"Is Jesus The Narrow Way?" A small step toward Christian Universalism

[JulieTang84]

fortytworc, I think the most safe conclusion is that we don't know. :laughing7:
I'm writing down thought as discussion points. I give my thoughts a good possibility to be true but most certainly won't say I'm convinced.

it was not Jesus. Is that accurate?

To answer your question more directly: Yes Jesus is the way.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

But as so often we can't take that literally. Jesus isn't a road neither is He a gate or a lamb. He's normal looking person. Not an animal (lamb) or a thing (road, gate).
Neither is He the truth; which is a concept. He is however the ultimate Teacher and Follower of the truth.

And that symbolic meaning opens some possibities. "I am the way" could mean "What I teach will save you". Lots of things God say are laws/commands. Looking at it that way it could be law related because following God's law certainly is a big part of being saved.
So I again want to point to my replies #21 and #23

Well said Whitewings  :gimmefive:


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[fortytworc]

For me this has been an excellent discussion. Everyone has expressed goodness , patience, and a desire to seek Truth as best we can together on this side of forever. My guess would be that many come from a background of instuction in the Scriptures that almost (if not outright) demanded blind obedience and acceptance of the already established doctrines. And many of them were good and up to this point correct and profitable. Just don't get outside the box. Don't ask too many questions. The old wineskins were still around for a reason. With age came wisdom which was untouchable. Untouchable meant uninstructable. Having run past races with speed and flexability the thought of a challenge has been scoffed at. No thought has been given to the possibilty of becoming stiff, inflexable, winded. Indeed much of earlier teaching needs to be held onto. The tendency has been that the old rejects the new outright as too young to know anything worth attention. The new scoffs at the old as totally senile and out of touch. If we can retain the good of the old and embrace the new with just enough caution to let truth in and keep error out maybe we can run the race together. Helping each other with the cooperation of a relay race where working together brings the whole team victory, and all are recognized rather than winning a 100 yard dash which recognizes one winner. ( I realize the analogy breaks down here as the dash winner certainly contributes to the overal team victory). The short of it is: This has been stretching and good for me. A good experience. I still want any input that anyone has. As far as I am concerned this thead is open ended for at least my edification, and I hope others.

[jbertonbounds]

I may be reading you guys wrong but it looks like we may at least agree that whatever the narrow way, hard to find and hard to follow path was it was not Jesus. Is that accurate?

No.  It is not accurate to say that we agree that Jesus is the metaphorical gate or door of Matthew 7.14 and Luke 13.24.  I made it clear in my replies that I did not agree that the narrow gate/door is Judaism (or the law).  I made it clear that I believe JESUS is the gate.  SEE MY REPLY BELOW.

My post, post #35:

I'm going to be bold and disagree with you, with all due respect and humility.  I do not believe Jesus was saying that Judaism was the narrow gate.  Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  A gate is a way in, like a door, a passageway.  Jesus said "through me," such as one might pass "through" a gate.  There was a narrow gate, and a broad gate.  One was narrow, symbolizing a low traffic count.  The other was broad, symbolizing that most will use it instead.  IMO, this is a metaphor symbolizing how mankind will come to the Father - a few will find the Jesus gate, but most will go through the other way, the lake of fire.

Now there does seem to be a contradiction between these two passages of scripture:
Mat 7.12-14 -  "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.  For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
AND
Mat 11:30 - "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

HOWEVER, IMO:
Upon further study, these passages are used in different contexts.  The gate passage is used to indicate the quantities of people who will enter each gate.  The broad gate is easy because all you have to do is nothing - just follow your self-will, take care of ole number one, and live it up.  The narrow gate is hard to find because, as all of you should know, the truth is hidden for the seekers.  And it is difficult for a person to overcome self-will.  This difficulty has nothing to do with the yoke passage.  The yoke passage is used to indicate that Jesus freed us from the burdens of the man-made precepts the world so loves to create and enforce upon God's children (as with the Pharisees).  The yoke is the guiding component of the plowing outfit used on oxen.  Jesus audience was very familiar with oxen, plows, yokes, and beasts of burden.  They understood that Jesus was talking about bearing a heavy burden of Pharisee rules, and they longed to lighten that burden. 

