( http://biblesuite.com/greek/telos_5056.htm ). Additionally, the Greek word "hotan" is used which translates as "when" which also seems to me to force "end" to be read as a period of time/event. This would be kind of like Paul using an unclear metaphor since he referenced the first two groups, Christ (or perhaps the dead believers) and Christ's (perhaps alive) believers. Why wouldn't Paul also just say "and the third group are all the rest of the people" if he really meant "the end" as a third group?

I'm thinking I have to agree with you, I'm just not getting it! So I went over to "Biblegateway" dot com and grabbed the verses:

[these verses, to me, sound like phases]

1 Corinthians 15:22-28

Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%2015:22-28&version=KJV;NRSV;CEV;NASB;YLT - snipped/cut, wasn't so clear.. cept this 1st verse :smile:

22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 23 and each in his proper order,

:Chinscratch:
1 Corinthians 15:22-28

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

"22 Adam brought death to all of us, and Christ will bring life to all of us. 23 But we must each wait our turn. Christ was the first to be raised to life, and his people will be raised to life when he returns. 24 Then after Christ has destroyed all powers and forces, the end will come, and he will give the kingdom to God the Father." [oh! 1st, Jesus was resurrected, then 2nd, the resurrection of all believers at His return, and 3rd, another raising to incorruption and immortality at the 'end' when ALL things are made new.. after the millennium and its purpose, and what is commonly called judgment day, and its purpose]

"25 Christ will rule until he puts all his enemies under his power, 26 and the last enemy he destroys will be death. 27 When the Scriptures say that he will put everything under his power, they don't include God. It was God who put everything under the power of Christ. 28 After everything is under the power of God's Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son's power. Then God will mean everything to everyone."  :cloud9:

[Lazarus Short]

hi! do you have a verse for a 3rd resurrection? I know at the end of the age, there's two reapings.. those by the one like a Son of man on a cloud, as John saw it in vision (from a distance?) and another by an angel with a sharp sickle (allegory) where the clusters of the vine are thrown into the winepress (code for Har-megeddon) (rev 14:14-20 part of one of 4 bk of rev inserts)

1st resurrection at Jesus' return: 1 thess 4:13-17; 1 corinth 15:20-23;49-58; mt 24:29-31; 2 thess 1:7,8; rev 20:4,5b,6

2nd resurrection: rev 20:5a(7-10);11-14

:smile: thanks..  .....wait a minute! I think the answers in the 1st and original post! (dah?) :laughing7:

Marie, I think the verse you referenced (Revelation 14:14-20) is the answer.  First, this harvest of grapes is over-ripe, past its best, and less to be desired.  Second, this harvest is thrown into the winepress, not just of God, but of God's anger.  God is NOT happy with this vintage and harvest.  I see these as the non-overcomer non-believers, you might say, the spiritual riff-raff of this world.  They will be saved, but they will come into as good an inheritance as those in the first two resurrections.  Other than that, I can not say.

[marie glen]

I think you're right.. to die in one's sins will not be as joyful of a resurrection[#3] as [#1]Christ's or [#2] the resurrection of all believers at His coming.. But I'm thinking eventually it will catch up..?  :gsmile:

[reFORMer]

I see at least 4 orders...

"But every man in his own order:  1.) Christ 2.) the firstfruits; 3.) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  4.) Then cometh the end..." (1 Cor. 15^23-24)

It begins with stipulating "each man in his own classification."  Nobody is the same as somebody else.  We are all unique, even though there are several broad categories, or ranks.  It will be glorious when all mankind is included and we each function in our places, related to God and one another.  The Spirit is working to bring all thing into unity and re-head them with Christ.

"...in all wisdom and prudence making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him) to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ -- both that in the heavens and that on the earth -- in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will..." (Eph 1^8-11 Concordant Literal Version)

This is the way the KJV has vs 10:  "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ..."

This making all things one and subjecting all to Him as Head is working behind the veil right now; but, it will become manifest, not only in promissory tokens as now, but in everything everywhere.  Do not underestimate God the Spirit.  It may be soon the next glorious phase of this comes into operation.  Remaining connected to the vine the fruit continues to develop until fully ripe.  What is within us will be revealed when our obedience to Him is complete.  Resurrection has to do with receiving a permanent physical attribute that is born of God and a simulation of Him.  We are not only regenerated spirits in the heavenlies, we are entities with deathless cosmic embodiment.  Our celestial and terrestrial aspects must come to liberty, ruling throughout the dimensions in which we exist, not by force, but by superior nature that brings the lesser into alignment with all good.  It is important that we recognize the connection this has with our becoming incorruptible.

