Tentmaker Forum

Hello there,

since about half a year I have the gift of interpreting a speech in tongue.

I can speak in tongues for about 6 years now, and from early on I sometimes caught a word or two from my tongue speaking and knew what it meant. But since these 6 monts I can often say what entire sentences meant.

So today I was praying to God what to do with my life and I spoke in tongues for a while and then I prayed about what it meant and I knew it meant this:

"Go with your views to other people and tell them you love the world and that you would like to do something that helps."

I asked God specifically about UR and prayed some more and then I knew God said:

"This is about love and about wishes of man which are fully understandable."

I must add that while I believe in UR I still associate with ALL christians and pretty much follow standard (modern) christian doctrine. IE, I enjoy having women pastors and full acceptance of gays and things like that, but I maintain the trinity, the resurrection, that Jesus will return some day, that we must be careful about esoterics and things like that.

Maybe this is the way to go, instead of taking UR and sailing away with it, to embrace it within christianity and to make sure to stay in church and to keep the core teachings of christian orthodoxy.

I am so glad that God has spoken, and I'm gonna see if I can do something for the world with others. I'd like to encourage everyone to keep positive beliefs about God, that the old concept of God wanting to destroy things could be seriously overstated and that in fact God loves our world, even when it's sometimes mad and bad.

God bless you!

 pretty much follow standard (modern) christian doctrine.
Even when the Bible plainly contradicts it?
By full acceptance of Gays do you mean condoning their sin?
We are to love the sinner but not condone the sin - and make no mistake, the Bible no where in any way condones homosexuality. I'm not homophobic, I would be the same with adulterers, fornicators, murderers, theifs - loving the sinner but in no way condoning the sin.
The bible also does not condone in any way groups (other than womens groups) being led by a woman.
I also wonder why God, who is not the author of confusion would have you speak in a tongue you didn't understand and then tell you what He wanted. Why not just tell you first?
You say you want to stay in the church and "keep the core teachings of christian orthodoxy" does that include ET?
I still attend an ET church but I guarantee you, ET is orthodoxy and UR is considered blasphemy by most.
Peace and grace and love to you and whatever you decide and may God guide your life.

QuoteThe bible also does not condone in any way groups (other than womens groups) being led by a woman.

Oh where is Cardinal when we need her??

I it is about love and the wishes of man"..but just not the 'Will" of God....

   while noble in love for mankind that is in her.  Jeremiah 51;9  we would have healed Babylon

  but she can not be healed........

        these things Must occurr.........

   there have been many past posts on the subject of the role of women in worship.  there is neither

   male nor female in Christ.  now Paul said some things..as always that may be hard to understand...

   and people 'twist" them. ww if he would be ever so kind..could problably link it for us..

   there are two women...Babylon and Jerusalem Above....which woman do you think it is

  lawful for her to teach her children.?  are the two women's children distinct? are the two women?

   

Quote from: sheila on October 20, 2012, 06:14:20 PM
ww if he would be ever so kind..could problably link it for us..

Your wish is my command teacher Sheila

:URWelcome:





http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/women-speaking-in-church/msg126566/#msg126566

http://www.theexaminer.org/volume7/number6/speakers.htm

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 20, 2012, 06:19:01 PM

Quote from: sheila on October 20, 2012, 06:14:20 PM
ww if he would be ever so kind..could problably link it for us..

Your wish is my command teacher Sheila

:URWelcome:





http://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studies/women-speaking-in-church/msg126566/#msg126566

http://www.theexaminer.org/volume7/number6/speakers.htm

.

:cloud9: There's my Card.  :HeartThrob:

Good stuff Sheila!

thank you :HeartThrob:  but really,I shudder at the name 'teacher'...I'm no teacher...but a sharer with all

  of what the Holy spirit teaches .

    Paul talked about the man being formed first..and then the woman......note the birth of the manchild

  caught up to the throne in Rev 12..the women with the 12 stars on her head...it is always  about..

  the foolish and the wise virgins..the discerning of the spirits..the spirit of presumptousness and the

  spirit of wisdom from Above.   there is no law against the spirit[of the free woman]...

Quote from: sheila on October 20, 2012, 06:43:07 PM
thank you :HeartThrob:  but really,I shudder at the name 'teacher'...I'm no teacher...but a sharer with all

  of what the Holy spirit teaches .

Long ago Someone made similar statements  :Chinscratch:

Ded, I am of the view that the proscriptions against homosexuality in the mosaic law are largely irrelevant as the law was pretty much a jewish thing except for some core teachings that are really universal. It's kind of like a really odd work of didactic art that was used to give the jews a special identity.

About what Paul writes, I think it is good to see it with more discernment. I think Paul writes against immoral homosexuality, not against the normal homosexuality. Specifically, I have read in Barclay's commentaries that in the greek and roman societies of Paul's time there were men who held other young men and even boys as sex objects that they "played" with besides being married. I also think there are instances of homosexuality where men simply go after kinks that they find in sex or porn shops and that's not in God's will either. But when two men or two women love each other and are attracted to each other and it all goes the orderly way and Christ is honored and everything else then I think that homosexuality is ok and that gay marriage should come soon because it's a good thing.

By the way, sin doesn't always mean a specific crime or transgression, it means the personal malady that you can't fulfill your purpose and find into the "normal" happiness of life in God. Basically, a person living in sin means someone who would always miss his purpose, not that he would actually be a great criminal or transgressor. In that sense, it is also a sin when someone doesn't find forgiveness ... sin is not always about something that I did wrong or that God hated or so, instead it describes an unholy life, an incomplete and spiritually lacking life.

I generally agree about the Levitical Laws.

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on October 20, 2012, 10:59:21 PM
I think Paul writes against immoral homosexuality, not against the normal homosexuality. Specifically, I have read in Barclay's commentaries ... But when two men or two women love each other and are attracted to each other and it all goes the orderly way and Christ is honored and everything else then I think that homosexuality is ok and that gay marriage should come soon because it's a good thing.

But I personally believe there are many (including "experts") who try to twist and explain away what Paul clearly said, but Christ is not honored in sin.  This has been discussed here before, and the words in the Greek Paul used clearly mean same sex sex and same sex lust.  Yes, there was apparently prostitution and pedophilia, but those are separate issues and are used as a distraction to excuse the sinful behavior Paul was discussing here.  Also, besides that, he specifically says clearly that men lying with men, burning in their lust for each other, women leaving the natural use of the man [and joining to women instead], etc. is sin and brings judgment.  No fancy words there.

I don't believe there is "normal homosexuality", just as there is no normal adultary, murder, lying - no acceptable or orderly sin.  We are required to resist the urges and weaknesses of the flesh, instead turning them over to God for deliverance, and if not deliverance, strength and grace [such as abstaining, and forgiveness when we fail].  As ded said, [call sin what it is], reject and teach against it, while loving the sinner.  IMO, doing otherwise [condoning] is not loving.  It is assisting down the road to destruction.   We are clay, we have weaknesses and inclinations and dispositions/pre-dispositions.  We fail, I fail.  Although often able to be successful, and my weight or health isn't awful, still, my besetting sin (among others) is struggling with my appetite, lust toward food.  I desire and often do use it beyond necessity or moderate enjoyment.  I failed last night.  We/I need to keep looking to Him.  God's love sets limits for good reasons, and provides the way of escape. 

Quotecondoning] is not loving.  It is assisting down the road to destruction.

:iagree:

(Note that I am not entering into the homosexual debate, I am just agreeing with this statement.  :HeartThrob: There are a few homosexuals in my life that I love dearly. What they do in their personal lives is between them and God. If He were to give me a word for them regarding their homosexual behaviour then by all means I would speak it. Until that happens I will not even broach the subject.)

Right Lo.  I have several homosexual acquaintances.  We get along, the topic has never even been mentioned -  just as if 2 unmarried people were living together in a sexual situation I'd figure it wasn't really any of my business unless it specifically came up, I was asked about it, etc.  Then I'd be compelled to gently to the best of my ability share about sin and God's help available for it in our lives.  I'd be obliged to say yes I believe it's sin, I have my own sin, and we're to take it to the Lord for help - not just explain it away or delude ourselves (and others) into thinking it's OK no matter what God says about it.  But just to go out and be screaming at everybody about sin and trying to condemn them...nah, that's not what I'm talking about or how I personally believe it should be handled.  But I do believe we need to seek to understand and believe the things God tells us, then share it when it's the time to do so - not before.   :2c:

(BTW- I personally make a distinction between someone who has homosexual tendencies ["orientation"] and someone who actively practices the lifestyle.  I believe we all have lumps in our clay, tendencies, predispositions, the works of the flesh.  Many heterosexuals have the drive, the tendency to want to sleep with a different woman every night besides their wife?  Should they?  God calls us to resist temptation, revile the lusts of the flesh, and look to Him for victory and to overcome in our lives, as He leads us into maturity.   :2c:  And having done all to stand, when we do fall, His grace is sufficient.

