Tentmaker Forum

Hi all, just been thinking on a couple things.

I am really wrestling with a couple ideas, before I would have opposed, but now strangely am opening up to:

1. Pre-existence
2. Heaven as more than just a state of mind, but an actual place. Not on a physical rock somewhere in space, but outside the universe
3. We see God as soon as we die

Especially with the last one, if indeed these are true, that it is because of Jesus resurrected from the dead, and not in spite of, that make them true. Thinking mainly on NDE's, but also comments made here over the years, and also that preaching to the dead topic lately. I also do want to stay Scriptural, and also looking at references to the "shadow of death" made me feel this way too.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

I lean toward all those things.  However, not sure exactly what it all looks like.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 31, 2018, 11:25:16 PM
Hi all, just been thinking on a couple things.

I am really wrestling with a couple ideas, before I would have opposed, but now strangely am opening up to:

1. Pre-existence
2. Heaven as more than just a state of mind, but an actual place. Not on a physical rock somewhere in space, but outside the universe
3. We see God as soon as we die
.

Especially with the last one, if indeed these are true, that it is because of Jesus resurrected from the dead, and not in spite of, that make them true. Thinking mainly on NDE's, but also comments made here over the years, and also that preaching to the dead topic lately. I also do want to stay Scriptural, and also looking at references to the "shadow of death" made me feel this way too.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

I believe (recently came to believe) in the first and last statements, unsure of what you mean by the second.

And yes I believe Jesus is key.

I'll search for my scriptural support when I have a moment.

A key verse on this:

1 Corinthians 15
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

But, now this is coming to mind, when Christ lowered Himself:

John 17
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hebrews 2
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Phillipians 2
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Pre-existance is indeed true, would that mean that we were lowered too?

And, these things assume consciousness in the Spirit. Maybe someone can help with that too.

Quote from: This one random person on the internet
link=topic=14976.msg210899#msg210899 date=1535759346
A key verse on this:

1 Corinthians 15
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

But, now this is coming to mind, when Christ lowered Himself:

John 17
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hebrews 2
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Phillipians 2
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Pre-existance is indeed true, would that mean that we were lowered too?

And, these things assume consciousness in the Spirit. Maybe someone can help with that too.

Hi GodisLove

I mean that, people like Ray teach that Heaven is only a state of mind. Meaning when we are in heaven, it means we are not in a physical place, but in a state of mind.

Recently I am starting to question that, if it is more than just a state of mind. That if it indeed is also a place, that it may be outside of this universe.

Who remembers the play called 'Our Town'?

They say that the universe is in the mind of God.

I believe that is where we are all going....to the mind of God.

As Paul wrote, "In Him we live and move and have our being."

And, I do believe we see God when we die. When we see Him, there
can be no more illusions or lies. The Truth will set us free.

D.

Quote from: Dandelion on September 01, 2018, 03:29:35 AM
Who remembers the play called 'Our Town'?

They say that the universe is in the mind of God.

I believe that is where we are all going....to the mind of God.

As Paul wrote, "In Him we live and move and have our being."

And, I do believe we see God when we die. When we see Him, there
can be no more illusions or lies. The Truth will set us free.

D.


D.

:dsunny:

Another thing...

What would you call "sleeping" in Christ? Would dreaming have something to do with it?

Quote from: MusicLover123 on August 31, 2018, 11:25:16 PM
Hi all, just been thinking on a couple things.

I am really wrestling with a couple ideas, before I would have opposed, but now strangely am opening up to:

1. Pre-existence
2. Heaven as more than just a state of mind, but an actual place. Not on a physical rock somewhere in space, but outside the universe
3. We see God as soon as we die

Especially with the last one, if indeed these are true, that it is because of Jesus resurrected from the dead, and not in spite of, that make them true. Thinking mainly on NDE's, but also comments made here over the years, and also that preaching to the dead topic lately. I also do want to stay Scriptural, and also looking at references to the "shadow of death" made me feel this way too.

Thoughts would be appreciated.

For me ..... the "shadow" of death and the "fear" of death are the same thing

though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil

a valley is a low place between two high places, in which the two high places can be seen as where we came from (pre-existence) and where we are going (returning to God), this low place, physical existence, is where the shadow/fear of death exists and it exists in the minds and hearts of men.

Think of it this way, if someone says "I don't want to die", their mindset is connected to their physical body, they think that who they are "is" this physical body ..... not understanding that they are a spirit "in" a physical body and the spirit does not die, it is transferred from one state of existence to another state of existence, from the physical to the spiritual.

This physical body is not who we are, it is what we are "in", remove us (the spirit) from the physical body and the physical body dies

Life is in the spirit ..... and the spirit is in the body ..... remove the spirit from the body and the body dies because both the spirit and life are removed at the same time ..... the spirit and life are inseparable because "the Spirit is life" and "Life is the Spirit"

And I myself believe, we have never been separated from the Spirit ..... we only "think" we have been by our own way of thinking or by being convinced by someone else that we are or have been ..... and this is what I believe is the curse that was reversed, the curse of our own way of thinking ..... because now His Spirit testifies with our spirit, in other words, His Spirit convinces our spirit we have been given life through the work of Christ upon the cross.