[WhiteWings]

jbert,

Could you agree that the 10 commandments are the gate?
Or any other set of laws that are God given and not butchered by mankind?

[fortytworc]

jbb: OK .Glad I asked just to make sure. Thanks

[fortytworc]

Not trying to beat a dead horse (or any animal dead or alive), but I'm still wanting someone to decisively blow my ship out of the water.
I have been working on trying to condense and clarify what I have been attempting to propose. Here goes:

Consider that the narrow gate and door is the Law.
Why?
1.) In Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:12-14 Jesus tells people to strive to enter in at the narrow gate or door which leads to life.
2.) To strive means to work very hard.
3.) We are saved by grace through faith and not by works.
4.) If Jesus was that narrow gate or door He would not tell anyone to work very hard to enter by it.
Therefore:
5.) The narrow gate is not Jesus.
Thus my proposal that the narrow gate is the Law.

[WhiteWings]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/'is-jesus-the-narrow-way'-a-small-step-toward-christian-universalism/msg163453/#msg163453

That's my view. So I think the gate is the law. But a different law as you think it is.
That's the only way I can reconcile all verses.

[dajomaco]

The battle is for your Mind .
The battle is for the readers mind.
How well does your mind know you?
How well does your mind know Jesus?

The difference by definition is the definition
of wide and narrow.

When you have all the knowledge and all the understanding
that you can possibly have Love is still a mystery.
Yet everyone is aware of true Love and respond to it naturally.
The spirit leads where we do not know .

[sheila]

 it was anarrow gate..fulfilling the law..as Jesus did...He sweat blood fulfilling it.[loveof God and

brother as himself] he willingly laid his life down.Hedidthe 'worksofthe Father'as the armofsalvation

of God.

   striving against sin to the extent of spilling your blood..to do the will of God.....

  being perfected by learning obediance through suffering..


    Now by His knowledge my servant willjustify many[thse many that took the wide path

    todestruction.[all in Adam that die.].the lost He shall bring bck..   those whodidnotfind the narrow

way.Father  forgive them..theyknow NOTwhat theydo.sheep without a shepherd to lead them in

the way....surely the way of obediance ..IS A ROAD LESS TRAVELED...........

IF THE rOYAL LAW IS THE GATE...THAT LEADS US TO CHRIST. THEN WE HAVECOME UNTO OUR

SHEPHERD..ANDHE SHALL LEAD US OUT ONE BY ONE..IN A WAY WE HAVE NOT GONE BEFORE

John10;7I am the door o f the sheep .He who give His life up for us..is thetrueshepherd

     we have befre us an open door of tender compassion in Christ...through that door..obediance

  unto death...all those who died inAdam..shall receive thefreegiftof mercy andgrace and eternal

  life.

[jbertonbounds]

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life.  Jesus is the narrow gate.

Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted.  The law does not lead to life.

Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life.  Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."

Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life.  Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.

Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.

Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose?  Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us!  He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life?  By the law?  Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed.  Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life, so righteousness is not by the law.  Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive.  It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life.  Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect.  Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.

[irenic-inkwell]

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life.  Jesus is the narrow gate.

Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted.  The law does not lead to life.

Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life.  Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."

Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life.  Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.

Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.

Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose?  Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us!  He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life?  By the law?  Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed.  Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life, so righteousness is not by the law.  Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive.  It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life.  Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect.  Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.

jbertonbounds, thank you, so much, for the scriptures and for your comments after each scripture.  So very helpful to me personally as I am working diligently on a few ongoing projects and this post saves me much time in searching... I've read/printed/reread it a few times and find something NEW each time I read it.