Quote from: jabcat on October 21, 2012, 01:07:15 AM
Right Lo.  I have several homosexual acquaintances.  We get along, the topic has never even been mentioned -  just as if 2 unmarried people were living together in a sexual situation I'd figure it wasn't really any of my business unless it specifically came up, I was asked about it, etc.  Then I'd be compelled to gently to the best of my ability share about sin and God's help available for it in our lives.  I'd be obliged to say yes I believe it's sin, I have my own sin, and we're to take it to the Lord for help - not just explain it away or delude ourselves (and others) into thinking it's OK no matter what God says about it.  But just to go out and be screaming at everybody about sin and trying to condemn them...nah, that's not what I'm talking about or how I personally believe it should be handled.  But I do believe we need to seek to understand and believe the things God tells us, then share it when it's the time to do so - not before.   :2c:

:thumbsup: :iagree:

I believe it's part of the "take up your cross and follow Me", and if we don't do it willingly (yielding/submitting to him [I'm preaching to me!]/I'm the one that needs it!), then it will have to be exacted from us later – as through [spiritual] fire with the destruction of the flesh [our carnal nature].    If we take up the cross and try to do it in our own strength or effort, it's hard and will result in failure and resentment.  Although Paul buffeted [denied] his flesh and was mistreated daily, he had the joy and peace that passed all understanding.  Because if we look to Him and trust HIS strength, then His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

 :dsunny:  :iagree:

Why are you so certain that homosexuality is sin? What principles do you follow when reading scripture and interpreting its messages?

We must be aware of quite a few things there. For example, the distinction between law and gospel, the fact that Jesus brought grace and no new laws, that belief in Jesus is the end of the law, that even in New Testament times themselves the new christians abolished the use of some of the mosaic code, that Paul was not perfect and himself spoke of looking into a glass darkly, that he wanted us to get forward in the faith and that things can change.

Just for example, take slavery. Paul didn't attack slavery and actually told slaves to bear with their lot and to serve their masters willingly. But in our day we decided that slavery is bad, we call it a sin.

In my opinion, we cannot define sin as the transgression of the mosaic law anymore, instead it is the privation of the good. The law was ONCE used as a means to find out sin, but Paul argued it would only produce sin because sin uses god's commandments to kill us. So we really don't have commandments anymore but instead God draws, calls us, tells us things and warns us of spiritual death and the consequences of it that stem from living contrarily to him.

And historically, the church sat down and examined the law and the morality of the time and it picked up what was good and rejected what was not so good. So for example, they abolished stoning because of Christ's example.

And Paul clearly wrote against what happened in Rome. Look at the prophetic books of the Old Testament, it contains no complaint of God about homosexuality. It was a certain purity law given TO THE JEWS, it did not for all time say that homosexuality is truly unwanted by God. Furthermore Paul writes about men and woman EXCHANGING the use of the other sex in sexuality, meaning they speak about people who were embracing heterosexuality but then, on spurious reasons, decided to sleep with people of the same sex. He doesn't write about the ordinary gay person who pretty much never felt any sexual attraction to the opposite sex. Do you see where this is going? It's coming down to adultery again, it's about keeping marriage intact and not spoiling it with the lust for sexual adventures.

And look a bit at the times ... just read up on roman and greek decadence and you will clearly see that Paul speaks about an IMMORAL sexuality, including immoral homosexuality, not about homosexuality at large because that would have been incoherent with our being set free of the law as jews or our not being inducted into the law obedience as Gentiles.

I have read the debates on both sides of this issue, and usually fall on the side of homosexual acts being sin.  I will say though a few things bother me, and maybe it's just my flesh talking...

1) I'm not talking about kink, but someone born gay...and yes I believe some people are born that way.  Are they to live without marriage, sexual intimacy, and deny a significant part of who they are?

2) I can't think of a single sin that is merely sin because its sin.  All sin is sin because it harms ourself and others.  Lying, stealing, coveting, murder, etc all make sense.  Two people of the same sex who love each other, want to be lifetime partners, and that is somehow harmful?  Why?  In a world that is overcrowded, I can't imagine it being a procreation thing.

My closest friend growing up was homosexual. After 10 years of hanging out together, one day he said to me, "What's the very last thing you would think of me?" I laughingly answered, "Probably that you're gay." He quietly said, Well, I am."
20 years later, he was dead from aids. Yes, he had a partner and they lived together for 18 years before his death but as he told me, "the majority of homosexuals with "life partners" "fool around" with others.

He may have been "born gay" but I think people like him and the rare few that are born with 2 sets of sex organs are what vPaul was talking about when he mentioned that some choose the non-married, Asexual life for the glory of God.
I have also met gays that "accepted Christ" and gave up the homosexual lifestyle and a sex life in general since they didn't feel it right to pursue the opposite sex that they weren't really attracted to.

Yeah gr  :iagree:, EVERYONE has sin and sin is sin because it hurts us. If we were to shun everyone who lives a life of "sin" who would there be left to love? Again, what people choose to do with their lives is between them and God. What I have learned is that God is not at all as religious as we thought LOL!

Shawn, I want to agree with you that sin is sin because it harms someone or something. And in SOME cases of homosexuality that's still the fact because you might be damaging your own heterosexuality just because you got thrilled by same sex things because it's easier and more plentiful available (think of parking lot encounters and stuff like that). It's like with transsexuality, if you are well with being a man you shouldn't surgically alter yourself in order to satisfy the trans thrill (and I know what I am speaking about as I have suffered from autogynecophilia for a time in my youth, and it's recurring sometimes now still). But if you have a long story with it and other symptoms of genuine gender dysphoria are present (which never was the case with me), then a person with this should be allowed to go ahead with surgery, hormones or whatever else they need. The bible is not really concerned with our liberties in that regard, instead it brings things into connections with Christ and how He wants to have things done, ie gay marriage instead of going wild. We are clearly supposed to have a love life that would not be arbitrarily made short, in fact normally we should stay with our partners for as long as we live. When gays listen to this simple principle they don't live in sin. Otherwise they couldn't even stay christians, there would be pressure to turn them to atheism. But in the vast majority this isn't happening except when the church pulls out the hammers and nails and decides these poor people to sacrifice their lives for a God that doesn't allow their means of having romantic love relationships.

He's very practical..actually....homosexuals are no more 'dead' in their sin than anyone else.  He concluded

  all under sin andf condemned sin in the flesh in all in Adam.  When He chose firstfruits from sinful men

  and called them unto grace...He chose men that come from many different 'sin type' backgrounds...

   He says that is what some of you were....murderers,homosexuals,theives,lustful adulterers etc

.  If the firstfruits [of those alive from the dead] are Holy..then so,too, all

    Realizing what sin is..as an active evil spirit that leads into all manner of perverting man that is to be in the image

of God[as an evil contrast].  will help discern and divide the sinners He calls[I come not to call the righteous,

  but sinners] from the sin that is operative in them.

   what He does with those called in this world...He does with the remainder of their contemporaries at death

     He takes out a remnant now...as a token...and the remainder at the death of their fleshly body.

    Now,we must not condone sin in any form..it is justly condemned by God in all Adam.....normust we

  call evil good.  But we need to acknowledge God's sovereignty in it...of this good/evil exercize...

  His judgement,righteousness and mercy....and His ability to use something meant for evil to man

  unto man's eternal good.

   every wicked,evil unclean impulse in mankind originates with the negative evil contrast spirit...not God

    sin entered through one man.

   If God chooses to call out a man and chooses to work deliverance in this world..He will give  Holy spirit

  as a helper..He may even cast out the spirit responsible for the 'urges' that man was formerly enslaved too.

    But if it is God's will that a man not be called as a firstfruit from the dead ..and serve as an example

  of the deliverance of God in this life...He will not.

    Jesus did just what He beheld His Father doing in heaven...raising the dead[and we have examples of the work of

  God..and power of God in the gospels doing this..but not all dead men were raised at that time..these served

  as 'tokens' and gifts and examples of deliverance by God's power from all effects of sin.  Same,too,for cleansing

from leprosy,various unclean spirits,casting out demons,seizures,deaf,mutes.......He was demonstrating

  on earth what He beheld His Father doing in Heaven.........

   If the firstfruits from the dead are Holy...so too, is all those raised from the dead.  But some of you will say..

  wait...there is to be a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked..........and the reply is...some men will serve

  as examples of the evil contrast spirit that is described in Jude..that are not converted  but return unto

  the mudhole or the vomit.  He is showing you..through examples of men the fate of the wicked contrast

  spirit[those born of God do not  practice sin.

   the good evil contrast and enmity of the seeds is manifested in the flesh of men..to show forth in the material

  seen realm..what is operative in the unseen spiritual realm

Is the homosexual lifestyle the image and likeness of God? the adulteress lifestyle? the murdering?

  all sin marred examples are not the image and likeness of God.  BUT ALL WILL BE REMADE IN HIS

   LIKENESS..We have that promise...ALL MANKIND DOES

Great posts sheila, amen.

My thoughts are, with any sin;  we can debate the fairness of it, whether "if I do it this way is it really wrong, shouldn't it be OK then?", etc.  Attempt to reason through it as to what makes sense to us.  Sometimes I just want to do what I want to do, or what comes natural, etc.    But what do the scriptures say?  With this particular issue, I believe they clearly say it's wrong.  I don't see any "but if I love them", or "if we stay together", etc., qualifying/justifying loopholes.  And then there are the sins I personally struggle with, that the scriptures also say is wrong, even though I sometimes rationalize and try to find a way to see it as "OK".   So if that means denying myself, abstaining, crucifying my flesh, then that seems the narrow path to take. I can't do it if I don't look to Him and turn it over and over and over to Him.  I'm not strong enough. 
I certainly would think for the person born with the tendency toward homosexuality, that would be extremely difficult and they'd HAVE to have God's help, mercy, and grace if they really cared to please Him.  Same for the person born with the genetic predisposition for alcoholism, or a tendency toward food addiction (ouch to me), etc.   Jesus talked about carrying our cross and following Him.  Paul teaches us about denial of the flesh.  He said he would abstain from meat the rest of his life if he needed to. He also refrained from marriage (and sex).   I have my own (albeit nothing compared to the Savior or even Paul) cross to carry.  Many times I fail, and His grace carries me.  :2c:

And amen again sheila, as He will bring us into His likeness...either obeying and looking to Him for our Help and Deliverance (God help me) now, or living with the consequences of pleasing the flesh and only delivered as through fire later.

Blessings.

Or aren't you aware that the unjust won't inherit a share of God's Kingdom?  You must stop being led astray;   neither those who are having non-marital sexual intercourse nor those who are idol worshipers nor those who are having extramarital sexual intercourse, nor those who have a soft, self-indulgent way of life, nor those who are homosexuals, nor those who are thieves..greedy..drunkards..wound with words..take things by force, will inherit a share of God's Kingdom!  Now these are what some of you used to be , but you have bathed yourselves off, you have been purified, you have been justified through the name of the Master Yesu (the Anointed One) and by our God's Spirit.  I Cor 6:9-11  The Christian Bible (extremely literal to Koine Greek)

QuoteI also wonder why God, who is not the author of confusion would have you speak in a tongue you didn't understand and then tell you what He wanted. Why not just tell you first?

The spirit man within speaks in other tongues, this allows God to speak to the spirit within, Then this is translated by the gift of interpretation.

So one gift leads to the process of another gift, which leads to the word being spoken and understood.

This word you give doesn't inspire much confidence in UR. Please pray more to see if you have more information.

There is a huge lack in prophecy concerning UR and this is a bit disturbing. But your new gift gives hope.

Thanks for getting this back on topic Tank.   :laughing7:

Jab, I too wrestle with a certain "sin" of which seems to have more power over me than I can understand. I have wept many bitter tears over it and begged God to take it away, but here it remains. I would imagine this is probably how many homosexuals feel. My "sin" may not be the same as theirs, but I can relate to feeling trapped and hopeless in it. I don't "hear fom God" like many of you, but I got the impression He is asking me, can you believe I love you even if I don't take this away? Can you believe I love you even if I don't heal you? For years the answer has been, no. I want to be free and He won't help me. Now I am wondering if there is a larger message in the reason it still remains. I know God can, but He doesn't. There must be a reason. Is there a lesson to be learned in the experience of sin? One thing it has taught me is compassion for all fellow sinners.

Amen sister! I think almost all, if not all of us, have a sin in our life that we have prayed would be taken away and there it remains. I know I do. I reason out that if it was booze cigarettes or drugs, I could quit and I know I would live and my body would thrive. But my addiction is food and you can't quit (for any real length of time) and live and have your body thrive.
The answer is to eat fresh fruits and vegetables. If I quit eating JUNK food) I will most certainly live and my body, will thrive.
We all know what we need to do, the question is doing it. If how-to's were enough, we would all be skinny, rich and happy.
:2c: :doh:

Hi Deena.  Firstly, I'm sort of a poor example, because I've struggled with sins and lusts of the flesh pretty much my whole life, in one way or another.  On the other hand, maybe I'm a good example, because that's probably common to most humans  :dontknow:.  I truly believe it's primarily God's will that we yield to Him, submit our self and bodies to Him, and clear the way by submitting our will for Him to work through us to overcome.  He wants to grow us, mature us into HIS will.  However, I really do believe that most of us will continue to fall from time to time in one way or another.  We're clay, and if clay's not perfect, it has lumps and bubbles in it.  Also, besides just the slip-ups sort of common to being human, it seems some (many?) have a besetting sin, that just keeps coming and coming and coming...repent, admit, accept forgiveness, better for awhile, then there it is again.  Is this right for any others besides me?

So IMO, with those sins, that's totally where He has to carry us.  Maybe some of us more than others, really need that extra situation in our lives to really learn how to trust Him - His goodness, His love for us, His grace - that sustains us when we can do no better.  To me, this is a much different scenario than saying "ah, that's not really sin, I'll twist this verse around, reason it in my own mind to excuse it, God and I are still buds [I'll deceive myself and deceive others"...Sorry if this sounds harsh, but IMO, that's just giving in to pleasing the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit, and even if our spirits have been saved (that's between that person and God and that work of the cross puts us in legal right standing and our spirit's perfection in His prescence), while walking it out in this life, we are hindered from living in the Kingdom (righteousness, peace, joy, clear conscience, close fellowship with the Savior).     So I look again at Paul who said the things he WANTED to do (he wanted to do right) he couldn't do..and the things he DIDN"T want to do, those things he did.  He also talked about begging the Lord THREE TIMES (usually once with Paul was enough) to take the thorn in his flesh from him.  So he sincerely wanted to please God and his heart and will were turned and yielded to Him - but his flesh still acted up and affected him.    But Paul said God had that there for a reason.  To keep him humble and trusting God rather than trusting and glorying in himself.  He gloried in the cross of Christ.  God's answer to Him was, rather than removing it, "my grace is sufficient for you". 

I'm not sure this "christian bible" gets things right. For one, it simply translates Sodomites as homosexuals whereas we know that the sins of sodom were rape and inhospitality (this is reaffirmed in a particular verse in the OT, FYI). Also, the word "Sodomite" appears first and is introduced as a special subset of sin and sinners, ie "thieves..greedy..drunkards..wound with words..take things by force." This again fits perfectly to some of the roman and greek decadence we can find in the histories about the years of that biblical time, but it does not fit with the modern understanding of homosexuality and the lifestyle of people who identify as same sexers. There is a difference between a raper and betrayer/abuser of those who came under their roof, and a modern person that happens to love men over women. PLEASE take this into consideration and don't support the old adage that homosexual means sodomite means sinner means criminal. It does not work in God's PERFECT justice that cannot be fulfilled in the law anyway, but only in Christ, and Christ never sad anything about homosexuals at all. I understand the issue may be hard to discern for some people here but it's really important, don't call someone a sinner who just has some sexual eccentricty about him, and that's what the matter comes down to.

New faith in UR? Just speak to average christians, those who don't run into evangelical megachurches or into these small fundie churches where they isolate themselves. Don't forget to speak to Catholics ... many of them trust a salvation through hope ... they don't claim they know all the details or that they know that really every last single person would not be thrown into hell, but they in fact express hope for jews, moral atheists, muslims who are honest and devoted to Allah, pretty much everyone really, and the salvation of the disabled and the aborted babies and all is a matter of course for them. IE, they just sometimes doubt the salvation of the Hitlers and Pol Pots, and even in such cases they often hope that God will find a way to change these people. Basically they think God threatens us with Hell but it is not clear if God would ever actually follow through with damning just a single person there, apart of the devil and his angels. Anyway, just get out of hanging out in evangelical christianity all the time and you will see that there is more to christianity than railing on the hell issue or using it a lot in theology. The "normal" people know where it's at, that spiritual life is found by trusting God, believing in love and seeing the other person and interesting yourself in finding out the truth. Hell is not really a threat, it's the polar opposite of leading such a life really ... it won't overcome the church and the book of Revelation says that hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire ... it will happen someday in history, a period of intense love and spiritual devotion and enlightenment that will simply swallow up hell and sin and after which we can finally safely and happily await Christ to come back.