Remove the shadow/fear of death from a person and death no longer has power over that person, in other words:

I will fear no evil even though I walk through the valley of the fear of death, this world is the valley in which the fear of death exists everywhere and is this not what we are to free the captives from?

And for me ..... a spirit that thinks it has not been given Life is "asleep" in Christ, for they have not been awakened to this truth

:2c:

Thanks Rick.

What would the soul be then? I've heard on here before that they are they same thing. What about you?

On Strong's, if I recall correctly, it says something about wind/air for it.

Jugghead, good post

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 02, 2018, 01:07:38 AM
Thanks Rick.

What would the soul be then? I've heard on here before that they are they same thing. What about you?

On Strong's, if I recall correctly, it says something about wind/air for it.

I myself see them as both, but in a spiritual way of thinking we can see this example in the physical. What I mean by this is: when Adam became a living soul, it is speaking of "a breathing creature" (physical), but he was also "a spirit creature"

And with an understanding that this physical body needs air to stay alive, our spirit needs the breath of God to stay alive, but unlike the physical body, our spiritual body does not actually breath.

when our spirit opens its mouth, it is not to exhale air, it is to exhale words ..... and what I believe actually happens in a spiritual sense is that when our spirit opens its mouth to speak what it exhales is its soul, its soul in the form of words, which is what I also see in God the Father, with Him being a Spirit when He opens His mouth to speak, what is exhaled is His Soul and that Soul is Christ, for Christ is the Soul of the Father, the breathing creature, the "Word became flesh" the manifestation, the exact representation of the Father sent to this physical place.

But also with an understanding that the soul is also "heart" for Christ is the Heart of the Father and also that the Father is the Mind of Christ ..... the two working together as one to bring about the alignment of our own heart and mind with His.

at this point, this is what I believe and it is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me

Alright, was thinking of checking for something, and it seems to be just like how I thought it would be.

Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knewH3045 thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. 

H3045
יָדַע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
Total KJV occurrences: 946

A lot of baggage on this definition, but just look at the ones I have underlined. Is this "looking into the future" or seeing face to face?

CLV Jer 1:5 `Before I form you in the belly, I have known you; and before you come forth from the womb I have separated you, a prophet to nations I have made you.
ISV Jer 1:5  "I knew you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart for me before you were born; I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.
YLT Jer 1:5  'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.

Rotherham Jer 1:5  Before I formed thee at thy birth, I took knowledge of thee, And before thy nativity, I hallowed thee,—A prophet to the nations, I appointed thee.

Rotherham is the odd one out. But is it the better translation for this?

Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall returnH7725 unto God who gave it.

H7725
שׁוּב
shûb
shoob
A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: -  ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back) X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), X repent, requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.
Total KJV occurrences: 1058

This one has baggage too, but look at the underlined portions.

This, again, assumes consciousness in the Spirit. A couple verses with "groaning in the Spirit"

Joh 11:33  Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, did groan in the spirit, and troubled himself, and he said...

Joh 11:38  Jesus, therefore, again groaning in himself, cometh to the tomb, and it was a cave, and a stone was lying upon it,

Joh 12:27  'Now hath my soul been troubled, and what? shall I say—Father, save me from this hour? —but because of this I came to this hour

Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 

Question. Is "groaning in yourself" the same as groaning in your Spirit? What about your soul being troubled? Is that the same thing, or something else?

And, what about the Resurrection? Is it going from unconsciousness to consciousness, or as I read from an older topic here, a "completion" where we are finally completed and perfected? If we are conscious before that, does that make it useless? At least in thinking of the former idea, and not the latter. Maybe some stay dead, and others are alive before it?

Hi ML,

What I see in John 11:33-36 is probably different than what others may understand. What I see is a correlation of this event and day one in Genesis. What I mean by this is:

Joh 11:33  When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 
Joh 11:34  And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 
Joh 11:35  Jesus wept. 
Joh 11:36  Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 

When Jesus groaned in the spirit, it is the same as "darkness was upon the face of the deep" ..... and with the words "and was troubled" is the same as "and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" and this is because the original meaning of the word "troubled" means to stir or agitate which is the moving or stirring of water in a physical sense, but in the spiritual sense it is the moving of the Spirit.

Now with verse 34 the question is asked "Where have ye laid him?", yes we can see this in the literal sense because of the event that had taken place, the death of Lazarus, but it is a death of his body, not his spirit. The original meaning of the word "laid" means to place and again, yes, this can be a question of where is the body of Lazarus at, but I see it as a question directed at the very heart of the people there .....

and what I mean by that is: it is a question of "where is he placed?" directed at the hearts and minds of the people there, meaning where is Lazarus placed in the hearts and minds of the people, which of course is that he has been placed among the dead in their hearts and minds, whereas we know the spirit of Lazarus was with God at that point, absent from the body present with the Lord.

Now with the answer that was given by the people (or person) "come and see", this is what caused Jesus to weep and that is because He knew that Lazarus was placed among the dead in their hearts and minds ..... rather than among the living (present with the Lord). They did not understand what God uses death for, to bring the spirit back to Him, for even the apostle Paul says "to die is gain". I see that the reason Jesus wept was for the people there, them not understanding the purpose of physical death.

and with what the Jews comment afterward was, it was their own misinterpretation of what the tears meant, they did not see that those tears were for them in their misunderstanding and not for Lazarus because Jesus knew where Lazarus was, and yes, Jesus loved Lazarus, that is a truth in what they said, but not understanding the whole picture is what they missed because Lazarus had received a great gift, that gift being what Paul refers to as "who shall deliver me from the body of this death" ..... Lazarus was delivered, but what I also see in this is: those tears were for Lazarus in that Jesus had to bring him back into that body of death to be removed once again, but knowing that Lazarus was given an understanding of what was to come.

and do we also understand that Lazarus now has a full understanding of the death of the physical body and that he himself no longer has a fear of that death? and that in itself was "Let there be light" in the heart and mind of Lazarus (day one) in which he can also understand what is from above and what is of below (day two) and also the appearing of the dry, a dry understanding (an understanding without the Spirit) and the seas (the wet) in the fullness of His Spirit (day three), in which day three is a resurrection .....

and Lazarus, I believe, could now fully comprehend the statement by Christ "I am the resurrection and the Life"

my  :2c:

 :Chinscratch: ...I believe Jesus was pre-existent & the only straight out from God one..

I always end up thinking it's not what God has created, but is creating. I don't understand the whole outside of time thing. I just cannot think quite like that.. i do know if there is space or matter - unless totally unmoving..? - which I don't think is possible? Which brings us to the other question of heaven as a "place"? Does that mean there is time there? I guess that would be yes.

I do think heaven is a place.. I imagine the angels ministering (for good or evil) in the heavens.. and upon Earth (tho now? since war in heaven - Rev 12 - after Jesus' crucifixion, and between 70a.d. and the inquisitions, are no longer allowed access to the heavens). I think of the angels - spirit beings like 'winds' (metaphor, as they are actually 'less' than wind?)

I think of the angels as being created some time after the Son emerged.. God having decided to have a Son and create and sustain everything in and through Him.

So I don't believe in my own pre-existence (or others). Except perhaps as some sort of thought of God. I guess I figure God decided to, in a way, replicate Himself.. but with both He and the Son being always preeminent. And of vast more glory.

I'm a little divided about whether we see God as soon as we die. I think of it as possible, yet why gather up Elijah and Moses before death if that's the case? :dontknow:

I kind of see or imagine, the verse "with what body shall they rise?" as a literal rising as like rising in the morning from sleep.. and so with sort of body shall they rise? .. And the verse "first is the natural, then is the spiritual" ..the more spiritual body..

But! It will seem like right after death.. So one way or the other, really makes little difference! I have a very good friend who's son committed suicide last year. She believes he comes to her and others in dreams.. she believes he goes around helping others, who are still living. I would not abuse her if that notion whatsoever! Not with anyone else.

But that all sounds disorganized and kind of messy to me. Which of course could just be my own bias?/fussiness? Also, I guess I don't really expect to 'physically' or literally "see" God in a fashion much different than we see Him now! UNTIL that great day when He becomes all in all, has made new all things, and now in heavens and earth made new, He will now "tabernacle with mankind upon Earth". What sort of seeing will that be? :dontknow: His brilliance will make it so sun and moon are not needed for light.. :cloud9:

If 'souls'/psyche/vitality of believers live during death, if it's outside of time? How would that work? Are we there too? Since it is outside of time? That's completely too spacey for me..  I think I'm a brick and mortar kind of gal! :laughing7:

Quote from: marie glen on September 02, 2018, 09:52:15 PM
I guess I don't really expect to 'physically' or literally "see" God in a fashion much different than we see Him now! Until that great day when He becomes all in all, has made new all things, and now in heavens and earth made new, He will now "tabernacle with mankind upon Earth". What sort of seeing will that be? :dontknow: His brilliance will make it so sun and moon are not needed for light.. :cloud9:

I mean, it does say that Jesus has seen the Father, so I imagine that we will too, once we are like Him. We are going to be brothers and sisters of Christ, and sons and daughters of God. How exciting is that going to be?

Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation

Just thinking on this verse, if we did exist before, that would add another meaning to this verse.

Job 15:7  Art thou the first man that was born? or wast thou made before the hills? 

(speaking of wisdom)
Pro 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 
Pro 8:23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 
Pro 8:24  When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 
Pro 8:25  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 
Pro 8:26  While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 
Pro 8:27  When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 
Pro 8:28  When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 
Pro 8:29  When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 
Pro 8:30  Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 
Pro 8:31  Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 

When is says I was brought forth, Does this also mean Christ? Remember, this is talking about before creation, as God needed wisdom to create it.

Also, talking about the sons of men, just thinking if that could have been us? Presuming that we did exist before too.

Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 
Job 38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Speaking of shadow of death, Jugg, I found that in Strong's, tracing H6757 to it's roots, the meaning of those words in there also trace to Genesis and the Spirit hovering over the face of the waters.

Oh, hey WhiteWings, remember you mentioned how some NDE's featured people "learning" with schools and stuff? That you would let me know where you found it?

Still waiting for that :)

Amen Jesus was there when God created.. or at least that's how it reads to me.. But either way, it SHALL be all glorious! :cloud9: And a very BIG part of knowing that is understanding He is able & 100% good and all knowing.. to know the real Him and his true attributes.

P.S, I don't know if you misunderstood me, I meant I'm not sure we shall see him "until" after all is said and done, after the millennium, Judgment 'day' and He has become all in all.

...maybe we pre-existed, got filled up with ourselves, and needed some real serious humbling. :gsmile:

There's a theory too that this all happened before - the gap in Genesis 1, between 1 and 2? (Idk.)
But without God's intervention to save. So all were lost. So I thought would Gid be willing, and able to stand the loss of all those persons?

...but maybe it was us! .. but then that sounds like - I can't think of the word.. the belief ppl live many lives.
And.. the Bible says "it's given to men once to die" so that can't be it..
The Mormons, I think, believe in human (souls) pre-existence.
:Peace2:

Here is another one that I am thinking of:

Ecclesiastes 9
10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave(Sheol), whither thou goest.

I'm thinking maybe it did change when Jesus was Ressurected. But, anyone else?

And, what about those who did not receive the promises?

Hebrews 11
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

I know there may be a couple others that could help out. Saw lastpost comment on this topic somewhat before, so maybe you have something to share.

I wasn't going to say what was in my mind regarding seeing God, as it departs from the normal tone of this forum. Yet I think to myself, well if it's what I believe and if I sound a fool, what is that anyway, it really doesn't matter among friends!

My opinion is that God can be seen on passing into the spiritual life, but what is seen is only what the viewer is capable of seeing at that point.

If the viewer has sought to do their duty with honesty and sincerity then that viewer will be overjoyed and overcome by their awakening into that life, their awakening – stunned by the beauty of it all, and the truth dawns upon the viewer that it was all true, that faith has been justified up to the hilt, and that no mind had ever conceived such wonderment.

The viewer can feel God both within and without in a manner that is breath-taking, and that feeling is also seeing with one's very being – seeing and knowing God in a deep and profound spiritual manner - knowing God, seeing God.

The revelation of Himself to His child can only be according to the capacity of receiving that revelation – and God knows that the only thing worth having is the revelation of Himself. This revelation of Himself includes not only becoming more and more like Christ, but feeling Christ in as much of His fullness as a child of God is capable of.

As the viewer progresses into more and more of the purity of God, so the viewer has a greater and ever greater view of God. There are billions of aeons in front and God, the Supreme Lord of all, gives spiritual gifts on a continual basis without end as the child is ready to receive them, as God is a generous Giver.

While in these dense bodies of molecular flesh, it is not possible to fathom even slightly what a viewer will know of God in the future Aeon of aeons. Life by definition must live, and growth and development must occur in one who lives continuously.

I do believe that there are aeons of activity ahead, and that activity is Service-based, as Service is the earnest desire of the child of God. This activity merges into an even fuller active contemplation of the great One God in a manner impossible to understand while we walk by faith in blindness in the valley of shadows.

There is no dreamy, cloud-like future, but a very real future charged with a Divine Love with the power of a billion suns, so to speak – so it is not perceivable now, and indeed I do believe it is folly to attempt to see further than that.

But one should not worry about the future, God ensures that a child of His does not pass into a condition in which there is nothing familiar to the child. It would be folly to put a junior into a university, and so it is, I believe, with one's progressive development and ability to see the great and Almighty Divine Being Who made us all.

I apologise if this appears over-reached, but in a most basic essence, this is what I believe the future holds for everyone – Universal Restoration. It may be that something within can empathise in the smallest of ways - it may not be.

Peace

Thanks Lastpost. I think I understand what you are saying.

Alright, I may have found one NDE close to what WW mentioned:

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/children.html

The second one would be it. I am ignoring most things on that site, and ignoring the reincarnation NDE's, as I find those unbiblical.

Haven't read the in depth ones on that page, but I find it really interesting how most are in a tunnel. Maybe the shadow of death/pit/abyss?

If there are schools there, it must be really high costing to get in!  :laughing7:

I also find Pet NDE's interesting, a new concept to me. I do expect animals to be resurrected, but them alive is fascinating for me too.

Lastpost I loved that! :thumbsup:

Continuing on what I mentioned before, apparently in many NDE's they are met by animals, including their old pets. Some apparently even talk!

Marc, remember how you mentioned you talked to your father through thought? Well, apparently that happens in these too. Either the transfer of thoughts, transfer of ideas, or the transfer of images.

Some include reincarnation aspects, which I still am weary of, especially as a Christian. Anyone have thoughts on that? Some of these seem to be really New Agey oriented, and especially how some portray God. One person mentioned how they said there are "higher forms" to attain. Not sure of that.

And, I guess another type of NDE is with multiple people, where all of them can see each other and the same thing, and talk to each other too.

They also seem to be highly remembered, even more so than regular memories.

I think there's differences and much resembles new age because it's all taking place in their mind.. like a dream.. That's my opinion. It gives comfort to some I think who don't have the big picture yet from God's Word (i.e. mind, His revealed will/intent/design).

But the bible says some will rise to life and some will rise to the judgment (which we humans I think it was who tagged 'day' to "the Judgment, so we think of it as a Judgment 'Day'.. But the Bible talks about "the coming ages.

I guess there's enough mystery for me in God's Word (from Him) and concerning bible prophecy. Quite revealing, also exciting, and He's answered my questions.. :cloud9: :cloud9: :banana:

There's a verse:
https://biblehub.com/kjv/jeremiah/23-28.htm - a list of different translations of the verse..