[mplsfitter539]

Marie, I think the verse you referenced (Revelation 14:14-20) is the answer.  First, this harvest of grapes is over-ripe, past it's best, and less to be desired.  Second, this harvest is thrown into the winepress, not just of God, but of God's anger.  God is NOT happy with this vintage and harvest.  I see these as the non-overcomer non-believers, you might say, the spiritual riff-raff of this world.  They will be saved, but they will come into as good as inheritance as those in the first two resurrections.  Other than that, I can not say.

That's what I'm talkin about   :iagree: :banana:

[Elan]

It is indeed refreshing to read of effort being applied to understand the scripture and 1 Corinthians 15 in particular. I understand verse 20 through verse 28 as parenthetical to the context flow, a sidebar if you will, thus helping to provide a contextual beginning and end.

There is a widespread tendency to view the classes in verse 23 as pertaining to a resurrection sequence but they most certainly are not. The action (verb) that is applicable to verse 23 is found in the last word of verse 22. The Greek word is rooted in zOopoieO, but in this verse it is in the future tense ( zOopoiEthEsontai). KJV translates it as "shall be made alive", while the Concordant Literal Version as "shall be vivified". Either way, the classes detailed in verse 23, and maybe verse 24, pertain to future vivification, not resurrection. I believe the reason for vivification rather than resurrection is: vivification does not require a physically dead body, resurrection requires such a condition. Vivification can and does occur even while we are yet living. If you follow zOopoieO along in scripture you will discover this to be the situation, consider starting at about John 5:21. 

In verse 20 Christ is risen from the dead, additionally He is identified as the "firstfruit" of them that slept, a particular class of "the dead". Christ has been resurrected. There is no future resurrection and/or vivification for the man Christ Jesus.

In verse 21 a contrast between "death by man" and "resurrection by man" lays the groundwork for the forthcoming sequence of vivifications. The head of each creation of humanity is stated, then further identified in verse 22. In verse 22 a comparison between "all" in Adam die(present tense) and "all" in Christ "shall be made alive" (future tense). The new humanity in Christ commenced at His resurrection, this is reference point for the future tense. 

Verse 23 provides the sequence of vivification of the "all" in verse 22. These vivifications occur after His resurrection, thus the future tense use of (zOopoieO), in an orderly fashion, not by willy-nilly or all at once. Each is vivified in particular order/class (tagma-only here in the new testament).

Verse 23 indicates three "orders", the first two orders/classes are "aparchE" and "christos" (firstfruit and anointed). These are simply two unadorned nouns. It is best to use "anointed" rather than "Christ" (see caveat # 4 below). Christ has no possible future tense vivification – He is currently alive, as "beartheweak" has rightly observed. That there is a class/order called "anointed" may cause some challenges to usual interpretation, but the text better supports "anointed". "AparchE" and "christos" are typically jammed together in such a way that produces a untenable contortion of the text, such is not necessary. In the Greek text the definite article in "Christ the firstfruits" (KJV) is not present. That there is no indication of a time factor separating these two classes simply means that they can run concurrent within a time frame (or at least with some overlap), or that the class "christos" can be vivified at most any time, without reference to another timed event.

"Afterward" (epeita), in verse 23, does introduce an element of time, duration is uncertain but sequence is sure. After the "aparchE" and "christos" (firstfruit and anointed) vivifications comes the next vivification and it is inextricably linked to "the coming" (parousia) of Him. Of whom? Of Christos, not christos. Jesus Christ has a (parousia), "the anointed" class does not, thus Christos, not christos. This is group three. 

Verse 24 is introduced with "then"(eita), a time factor. After the vivification related to His (parousia) then a final vivification occurs at "the end"(telos). This fourth group receives vivification "when" some other "end"(telos) events come to fruition as given through verse 28.

By the end of verse 28 the "all in all" will have been vivified.