Just recently I read a definition of the word "hope" as used in the scriptures... really like it.  Hope=desire combined with expectation.  I'll post the entire article later next week, it's entitled "Believing in Your Hope" by Ray Prinzing...  just wanted to thank you today for a wonderful post.  God's richest blessings on all your efforts to serve Him...  Irene (my real name!!)

[WhiteWings]

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.
The key of that verse is "works of the law" not the law itself.

Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life.  Jesus is the narrow gate.
The law also made Jesus' saving possible. Jesus wasn't overturning the law. The law is a schoolmaster.

Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted.  The law does not lead to life.
See above plus note that sin was present.

Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life.  Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.
See above

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."
God personally gave that law to Moses. It's can't be untrue. The main difference is that nobody but Jesus was to correctly interpreted that Law.

Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life.  Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.
Take note that a whole load of human made laws were added

Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.
See previous answer.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.
But Jesus still preached law. Commandment to obey God and love your neighbor are two of them. He wasn't big of theft and murder either.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.
Note the law was weakened by the flesh. Meaning hum,ans messed it up.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.
For sure that verse isn't about lawlessness. So there still are laws.

Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.
I already answered that one

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose?  Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us!  He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life?  By the law?  Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed.  Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life,
The law was not contrary God's promises (restoration/life)
so righteousness is not by the law.  Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.


Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive.  It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life.  Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect.  Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.

Skipped a few verses jbert  :winkgrin:
But I think that doesn't matter for what I'm trying to prove.
a]
God gave the law. Did God gave death?

b]
Read the Faith, works and Grace thread. Especially the works part. It's of great importance in several verses you quoted.

c]
Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.



So my main point is that none of your verses are wrong. Quite obvious because they are from the Bible. But imo your interpretation is wrong. The main issue is not differentiating between the origin of the various laws and the types of works.

:gimmefive:

[JulieTang84]

Not trying to beat a dead horse (or any animal dead or alive), but I'm still wanting someone to decisively blow my ship out of the water.
I have been working on trying to condense and clarify what I have been attempting to propose. Here goes:

Consider that the narrow gate and door is the Law.
Why?
1.) In Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:12-14 Jesus tells people to strive to enter in at the narrow gate or door which leads to life.
2.) To strive means to work very hard..) We are sharder y grace through faith and not by works.
4.) If Jesus was that narrow gate or door He would not tell anyone to work very hard to enter by it.
Therefore:
5.) The narrow gate is not Jesus.
Thus my proposal that the narrow gate is the Law.

A little late to this party, but Bette is my understanding.

Jesus said to become as little children for a reason. The love without fear, trust without question and faith as solid as rock. Children have this towards their early patents, very few adults have the same towards their heavenly Father.

The gate isn't narrow. Just their love, trust and faith.

Prob 3:5 Lean not unto your understanding......

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

[fortytworc]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/'is-jesus-the-narrow-way'-a-small-step-toward-christian-universalism/msg163453/#msg163453

That's my view. So I think the gate is the law. But a different law as you think it is.
That's the only way I can reconcile all verses.

Thank you WW

[fortytworc]

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
The law brings wrath, not life.  Jesus is the narrow gate.

Romans 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Where there is the law, sin is counted.  The law does not lead to life.

Romans 5:20
Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more
The law increased trespass, not life.  Grace leads to life through Jesus, the narrow gate.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
"Through" Jesus – as in "through the narrow gate."

Act 13:38-39
38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed[c] from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
The law condemns, not bringing life.  Jesus – the narrow gate - frees, bringing life.

Romans 7:5
For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
The law arouses the sinful passions – that's not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
The new way – in the Spirit of Jesus; the old way – the law, from which we are released.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
We are set free from the law of sin and death, which was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Romans 8:3-4
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The law could not make us righteous.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Life comes through Christ, the end of the law, Christ, the narrow gate.

Romans 10:1-9
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Moses wrote about the law, BUT...we are saved be through faith in Jesus, the narrow gate.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
The law is the power of sin, not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 2:16
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
A person is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
So then, did the Christ die for no purpose?  Life does not come through the law, but through faith in Christ who died for us!  He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Well, how did you receive the Spirit of life?  By the law?  Or by faith in the narrow gate, Jesus?

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
Those who rely on the law are cursed.  Doesn't sound to me like the law is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
The Way is Jesus – the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us
The law brings the curse; it's not the narrow gate.

Galatians 3:21
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
But there was no law given that could bring life, so righteousness is not by the law.  Therefore, the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
The law held us captive.  It is not the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 3:24
So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
After Christ came, he became the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Jesus redeemed those under the law; He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 4:21
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Paul urges people to desire to be under Christ, not the law, because the law did not lead to life.  Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Galatians 5:4
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Paul condemns those who wanted to be under the law, because he knew that the law was not the narrow gate that leads to life.

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are under Christ – He is the narrow gate that leads to life.

Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith
Righteousness does not come from the law – the law is not the narrow gate that leads to life, Jesus is.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
The law made NOTHING perfect.  Hope is through Jesus, through whom, like a narrow gate, we draw near to God.

jbert
Thank you so much. Very thorough cocerning the law. This took some time and I'll keep it for future use. Still not sure on this point: If Jesus is the Narrow Gate what is the "strive to enter"? I very much appreciate your time and effort.

[WhiteWings]

Strive to enter is imo the difference between knowing and doing.

Matthew 19:16-26
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Rich Young Ruler

16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 Then he *said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man *said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be [a]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

The young ruler found the gate. Jesus told him exactly what to do. Give all his stuff away. He failed to enter because  he couldnt let go of his stuff.

[jbertonbounds]

Skipped a few verses jbert  :winkgrin:
I purposely skipped some of the verses containing the phrase "the law" because they did not pertain to this discussion.

But I think that doesn't matter for what I'm trying to prove.
a]
God gave the law. Did God gave death?
YES.  Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...

b]
Read the Faith, works and Grace thread. Especially the works part. It's of great importance in several verses you quoted.

c]
Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is no then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.
The answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic!  Jesus said in Mat 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."  You cannot come into the kingdom of heaven through the law alone, but through Jesus, the narrow gate that leads to life!  Living out the love of Jesus IS the essence of the law, which Jesus fulfilled by becoming the sacrifice for sin that the law requires.  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.  John 14:6 - "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  "Through me" - as in "through the narrow gate that leads to life."  Not "through the law."  The law makes us aware of sin, then condemns us to death.  It alone does not lead to life.  The law in itself leads to death!  It is not the narrow gate.


So my main point is that none of your verses are wrong. Quite obvious because they are from the Bible. But imo your interpretation is wrong. The main issue is not differentiating between the origin of the various laws and the types of works.
I am speaking of "the law," not "the origin of the various laws and the types of works," since that is the topic of this whole discussion (except that it started out as "Judaism", then halfway through the discussion, it was changed to "the law").

:gimmefive:

[WhiteWings]

First I want to correct a mistake

Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is no yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.

The answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic!

Please give me an example.

[WhiteWings]

 

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?

[WhiteWings]

So my main point is that none of your verses are wrong. Quite obvious because they are from the Bible. But imo your interpretation is wrong. The main issue is not differentiating between the origin of the various laws and the types of works.
I am speaking of "the law," not "the origin of the various laws and the types of works," since that is the topic of this whole discussion (except that it started out as "Judaism", then halfway through the discussion, it was changed to "the law").

Without discussing the origin of the law this whole discussion becomes useless. Law and works cannot be seen separately.

Judadism is the/a law too. Truckloads of them.

[JulieTang84]

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?

Fulfilled means completed. The Law is now whole, covering both the physical as well as the spiritual.Jesus taught in Spirit and is through  the Spirit that he teaches still. This is why the ten commandments were reduced to only two.

Farher is love and the spiritual laws are instructions on how to become love.

Love is EVERYTHING!!!

LOVE Julie  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?

Fulfilled means completed.

Nope try again  :banana:

It simply means "explained correctly".

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136779/#msg136779

[JulieTang84]

The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect,

All laws? Certain type of laws?
Col 2:14  The law is not done away with.  It is still in full effect, yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

yet it has been completely fulfilled by Jesus.

What does fulfilled mean?

Fulfilled means completed.

Nope try again  :banana:

It simply means "explained correctly".

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136779/#msg136779

Okay if Christ did not complete (fulfill) the law then please provide full and complete details of the additional laws thatyou seem privy too.

You are mistaken WW, Christ bought the laws to actuallity, meaning he actualized the laws. No more laws are needed because all Laws are now Christ and Christ is the pathway to Father, there is no other requirement, no other law.

:HeartThrob:

Christ Loves Father so completely they are as one. Christ Jesus also loves his brothers and sisters utterly and completely just as he does himself. He has fulfilled the requirements of the law Completely. We are to do the same.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

First I want to correct a mistake

Did Jesus do away the law?
- If the answer is no then salvation is possible while under the law. So law doesn't equal death.
- If the answer is no yes then everything goes. Murder, theft and rape can't be punished because only by law we are held accountable for them.

The answer is NO. Your points here are unscriptural, meaning you have no scriptural basis for them, thus they are your own logic!

Please give me an example.
Well your points did not make sense because of the mistake you just corrected.  But consider these passages:

Galatians 5:16-24 - 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If you are led by the Spirit, you are redeemed, therefore, not under the law.  To be "under the law" is to be condemned.  Believers are redeemed by Jesus, not the law.  The law condemns us - whether "under the law" or not.  Condemns us?  Yes.  No problem, though.  Jesus redeemed us!

and Galatians 4:4-6 - 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

and Romans 3:21-25 - 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

All people, whether "under the law" or not, fall short of God's glory, and are condemned by the law because the law requires the death penalty for sin.  But all are redeemed by Jesus' sacrifice.

[WhiteWings]

Okay if Christ did not complete (fulfill) the law then please provide full and complete details of the additional laws thatyou seem privy too.

There were 2 sets of laws in Jesus' time. The written law that came directly from God on Mt. Sinai and through His prophets.

Man added the oral laws. They were called oral laws because they weren't written down until long after Jesus died.
The oral laws were also called a "hedge". More laws were added to prevent breaking God's law. So if the man made law was accidently broken then God's law usually was not. A made up example. God says it's forbidden to lift more than 40 pounds on Sabbath day. Man turned that into 20 pounds just in case the 40 pounds were accidentally not measured well enough and were 1 gram to heavy. Silly example but it's clear I think. That whole oral law went way overboard. Law  upon law upon law was added.
It became unlivable. Even today I must add. A while back a Jew went to court because he was fined because he wasn't able to show his ID. His defense was he wasn't allowed to work on Sabbath and carry an ID because that's work.
So there were 2 sets of laws. To complicate things even more both together often were simply called "the law".
Jesus hinted to the above with "It is written", "You heard is said", "The prophets" etc.
The proof all the laws were not done away is very simple.
Is, according to Jesus, murder, adultary or blasphemy forbidden? If one of them is answered with yes then laws still exist.

You are mistaken WW,

I really doubt that.

Christ bought the laws to actuallity, meaning he actualized the laws.

That has nothing to do with fulfil. Plus not one jot will pass away. and yet many Christians seem to believe a huge part of the OT is done away.

So I think anyone opposing me doesn't really understand my view because nobody here will say murder is allowed.
Unfortunately I have no clue how to explain it, if it's still not clear.
:sigh: