Tentmaker Forum

Why did God make substances that have such remarkable effects on the brain? Examples include marijuana, psilocybin mushrooms, and peyote. Also, you may or may not have heard of DMT (dimethyltryptamine), which is actually inside our very own brains (as well as animals' and thousands of plants). There's actually a theory that all these near death experiences we hear about are cause by DMT spilling out of our pineal gland, the part of the brain in which it's contained (see the book DMT: The Spirit Molecule by Rick Strassman, M.D.) Also, many people who've done DMT claim specifically to have seen God.

I'll have to look for the book, I can't remember the name, but it was about NDE's as well, and in it he refuted the DMT theory, having had subjects who had experienced NDE's with vivid details, technical details, things that could not be seen by the patient from where they were, and that were beyond the scope of the subjects education or understanding.

I'm not sure where are you going with this.

But do you believe that someone claiming to have seen God actually did.


I would say Drug abuise is the problem any chemical or substance can be found to have a good use.


Some people get high off paint thinner.   

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 30, 2008, 06:47:33 PMSome people get high off paint thinner.

What a horrible comparison to make. You seem to think getting high is the result of damaging the brain in some way. This is ignorance. Did you know that we have cannabinoid receptors in our brain, which is what marijuana (cannabis) stimulates.

Pharmaceutical abuse, is called, witchcraft and sorcery in Scripture.

Where? By the way, witches did used to use drugs (like belladonna.)

Quote from: Paul on June 30, 2008, 06:52:03 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 30, 2008, 06:47:33 PMSome people get high off paint thinner.

What a horrible comparison to make. You seem to think getting high is the result of damaging the brain in some way. This is ignorance. Did you know that we have cannabinoid receptors in our brain, which is what marijuana (cannabis) stimulates.

The comparison I made was accurate with the point I made which was concerning the abuse of a substance.  So please refrain from taking my comments out of context.

I qualified my whole post by saying I was not sure where you where going with the topic.

So I will ask you again.

Do you believe that someone claiming to have seen God actually did?


Secondly, Pot is capable of damaging the brain if abused. 


Are you asking why God made drugs in the sense that he may have gave us a pathway to see him?   Are you questioning why God made them because of all the problems associated with them?


Is getting High from your perspective paramount to experiencing God.

Please explain yourself more.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 30, 2008, 07:12:43 PMSecondly, Pot is capable of damaging the brain if abused.

Can you back that up?

And I don't believe in God, so I can't really answer your question.

Quote from: Paul on June 30, 2008, 07:38:02 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 30, 2008, 07:12:43 PMSecondly, Pot is capable of damaging the brain if abused.

Can you back that up?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/04/2264668.htm
http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20080506-17437-5.html

This is from
http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/effects-of-marijuana.htm

Quote
Effects of Marijuana on the Brain:

Researchers have found that THC changes the way in which sensory information gets into and is acted on by the hippocampus. This is a component of the brain's limbic system that is crucial for learning, memory, and the integration of sensory experiences with emotions and motivations. Investigations have shown that neurons in the information processing system of the hippocampus and the activity of the nerve fibers are suppressed by THC. In addition, researchers have discovered that learned behaviors, which depend on the hippocampus, also deteriorate.

Recent research findings also indicate that long-term use of marijuana produces changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term use of other major drugs of abuse.

And yes I am aware of all the studies done that say otherwise, but we can also use a bit of common sense as well. 

I am talking about abuse primarily. The Law of Averages will say that you can find a percentage of abusers that haven't damaged their brain.

One study I saw that concluded Pot does not damage the brain said they recognized the difference in a brain of a heavy user but didn't believe it was significant.  What they did not explain is how they came to the conclusion that it was not important which  IS significant.

Quote
And I don't believe in God, so I can't really answer your question.

I understand.

This is interesting:


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

--Galatians 5



"sorcery" [witchcraft]
G5331
φαρμακεία
pharmakeia
far-mak-i'-ah
From G5332; medication ("pharmacy"), that is, (by extension) magic (literal or figurative): - sorcery, witchcraft.



G5332
φαρμακεύς
pharmakeus
far-mak-yoos'
From φάρμακον pharmakon (a drug, that is, spell giving potion); a druggist ("pharmacist") or poisoner, that is, (by extension) a magician: - sorcerer.

The human brain does not stop growing until about the age of 25.  Certainly any organism that is still in the growth stage will be particularly susceptible to foreign substances introduced, and, in fact, information has been coming out in recent years that pot damages the growing brain--certainly drugs like heroin, meth,etc.--but it only stands to reason.

If you want to meet satan's minions, go search out a drug trader hooking kids.  If you want to meet satan, himself, go search out the kingpin--you might be surprised.

Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2008, 08:05:03 PM
The human brain does not stop growing until about the age of 25.  Certainly any organism that is still in the growth stage will be particularly susceptible to foreign substances introduced, and, in fact, information has been coming out in recent years that pot damages the growing brain--certainly drugs like heroin, meth,etc.--but it only stands to reason.

Heroin is just an enhanced form of morphine (diacetylmorphine); it's used medically in the U.K. Some drugs do cause brain damage; meth is one them.

http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3475#12

Quote from: Paul on June 30, 2008, 08:15:45 PM

Quote from: Molly on June 30, 2008, 08:05:03 PM
The human brain does not stop growing until about the age of 25.  Certainly any organism that is still in the growth stage will be particularly susceptible to foreign substances introduced, and, in fact, information has been coming out in recent years that pot damages the growing brain--certainly drugs like heroin, meth,etc.--but it only stands to reason.

Heroin is just an enhanced form of morphine (diacetylmorphine); it's used medically in the U.K. Some drugs do cause brain damage; meth is one them.

http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3475#12

And, this means what?  Heroin is a highly addictive drug, that once addicted, is not easily stopped.

Morphine is a class A narcotic, last time I checked.

So the point is what? It's ok to be addicted?

Even the adult brain changes when these types of drugs are used over a period of time.

Morphine is one of the most popularly used painkillers. It's what they give in emergencies when someone gets shot or gets in an accident. Heroin, which is a form of it, is used in the U.K. You said it surely caused brain damage, and I was just pointing out that you're wrong.

And no, I'm not saying it's ok to be addicted. It's addictive after continuous use; it's not inherently evil.

I was recently prescribed oxycodone (popularly known as OxyContin) for my wisdom teeth. Did I get addicted? No. Did it make me feel great? Yeah.

I'm not saying it's not ok to use these drugs in a clinically controlled setting for specific purposes (pain control after an operation, for instance).

But--that's a whole lot different from buying them in the street and shooting yourself up.

The very fact of being addicted is proof that one has suffered brain damage.

The brain can no longer function normally without the drug.

Quote from: Paul on June 30, 2008, 08:30:45 PM

I was recently prescribed oxycodone (popularly known as OxyContin) for my wisdom teeth.
Did I get addicted? No. Did it make me feel great? Yeah.

That probably best answers your question in your thread title.

Heroin is highly addictive....talk to a few addicts and you will find out.  Also very hard to kick, methadone isn't even a highly successful treatment method.  Suboxone is being used more successfully today.  For that matter alcohol itself is one of the few substances that can lead to lethal withdrawal symptoms.  Yes, people do die from alcohol withdrawal. 