A few caveats:
1) In the new testament firstfruit (aparchE) is always singular.
2) Vivification (zOopoieO) does not necessitate resurrection, nor vice versa. Examples of vivification without an accompanying resurrection: John 6:63 has "....the spirit that quickeneth..." and 2 Corinthians 3:6 ".... but the spirit giveth life." Examples of resurrection without vivification (zOopoieO): The resurrections of Lazarus in John 11 and of Tabitha in Acts 9. John 5:21 has Father raising the dead and quickening while the Son quickens without raising the dead.
3) It would seem that the "firstfruit" order found in 1 Corinthians 15:23 is currently operative, has been since His resurrection. See Romans 8:23 (... the firstfruit of the spirit); Romans 16:5 (... firstfruit of Achaia unto Christ.); 1 Corinthians 16:15 (... firstfruit of Achaia...); 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (instead of "beginning" read "firstfruit"). These all were vivified while they were living on earth and all have since died.
4) To determine if Christos should read "Christ" or "anointed" seems to be a contextual related determination, not textual. This is with the understanding that "Christ" means "anointed" whether translated as "Christ" or "anointed". Revelation 11:15 would have better understanding if "his Christ" were translated "His anointed", that is to say, "the Lord's anointed".


Study with verification

[Ken]

Hello beartheweak,

I have an article here that will answer all of your questions:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Be sure to read all of the hyperlinked articles, too.

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

[WhiteWings]

I want to share my thoughts about the First Fruit part.
There were 3 harvesting 'blocks'.
1- Barley
2- Wheat
3- Wet harvest --> Grapes, pomegrates, citrus fruits

Does that mean there are only 3 harvests? I think it depends on how strict we look at it.

The very first sheaves of the barley were harvested by the priests themself. They searched the fields for a few prime quality sheaves just enough to fill a bowl they presented/offered to God the next day. Only after this offering the farmers were allowed to start harvesting.
So we could say there were 2 barley harvests. The main one by the farmers. A tiny one by the priests. (which some compare to a tithe)
Viewing it that way both Gary and you, beartheweak, the first part of the harvest is  singular but shortly after that the full harvest begins.
Perhaps the following is a some sort of proof for that.
There are quite a few parallels between Jesus' last day and that barley offering. (I'll give you+ my views if wanted).
Anyway we all know Jesus died and was resurrected a few days later. A tiny barley harvests equals a tiny amount of resurrection (read just one)
But we also are informed many graves were opened and the dead in them came alive.



Mat 27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.54Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"


Verse 52 seems to imply the saints got raised instantly at His dead. But verse 53 clearly shows the saints only started walking after His resurrection. We aren't told how long after His resurrection. It could well be when the farmers started regular harvest. But that's just speculation because I have no proof for the exact timing.

Please note that the tombs opened because of/during an earthquake. Verse 54 tells  us an earthquake occurred  while romans were guarding His tomb which obviously is an after the cross event. Depending on the doctrine one holds that's up to 3 days after His death.     

[WhiteWings]

I'm not entirely sure but I think the wheat harvest had some first fruits ritual too. If so perhaps the following list is acceptable:

1a] Barley Temple offering --> Jesus
1b] Main harvests --> Many saints
2a] Wheat first fruits --> The 12 touched by the "flames of Pentost?"
2b] New believers
3] Wet harvest

:2c:

[Tom]

I was reading this link: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html and I came across two things that appear to be a bit of a stretch of scripture. Can you guys help me figure out a better interpretation? I will first post the paragraph I have disagreements with, then I will list my two disagreements.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that there are three classes of orders that will be made alive. First, Christ, the first fruit. The word "first fruit" is singular in the Greek, not first fruits plural as in the King James Version. Second, they that are Christ's at His coming (Greek, parousia, appearing). This class includes all the Christians dead or alive. (See 1 Thess. 4:13-18) The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end." This includes the residue of all mankind who died in Adam. This is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. Therefore, these scriptures teach that all mankind who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ and I repeat, this is not resurrection. Unfortunately, many translations put a period between the second and third order of being made alive. The Greek does not have a period here. (1 Cor. 15:23,24) It is supplied by some translators.

1) I agree that the Greek word used for "first fruit" is singular, but that doesn't mean it is only speaking of one person. It could mean to use "first fruit" as a group of people- sort of like how someone would classify "the wicked" as a group of people. The reason why I am leaning toward "first fruit" referencing a group, and not a single person (Jesus), is because if Jesus were one of the acclaimed three classes (see above quote from article) to be resurrected (or given eternal life) then we are admitting that Jesus is somehow in need of being resurrected right now. Is this a legitimate question or am I missing something? I guess one could say that Jesus already was resurrected, but it seems as though Paul is speaking of the end times, not a chronological account through history spanned by over 2000 years.

2) When the author says:

The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end."