Thanks for your kind reply.  I'll post this info I had shared in a different thread;

if anyone can truly scripturally show that "women did change the natural use into that which is against nature" and "men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men" is not speaking against the active lifestyle of homosexuality, then I'll listen.  But IMO, it's pretty clear - and that's not even discussing the translation of malakos and arsenokoites.  Others do as well, but the most literal translation I know of translates arsenokoites as 'homosexual' - add that to the context of the references above, "women..burned.." and "men with men", and for me (as well as my conscience) it's an acceptable saying.

I am aware of the arguments over the words, including by the (what I consider) very suspect "Jesus Seminar" folks.  Based on what I've personally seen and studied (limited, I'm no scholar) I believe the translations of the following words  actually are accurate - not just the words themselves, but within a larger context of other scriptures, such as the few lines I end the post with -


I'll post the words and translations, but then also say that even without the specific words in question, the NT also defines the situation in other words -

The words and their references;

"Be not deceived, neither ...effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

"Be not deceived, neither ...abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: arsenokoites-sodomites/male bed partners/male-liers] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

Some of the other passages without "the words"...in Romans 1

"to dishonor their own bodies between themselves"
"women did change the natural use into that which is against nature"
"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

pEOPLE FORGET THAT WHEN GOD SAID..'LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE AND LIKENESS...AND

  MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM...THAT SEX ROLES WERE DEFINED FOR ETERNAL REALM

  NOW THE ADVERSARY LIKES TO 'MARR' THE APPEARANCE OF GOD.

   JUST AS GOD HAS A WIFE..JERUSALEM ABOVE..SO DOES SATAN..EVEN BABYLON.

  AS ALWAYS PLEASE SEE AND DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO CONTRASTS

  EVIL SPIRITS DO TAKE MEN CAPTIVE..AND HAVE THE POWER TO STIR UP LUST IN OUR FLESH..

  PITY THE POOR BLIND CAPTIVE THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHY DESIRE IS ONLY STIRRED

  WHEN WITH MEN.  OR A MAN THAT FINDS HIMSELF IN A WOMANS BODY,CONVINCED HE WAS

PACKAGED WRONGLY,WHILE ALL THE WHILE......IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ADVERSARY IN OPERATION

  CONVINCING  THE MAN..THAT HE IS REALLY A WOMAN.  MY PEOPLE PERISH THROUGH LACK OF

KNOWLEDGE...........

   ALL PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SHEEP AMONG WOLVES.............GOD HAS TO TELL US,AND HE SENT

   US A SHEPHERD....HE SAID   'HEAR YE HIM'

Scripture is scripture. One can play around with words and meanings but
the plainest and simplest translation usually makes things obvious - unless one goes in with a worldview bias.
70 years ago, this kind of discussion wouldn't have even taken place. It was obvious.
What's the beef about calling someone a sinner? That's what we all are. It's Just that calling someone a name does not show love for the person. Homosexuality was lumped together with the common sins of mankind, fornicators, adulterers, theives and liars.
Who has never stolen anything or never told a lie? The difference is correcting in love so that an anything goes attitude does not prevail.
You could literally have people living in sin (the bible cites a man living as man and wife with his stepmother)and proud of it citing freedom in Christ. Paul made it clear this was not to be and should not be allowed.
Suppose a man comes in and says, I'm a hit man for the mob. I just got saved and I know the spirit is in me. I have to make a living and now "in Christ" I am no longer under the law so, I'm going to keep on doing what I've been doing.
NO. Paul makes it clear that we are to stop living in habitual sin.
Rearrange the scripture all you want, but ask, "Are homosexuals letting their lives be directed by the spirit? Is what they are doing sexually glorifying God?"  - and there is no "normal" homosexual behaviour anymore than a hitman that says he only kills "bad" people so it glorifies God. :2c: 

I think it's also easy to take hardcore stances on a particular issue that doesn't effect us.  Before HIV, can anyone think of a good reason same sex couples shouldn't send the rest of their life together?  I can't.  I get drunkeness, adultery, fornication, lying, stealing...etc...all makes sense.  Two people who love each other wanting a life long commitment?  Yeah don't see the issue other than some tough passages about it in the Bible...which is obviously a huge issue.  But, I do realize my understanding of the Bible has not always been accurate, and I'm not arrogant enough to believe all my understanding is perfect.

I don't have to understand...or even think its fair.  I'm not God, He makes the rules not me.  But, how I feel about same sex marriage effects the way I love others.  It also effects the way I witness.  Let me give you two scenarios...

1) I witness to a same sex couple...invite them to church, love them, accept them...and they begin a life with Christ.  I let the Holy Spirit do, what the Holy Spirit does...which is to correct how God sees fit.  Maybe that means they split and celibacy....or maybe not...but it's not my call. 

2) I do the same thing...then tell them that what they are doing is an abomination, and they must live a celibate  life if they ever want a relationship with Christ.

If we are talking about two same sex life long partners...I personally will err own the side of loving them...and allowing the Holy Spirit to condemn.

Maybe it's a cop out, but I really do struggle with this a great deal.

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 22, 2012, 09:49:16 PM
Scripture is scripture. One can play around with words and meanings but
the plainest and simplest translation usually makes things obvious - unless one goes in with a worldview bias.
70 years ago, this kind of discussion wouldn't have even taken place. It was obvious.
What's the beef about calling someone a sinner? That's what we all are. It's Just that calling someone a name does not show love for the person. Homosexuality was lumped together with the common sins of mankind, fornicators, adulterers, theives and liars.
Who has never stolen anything or never told a lie? The difference is correcting in love so that an anything goes attitude does not prevail.
You could literally have people living in sin (the bible cites a man living as man and wife with his stepmother)and proud of it citing freedom in Christ. Paul made it clear this was not to be and should not be allowed.
Suppose a man comes in and says, I'm a hit man for the mob. I just got saved and I know the spirit is in me. I have to make a living and now "in Christ" I am no longer under the law so, I'm going to keep on doing what I've been doing.
NO. Paul makes it clear that we are to stop living in habitual sin.
Rearrange the scripture all you want, but ask, "Are homosexuals letting their lives be directed by the spirit? Is what they are doing sexually glorifying God?"  - and there is no "normal" homosexual behaviour anymore than a hitman that says he only kills "bad" people so it glorifies God. :2c:

So was hell...UR talk 70 years ago just like today is consider heresy, because hell is plain and simple.  While I believe most if not all homosexual acts to be sin, I'm not so sure it's that cut and dried even though people love black and white.  Two committed monogamous same sex adults wanting to marry and serve The Lord...would I point out their sinfulness and preach to them?  No...it's not my place...I would love them.  I would support them like any other believer...any other couple...I would let God judge their hearts and motives.

Quote from: jabcat on October 22, 2012, 03:51:15 AM
Or aren't you aware that the unjust won't inherit a share of God's Kingdom?  You must stop being led astray;   neither those who are having non-marital sexual intercourse nor those who are idol worshipers nor those who are having extramarital sexual intercourse, nor those who have a soft, self-indulgent way of life, nor those who are homosexuals, nor those who are thieves..greedy..drunkards..wound with words..take things by force, will inherit a share of God's Kingdom!  Now these are what some of you used to be , but you have bathed yourselves off, you have been purified, you have been justified through the name of the Master Yesu (the Anointed One) and by our God's Spirit.  I Cor 6:9-11  The Christian Bible (extremely literal to Koine Greek)

Soft, self-indulgent way of life would fit most of us compared to most of the world.  Who here doesn't still on occasion wound someone with our words?

I think of those 2 as well.  I'm not sure what that means exactly.  I know I've personally been reminded of that when I wanted to give somebody the business.   :punish:

Those would probably be a couple of good things to do some research on.  One thing I'm reminded of is Paul talking about a man not taking care of/providing for his family is the same as an infidel.  He also said if a man won't work he doesn't eat.  I believe assuredly that means if he's able?  Seems the rest of that list is pretty straight-forward.  But those are curious things, for sure. 

I think it's important to note the end...we are purified and justified by faith in Christ.  The stuff above is things he removes from us, freeing us from...and that is a process.  Thank God He loves an unfinished project such as myself.

I had written all of the following before reading your post.  I'll say a hearty AMEN!!!   Also, related to the end of this rant and my question to you, there's probably some things about our legal justification and how God sees us that I don't fully understand.  Jeremias has some good things to say about the finished work of the cross, even though we're still in these bodies of flesh.  Maybe he'll chime in.  I had written;

I believe most of Christendom teaches "won't inherit the kingdom" there to mean "won't get into heaven".  I personally think it's different than that, at least in some regard - but I could be wrong.  My guess is, it has to do with living in close fellowship with Him, a clear conscience before Him (Paul talked a bit about the conscience excusing or accusing, etc.).  Also, we're told the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit I believe.  So I kind of see it like this;  if I'm doing ANY of those things on that list, especially if I know better/if it's been revealed to me that it's wrong, then no, God hasn't left me, but I feel the consequences of those attitudes and behaviors, my conscience suffers for it - I become a little more like Adam and "hide from the Lord" (He knows where I am  :wink3:).  It's kind of a thing of, if I'm denying and justifying, I feel some "strain" in the relationship.  But if I'm admitting and turning it over, I tend to feel His closeness and Him carrying me.  God told David "you are the man [you're the guilty one]".  I've had Him say that to me before, in a very intense situation which I won't go into.   Actually, theologically, some of this is over my head.  What do you think?

p.s  it also may have to do with the discussion we've been having on salvation, the order being spirit, soul, body?  I.e., the spirit saved is the free gift imparted when faith is given to believe on Jesus as Savior (I believe the saved spirit is perfect and "just right" [righteous] through the blood applied; 

then the soul ["who we are"/what we do] being saved being an ongoing process [some call sanctification] that doesn't mean someone's not spiritually reborn/saved, but that there are consequences to not being obedient - a dirty conscience, harmed relationships, poor witness for Christ, destruction of health ["receiving in themselves the recompence of their error, which was just" Rm. 1:27], loss of deep-down joy and peace, and then finally loss of everything that's not of God when we experience basanismo [testing as with a touchstone] when we stand before Him in judgment.  Just some thoughts.  I may be whistling in the wind.   :dontknow:

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 22, 2012, 09:49:16 PM
Scripture is scripture. One can play around with words and meanings but
the plainest and simplest translation usually makes things obvious -

Things rarely are obvious. Layers. The top layer quite often is the least important one.

Quoteunless one goes in with a worldview bias.

That usually is wrong, but is no longer translating but force fitting.

What I glean from scripture is that sin was once defined through the law, but not so anymore ... the law used to be between us and God but now Christ is between us and God and the matter of morality doesn't have to do with the law anymore but instead with Christ's things, so that in the end we don't live by either obeying or disobeying the law, we generally live by grace through faith so that we draw salvation into our lives. That is why we had christian martyrs, martyrdom being something not demanded by the law at all, yet it was something the genuine followers of Christ underwent because Christ and his things were the principles they lived by. The function that the law had in social matters in ancient Israel (and it was only them to whom it was given), is now replaced by whatever laws and customs and moral values the country has that you live in. That is how Paul could switch sides frequently and be a jew to the jews, a greek to the greek, a slave to the slaves, a free man to the free, and so on. And that is also how morality is not set in stone, it can change and progress as we can see in the issue of slavery, and ancient Israel and its laws are in no way the pinnacle of what we see as perfect or imperfect reality. But people confuse this because we read the law was given by God and it played such a big role in OT scripture. What we need to see is how we should not pull the law into our relationship to God again, because that's a void affair because God isn't keeping the bargain anymore that in ancient Israel made up for the "expense" of following the law. Wanting to live by the law is essentially a kind of romantic dream to get back to Israel, but sorry folks, it's a useless dream and it would behoove us to draw closer to Christ again who was not a law-giver but came as our Messiah who ended the reign of the law that was only meant to testify about him anyway, in a spiritual reading.

And when we read Pauline scripture used against homosexuals, then we're not seeing a law conflict stipulated again but we see the apostle and the early church altogether struggling to come to a sensible morality, and in that endeavour they sometimes failed, I would quote the issue of slavery again that was not satisfactorily solved by the early church but which was solved in the 18th and 19th and 20th century. And in likewise the issue of homosexuality was not satisfactorily solved by the early church and that now we need to once more "exceed the righteousness of the pharisees".

What it comes down is, what do we know of Christ and how can we live so that we are compatible to Him? What Christ do we actually have, what does He do for us? Is He something like the agent of Moses and hence an agent of the law, or does He supersede the things of Moses? On the Mount of Transfiguration Moses comes to Jesus, but God in the cloud says to Peter, listen to my son, in HIM I AM WELL PLEASED. How could the law that is the power of sin please the God of love and salvation? It does not make sense to keep the law for us, it was a thing meant for old ages and it's not our law anymore. And as far as morality and ethics are concerned, we should remember the Paradise incident and the good and evil knowledge that God didn't want for us in the first place, and that Jesus very simply said to the dying thief, "Thou shalt be with me in paradise today". Basically in Jesus we can enter Paradise again and leave behind the millennia of human history that were largely a failure as far as life with God is concerned. And in Paradise we are simply together with God in Christ, and that's our freedom.

Christian life consists of living in freedom and being Christ's disciples. I know this sounds difficult if we remember the discipleship commandments from the Gospels, but again these were spoken to the jews and simply describe the period of Christ being on his ministry before it culminated with the Cross where Christ simply didn't want so many followers because they might have declared him king prematurely, and in fact Jesus needed another royal annointment, the crucifixion and the resurrection. And now we live in another period where christian discipleship is an easier affair because it's done in the church, in the sheep pen, so to speak, and while we praise those who do much service to Christ we are not simply a Salvation Army recruiting everyone to the same services. Instead our lives are our playing field and our exercises of love and faith within that life. and love and faith are things which can be worked in whatever you want to do so we're remaining free people, not just sons charged with a consuming job that runs 24/7 - Christ is also the Lord of the Sabbath.

Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2012, 08:15:58 AM
I had written all of the following before reading your post.  I'll say a hearty AMEN!!!   Also, related to the end of this rant and my question to you, there's probably some things about our legal justification and how God sees us that I don't fully understand.  Jeremias has some good things to say about the finished work of the cross, even though we're still in these bodies of flesh.  Maybe he'll chime in.  I had written;

I believe most of Christendom teaches "won't inherit the kingdom" there to mean "won't get into heaven".  I personally think it's different than that, at least in some regard - but I could be wrong.  My guess is, it has to do with living in close fellowship with Him, a clear conscience before Him (Paul talked a bit about the conscience excusing or accusing, etc.).  Also, we're told the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit I believe.  So I kind of see it like this;  if I'm doing ANY of those things on that list, especially if I know better/if it's been revealed to me that it's wrong, then no, God hasn't left me, but I feel the consequences of those attitudes and behaviors, my conscience suffers for it - I become a little more like Adam and "hide from the Lord" (He knows where I am  :wink3:).  It's kind of a thing of, if I'm denying and justifying, I feel some "strain" in the relationship.  But if I'm admitting and turning it over, I tend to feel His closeness and Him carrying me.  God told David "you are the man [you're the guilty one]".  I've had Him say that to me before, in a very intense situation which I won't go into.   Actually, theologically, some of this is over my head.  What do you think?

Jab, I think you really nailed it.  I would agree with that...much of that I talk about in my blog.  It's that guilt and shame...that hiding of ourselves...that I believe interrupts relationship on our end.  When we violate that internal moral compass given to us by God a wedge sets up in our hearts and minds.  Our thoughts turn inward...on self...instead of onto Christ.  It's this mix of egocentric, guilt laden pride, perfectionist attitudes that tell us if we screw up we are just a little less loveable.  We feel less loveable...we believe we are less...and when that seed of egocentric insecurity grows it looks like depression, anxiety, seperation from God, weeping and gnashing of teeth.  We are to avoid sin because it is not profitable for our spiritual growth...not because it somehow nullifies the Cross and it's effectiveness to reconciliate all of creation.  Good post.

Quote from: shawn on October 23, 2012, 07:14:03 PM

Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2012, 08:15:58 AM
I had written all of the following before reading your post.  I'll say a hearty AMEN!!!   Also, related to the end of this rant and my question to you, there's probably some things about our legal justification and how God sees us that I don't fully understand.  Jeremias has some good things to say about the finished work of the cross, even though we're still in these bodies of flesh.  Maybe he'll chime in.  I had written;

I believe most of Christendom teaches "won't inherit the kingdom" there to mean "won't get into heaven".  I personally think it's different than that, at least in some regard - but I could be wrong.  My guess is, it has to do with living in close fellowship with Him, a clear conscience before Him (Paul talked a bit about the conscience excusing or accusing, etc.).  Also, we're told the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit I believe.  So I kind of see it like this;  if I'm doing ANY of those things on that list, especially if I know better/if it's been revealed to me that it's wrong, then no, God hasn't left me, but I feel the consequences of those attitudes and behaviors, my conscience suffers for it - I become a little more like Adam and "hide from the Lord" (He knows where I am  :wink3:).  It's kind of a thing of, if I'm denying and justifying, I feel some "strain" in the relationship.  But if I'm admitting and turning it over, I tend to feel His closeness and Him carrying me.  God told David "you are the man [you're the guilty one]".  I've had Him say that to me before, in a very intense situation which I won't go into.   Actually, theologically, some of this is over my head.  What do you think?

Jab, I think you really nailed it.  I would agree with that...much of that I talk about in my blog.  It's that guilt and shame...that hiding of ourselves...that I believe interrupts relationship on our end.  When we violate that internal moral compass given to us by God a wedge sets up in our hearts and minds.  Our thoughts turn inward...on self...instead of onto Christ.  It's this mix of egocentric, guilt laden pride, perfectionist attitudes that tell us if we screw up we are just a little less loveable.  We feel less loveable...we believe we are less...and when that seed of egocentric insecurity grows it looks like depression, anxiety, seperation from God, weeping and gnashing of teeth.  We are to avoid sin because it is not profitable for our spiritual growth...not because it somehow nullifies the Cross and it's effectiveness to reconciliate all of creation.  Good post.

Amen.

Now to actually believe it and walk it out, eh? It's so hard sometimes especially when you are so used to being condemned, rejected, and abandoned for every little (or big) slip up. Spending silent time before Him and really getting to know his true nature has really helped. Still a work in progress for sure though, as this head knowledge becomes heart knowledge.

used to..when I flubbed up...I would run and hide[hole up] from Him[after all my salvation was dependant

  on works,right?}

  once I found out about the salvation of All...I knew I was included!!!..once I found out He was not

  counting my tresspasses against me...I no longer run from Him..but to HIM..for help with them..

  instead of being ashamed away at His presence....there became an intimacy with Him..that I never

  enjoyed before...a close relationship with Him as my Saviour..not my condemne rbut  my helper

   it is a very bad thing when sheep go off feeling dejected from their Shepherd

 :HeartThrob:

There is a poem I read once called Stupid Sheep. I loved it. It was like it was written for me LOL. :)

I keep running to Him because He is all I have right now and I am very sure there is a very good reason for that. His love is chipping away at my defenses and I keep begging for the trust in Him I once had, back when I was 17 and a brand new Christian. Not completely sure what happened between then and now (apart from the hellish doctrines of the church but they are no longer a part of me). In any case the fear spirits (fear of rejection and abandonment) are giving me a really hard go right now and of course the accuser loves to keep me frustrated that I am even struggling with these things. The enemy has been having a grand old time around here lol. I'm about ready to strangle him lol.

I agree Lomarah...there is a difference in head and heart knowledge.  I say certain things but it's hard to truly accept them.  I know the truth but it's hard to believe the truth.

I too have serious abandonment issues...with the apex of that fear being that God will give up on me...and desert me.  I fear that he will leave me like this...like somehow I will finally break the back of grace.  It's why we set up relationships with things we can control....that extra burger wont leave us, ebay is there for us 24/7, that beer always seems to comfort us when ever we need it to.  It works until it doesn't work and we hit a bottom.  These idols we set up will consume us, and drive us to the only solution which is Jesus Christ.

I am convinced that my worst enemy doesn't have horns and a pitch fork.  My worst enemy is within...that battle between the ears.  I do these things to myself.  When I struggle most of the time I caused the drama, chaos and grief.  I did it this weekend when I mistreated my wife...stressed out...overworked and allowed words to come out of my mouth that I deeply regret.  Right now, I'm eat up with guilt.  I wonder...will I ever get this?  Will I ever walk out love consistently?  I have no choice but to lean upon grace and the goodness of God.  I have tried everything else...nothing satisfies but our Savior.

Thanks, good discussion guys.  :)

Shawn - I feel for you my brother.
"I did it this weekend when I mistreated my wife...stressed out...overworked and allowed words to come out of my mouth that I deeply regret.  Right now, I'm eat up with guilt.  I wonder...will I ever get this?  Will I ever walk out love consistently?  I have no choice but to lean upon grace and the goodness of God.  I have tried everything else...nothing satisfies but our Savior."
I've done the same thing. This has worked for me and may work for you.
Ask God for forgiveness.
Go to your wife, apologise, tell her you straightened it out with God and want forgivenss from her also.
Take her in your arms, hold her close, whisper in her ear, "I love you, you are a part of me"
Offer a foot or back massage and while doing this listen to her talk. If she is silent, tell her all the things you love about her and how blessed you are to have her for your life partner. Do NOT proceed more physically without encouragement.
Don't let her see this comment. :friendstu:

As to whether your wondering will I ever "get this?"
Unfortunately, not in this lifetime. We can always make steady improvemnet by leaning and trusting on the finished work on the cross and the ongoing work of the spirit in our lives. But, we will not be perfect and will always know that we could have been better. That's why Paul urges us "forgetting that which is past" and urging us to push on toward the goal which is Christ himself.

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 23, 2012, 10:59:01 PM
Shawn - I feel for you my brother.
"I did it this weekend when I mistreated my wife...stressed out...overworked and allowed words to come out of my mouth that I deeply regret.  Right now, I'm eat up with guilt.  I wonder...will I ever get this?  Will I ever walk out love consistently?  I have no choice but to lean upon grace and the goodness of God.  I have tried everything else...nothing satisfies but our Savior."
I've done the same thing. This has worked for me and may work for you.
Ask God for forgiveness.
Go to your wife, apologise, tell her you straightened it out with God and want forgivenss from her also.
Take her in your arms, hold her close, whisper in her ear, "I love you, you are a part of me"
Offer a foot or back massage and while doing this listen to her talk. If she is silent, tell her all the things you love about her and how blessed you are to have her for your life partner. Do NOT proceed more physically without encouragement.
Don't let her see this comment. :friendstu:

Shawn: definitely take this advice. And as you are hiding the comment from your wife I will be emailing it in bold to my husband.  :gimmefive:

In all seriousness, if that were to be done in sincerity that would be amazing. You actually brought me to tears ded. :)

My wife and I have much history.  She is not an easy one to make up with.  Before I wrote this post, I apologized in word and deed...spending a couple hours cleaning the kitchen she was dreading to clean...then verbally apologized.  Once our fights get to a certain point nothing but her letting me have it for hours will suffice.  It's that baggage we all carry into a marriage.  We made up after several hours of discussion.  I just keep wondering how I get myself into these messes.  Why I allow myself to lose my temper...I wonder why the flesh takes over.  Nature of the flesh I guess...just wish I didn't have to continue saying things I regret.

Quote from: shawn on October 24, 2012, 08:02:52 AM
I wonder why the flesh takes over.

Maybe because you focus to much on it?

"Watched pot never boils."

WW...that might be the case but I don't believe it to be the case.  I grow aware of it after I receive consequences for fleshly acts. 

Be encouraged brother that you are at least aware of the problem. Christ IS working to show you what you need to improve, but He has paid for your mistaskes IN FULL.
The flesh struggles aginst the Spirit.
Fortuantely this life is temporary, and the coming one overcomes all the previous problems.

Shawn, The reason I told you what I did, is partly because your wife will feel different toward you but mostly because you will feel differently toward her. Whenever we feel angry or upset with a person (and do not let the sun go down on your anger) first thing to do is apologize and then do a (or more than one) loving act. I've noticed that when I'm angry with my wife, we are both changed by the foot rub. (She's on her feet all day) When the anger is welling up, switch to thoughts of what is good and true and pure and lovely and try to think of acts of love toward her. She is yelling at you? Don't yell back. Kiss her. She's throwing things at you? Put your arms around her in embrace. Let only kind and gentle words come out of your mouth if you say anything at all. "a soft answer turns away wrath" The natural man in us is to retaliate, seek revenge and hurt those we perceive as hurting us. Things escalate when our natural man acts. Loving acts changes everything.
My marriage was shaky until I started doing and acting as I am suggesting. True, it may not "feel" right or sincere the first few times but when I saw the miracle change in us and our relationship I do it totally in love now.

Maybe the first churches had something with the "footwashing" I bet it would be hard to stay mad at someone that washed your feet or to be mad at someone that you were washing their feet.
Lomarrah, thank you for your kind words -  :friendstu:

That all depends.  :eeew: :gfish:  :laugh:

CHB

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 24, 2012, 04:14:16 PM
Shawn, The reason I told you what I did, is partly because your wife will feel different toward you but mostly because you will feel differently toward her. Whenever we feel angry or upset with a person (and do not let the sun go down on your anger) first thing to do is apologize and then do a (or more than one) loving act. I've noticed that when I'm angry with my wife, we are both changed by the foot rub. (She's on her feet all day) When the anger is welling up, switch to thoughts of what is good and true and pure and lovely and try to think of acts of love toward her. She is yelling at you? Don't yell back. Kiss her. She's throwing things at you? Put your arms around her in embrace. Let only kind and gentle words come out of your mouth if you say anything at all. "a soft answer turns away wrath" The natural man in us is to retaliate, seek revenge and hurt those we perceive as hurting us. Things escalate when our natural man acts. Loving acts changes everything.
My marriage was shaky until I started doing and acting as I am suggesting. True, it may not "feel" right or sincere the first few times but when I saw the miracle change in us and our relationship I do it totally in love now.

Maybe the first churches had something with the "footwashing" I bet it would be hard to stay mad at someone that washed your feet or to be mad at someone that you were washing their feet.
Lomarrah, thank you for your kind words -  :friendstu:

I think all of that is terrific advice.  And I agree about the foot washing.  I have no idea why but everytime I think about a person doing that for another it brings a tear to my eye.  Its a superb form of humility manifesting itself in service.  It's a beautiful act.

20 years later, he was dead from aids. Yes, he had a partner and they lived together for 18 years before his death but as he told me, "the majority of homosexuals with "life partners" "fool around" with others

This seems to be making the case that it is the adultery.
Not the homosexuality that is being corrected.

Amram married his father's sister Jochebed, and she bore him Aaron and Moses.

If I married my Aunt ( my fathers sister) It would be illegal.

This would make my two children Aaron and Moses either bastards
or legal nonconforming.

Moses gave this law to the nation of Israel.

A man is not to marry his father's wife;
he must not violate his father's marriage bed.

Your fathers wife is a no go.Your fathers sister still a go.

But if you can become free, by all means take the opportunity  For he who is called by the Lord as a slave is the Lord's freedman Likewise he who is called as a free man] is Christ's slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

Brothers, each person should remain with God in whatever situation he was called.


If I am a person Married in a same sex relationship.
Then suddenly the Spirit of God convinces me that Jesus loves me.

I have now in my heart a Love
I have never had before for my partner
my family and Gods children in general .

Should I tell my partner God wants us to get a Divorce.

So if I'm a professional hit man and get saved, I should stay in that same situation?
Adam had all the genes for the entire race of man. At first, because of this diversity it was OK for brothers and sisters to marry. "Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters." Obviously Adam and Eve's children intermarried and as time went by the gene pool narrowed until the prohibition was given against marrying close family relations. It's like purebred dogs. They keep inbreeding to maintain a "look" but these purebred dogs are prone to all sorts of problems like hip dysplasia, glaucoma, brittle bones... stuff you just don't find in"mongrel" dogs. Mongrel dogs are always healthier, coming from a larger gene pool. The "not marrying your Fathers wife" was more a respect thing since it was ok and expected early on to marry your sister-in-law if your brother should die.

The case against homosexuality is, 2 reasons (besides the bible warnings) 1.) is the adultery (which is rampant in the homosexual community) which is also wrong between heterosexuals. 2.) is the anal intercourse which (according to health researchers) causes a myriad of problems to the receiver (male or female) and some to the "giver". The average homosexual male lives alomost 20 years less than the average heterosexual male and lesbians average 2-4 years less. I won't go into all the stuff since re-readfing, I see some potentially offensive remarks and I don't want to offend anyone.
And... I have no need to try to convince anyone since Everyone makes their own interpretation of scripture and justifies their every behaviour. :friendstu: 

I would hope and only ask that you would believe that I believe this.

I had what the world would call a fracturing of my psyche.
I am aware of three distinctions of myself.
The flesh, the soul , and the Spirit.

As the flesh and the soul for years have conspired
to keep me from seeing the spirit as one of us.

The Spirit and the soul have conspired and
kept me from seeing the flesh as one of us .

The soul asked the Spirit how come I don't see the flesh
hanging around with me anymore?
The Spirit told me it was because the flesh had Died.

I was so fond of the flesh that even though it was dead.
I still wanted it to be around I felt naked without it.

When I see my brothers and sisters I have mixed feelings
On one hand if I look upon their flesh,
I have to use the dead eyes of my flesh.

When I look with the Spirit I see their nakedness.

Daj,
I DO believe you believe that. If anything I said was offensive, I do apologise for that. I will not and cannot back down on what I see as the plain truth of the word of God. In the past 43 years of being a Christiian, I would think that well, "that was then, this is now" and I would do just what I said others do... Justify my slant if it varied from scripture. I found out it has always been me that has been wrong and never scripture. Hey, we all had to "justify" God's torturing when we believed ET was a possibility. What a relief to find all the scriptures that show God is love and not a sadistic torturer.

I took a buddy of mine to church.

It was a Pentecostal church.
The sermon was on demons and how to cast them out.

My buddy was very big and in good shape.
He was dressed as usual for riding his Harley.
The pastor came over to us after.
I introduced Mike to the pastor.
The pastor with-out saying hello or any sort of cordiality.
Sees a pack of cigarettes in the top pocket of Mikes
leather vest.
He flicked the pack with his finger and said to Mike.
I see you have a demon would you like me to cast it out of you.
Mike looked at the over weight pastor.
Mike responded "Sure but first we have to have a race around
the out side of the Church.
I burst out laughing the more I tried to suppress it the worst
it was. I tried to stop laughing but at his point I was to far gone.

We had started to attract the attention of many milling
around in the church.
The pastor was turning red and was trying to yell at us but couldn't.

With out even asking what was going on we were escorted out of the Church.
The group of men telling us to get out, they started yelling in tongues at us
and binding us in the name of Jesus.

In retrospect I should not have laughed when Mike,
showed the pastor that the pastor was naked. 

     

Do not be naked.


Instead, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, and do not obey your flesh and its desires. Rom 13:14

Daj,
Reminded me of two things. One was the question of why didn't God heal amputees. The second was a cartoon joke that shows a real fat guy and a regular sized pastor. The pastor has his head on the fat guy and shouts out, "Be Healed of Obesity" The next panel showed a trim guy but because of his weight loss his pants were down around his ankles in front of the whole church. :LH:

I Love to laugh at my frailties and vulnerabilities  :pointlaugh:

Me too - keeps me from crying

Quote from: ded2daworld on October 26, 2012, 06:42:48 PM
So if I'm a professional hit man and get saved, I should stay in that same situation?

The case against homosexuality is...... the bible warnings...

And... I have no need to try to convince anyone since Everyone makes their own interpretation of scripture and justifies their every behaviour. :friendstu:

:2thumbs:

So if I'm a professional hit man and get saved, I should stay in that same situation?

If I was a professional hit man and work for the worlds most accurate and deadly
sniper unit in the C.Int.C.

If I get saved should I stay, should I resign.?
What if I want to resign and the chaplain convinces me it is my
patriotic duty to Canada to stay.

Should I rather just stay were I found Christ and hope that he will lead
and I would follow.   

Don't forget Paul that told others to stay in the situation Christ found them, it did not include bondage/slavery. He recommended that if a slave COULD get free legally, then it was allright and recommended to do so - and - if he preferred to stay in bondage to an earthly master he sdhould do that too.

Canada has an Central intelligence unit like our CIA? We have enemies and kill people all over the world with ours, I had no idea Canada even had any enemies or spies.
If you want to resign, it's between you and God and NOBODY else-chaplain or not. -and your wife if married.
Don't forget, we are foreigners in a foreign land and Jesus has made us "citizens of heaven." Why would you let anyone anywhere talk you out of a God decision?

I had no idea Canada even had any enemies or spies.

We don't but when our big brother doesn't want to get
his hands dirty .
That's when sneaky little bro steps in.

Can't get away from politics till God is not only our Lord but King.

One question is what functions as authority in each of our lives?  Is it the best that I know, my present understanding within the limits of my knowledge?  Even this is sometimes supplanted by passionate quickenings from the fleshes sensations.  To mature beyond a high form of an animal, cunning and strong, there must be a change of headship.  It's like one set of nerves to our head must be severed and those with a different life from another head must be in their place.  We go on alone, slowed in our transformation because there is no many-membered corporate ministry one to another.

When we cannot participate in what should be our gathering for spiritual development and must function instead as either part of an audience enabling the preacher or being that preacher, usually without ever considering whether to meet without human headship, where then shall we develop that headship of Christ in our individual lives?  Because of this so many otherwise good people are spiritually withered and nearly functionless, like early abortions that shouldn't have lived but go on anyway as tragic deformed revenants and zombie hordes.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 04, 2012, 02:48:36 PM
One question is what functions as authority in each of our lives?  Is it the best that I know, my present understanding within the limits of my knowledge?  Even this is sometimes supplanted by passionate quickenings from the fleshes sensations.  To mature beyond a high form of an animal, cunning and strong, there must be a change of headship.  It's like one set of nerves to our head must be severed and those with a different life from another head must be in their place.  We go on alone, slowed in our transformation because there is no many-membered corporate ministry one to another.

When we cannot participate in what should be our gathering for spiritual development and must function instead as either part of an audience enabling the preacher or being that preacher, usually without ever considering whether to meet without human headship, where then shall we develop that headship of Christ in our individual lives?  Because of this so many otherwise good people are spiritually withered and nearly functionless, like early abortions that shouldn't have lived but go on anyway as tragic deformed revenants and zombie hordes.

Amen and WOW this reminded me of a dream that I had about a month or so ago, it seemed to have been from God, and this is actually shedding a bit of light on it. Wow!

IMO the law was given by God, as a "shadow" of things to come.

It was a "tutor" to lead us to Christ.

Showing us our need for grace, and pointing us in a direction that is profitable for "wholly living".

Adultery, fornication, homosexuality- these are tragic flaws that bring death and disruption to ones life and God does not prohibit them out of an "arbitrary" sense of good and evil, but because in the "deeper truth of the creation" the life of God is hidden within His order and the harmony of principles upon which He founded the kosmos.

Evil is that which hurts you, hurts another, is an affront to God's love, breaks "the hidden ties that bind".

I have a saying, it is a little uncouth, but it makes sense to me.

"All you have to do is look at how the parts go together."

I have friends who are gay. Some of them know where I stand on it, some don't. I believe all of them kno that I love them and that I believe God loves them.

I really appreciated Jabcat's perspective on this and agree with it exactly.

I also agree with Sheila's post. Homosexual sin is not worse than heterosexual sin. All sin is missing the mark of "wholly" living in the light of God. Pride, arrogance, greed, religious spirit, violence, deception,etc. are also sins.

But, IMO, there are measures of sin(sin unto death, sin not unto death (1 John 5:16)

In my opinion sins unto death are those sins that were to bring the death penalty under the law. Some of them were: witchcraft, adultery(Deu 22, Leviticus 20), rape, murder, incest. There are sins that are not unto death like lying, lust, theft, drunkenness, gluttony.

For a man to lie with a man sexually was a sin unto death.

Whatever sinful propensity we are "born with" in life- we are called to resist it our whole life long. For one it is predominantly lusts of the flesh-hetero or homo. For another it is greed and violence. For another it is pride and self-righteousness. For another it is bitterness and hatred, and so on and on.

All of us are saved from "sin". Sins are just the areas where "sin" attacks us and manifests and controls our lives to keep us unfruitful and "in the flesh", "in death."

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
(Tit 2:11-14)

As Jabcat said, as Christians, this is just the cross in our lives, and the reason we cast ourselves upon the Lord and seek to be "strengthened with might by His Spirit in our inner man" and to "yield our bodies as a living sacrifice....and be not conformed to this world but be renewed in the spirit of our mind."

God will eventually save all, but Christians who indulge in the sins of the flesh(especially sins unto death) are like someone who crosses the poles when trying to charge a battery. Lots of sparks, and a car that won't start and maybe a person electrocuted.

Also, we are never called to stay in sin. "Staying as we are" referred to the legitimate conditions of "single" or "married".

Being a soldier is not necessarily sinful, but let each man walk according to his conscience- to him who feels it is sinful to kill under any circumstance, it probably is- but John never told soldiers to leave the Roman army- he just warned them not to use their power wrongly. Paul taught that the sword is God-ordained. It is a function of government that is approved in theory, but can be disapproved because of unrighteousness in practice-"Judge for yourselves whether it is better to listen to God or to men".

EW - once again, I second those thoughts. :thumbsup:

EW, I can always count on you to clear up muddy waters.  I was sharpened and encouraged by your post.

I am not condeming gays nor am I against them except to say I do think it is a sin. But, if you are guilty of the least, you are guilty of the whole. I don't think one sin is worse than another in God's eyes, now with us humans we see this different.

What I wanted to point out is. Have you ever noticed how two men that are gay, usually one of them acts feminine? If there are two lesbians together usually one of them acts like a male in some fashion. It can be talk, looks, or something else. I find this odd. If a man wants to be with a man, or a woman with a woman, why have one who acts like someone they are not interested in? I think it is inbred within us that God made male and female for each other. Even if we don't realize it we still can't get away from this fact.

CHB   

Some here expressed the idea that we have a (God given) right to enjoy our lives, including sexual pleasure.  It is still our "right" if that is in a homosexual relationship.  Isn't it interesting how this sounds like an alcoholic's justification for having a drink?  (Some later editing may have toned down that particular as I sought it out to quote and didn't find it.)  Having waited to participate very much on this topic, partly because there's a certain wearying of the flesh in having to keep saying the same things over and over, I watched others speak the truth in love and noticed the answer to this idea of our natural rights stand out to me as something important to be said.

Jesus says, "If any man forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."  How does that sound like we have the right to a fulfilled Adamic life?  "Who is baptized into Christ is baptized into His death."  It a death to homo sapiens Jesus underwent.  Then He was raised in an incorruptible deathless body, ascending into the Father's throne, which is over all.  This homo novae, "the new man," is what we are now.  "We have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the Son of His love."

"As Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also let us be walking in newness of life."  The death of Adam and our change into the new man, these are what the "after-mind," (Greek is metanoia) connects to the evidences of the Adamic nature when manifesting.  The problem is the Institutionalized religious world that claims it is the Church harps on sin and at best, the outer court understandings of the altar and laver, which is judgement and cleansing for sin.  Theirs is a legalistic (and doomed to failure) attempt to correct, improve and fulfill Adam when the true ministry from God is the gracious feeding, upbuilding and corporate unleashing of the new man.

The proof that we are entirely of Christ now is we no longer follow the "eMOTIONing" of the flesh, at least fighting it instead on the side of those who, "Walk not after the flesh," "...to not fulfill its lusts or the desires of the mind," "...but, taking steps to walk around, following after the spirit."  Even when prisoners of war we are a testimony of that newness of life which we have.  We do not capitulate to our captors to become citizens of their country.  We are of "Another country, an heavenly," a celestial realm.

Though it proves to be a prolonged struggle, as scripture is saying, "We wrestle." And it is, "Not against flesh and blood..."  It is other powers and principalities, spirits, wicked spiritual gifts, higher realm things, things of higher dimensions than where the physical body resides that we continue struggling against.  We war against, "...every evil imagination of the heart."  We, "...cast down every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. thought   It is a battle for our souls, the thoughts, will and emotions.  Scripture speaks of, "Receiving the end of our faith, the salvation of our soul."

It is important to realize the flesh nature in the mind that is according to it will not change until we happen upon being physically transformed, "...from this body of humiliation into a body like His body of glory."  Like the fish that was caught in the kingdom net which was thrown back because it was too small, some have started in the Way with a wrong focus on one's own change.  It is the radiating glory of presence of God we are to perceive which is how we are changed.  For this season, salvation is not about how I am different in my flesh, but how His presence is with me.

Jesus says, "If any person will not deny himself and take up his cross daily to follow me, he is not worthy to be my disciple."  When Paul says, "I know that in myself, that is my flesh, there dwells not any good thing..." he defines what in particular is being singled out to be denied that Jesus speaks of as necessary.  This does not mean there is any wrong in having flesh.  We are spirit, soul and body in a unity which includes existence as incarnated beings.  Jesus has forever sanctified our having mortal bodies by Himself being incarnated.  It is the ascendency of spirit which the new man maintains over the rest of his being.  Ordinarily it is with the passage of time God establishes this new order, eventually changing us, "...into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

 :iagree:

Quote from: reFORMer
Some here expressed the idea that we have a (God given) right to enjoy our lives, including sexual pleasure.  It is still our "right" if that is in a homosexual relationship.

Paul said ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL UNTO ME but all things are NOT PROFITABLE: all things are lawful for me BUT I WILL NOT BE BROUGHT UNDER THE POWER OF ANY.

I think what he is saying here is; it was lawful for him to do anything he wanted to do because he wasn't under any laws but he knew a lot of things wasn't benificial or helpful to him in any way. Such things as drinking, drugs, sexual promiscuousness, and other things. Paul wasn't about to become addicted to any of it, nor let any of it rule him.

CHB

in the test of jealousy a womans head was uncovered[woman under law]  if her desire was for her

  husband[law written in our hearts]she would not expierence any of the curses[spiritualplagues] and be

able to conceive and bear a son.[women quit covering heads in 50's 60's at time of sexual revolution

  in this country.]

   Babylon's desire was to fornicating with the kings of the earth[cage of demons] her belly swells but

not with child/christ but with abominations of the earth.  Uncover her thigh exposes the falling away

  of the thigh .

   This come to mind with the 'no longer under law/covering]  of your post.

   also Jesus addresses the same thing in His speech regarding which is greater the gift or the altar that

  makes the gift most Holy.  If the Law covenant exposes what is in people's heart...all the more

  does the  Grace of God