The fact is, all of these drugs do have reasonable medicinal purposes, it is our own human nature that brings us to overindulgence, addiction, and its results.  That isn't God's fault.  Water can kill, but we would not be able to live without it.  Same of Oxygen. 

Quote from: Reverend G on July 02, 2008, 02:27:06 AM
The fact is, all of these drugs do have reasonable medicinal purposes, it is our own human nature that brings us to overindulgence, addiction, and its results.  That isn't God's fault.  Water can kill, but we would not be able to live without it.  Same of Oxygen. 

Yes, in fact many, if not most synthetic medicines were/are derived or at least inspired by plants.  IMO, it's the abuse that's mainly a problem, and that often occurs when we instead need to be filling the emotional and spiritual holes in us with God.

Paul, you quoted I Timothy 4:10 earlier (For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is specially the Saviour of those that believe.) and also said earlier you were "for UR"; yet above you just said you don't believe in God.  Would you care to elaborate?  Thanks, James.

I believe it's what the Bible teaches, but I don't believe in the Bible.  :icon_flower:

I don't believe in the bogey man, but I find it hard not to believe in the Bible.  There are millions (billions?) of them in print, so it is a pretty sure thing that the Bible exists.

Actually, heroin, morphine, alcohol, any drug.....can be addictive without continued usage.  It all depends on the particular person's susceptibility to addiction.

Also, there is a sac that forms at the base of the brain, that is found only in long term users of morphine based (i.e. heroin) substances and alcohol.  This is a clear sign of change to the brain, if not clearly considered brain damage.

Quote from: Reverend G on July 04, 2008, 01:31:41 AMAlso, there is a sac that forms at the base of the brain, that is found only in long term users of morphine based (i.e. heroin) substances and alcohol.  This is a clear sign of change to the brain, if not clearly considered brain damage.

Don't believe everything you hear.

Even coffee can be addictive, caffiene is a drug, ask me I've drank it for over 60 years, it is the morning that I crave a cup, however though I can fore go a morning cup of coffee I do feel out of sorts until I get a cup, if something comes up that is of urgent importance then whatever that may be comes first, I set my coffee aside for anything that may need my time that I would spend having a coffee,
but then I do that with food too, if something needs done that can't wait then my eating can just wait until the more important thing at the time is done.


I enjoy a good flavored cup of coffee, do I consider it to be sorcery? no I do not, if however I used it as a form of religious ritual worship in my POV that may boarder on sorcery or be sorcery.

Peace,
Fire Walker

So, why did God create these enchanted substances if he doesn't want us to practice sorcery with them?

(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/467/22676up6.jpg)

Quote from: Paul on July 07, 2008, 04:07:34 AM
So, why did God create these enchanted substances if he doesn't want us to practice sorcery with them?

(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/467/22676up6.jpg)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Paul.

In my first reply there was my answer to this question, why did God make coffee or any other drug if it served no purpose?  I enjoy coffee for flavor and the lift it gives me in the morning to waking up from a nights sleep.
I can't be a hypoctite and preach that using drugs is a sin when I drink coffee because caffiene is a drug. If the drug is serving a helpful purpose to the individual that outwieghs the negative side effects then surely God intended them for our use.

Even food can be harmful if people eat too much all the time, (too much can very from one person to the next) but not eating at all can be just as harmful.

Genisis 1:29 and 9:3 in both these verses we can see that God made EVERY seed bearing herb to be meat for us. However just as I have pointed out about food,

Folks that say using any drugs at all for any purpose is sorcery are not understanding that sorcery can be done without using any drugs at all.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Quote from: Paul on July 07, 2008, 04:07:34 AM
So, why did God create these enchanted substances if he doesn't want us to practice sorcery with them?

That question teeters on "why did God create so many beautiful women if He didn't want 'em raped?"  God can create stuff that mankind still doesn't know the appropriate usage and their right relation to.  Incidentally, though there are brain receptors that specifically respond to weed, it's not a good reaction.  It's been linked to premature aging, some types of skin and other forms of cancer, memory loss, having children with Downs Syndrome (sp?), impotence, hair loss, premature ejaculation, loss of eye sight, glacoma (sp?), blood sugar problems, sudden infant death, impaired judgment, eye focusing problems, thinning of the skin, hemophilia, lowering of the immune system, premature exhaustion of the adrenals, nerve damage (ever heard it's good for backpain and cancer patients?), and various other issues according to various journals that I used to peak in when I worked at the library of a graduate medical school by where I live. 

If I cared to prove that that's the medical research on it, I could probably still get my hands on those old articles and a photo copier, but I don't care to prove the point.  I'm thinking Jama's one of the periodicals (Journal of the American Medical Association), but I could be wrong about that.  I'd recognize the particular issues if I saw them again.  I smoked weed a few times in my early 20s before I had that job.  And then during the time that I worked there, I read soooo many horrible articles out of Mayo Clinic and various other leading research institutes and hospitals that I completely swore off of it.  I won't touch it again 'cause it's one of those things that's deceptively nice, like a big ol' bowl of Fruit Loops where between the food colorings and the sugar it winds up being more mental problems and other types of physical problems than it's worth.  I'm not going to say that weed, and particularly hydro weed, aren't "nice."  But God evidently didn't make it for human consumption, whether we're talking injesting or smoking it.  Higher percentage of free radical damage than cigarette smoke, and various other issues that make it just too dangerous to fool with.  But it's like homosexuality -- a political agenda, to where it's going to continue to have more than it's fair share of noise.

Hemp, which is a cloth derived from weed when it's not being smoked and eaten, is a very useful kind of cloth.  God evidently gave us hemp for building houses and more durable clothes than for lighting up and altering our consciousness with it.  Everything has it's usage, but none of it is supposed to be for harming the body.  All of these drugs are worse on the body than dairy products and all of the blood sugar and artery problems that those cause.  Yet someone could ask why dairy was created if God didn't intend for us to use it.  How about letting cows, goats, and sheep give their milk to their young?  Not everything that God's made has to go into the mouth of a human being!  It's the logic of a toddler that because God made it, I must stick it in my mouth.  Even medical doctors that don't even believe in any type of animal rights -- many of them will say, if you're going to eat meat, then eat it, but trash the fat; get away from the dairy, etc.

Some drugs do have medical usage.  No drugs have a valid street usage.  Some things have been chemically altered since the flood.  If you have issues with the flood account, things have still been changed through entropy.  Some things existed as the food of animals that no longer exist on this planet, or that exist in very small numbers in more hidden parts of the world.  Marijuana, allowed to grow, is one of those plants that goes absolutely nuts to where I can't help but think of things that grew in previous millenia to the same size or bigger in the animal kingdom.  And without getting into a longwinded physiological description of various things that are no longer in most parts of the world, Marijuana wouldn't have had the same narcotic effect on these animals.  Sometimes I talk way too much, but... The human brain has the receptors that it has in relation to that chemical in order to be able to avoid the really huge predators that would eat Marijuana AND PEOPLE.