Here is 1 Cor. 15:24: "then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power".

To claim that "the end" is a group of people really seems to me to be a stretch. The Greek word used there is "telos" for "end". Never in scripture is that personified to reference a person or group. It always seems to be used as describing something along the lines of being "the last event" of something ( http://biblesuite.com/greek/telos_5056.htm ). Additionally, the Greek word "hotan" is used which translates as "when" which also seems to me to force "end" to be read as a period of time/event. This would be kind of like Paul using an unclear metaphor since he referenced the first two groups, Christ (or perhaps the dead believers) and Christ's (perhaps alive) believers. Why wouldn't Paul also just say "and the third group are all the rest of the people" if he really meant "the end" as a third group?

Do you guys have any wisdom regarding a better understanding of these scriptures? Thanks!

The word "vivified" used in the Concordant Version means immortalized or made alive in the sense that there will be no more death.

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

22 The words "even as'' mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (lThes.4:16; lCor.l5:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[marie glen]

I was reading this link: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html and I came across two things that appear to be a bit of a stretch of scripture. Can you guys help me figure out a better interpretation? I will first post the paragraph I have disagreements with, then I will list my two disagreements.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that there are three classes of orders that will be made alive. First, Christ, the first fruit. The word "first fruit" is singular in the Greek, not first fruits plural as in the King James Version. Second, they that are Christ's at His coming (Greek, parousia, appearing). This class includes all the Christians dead or alive. (See 1 Thess. 4:13-18) The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end." This includes the residue of all mankind who died in Adam. This is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. Therefore, these scriptures teach that all mankind who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ and I repeat, this is not resurrection. Unfortunately, many translations put a period between the second and third order of being made alive. The Greek does not have a period here. (1 Cor. 15:23,24) It is supplied by some translators.

1) I agree that the Greek word used for "first fruit" is singular, but that doesn't mean it is only speaking of one person. It could mean to use "first fruit" as a group of people- sort of like how someone would classify "the wicked" as a group of people. The reason why I am leaning toward "first fruit" referencing a group, and not a single person (Jesus), is because if Jesus were one of the acclaimed three classes (see above quote from article) to be resurrected (or given eternal life) then we are admitting that Jesus is somehow in need of being resurrected right now. Is this a legitimate question or am I missing something? I guess one could say that Jesus already was resurrected, but it seems as though Paul is speaking of the end times, not a chronological account through history spanned by over 2000 years.

2) When the author says:

The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end."

Here is 1 Cor. 15:24: "then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power".

To claim that "the end" is a group of people really seems to me to be a stretch. The Greek word used there is "telos" for "end". Never in scripture is that personified to reference a person or group. It always seems to be used as describing something along the lines of being "the last event" of something ( http://biblesuite.com/greek/telos_5056.htm ). Additionally, the Greek word "hotan" is used which translates as "when" which also seems to me to force "end" to be read as a period of time/event. This would be kind of like Paul using an unclear metaphor since he referenced the first two groups, Christ (or perhaps the dead believers) and Christ's (perhaps alive) believers. Why wouldn't Paul also just say "and the third group are all the rest of the people" if he really meant "the end" as a third group?

Do you guys have any wisdom regarding a better understanding of these scriptures? Thanks!

The word "vivified" used in the Concordant Version means immortalized or made alive in the sense that there will be no more death.

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

22 The words "even as" mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (lThes.4:16; lCor.l5:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I think I agree with Tom :Chinscratch:

I don't think Paul was given a full vision of 'the end', even as the scriptures seem to gloss over it (or that is to say, there is where I personally would put a "gap theory")

I believe what Paul was saying and has been agreed to here, Jesus as firstfruit(s), then all those that are His at His coming ("I will raise them up at the last day") which is of is course 1 th 4 and 1 cor 15, the 1st resurrection

Then Paul simply summarizes by saying "then comes the end" .."when all is given over to the Father" - so we can read all that occurs at that time in Rev 20:7,11-14,15 and 21:1-3

Rev 20:7 "After the end of the thousand years.."

2nd resurrection
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. ['gap' theory=500yrs judging/reviewing man's history]
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I think verse 13 is simply clarifying verse 12

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Chapter 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;

2 and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;

3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God

[fall holy days fulfilled: trumpets -> 10days/1000yrs later = DOA dead on arrival/day of(surprise!)atonement
   -> 5days/500yrs later = verse 20:15 -> tabernacles = "all" things new (note: verse 20:10 adversary in LOF 500 yrs now, the other 2 are institutions/theory of men active when 'seized')]
                      :Chinscratch:    "He wills all to be saved" the "elect" are no different than the non"elect" why should some require the LOF in order to be wooed by the Spirit of God? WHO can prevent HIS will? why are the "elect" saved via God's will, but the non, depends on their will????

why are some chosen/elect and some not? to have a drama (truth proving) you have to have different characters..?

[Tom]

I was reading this link: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html and I came across two things that appear to be a bit of a stretch of scripture. Can you guys help me figure out a better interpretation? I will first post the paragraph I have disagreements with, then I will list my two disagreements.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 teaches that there are three classes of orders that will be made alive. First, Christ, the first fruit. The word "first fruit" is singular in the Greek, not first fruits plural as in the King James Version. Second, they that are Christ's at His coming (Greek, parousia, appearing). This class includes all the Christians dead or alive. (See 1 Thess. 4:13-18) The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end." This includes the residue of all mankind who died in Adam. This is clearly taught in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. Therefore, these scriptures teach that all mankind who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ and I repeat, this is not resurrection. Unfortunately, many translations put a period between the second and third order of being made alive. The Greek does not have a period here. (1 Cor. 15:23,24) It is supplied by some translators.

1) I agree that the Greek word used for "first fruit" is singular, but that doesn't mean it is only speaking of one person. It could mean to use "first fruit" as a group of people- sort of like how someone would classify "the wicked" as a group of people. The reason why I am leaning toward "first fruit" referencing a group, and not a single person (Jesus), is because if Jesus were one of the acclaimed three classes (see above quote from article) to be resurrected (or given eternal life) then we are admitting that Jesus is somehow in need of being resurrected right now. Is this a legitimate question or am I missing something? I guess one could say that Jesus already was resurrected, but it seems as though Paul is speaking of the end times, not a chronological account through history spanned by over 2000 years.

2) When the author says:

The third class is referred to as "then cometh the end."

Here is 1 Cor. 15:24: "then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God even the Father when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power".

To claim that "the end" is a group of people really seems to me to be a stretch. The Greek word used there is "telos" for "end". Never in scripture is that personified to reference a person or group. It always seems to be used as describing something along the lines of being "the last event" of something ( http://biblesuite.com/greek/telos_5056.htm ). Additionally, the Greek word "hotan" is used which translates as "when" which also seems to me to force "end" to be read as a period of time/event. This would be kind of like Paul using an unclear metaphor since he referenced the first two groups, Christ (or perhaps the dead believers) and Christ's (perhaps alive) believers. Why wouldn't Paul also just say "and the third group are all the rest of the people" if he really meant "the end" as a third group?

Do you guys have any wisdom regarding a better understanding of these scriptures? Thanks!

The word "vivified" used in the Concordant Version means immortalized or made alive in the sense that there will be no more death.

22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

22 The words "even as" mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (lThes.4:16; lCor.l5:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

I think I agree with Tom :Chinscratch:

I don't think Paul was given a full vision of 'the end', even as the scriptures seem to gloss over it (or that is to say, there is where I personally would put a "gap theory")

I believe what Paul was saying and has been agreed to here, Jesus as firstfruit(s), then all those that are His at His coming ("I will raise them up at the last day") which is of is course 1 th 4 and 1 cor 15, the 1st resurrection

Then Paul simply summarizes by saying "then comes the end" .."when all is given over to the Father" - so we can read all that occurs at that time in Rev 20:7,11-14,15 and 21:1-3

Rev 20:7 "After the end of the thousand years.."

2nd resurrection
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. ['gap' theory=500yrs judging/reviewing man's history]
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I think verse 13 is simply clarifying verse 12

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Chapter 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;

2 and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;

3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God

[fall holy days fulfilled: trumpets -> 10days/1000yrs later = DOA dead on arrival/day of(surprise!)atonement
   -> 5days/500yrs later = verse 20:15 -> tabernacles = "all" things new (note: verse 20:10 adversary in LOF 500 yrs now, the other 2 are institutions/theory of men active when 'seized')]
                      :Chinscratch:    "He wills all to be saved" the "elect" are no different than the non"elect" why should some require the LOF in order to be wooed by the Spirit of God? WHO can prevent HIS will? why are the "elect" saved via God's will, but the non, depends on their will????

why are some chosen/elect and some not? to have a drama (truth proving) you have to have different characters..?