The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; and he who has my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the straw to the wheat? says Yahweh

Commentary on the verse: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/jeremiah/23-28.htm
   :Peace2: :girlheart:

Thanks MG. Have to disagree a bit though.

Not saying ALL NDE's are true, but there are some that are scientifically verifiable, and from people who even had been dead for several days, and from people like children, who's NDE's are remarkably similar to those of an adult. It seems usually to not even depend on what kind of person it is(I see a few exceptions, like eastern like one's, those I discard right away as I don't see Scriptural support for those.

And, even from atheists. Why would an atheist dream of these things? Even ones mentioned here before, like that person who had never seen the Lord's Prayer before was given to him in that.

I don't think Satan can give people the presence and Love of God either. If that were true, then most, including me would be deceived.

Still not 100% convinced on these things, hence the title "wrestling with something"  :laughing7:

Certainly don't want to be carried away by man's doctrines and swallowed up by the world. Mainly because I go to Scripture and God for everything(hopefully) and not rely on my own power and wisdom.

That's okay... It's perfectly okay for us to disagree! :gsmile:
I think the knowledge of God is in all people. My staunch atheist brother, I know in his heart he knows God is. This really makes me more aware of how creative the human mind is! Even while so limited.. :Chinscratch: Very interesting.. we create for ourselves a sort of Elysium fields.. (the phrase "Elysium fields" has been running through my mind for a few days.. now I finally get to write it! lol..) Is this the "asleep in Jesus" of 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4 I wonder?

The verse which most guided me in my search for truth and understanding is Jeremiah 33:3 (and i want to understand the big picture and everything involved with it!)

Jeremiah 33:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

While I'm thinking of favorite things Jeremiah said - 31:3 -- "The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying ..Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness do I draw thee."
:friendstu:

I have spent way too much time reading NDEs...

And in doing so I do believe some or many are truly experiencing something.

It is not for me to try to convince anyone else, but from the amount of time I have spent, like ML says, there are interesting accounts by children and by people with nothing to gain. I am wary of anyone selling books or making sensational YouTube videos but there are at least 3 web sites that allow people to submit their experiences and those contain so many with common threads by everyday people.

So many people come back believing in God, feeling more love, and feeling a sense of purpose.

I'd say NDEs have scriptural support when they:

Talk of God as love
Experience a life review aka the judgment but their eyes are opened to all of the things they did on earth and how their actions affected others
Talk about how we all came from God and all will return (this is surprisingly common in NDEs which makes me skeptical that they are just dreams)
Talk about after-death learning/redemption etc because I believe UR necessitates this to some extent, how it plays out I don't know
Some NDEs talk about how those in "hell" are constantly being ministered by angels/God but they are too stubborn to see the "light" but will eventually respond

For the NDEs that are questionable I do wonder if those are a dream or if the person's own biases cloud what they experience so they are misinterpreting things. Anyone who comes back talking of hell inadvertently proves it's not eternal because they escaped it!  Anyone talking about other questionable things like reincarnation may be misinterpreting things, the past lives may just be preexistence, which is controversial but not totally unbiblical or unchristian IMO...or maybe in limited circumstances God who is love grants to people a second chance on earth such as aborted babies but again it's speculation and I don't want to get too far out there for the sake of this forum.

So anyway NDEs did help solidify my view of Universal Salvation because they often talk about immense love and forgiveness and returning to God.

The spirit returns to God:
Ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Paul talking of being absent from the body and present with the lord:

2 Corinthians 5
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Paul talking of dying and going to Christ:

Philippians 1:21-23
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;


Paul had a vision that sounds similar to NDEs:

2 Corinthians 12
I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

Jesus speaking of whoever believes in him will not die:

17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about [a]two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You."

23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

27 She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world."

This is my opinion, and I only share these things to try to help, but things are subject to change as the scales fall off more and more and the veil is lifted. I believe God reveals things to us if we seek but in His time as we are ready and I don't claim to have the truth, just seeking like everyone else.

One day, two greenfly were having a fine meal on their favourite plant. One said to the other:

"My oh my, are we not fortunate to be eating in the sunshine all day long as lords of all that we survey!"

At that moment, a couple of ants pounced on the greenfly out of nowhere. One ant said to the other:

My oh my, we are indeed fortunate to be able to find easy food every day for us and for our family - we are surely lords of all that we survey, and greenfly always come back to the same place so we can feast again!"

Then, lo and behold, there came a couple of anteaters and slurped up the ants in a flash. One anteater said to the other:

"Come husband, don't roll over in contentment and think you are lord of all you survey, Tiger comes this way through the forest every day looking for an easy meal. Let us retreat to the refuge of our sanctuary home for ants always come back to the same place and we can return tomorrow and feast once more".

Mentioned this in a PM already, but here is the evidence page of that website.

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html

I will put an excerpt here, but there are many more on that page.

Dr. Jeffrey Long is a physician practicing the specialty of radiation oncology in Houma, Louisiana. Dr. Long served on the Board of Directors of IANDS, and is actively involved in NDE research. In his book, "Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences," Dr. Long documents a study he conducted - the largest scientific study of NDEs ever. It is based on his research of over 1,300 NDEs shared with NDERF.org. Using his treasure trove of data, Dr. Long explains how NDEs cannot be explained by brain chemistry alone, how medical evidence fails to explain them away and why there is only one plausible explanation - that people have survived death and traveled to another dimension. Dr. Long makes his case using nine lines of evidence and they are the following:

1.
Crystal-Clear Consciousness. The level of conscious alertness during NDEs is usually greater than that experienced in everyday life - even though NDEs generally occur when a person is unconscious or clinically dead. This high level of consciousness while physically unconscious is medically unexplained. Additionally, the elements in NDEs generally follow the same consistent and logical order in all age groups and around the world, which refutes the possibility that NDEs have any relation to dreams or hallucinations.

2.
Realistic Out-of-Body Experiences (OBEs): OBEs are one of the most common elements of NDEs. Events witnessed and heard by NDErs while in an out-of-body state are almost always realistic. When the NDEr or others later seek to verify what was witnessed or heard during the NDE, their OBE observations are almost always confirmed as completely accurate. Even if the OBE observations include events occurring far away from the physical body, and far from any possible sensory awareness of the NDEr, the OBE observations are still almost always confirmed as completely accurate. This fact alone rules out the possibility that NDEs are related to any known brain functioning or sensory awareness. This also refutes the possibility that NDEs are unrealistic fragments of memory from the brain.

3.
Heightened Senses. Not only are heightened senses reported by most who have NDEs, normal or supernormal vision has occurred in those with significantly impaired vision, and even legal blindness. Several people who have been totally blind since birth have reported highly visual NDEs. This is medically unexplainable.

4.
Consciousness During Anesthesia. Many NDEs occur while the NDEr is under general anesthesia - at a time when any conscious experience should be impossible. While some skeptics claim these NDEs may be the result of too little anesthesia, this ignores the fact that some NDEs result from anesthesia overdose. Additionally, descriptions of a NDEs differ greatly from those people who experiences "anesthetic awareness." The content of NDEs occurring under general anesthesia is essentially indistinguishable from NDEs that do not occur under general anesthesia. This is more strong evidence that NDEs occur independent from the functioning of the material brain.

5.
Perfect Playback. Life reviews in NDEs include real events which previously occurred in the lives of the NDEr - even if the events were forgotten or happened before they were old enough to remember.

6.
Family Reunions. During an NDE, the experiencer may encounter people who are virtually always deceased and are usually relatives of the NDEr. Sometimes they include relatives who died before the NDEr was even born. If NDEs are merely the product of memory fragments, they would almost certainly include far more living people, including those with whom they had more recently interacted.

7.
Children's Experiences. The NDEs of children, including very young children who are too young to have developed concepts of death, religion, or NDEs, are essentially identical to those of older children and adults. This refutes the possibility that the content of NDEs is produced by preexisting beliefs or cultural conditioning.

8.
Worldwide Consistency. NDEs appear remarkably consistent around the world, and across many different religions and cultures. NDEs from non-Western countries are incredibly similar to those occurring in people in Western countries.

9.
Aftereffects. It is common for people to experience major life changes after having NDEs. These aftereffects are often powerful, lasting, life-enhancing, and the changes generally follow a consistent pattern. NDErs themselves are practically universal in their belief that their experience of the afterlife was real.

And, here is the science page too

https://www.near-death.com/science.html

Again, I am ignoring most on this website, but not all of it.

Quote from: GodIsLove on September 06, 2018, 05:21:40 PM
I have spent way too much time reading NDEs...

And in doing so I do believe some or many are truly experiencing something.

It is not for me to try to convince anyone else, but from the amount of time I have spent, like ML says, there are interesting accounts by children and by people with nothing to gain. I am wary of anyone selling books or making sensational YouTube videos but there are at least 3 web sites that allow people to submit their experiences and those contain so many with common threads by everyday people.

So many people come back believing in God, feeling more love, and feeling a sense of purpose.

I’d say NDEs have scriptural support when they:

Talk of God as love
Experience a life review aka the judgment but their eyes are opened to all of the things they did on earth and how their actions affected others
Talk about how we all came from God and all will return (this is surprisingly common in NDEs which makes me skeptical that they are just dreams)
Talk about after-death learning/redemption etc because I believe UR necessitates this to some extent, how it plays out I don’t know
Some NDEs talk about how those in “hell” are constantly being ministered by angels/God but they are too stubborn to see the “light” but will eventually respond

For the NDEs that are questionable I do wonder if those are a dream or if the person’s own biases cloud what they experience so they are misinterpreting things. Anyone who comes back talking of hell inadvertently proves it’s not eternal because they escaped it!  Anyone talking about other questionable things like reincarnation may be misinterpreting things, the past lives may just be preexistence, which is controversial but not totally unbiblical or unchristian IMO...or maybe in limited circumstances God who is love grants to people a second chance on earth such as aborted babies but again it’s speculation and I don’t want to get too far out there for the sake of this forum.

So anyway NDEs did help solidify my view of Universal Salvation because they often talk about immense love and forgiveness and returning to God.

The spirit returns to God:
Ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Paul talking of being absent from the body and present with the lord:

2 Corinthians 5
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Paul talking of dying and going to Christ:

Philippians 1:21-23
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;


Paul had a vision that sounds similar to NDEs:

2 Corinthians 12
I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

Jesus speaking of whoever believes in him will not die:

17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about [a]two miles away. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

This is my opinion, and I only share these things to try to help, but things are subject to change as the scales fall off more and more and the veil is lifted. I believe God reveals things to us if we seek but in His time as we are ready and I don’t claim to have the truth, just seeking like everyone else.

I know it’s almost like there’s teo realities at play.. it’s seems very curious sometimes.. I did read however in the interlinear that aionian was in the verse in which Jesus said whoever believes in Him will never die “to or into” the age..

And I believe as soon as a believer dies, the next thing they know we will be rising and thus shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then of course there’s the verses Paul wrote abou immortality being put on at the resurrection at the last day.. I know some people think that refers to every one’s unique last day but I can’t see that..

I guess we may not for sure understand the truth of this until whatever last day fulfills it.. Or sooner, if as some folks believe the individual spirit is eternal/immortal and it is the body which is raised.. but the verse “with what body shall they rise?” for instance doesn’t seem to read that way to me.

But then there’s the curious account in the Old Testament of Saul going to a medium - which he himself had outlawed from the land - and she called Samuel from his grave for him and he said to Saul why did you disturb my rest (whatever his “rest” was/is). All very strange. It will be interesting to finally know the truth one day!

Here's a question:

Why are these experiences labeled a "near death experience" when they could very well be labeled a "near life experience"?

Quote from: lastpost on September 06, 2018, 07:31:33 PM

One day, two greenfly were having a fine meal on their favourite plant. One said to the other:

"My oh my, are we not fortunate to be eating in the sunshine all day long as lords of all that we survey!"

At that moment, a couple of ants pounced on the greenfly out of nowhere. One ant said to the other:

My oh my, we are indeed fortunate to be able to find easy food every day for us and for our family - we are surely lords of all that we survey, and greenfly always come back to the same place so we can feast again!"

Then, lo and behold, there came a couple of anteaters and slurped up the ants in a flash. One anteater said to the other:

"Come husband, don't roll over in contentment and think you are lord of all you survey, Tiger comes this way through the forest every day looking for an easy meal. Let us retreat to the refuge of our sanctuary home for ants always come back to the same place and we can return tomorrow and feast once more".

"Dog eat dog" ..even more so these days with the theory of dog eat dog / survival of the fittest..

Won't it be Great when "there will be no more hurting in all the Kingdom"..

"They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Isaiah 1:9
  :gsmile:

Quote from: lastpost on September 06, 2018, 07:31:33 PM

One day, two greenfly were having a fine meal on their favourite plant. One said to the other:

"My oh my, are we not fortunate to be eating in the sunshine all day long as lords of all that we survey!"

At that moment, a couple of ants pounced on the greenfly out of nowhere. One ant said to the other:

My oh my, we are indeed fortunate to be able to find easy food every day for us and for our family - we are surely lords of all that we survey, and greenfly always come back to the same place so we can feast again!"

Then, lo and behold, there came a couple of anteaters and slurped up the ants in a flash. One anteater said to the other:

"Come husband, don't roll over in contentment and think you are lord of all you survey, Tiger comes this way through the forest every day looking for an easy meal. Let us retreat to the refuge of our sanctuary home for ants always come back to the same place and we can return tomorrow and feast once more".

I'm terrible with interpreting parables/fables.
:dontknow:

...”The lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow!” :cloud9: (Isaiah 11:7, i don’t know why I always write that verse backwards)

So great will be His subduing, that “the small child will be able to play at the entrance to the poisonous serpent’s den”. (Is 11:6(?)
:banana:

Otherwise I cannot interpret it either..

I have had a vision in my head every so often, that one day all in heaven and earth for a moment or so, before around God’s throne, all, in utter awe.. all will be silent and still before Him.
:dontknow: :Peace2:

QuoteI know it's almost like there's teo realities at play.. it's seems very curious sometimes.. I did read however in the interlinear that aionian was in the verse in which Jesus said whoever believes in Him will never die "to or into" the age..

Something came to me recently. Even if it is living to the age, this age is not over yet! The question is, then, is it this age, the next age, or both?

Quote from: jugghead on September 06, 2018, 09:48:24 PM
Here's a question:

Why are these experiences labeled a "near death experience" when they could very well be labeled a "near life experience"?

I don't know why, the the Prodigal son comes to mind.

Luk 15:24  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. 

In my opinion, when the Aeon of the aeons (or Age of ages) ["all through the generations of the Aeon of aeons" => τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων Eph. 3:21] is completed, it will be because the Grand Consummation has occurred.

To those who pass through that great Aeon, identified with Christ, it will mean an Aeon of enhanced and superabundant life; a life in which the participators of it have become beyond the reach of Aeonial pruning or Aeonial 'death'.

As I see it now, that is what our Lord meant when He said: 'If a man keep My word, he shall not see death all through the Aeon' (John 8:51). And beyond that Aeon is timelessness - the inhabitants of the Aeon of aeons have merged into blessed Divine timelessness where a description of "Aeon" is no longer appropriate – it is God-life, the One God who is Being, the Divine I AM, a condition of holy purity where all the inhabitants, as His children, share in that I AM-ness with, and in, the great Supreme Being who gave them life.

God's children – no longer spiritually dead because of the work of Christ - live eternally, because God loves them eternally – He does not make them disappear somewhere and stop loving them – forbid such a burden to Him.

Life does not stop because and age passes into another age. The Iron Age simply meant a change of consciousness as to how life was lived; the Bronze Age the same - flowers still grew, birds still flew – life continues.