All things have their purpose and are beautiful in their time.  God didn't create a chemical factory.  Man through the hardness of his heart and his insatiable desire for economic gain and control of others has synthesized a trillion different chemicals in order to aid his quest for world domination.  Some of these things would make far more efficient bio-fuels than the corn that's currently eating our lunch economically and with the global food supply.  Some of these plants when they're cross-bred with other plants make awesome alternative fuels and things that make fiber optic technology look like stuff from the stone age.  Some of these plants are only going to be discovered in the future to have been the key to this or that problem with farming, with pest control, with getting rid of fungus and mold, etc.  God created a complete world.  These plants properly handled would give us far more fossil fuels than the ground ever will.  Various creationist scientists have already perdy near proven that our oil has come to us from plants and processes related to their decay in the earth, rather than from dinosaur bones.  I've been present when crude oil has been "created" right in front of me.

The question shouldn't be why God created this or that, but rather why are people so stupid?  Poverty could be eliminated within 40 years without harming one person that's currently already rich.  Wealth doesn't need to be redistributed.  People just need brain surgery so that they'll come to realize that God made obsene amounts of everything for everyone.

Actually, regarding pot being good for the body, science has found a partial answer to that part of your statement.  The speculation is that marijuana uses THC to protect itself from pathogens, and humans produce our own cannabinoids, possibly to protect our skin and as protection against pathogens.  At the very least, it can be said that our having receptors for cannabinoids DOES NOT mean we are meant to smoke pot, but rather that we have something in common with marijuana in that our own body produces cannabinoid substances.

I'm not telling you not to do it, just that having cannabinoid receptors does not mean God meant us to do it.

Martin,  about that barrage of health effects you posted about marijuana .
Those journals lie. Marijuana worse than dairy? What a laugh. You think a hippie on a health-concious diet is more unhealthy than some Joe Schmoe who doesn't smoke pot and is on the Standard American diet?

One thing I can say for certain.....after marijuana, I would crave lots of things, including dairy (ice cream).  But after I have ice cream, I don't crave marijuana.

Quote from: Reverend G on July 09, 2008, 05:31:26 PM
One thing I can say for certain.....after marijuana, I would crave lots of things, including dairy (ice cream).  But after I have ice cream, I don't crave marijuana.

Yeah, me too. It raises my my my appetite and my sweet tooth. So, Martin's right. It is worse that dairy; it makes you pig out on ice cream.  :icon_flower:

So, can I assume that you guys are regular pot smokers?  :happy3:

(2Tim. 1:7)  How can we have a sound mind if we are spaced out on marijuana?

What about having the mind of Christ?

Don't mean to criticise any one, just observing.  I have never smoked the stuff, thank the Lord and have no desire to. I pray that  whatsoever you do, you do it all to the glory of God.

CHB

Can't say I have had any illicit drugs in a very long time.  Actually, not even alcohol since October 2005.  But I still like ice cream, and chocolate!!

Quote from: CHB on July 09, 2008, 06:18:24 PM

So, can I assume that you guys are regular pot smokers?  :happy3:

(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2090/lolag5.gif)

On and off. When I start to get a little more order in my life/making some money, I plan to start doing it frequently.

I'm an agnostic member of this board, by the way (the title of this thread is meant to imply your god.)

I must say, my step-daughter had the same point of view that you do, Paul.  (Good name, by the way!)  Of course, I say HAD!  She finally realized something, which no amount of telling her got through, that she was not going to get that stability/income level as long as she was still smoking pot!  A couple of months after she stopped her "occasional use", no longer fearful of a drug test, she was able to apply for the jobs she was qualified for but previously unable to apply for due to drug testing requirements.  Lo and behold she got a decent job, albeit part time.  Only took a month on the job for her to get bumped up to full time. 

Quote from: Paul on July 09, 2008, 08:29:03 PM

Quote from: CHB on July 09, 2008, 06:18:24 PM

So, can I assume that you guys are regular pot smokers?  :happy3:

(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2090/lolag5.gif)

On and off. When I start to get a little more order in my life/making some money, I plan to start doing it frequently.

I'm an agnostic member of this board, by the way (the title of this thread is meant to imply your god.)

Oh yeah, and just so there are no misunderstandings, He is "your" God too, whether you choose to recognize Him or not. 

Yeah, there are negative effects of drug use that don't have to cause permanent brain damage or health risks in order for it to be a much wiser path to not do them.

willieH: Hi brother M... :hithere:

This post may sound as if I am a Marijuana activist, but I am absolutely NOT!

I just believe, as the myths of ET and other RELIGIONS are perpetuated by lack of knowledge and understanding, so is the Marijuana issue...

It is especially condemned by those which have never experienced it...  :thumbdown: and have NOTHING to gain from its continued use by other human beings...

I have several UNRELIGIOUS friends that use marijuana on occasion, and they are NEVER violent, NEVER provoking, NEVER involved in CRIME, ...hard working, decent human beings...  :dontknow:

Quote from: martincisneros on July 07, 2008, 04:57:42 AMHemp, which is a cloth derived from weed when it's not being smoked and eaten, is a very useful kind of cloth.  God evidently gave us hemp for building houses and more durable clothes than for lighting up and altering our consciousness with it.

No offense, ...but I am not so sure I agree with this bro... If this is so, why did GOD bother to put the chemical elements in Hemp which can "alter our conciousness" in the plant? 

The FACT remains that the chemical elements of Marijuana are NOT addictive... You can smoke for YEARS and QUIT... you shall NOT have WITHDRAWAL nor shall you need MEDICAL observation...  :dontknow:

As far as the "research" goes (WHO is doing the research ...and WHAT are the "motives"?)...

It is much like "UFO's"... you can either believe and support "research" of it as true or not...

"Research" often tends to benefit the MONEY MAKERS in the end... and the "money making DRUG industry", just does not profit from Marijuana's existence...

DRUG COMPANIES can put out a "DRUG" on the LEGAL MARKET, which can POSSIBLY help you with say, an asthsma problem, ...but use of it, also POSSIBLY runs the risk of heart attack, high blood pressure, shortness of breath, stomach irritation, sexual disfunction etc, etc... and via DOCTORS, ...peddle it to the public!  LEGALLY!

It is the DRUG industry that I question mostly... Marijuana is a plant which was created by GOD as IT IS and it grows, just like lettuce, from the earth AS IT IS...

I once smoked pot regularly years ago (no longer do)... and to be truthful... I found myself thinking about GOD just about every time I smoked it...

In "my research"... I believe it to be VERY unjustly condemned... that our society and laws, not only allow, ...but PROMPT public use and consumption of "legal" DRUGS which hold devastating potentials to be ADVERTISED and SOLD, ...and then makes smoking or eating marijuana ILLEGAL... is to me... just another example of MAN placing the cart placed before the horse!

QuoteEverything has it's usage, but none of it is supposed to be for harming the body.  All of these drugs are worse on the body than dairy products and all of the blood sugar and artery problems that those cause.  Yet someone could ask why dairy was created if God didn't intend for us to use it.  How about letting cows, goats, and sheep give their milk to their young?  Not everything that God's made has to go into the mouth of a human being!

It's the logic of a toddler that because God made it, I must stick it in my mouth.  Even medical doctors that don't even believe in any type of animal rights -- many of them will say, if you're going to eat meat, then eat it, but trash the fat; get away from the dairy, etc.

I agree with this Martin...  Our modern society is driven more and more toward the worship of MONEY... and it is via such industries as DRUGS (sorcery industry), INSURANCE, BANKING, OIL, ENTERTAINMENT and CREDIT (usury industries), that are driving HUMANITY to its common UNGODLY END...

Those who charge unfair and inflated MONETARY compensation for their "help" are those which PROMPT Humanity to the infatuation of GOD's true ADVERSARY:

(Matt 6:24 / Luke 16:13) NO MAN, can serve TWO MASTERS; for either he will hate the one and lvoe the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other, YE CANNOT SERVE, ...GOD... AND, ...MAMMON  Here GOD is noting that MAN either serves YHVH or he serves MONEY... one or the other shall be your MASTER...

(1 Tim 6:10) ...the LOVE of MONEY, is the root of ...ALL... EVIL...   Here, Paul notes that MONEY can be found as the perpertrator of ALL EVIL... GOD is GOOD, ...MONEY influences MAN to serve another MASTER...

QuoteSome drugs do have medical usage.  No drugs have a valid street usage.

What determines "street usage" bro?  The LAW? 

Hey, meth and heroin are both sold on the "street", and neither is any less addictive than CIGARETTES!  Yet, even though CIGARETTES can be traced to HEART DISEASE, various CANCERS, etc... the "LAW" notes them as LEGAL... and categorize this KILLER, as a non-"street drug"...  Recieving VAST amounts of MONEY in the taxation of Cigarette sales...

Please!  :omg:  I GURANTEE that CIGARETTE SMOKING has KILLED at LEAST as many of our brothers and sisters,  as STREET DRUGS have...

This is not to condone the use or sale of METH or HEROIN, or MARIJUANA... but are not the LAW and LAWMAKERS, the determining factor as to what DRUGS are "acceptable", ...and what DRUGS, ...are NOT? 

Of what are considered "STREET DRUGS", and what ...ARE NOT?

I conclude that MEN in general, are on an inescapable WIDE pathway to destruction, and MONEY is that which, as the "pied piper" leads them to that destruction...

Look at TV... In this day, ...it is pretty much DOMINATED by MONEY-ORIENTED "reality" Gameshows in which people are willing to sacrifice their own Physical and mental, and spiritual lives to gain it...

There is a show called "MOMENT of TRUTH"... in which they ask the contestants questions which inevitably shall put in jeopardy, the relationships of Marriage, Parent/child, brother/sister even JOB holdings... by DANGLING some large MONEY prize for the "TRUTH"... :rolleye:

"TRUTH", my A__!   Such opportunities as these are POISONOUS CANDY, dangled before the CHILDREN... and DECEITFULLY include the word "TRUTH" to do so...  :talkangry:

Sorry for getting off on a tangent Brother M... but the MONEY world we live in, just makes me sick anymore...

I was watching "Nightline" last night, and it was about SLAVERY of CHILDREN in Haiti... for as little as $150!   :omg:  :thumbdown:

As JESUS said...  (Luke 8:18) "...when the Son of man cometh, shall He find FAITH on the earth"

IMO, ...We aren't far from completing this sorrowful prediction...  :crywipe:

Again, it bears repeating... I did not mean any offense in this post toward you, I just find that the ILLEGALITY of Marijuana, is blown WAY out of proportion, and lesser more HARMFUL "drugs" are not only allowed, but promoted by the "LAWS" of our "law--makers"...

Hi Willie!!

Well I can't say I agree with you on all your points, fact is I really don't know regarding marijuana legalization.  You make some valid points, though there is more to the issue than just what you mention.  Like I said, I just don't know.

I must say I agree regarding the pharmaceutical industry.  It has been many years since I was a regular pot user, over 25 years anyways.  I am a recovering drunk, though I see no reason to outlaw alcohol just because I break out in handcuffs when I use it.   Actually though, it wasn't so much the lawmakers that outlawed pot, they wrote the laws, but someone else pushed them to do so.  For that, you need to look to a man named William Randolph Hearst and his friends in the logging, chemical, and paper industries.  The real reason marijuana was outlawed was to stop hemp paper from replacing wood based paper.  It was found that hemp paper was as good as wood based paper, and was able to be processed without all of the toxic chemicals that are used in paper mills.  This would have been a tragedy for those who cut trees for paper, those who supplied chemicals to make paper, and the paper mills themselves.  It really was more about money than potheads.

What a strange question -- Why did God make drugs?  What's interesting is that drugs are man made...

What about the Great Physician?

Nice post, willieH. I found your comment about how you did most of your thinking about God while high to be touching.  :bigGrin:

I started this thread because I'm genuinely curious what people who believe in God think about the natural drugs like psilocybin mushrooms that produce such an amazing experience. If anyone's interested, read some online experience reports of mushrooms at the following link, and comment:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Mushrooms.shtml

I think this is an interesting topic, and I don't have all the answers.  A few things I do believe...

1)We are to present our bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God.  If that means abstaining from or moderate use of certain foods, certain activities, etc., then I'm to be willing to be obedient in that regard.

2)We are to be enslaved to nothing.

3)We are not to be under the influence of anything to where our mind is unable to be rational and yielded to the Holy Spirit

4)When Jesus calls, chooses, and begins to regenerate (save) us, the Holy Spirit resides in us and convicts and leads us into what is acceptable to God's will individually in our lives.  "Be not drunk with wine in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit"  Ephesians 5:18.

Basically, i.e., if I don't trust Jesus as my savior and have an intimate, personal relationship with Him, then I'll try to satisfy the desires of my flesh, fill the God-shaped holes in me with all types of things and substances, and search for any reason or logic to excuse and condone my wishes and behavior.  Conversely, when Jesus is the Lord of our life, the Holy Spirit will lead us into a walk, growth, and maturity that is pleasing to our Father.  James.

"LSD and related substances are not drugs in the usual sense, but are part of the sacred substances, which have been used for thousand of years in ritual settings. The classic psychedelics like LSD, Psilocybin and Mescaline are characterized by the fact that they are neither toxic nor addictive. It is my great concern to separate psychedelics from the ongoing debates about drugs, and to highlight the tremendous potential inherent to these substances for self-awareness, as an adjunct in therapy, and for fundamental research into the human mind." –Albert Hofmann, Ph.D.

Drugs are medicines... they are useful in some cases.

Doing shrooms is seriously helping with my insane OCD (which isn't surprising considering it's been proven with a study that psilocybin mushrooms help with OCD: http://www.maps.org/research/psilo/azproto.html)

How you can call LSD a sacred ritual drug is beyond me, seeing as Abby Hoffman synthesized it in 1938.  It is derived from ergot fungus, but is NOT naturally occuring.

While it is true that these (lsd and others you mentioned) are not considered addictive drugs, they do bring on other problems, such as flashbacks, schizophrenia, and other psychoses, besides often inducing severe depression. 

Quote from: Reverend G on July 14, 2008, 01:58:18 AM
How you can call LSD a sacred ritual drug is beyond me, seeing as Abby Hoffman synthesized it in 1938.  It is derived from ergot fungus, but is NOT naturally occuring.

Abbie Hoffman was a hippie activist. It's Albert Hofmann, who died about two months ago at 102.

Quote from: Reverend G on July 14, 2008, 01:58:18 AMNOT naturally occuring

What's your point? It's a misconception that in order for something to be good it has to be natural. It could still be a sacrament. The Bible isn't naturally occuring, but it's God-given, isn't it? The same way God inspired man to write the Bible, he also could've inspired Albert Hofmann to synthesize LSD.

Quote from: Reverend G on July 14, 2008, 01:58:18 AMWhile it is true that these (lsd and others you mentioned) are not considered addictive drugs, they do bring on other problems, such as flashbacks, schizophrenia, and other psychoses, besides often inducing severe depression.

All things that have been grossly exaggerated by the media. "Often inducing sever depression?" C'mon. Most people who trip disocover a spiritual aspect of their personality, as with that mushroom study that made headlines recently (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h0j1xyts9Th2HhPZGqel--WwEJLg)

The majority of people who trip never get any of those symptoms. Being in the right mind state and location can ensure a good trip. Psychedelics amplify our brains; if the wrong things are amplified, a person can freak out. There's more cases of people benefitting from these drugs than freaking out. That was evident in the 60s when LSD was still legal and crowds famous Electric Kool-aid Acid Test. Tons of people on high doses; everything went well.

A minority of soldiers who go to war develop Post Traumatic Stress Disorder form the intense experience (seeing people getting killed; killing; etc.) I remember seeing clips of soldiers with this disorder in school; it's insane.

http://pages.citebite.com/p5n9l8q6alfl

Excerpts from LSD: My Problem Child by Albert Hofmann (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/lsd_my_problem_child/chapter1.shtml):

A peculiar presentiment - the feeling that this substance could possess properties other than those established in the first investigations - induced me, five years after the first synthesis, to produce LSD-25 once again so that a sample could be given to the pharmacological department for further tests. This was quite unusual; experimental substances, as a rule, were definitely stricken from the research program if once found to be lacking in pharmacological interest.

Nevertheless, in the spring of 1943, I repeated the synthesis of LSD-25. As in the first synthesis, this involved the production of only a few centigrams of the compound.

In the final step of the synthesis, during the purification and crystallization of lysergic acid diethylamide in the form of a tartrate (tartaric acid salt), I was interrupted in my work by unusual sensations. The following description of this incident comes from the report that I sent at the time to Professor Stoll:

Last Friday, April 16,1943, I was forced to interrupt my work in the laboratory in the middle of the afternoon and proceed home, being affected by a remarkable restlessness, combined with a slight dizziness. At home I lay down and sank into a not unpleasant intoxicated-like condition, characterized by an extremely stimulated imagination. In a dreamlike state, with eyes closed (I found the daylight to be unpleasantly glaring), I perceived an uninterrupted stream of fantastic pictures, extraordinary shapes with intense, kaleidoscopic play of colors. After some two hours this condition faded away.

This was, altogether, a remarkable experience - both in its sudden onset and its extraordinary course. It seemed to have resulted from some external toxic influence; I surmised a connection with the substance I had been working with at the time, lysergic acid diethylamide tartrate. But this led to another question: how had I managed to absorb this material? Because of the known toxicity of ergot substances, I always maintained meticulously neat work habits. Possibly a bit of the LSD solution had contacted my fingertips during crystallization, and a trace of the substance was absorbed through the skin. If LSD-25 had indeed been the cause of this bizarre experience, then it must be a substance of extraordinary potency. There seemed to be only one way of getting to the bottom of this. I decided on a self-experiment.

–

Here the notes in my laboratory journal cease. I was able to write the last words only with great effort. By now it was already clear to me that LSD had been the cause of the remarkable experience of the previous Friday, for the altered perceptions were of the same type as before, only much more intense. I had to struggle to speak intelligibly. I asked my laboratory assistant, who was informed of the self-experiment, to escort me home. We went by bicycle, no automobile being available because of wartime restrictions on their use. On the way home, my condition began to assume threatening forms. Everything in my field of vision wavered and was distorted as if seen in a curved mirror. I also had the sensation of being unable to move from the spot. Nevertheless, my assistant later told me that we had traveled very rapidly. Finally, we arrived at home safe and sound, and I was just barely capable of asking my companion to summon our family doctor and request milk from the neighbors.

In spite of my delirious, bewildered condition, I had brief periods of clear and effective thinking - and chose milk as a nonspecific antidote for poisoning.

The dizziness and sensation of fainting became so strong at times that I could no longer hold myself erect, and had to lie down on a sofa. My surroundings had now transformed themselves in more terrifying ways. Everything in the room spun around, and the familiar objects and pieces of furniture assumed grotesque, threatening forrns. They were in continuous motion, animated, as if driven by an inner restlessness. The lady next door, whom I scarcely recognized, brought me milk - in the course of the evening I drank more than two liters. She was no longer Mrs. R., but rather a malevolent, insidious witch with a colored mask.

Even worse than these demonic transformations of the outer world, were the alterations that I perceived in myself, in my inner being. Every exertion of my will, every attempt to put an end to the disintegration of the outer world and the dissolution of my ego, seemed to be wasted effort. A demon had invaded me, had taken possession of my body, mind, and soul. I jumped up and screamed, trying to free myself from him, but then sank down again and lay helpless on the sofa. The substance, with which I had wanted to experiment, had vanquished me. It was the demon that scornfully triumphed over my will. I was seized by the dreadful fear of going insane. I was taken to another world, another place, another time. My body seemed to be without sensation, lifeless, strange. Was I dying? Was this the transition? At times I believed myself to be outside my body, and then perceived clearly, as an outside observer, the complete tragedy of my situation. I had not even taken leave of my family (my wife, with our three children had traveled that day to visit her parents, in Lucerne). Would they ever understand that I had not experimented thoughtlessly, irresponsibly, but rather with the utmost caution, an-d that such a result was in no way foreseeable? My fear and despair intensified, not only because a young family should lose its father, but also because I dreaded leaving my chemical research work, which meant so much to me, unfinished in the midst of fruitful, promising development. Another reflection took shape, an idea full of bitter irony: if I was now forced to leave this world prematurely, it was because of this Iysergic acid diethylamide that I myself had brought forth into the world.

By the time the doctor arrived, the climax of my despondent condition had already passed. My laboratory assistant informed him about my selfexperiment, as I myself was not yet able to formulate a coherent sentence. He shook his head in perplexity, after my attempts to describe the mortal danger that threatened my body. He could detect no abnormal symptoms other than extremely dilated pupils. Pulse, blood pressure, breathing were all normal. He saw no reason to prescribe any medication. Instead he conveyed me to my bed and stood watch over me. Slowly I came back from a weird, unfamiliar world to reassuring everyday reality. The horror softened and gave way to a feeling of good fortune and gratitude, the more normal perceptions and thoughts returned, and I became more confident that the danger of insanity was conclusively past.

Now, little by little I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes. Kaleidoscopic, fantastic images surged in on me, alternating, variegated, opening and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves in constant flux. It was particularly remarkable how every acoustic perception, such as the sound of a door handle or a passing automobile, became transformed into optical perceptions. Every sound generated a vividly changing image, with its own consistent form and color.

Late in the evening my wife returned from Lucerne. Someone had informed her by telephone that I was suffering a mysterious breakdown. She had returned home at once, leaving the children behind with her parents. By now, I had recovered myself sufficiently to tell her what had happened.

Exhausted, I then slept, to awake next morning refreshed, with a clear head, though still somewhat tired physically. A sensation of well-being and renewed life flowed through me. Breakfast tasted delicious and gave me extraordinary pleasure. When I later walked out into the garden, in which the sun shone now after a spring rain, everything glistened and sparkled in a fresh light. The world was as if newly created. All my senses vibrated in a condition of highest sensitivity, which persisted for the entire day.

This self-experiment showed that LSD-25 behaved as a psychoactive substance with extraordinary properties and potency. There was to my knowledge no other known substance that evoked such profound psychic effects in such extremely low doses, that caused such dramatic changes in human consciousness and our experience of the inner and outer world.

QuoteEven worse than these demonic transformations of the outer world, were the alterations that I perceived in myself, in my inner being. Every exertion of my will, every attempt to put an end to the disintegration of the outer world and the dissolution of my ego, seemed to be wasted effort. A demon had invaded me, had taken possession of my body, mind, and soul. I jumped up and screamed, trying to free myself from him, but then sank down again and lay helpless on the sofa. The substance, with which I had wanted to experiment, had vanquished me. It was the demon that scornfully triumphed over my will. I was seized by the dreadful fear of going insane. I was taken to another world, another place, another time. My body seemed to be without sensation, lifeless, strange. Was I dying? Was this the transition? At times I believed myself to be outside my body, and then perceived clearly, as an outside observer, the complete tragedy of my situation. I had not even taken leave of my family (my wife, with our three children had traveled that day to visit her parents, in Lucerne).

Oh, great.  I always take every chance available to cavort with demons......NOT.

I wasn't aware that Albert and Abbot were different people, after all Albert tripped too!!  Learning something new is good!!

My point about LSD not being naturally occurring, is that you claim this is a sacramental drug.  So what new religion was established since 1938, actually about 1946 when it's properties became more commonly known?  Obviously for it to be a sacramental drug there must be some religious order using it for its rituals?  So which religion?  Or did you just decide to start a religion and use LSD as your sacramental drug?

As for the effects being "over-stated" by the media, have you really spent time researching this?  Do you know any people who 20 years after they stopped using these drugs, still are plagued with flashbacks?  Have you ever been involved in treatment of people with mental illness related to these substances, or even had time to have meaningful discussions with those who have treated such people?  If you have, then I will consider your statement.  If not, I will rely on the statements of the people I know who DO have flashbacks, and of people I know who have treated or still are treating these people.

I guess my point is just that there's also people who literally never experience any of these symptoms. Statistics show the individuals who experience flashbacks are in the minority. Bad acid could be the main reason for flashbacks and the like.

How do these impurities change the optimum course of action of LSD and the experience it creates? One of the theories is that, because d-LSD-25 is like a key (its outer electron shell has a specific shape), it fits into a number of tiny locks called "receptor sites." These are located somewhere in the brain - nobody is sure where, but one theory suggests that they might be in the brain stem. It is known, however, that these receptor sites interact only with extremely specific molecular configurations.

The various ergot compounds, cycloalkamides of LSD and lumi-LSD plug into the same receptor sites as LSD does. But these compounds evidently don't turn the lock in the smooth, clean manner of LSD. Many of these compounds have effects similar to symptoms of ergot poisoning - the St. Anthony's Fire of the Middle Ages. These symptoms include inflamed joints, headaches, nausea, and hot and cold flashes.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_writings1.shtml

Not to mention witch hunts and burnings.

I find it only slightly odd that you first discount anything the "press" says about hallucinogens, and then point us to your own "press" findings that support your point of view.  Especially given that the report was about 36 people, in controlled conditions, not at all about persons experimenting casually to their own devices.  Hardly an iron-clad proof of your opinion, is it?

We all do have our own biases, and yours are apparent here, as I would assume are my own.  I do wonder, had you taken such great amounts of time and energy and devoted them to something besides your search for recreational drugs, what could you have accomplished for this world.

Quote from: Reverend G on July 14, 2008, 02:37:35 PMWe all do have our own biases, and yours are apparent here, as I would assume are my own.  I do wonder, had you taken such great amounts of time and energy and devoted them to something besides your search for recreational drugs, what could you have accomplished for this world.

...

Welp, no one answered the original question. Why did God make substances that have such amazing effects, if not because he wanted us to use them. They're amazing enough to "fool" native Americans into thinking they're venturing to the spirit world in their 8 hour ceremonies where they trip on psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, or ayahuasca.

Did God want these people to form relationships with demons all the centuries, while everyone in the Old World was reading His book?

There was a thing on naturally-occuring psychedelic drugs on the History channel, recently, and they said when the missionaries tried witnessing about Jesus Christ to the natives, they showed them mushrooms and said we already do that. And apparantly some rumor got spread that magic mushrooms grew whereever Jesus' blood was.

I've read some of the stories on the website you gave us, and it is remarkable how many have deep experiences of God, and even Jesus, under the effects of 'mushrooms.'  But, even so, they have no way to really know what they are taking, the dosage, or predict the effect,  and they also seem to mix it with other drugs.  Some people have horrible experiences.

What I can't figure out is --why would you want to poison yourself that way?

Obviously, you can have these same mystical experiences of God and Jesus without drugs.  I recognized some of their experiences that they had while high but that I've had while sober.

You have to ask yourself--why are we all so devoted to Jesus?  Do you think it is just an intellectual hobby?

I can't answer your question--except to say that I believe our brains are wired for God, (just like they are wired for language,) and sometimes these drugs will trip those wires.  But, you don't need possibly dangerous and harmful drugs to meet God--just patience, faith, and a desire to find the truth.


17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
--Proverbs 8

Glad you read some of the trip reports. Thanks for the comment.

Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2008, 04:54:54 PMWhat I can't figure out is --why would you want to poison yourself that way?

These drugs aren't poisonous.

"LSD and related substances are not drugs in the usual sense, but are part of the sacred substances, which have been used for thousand of years in ritual settings. The classic psychedelics like LSD, Psilocybin and Mescaline are characterized by the fact that they are neither toxic nor addictive. It is my great concern to separate psychedelics from the ongoing debates about drugs, and to highlight the tremendous potential inherent to these substances for self-awareness, as an adjunct in therapy, and for fundamental research into the human mind." –Albert Hofmann, Ph.D.

I think the majority of negative things you hear about these drugs is a combination of propaganda and what I pointed out in this post: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2915.msg30051#msg30051

Also, take note of the fact that the Bad Trips and Train Wrecks and Trip Disasters sections are missing for the peyote trip reports:

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Peyote.shtml

Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2008, 04:54:54 PMObviously, you can have these same mystical experiences of God and Jesus without drugs. I recognized some of their experiences that they had while high but that I've had while sober.

I think it's apples and oranges.

Maybe you should try a psychedelic drug, so you can make a true comparison.

DNA was dicovered on a low dose of LSD (http://www.hallucinogens.com/lsd/francis-crick.html); I'm sure you'd make some amazing discoveries in the Bible on a psychedelic.

Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2008, 04:54:54 PMYou have to ask yourself--why are we all so devoted to Jesus?  Do you think it is just an intellectual hobby?

Man seeks to understand the unknown. Why and how we're here is probably the greatest mystery ever. For whatever reason, you believe the god described in the Bible to be true. If I lived during the time of Jesus, I'd be one of the guys to say "This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."

Quote from: Paul on July 16, 2008, 03:05:10 PM
Welp, no one answered the original question.

I think people have.   The basic thought seems to be that there are good uses for drugs, and mostly medical.

What you want is people to join your campfire for recreational use, to just get high whenever you want because some study says you'll be ok.  Is this the rational thought that drug use has allowed you to achieve?   Wonderful for you ,Knock yourself out.  The realities of life around us tell a different tale.

QuoteDNA was dicovered on a low dose of LSD

Maybe that's why Watson and Crick 'forgot' that Rosalind Franklin discovered the double helix, not themselves.



"After discovering the existence of the A and B forms of DNA, Rosalind Franklin also succeeded in developing an ingenious and laborious method to separate the two forms, providing the first DNA crystals pure enough to yield interpretable diffraction patterns. She then went on to obtain excellent X-ray diffraction patterns of crystalline B-form DNA and, using a combination of crystallographic theory and chemical reasoning, discovered important basic facts about its structure. She discovered that the sugar-phosphate backbone of DNA lies on the outside of the molecule, not the inside as was previously thought. She discovered the helical structure of DNA has two strands, not three as proposed in competing theories. She gave quantitative details about the shape and size of the double helix. The all- important missing piece of the puzzle, that she could not discover from her data, was how the bases paired on the inside of the helix, and thus the secret of heredity itself. That discovery remained for Watson and Crick to make.

After Randall presented Franklin's data and unpublished conclusions at a routine seminar, aspects of her results were informally communicated to Watson and Crick by Maurice Wilkins and Max Perutz, without her or John Randall's knowledge."

"Rosalind Franklin (1920-1958) by David Ardell

Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2008, 04:54:54 PM
I've read some of the stories on the website you gave us, and it is remarkable how many have deep experiences of God, and even Jesus, under the effects of 'mushrooms.' 

And people can make up anything no matter what they are on.   There is a pattern I see and that is that the more emotional the experience the closer to God one must be.

Is this really the truth of experiencing God?

Quote
But, even so, they have no way to really know what they are taking, the dosage, or predict the effect,  and they also seem to mix it with other drugs.  Some people have horrible experiences.

This is the reality of our society.  The tobacco companies used to provide all sorts of "studies" till the reality of life has caused them to not be taken seriously anymore.

Few users are going to benefit our society from recreational drug use.  It a matter of trying to make the exception the rule. 

Quote
What I can't figure out is --why would you want to poison yourself that way?

One thing that mind altering drugs will do is cause someone to think that everythings ok.  And there are people who will use things mildly and not cause themselves or anyone any problems.  The reality of our society is that we do not have a social structure that is adequate enough to allow this pipe dream of drug use to ever manifest itself to the degree all the recreational drug advocates think should be.  A study only factors in the controlled environment and what they look for as an outcome.  Our society is the best study of all.

A study gives more evidence on the effect when used for medical purposes than it does for a user who goes to work everyday and is productive to society.

Quote
Obviously, you can have these same mystical experiences of God and Jesus without drugs.  I recognized some of their experiences that they had while high but that I've had while sober.

People over-emotionalize everything.  Just as someione can emotionalize some great experience with God, someone else can be in depression because they cannot afford to buy SOD for their yard <---(unfortunatly that last part there is a true story, sad, sad)

I'm not saying we cannot have real great experiences with God.  But I believe, at least for me,  these great experiences, remain great and I do not desire the next "fix" from the religion drug.

I think the question has been more than sufficiently answered IF you choose to read the answers.  So why not ask, why does God allow the devil to exist if not for us to worship the devil?  Trying to make your actions justified just isn't working.  No one is condemning, but it looks like the justification you seek is not forthcoming.

Polymerase Chain Reaction

"Would I have invented PCR if I hadn't taken LSD? I seriously doubt it. I could sit on a DNA molecule and watch the polymers go by."

"Back in the 1960s and early '70s I took plenty of LSD. A lot of people were doing that in Berkeley back then. And I found it to be a mind-opening experience. It was certainly much more important than any courses I ever took."

(Kary Mullis, Ph.D)

That's justification?  Hardly.  If she had not found it, and she might have without LSD, (it is easy to justify using, cuz we want to).....someone else would have.  So what is your point exactly?  Obviously all kinds of people invent lots of things, discover lots of things, write wonderful things, and have spiritual experiences WITHOUT LSD.  It sure seems to outnumber the people who have done these things on LSD.  So I would say on average, LSD is more of a hindrance.

Hey, what did the guy tripping on acid still in his moms basement chugging beer and cheetos discover?


That his fingers turned such a pretty orange.

Quote from: Paul on July 17, 2008, 03:54:58 AM
Polymerase Chain Reaction

"Would I have invented PCR if I hadn't taken LSD? I seriously doubt it. I could sit on a DNA molecule and watch the polymers go by."

"Back in the 1960s and early '70s I took plenty of LSD. A lot of people were doing that in Berkeley back then. And I found it to be a mind-opening experience. It was certainly much more important than any courses I ever took."

(Kary Mullis, Ph.D)

LOL!

There were far more scientific discoveries made while a person was not high, which makes this reason to be a fallacy. This person invented PCR and says they doubt they would have not if it had not been for drugs? This person was presupposed with the understanding, knowledge and skills to make the discovery, they just happen to have made it while on LCD.

Next they say it was certainly much more important than any courses they took? Really? Let us put a kid who took no courses who is high on LCD, and a university educated person who took the courses and find out which one can observe, understand and know to make water into free energy. I doubt the one on LCD would have a clue.

It is crazy how smart educated people are not very bright sometimes not to see their reasons are fallacious.

I do not see the closemindedness you imply.  In fact most of the people here understand that there can be possible benefits for them.  Just because it is geared towards medical needs and not the recreational use you promote does not make them close minded.  That is ignored by you by making comments like  "Welp, no one has answered the question"   So you are simply wrong in your statement.

What most are realizing is that a few web links does not change the fact that rehab centers for drug abuse have no shortage of users needing help. There is no shortage of overdose cases comeing into emergency room across the country. 

Certainly, there can be countless reasons that someone ends up on drugs and that someone can always show a stat or a neighbor or brag about their own responsibility when it comes to it, but all that doesn't change anything.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but none of the drugs I took did me or anyone else much good. Of the many drug users I have encountered in the past 30 years, none of them exibited any real quality benefit from using them.  None of them made any ground breaking revelation for the world and almost all of them complained about their status in life in one way or another.

Regaurdless of the reasoning that I had a bad home life or that I had low self esteem or countless other reasons someone can say that caused the addiction, the fact remains is that drugs are most often turned to when trying to self medicate ourselves out of misery.

The weblinks, a handful of testamonies about their great life on drugs does not change the realities of life.  The closeminded person is the one who uses drugs themselves and continually looks for reasoning to ignore many realities of a problem that is prevalent in our country. 

You guys seem to be forgetting that these drugs have profound effects beyond "medical usage."

http://www.tripzine.com/listing.php?smlid=337

Some people think I am delusional or psychotic. I enter into to a psychedelic trance ever so often, and sometimes I can induce it myself purposely. I do not need drugs to enter this state of mind, and I do see visions and other things which have no explanation. In this state, I receive several eurekas and understanding of concepts I would have not understood previous. I have seen future events, and they have come to pass. I have seen spirits and discerned them for what they were and validated by other testimony about them. That is probably why I know one doesn't need drugs to go into a psychedelic state of mind, and expand their perceptions beyond the flesh.

QuoteRegaurdless of the reasoning that I had a bad home life or that I had low self esteem or countless other reasons someone can say that caused the addiction, the fact remains is that drugs are most often turned to when trying to self medicate ourselves out of misery.

The weblinks, a handful of testamonies about their great life on drugs does not change the realities of life.  The closeminded person is the one who uses drugs themselves and continually looks for reasoning to ignore many realities of a problem that is prevalent in our country.

You got it!  :thumbsup:

Hmm, rehab centers, billions treated, with limited success, versus pages with tens of "it's the best thing ever" testimonies?  Which one is more credible?  People will believe the one they want to believe.  That is why we have rehab centers!!!  It's funny too, that social status does not stop one from using or becoming an addict, or losing it all through addiction/abuse. 

Good post Fire Walker! :thumbsup:

Quote from: StainedGlass on July 21, 2008, 09:05:01 PM
Good post Fire Walker! :thumbsup:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thanks SG,

I appreciate those words.

Paul, sorry you see no answers to your question in all the responces on your thread here.

Ponder these verses and consider the in and the out and all sides of the messages within them:

Mathew 15: 11  it's not that which goes into
the mouth that defiles a man but that which comes out of the mouth that defiles.

All things are lawful for us but not all things edify, all things are lawful for us but not all things are helpful.

At one time tomatoes were considered to be poisonous, the tomatoe is in the nightshade family, the same plant family that belladona is found, the flowering morning glory is in this family of plants.

It has been found that in slight amounts
arsnec can be benificial to the health where in larger quanities is deadly poisonous. The safe level for one person may be too much for another person. trace amounts of arsnec is found in many foods we eat.

Most people can eat peanuts and enjoy them, also a source of protien, but peanuts are highly poisonous to some people.

Many spices that are commonly used for flaver in cooking and salad dishes are drugs mild  to a little stronger, if taken in larger doses can be as overpowering as any other drug.

The oxygen that we need to breathe can cause lite headedness and a sense of wieghtlessnes, too much or too little either way, if you take five or six fast deep breathes then hold your breathe about five seconds  you can see what I am talking about.

Doctors used to us Ether to put people out   
before sergery, I had my tonsils removed at about 6 years old, I had some very vivid dreams about spiritual things while out on ether, but I would not want to sniff ether to get high, for one it smells nasty when concentrated under the nostrils and for two
if not administered in a measured dosage
can put one to sleep and not wake up again.

God made all things for a purpose that can be used or abused by man, what generaly brings useful benifit for most people can be harmful to a few people.

We used to eat truffle mushrooms when I was a youngster, my folks picked them washed them, rolled them in flower, salt and peppered them and then fried them, they tasted just like eating meat. However I wouldn't want to pick because it would be just my luck to get some deadly poisonous
toadstool that can kill within a few minutes
I leave the picking to those who know what ones are good for food.

Fire Walker 

I don't know about about other drugs but morphine is only addictive when taken the wrong dosage.
So if used as a painkiller you should take exactly enough and not more.

It's medically proven that a glass red wine a day is good for your health.
Needless to say that 3 bottles a day doesn't make you extra healty.

:laughing7:Why did God create water if you can drown in it...:laughing7:

God didn't make drugs...man did :icon_flower:

to call hemp/pot a drug would be an insult to some people...who use it as a "herb"...the same goes for magic mushrooms...these two have been used for centuries by all "medicine men" to cure and help alleviate pain, stomach illnesses, diaorea, cure stress etc etc...

personally I've seen more people addicted to man-made and legal drugs than to the herbs God made...alcohol, tobacco, prozac and all the other "mother's little helpers" you can buy over the counter...even diet pills

we just have to look at the "fruits" of the above...I've never met an angry pot smoker...but I've seen users of alcohol wipe out their own families as well as their neighbours

I also bet some of the people condemning other people of using drugs are obese (macD's is their drug)...are addicted to porn (their drug)...or are evangical christians following mad men such as Pat Robertson or subsribe to TBN (templar broadcasting network) and advocate the bombing of Iran...North Korea and/or country which does not conform to the "american dream"...make your pick

all those who condemn hemp (because you can smoke it)...should call for the grounding of all space shuttles...for they have hemp seals built into them...or should condemn the builders of the Mayflower for using hemp sails

if one condemns hemp (because it can make you high)...why not condemn diet pills (thins)...paint thinners....glue...metholated spirits...gas (petrol)...hey...even alcohol?
the above things are much more harmful than smoking a joint

one of the previous posters mentioned that it was the logging companies who got hemp banned...why?
because the logging companies owns the forests and it takes 20 years to grow a tree to supply the same fibre as a field of hemp can supply in 6 months! so God forbid...do NOT let the common folk get a hold on hemp production...it might just solve most of our needs!

Nice post.

So, lemme ask you guys a question. Let's say you were on vacation somewhere and you happened to come across a mushroom or peyote ceremony, and you were curious what it would be like to trip. Would it be against God to engage in the experience?

It would be against common sense.

Why put something in your mouth when you can't predict the outcome and the worst case scenario is madness or death?

You can't overdose on shrooms or peyote. Anti-drug organizations won't even say you can.

They don't make you go insane, either. Why do you insist on believing these false assumptions and urban legends?

It's because you just can't believe that the mechanism of action of these drugs is positive. You view the experience like it's huffing paint thinner.

You can't?  Why is everyone getting violently ill in those stories and throwing up?  Some go into the hospital.

I tried morphine the other day.  Food poisoning, a night of gagging, total dehydration and terrible cramping.  Emergency put me on intravenous fluids and morphine.

So I got to try it.  It didn't make the pain go away, it just put it in another room where I didn't care about it anymore.  And, I was finally able to sleep.

So I thank God he has given us such a miracle drug to handle what  is otherwise intolerable pain.  But I have no interest in going on it--for fun!  It wasn't really fun, it just stopped the pain from bothering me.

Quote from: Molly on July 23, 2008, 01:30:23 AM
You can't?

No.

Quote from: Molly on July 23, 2008, 01:30:23 AM
Why is everyone getting violently ill in those stories and throwing up?

You're exagerating when you say everyone. These substance have mild toxic properties, nothing serious. They're not neurotoxic. My low doses have never given me a hint of nausea.

Quoteone of the previous posters mentioned that it was the logging companies who got hemp banned...why?
because the logging companies owns the forests and it takes 20 years to grow a tree to supply the same fibre as a field of hemp can supply in 6 months! so God forbid...do NOT let the common folk get a hold on hemp production...it might just solve most of our needs!

Yep. I work for a paper company, and I know it is true. I always wondered why we don't use grass for paper pulps like they do in Asia, grass can grow quickly and the supply never stops.

Hemp is actually a quite useful substance, though I would not smoke it (anymore).  Also, the strains cultivated for drug use are not exactly identical to those that were grown for rope, cloth, paper, etc.  They have been hybridized to increase the THC levels.

Alcohol is not a man-made drug either.  If you watch birds or animals around fruit trees, you will find they do eat old fruit off of the ground, it gets them drunk.  Alcohol!

I won't tell anyone NOT to use, but to think that spirituality is based on drug use....nah!  There are dangers affiliated with any drug usage, I will no longer "play with fire" regarding them.