I think, if 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is read in context, it is clear that "thereafter the consummation" is not just stating that there will be a consummation but that at the consummation certain things will happen among which is the final class of people will be vivified.

I think "Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" needs to be considered in the context of "Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." And "thereafter the consummation" needs to be considered in the context of "whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death." "The Firstfruit, Christ" has been vivified, but there is a final class of people that will not be among "those who are Christ's in His presence." They are those who will be vivified when? Paul explains when by saying, "thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." Then Paul explains why. "For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet." Then Paul explains how. "The last enemy is being abolished: death." So it is simply by abolishing death that those condemned to the second death will be vivified. Then Paul elaborates and explains the ultimate goal of God. "For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all."

Christ alone has been not only resurrected but vivified which means made alive in the sense of being immortalized or no longer subject to death. Other folks were resurrected in scripture but not vivified.

Christ alone has immortality.

"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)

Believers will be immortalized when we are snatched away to meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), and unbelievers condemned to "the second death" will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-26).

"Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory." (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)

The church says most people will be tortured in "hell fire" forever by an angry god, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that the living God who is love may be all in all.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is all." (Romans 11:36)

According to God's will we in the body of Christ are chosen to be "saved" from death for eonian life in grace through faith, but those who are not will be "saved" from death at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. That is why God is the savior of all mankind.

"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)

We are all subjected to death to cause us to fully appreciate the blessing of life just as we are subjected to evil to fully appreciate good and just as we are subjected to darkness to fully appreciate the light. God's will is always good and intended to demonstrate his love for all mankind even when we don't understand his ways. I think the best way to understand as much as possible is to forget church doctrine and get into the word of God accurately translated to reveal the truth that God is not going to burn most of mankind in fire forever but is going to fill all mankind with love at the consummation of the eons. Thank God for the truth of the word of God. Be consoled that all your loved ones will ultimately be with you in the light of God's love never to suffer or die again. That is the true evangel, the "well-message," or good news that the church claims to tell but distorts into a horror story. Get out of the church, and get into the word of God.

It is all according to God's will.

"in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11)

It is simply God's will that some are chosen for eonian life and some are not, but God is merciful. Those who experience the second death will be reposing. They will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." That only applies to the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet.

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10) These three all must be spirit beings not subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie.

Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)

The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

So even though the god of the church is not, the God of the word of God is merciful even to those who are judged before the great white throne. They will simply be reposing during the "eon of the eons" while we are doing God's will. Then, at the consummation of the eons, all the dead will be made alive in the sense that nobody will ever be subject to death again.

You ask, "why are some chosen/elect and some not? to have a drama (truth proving) you have to have different characters..?" I think you're right that the eons are a "drama" of man's experience of life as a demonstration of God's love for the whole universe to see. I think even Satan was chosen for a specific purpose according to God's will, and even he will be among the "all" who are reconciled to God.

We may not always understand God's ways, but I trust his wisdom.

"by faith are we walking, not by perception" (2 Corinthians 5:7)

"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)

I say thank God we have the word of God to know the truth despite the distorted perception we have experienced from church doctrine.

"God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html


[attachment deleted by admin]

[WhiteWings]

Dan 9:25-27 (AKJV)
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

Then Paul explains why. "For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet." Then Paul explains how. "The last enemy is being abolished: death."

I think death in that verse isn't a concept but the angel Abaddon.

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue has his name Apollyon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

[marie glen]

Exactly! Except for one thing..

Of what you wrote, I like this best:

The church says most people will be tortured in "hell fire" forever by an angry god, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that the living God who is love may be all in all.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

...we can see that the two - Cor 15 and end Rev 20 with beginning of Rev 21, are in agreement..

Where you and I differ, Tom, is i find myself thinking the 2nd resurrection is not the consummation of all things.. the 2nd resurrection, judgement day "judged according to what's written in the scrolls"

"death is thrown into the LOF" - as utimately the fire of God consumes all which is not truth (utimate truth and what is God's design and blueprint, which can only follow His nature) -

I agree the dead repose, just as we know 1 thessalonians 4 says, and those of the 2nd resurrection imo scripture says will repose until the 2nd resurrection of Rev 20:12,13.

What I'm saying is there's a space of time between the 2nd resurrection which of course is the raising of all not yet born again, and the consummation. Jeremiah 32:37 says "I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?" Jesus told the Pharisees unless they repented, they would "die in their sins". The 2nd resurrection, for a time, is an inferior resurrection to the first. Until, the consummation. I don't see 'judgment day' as a day of pronouncing sentence and then cleansing nor punishing. God hardens whom He will.

...what I try to say is, if the spring holy days prophesied (and were fulfilled by) the first advent of Jesus, then (surely?) the fall holy days prophecy (and will be fulfilled by) the long second advent of Jesus, which the Bible - even with 1 Cor 15 and Rev 20, and the prophets and the prophet(Jesus' words) - sort of skims over.

THREE peaks of the long 2nd advent, represented by:
trumpets = His return/1st resurrection (10 'days'/1000yrs later)
day of, atonement = 2nd resurrection/day of judgement,review, a short age,ending with (5 'days'/500yrs later)
tabernacles = consummation

God's proving drama/the totality of history, proving His love for all and that He is all in all and also writing upon every heart and mind and psyche, that one cannot stray from God (after all He is Life itself, and also Perfection, one cannot 'go their own way', cannot differ from Him, in any teeny tiny way. It can't be done. If it were to be done it could only end in a self destructive puff of smoke. [The lesson of what could happen, but because of Him, doesn't. Yet made evident and undeniable, to all. This knowing of good from evil (life from not life). What works? I'd say. From what never can.]

[Tom]

Dan 9:25-27 (AKJV)
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

Then Paul explains why. "For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet." Then Paul explains how. "The last enemy is being abolished: death."

I think death in that verse isn't a concept but the angel Abaddon.

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue has his name Apollyon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

It is my understanding that "Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the submerged chaos or the abyss.

"thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:24-26)

I realize "death" is personified as the last enemy, but I think "death" is a power that will be nullified at the consummation of the eons.

"20 Christ was not the first one to be roused from the dead. The prophets, and the Lord Himself, recalled some to life before He Himself suffered death. But He is the first One to be made alive beyond the power of death. All the others were roused to die again. He is the First fruit of those who are vivified, and die no more.

21 Death's entrance and exit are both through a man. Adam and Christ are the channels, respectively, through which death and resurrection reach all mankind.

22 The words "even as'' mark a close parallel. The universality of death, through Adam, is beyond question. "Thus also" we are told, "in Christ, shall all be vivified." This will not occur simultaneously but in three distinct classes at widely separated intervals of time. Christ, the First fruit, is already alive at God's right hand. We who are Christ's will be made alive at His presence. This includes His coming to the air for the believers of this economy (lThes.4:16; lCor.l5:52; Phil.3:21) and His coming to Israel before the thousand years. The rest, who are not included in "those who are Christ's," must wait until the consummation, when death, the last enemy, is abolished. This will not occur until the eons have run their course and Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father. At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.

25 The reign of Christ is so beneficent, it brings mankind to such a state of perfection, that all further need of the restraints of government vanishes. Rule implies insubordination, and is unnecessary where there is perfect subjection. Rule is a temporary expedient to cope with evil. When evil is banished rule also retires. The effects of evil for mankind are concentrated in death. When the universe has been purged of all other evil, then death itself becomes inoperative and yields up its victims. Not till then is it true that all are made alive in Christ.

27 The universality of Christ's subjection of all under His feet is evident from the one exception—God Himself.

28 God is All in Christ now. He will be All in His saints when we are made alive. He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. What a marvelous outcome of God's purpose! What a Christ we have, Who can accomplish such a complete reconciliation! The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 263)

[attachment deleted by admin]

[marie glen]

P.S

..I believe no persons will be cast into the LOF. Not only not for eternity, but not for an age, not for a day.. not for a moment..

except what all experience upon earth as trials..both now and during the 'day' of the 2nd resurrection/judgment,review..

[marie glen]

At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.

He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all."

1st resurrection, believers "put on immortality and incorruption".. then at consummation, the rest, yes? and death the last enmity is thrown into the LOF, the 2nd death, meaning death = Gone

[Tom]

Exactly! Except for one thing..

Of what you wrote, I like this best:

The church says most people will be tortured in "hell fire" forever by an angry god, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that the living God who is love may be all in all.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

...we can see that the two - Cor 15 and end Rev 20 with beginning of Rev 21, are in agreement..

Where you and I differ, Tom, is i find myself thinking the 2nd resurrection is not the consummation of all things.. the 2nd resurrection, judgement day "judged according to what's written in the scrolls"

"death is thrown into the LOF" - as utimately the fire of God consumes all which is not truth (utimate truth and what is God's design and blueprint, which can only follow His nature) -

I agree the dead repose, just as we know 1 thessalonians 4 says, and those of the 2nd resurrection imo scripture says will repose until the 2nd resurrection of Rev 20:12,13.

What I'm saying is there's a space of time between the 2nd resurrection which of course is the raising of all not yet born again, and the consummation. Jeremiah 32:37 says "I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?" Jesus told the Pharisees unless they repented, they would "die in their sins". The 2nd resurrection, for a time, is an inferior resurrection to the first. Until, the consummation. I don't see 'judgment day' as a day of pronouncing sentence and then cleansing nor punishing. God hardens whom He will.

...what I try to say is, if the spring holy days prophesied (and were fulfilled by) the first advent of Jesus, then (surely?) the fall holy days prophecy (and will be fulfilled by) the long second advent of Jesus, which the Bible - even with 1 Cor 15 and Rev 20, and the prophets and the prophet(Jesus' words) - sort of skims over.

THREE peaks of the long 2nd advent, represented by:
trumpets = His return/1st resurrection (10 'days'/1000yrs later)
day of, atonement = 2nd resurrection/day of judgement,review, a short age,ending with (5 'days'/500yrs later)
tabernacles = consummation

God's proving drama/the totality of history, proving His love for all and that He is all in all and also writing upon every heart and mind and psyche, that one cannot stray from God (after all He is Life itself, and also Perfection, one cannot 'go their own way', cannot differ from Him, in any teeny tiny way. It can't be done. If it were to be done it could only end in a self destructive puff of smoke. [The lesson of what could happen, but because of Him, doesn't. Yet made evident and undeniable, to all. This knowing of good from evil (life from not life). What works? I'd say. From what never can.]

I think it is important to distinguish between "resurrection" and being "vivified" at the consummation of the eons. Those who stand before the great white throne have not been "vivified" because they will be condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire."

"11 The Great White Throne judgment has no place for those who are Christ's, for they have all been made alive and have been enjoying eonian life for more than a millennium.

Temple Section—Jerusalem

12 This is not a "general" judgment, though it approaches nearer to it than any other. Only the dead appear before this throne. Those who are Christ's will have been made alive at His presence more than a thousand years before (1Co.15:23). Those who are His will not die during the thousand years, nor can they be hurt by the second death. Hence only those who have not believed in Christ appear in this judgment. They will all receive their just deserts, according to their acts, during the period between their resurrection and second death. Hence they are condemned, for all fall short of God's standard. They are not vivified, or made alive, as the saints are, by a better resurrection, hence they die again.

13 Thus all evil is segregated in the lake of fire, where Satan and the wild beast and the false prophet already are (20:10). "This is the second death" defines the lake of fire. Those who have been raised from death return to the same state in the second death. The only immunity from condemnation lies in having a place in the scroll of life." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 404)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

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[Tom]

At the great white throne judgment no one is vivified or made alive. Hence it is passed over. Authority and power are still in exercise in the new earth. The throne of the Lamb is there. The consummation must be later, for sovereignty is abolished before death, the last enemy. The consummation is at the close of the eonian times, at the close of the last eon which is presented to our view in the final vision of the Unveiling.

He will be All in all when death is abolished, at the consummation. The Corinthians denied the resurrection of any: Paul insists on the vivification of all."

1st resurrection, believers "put on immortality and incorruption".. then at consummation, the rest, yes? and death the last enmity is thrown into the LOF, the 2nd death, meaning death = Gone

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

This all happens before the consummation of the eons. The "lake of fire" is "the second death," and that is what will be abolished at the consummation of the eons effectively vivifying all mankind.

[Tom]

P.S

..I believe no persons will be cast into the LOF. Not only not for eternity, but not for an age, not for a day.. not for a moment..

except what all experience upon earth as trials..both now and during the 'day' of the 2nd resurrection/judgment,review..

"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)

When scripture says "the unseen were cast into the lake of fire," it is referring to the dead souls who are "unseen." The Old English "hell" from the Greek "hades" literally means "unperceived" or "unseen." It refers not to the place of church mythology but the state of dead souls, but, since the dead souls will be reposing, they will not be tortured alive in fire. They will simply be dead until they are vivified.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[jabcat]

Good, helpful comments today.   :thumbsup:   At what point in there do you see kolasis aonian?