The Bible says that man was made in the image of God. God is eternal. Once the Grand Consummation has occurred, the children of God live eternally with God, having become Divinely pure - with total and complete experience, understanding and knowledge - because of their progression through the Aeon of aeons brought into being for that one purpose – i.e. the "purpose of the aeons" (Eph. 3:11).

Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 08, 2018, 12:41:06 AM

QuoteI know it’s almost like there’s teo realities at play.. it’s seems very curious sometimes.. I did read however in the interlinear that aionian was in the verse in which Jesus said whoever believes in Him will never die “to or into” the age..

Something came to me recently. Even if it is living to the age, this age is not over yet! The question is, then, is it this age, the next age, or both?

I think of it as "shall not die into the age" -

I think it means those who live and believe in Him, during this life, will live with Him during the Millennium.

the verse -https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/11-26.htm

the Greek - https://biblehub.com/greek/1519.htm
                 = eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.


19:11 - 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True

19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse..

19:20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
20:5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
20:6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Commonly called, as we know, the Millennium rule of Christ.)

Then after the millennium,
20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished..
20:11 ..I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;

20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God

Quote from: jugghead on September 06, 2018, 09:48:24 PM
Here's a question:

Why are these experiences labeled a "near death experience" when they could very well be labeled a "near life experience"?

I don't know why, the the Prodigal son comes to mind.

Luk 15:24  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
[/quote]

:Chinscratch: Interesting..

Here's another link. I clicked on the paranormal part of the website, but then quickly got out because that is just playing with spirits imo.

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-see-verified-events-while-obe.html

Also, Sparrows testimony surprised me too. I used to dismiss these things, but I think God is opening my eyes and showing me that there really is more to it.

What is sparrows testimony?

I wanted people to look it up themselves, but I guess I'll post it here:

"Way back when I was in High School, my mother was stricken with cancer. After years of horrendous treatments, she had been brought home from the hospital, to die. Hospice was there. Her last moments, a little bird flew up to the window and peered in at all of us standing around her hospital bed which was in the middle of the living room. That little bird just sat there peering in at all of us, and wouldn't fly away. Just stared. Meanwhile, my mother was incoherent and mumbling and struggling, moving her head from side to side, and we knew this was it.... this was the end. All of a sudden, this great peace came over her, she stopped struggling, and she said softly, slowly and clearly with absolute childlike wonder, awe and amazement.... "Hi..Granny..!"
Then, suddenly the bird flew away, and she died at that moment. Our Granny had died 3 years before.

Never will I forget this.
The peace.... the wonder in her voice."

Cool thanks.

I was trying to look it up and couldn't find it. I went to the testimony board and it wasn't there and I also looked at sparrows posting history and couldn't find it.

God never abandons us or leaves us to our own devices.

Why should He not have a presence with us, to lead us to the 'other side'?

I guess, knowing He sends people to help us, here on earth, why not to walk with us through the valley of death, into His wonderous Light?

Sounds like it could be a plan.

Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

D.

GodisLove, I actually found that on "accident."

I think, as Dandelion mentioned, that God does not need to "put us away" for a time. We are not toys that go put back on the shelf for a time, but real sons and daughters of God.

Dandelion, i always love your posts. They are so simple and full of love...but the truth really is simpler than we make it.

https://www.near-death.com/science/experts/melvin-morse.html

Here is one very mysterious but very cool aspect of those who had NDE's. The article is mainly about children's NDE's, but saw this mentioned in others too.

"He also found that they often could not wear watches as they would mysteriously break, and often had electrical conduction problems such as shorting out lap top computers and erasing credit cards."

Seems that those who have them have a very different view of time, and definitely not just a psychological change either.

I think also that those who claim that NDE's are just based on a person's religion have not done enough reading. About as big as a misconception as "Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven."

There are a few hiccups here or there, but almost always they have a common theme. Regardless of age, or religion, or anything else. I mean, what kind of dream makes you view time differently, changes your immune system, and other changes?

Another quote
"Michael Sabom, an Atlanta cardiologist, found that 43% of cardiac arrest patients had NDEs. Patients with long complicated resuscitations were more likely to have NDEs. He also found that patients who had NDEs frequently could accurately describe their own resuscitation in detail. In contrast, control group of patients who had cardiac arrests but no NDEs could not describe their own resuscitation with any accuracy."

I don't agree with all that is in here. I find the description of angels as "trapped energy" pretty iffy, and "evidence" of reincarnation. But, I think when more and more evidence seems to be supporting this, not looking into it is probably the wrong move...

I've always thought visitations from ppl beyond the grave to be angels, angel comfort.. If nde, etc, is true I wonder how it fits the ages outlined in Revelation.. Since past historical prophecy was more than spiritual metaphor, I figure the Revelation outline and vision to be accurate. Though told in symbols and metaphor. :laughing7:

:Chinscratch: I used to think perhaps Revelation is a sort of 'keys' to the rest of the Bible.. :Chinscratch:
    :Peace2:

Well, I think Rev. 1:1 says the book is symbolic when it says these words were "signified."

Just thinking, wouldn't God sending an angel disguised as someone's loved one, be a lie? Lying as in, the person thinks it is someones loved one when it is really not?

:dunno2: