Tentmaker Forum

I find these stories deeply troubling.  Our nation is fallen because of greed. 
http://www.namesofthedead.com/

  I read the stories,Anne. I could easily add several 'names' to it,myself. I had a heart 'attack' last spring and didn't go to hospital coz of cost, survived though, found out what it was
at my regular check-up

   No doubt this world is really  'sick'. It's so sad,all the suffering.

   But take heart, and know, at the moment of their 'passing over' they are completely healed free of charge, and needn't ever have to worry about any need or provision for their lives,ever. For Father is a great provider...and He  will set things
ARIGHT, Eternally. Til then, the whole creation groans

                                                Sheila

 :cloud9: I had one too Sheila, when I was only 32, from the extreme stress I was under. The Lord spoke to me calmly and said, "You know you can rebuke this off you."

I said, "I know Lord, but if it's all the same to You, I'm so tired of all this and I'd rather go home."

The pain finally let up as I laid back preparing to die, and I did not go anywhere and told no one. Four days later, I went to a friend's bible study, and a prophet friend from Ohio walked thru the door and came straight to me and said the Lord said to pray for the healing of your heart.

A few weeks later He told me to go to a Benny Hinn crusade. Nearly as soon as I got there, before it even started, I felt like a heavenly fireball hit me in the chest and it knocked me backwards in my seat. I could barely move under the anointing of it for 20 minutes. He finished healing me.

God is able and He is no respecter of persons. I pray that He will finish the good work He has started in you, including restoration of your body, which is HIS body.  :girlheart:

Sheila,

Thank you for your comforting words.  I know what you say is true.   I see America as being a lot like the Roman empire, crumbling from within.   America's biggest export product is weapons and we have a military industrial complex that feeds our economy along with a very sick pharmaceutical industry.  D.C. is like a whore house.  That is just the condition of things.  Eventually the whole thing will completely fall.   I do not believe anyone can stop it from falling either because the whole world lies in wickedness and the Lord must judge.   Even death itself has a purpose.

The answer to my question is we ALL DIE.

Thanks for your comments, everybody.  - Anne

We all die?  That's the answer?

No, the answer is this--

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


And the sooner we figure it out, the better.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."


--Samuel Adams, Christian Founding Father, 1776

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 01, 2009, 09:34:36 PMOkay, Molly.  Go raise the dead.

Bring them to me.

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 01, 2009, 09:34:36 PM
Have you forgotten it is appointed once for man to die?

I like Molly's growing boldness of faith in our Lord Jesus and growing clarity about Death being an enemy to be subjected to the Name. Our discipleship of the nations isn't to be a discipleship to awaiting their time to bow the knee to the last Enemy, but to life and that more abundantly, or as the Amplified Bible amplifies "to the full, until it overflows." When heaven is your throne and the earth your footstool in Christ, Death is just a punk to pick on every chance you get :Sparkletooth:

The death that we die is to sin according to Romans chapters 6 and 7 so that we'd belong to Another. That's the death that's appointed to every man.  These bodies don't need to die.

I forgot to add when I first posted this post that Hebrews 9:27 was talking about the figurative death of the High Priest that as it was appointed for him to figuratively die for the sins of the people, i.e. "appointed once to die," so also Christ died once for the sins of the people.  Wasn't saying everybody had to die.  Was saying everybody died thru their High Priest.  Contextually it was talking about the Day of Atonement and making a case for the Blood of Christ having been shed and making an argument for Him as our High Priest after the order of Melchezedec.  Wasn't saying ANYTHING about ANY OF US needing to die.  That appointment was met 2000 years ago and Christ Jesus kept it according to the rules and in His raising from the dead our walking free from death was secured.  Otherwise, why bring up Enoch two chapters later as having had an inferior faith to ours that Lord Jesus has authored and is developing, unless the point is that we can now walk away from death and the grave and say no to it by the billions, in proportion to our discipleship to the Written Word?

You guys.... are you expecting to never physically die?

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old?

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die?

There are reasons why death is no longer an enemy... but it doesn't have to do with "not" physically dying. It has to do with faith.

Are you all saying that something is going to happen between now and the time your body would (normally) have succumbed to physical death that will make you not HAVE to physically die, such as "the second coming" or (fill in the blank with your answer).

Or are you saying that there are people physically alive today that are over 200 years old?

How do you explain the deaths that are happening right now??

I know someone who believes similar to what you are guys are talking about, and she went through a great deal of pain because she feels she did something WRONG. She didn't have enough faith and her loved one died anyway. I think that's really sad.

I think you guys are possibly taking "death is the last enemy" and maybe seeing it wrong?

Please explain, guys.

Quote from: sparrow on November 02, 2009, 07:34:28 PM
You guys.... are you expecting to never physically die?

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old?

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die?

There are reasons why death is no longer an enemy... but it doesn't have to do with "not" physically dying. It has to do with faith.

Are you all saying that something is going to happen between now and the time your body would (normally) have succumbed to physical death that will make you not HAVE to physically die, such as "the second coming" or (fill in the blank with your answer).

Or are you saying that there are people physically alive today that are over 200 years old?

How do you explain the deaths that are happening right now??

I know someone who believes similar to what you are guys are talking about, and she went through a great deal of pain because she feels she did something WRONG. She didn't have enough faith and her loved one died anyway. I think that's really sad.

I think you guys are possibly taking "death is the last enemy" and maybe seeing it wrong?

Please explain, guys.

SPARROW, I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED THIS QUESTION!  I REALLY AM.  JESUS SAID TO FOLLOW HIM.  OUR BAPTISM IS INTO HIS DEATH.   SO I DON'T GET IT WHEN BELIEVERS SAY WE SHOULD ACT AS IF WE ARE TO THINK WE WILL NOT DIE NATURALLY.   I'M SHOUTING BECAUSE I'M HAPPY YOU BROUGHT THIS UP.  I WILL BE BACK WITH SOME SCRIPTURES  A.S.A.P. 

Hbr 9:26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 


Hbr 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 


Hbr 9:28   So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

within its context , when is JUDGMENT?

do we all DIE ,then await Judgment?


or IS NOW Judgment upon the THE HOUSE of GOD? as  NOW is THE DAY of SALVATION...

 :cloud9: Amen to the Death-fighters, I say.  :thumbsup: Blessings...

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

I am not going to argue the issue of mortality....I just think it is troubling when a moderator flames the board (I'm talking to you Martin) to suggests that those who believe mortal death is part of the process is akin to "bowing their knee to the last Enemy."

While victory over death is ours even if we should "sleep in Jesus," and death is not a sin (unless it is defying something contrary God has made known to you,) there seems no doubt Paul (Phillipians 3:7-21) was making the transformation of his body, attaining to the out resurrection out from the dead by any means possible, as the one thing he was doing.  This race is against death.  We are to pursue geting to the finish (mature, complete) line before death finishes us.  It is a way in God in us already.  I've had foretastes of it, finding myself in God as my embodiment as my flesh usually has been.  It is only a matter of maturing and being possessed (harpazo-ed) by God as His own.  This is something a generation of Overcomers will come into.  That is what will bring about a change in all the earth, because all mankind will be subject to a higher lifeform, the next phase of what humans evolve into that has begun to be manifested in Jesus.

Hi guys...

Sorry... but can you guys (anyone) just answer my questions as I've stated them?
(some of them are clear cut yes or no questions, etc.)

thanks guys,
sparrow

Quote from: reFORMer on November 03, 2009, 08:03:09 AM
While victory over death is ours even if we should "sleep in Jesus,"

:thumbsup:

Quote from: reFORMer on November 03, 2009, 08:03:09 AM
there seems no doubt Paul (Phillipians 3:7-21) was making the transformation of his body, attaining to the out resurrection out from the dead by any means possible, as the one thing he was doing.  This race is against death. 

  :scratchhead: Not that I haven't been wrong about plenty before - but I thought by Paul referencing things like "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", and "for me to live is Christ, for me to die is gain" meant he was considering the death of his mortal body to be an opportunity to be "face to face with Christ His Savior", and a thing he actually looked forward to.  Yet knowing he had a job to do and a purpose to serve as long as God kept his old fleshly tent alive.   Hey, if God wants me to live a thousand years, I ain't sayin' no.   :bigGrin:  He certainly knows what's best, and how to make me just what He wants me to be.  This is a new doctrine for me though, that I hadn't even heard of or considered until a few weeks ago.  Pardon me if I play the "Berean" role a bit.   :HeartThrob:

By His grace, James.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 03, 2009, 08:03:09 AM
While victory over death is ours even if we should "sleep in Jesus," and death is not a sin (unless it is defying something contrary God has made known to you,) there seems no doubt Paul (Phillipians 3:7-21) was making the transformation of his body, attaining to the out resurrection out from the dead by any means possible, as the one thing he was doing.  This race is against death.  We are to pursue geting to the finish (mature, complete) line before death finishes us.  It is a way in God in us already.  I've had foretastes of it, finding myself in God as my embodiment as my flesh usually has been.  It is only a matter of maturing and being possessed (harpazo-ed) by God as His own.  This is something a generation of Overcomers will come into.  That is what will bring about a change in all the earth, because all mankind will be subject to a higher lifeform, the next phase of what humans evolve into that has begun to be manifested in Jesus.

:cloud9: Amen........death is not a sin as you said above, but it IS a thief because it robs Him of a body to manifest in. And the last enemy to be overcome is death, and death is not overcome by dying, it is overcome by dying to self and NOT dying.

Reason it out; if the wages of sin is death and if you are swallowed up in the sinLESSness of Christ, how then do you die? The Israelites did not have to die to gain their inheritance, and neither do we.

The 7th day was no part darkness; not because there was no darkness, but because it had been swallowed up of life just like the mercy seat covered the death contained in the tablets of the law that ministered death when the mercy seat was removed as being their covering. Blessings....

The earnest we received was a down payment, just like you put a down payment on a house you intend to come back and INHABIT fully. We have been dying because of lack of knowledge of the Word that was from the foundation.   

So how are you guys going to not physically die?
What are those who DO physically die... lacking, in your eyes?
I'm just trying to get to the basics of what you all are saying...
Thanks..

Quote from: sparrow on November 03, 2009, 08:14:38 AM
Hi guys...

Sorry... but can you guys (anyone) just answer my questions as I've stated them?
(some of them are clear cut yes or no questions, etc.)

thanks guys,
sparrow

Gonna be a long wait judging a recent thread where jabcat asked the same. :sigh:

Excellent scriptural points, Jabcat.   There is an earthly body and a spiritual body. 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor. 5:1

See basically the entire book of 1Corinthians, particulary chapter 15.  It is all about the death of the body.

_________________________________________________________________________

Also, good to read: Hebrews chapter 4 and 5

_________________________________________________________________________

I began to quote a bunch of scriptures, but I know we all have our own bibles.    I cannot find anywhere in the scriptures that promises our earthly bodies will never die.  But there is plenty of promise that we are awaiting the redemption of our body (in a new body, not natural, not made of flesh and blood, not subject to death).  Jesus was obedient even unto death in order to bring many sons to glory.  He did not shrink from death.   He embraced/accepted it, with suffering, patience, and faith in his Father.  Was he not the pattern we are to follow?  I'm not saying seek death.  I don't think Jesus sought death.  But neither did he shrink from it in fear and unbelief.   Being able to face death is of paramount importance to me in my Christian faith.  And not only face my own death, but also to not be shaken (to the point of losing faith) by the death of my loved ones).  If I can overcome those things through Christ in this world, overcome the fear of death and the fear of dying and the fear of losing my beloved brothers and sisters to death, that is a major part of having overcome the world (IMO).  I suppose that is why I have a great distaste for the health and wealth gospel - because it is not honest IMO.

Thanks Anne.  I don't want to be a total knucklehead if God's desiring to show me something new and different.  On the other hand, I need to be able to go to the written Word and have it check out (with prayer and Spirit revelation).  God's will be done.  James.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
--1Cor 15


"sleep"

G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.



Philippians 3
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even  to subject all things to himself.

43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

--1 Cor 15



4When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

--Col 3

7so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

--1 Peter 1:7



Called to Be Holy
13Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and  being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

---1 Peter 1:13



Children of God
28And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

--1John 2:28



2 Corinthians 3:18
And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.


1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [ by God].

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.




2Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

--1 John 3



Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 03, 2009, 11:18:56 AM
Excellent scriptural points, Jabcat.   There is an earthly body and a spiritual body. 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor. 5:1

See basically the entire book of 1Corinthians, particulary chapter 15.  It is all about the death of the body.

_________________________________________________________________________

Also, good to read: Hebrews chapter 4 and 5

_________________________________________________________________________

I began to quote a bunch of scriptures, but I know we all have our own bibles.    I cannot find anywhere in the scriptures that promises our earthly bodies will never die.  But there is plenty of promise that we are awaiting the redemption of our body (in a new body, not natural, not made of flesh and blood, not subject to death).  Jesus was obedient even unto death in order to bring many sons to glory.  He did not shrink from death.   He embraced/accepted it, with suffering, patience, and faith in his Father.  Was he not the pattern we are to follow?  I'm not saying seek death.  I don't think Jesus sought death.  But neither did he shrink from it in fear and unbelief.   Being able to face death is of paramount importance to me in my Christian faith.  And not only face my own death, but also to not be shaken (to the point of losing faith) by the death of my loved ones).  If I can overcome those things through Christ in this world, overcome the fear of death and the fear of dying and the fear of losing my beloved brothers and sisters to death, that is a major part of having overcome the world (IMO).  I suppose that is why I have a great distaste for the health and wealth gospel - because it is not honest IMO.

Anne... these are exactly my thoughts as well. Especially the bolded. Will come back later and share more. But FAITH in the UNSEEN, Strong faith when dealing with death, either your own or one of your loved ones... there is a lot of the power of God that comes into play when dealing with these things. God does a lot of work in people who are grieving. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.  To not grieve, is to miss out on profound works in our heart, from our Father. I know this firsthand. Up close and personal.

Do not fear, Jesus overcame the world.
And so shall we, though Him.

but we MUST walk THROUGH this valley of the shadow of death.
NOT around it.

Well, I have much to share on this topic... but will see where the conversation goes..
Peace.

Quote
Anne... these are exactly my thoughts as well. Especially the bolded. Will come back later and share more. But FAITH in the UNSEEN, Strong faith when dealing with death, either your own or one of your loved ones... there is a lot of the power of God that comes into play when dealing with these things. God does a lot of work in people who are grieving. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.  To not grieve, is to miss out on profound works in our heart, from our Father. I know this firsthand. Up close and personal.

Do not fear, Jesus overcame the world.
And so shall we, though Him.

but we MUST walk THROUGH this valley of the shadow of death.
NOT around it.

Well, I have much to share on this topic... but will see where the conversation goes..
Peace.

Sparrow,
I think this discussion about death deserves a new thread, separated from the political health-care reform discussion.   I will look for you to start it, then if you don't want to, I'll start a new thread later.   No one knows when death is coming.  It is NOT in our control.  To pretend that it is seems very arrogant to me.  Isn't there even a scripture that tells us not to boast about tomorrow?

Thanks -
Anne

Quote from: sparrowbut we MUST walk THROUGH this valley of the shadow of death.
NOT around it.

I don't know that it says we must walk through it, but if we do, there is nothing to fear.  Note:  it is the shadow of death, a shadow cast over a narrow gorge [valley], that the psalmist speaks about, not death itself, --ever hear of being afraid of your own shadow?  Why would we be afraid of a shadow?

So where is he walking?  Through a narrow gorge with a shadow cast over it.  It is a place.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;...

--Psalm 23

"valley"

H1516
גּי    גּיא
gay' gay
gah'ee, gah'ee
Probably (by transmutation) from the same root as H1466 (abbreviated); a gorge (from its lofty sides; hence narrow, but not a gully or winter torrent): - valley.


When you walk through a gorge, you are walking in darkness--here the darkness is defined by a shadow that is cast by death.  It's only a shadow, but when in the gorge, it could be frightening.   But, we are not stuck in that narrow place of darkness.

Isaiah 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.

Quote from: martincisneros on November 02, 2009, 02:16:57 PM
The death that we die is to sin according to Romans chapters 6 and 7 so that we'd belong to Another. That's the death that's appointed to every man.  These bodies don't need to die.

Hi martin, I am trying to understand this quote (These bodies don't need to die).
I really don't understand, everybody dies at some point in time.
I am not trying to argue but understand.  :dontknow:

Hi SQ.
That is a question that takes much wisdom, knowledge and understanding to give and receive.
While brother Martin may be fully capable to present it for your understanding, may I suggest some reading that is already available:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm

Thank you Beloved Servant, I will do some reading.
Thank you also for the beautiful music that you post here at Tentmaker.
I really enjoy it.  :cloud9:

You're welcome, and, I am thinking of you!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2009, 04:15:14 AM


Hi SQ.
That is a question that takes much wisdom, knowledge and understanding to give and receive.
While brother Martin may be fully capable to present it for your understanding, may I suggest some reading that is already available:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm

God has always wanted a priesthood. The priesthood is foundational to the outworking of His redemption and central to His plan of the ages. The covenant of God still stands today: "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be A PECULIAR TREASURE UNTO ME ABOVE ALL PEOPLE: for all the earth is Mine: AND YE SHALL BE UNTO ME A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION." Oh, beloved, come, let us now open our hearts wide to Him. Come, and as we gaze upon this glorious ministry and its life-flow to all the families of the earth, let us yield ourselves unto God that He may work His wondrous work in our lives, bringing us into such union with Jesus, the High Priest of our profession, that we become in nature and power His ROYAL.-PRIESTHOOD in the earth! The manifestation of the Sons of God for which all creation is in travail is nothing more nor less than the full manifestation of God's fully developed and empowered body of KING-PRIESTS AFTER THE ORDER OF MELCHISEDEK. Those apprehended unto this ministry are indeed, A PEOPLE FOR A PURPOSE!

--J. Preston Eby




12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

--Heb 7

 :cloud9: Amen.......

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2009, 03:24:31 AM
Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.

Since you two claim to be able to raise the dead, how about raising my mother and father up from the grave.  I'd like to have them over for dinner this weekend, but they are currently unconscious, asleep in their graves, and in fact, you are going to need some serious supernatural power to raise up my mother who was cremated in March.

Thanks!

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 04, 2009, 01:44:37 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2009, 03:24:31 AM
Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.

Since you two claim to be able to raise the dead, how about raising my mother and father up from the grave.  I'd like to have them over for dinner this weekend, but they are currently unconscious, asleep in their graves, and in fact, you are going to need some serious supernatural power to raise up my mother who was cremated in March.

Thanks!

Anne

That wasn't a claim, that's a HOPE of Glory as we learn to identify with Christ.

Ok wait guys. Reading back through this thread again... I am compelled to say the following:

What do people believe? Raising people from the dead? We don't have to die a physical death??

Please, (Taffy, Cardinal, Martin, ) if you wouldn't mind, can you guys answer my questions I posted earlier so I can understand what you are saying?

I think we need to get this stuff out in the open, guys... once and for all.
What do you think?

peace,
sparrow

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 04, 2009, 01:44:37 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2009, 03:24:31 AM
Bring them to me.

Amen Martin.

Since you two claim to be able to raise the dead, how about raising my mother and father up from the grave.  I'd like to have them over for dinner this weekend, but they are currently unconscious, asleep in their graves, and in fact, you are going to need some serious supernatural power to raise up my mother who was cremated in March.

Thanks!

Anne

Lol.  :laughing7:

25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages,

--Rom 16


[7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.]

--1 Cor 2



9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

--2 Tim 1



2 in hope of eternal life, which God,who never lies, promised before the world began.

--Titus 1

Quote
I don't mean any offense by this, and maybe this is just me being slow, but I've noticed that people will often quote passages without any commentary whatsoever, and I don't think I've had one single time where I understood what they were trying to say.

Yes, Gab, I know what you mean.  But I don't have enough spare time to worry about obscure posts.  I just read them, and if they seem meaningless, I move on.

Anne

Quote from: GabI don't mean any offense by this, and maybe this is just me being slow, but I've noticed that people will often quote passages without any commentary whatsoever, and I don't think I've had one single time where I understood what they were trying to say.

I thought it was clear what was being said.  There is a mystery that has been kept secret for long ages.
There is a secret and hidden wisdom which God decreed before the ages began.  It has to do with our glory.

Jesus saved us and called us to a holy calling [Melchizedec priesthood], which calling is based on an endless life.  These promises were given before the world began, and God doesn't lie.



Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.




"endless" [life]

G179
ἀκατάλυτος
akatalutos
ak-at-al'-oo-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G2647; indissoluble, that is, (figuratively) permanent: - endless.

Quote"endless" [life]

G179
ἀκατάλυτος
akatalutos
ak-at-al'-oo-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G2647; indissoluble, that is, (figuratively) permanent: - endless.

Molly,
Just to clarify if you could. Why did you quote this definition, when in Titus 1:2 the word is "aionios" are you deriving that word from a scripture you did not mention in your previous post?

Ok, I got confused. Lol, I thought you were quoting the definition in association with the previous 4 scripures, but I see that you were referencing the Hebrews scripture where the word appears in your most recent post.

The reason I brought that up is that there are different views of "aionios life" than being "endless life" and certainly if the NT writers mean "endless life" they were free to say "akatalutos zoe" consistently rather than "aionios zoe" but they didn't, which I find interesting.

Again I realize there are different views on that controversial word "aionios" but my view on "aionios zoe" as I have seen the compound phrase defined in the scripture does not lend itself necessarily to the concept of akatalutos, whereas the concept of "immortality" does.

In other words, another view of "aionios zoe" being consistent with the promise of the Holy Spirit unto deliverance from sin, can be distinguished from having received instant immortality, which I think is the main contention in this ongoing debate.

But conflating "akatalutos" from Hebrews with "aionios" from Titus does not solve that issue because they can legitimately be viewed as distinguishable concepts.

Quote from: sparrow on November 05, 2009, 05:43:37 AM
Ok wait guys. Reading back through this thread again... I am compelled to say the following:

What do people believe? Raising people from the dead? We don't have to die a physical death??

Please, (Taffy, Cardinal, Martin, ) if you wouldn't mind, can you guys answer my questions I posted earlier so I can understand what you are saying?

I think we need to get this stuff out in the open, guys... once and for all.
What do you think?

peace,
sparrow

  Hi Sparrow ,
great  question   sis !!!

  Jesus spoke  in John  chapters 11 and 12 
on these things , to me it is very symbolic   in meaning 
  because to me we are  '' as dead '' who do not know Jesus Christ or God


    to me the  literal death  of Adam  back into dust  as  he was  formed by God and God told him by the sweat of his  face  he would eat bread  , what was Adam going to eat of after eating  of the tree of knowldge of good and evil    and sweating to  eat bread

   these are symbolic  things to me    not so literal

  its is  knowing  God / Love  through Jesus Christ/  the bread of heaven 

   the dust of adam
  is also the serpents food is death  , dust eaters portion 
that can be  also taken symbolically  , as scattered   thoughts of flesh
   I  do  believe that  this describes what I am trying to say here

  with  all in Adam who  spoke  the good and evil mix together

  this whole chapter  speaks of Gods mercy  for those  after they   go though   hell /death        sort of like being cut off    to me 

   God knows  I want to be claer here
  clarity is not my gift of God , and it is frustrating   to get out in words what your heart wants to share  :sigh: 

Mic 7:17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee. 

   I love the John chapters because  I can see so much glory and beauty in the Lords working though Jesus Christ  His love to help  people is amazing

  23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"


27She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."

  this is one of my most favorite  passages sis !  what a promise huh!

  I hope Taff  or Martin or Card   will come and be more clear with this     

  I just feel that the Lord Jesus is leading us back to God from where we were seperated /as   one dead , like Lazarus  .

   Becasue God is the God of the Living  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on November 05, 2009, 06:45:15 PM

Quote"endless" [life]

G179
ἀκατάλυτος
akatalutos
ak-at-al'-oo-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G2647; indissoluble, that is, (figuratively) permanent: - endless.

Molly,
Just to clarify if you could. Why did you quote this definition, when in Titus 1:2 the word is "aionios" are you deriving that word from a scripture you did not mention in your previous post?

Hi Seth, I was talking about the holy calling of Jesus--the royal priesthood--which is based on
akatalutos life.  That is a very strong word of which there can be no doubt--


one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

--Heb 7:16


People were asking for scripture, so I am trying to provide scripture.  Here are some more on the holy calling--


An Holy Calling" (2 Tim. 1:9)

"The High Calling of God" (Phil. 3:14)


"The Calling of God" (Rom. 11:29)


"Your Calling" (1 Cor. 1:26; Eph. 4:4)

"The Heavenly Calling" (Heb. 3:1)

Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2009, 11:26:22 PM


Hi Seth, I was talking about the holy calling of Jesus--the royal priesthood--which is based on
akatalutos life.  That is a very strong word of which there can be no doubt--


one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.

--Heb 7:16


People were asking for scripture, so I am trying to provide scripture.  Here are some more on the holy calling--


An Holy Calling" (2 Tim. 1:9)

"The High Calling of God" (Phil. 3:14)


"The Calling of God" (Rom. 11:29)


"Your Calling" (1 Cor. 1:26; Eph. 4:4)

"The Heavenly Calling" (Heb. 3:1)

Yes I understood that you were referencing Hebrews per my second post.

Quote from: Molly on November 05, 2009, 06:58:15 AM
25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages,

--Rom 16


[7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.]

--1 Cor 2



9who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

--2 Tim 1



2 in hope of eternal life, which God,who never lies, promised before the world began.

--Titus 1

Timely post Molly — before the world began!

Quote from: rosered on November 05, 2009, 10:46:35 PM
  I hope Taff  or Martin or Card   will come and be more clear with this     

Yes.. Specifically the questions that I have asked.

Thank you for your thoughts, rosered!
Will add them to my ponderings.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 05:17:42 AM
  Hi Sparrow,
Here is a link to many of the questions that you struggle with your walk with the Lord.

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking1.htm

Beloved, I do not struggle with my walk with the Lord at this time.

I simply asked several forum members specific questions.
How am I to understand what THEY mean, if they don't answer my simple questions.

They have not answered. (Which is their right, of course.)
But that doesn't stop me from still wishing the questions would be answered.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 05:47:46 AM

Well dear sister, is why I provided you with a link to a brother that is very adept at answering questions such as yours.
All the brethren are called to provide different aspects of His Being.
Know that, the few brethren on this blog are not yet the all encompassing wisdom you desire.
Please study the scripts and then add what the Spirit has made known to you instead of continuing to ask the same questions.
And then accusing them of ignoring you.
Who's your daddy?

Beloved, I am asking members here on this site, questions.
Why would I go to another site and look for THEIR answers?
Doesn't make sense.

I never said anyone here had "all encompassing wisdom".
Quite unsure of what you are trying to say.

I never accused anyone of anything.


Who's my daddy?
My dad lives in Maryland.
Why do you ask?

delete

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 06:03:52 AM

Because Sorrow, this is just a discussion board, a place of fellowship!
The deeper things may require that you delve beneath the surface.
Perhaps, the Spirit is calling you to search away from here — to Him.

Again you are calling me "Sorrow"?

I'm reporting you to the moderators.
How dare you treat a member in this way?

Yes I do, and I see that you deleted it Zeek.

Read this: www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev95.htm

part 95

but I suggest you start at part 1.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 06:09:45 AM
Yes I do, and I see that you deleted it Zeek.

Read this: www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev95.htm

part 95

but I suggest you start at part 1.

been there, done that.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 06:12:56 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 06, 2009, 06:09:03 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 06:03:52 AM

Because Sorrow, this is just a discussion board, a place of fellowship!
The deeper things may require that you delve beneath the surface.
Perhaps, the Spirit is calling you to search away from here — to Him.

Again you are calling me "Sorrow"?

I'm reporting you to the moderators.
How dare you treat a member in this way?

Geez, I have never been good with the keyboard!

:thumbdown:

Quote from: Zeek on November 06, 2009, 06:15:23 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 06:09:45 AM
Yes I do, and I see that you deleted it Zeek.

Read this: www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev95.htm

part 95

but I suggest you start at part 1.

been there, done that.

Zeek, you have read the first 94 parts of the series???

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 06:22:48 AM

Quote from: Zeek on November 06, 2009, 06:15:23 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2009, 06:09:45 AM
Yes I do, and I see that you deleted it Zeek.

Read this: www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev95.htm

part 95

but I suggest you start at part 1.

been there, done that.

Zeek, you have read the first 94 parts of the series???

all of it

Mod note.  It's not only fine, but encouraged that members ask questions, desiring to understand others' positions.  It is a discussion board, and that's part of discussing.  Baiting others by intentionally and repeatedly referring to them by a wrong and especially insulting username is against forum guidelines.  Inappropriate/unecessary posts have been removed.  Back to the topic, please.

Anne, please see my note right above yours.  It's been addressed. 

edit [response to a since-removed post by another mod]

Quote from: sparrow on November 06, 2009, 05:09:50 AM

Quote from: rosered on November 05, 2009, 10:46:35 PM
  I hope Taff  or Martin or Card   will come and be more clear with this     

Yes.. Specifically the questions that I have asked.

Thank you for your thoughts, rosered!
Will add them to my ponderings.  :HeartThrob:

I did try sis

  many here love and care for you sis , I sure do . you are just precious .

    there  does seem to be some kind of  spirit of division working on this fourm lately
   I pray the Lord will  bring  us all to that unity of faith and peace  that the Holy Spirit  works  within us all
   :HeartThrob:

QuoteOk wait guys. Reading back through this thread again... I am compelled to say the following:

What do people believe? Raising people from the dead? We don't have to die a physical death??

Please, (Taffy, Cardinal, Martin, ) if you wouldn't mind, can you guys answer my questions I posted earlier so I can understand what you are saying? [

Hi sparrow...

No problem raising the Dead Sparrow, happens daily  , those dead figuratively to Christ , tis what in part Rosey was relating to....

These Bodies not need die to LIVE, but these bodies can be dead thou they Breathe...being DEAD is Not KNOWING HIM, the life within and POWER of HIS Resurrection

Christ laying down His life , dying as it was appointing for all men to die Under the first Adam - FOR us. UNto judgment TO LIFE  IN HIM.

Death being swallowed up BY LIFE.


as Card mentioned , Death is Not Dying , but dying to self, being buried into HIS death , raised INTO HIS life in us...

Col 2:12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 


Col 2:13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ. He forgave all our sins. 


Col 2:14 He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ's cross. 


thats how Im reading it...cant speak for M or Card thou ..maybe they can add theirs...
so No these bodies in the flesh no need die to live... :icon_flower:

  Thanks Taffy  :thumbsup:

  :icon_flower: it sure is Not knowing God , as one dead,

   to me as well :HeartThrob:


Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 


Luk 20:38   For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Quote from: rosered on November 06, 2009, 04:35:18 PM


  Thanks Taffy  :thumbsup:

  :icon_flower: it sure is Not knowing God , as one dead,

   to me as well :HeartThrob:


Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 


Luk 20:38   For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Amen Rosey

Its been quite hecticto say the least on the forum of late...some tension for sure...at times there are just not enough ACTIVE Mods availabe when needed,..just the other nite spent 6hrs Moderating JUST one Thread..as posts were flying in from all over as emotions seemed raised...

so sorry for not returning to this Thread Sparrow....but got there eventually :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sparrow on November 02, 2009, 07:34:28 PM
You guys.... are you expecting to never physically die?

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old?

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die?

There are reasons why death is no longer an enemy... but it doesn't have to do with "not" physically dying. It has to do with faith.

Are you all saying that something is going to happen between now and the time your body would (normally) have succumbed to physical death that will make you not HAVE to physically die, such as "the second coming" or (fill in the blank with your answer).

Or are you saying that there are people physically alive today that are over 200 years old?

How do you explain the deaths that are happening right now??

I know someone who believes similar to what you are guys are talking about, and she went through a great deal of pain because she feels she did something WRONG. She didn't have enough faith and her loved one died anyway. I think that's really sad.

I think you guys are possibly taking "death is the last enemy" and maybe seeing it wrong?

Please explain, guys.

Hi Taffy, Thank you so much for your thoughts, though what you are talking about is "spiritual" life and death. Which I completely understand and have no problems with whatsoever.

But some of you have in the past and it appears are in this thread as well talking about actual PHYSICAL death, flesh and blood bodies. This is the very thing that I am talking about. Asking questions to clarify what someone is talking about is CRUCIAL. There is a pretty big difference between talking about raising the "spiritual" dead and raising the "physical, flesh and blood dead".

Can you addresss the questions in bold?
Thank you brother. I do appreciate your trying to clarify for me.  :HeartThrob:

For now at least Sparrow..I ll leave those questions for those who maybe able to answer in greater clarity :icon_flower: to what you seek

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2009, 04:51:16 PM
For now at least Sparrow..I ll leave those questions for those who maybe able to answer in greater clarity :icon_flower: to what you seek

:HeartThrob:

Taffy.. why?

Taffy, the only thing that I am seeking is to clarify what you, Cardinal and Martin are talking about. I like to know what people believe so that I can decipher their writings and understand where they are coming from.

The questions are very, very simple questions and would greatly clear up possible misconceptions.

As far as other people answering... do you see how this doesn't make sense, bro?
How can anyone else answer for you?

I want to know what YOU believe, brother.

Quote from: sparrow on November 06, 2009, 04:58:16 PM

Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2009, 04:51:16 PM
For now at least Sparrow..I ll leave those questions for those who maybe able to answer in greater clarity :icon_flower: to what you seek

:HeartThrob:

Taffy.. why?

Taffy, the only thing that I am seeking is to clarify what you, Cardinal and Martin are talking about. I like to know what people believe so that I can decipher their writings and understand where they are coming from.

The questions are very, very simple questions and would greatly clear up possible misconceptions.

As far as other people answering... do you see how this doesn't make sense, bro?
How can anyone else answer for you?

I want to know what YOU believe, brother.

well Sparrow its quite a relatively New concept to me...,therefore im still digesting certain thoughts....I very rarely speak on anything unless I sence the clarity to do so... :icon_flower:
im not allowing others to speak for me..but allowing themselves to speak only for them :icon_flower:

Ok, fair enough, brother.  :HeartThrob:

I do hope Cardinal and Martin give their thoughts.

O, ye of little faith...lol


March 27, 2009
Can the Human Lifespan Reach 1,000 Years -Some Experts Say "Yes"

Cambridge University geneticist Aubrey de Grey has famously stated, "The first person to live to be 1,000 years old is certainly alive today ...whether they realize it or not, barring accidents and suicide, most people now 40 years or younger can expect to live for centuries."

Perhaps de Gray is way too optimistic, but plenty of others have joined the search for a virtual fountain of youth. In fact, a growing number of scientists, doctors, geneticists and nanotech experts—many with impeccable academic credentials—are insisting that there is no hard reason why ageing can't be dramatically slowed or prevented altogether. Not only is it theoretically possible, they argue, but a scientifically achievable goal that can and should be reached in time to benefit those alive today.

"I am working on immortality," says Michael Rose, a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of California, Irvine, who has achieved breakthrough results extending the lives of fruit flies. "Twenty years ago the idea of postponing aging, let alone reversing it, was weird and off-the-wall. Today there are good reasons for thinking it is fundamentally possible."

Even the US government finds the field sufficiently promising to fund some of the research. Federal funding for "the biology of ageing", excluding work on ageing-specific diseases like heart failure and cancer – has been running at about $2.4 billion a year, according to the National Institute of Ageing, part of the National Institutes of Health.

So far, the most intriguing results have been spawned by the genetics labs of bigger universities, where anti-ageing scientists have found ways to extend live spans of a range of organisms—including mammals. But genetic research is not the only field that may hold the key to eternity.

"There are many, many different components of ageing and we are chipping away at all of them," said Robert Freitas at the Institute for Molecular Manufacturing, a non-profit, nanotech group in Palo Alto, California. "It will take time and, if you put it in terms of the big developments of modern technology, say the telephone, we are still about 10 years off from Alexander Graham Bell shouting to his assistant through that first device. Still, in the near future, say the next two to four decades, the disease of ageing will be cured."

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2009/03/can-humans-live.html

 :cloud9: I heard about this. Once again, the natural body witnesses what God is doing in the Spirit with those that believe. There truly is nothing new under the sun, because of Who is above IT. Blessings...

1000 years. Sounds good to stop overpopulation and wars for resources :sigh:

I thought the number in the verse below in commonly accepted by secular science...
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2009, 09:17:14 PM
1000 years. Sounds good to stop overpopulation and wars for resources :sigh:

I thought the number in the verse below in commonly accepted by secular science...
Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

There is no overpopulation.  There is no limited resources.  There is no global warming.  That's all lies.  Satan's economy is one of scarcity and death.  God's economy is abundance and life.

...for that he is also flesh...



1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities,--


"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
  but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
   you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said,

'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
   as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"

--Heb 10

QuoteThere is no overpopulation.  There is no limited resources.

Then we simply disagree.

QuoteGod's economy is abundance and life.

And you think that article is about God's economy? It's about the exact planet/situation as we in now. Only people live longer.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2009, 09:32:02 PM

QuoteThere is no overpopulation.  There is no limited resources.

Then we simply disagree.

QuoteGod's economy is abundance and life.

And you think that article is about God's economy? It's about the exact planet/situation as we in now. Only people live longer.

We disagree?  I didn't know that.

You believe algore?  Have you seen his house at night?  It looks like 15 showboats lined up on the Mississippi river, ready for business. I don't see him practicing what he is preaching to the rest of us.  He eats meat--but doesn't want us to because cows release gases lol.   His global warming scam is just another way to transfer wealth by taxing the air we breathe.  MIT has now proven that stupid theory a fraud.  Too few resources?  Maybe if five families want to own all the diamonds in the world.  Otherwise, we have resources coming out of our ears.  And, plenty of room on this earth for more babies.

Why can't you see it?  We are so close to total abundance in the physical which, as Cardinal says, does what the head is doing.

Do you really believe that 90 percent of your DNA is junk?

No I don't believe al Gore (perfect last name for than man!)
That's why I didn't quote the part of global warming.

Resources is more than just steel and oil (to name just 2)
But also space and food. I see problems with that in many part of the world.
Living a 1000 years likely also mean women can give birth until the age of 400-500

You wrote yourself we live in satans economy of scarcity ande death. Doesn't he still run the show?

I would also like a reply about the verse I quoted. It's not just my thought but also from God.

Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2009, 09:43:20 PMWhy can't you see it?  We are so close to total abundance in the physical which, as Cardinal says, does what the head is doing.

I can't look in the future but if have to answer I just see war in abundance. Like WW3.

QuoteDo you really believe that 90 percent of your DNA is junk?

No

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2009, 10:06:18 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 06, 2009, 09:43:20 PMWhy can't you see it?  We are so close to total abundance in the physical which, as Cardinal says, does what the head is doing.

I can't look in the future but if have to answer I just see war in abundance. Like WW3.

QuoteDo you really believe that 90 percent of your DNA is junk?

No

Satan wants WW3.  Satan likes to cover up his evil deeds by blowing the place up when he's finished robbing everyone blind.

Don't you think it's really time for us to say NO to that head?  There's more of us than there is of him.

This has been going on for long enough.  It's a spiritual war, a fight for the hearts and minds of men, and all I see around me is people rooting for the wrong side.



Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

QuoteDon't you think it's really time for us to say NO to that head?.

Yes. Should have been said 1000's of wars ago. In that we do not disagree. I know for many here the HS is the newspaper. But I just have a newspaper op paper and ink. And it could just be me but it's full of headlines....

QuoteThere's more of us than there is of him.

But you know very well it's no longer us against him.
About everyone is (forced to be) an enemy. So we are to devided to stand up against 'the head'

QuoteThis has been going on for long enough.  It's a spiritual war, a fight for the hearts and minds of men, and all I see around me is people rooting for the wrong side

True. But if you see people still rooting to the bad side, and perhaps even more as before, do you really feel peace is within grasp?
I think you are very wrong. But I really hope you a very very right.

QuoteResources is more than just steel and oil (to name just 2)
But also space and food. I see problems with that in many part of the world.
Living a 1000 years likely also mean women can give birth until the age of 400-500

We can create food in abundance if we don't allow Satan to patent the seeds and force us to grow corn for fuel instead of drilling our own oil or releasing the electro-magnetic propulsion technology they have hidden for 100 years. If we don't pay all our farmers not to farm or force them into bankruptcy or outright kill them--what nonsense these people create. 

It's a manufactured crisis. You know that.  I thought you were my conspiracy buddy. Don't let me down now. [or maybe that's noname lol]

,

QuoteLiving a 1000 years likely also mean ...

You don't know what it will mean.  God is making a new creation, remember?  He is preparing a body for us, the body of Christ.

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

--Eph 5

QuoteIt's a manufactured crisis. You know that.  I thought you were my conspiracy buddy. Don't let me down now.

I don't. It's just that you think the grip of the elite will soon be no more. I hope so too, but fear not.

QuoteWe can create food in abundance

I'm fully aware that not all countries are as small as mine but here we have a struggle between farming land and land for homes.
As you are very well aware beans don't grow in jars in the super market.....
Yes things are manipulated but that doesn't take away the fact that food needs place, time and good climate to grow. With people living 1000 years a lot of farm land is needed.
Plus if I had a choice I would like food that has grown in more natural way. Ever tasted the different between stawberries that come from the land or a greenhouse? (just one of the many examples)
It's just that I don't think all that high tech super fast growing food isn't a real step forward in taste and health.

QuoteYou don't know what it will mean.  God is making a new creation, remember?

Yes. But we started our chat because an article written by a human. Not by Father, Son or HS.

QuoteIt's just that you think the grip of the elite will soon be no more.

They trade in illusion and lies, and more and more people are NOT falling for it.

The young kids, especially--there is some kind of sea change afoot.

QuoteWith people living 1000 years a lot of farm land is needed.

I've never been to your country, but there's a lot of good farmland in Europe.  And you can just throw the net off the right side of the boat for all the fish you need.  Did you know that quahogs live for 200 years?  I think that's a clue.  Why should they live longer than us?   I suspect we will be eating for pleasure rather than out of need because our bodies will be running on spiritual food--but I would never say something so radical lol.

Ocean quahogs are among the longest lived, slowest growing marine organisms in the world. Ocean quahogs off Southern New England, in the Mid-Atlantic Bight and on Georges Bank can live to at least 200 years.


Plus don't forget the loaves and the fishes.  We will all know how to do that someday, not to mention Elijah's self filling barrel of olive oil.  Now they are saying that olive oil might contain the cure for Alzheimers, but I digress.

QuoteBut we started our chat because an article written by a human.

But maybe God is allowing the human to do it because it is time.  Like one of the scientists said, even 20 years ago, this would still be a pipe dream.  But, now they are taking it seriously

Never heard of quahogs. Googled for a pic and they look similar to what I know.

There is good farmland here. Very good actually. I have no clue how many farmland it takes to feed 1 person.
But it's quite simple to understand if population grows the need for farmland increases but most often the farmland decreases because cities grow and grow.

1000 years or not. I'm already beyound the 40 years or younger range.
Luckily I might add because I don't feel link working to the age of 995 until retirement :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 07, 2009, 12:37:18 AM
Never heard of quahogs. Googled for a pic and they look similar to what I know.

There is good farmland here. Very good actually. I have no clue how many farmland it takes to feed 1 person.
But it's quite simple to understand if population grows the need for farmland increases but most often the farmland decreases because cities grow and grow.

1000 years or not. I'm already beyound the 40 years or younger range.
Luckily I might add because I don't feel link working to the age of 995 until retirement :laughing7:

They make a great chowder.  :girlheart:

Have you ever been to this country?  Every time I fly over it, my eyes pop out because of the expanse and beauty of open land--farming, woods, mountains.  Come here lol.

I hope you don't think you will be 'working' and paying taxes for 1000 years.  The whole paradigm of life would change in ways we cannot even imagine. 

I think that part of the problem is that for some unknown reason [to me] a lot of people relish the thought of death.  But, I'm thinking that is because they are tired and discouraged from living tied up in the basement of their houses, as Beloved Servant said, and can't even imagine living full time in the love, peace,  joy, and companionship of Christ.


22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

--Rev 21

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 03, 2009, 10:26:04 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 03, 2009, 08:14:38 AM
Hi guys...

Sorry... but can you guys (anyone) just answer my questions as I've stated them?
(some of them are clear cut yes or no questions, etc.)

thanks guys,
sparrow

Gonna be a long wait judging a recent thread where jabcat asked the same. :sigh:

I guess you were right.


Seems something is amiss if some basic questions can't be answered.
oh well.

 :cloud9: Sparrow and all..........I really think a good foundation for what we're talking about is here.........if you are interested in knowing where we are coming from please read this......... :girlheart:

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking1.htm

Sparrow, let me give this a shot.  You personally probably know most or all of this, and more besides.  This is an attempt at a general summary.  This is what I THINK.  Then if anyone sees themselves as fitting into one camp or another, or believe there's some sorts of mixture(s) in between, then maybe they'll chime in for refutation or clarification - but bottom line, EDIFICATION.

Generally, attempting to lump things into the fewest # of categories;

I think most believe that we will all die a physical death, with the exception of believers that are alive when Jesus literally returns (changed in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, etc).  Some believe that's before a 1,000 year "millinial" reign, some after, some no specific 1,000 year period at all.  Those that are alive when Jesus literally returns will be given immortality without death.  The rest will have to resurrected at some point to be given immortality.  There are many bones of contention about when's, why's, and wherefor's about details - what different groups of people will be doing when, i.e., when's the judgment, are people in heaven and hell, some sort of paradise/holding place, then brought back for judgment, then onto a thousand year period, THEN eternity, etc.  They see the evil, things getting worse, and believe Jesus will come back to fix it.  I'll suggest this is generally group 1.

Then I believe there is a group that GENERALLY believes Jesus may or not literally return (some, such as the Eby article, that He's constantly "returning") but either way, that there will be a group/generation of people who will not die a physical death;  and this is not contingent on the literal presence of Jesus.  They believe there are people who will be "overcomers", that they have done things in this life (enabled by God?) that qualify them AND/OR that they are chosen to be Manifest Sons of God.  That there will be some specific period of time when God moves in such a way, through people on the earth, that things won't be "scrapped" and then restored, but just restored.  Some believe that has already begun to occur.  That things are turning around, and we're about to see things start getting better and better until......?  (I'm not sure what folks in this group believe they'll be doing exactly, where they'll be exactly, if they'll always just live on a renewed earth and that's New Jerusalem;  if they'll ever actually be in God or Jesus' direct presence.  I'm just not sure about that).


So, speaking in large generalities;

Group 1.  Things wax worse and worse until Jesus returns, judges, and fixes it.  He will use "saints", but that it will really be Jesus and God directly/literally involved - present, perhaps able to be seen with our glorified, immortal eyes and senses.  Some of this group believe in a rapture, most believe in a literal heaven off this earth.

Group 2.  Things will start to improve, and then especially be turned around and restored by God working THROUGH the Manifest Sons of God...Jesus won't be literally present, He'll be working through a select company of believers to restore things until ______?_______ happens.

Sparrow, I think the questions you, I, and others have asked are basically coming out of "group 2".  And I don't have all the answers to that.  But I think that's a sort of overview.  

I want to be open to God showing me new things, as long as it's really God doing it, and as long as it fits rightly divided scripture - not strictly private interpretation.  So though I'm personally open to new understandings, I do proceed with caution, and want to try to make sure things either clearly line up with scripture, or at the very least, don't directly contradict a good, comprehensive, accurately translated, properly divided, Spirit-revealed scripture search.


DISCLAIMER - This is too big a subject matter to try to narrow everyone's views down exactly (reference 30,000+ denominations).  This is an attempt at some sort of summary with details, which may hopefully lead to further productive discussion and edification.  I WOULD SUGGEST THIS IS NOTHING TO ARGUE OVER, OR ESPECIALLY TO DIVIDE OVER.  Let's just learn from each other, be open to God's leading, search the scriptures, pray for God's guidance - and seek unity of faith in the Lord Jesus, and to live peaceably with each other - IN HONOR, PREFERRING ONE ANOTHER as Paul said.

The Bereans "received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so" (Acts 17:10-11).

***Either "camp" can believe Jesus is the Son of God, crucified and risen for our sins and life, the Savior of each, and the Savior of the world.  That's where our unity of the faith can anchor.  The cross of Jesus, and His empty tomb.

Ok, let me say this.

If a member says something a bit shocking such as dead people can be brought back to life (physical dead people) or that basically death doesn't have to happen in the first place, (physical) death is something that is supposed to be overcome. Then, if someone QUESTIONS the member to be absolutely sure that is what they are in fact, saying..
I think that is ok. More than ok, I think it is absolutely necessary.

If someone doesn't care to answer my questions, y'know what? I would be FINE with that.
Really. I would. Just come out and tell me. It's much better than wondering if I'm going to get answers or not. It really is much better.



Now with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

are you expecting to never physically die? I suppose your answer would be that you do NOT expect to physically die.

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old? I suppose your answer would be that yes of course, because you do not expect to physically die.

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die? I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially... those who believe this will not physically die and they will go on to spread peace and health etc. to the rest of the world. And they will eventually raise dead people up out of their graves.

Is this basically what you are saying?
It's kind of difficult trying to decipher your views from someone elses's views so I'm doing my best here with what you have given me.

Jab, I appreciate what you wrote. And hopefully it will be touched on as we further discuss this matter.


To ALL:
I am all for people's beliefs being clarified.
That's my whole, entire point.
How can we understand each other if we don't know for sure what we are each saying?

If I am on the phone with Bob and ask him to describe the tree that he is looking at outside of his window, I don't want Frank to come along and give me a book on "Tree Identification" and tell me that's what I need to know. That doesn't help me understand what Bob's tree looks like if Bob doesn't tell me himself what it looks like.  :winkgrin:

Sparrow, Bob just told me that Frank said that people should answer your questions directly and specifically.  :laughing7:.

:thumbsup:

ok, now that made me laugh out loud.  :laughing7:

 Good, you're laughing.  Card, are you wanting to  :punish: ?   :wink:

 :cloud9: Not at the moment.......I already told Frank I was not feeling well (fighting off congestion in lungs again), and so not feeling the Spirit move me at present. He forgot to tell Bob, to tell you, to tell Sparrow.  :winkgrin:

That's right, old Bob's kind'a forgetful.  You take care, sis, and we'll continue holding you up in prayer.  

"God, please right now, touch Cardinal with Your hand of comfort and supply all her needs by Your riches in glory - all according to Your perfect will".  In Jesus' name.

Quote from: SparrowNow with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

...I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially...

Hi Sparrow, if you read the 'article' by which I'm guessing you mean the first chapter of that book, why are you still referring to the 'second coming' in reference to it, since the major thing that chapter points out is that the notion of a  "second coming" is unscriptural?

I'm just wondering...did you understand what he was saying in that first chapter?  Did you agree or disagree with him?

BTW, I've only read the first chapter, also, and I thought it was beautiful!  Thanks Cardinal.

Quote from: Molly on November 07, 2009, 07:00:03 AM

Quote from: SparrowNow with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

...I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially...

Hi Sparrow, if you read the 'article' by which I'm guessing you mean the first chapter of that book, why are you still referring to the 'second coming' in reference to it, since the major thing that chapter points out is that the notion of a  "second coming" is unscriptural?
I'm just wondering...did you understand what he was saying in that first chapter?  Did you agree or disagree with him?

BTW, I've only read the first chapter, also, and I thought it was beautiful!  Thanks Cardinal.

Which is exactly why I put the term in quotes.
"second coming".


And I don't know if I agree with him or not.

I've benefited from J. Preston's writings.  I agree with much of what he says, in a way, including that Jesus "returns" often.  On the other hand, I also believe He is constantly SPIRITUALLY present, and I'll go ahead and say it.  I still expect to one day behold Him in all His glory...in His glorified body of which He was physically present with the apostles following His resurrection.  I could be wrong, no need to argue, but that's what I believe.  Still, I'm open to when, how, under what circumstances.  Don't have all the answers to that.  Learning as I go.   :2c:

I'm on the fence. Until I feel Him nudging me which way to fly...

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2127/1652874164_c55d52734b.jpg?v=0)




Jabcat, so far your views are pretty close to mine.

 

Quote from: JabI still expect to one day behold Him in all His glory

Yes but look what he says--he doesn't deny that--

Micah 5:2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall He come forth unto Me who is to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting."



"And further, the definite article must be omitted: "So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME, apart from sin, to them that wait for Him, unto salvation." That is how the Greek text reads. The statement is not prophetic, but doctrinal; and the doctrine in question is not the so-called "second coming," but the PRIESTHOOD! It is not the prediction of an event to be realized by those who shall be alive on earth at the time of the end, but the declaration of a truth and a fact to be realized by every elect member of the body of Christ, no matter in what dispensation his sojourn upon earth may fall.

Our Lord Jesus Christ appears a second time to those who LOOK FOR HIM, who diligently seek for Him and follow after Him; not any more as a sin offering appearing in heaven for us, but in the mighty manifestation of His power usward, UNTO SALVATION. And this salvation is the work of our great and wonderful High Priest. This same wonderful truth is set forth in Heb. 7:25 in these words, "Wherefore He is able also to SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them." This phrase is given by Phillips as "He can save fully and completely." Young's Literal, "He is able to save to the very end." Amplified, "He is able to save to the uttermost - completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity." "



The Lord appeared to Adam, to Cain and Abel, to Enoch,  to Abraham, to Moses, to Samuel, to David, to Solomon, to Paul, and on and on.  Why should we expect anything less?


"The Lord HAS APPEARED OF OLD UNTO ME, saying, Yea I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you" ( Jer. 31:3).

Yes, yet J. Preston is a proponent of the Manifest Sons of God doctrine.  So really, honestly, I'm still a little confused as to what he (and others) believe on that.  Some don't think we'll actually "see" Jesus, but that it will be Him working THROUGH the priesthood or Manifest Sons of God.  That's one reason in my diatribe  :happygrin: I said I didn't know what "group 2" believed would eventually occur...where they would end up, if they would EVER be in Jesus' direct presence or not.  And it's true, I honestly don't know, and that may be one of those questions Frank or Bob have yet to answer directly.

I'd just kind of like to see a road map of that understanding..."OK, we're here, a small group doing X,Y,Z.  Then God does A, and we start doing B.  So God and Jesus are either a.) out of our sight or b.) right there at arm's length in His glorified body, talking with us.   And at that time we're on (earth, new earth, in New Jerusalem?), and some people are dying, but there's this one group that's going to live 500-1,000 years doing _______?______.  And then the rest will eventually ___?____. ..... And that's how God becomes All in All."   Silly me, we'd probably end up with an Atlas, you know, like a map for every state - how many different opinions do you think that would garner?   :laughing7:
 
Well, I'm out for awhile, check back later, have a great night.

Bottom line.  Jesus, the Son of God.   :thumbsup:

I'm thinking that if the Lord Jesus showed up in all his glory before we are ready, we might just drop dead lol.  Something about new wine bursting old wineskins.  Look at Paul who was clearly ready and prepared, and he had to be led home by the hand and nursed for three days until a messenger was sent by God to restore his sight.

Therefore, he comes to us in a whole variety of 'hidden' ways, giving us a constantly growing revelation of himself, from glory to glory,  until we are at the point where we can see him face to face and live.


Jehovah is the ever-coming One. The Coming One is my Lord and my God. Various Jehovah combinations or compound names are used in the scriptures, each indicating how He comes to us:

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU, the Coming One, thy Righteousness.
JEHOVAH-JIREH, the Coming One, thy Provider.
JEHOVAH-ROPHI, the Coming One, thy Healer.
JEHOVAH-NISSI, the Coming One, thy Banner.
JEHOVAH-MEKADDISHKEN, the Coming One, thy Sanctifier.
JEHOVAH-SHALOM, the Coming One, thy Peace.
JEHOVAH-SABAOTH, the Coming One, thy Warrior.
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH, the Coming One, Present with thee.
JEHOVAH-ELYON, the Coming One, Most High.
JEHOVAH-RA-AH, the Coming One, thy Shepherd.

My thought is: Why group A or B or C?
Why not group A and B and C?
I can very well imagine HS being in people since a very long time. St. Peter as an example. His body died but his spirit never died or fell asleep. The spirit just lives forever. But for me that doesn't mean or prove that God can't have some grand finally planned. "Suddenly" people no longer get ill and sick. And a literal return of Jesus.
Equally I think Revelation could have happend in 70AD and for each deep believer in the past 2000 year happend continually. But just looking with carnal eyes at a carnal newspaper a Revelation like WW3 isn't a insane thought either. And then perhaps Jesus really visibly return. So that's Revelation playing out in 3 groups.
Why
Cardinal sorta wrote splattered over the forum that prophesies happen several times. She had a dream Jesus crucified at the creation of the universe. Then of course Jesus on the cross nearly 2000 years ago. And a few days I've read something let's call it Jesus crucufied "inside of you" (no need for details needed. Just making a point)
And lets face it there is a lot of wishfull thinking since Jesus died. I think it's safe to say every generation had their share of people that believed Jesus will arrive soon.

I keep my wording nice and just say I would find it weird if someone claims some people in the past didn't physically die. That can't be since just by accident TM has the first people in nearly 2000 years that are holy enough to taste that pleasure. I mean are you better that Paul. John. John the Baptist etc?

It's just my feeling there will be  a literal return. Perhaps Jesus gets visible again. Perhaps the whole earth becomes spirit or can see the spirit world. Until now I've only read on this forum: "I felt the HS" "HS told me"
But I think there will be a time when those thing are "more real". Not something for deep believers but something just as obivious as many things we see in this world.

Until then: ...dust to dust... :2c:

I think you make some very good observations and points, Tony.  That's kind of where I am with regard to a mixture of things.  Some literal, all spiritual.

Quote from: Molly on November 07, 2009, 08:06:07 AM
I'm thinking that if the Lord Jesus showed up in all his glory before we are ready, we might just drop dead lol. 

:Sparkletooth:

Quote from: sparrow on November 07, 2009, 07:29:52 AM
I'm on the fence. Until I feel Him nudging me which way to fly...

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2127/1652874164_c55d52734b.jpg?v=0)

Very cute  :thumbsup:

Quick note "off topic".  Everyone remember Card in prayer today (and Rosie, and Taffy, and everyone the Lord brings to mind).  Thanks.

Hi Guys... :icon_flower:

For some years Ive never been led to read the writings of many[all] of those even in UR Circles...Gary Inc..I read Ebay for the first time Yesterday , and some again this morning[ additional writings]...well,  just like to say ,wish id been led earlier ,Praise the LORD for such Clarity, unconvoluting and simple speech .
:icon_flower:

Quote from: Molly on November 07, 2009, 07:00:03 AM

Quote from: SparrowNow with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

...I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially...

Hi Sparrow, if you read the 'article' by which I'm guessing you mean the first chapter of that book, why are you still referring to the 'second coming' in reference to it, since the major thing that chapter points out is that the notion of a  "second coming" is unscriptural?

I'm just wondering...did you understand what he was saying in that first chapter?  Did you agree or disagree with him?

BTW, I've only read the first chapter, also, and I thought it was beautiful!  Thanks Cardinal.

Hi, Molly. I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the second coming of Christ is unscriptural?  :dontknow:  :mshock:

Quote from: jenna on November 07, 2009, 03:47:13 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 07, 2009, 07:00:03 AM

Quote from: SparrowNow with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

...I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially...

Hi Sparrow, if you read the 'article' by which I'm guessing you mean the first chapter of that book, why are you still referring to the 'second coming' in reference to it, since the major thing that chapter points out is that the notion of a  "second coming" is unscriptural?

I'm just wondering...did you understand what he was saying in that first chapter?  Did you agree or disagree with him?

BTW, I've only read the first chapter, also, and I thought it was beautiful!  Thanks Cardinal.

Hi, Molly. I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I am wrong, but are you saying that the second coming of Christ is unscriptural?  :dontknow:  :mshock:

in a word YES jenna :icon_flower:

Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?

Quote from: jenna on November 07, 2009, 03:53:29 PM
Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?

Sorry Jenna, Lol this is Taffy  :icon_flower:

Its a Topic which has been touched on in many a thread in recent months Jenna ...Even if you spend a Little time just reading this in its entirity , you may begin to gata grasp of folk have been discussing...

this link was proposed , to  which I  concur...explaining the second coming..delve through it and and it will save a lot of exchanges . of course were are each entitled to our veiws even so

www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking1.htm


:icon_flower:

Quote from: jenna on November 07, 2009, 03:53:29 PM
Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?

Hi Jenna, we are reading this online book that Cardinal gave the link to above.  He is saying [among other things] that the church notion of a 'second coming' of Christ sometime in the hazy future is not only unscriptural but it deceives the church into missing the continual coming of Christ in our lives now, in a variety of forms and ways.  Want to read the book with us?

From Eby--


"It need hardly be said that in the teachings of Jesus and the early apostles the thought of some future coming of His looms rather large. On a careful consideration of their words, however, it soon becomes apparent that they do not always speak of His coming in the same sense. The study of the teachings of the New Testament on this point calls for careful and prayerful and reverent discrimination. The supposition by the teachers and believers in the church systems that every time the scriptures speak of Christ's "coming" they have one particular and singular future event in mind can only lead to confusion and error.

It should be self-evident that Christ's coming as Bridegroom (Mat. 25:1-10) cannot be to the same people, at the same time, in the same manner, nor for the same purpose as His coming as a Refiner's Fire (Mal. 3:1-3). He comes as Bridegroom to His prepared, adorned, and expectant bride in a deeply spiritual relationship of intimate love and vital union, whereas He comes to those apprehended to be His Royal Priesthood in a manifestation of severity - purging and purifying. Both are said to be His COMING. Christ's coming again as the Spirit of Truth (Jn. 14:16-23) and His coming in Flaming Fire of Vengence (II Thes. 1:7-8) are obviously not the same coming; not to the same people, not at the same time, not in the same manner, nor for the same purpose. He came as the blessed Spirit of Truth on the day of Pentecost and has continued to come in that precious way to illuminate mind and heart of every man and woman who seeks Him in sincerity and truth; but He has come and shall yet come in Flaming Fire to deal out retribution - chastisement and vengence - upon those who do not know or perceive or become adquainted with God and upon those who ignore and refuse to obey the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Both of these manifestations are described in scripture as the COMING of the Lord. It is useless to try to fit them both into one singular event destined to transpire within a few moments of time at the conclusion of this age. The Word of God is clear in its teaching that the coming of the Lord is a many-faceted experience, including many manifestations. Truly He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He shall come; and He shall continue to come!"

 :cloud9: Good morning guys, thanks for the prayers  :HeartThrob: I love you all, my net family.  :girlheart:

First of all, kudos for Beloved Servant for finding that link for me to use.

Second, no one has to believe me, but this is a true story, and those of you who have heard it before, please bear with me. :winkgrin:

When I first came to the Lord 23 years ago, and isolated myself as far as reading materials to a Strong's and Nave's study bible for the first two years of my walk, spending hours upon hours every day pouring thru the scriptures, and looking up the original language. The things that Eby talks about, HE taught me during that first year alone with Him and the Book.

In fact, He taught my friend and I together, but I had no phone at the time and so wouldn't talk to her for a week or two in person, and to our pleased shock, found that He would teach us the SAME THINGS, every single week, but independent of one another, and in different parts of scripture.

Now the funny thing is, we thought we were the only ones He was teaching these things to, until my concerned aunt, sent me a book some woman wrote about cults. As I went thru the book, she listed names, and what each one taught as the foundational beliefs of their ministries.

I finally came to one Kelly Varner, and read all his foundational beliefs. With each one I was saying, "Yeah, God taught me that, that's ok." So with a shock, I realized she was saying my friend and I were were a cult, based on what HE had taught us!

So I called my friend up and said, "I have good news and bad news; which one do you want first?"

She said, "Let me hear the bad news."

I said, "The bad news is, according to some woman who wrote this book my aunt sent me, we're a cult. I don't understand. How can we be a cult if we have no followers???"

She said, "Give me the good news, then."

I said, "The good news is, God is teaching this stuff to someone else; now we just have to find some woman named Kelly Varner!" (turns out Kelly was a man  :mblush:)

Now some things have been expanded for me in the years since, as recently as this summer, but the core principles remain the same. Each revelation from God will always build on the last revelation from God, IF indeed it was a revelation from God.

The reason things don't "line up" at times, is because we have unconsciously accepted some "revelation" from men that was NOT a revelation from God, and so the True Builder rejects the "stone" that was laid.

This is because it does not fit the pattern shown Moses in the mount, OR because it is a true layer or course of "stones" (remember the PRIESTS had COURSES?), BUT it is out of season for the hearer at that time, so He will not quicken it to them yet.

This is true for any revelation, and is the reason why many don't receive UR at this time as well, because the layer of understanding they need to receive it, has not been laid yet.

A city is multiple habitations, and we ARE that city, ie. multiple habitations of Him, and that city has walls, made of stones, laid one layer at a time.

Now man taught us to keep cattle (things yoked to the flesh realm that do works, as opposed to the Spirit whose yoke is light/understanding) from our youth, so it is always a good idea IMO to ask the Lord to cleanse us of any man-made idols we were "fed" along the way, that neither see, nor hear, nor speaks to us the way the Spirit does. My  :2c: Blessings....

ahhh.. Cardinal. you're back.
Have you had time to look at my response to you?
thanks,
sparrow

 :cloud9: In short, I agree with everything Eby says.......Blessings....

So Cardinal... forgive me for being so direct..
but does that mean that you do not care to answer my questions I asked of you?
If so, that's fine. But just let me know... and I'll stop asking.
Thank you,
sparrow

  Awesome  !!! James /aka Jabcat
  you did a  great job  explaining this   natural /physical   bodies   etc.!!!  thanks !  wish my printer was working ... its a keeper . :HeartThrob:

 

Quote from: sparrow on November 07, 2009, 06:30:43 AM
Ok, let me say this.

If a member says something a bit shocking such as dead people can be brought back to life (physical dead people) or that basically death doesn't have to happen in the first place, (physical) death is something that is supposed to be overcome. Then, if someone QUESTIONS the member to be absolutely sure that is what they are in fact, saying..
I think that is ok. More than ok, I think it is absolutely necessary.

If someone doesn't care to answer my questions, y'know what? I would be FINE with that.
Really. I would. Just come out and tell me. It's much better than wondering if I'm going to get answers or not. It really is much better.

Sorry Sparrow........between being really sick and busy with my daughter, I have just not felt like writing much. Now with that said.......



Now with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

I recommend you read all of Eby's writings.

are you expecting to never physically die? I suppose your answer would be that you do NOT expect to physically die.

That is our hope and our expectation and why Paul said Christ in us was the hope of glory, and that glory is going to be revealed in us. And also why he said that he did not wish to put off (die) this mortal body but to have mortality swallowed up of immortality.

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old? I suppose your answer would be that yes of course, because you do not expect to physically die.

If I find grace in His eyes as Noah did, I have a LIVING hope that He will consume this mortal body, and raise it up above the waters of judgment to the flesh. The new will be ageless, so time will be no more for it, just as it is for our Lord, the FORERUNNER of those that go beyond the veil. A forerunner means more will follow.

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die? I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially... those who believe this will not physically die and they will go on to spread peace and health etc. to the rest of the world. And they will eventually raise dead people up out of their graves.

I do not believe in the "second coming" as it is being taught in the churches. Just the fact that they all teach it, yet "FEW there be that find it", should be a red flag that it is not revelation from the Spirit of God.

In '06 I went thru a week of being in His presence where I only slept a total of 7 hours THE WHOLE WEEK, because His Spirit had quickened me so much from the revelation I was receiving.

Sleep being a type of death in scripture, I found out first hand that His Spirit is capable of suspending "normal" bodily functions, or at least functions we have assumed all our lives were "normal". Only having had a taste of that quickening power to that extreme (or more) measure twice in my life like that, I KNOW that there is more to come. I have seen our bodies of glory within us, and at the appointed time, immortality IS going to swallow up our mortal bodies.

Is this basically what you are saying?

Yes, as I said in the earlier post, I agree with Eby's stand on this, although I admit I have not read all of his writings, either. And he is not the only kingdom minister to believe this way, either.

Actually, my first introduction to the very thought of this, came about in a bible study 23 years ago. The Spirit of the Lord simply spoke out of my shocked mouth, that we were not all going to die, that we had a better covenant than the one of old where they lived to unheard of ages in the flesh.

Over the years, occasionally He has given me other confirmations in revelation in the word to this, and probably in the last 6 months a few more after I laid it on the altar last year when it was apparent to all that I was going to die, and I accepted that from His hand if that was His now perfect will for my life.

He had shown me in the past when I was healed of terminal cancer by Him without any medical intervention whatsoever, that if we walk in His perfect will in the proceeding word of life that comes from the Father's mouth, and He continues to heal us because of our obedience to do so, then what can kill us? NOTHING but Him. Into my Father's hands I commend my spirit. Blessings.....

It's kind of difficult trying to decipher your views from someone elses's views so I'm doing my best here with what you have given me.

:hiya: My response is below in BLUE:  :hiya:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 07, 2009, 10:34:00 PM

Quote from: sparrow on November 07, 2009, 06:30:43 AM
Ok, let me say this.

If a member says something a bit shocking such as dead people can be brought back to life (physical dead people) or that basically death doesn't have to happen in the first place, (physical) death is something that is supposed to be overcome. Then, if someone QUESTIONS the member to be absolutely sure that is what they are in fact, saying..
I think that is ok. More than ok, I think it is absolutely necessary.

If someone doesn't care to answer my questions, y'know what? I would be FINE with that.
Really. I would. Just come out and tell me. It's much better than wondering if I'm going to get answers or not. It really is much better.

Sorry Sparrow........between being really sick and busy with my daughter, I have just not felt like writing much. Now with that said.......


From sparrow: I hope you are feeling better. I saw your last post and thought you were feeling up to posting so that is why I asked. I had only asked a few yes or no questions from the beginning and was trying not to trouble folks. Just wanted clarification..


Now with that said, Cardinal I read the article.
So now..

I recommend you read all of Eby's writings.

From sparrow: ALL? lol... even you said you haven't read all of Eby's writings. Just joking. I have read some of his things in the past. I'm sure I'll read more in the future.

are you expecting to never physically die? I suppose your answer would be that you do NOT expect to physically die.

That is our hope and our expectation and why Paul said Christ in us was the hope of glory, and that glory is going to be revealed in us. And also why he said that he did not wish to put off (die) this mortal body but to have mortality swallowed up of immortality.

From sparrow: Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. So the answer is basically yes, although you can't guarantee it but you have a HOPE to not physically die. Your expectation/hope is that you will never leave this earth physically, that your body will not be dead, put in a coffin, put in the ground. .

Are you expecting to live beyond 120 years old? 200 years old? 300 years old? I suppose your answer would be that yes of course, because you do not expect to physically die.

If I find grace in His eyes as Noah did, I have a LIVING hope that He will consume this mortal body, and raise it up above the waters of judgment to the flesh. The new will be ageless, so time will be no more for it, just as it is for our Lord, the FORERUNNER of those that go beyond the veil. A forerunner means more will follow.


From sparrow: Cardinal, I believe you are confusing things by trying to add so many symbols. Just a yes or no would be far more clear. But you already said that you hope to not physically die, so I am going to take it that that would of course mean that you hope to live beyond 300 years. (because basically if you are not going to physically die, then you'll of course live beyond 300 years, 400 years, a trillion years, etc. your body, you are hoping will never actually physically succumb to death. you will just keep on living, and I guess God will tranform your physical body without your body ever having to be put in a physical coffin, etc. .

Why do you think you are not supposed to physically die? I suppose you are saying because the "second coming" is "WITH the saints" meaning God will manifest the new earth by those who are here now on earth, so essentially... those who believe this will not physically die and they will go on to spread peace and health etc. to the rest of the world. And they will eventually raise dead people up out of their graves.

I do not believe in the "second coming" as it is being taught in the churches. Just the fact that they all teach it, yet "FEW there be that find it", should be a red flag that it is not revelation from the Spirit of God.

From sparrow: Yes, I understand...that is why I put that phrase in quotes. So (and you can answer this whenever you are feeling better and have time, I'm just happy that at least NOW I have a pretty good idea of where you are coming from) do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves? And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die? (Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)

In '06 I went thru a week of being in His presence where I only slept a total of 7 hours THE WHOLE WEEK, because His Spirit had quickened me so much from the revelation I was receiving.

Sleep being a type of death in scripture, I found out first hand that His Spirit is capable of suspending "normal" bodily functions, or at least functions we have assumed all our lives were "normal". Only having had a taste of that quickening power to that extreme (or more) measure twice in my life like that, I KNOW that there is more to come. I have seen our bodies of glory within us, and at the appointed time, immortality IS going to swallow up our mortal bodies.


From sparrow: Sleep deprivation does suspend or slow down normal bodily functions, so that makes sense.  I don't believe that there is NOT more to come. That's pretty much the whole point of life... there IS more to come. I just don't know if I believe that some human beings will skip over the process of these mortal bodies succumbing to death. That's all. But my whole point in asking these questions was NOT to debate, but to clarify your views, so thank you for the clarification.


Is this basically what you are saying?

Yes, as I said in the earlier post, I agree with Eby's stand on this, although I admit I have not read all of his writings, either. And he is not the only kingdom minister to believe this way, either.


From sparrow: Wait though...."few be that find it!" lol.... the more people who believe it, the more red flags go up!  (smile)

Actually, my first introduction to the very thought of this, came about in a bible study 23 years ago. The Spirit of the Lord simply spoke out of my shocked mouth, that we were not all going to die, that we had a better covenant than the one of old where they lived to unheard of ages in the flesh.
Over the years, occasionally He has given me other confirmations in revelation in the word to this, and probably in the last 6 months a few more after I laid it on the altar last year when it was apparent to all that I was going to die, and I accepted that from His hand if that was His now perfect will for my life.

He had shown me in the past when I was healed of terminal cancer by Him without any medical intervention whatsoever, that if we walk in His perfect will in the proceeding word of life that comes from the Father's mouth, and He continues to heal us because of our obedience to do so, then what can kill us? NOTHING but Him. Into my Father's hands I commend my spirit. Blessings.....


From sparrow: To the underlined, I don't doubt that you believe that is what happened (that it came from God). Perhaps, Cardinal... you are right! Perhaps! Though, to be honest, Cardinal...I feel I must tell you that I take things like "God told me..." and "God showed me..." and "God did this supernatural thing...." and dissect them very carefully. Discernment is extremely important to me. Even the things that I feel God has done in my life, I tread carefully and keep some things to myself. I think that there are a lot of times when people think God is talking to them or showing them something, but they are wrong. Supernatural things also do not always mean it is coming from God. So I am not saying that I don't believe what you are saying. Please don't take offense. I have had experiences as well. Yes, some supernatural. I'm very careful of who I share certain things with. And I don't expect people to just believe nor do I WANT them to. To me, that's not how it works.  I've read plenty of people saying "Well, God told me this..." and it is very obvious that what they are saying is NOT from God. Just hang around an ET discussion long enough, and you'll see plenty of "God spoke to me and told me..." 's. YES! God speaks to us. Of course! In a vast multitude of ways, many times very personal ways. But discernment is of the utmost importance. And everyone should take these types of things with a grain of salt and compare it with what God has put in their own heart and with what goes along with scripture. I think we would agree though, eh sister?

And I am very glad that you were healed of terminal cancer. It is a horrible disease.  My mom had cancer and had every treatment known to man and died at 45. My grandmother had the same cancer, refused the treatments and lived well into her 80's with no signs of the disease that they said was aggressive and she needed aggressive treatment. Go figure. I'm not saying that people should stop going to doctors, not at all. Just sharing what happened in my own family.


Ok, so basically the bottom line, at least the first question has been anwered. You do not expect to physically die. This is your hope. Ok, that's your belief. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. But I'm glad to at least now know what you DO believe, sister.

Perhaps the other questions will be answered eventually through other discussions. I won't bother you anymore since you said you are not feeling well. I hope you feel better. And Thank you for taking the time to answer some questions. I appreciate it!  :HeartThrob:


Now... Martin..  :winkgrin: are these your beliefs too?
I don't like to assume or lump folks all together.


peace. .

(In case you missed it my response is in BLUE in the above quote.)


With all of that said. for me... Jesus death and resurrection gives us the hope that enables us to walk through this last enemy: death. The death of our loved ones and to face our OWN death with the eyes of strength and hope and confidence and not the eyes of fear. FAITH. Faith in the UNSEEN. For who hopes for what he already sees?

Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant traumatic event in my life.
Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant unveiling of His glory and power in my life.
Only GOD could make someone say THOSE two sentences at the same time.
Only GOD could transform the coal black depths of sorrow into actual.... laughter.
Actual laughter.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I understand the depths of that.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I get it. Through countless dark days and nights.
Through immeasurable fallen tears out of these little bird eyes...
I get it. He transformed my black sorrow, not only into joy...but at times, actual laughter.

There is nothing to fear. All is well.
If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Being victorious over death for me, does not mean that I need to skip over the process of my physical body succuming to death and being cremated.
Perhaps, like Cardinal was saying... this won't be the case. Perhaps something will happen and life will change in a way that God will do something to stop people from physically dying. If that's the case that's fine, great. But for me, it doesn't matter. Either way, I am victorious through Christ.

But I will tell you, walking through death with Jesus by my side has been one of the most powerfully overwhelming things in my life to date.

peace.

will write more at a later time...
this is a big topic.
Because it has to deal with not only "spiritual" death but actual "physical" death.
But the "physical death" is what I am specifically talking about here.

Quote from: rosered on November 07, 2009, 10:09:36 PM


  Awesome  !!! James /aka Jabcat
  you did a  great job  explaining this   natural /physical   bodies   etc.!!!  thanks !  wish my printer was working ... its a keeper . :HeartThrob: 

Thanks Rosie.  God's blessings to you and yours.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Sparrow
Jesus death and resurrection gives us the hope that enables us to walk through this last enemy: death. The death of our loved ones and to face our OWN death with the eyes of strength and hope and confidence and not the eyes of fear. FAITH. Faith in the UNSEEN. For who hopes for what he already sees?

Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant traumatic event in my life.
Going through the deaths of loved ones has been a constant unveiling of His glory and power in my life.
Only GOD could make someone say THOSE two sentences at the same time.
Only GOD could transform the coal black depths of sorrow into actual.... laughter.
Actual laughter.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I understand the depths of that.
Blessed are those who mourn.
I get it. Through countless dark days and nights.
Through immeasurable fallen tears out of these little bird eyes...
I get it. He transformed my black sorrow, not only into joy...but at times, actual laughter.

There is nothing to fear. All is well.
If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
Being victorious over death for me, does not mean that I need to skip over the process of my physical body succuming to death and being cremated.
Perhaps, like Cardinal was saying... this won't be the case. Perhaps something will happen and life will change in a way that God will do something to stop people from physically dying. If that's the case that's fine, great. But for me, it doesn't matter. Either way, I am victorious through Christ.

But I will tell you, walking through death with Jesus by my side has been one of the most powerfully overwhelming things in my life to date.

peace.

Amen, Sparrow.  That is the way I see the power of Christ at work in us too.
Thank you so much for sharing from your heart with us in this way  :HeartThrob:

Anne

 :cloud9: Me too, Sparrow........good post  :thumbsup:

The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:


A 128-year old Uzbekistan woman may be the oldest person on Earth
Nigora Yadgarova
06/02/2009

UZBEKISTAN — Tuti Yusupova of the Turtkul region of the Karakalpakstan Autonomous Republic in Uzbekistan may be declared the world's oldest person. Journalists report that according to her passport Tuti Yusupova is more than 128 years old.

Born on July 1, 1880, in Karakalpakia, which at that time was a part of the Khiva Khanate vassal state of the Russian empire, she married at the age of 17, bore two children, was widowed 60 years ago and has more than 100 descendants. For a long time, Yusupova worked on the construction of the local Shakhtaarna and Bogen canals. Local residents respect her qualities of honesty and enthusiasm, and youth listen to her exhortations. The long-living woman notes that she is in good health with hearing loss as her only problem.



Her age became known when officials decided to count how many people in the country had passed the 100-year mark. Last year, Yusupova and Uzbekistan's other centenarians were awarded the Shukrat (Glory) medal.

The main proof of the Uzbek woman's age is her passport. But because Yusupova has not undergone a gerontological examination, however, she has not yet been entered into the Guinness Book of Records. As of today the oldest person in the world according to Guiness is 116-year old Maria Luisa Febron-Mayler of Quebec, Canada,



http://centralasiaonline.com/en/articles/090206_year_nws/

"Have not I written to thee EXCELLENT THINGS in counsels and knowledge, that I might make thee know the certainty of the words of truth; that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee?" The word "EXCELLENT", as used here, is the Hebrew word SHALISH meaning three-fold, or weighty. It is most interesting to note that Young's Literal translation renders it, "Have I not written to thee THREE TIMES with counsels and knowledge?" A free translation would run, "Have I not written unto you THREE-FOLD things?" Three-fold things. These are the excellent things of God. These are weighty things, things which have depth upon depth upon depth in their meaning. This three-fold principle is brought forth again and again as the Spirit unfolds the truth appointed for His overcoming company in this important hour.

While men speak of the "first coming" and the "second coming" of Christ, God's program is in THREES. God has promised to meet with man in THREE DIMENSIONS. He has met man historically and experientially in the first and second realms. I declare to you that He will meet with us dispensationally and experientially yet a THIRD time! The pattern is clear: "THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the Lord thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of UNLEAVENED BREAD (Passover), and in the feast of WEEKS (Pentecost), and in the feast of TABERNACLES: and they shall not appear before the Lord empty" (Deut. 16:16). God says that He will meet with man THREE times - in the three great Feasts of the Lord! "THREE TIMES in a year shall all your males appear before the Lord." To "appear before the Lord" designates not only an action on our part, but a reciprocal action on God's part. Not only must we appear, but HE MUST APPEAR! It is a joint-meeting in which WE APPEAR B-E-F-O-R-E_H-I-M, or as the apostle has so eloquently explained, "When Christ, who is our life, SHALL APPEAR, then shall YE ALSO APPEAR WITH HIM in glory" (Col. 3:4). When this three-fold aspect of His appearing is clearly understood, then the fact that the scriptures nowhere speak of just a "first coming" and a "second coming" takes on new meaning!

The Feasts of Jehovah were but types and shadows of those things that were yet to come. These Feasts portrayed in their typology God's plan for this world even to the very end of the ages. They bring to us the unfolding plan of redemption that was ordained before the foundation of the world. An Old Testament type is literally a word picture or an object lesson that pre-figures that which is to come. In another sense, it is an exact shadow of that which does not yet exist. The apostle Paul in speaking of those things which happened to Israel in their wilderness journey stated, "Now all these things happened unto them for ENSAMPLES (EXAMPLES), and they are written for OUR ADMONITION (INSTRUCTION), upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come" (I Cor. 10:11)."

--J. Preston Eby

  Ok Lol Just all of pages 5 and 6 and what Molly shared  of Eby .

 good stuff guys ,,
I   loved that  about the foundations laid   so they can  receive ., Card  :cloud9:

   I am being enlightened   on things  that were just pieces  here and there  , nothing  solid  
Wow !    special thanks to sparrow for  persevering   for answers brought  out  in the open   :thumbsup:

 if we  have  the  natural body and   spiritual body     from the  inccoruptible seed /Word  

both at the same time here  it is possible for   death and life  at  once
 Do you think this is possible ?

It is all so thought provoking  :icon_flower:

 thanks  to you all,   and   especially  the GOOD LORD in His mercy on us
  :HeartThrob:

sparrow post 126 is so inspiring, also as I see and understand death and living also.
You intelligently and humbly word your posts so they are so easy to understand.
I appreciate this and believe others do also. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 03:21:50 AM
The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:

It's been broken for 13 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment), actually. :laughing7:

Not to be snarky or anything, though, but I don't see what people living progressively slightly longer lives on average as civilization progresses has to do with Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and such like.  Aren't people supposed to never die?  Are our incorruptible bodies being phased in slowly, or something?  It seems to me that either we will never die, or we will die, and if we will die, then we haven't really gotten anywhere at all in terms of what some believe we are promised in the Bible.

 

 if we  have  the  natural body and   spiritual body     from the  inccoruptible seed /Word  

both at the same time here  it is possible for   death and life  at  once
 Do you think this is possible ?

It is all so thought provoking  :icon_flower:

 thanks  to you all,   and   especially  the GOOD LORD in His mercy on us
  :HeartThrob:
[/quote]

Death and life at the same time,I think so.
I really believe I felt when I died and started living, Yet this maybe just me. :cloud9:
I am dead but alive. :bigGrin: New life is so refreshing.

 

 Hi  SQ, agree!!   alive and quickened  :HeartThrob:
  awesome are Gods promises to us through Jesus Christ ! :icon_flower:

I always had this belief in thinking for years now   that our  natural bodies    are the cursed in Adam by the Lord and He Keeps His Word
 dust you are and dust you shall return ..

and the serpent  did not know God raises  the dead in a   new  and glorified body
 that is why his  curse  would be to eat the dustall its life  / Adams scattered flesh and  Adams flesh was cursed for his sake ,for his  benefit
for the serpent   also  the bruised head   / wounded and kept in a low position for always .

 guys I am so simple here ..    I cannot seem to go beyond this  
even after everything I have read !  :mshock:

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. -- Genesis 3:22-23



If I have the belief we were never intended to live in flesh bodies forever.
If Adam and Eve had not been set outside of the garden they would have eaten from the tree of life and lived in a sinful condition forever they and all their offspring. :dontknow:
Not sure but kicking the thought around.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Quote from: SQ on November 08, 2009, 04:31:57 AM


Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. -- Genesis 3:22-23



If I have the belief we were never intended to live in flesh bodies forever.
If Adam and Eve had not been set outside of the garden they would have eaten from the tree of life and lived in a sinful condition forever they and all their offspring. :dontknow:
Not sure but kicking the thought around.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

  Thats  how i too see it  too SQ !
  In the first Chapter of  of Gen. we see that the Lord did make  Adam  male/female   and called them Adam  [two in one flesh] in His Image
  spirtitual

  it was not till chapter two he/Adam  was formed  again  out of the  ground
and become a soul .....

  how much is there  to us  '' beings'' :msealed: anyways  lol .. ?

 

  I have been reading some of Ebys  writings

and he does make some great points !
  but the    ''second coming ''  a babylonian expression

   I can see Jesus  saying this and this is why the ''church thinks ''  second coming

  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 


Jhn 14:4   
And where ever  I go you  know, and the way you know

   I think I have stagnated  for some time now :sigh:
I will keep reading ......... :thumbsup:

So... God has a feminine side?  :boyheart: :girlheart:

Quote from: rosered on November 08, 2009, 04:48:13 AM


  I have been reading some of Ebys  writings

and he does make some great points !
  but the    "second coming "  a babylonian expression

   I can see Jesus  saying this and this is why the "church thinks "  second coming

  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 


Jhn 14:4   
And where ever  I go you  know, and the way you know

   I think I have stagnated  for some time now :sigh:
I will keep reading ......... :thumbsup:

I have started reading Eby's writings also from Beloved Servant links left laying around here at Tent.
The writings are a bit deep but do understand some of it and agree.
I can't agree or disagree with the rest yet. Lol

Quote from: SQ on November 08, 2009, 04:51:53 AM

So... God has a feminine side?  :boyheart: :girlheart:

 Seems so sis , seems so .. :gangel:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.  

                 :HeartThrob:

I mentioned this before on another board and was called a heretic.
I really like that God is not only male but female too. :thumbsup: :bgdance:

rosie, i'm with you on what you're saying.  i think some of these things don't have (an apparent) easy or clear-cut answer. that's sort of what i've been saying, i.e., i sort of see a mix of things sometimes.  some literal, all spiritual...some things mainstream teaches as in error, some things not.  One not necessarily ruling out the other, i.e., continually coming, ever present, literally in His presence - is, was, will be.

God used P. Eby to help me see UR 2.5 years ago.  I've benefited from his writing.  He may be MUCH better than most, but IMO, no one man knows it all, and there's still room for "searching the scriptures to see if these things be so" (including asking God to reveal truth to us - which I believe, ALWAYS lines up with His written Word).  Keep digging   :bigGrin:  :thumbsup:.

 :cloud9: That's the way I see it too, SQ.......had they eaten of the tree of life there would have been no more sacrifice for sin and they would have stayed that way. Echoed in the NT, eh?

And Rose, the part about the layers came from a vision I had while several of us were ministering one night. One spoke and I saw it as a row of jewels being laid in a wall that was being built. Another spoke, and another layer of different jewels were laid. They are like stepping stones, ie. the watchman walks upon the walls.

This is why the WHOLE BODY is to be built up to share what He has made life in them, not just a select titled few, this is what edifies or builds up the body, ie. the walls of the city.

I loved Eby's comments above. In this third appearing or moed (divine appointment) it is witnessed by the sacrifice on the day of atonement. The ram was skinned first, and it was to be cut in the joints, not a bone broken (not a bone of His was broken). The head was taken away first, and set aside.

When they finished cutting up the rest of the body, the head was put on the altar first (the first shall be last and the last shall be first), followed by it's body parts.

The Father commanded that no parts should be joined flesh to flesh, not touching at all. This was so the fire would come up between the pieces. This represents the baptism of fire, and this baptism in the HG becomes the LOVE that every joint supplies.

So what is happening when someone comes to the Lord, is a "piece" of Adam is "cut off", ie. men no longer joined by the flesh. Then when they receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost they are joined by His Spirit, and the fire begins to consume the offering. This is how we make of ourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE. Blessings....

Quote from: SQ on November 08, 2009, 04:59:14 AM

Quote from: rosered on November 08, 2009, 04:48:13 AM


  I have been reading some of Ebys  writings

and he does make some great points !
  but the    "second coming "  a babylonian expression

   I can see Jesus  saying this and this is why the "church thinks "  second coming

  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 


Jhn 14:4   
And where ever  I go you  know, and the way you know

   I think I have stagnated  for some time now :sigh:
I will keep reading ......... :thumbsup:

I have started reading Eby's writings also from Beloved Servant links left laying around here at Tent.
The writings are a bit deep but do understand some of it and agree.
I can't agree or disagree with the rest yet. Lol

  I hear that sis ,
 I do enjoy the  ''light bulb''  moments  though  :wink3:.. hee hee  

    Jesus is everywere  all the time  ,  I have thought this  much for awhile now  :icon_king:  

QuoteWe dare not lose eight of the fact that our Lord has already had many comings, many appearings. We have limited the comings of Jesus strictly to two because of our unscriptural terms "first coming" and "second coming," but the truth is that He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; and He will continue to come! There are numerous "comings" and "appearings" of the Lord in the New Testament. BUT THEY DO NOT ALL REFER TO THE SAME EVENT. The word "coming" is very often used in the scriptures of a visitation or manifestation of the Lord to judge or bless or accomplish some aspect of His plan and purpose among His people and in the earth. One would think, listening to the preachers rant and rave about "THE second coming of Christ," that every time the Lord says, "I will come," He is speaking of one, specific, particular, singular event sometime out in the dim and misty future. I do not hesitate to tell you that this is a great error.

Quote from: SQ on November 08, 2009, 05:06:26 AM
I mentioned this before on another board and was called a heretic.
I really like that God is not only male but female too. :thumbsup: :bgdance:

:cloud9: Yes He does, SQ........El Shaddai, many breasted one. And wisdom, "she" is His consort, "she" was there before the beginning of the foundation. A wise woman/soul builds her house with wisdom. Do a study on it and it will blow you away. Blessings....

Quote from: jabcat on November 08, 2009, 05:06:46 AM
rosie, i'm with you on what you're saying.  i think some of these things don't have (an apparent) easy or clear-cut answer. that's sort of what i've been saying, i.e., i sort of see a mix of things sometimes.  some literal, all spiritual...some things mainstream teaches as in error, some things not.  i think it's like ww said earlier, who says (for sure, absolutely beyond question) that just because Jesus comes and comes and/or is ever present, that He absolutely can't ever literally return and us be in His direct presence with His resurrected, glorified body someday?  that's the way i see it, to name one of the issues.

God used P. Eby to help me see UR 2.5 years ago.  I've benefited from his writing.  He may be MUCH better than most, but IMO, no one man knows it all, and there's still room for "searching the scriptures to see if these things be so" (including asking God to reveal truth to us - which I believe, ALWAYS lines up with His written Word).  Keep digging   :bigGrin:  :thumbsup:.

Thanks  James  :icon_flower:
 I  did   read your and  WW's  conversation ,  He  did bring up some   very valid points  
I also agree with you on the fact  that some  of the Word  does  come natural as well as spiritual,   all  things fulfilled  in Christ
that is what kinda causes the confusion in a way  
I KNOW its not God  doing this  
 but our own inability to ''grasp ''  some things  
I  know its  in me ..lol

I have always   kinda shy ed   away   from  alot of  commentaries and mens teachings
 maybe because   the Lord had to prepare me for it  now ,    
 I  just studied with the bible  strongs and    lexicon   bible dictonary and a few very close and  dear friends .    Red/ Carleen  is one   :HeartThrob:
sort of what Card wrote about her experience
 I thought wow!!      sounds familiar    :thumbsup:

  But I   was  maybe not able to recieve it or discern  any ones  writings


 I am  grateful to the Lord for His  patience and  wonderful Spirit working  for us all . :HeartThrob:
 :HeartThrob:

Sounds good rosie!   :flowerred:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2009, 05:11:53 AM
:cloud9: That's the way I see it too, SQ.......had they eaten of the tree of life there would have been no more sacrifice for sin and they would have stayed that way. Echoed in the NT, eh?

And Rose, the part about the layers came from a vision I had while several of us were ministering one night. One spoke and I saw it as a row of jewels being laid in a wall that was being built. Another spoke, and another layer of different jewels were laid. They are like stepping stones, ie. the watch walks upon the walls.

This is why the WHOLE BODY is to be built up to share what He has made life in them, not just a select titled few, this is what edifies or builds up the body, ie. the walls of the city.

I loved Eby's comments above. In this third appearing or moed (divine appointment) it is witnessed by the sacrifice on the day of atonement. The ram was skinned first, and it was to be cut in the joints, not a bone broken (not a bone of His was broken). The head was taken away first, and set aside.

When they finished cutting up the rest of the body, the head was put on the altar first (the first shall be last and the last shall be first), followed by it's body parts.

The Father commanded that no parts should be joined flesh to flesh, not touching at all. This was so the fire would come up between the pieces. This represents the baptism of fire, and this baptism in the HG becomes the LOVE that every joint supplies.

So what is happening when someone comes to the Lord, is a "piece" of Adam is "cut off", ie. men no longer joined by the flesh. Then when they receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost they are joined by His Spirit, and the fire begins to consume the offering. This is how we make of ourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE. Blessings....

 wow!! :bigGrin:   Awesome  explanation Cardinal !
 I did  not realize this , alot of things the Lord does ,  is in such a divine order ...    and Perfect  ! of course  :HeartThrob:

 thanks  for sharing that with me ..  :HeartThrob:

Another important truth in relation to these Feasts is that they are all HIS FEASTS! There are so many Christians today who are possessed of the childish notion that God is the manager of a great heavenly super market, or that He is a glorified celestial Santa Claus. All we have to do is just quote our favorite "faith scripture," snap our finger, turn our faith loose, and God comes running with a load of goodies with which to satisfy our every whim and fancy. NOT SO! He is LORD. He is SOVEREIGN. He is KING. And these are not our Feasts, they are HIS FEASTS. This is a grand and sublime truth we must understand from the beginning if we would progress into the depths of God. These are HIS FEASTS, the Feasts of THE LORD! He's the Host, and we are the guests. Sometimes people like to appear religious, and they hang on the wall a little plaque that says, "Christ is the unseen guest at every meal." I trust, my brother, my sister, that Christ is NOT the guest in your home! He should be the HOST! He must be LORD!

GOD appointed who would meet with Him in the Feasts. All the males of Israel were to keep the Feasts and appear before Him in the place where He put His name; so the Feasts are especially for sons. Not only did God designate WHO would meet with Him, but He specified WHEN they would meet and WHERE they would meet. God ordained the whole thing and established the order thereof. He commanded that they meet with Him in the place where the name of the Lord was recorded. In Old Testament economy that was first in the tabernacle in the wilderness and later in the temple at Jerusalem. In New Testament fulfillment it is first of all in Jesus Christ and then in His many-membered body. The name of the Lord, which means the nature of the Lord, was recorded in the life of Jesus Christ and now is being sealed in the foreheads of His firstfruits company who are putting on the precious mind of the Christ. Furthermore, God gave commandment concerning what the males of Israel were to bring to His Feasts. He left no detail lacking. HE was the Lord of WHO, WHEN WHERE, WHAT and HOW in relation to His Feasts. You will come HIS way, precious friend of mine, and see Him and know Him and experience Him in HIS APPOINTED FEASTS, or you will never see Him at all!

--J.Preston Eby


The three feasts--Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles--is that the saving of soul, spirit, and body, in that order?  Also, signifies entering into the three parts of the Temple?  Only his[glorified] body can enter the Most Holy place [in heaven] and live?  

But--


Ephesians 5:30
.. we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

QuoteThe three feasts--Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles--is that the saving of soul, spirit, and body, in that order?  Also, signifies entering into the three parts of the Temple?  Only his[glorified] body can enter the Most Holy place [in heaven] and live? 

But--


Ephesians 5:30
.. we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

  Good thoughts Molly :icon_flower: , and great question , seems 3 's are important part of completion   in Gods order of things ..

  1 HIS BODY 2 His flesh  3 his bones

   there is 3 again .. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 05:35:26 AM
The three feasts--Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles--is that the saving of soul, spirit, and body, in that order?  Also, signifies entering into the three parts of the Temple?  Only his[glorified] body can enter the Most Holy place [in heaven] and live?

:cloud9: Amen Molly, that is what has been shown to me. I had a dream last year, where I saw Him quickly going from compartment to compartment of the Tabernacle. I thought from what I saw that He was changing garments as He went from one office to another. Then revelation came that HE WAS PUTTING ON GARMENTS now. Blessings....

The children of Israel were delivered from Egypt in the first month and the Feast of Passover was celebrated in the first month. The Law was given at Mount Sinai in the third month and the Feast of Pentecost was kept in the third month. The people gathered in the abundance of their crops for the first time in the land of promise in the seventh month and the Feast of Tabernacles was observed in the seventh month. When God meets man in the first dimension, He meets us in the Feast of Passover. Jesus appears to us, He comes to us as SAVIOUR in that realm. "When I see the blood, I will pass-over you!" (Ex. 12:13). I am confident that every reader of these lines has passed through that Feast, has met and seen and experienced the Lord in that realm. "For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" (I Cor. 5:7). Jesus is the Lamb of God. The old Paschal Feast is gone forever. We no longer need a Paschal Feast of the old type, we no longer need to appear before the Lord in Jerusalem in the Old Feast, for HE HAS APPEARED unto us as the Lamb of God and has cleansed us with His precious blood. Has God met with you for the first time? Has Christ come to you in the first dimension? Has He appeared to you as the Lamb of God? Have you eaten the Lamb? If so, the Lamb is WITHIN you!

The Feast of Pentecost was a separate Feast and the Pentecostal experience is a separate experience. Has God met with you a second time? Has Christ come to you in a second dimension of His presence and life and glory? Has He come from heaven as a rushing mighty wind and filled your house with power and glory? Has He appeared to you as the Baptizer with the Holy Ghost and Fire? Have you appeared before Him in the joy and glory of the spiritual Feast of Pentecost? Then you are blessed indeed! But the idea entertained by many Christians is that now since we have had Passover and Pentecost, there is nothing left to do but die and go to heaven, or catch the rapture, whichever comes first. That's what most folk tell me. There's nothing more. The only things that remain to be experienced in God beyond salvation and speaking in tongues and blessings are golden streets and harps and palm branches for eternity. But I have news for you, my friend. God does not stop at Pentecost and the second Feast is but the "earnest" and the "firstfruits" of the final Feast! In Israel the Feast of Pentecost was "the feast of harvest, the FIRSTFRUITS of thy labours" (Deut. 16:9-12). Under New Testament economy this is the FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. "And not only they, but ourselves also which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." (Rom. 8:23). We have had the Feasts of Passover and Pentecost and both of these Feasts have been fulfilled IN THIS AGE IN THE CHURCH which is His body, and right here on the earth. For some strange reason men seek to postpone the last Feast to some future age, or give it to the Jews, or relegate it to some beautiful "Isle of Somewhere," and consequently the real spiritual meaning and import of the Feast of Tabernacles is completely obscured and lost. The grand truth is that like the others, the Feast of Tabernacles will be fulfilled in the body of Christ. It will be fulfilled dispensationally, it will be fulfilled in us individually, and it will be fulfilled in us as the Corporate Man.

--J. Preston Eby

 :cloud9: Amen, Molly........and for those that are seeing this now and the post about God revealing things in a 3 fold dimension, it would be helpful to read the whole sticky posted in this section of the board, called, "Experiencing the Tabernacle". Blessings to all.... :girlheart:

The Feast of Tabernacles
Overview
The Feast of Tabernacles is a week-long autumn harvest festival. Tabernacles is also known as the Feast of the Ingathering, Feast of the Booths, Sukkoth, Succoth, or Sukkot (variations in spellings occur because these words are transliterations of the Hebrew word pronounced "Sue-coat"). The two days following the festival are separate holidays, Shemini Atzeret and Simkhat Torah, but are commonly thought of as part of the Feast of Tabernacles.

The Feast of Tabernacles was the final and most important holiday of the year. The importance of this festival is indicated by the statement, "This is to be a lasting ordinance." The divine pronouncement, "I am the Lord your God," concludes this section on the holidays of the seventh month. The Feast of Tabernacles begins five days after Yom Kippur on the fifteenth of Tishri (September or October). It is a drastic change from one of the most solemn holidays in our year to one of the most joyous. The word Sukkoth means "booths," and refers to the temporary dwellings that Jews are commanded to live in during this holiday, just as the Jews did in the wilderness. The Feast of Tabernacles lasts for seven days and ends on the twenty-first day (3x7) of the Hebrew month of Tishri, which is Israel's seventh month.

This holiday has a dual significance: historical and agricultural (just as Passover and Pentecost). Historically, it was to be kept in remembrance of the dwelling in tents in the wilderness for the forty-year period during which the children of Israel were wandering in the desert.

It is expounded in Leviticus 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

What were they to remember?
Matthew Henry's commentary explains,

1.) The meanness of their beginning, and the low and desolate state out of which God advanced that people. Note: Those that are comfortably fixed ought often to call to mind their former unsettled state, when they were but little in their own eyes. 2.) The mercy of God to them, that, when they dwelt in tabernacles, God not only set up a tabernacle for Himself among them, but, with the utmost care and tenderness imaginable, hung a canopy over them, even the cloud that sheltered them from the heat of the sun. God's former mercies to us and our fathers ought to be kept in everlasting remembrance. The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses. And they would the more sensibly value and be thankful for the comforts and conveniences of their houses when they had been seven days dwelling in booths. It is good for those that have ease and plenty sometimes to learn what it is to endure hardness.

They were to keep this holiday in thankfulness to God for all the increase of the year; however, the emphasis is that Israel's life rested upon redemption which in its ultimate meaning is the forgiveness of sin. This fact separates this holiday from the harvest festivals of the neighboring nations whose roots lay in the mythological activity of the gods.

Was the first Thanksgiving a Feast of Tabernacles Celebration?


Many Americans, upon seeing a decorated sukkah for the first time, remark on how much the sukkah (and the holiday generally) reminds them of Thanksgiving. The American pilgrims, who originated the Thanksgiving holiday, were deeply religious people. As they were trying to find a way to express their thanks for their survival and for the harvest, it is quite possible that they looked to the Bible (Leviticus 23:39) for an appropriate way of celebrating and based their holiday in part on the Feast of Tabernacles.

Note: celebrating Thanksgiving on the third Thursday of November was established by the American government and may not necessarily coincide with the pilgrim's first observance.

http://biblicalholidays.com/tabernacles.htm

Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.



Is he preparing a body for us?  Is that the promised land?

On some level perhaps?  

I personally don't rule out all of these thoughts as well;  (WARNING - some orthodox terminology included   :mshock:    :happy3:)

"The city's exact dimensions are measured by an angel and reported to be 12,000 stadia, the equivalent of 1,400 miles or 2,200 kilometers, in length, width, and height (Revelation 21:15-16). Even though these proportions may have symbolic importance, this doesn't mean they can't be literal. In fact, Scripture emphasizes that the dimensions are given in "man's measurement" (Revelation 21:17). If the city really has these dimensions (and there's no reason it couldn't), what more could we expect God to say to convince us? (I deal with whether the dimensions are literal in appendix B, "Literal and Figurative Interpretation.")

A metropolis of this size in the middle of the United States would stretch from Canada to Mexico and from the Appalachian Mountains to the California border. The New Jerusalem is all the square footage anyone could ask for.

Even more astounding is the city's 1,400-mile height. Some people suggest this is the reach of the city's tallest towers and spires, rising above buildings of lesser height. If so, they argue that it's more like a pyramid than a cube.

We don't need to worry that Heaven will be crowded. The ground level of the city will be nearly two million square miles. This is forty times bigger than England and fifteen thousand times bigger than London. It's ten times as big as France or Germany and far larger than India. But remember, that's just the ground level.

Given the dimensions of a 1,400-mile cube, if the city consisted of different levels (we don't know this), and if each story were a generous twelve feet high, the city could have over 600,000 stories. If they were on different levels, billions of people could occupy the New Jerusalem, with many square miles per person.

If these numbers are figurative, not literal (and that is certainly possible), surely they are still meant to convey that the home of God's people will be extremely large and roomy.

The cube shape of the New Jerusalem reminds us of the cube shape of the Most Holy Place in the Temple (1 Kings 6:20), the three dimensions perhaps suggestive of the three persons of the Trinity. God will live in the city, and it is his presence that will be its greatest feature."

(Excerpted from Heaven by Randy Alcorn, p. 242-243)  http://www.epm.org/artman2/publish/eternity_questions_answers_about_heaven_book/What_Are_the_New_Jerusalem_s_Dimensions.shtml

Quote from: Gab on November 08, 2009, 03:57:39 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 03:21:50 AM
The 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:

It's been broken for 13 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment), actually. :laughing7:

Not to be snarky or anything, though, but I don't see what people living progressively slightly longer lives on average as civilization progresses has to do with Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and such like.  Aren't people supposed to never die?  Are our incorruptible bodies being phased in slowly, or something?  It seems to me that either we will never die, or we will die, and if we will die, then we haven't really gotten anywhere at all in terms of what some believe we are promised in the Bible.

Yes, that's what I was thinking as well.  When I think of ETERNAL LIFE, I don't think in linear or biological terms - but maybe that's just me.

Anne

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 06:30:12 AM
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.



Is he preparing a body for us?  Is that the promised land?

:cloud9: In my unorthodox opinion  :winkgrin:......YES.....the body is what is being formed in us of Him and thru Him, the glory that will be revealed, the immortality to consume mortality.

Notice it was in the 8th day; that is when they gave the sons their NAME/NATURE after being rubbed with salt. Salt burns, as does fire. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2009, 07:05:05 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 06:30:12 AM
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.



Is he preparing a body for us?  Is that the promised land?

:cloud9: In my unorthodox opinion  :winkgrin:......YES.....the body is what is being formed in us of Him and thru Him, the glory that will be revealed, the immortality to consume mortality.

Notice it was in the 8th day; that is when they gave the sons their NAME/NATURE after being rubbed with salt. Salt burns, as does fire. Blessings...

wow :HeartThrob:  Thank God for you, Cardinal.

We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.




8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.


--Heb 11

 :cloud9: Molly......New heaven = mind of Christ, new earth = glorified body. Blessings...

Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2009, 08:12:30 AM
:cloud9: Molly......New heaven = mind of Christ, new earth = glorified body. Blessings...

Amazing. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 03:21:50 AMThe 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:

Let's just say I'm sceptical. I've read similar things before and then lateron it became clear the age was guestimated beacuse there were no (relaible) birth records. God said 120. But not years :winkgrin: The word year is translated from means something "returns" "revolution" "cycle".

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 06:30:12 AM
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Peronally I think the mansions are bridal chambers.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2009, 09:41:30 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 03:21:50 AMThe 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:

Let's just say I'm sceptical. I've read similar things before and then lateron it became clear the age was guestimated beacuse there were no (relaible) birth records. God said 120. But not years :winkgrin: The word year is translated from means something "returns" "revolution" "cycle".

I don't know about that 128-year-old lady, but it doesn't matter for the purposes of the 120-year boundary - like I said, that was already broken in 1996 by one Jeanne Calment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment), who has indeed been confirmed with certainty to have lived for 122 years and 164 days.

Quote from: Gab on November 08, 2009, 10:01:51 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2009, 09:41:30 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 03:21:50 AMThe 120 year mark is broken, ww... :girlheart:

Let's just say I'm sceptical. I've read similar things before and then lateron it became clear the age was guestimated beacuse there were no (relaible) birth records. God said 120. But not years :winkgrin: The word year is translated from means something "returns" "revolution" "cycle".

I don't know about that 128-year-old lady, but it doesn't matter for the purposes of the 120-year boundary - like I said, that was already broken in 1996 by one Jeanne Calment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment), who has indeed been confirmed with certainty to have lived for 122 years and 164 days.

So it's a trend that started just before the millenium?  Interesting...


Some Day, We May Not Look a Day Over 120
Trend of longer lives will only continue, UC researcher says
David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/09/29/MN48421.DTL&type=printable

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 02:31:40 PM
So it's a trend that started just before the millenium?  Interesting...


Some Day, We May Not Look a Day Over 120
Trend of longer lives will only continue, UC researcher says
David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/09/29/MN48421.DTL&type=printable

I still don't understand what this has to do with anything - living to 120 doesn't make you any closer to immortality than living to 100.  If this is about the statement in Genesis 6:3, I don't exactly know of anything notable that happened to human life expectancy in 1997 or really to humanity in general that wasn't present in 1995... which kinda makes it seem as though breaking the 120-year boundary was basically uneventful all around when all is said and done, except for interest's sake I suppose.

I mean no offense by this, but I can't help but get the sense that you seem to be exclusively interpreting reality through a preconceived set of doctrine you've found from the Bible.  It seems to me that it could not hurt to go in the other direction once in a while.  If what we see in reality is plainly in conflict with what we've read the Bible as saying, then ought we not at least maybe entertain the idea, if only momentarily, that perhaps we read the Bible wrong?

 

Quote from: GabI still don't understand what this has to do with anything - living to 120 doesn't make you any closer to immortality than living to 100.  If this is about the statement in Genesis 6:3, I don't exactly know of anything notable that happened to human life expectancy in 1997 or really to humanity in general that wasn't present in 1995... which kinda makes it seem as though breaking the 120-year boundary was basically uneventful all around when all is said and done, except for interest's sake I suppose.

It comes out of a conversational bantering between ww and I where he said that God had decreed an upper limit lifespan of 120 'years' on man.  It certainly looks that way since the flood, until recently, that is.  But, if you read the whole discussion, you will see that I and others have been quoting and discussing scripture which points to the fulfillment of the third feast, Tabernacles.  That is all that is really relevant here.

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 08:07:32 AM
We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

:cloud9: Think on this. The mansion is a literal cell of His body. That cell is already being prepared for us, in us, which is why He stated He had to go away, because the HG is the one that comes to prepare it.

The Father's house IS Christ; God the Father was IN CHRIST (not the flesh of Him but the Spirit of Him) reconciling all men unto Himself. Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2009, 05:06:23 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 08:07:32 AM
We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

:cloud9: Think on this. The mansion is a literal cell of His body. That cell is already being prepared for us, in us, which is why He stated He had to go away, because the HG is the one that comes to prepare it.

The Father's house IS Christ; God the Father was IN CHRIST (not the flesh of Him but the Spirit of Him) reconciling all men unto Himself. Blessings.....

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 


Jhn 14:2   In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 


Jhn 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 


Jhn 14:4   And where  ever  I go you know, and the way you know
.
  walking in the SPIRIT of Christ /annointing  :HeartThrob:

  awesome exchange    this moring  :cloud9:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2009, 05:06:23 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 08:07:32 AM
We get to move from these humble tents into a

"mansion"

G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

G3306
μένω
menō
men'-o
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

:cloud9: Think on this. The mansion is a literal cell of His body. That cell is already being prepared for us, in us, which is why He stated He had to go away, because the HG is the one that comes to prepare it.

The Father's house IS Christ; God the Father was IN CHRIST (not the flesh of Him but the Spirit of Him) reconciling all men unto Himself. Blessings.....

Yes.  :mshock:  Only the body of Christ could carry the image of the invisible God.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Quote from: roseredJhn 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
:HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: And take what I shared on here once before about the manifestation, and run with it, Molly, now that you see where God is, and tie it in with the 3rd feast.  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2009, 09:59:36 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 06:30:12 AM
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Peronally I think the mansions are bridal chambers.

Yes amen ! I can see that Bro T ,
  you should share   your thoughts on this in more detail !

  :HeartThrob: rose Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride/ True Chruch  is the bridegroom/ Jesus Christ : but the friend of the bridegroom/  the the    law of God , which stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 

Quote from: rosered on November 08, 2009, 05:54:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2009, 09:59:36 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 08, 2009, 06:30:12 AM
Could this--

The eighth day was the great day of this holiday, because then they returned to their own houses again, and remembered how, after they had long dwelt in tents in the wilderness, at length they came to a happy settlement in the land of promise, where they dwelt in goodly houses.

Be related to this?

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Peronally I think the mansions are bridal chambers.

Yes amen ! I can see that Bro T ,
  you should share   your thoughts on this in more detail !

  :HeartThrob: rose Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride/ True Chruch  is the bridegroom/ Jesus Christ : but the friend of the bridegroom/  the the    law of God , which stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 

Who's in the bridal chamber?

The bride AND the groom...

  Hi Molly ,
yes  it is !!,
but  even more so the two shall become ''one flesh''
  for making of the holy ones ''children of the most High''

   WW sharing something with me the other day that was    really good  pertaining to this discussion  ..  of the  Jewish faith
and the customs a pattern of  what  it writtin in the New Testament

  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Molly on November 07, 2009, 04:07:10 PM

Quote from: jenna on November 07, 2009, 03:53:29 PM
Ok, then "Molly". :grin: So you do not believe Christ will return? Exactly how is this belief unscriptural?

Hi Jenna, we are reading this online book that Cardinal gave the link to above.  He is saying [among other things] that the church notion of a 'second coming' of Christ sometime in the hazy future is not only unscriptural but it deceives the church into missing the continual coming of Christ in our lives now, in a variety of forms and ways.  Want to read the book with us?

From Eby--


"It need hardly be said that in the teachings of Jesus and the early apostles the thought of some future coming of His looms rather large. On a careful consideration of their words, however, it soon becomes apparent that they do not always speak of His coming in the same sense. The study of the teachings of the New Testament on this point calls for careful and prayerful and reverent discrimination. The supposition by the teachers and believers in the church systems that every time the scriptures speak of Christ's "coming" they have one particular and singular future event in mind can only lead to confusion and error.

It should be self-evident that Christ's coming as Bridegroom (Mat. 25:1-10) cannot be to the same people, at the same time, in the same manner, nor for the same purpose as His coming as a Refiner's Fire (Mal. 3:1-3). He comes as Bridegroom to His prepared, adorned, and expectant bride in a deeply spiritual relationship of intimate love and vital union, whereas He comes to those apprehended to be His Royal Priesthood in a manifestation of severity - purging and purifying. Both are said to be His COMING. Christ's coming again as the Spirit of Truth (Jn. 14:16-23) and His coming in Flaming Fire of Vengence (II Thes. 1:7-8) are obviously not the same coming; not to the same people, not at the same time, not in the same manner, nor for the same purpose. He came as the blessed Spirit of Truth on the day of Pentecost and has continued to come in that precious way to illuminate mind and heart of every man and woman who seeks Him in sincerity and truth; but He has come and shall yet come in Flaming Fire to deal out retribution - chastisement and vengence - upon those who do not know or perceive or become adquainted with God and upon those who ignore and refuse to obey the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Both of these manifestations are described in scripture as the COMING of the Lord. It is useless to try to fit them both into one singular event destined to transpire within a few moments of time at the conclusion of this age. The Word of God is clear in its teaching that the coming of the Lord is a many-faceted experience, including many manifestations. Truly He came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He shall come; and He shall continue to come!"

Not to be a sore spot, but I find this extremely hard to swallow. You guys are believing the words of one man's "interpretation" of what the bible says, instead of what it actually says. Cardinal! This is just, well I have no proper words.! :drama: :wacko2: :pitiful:  I think you all need a good proverbial :spank:!

 :cloud9: Hi Jenna.....no, actually I'm not. What he wrote is a WITNESS to what the SPIRIT already taught me. And as for one man; hardly. I know dozens of kingdom ministers who have been shown the same. Blessings.....

The last great Feast of the Israelite year was Tabernacles ... and startling as it might seem, this is the Feast that remains to be fulfilled! Tabernacles is called "the Feast of Ingathering, which is in the END OF THE YEAR." Pentecost is only the firstfruits of the Spirit, but Tabernacles is the full harvest - FULLNESS! And this fullness comes in the END of the year, at the completion of our walk with God, and I believe that we have not witnessed such fullness in any save in our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and neither shall we until the very close of this present age, The Feast of Tabernacles could not be celebrated until Israel had left the wilderness behind, and was dwelling in Canaan. Even so, Christ is bringing a great company of apprehended ones, in the END of this age, out of their wilderness wanderings of immaturity, carnality and struggle on into their promised land - the measure of the stature of the FULLNESS OF CHRIST. Oh, yes, God shall surely give unto the elect sons of God the FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD of which we, up until this time, have only received the "earnest" or "firstfruits."

I do not hesitate to say that we are still partaking of the Feast of Pentecost. But I have good news for you. JESUS IS COMING AGAIN! He is coming in the Feast of Tabernacles, and BLESSED are they who are called to this great Feast, that which supersedes Pentecost, that which is the balance of the meal of which Passover and Pentecost were merely the first courses. As we leave this Feast in great strength, those who shall represent the Kingdom of God on this planet from that time forth will be abiding in the fullness of HIS RESURRECTION LIFE. It shall mean a new day of hope and deliverance and glory for the whole earth as the Lord COMES AGAIN to meet man in this great and glorious Feast of HIS FULLNESS. This is the coming of the Lord that the churches and television and radio evangelists know nothing about. The "rapture" crowd doesn't actually believe in the "COMING of the Lord" anyway - they believe in the "GOING of the saints"! While we teach the "APPEARING of Jesus" they teach the "DISAPPEARING of the Church." How much more wonderful and beautiful is the truth! Jesus is COMING! Glory to God!

---J. Preston Eby

A few excerpts from your last post Molly, and a few questions.  Anyone care to tackle?

1)  "...the END OF THE YEAR...very close of this present age"

When?  Soon?  A thousand years?  Does this tie into the scripture "no man knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man comes"?


2)"...JESUS IS COMING AGAIN! He is coming in the Feast of Tabernacles"

How?  What will that look like?  What will people be doing?  [I do believe in His manifesting within us, tabernacling with us, etc., but that that doesn't necessarily rule out His literal appearing at some point, and a literal New Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth as well - that it can't be both.  I wonder if absolute, exclusive adherence to either POV may leave out other realities of His coming(s) and our expierences in that - again, the spiritual AND (at least some) literal]



3)"... BLESSED are they who are called to this great Feast, As we leave this Feast in great strength, those who shall represent the Kingdom of God on this planet from that time forth will be abiding in the fullness of HIS RESURRECTION LIFE. It shall mean a new day of hope and deliverance and glory for the whole earth as the Lord COMES AGAIN to meet man in this great and glorious Feast of HIS FULLNESS."

Who is that?  The "few"?  If so, who are they?  And what will the rest be doing?

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 05:04:35 AM
Oh, yes, God shall surely give unto the elect sons of God the FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD of which we, up until this time, have only received the "earnest" or "firstfruits."

:cloud9: I like it all Molly, but this jumped out at me. This is so awesome and what He has shown me. Christ is the firstfruits; but the FATHER was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Himself. What is coming is GOD THE FATHER in full manifestation IN CHRIST, IN US. Which is why He was able to say, if you've seen ME (perceived thru the Spirit WHO was speaking to them), you've seen the FATHER. Blessings....

Cardinal... since you are posting, do you care to answer my question from earlier then:

Do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves? And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die? (Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)



By the way, who are "kingdom ministers"? Can you name some so I know who you are talking about?

Thanks!

Sparrow, I'm beginning to think maybe all the specific answers  to some of these questions aren't yet fully known.  As I've said, I've read J.Preston for some time, and I still don't know whether or not he CLEARLY explains the things I just asked as well  :dontknow:.  I know he teaches God's people/the Manifest Sons having more power and abilities, but I don't really know what he says people will be SPECIFICALLY doing, what all that will EXACTLY look like.  I wonder if we have some ideas, but still yet, see through that glass darkly, on this topic as well as most/all others?

One thing I've thought about is, it seems the rapture folks put forth some REAL SPECIFIC postulations about the "end times"...you know, the Left Behind stuff, Jack Van Impe, etc....Right or wrong, whether they all agree or not, it does seem they present specific scenarios.  That's one thing I'm interested in from the other POV, like I asked a few posts ago about a "roadmap".  

So again, I think your question above is very connected to my "what does this look like/what will people actually be doing" questions.  If not flown away to heaven or hell, and we're all here on earth doing something, then...?  Maybe it's just not known fully yet and is more of an overview right now :dontknow:.

Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2009, 05:27:09 AM
A few excerpts from your last post Molly, and a few questions.  Anyone care to tackle?

1)  "...the END OF THE YEAR...very close of this present age"

When?  Soon?  A thousand years?  Does this tie into the scripture "no man knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man comes"?

Hi Jab........some thoughts........the end of the year was when the feast of Tabernacles took place. This was the "great feast" that was mentioned that He resisted the disciples telling Him to go with them, and then turned around and it said that He then WENT IN SECRET.

Tabernacles relates to the Holy of Holies, which time wise relates to the 1000 year day, which is the fullness of Christ. It is going behind the veil (in secret, ie. unobservable). This feast and it's conclusion is unto you and the Lord, one on one. We know that this day is after the conclusion of Pentecost. We have had 2 days or 1000 year ages of the Pentecost realm, and we are now in the dawning of the feast of Tabernacles, which IS being celebrated/fulfilled in the Spiritual realms, as was Passover and Pentecost before it.


2)"...JESUS IS COMING AGAIN! He is coming in the Feast of Tabernacles"

How?  What will that look like?  What will people be doing?  [I do believe in His manifesting within us, tabernacling with us, etc., but that that doesn't necessarily rule out His literal appearing at some point, and a literal New Jerusalem, new heaven and new earth as well - that it can't be both.  I wonder if absolute, exclusive adherence to either POV may leave out other realities of His coming(s) and our expierences in that - again, the spiritual AND (at least some) literal]


Again, it's unobservable. It is happening in the firstfruits harvest, between them and their God. The High Priest went in ALONE on the day of atonement. What that will look like to the rest, is as saviors arising on Mt. Zion in the fullness of His power. It's as a dream/vision He gave me of walking down an aisle and seeing a woman in a wheelchair and not laying hands to pray for her, but simply saying "Arise", and she jumped up healed and praising God, via the authority given the sons, over heaven/spirit and earth/flesh.


3)"... BLESSED are they who are called to this great Feast, As we leave this Feast in great strength, those who shall represent the Kingdom of God on this planet from that time forth will be abiding in the fullness of HIS RESURRECTION LIFE. It shall mean a new day of hope and deliverance and glory for the whole earth as the Lord COMES AGAIN to meet man in this great and glorious Feast of HIS FULLNESS."

Who is that?  The "few"?  If so, who are they?  And what will the rest be doing?

Every man in his own order, the same exact thing. First, the firstfruits, then the rest shall come into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Blessings....

OK, thanks Card for the specifics.  You said this is "one on one".  I can see how this could be if folks were living a thousand years or whatever.  But billions have already died.  What happens if in the normal lifespan someone dies before this happens?  What if Bob or Frank, who are true believers and following the Lord closely die at age 70?  The process continues in the next life?  

I figured the "each in his order" had a lot to do with the next age, God's direct presence...so not sure how the Manifest Sons enter in there.  Maybe the others are then resurrected and the Manifest Sons who never died are ministering to them?

Thanks.  :bigGrin:

Quote from: sparrow on November 09, 2009, 05:42:56 AM
Cardinal... since you are posting, do you care to answer my question from earlier then:

Do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves?
Hi Sparrow.......Jesus apparently did. I'm thinking they were probably glorified bodies and they too ascended to their Father as He did. And since He said greater works would we do, it stands to reason, this one and more.

And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die?

Yes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body. I do think God has some surprises planned that no one will know until it happens, because eye has not seen..........ect.

(Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)

He can do anything He wants to. Whether or not it's a literal flesh body He raises up, or a glorified one, it's still a miracle. He raised up Lazarus apparently in his own body, so why it should be any shock that He might do it again, thru a people called by His name, I don't know.

By the way, who are "kingdom ministers"? Can you name some so I know who you are talking about?

I'm talking about people who have been shown truth pertaining to Sonship and Kingdom principles. Des Walters, Gary Sigler, Peter Demetris, Dale Hammond, Kelly Varner, Stacey Wood, Bill Britton, Willie Hinn, Dr. Kay Fairchild, Mark Chironna, Jim Dutton, to name a few. A couple of them are deceased, but their messages live on.

Thanks!

Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2009, 06:15:48 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 09, 2009, 05:42:56 AM
Cardinal... since you are posting, do you care to answer my question from earlier then:

Do you believe the believers who have not physically died will be raising people from graves?
Hi Sparrow.......Jesus apparently did. I'm thinking they were probably glorified bodies and they too ascended to their Father as He did. And since He said greater works would we do, it stands to reason, this one and more.

And will be spreading peace and health etc. to the rest of the world? Meaning, do you believe that God will be working through all of these people, IN THIS WAY, who didn't have to physically die?

Yes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body. I do think God has some surprises planned that no one will know until it happens, because eye has not seen..........ect.

(Because we already know that God works through people NOW in other ways.) But now we are talking about literally RAISING people up out of literal GRAVES, not just "spiritual" graves. But actual coffins being dug up and dead people coming back to life. (or what have you, I'm not sure that is why I'm asking to get clarification.)

He can do anything He wants to. Whether or not it's a literal flesh body He raises up, or a glorified one, it's still a miracle. He raised up Lazarus apparently in his own body, so why it should be any shock that He might do it again, thru a people called by His name, I don't know.

By the way, who are "kingdom ministers"? Can you name some so I know who you are talking about?

I'm talking about people who have been shown truth pertaining to Sonship and Kingdom principles. Des Walters, Gary Sigler, Peter Demetris, Dale Hammond, Kelly Varner, Stacey Wood, Bill Britton, Willie Hinn, Dr. Kay Fairchild, Mark Chironna, Jim Dutton, to name a few. A couple of them are deceased, but their messages live on.

Thanks!

Thank you for clarifying your beliefs!

QuoteYes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body.

You mean many believers who each have a glorified physical body like Jesus' body?
Is that what you mean?

QuoteHe can do anything He wants to. Whether or not it's a literal flesh body He raises up, or a glorified one, it's still a miracle. He raised up Lazarus apparently in his own body, so why it should be any shock that He might do it again, thru a people called by His name, I don't know.

I don't think it's a shock at all that Jesus would do this.  But we are talking about people (on the earth now) who don't expect to die and who expect to raise people from their graves. I'm just asking for clarification on that belief. I'm not arguing against it, just trying to make sure I understand what folks believe. (Martin said something like "bring them to me!" talking about dead people. I think that caused some questions in folks minds as to what the heck he was talking about.)

Again, thank you for the clarification.

Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2009, 06:11:54 AM
OK, thanks Card for the specifics.  You said this is "one on one".  I can see how this could be if folks were living a thousand years or whatever.  But billions have already died.  What happens if in the normal lifespan someone dies before this happens?  What if Bob or Frank, who are true believers and following the Lord closely die at age 70?  The process continues in the next life?  

Hi Jab.......timing, election, and grace come into play here. The Lord has some to give out what they have received, only as a sort of "passing of the baton" to the next to come along, who will receive the Word with faith, and make it a little further in this run to the finish line. Bill Britton comes to mind here. He was shown this stuff in the late 30's or 40's if I recall, yet I believe His last message was, "I go to the Father", and shortly after, he did just that literally.

And I might add the greatest of these is the Apostle Paul who penned all this from the one on one teaching of the Holy Spirit in him, yet KNEW he was born a man out of season for what he had been entrusted with to reveal, because it was not time yet in God's calendar. That must have been especially crushing to see, but like Moses, not be able to walk in it.

I figured the "each in his order" had a lot to do with the next age, God's direct presence...so not sure how the Manifest Sons enter in there.  Maybe the others are then resurrected and the Manifest Sons who never died are ministering to them?

Again, the firstfruits principle applies. He raises up some, like thousands of "Christ's" in power and authority, and the miracles and the words they speak with the drawing of the HG pull in the giant harvest from the right side of the boat. It's a story with a fabulous ending........ALL OF CREATION RESTORED. Blessings....

Thanks.  :bigGrin:

Thanks Card, I think I understand at least most of what you're saying.  :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

Quote from: sparrow on November 09, 2009, 06:25:46 AM

QuoteYes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body.

You mean many believers who each have a glorified physical body like Jesus' body?
Is that what you mean?

:cloud9: Yes, I think that's whats going to happen. I have seen the glorified body within myself. It was as cells of living gold light, is the only way I can describe it, and the cells were moving very fast (quickened by the Spirit). Paul said we would be clothed upon with this immortality. Blessings....

14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

15Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

16For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.


--2 Chron 7

I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Why? Because I am going to the Father. And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father's glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

Does this pertain to what you all are speaking of?  :dontknow:
I am understanding some though.

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 07:06:46 AM
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

15Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.

16For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.


--2 Chron 7

:cloud9: Molly, I love this, this was the perfect passage of scripture to add to this.....some thoughts...........name means nature, who He calls He equips, so called to become His nature.

He spoke to me in church, that the meaning HE means of humble, is to empty ourselves out of all WE THINK WE ARE, to RECEIVE all HE SAYS WE ARE. We've allowed our carnal minds to tell us who we are, we've allowed the carnal minds of others to speak words of death over us telling us who we are, but He wants us to BELIEVE Him about who we are.

Forgive their sin and heal their land..........the wages of sin are death........again; to sin means to miss the mark, the mark is the mind of Christ, the mind of Christ is thinking how God thinks. Christ is the heart of God. He wants to heal our land, ie. make us whole, spirit, soul, and BODY.

When the house of God was sanctified by the priests by the blood, then the presence of the God came into that place and He dwelled among men. Blessings....

I want you all to know this thread is appreciated, I am learning more understanding more. THANKS!

Quote from: SQ on November 09, 2009, 07:09:30 AM
I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Why? Because I am going to the Father. And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father's glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

Does this pertain to what you all are speaking of?  :dontknow:
I am understanding some though.

:cloud9: Yes it does.....He showed me the greater works we would do, was to bring the soul in union with the Spirit. This IS the first resurrection. He prepared the way for it to be done, but it was to come about in season.

Essentially, the High Priest was the pattern for it. He had to "fulfill" the 2 commandments that the 10 hung upon, in that he first had to offer a sacrifice for himself (rightstanding with God) and then he had to offer  up a sacrifice for the people (rightstanding with man).

So because this ties in with the last feast, and God's calendar declared that it would not occur for the body (the Head went ahead 2000 cubits or 2 days) until after the 2 days or 2000 years of Pentecost had been fulfilled.

So these two things that he fulfilled, we fulfill thru Christ in us, spiritually, so that in so doing, our soul is brought into union with the Spirit, just like the pattern of the High Priest walking from the outer court to the inner court, ie. the two brought into union. My soul doth magnify the Lord. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2009, 06:37:34 AM

Quote from: sparrow on November 09, 2009, 06:25:46 AM

QuoteYes, the harvest is of a many membered body that was just like His body.

You mean many believers who each have a glorified physical body like Jesus' body?
Is that what you mean?

:cloud9: Yes, I think that's whats going to happen.

Ok thanks again for the clarification.

Quote from: JabOne thing I've thought about is, it seems the rapture folks put forth some REAL SPECIFIC postulations about the "end times"...you know, the Left Behind stuff, Jack Van Impe, etc....Right or wrong, whether they all agree or not, it does seem they present specific scenarios.  That's one thing I'm interested in from the other POV, like I asked a few posts ago about a "roadmap".  

So again, I think your question above is very connected to my "what does this look like/what will people actually be doing" questions.  If not flown away to heaven or hell, and we're all here on earth doing something, then...?  Maybe it's just not known fully yet and is more of an overview right now .

I think a little patience is required because this is a huge topic, and really, we could talk about it for a long time.  A lot of this teaching comes directly out of the Old Testament where it is illustrated in God's chosen people as they are brought out of Egypt, taken into the wilderness, fed with manna from God, led by God going before them and behind them [the good shepherd], the tabernacle in the wilderness, the Temple of Solomon, the three sided tent of David [again these three show the progression of total salvation, soul, spirit, and body], the details of the priesthood, and so on, ---all of this illustrates the stages we go through, as God creates a people for himself, a royal priesthood--prophet, priest, and king, all of which the Lord Jesus was himself.

It's complicated, in other words.  I think for people like Cardinal, it is just downloaded into her spirit [just my (maybe faulty) observation, Cardinal lol], whereas for people like me, it takes a long road of study and prayer.  I have been looking at these things for years.  I always knew God was going somewhere with his unfolding plan and I wanted to know where and how.  Like you, I wanted the details.  But, it can take time and require patience, although now, like others, I think things are going to start happening very quickly.  We are entering the eighth day.

It also takes a lot of discernment.
Don't rely on other's interpretations and visions.
Because there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know.  :msealed:

Trust in God to show you truth.
Listen to what others have to say...
but ultimately... trust in HIM.
What is truth will remain, what is non-truth will dissipate.
Mankind so quickly leads mankind astray.
But He never will.

Well just some thoughts.
peace.

Quote from: SparrowBecause there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 08:14:24 AM

Quote from: SparrowBecause there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.

It seems a mistake to think our bodies being transfigured like unto His body of glory will happen for everybody all at once (and, not to digress upon here, it is a mistake to think that it is the same thing that happens to all of us, not only what, but how.) The only scripture I've been able to find that has been used to say this actually doesn't when more closely examined. (In a very real sense, I have no personal investment in how all this takes place. How could I care for anything other than seeking to discover what God reveals about it?) "...we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, IN the last trump..." 1 Cor 15:52 1.) "In an instant," or, "moment" (KJV) in Greek is in atomos, meaning "un-cut," or, "without division or separation." This is the only occurence I've yet found in the N.T.

About 300 years earlier, in classical (not Biblical) Greek, Plato used atomos to refer to what we in scientific terminology call the elements. Anything that was purified by "cutting" out everything mixed with it until there was nothing that could be separated from it any more was an element, such as gold, or sulfur, or iron, etc. In modern times we borrowed the term to apply to the similar "atoms" as in an "atomic" bomb. This is one possible meaning of the word here. The change coming is in the very foundation of our physical nature. The "elements" that make up our body, the very "atomic" structures will undergo a metamorphosis into an immortal body with incorruptible life.

Another consideration is provided in the use of the same word, in a positive rather than negative sense, prefixed with "rightly, or, correctly" as orthotomeo in 2 Tim 2:15 "erect-cut," "erect" meaning "upright," or, "'rightly' dividing" in the phrase "correctly cutting the word of truth." The word of the original Greek (as well as Hebrew) were written in a continuous string of letters. They put no divisions between the words. There was no punctuation. To cause the truth to rise one had to correctly cut it. Think of how this change will occur, with "negative-cutting," or, without interruption. Not only an inward peaceful transition, just taking the next step, a step over a threshold in a long journey leading up to it, without which you couldn't get there; but also, considered outwardly, it may imply that this would happen without the world observing a thing. There will be no discontinuity in the change He's talking about! (This bears some similarity to the next phrase to consider.)

An important thing is that this seems to be the only time this word occurs in the N. T. The word used everywhere else in the Scripture for "instantly, or, immediately" is parachrema, not of the same family. The other phrase is: "in the twinkle of an eye." This is r[h]ipe "the upward or downward motion of the eyelid." The change is in a "blink" of an eye; or, more literally it may be "'toss' of an eye," or, "'glance' of an eye," as when one looks from one place to another. Here is no inward disruption but continuity. The change is in looking from one place to another. It is not an indication of a length of time.  We are changed "from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord" as we behold Him.  The presence of the Lord occurs by our being brought into beholding Him in increasing glory.  You tend to believe what you see.  "The Glory" is His manifest presence.

"...Not all of us will sleep in death; but, all of us will be changed into something else, in the very chemical elements and atomic structures of which our physical bodies consist, in looking away into another realm, and in the sound from God's prepared vessel through which His Spirit will blow (what prophetically was a trumpet in the "Feast of Tabernacles" which in reality is) the anointed word of a ministry which will cause those that hear to partake of the change of our vile bodies into a body like unto Jesus' body of glory..." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, explained)

Quote from: sparrow on November 09, 2009, 08:23:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 08:14:24 AM

Quote from: SparrowBecause there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.

Oh, yes, absolutely  I agree with you.  Lean on God and the Spirit of truth for everything.

Discernment, also, is something that we develop over time.

In terms of mentioning ministers or theories or types of beliefs, I usually never bother to read what others think and can never keep the different categories straight, premill, postmill, etc, because it is of no interest to me what others have to say unless that is where God is leading me at the time.  

But, I have to say, when someone [like Eby] says something that you yourself have been mulling over for a long time and you've not seen where anyone else is saying it, it really knocks your socks off.

As Cardinal says, it is a witness to what you already know to be true.

Now should Eby tell me to put on my purple shoes and drink cool-aide because Hale-Bop is coming around again, that would be a different story.  :icon_king:

In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously."  Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"

Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)

From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own."  The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come out of.  Our aim is not some relocation in space or a better hope in death,but a transformation of being through union with God.  It is to have Christ fully formed in us and to fully come into the Image of God. This is not only as individuals, but corporately. "...till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown (finished, perfect) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4:13)

Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12:  "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it."  In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T.  They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination.  Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.

Quote from: Reformer"...Not all of us will sleep in death; but, all of us will be changed into something else, in the very chemical elements and atomic structures of which our physical bodies consist, in looking away into another realm, and in the sound from God's prepared vessel through which His Spirit will blow (what prophetically was a trumpet in the "Feast of Tabernacles" which in reality is) the anointed word of a ministry which will cause those that hear to partake of the change of our vile bodies into a body like unto Jesus' body of glory..." -- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, explained)

Beautiful!

Interesting thoughts to my post Molly, worth more consideration.  Thanks.

I'll look at your posts more tomorrow, James.  I'm goin' to bed.  ('night sparrow  :bigGrin)

A long life or to simply continue alive was mentioned by Jesus. Some then thought He was referring to John.  "Jesus said to Peter, "If I want him to live until I come again, how does that concern you? Follow me!" (John 21:22, AV)  At least 2,000 years would be in view there as is true of Solomon's mention of it.

Ecclesiastes 6:3-6 (AV)...
3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.
5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Faith for a long life or to simply continue living is not the same as faith for the transfiguration of the body. (It seems there might be a better possibility of attaining physical immortality if one lives longer, as long as God was being sought after.)

Hebrews 11:5-6 (AV)...
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The point at which both kinds of faith agree is that the enemy is death and, as Paul says, we are in a race to come to the finish (mature, perfect) line before death.

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 05:04:35 AM
The last great Feast of the Israelite year was Tabernacles ... and startling as it might seem, this is the Feast that remains to be fulfilled! Tabernacles is called "the Feast of Ingathering, which is in the END OF THE YEAR." Pentecost is only the firstfruits of the Spirit, but Tabernacles is the full harvest - FULLNESS!

Actually it's not fullness. The land was never harvested to the last wheat. Not harvesting and then double checking the land for some wheat that fell on the ground. Neither they harvested the corners (not 100% sure of that) That wheat was collected by the very poor and travelers. AFAIK that was a commandment from God. Or just a law of Moses?

Quote from: reFORMer on November 09, 2009, 08:43:36 AM
In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously."  Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"

Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)

From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own."  The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come out of. It is not about a geographical relocation, but a transformation of being through union with God.

Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12:  "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it."  In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T.  They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination.  Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.

This whole post--Yes!!!

Notice also how God is raising the dead in Christ, first--

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

--1Thess 4



"shall be caught up"

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).


G138
αἱρέομαι
aihreomai
hahee-reh'-om-ahee
Probably akin to G142; to take for oneself, that is, to prefer. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate (ἕλλομαι hellomai), which is otherwise obsolete: - choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai, hel-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.


1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2009, 09:06:03 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 05:04:35 AM
The last great Feast of the Israelite year was Tabernacles ... and startling as it might seem, this is the Feast that remains to be fulfilled! Tabernacles is called "the Feast of Ingathering, which is in the END OF THE YEAR." Pentecost is only the firstfruits of the Spirit, but Tabernacles is the full harvest - FULLNESS!

Actually it's not fullness. The land was never harvested to the last wheat. Not harvesting and then double checking the land for some wheat that fell on the ground. Neither they harvested the corners (not 100% sure of that) That wheat was collected by the very poor and travelers. AFAIK that was a commandment from God. Or just a law of Moses?

I think he means fullness in the sense of full maturity or ripeness [of the crop] [as opposed to firstfruits].

But if you link the harvests to the UR message: "All are saved but each in his own order"
It means that after the last message there are still some unsaved wheats/people/souls.....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2009, 01:33:38 AM
:cloud9: Hi Jenna.....no, actually I'm not. What he wrote is a WITNESS to what the SPIRIT already taught me. And as for one man; hardly. I know dozens of kingdom ministers who have been shown the same. Blessings.....

Blessings to you too, Cardinal. I think I'm just going to gracefully bow out of this conversation. But I must make one final comment. I may seem a little blunt and harsh, although I don't mean to. But you may want to seriously consider the nature of the spirit that has taught you this, because it doesn't seem to be a holy one.

(If I offend, that isn't my intention. I don't really know how to get my point across otherwise. I don't believe this belief comes from God.) :sigh:

Quote from: sparrow on November 09, 2009, 08:23:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 08:14:24 AM

Quote from: SparrowBecause there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.

:cloud9: And I actually agree with you Sparrow........which is why I closed myself off with God and a Bible for 2 years of 12-16 even 18 hours a day of study in the original languages, and asked His Spirit to teach me and NOT MAN, the first 2 years of my walk, It was only AFTER He had shown me these truths that I found out He had shown others.

I didn't know who to believe either, but when I read His Spirit would teach you, I stood on that scripture, not even knowing at the time, if any of the Bible was true, save the one about salvation I had already experienced. Experience is the key. We EXPERIENCE the Spirit in many ways, and that is something no man can ever change your mind about, or feed you another doctrine about, because what HE makes life in you, no man can take away. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: reFORMer on November 09, 2009, 08:43:36 AM
In 1 Thes 4:17, for KJV "caught up together" it is harpazo hama meaning "possessed together" or "siezed simultaneously."  Often the translators add words like "up" or "away," as in, "caught UP," or, "snatched AWAY," misleading words that are definitely NOT in the original language. Harpazo simply means to "to seize (as ones own.)"

Paul was "harpazo-ed," or, "possessed" by the Holy Spirit into the 3rd heaven and also entered Paradise (which may not be the same thing) while still alive, though he didn't know if the experience was as a spirit out of the body or if he was in his body, clearly meaning that it could happen either way. (While the phrase "go to heaven" is not in the Bible, this is the only place I know of where the idea occurs, though it is different than what is usually meant.)

From baptizing the Eunuch, an authority in the Ethiopian Court, Phillip was "harpazo-ed" or, "taken possession of" by God and was transported 3 days journey to Azotes, showing time and space can be superseded by us when God "seizes us as His own."  The raised dead first, then we that are alive and remain (that have not already entered into immortality) shall be "harpazo-ed" together with the Lord in the clouds, not to come back later, but, "So shall we ever be with the Lord" because what we enter into, immortality, we shall never come out of.  Our aim is not some relocation in space or a better hope in death,but a transformation of being through union with God.  It is to have Christ fully formed in us and to fully come into the Image of God. This is not only as individuals, but corporately. "...till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown (finished, perfect) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4:13)

Concerning the only place in the N.T. where harpazo is done by men rather than God, William Hendriksen in his New Testament Commentary, Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew translates Mt 11:12:  "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom is pressing forward vigorously, and vigorous men are eagerly taking possession of it."  In Greek, the kind of men here is another word that occurs nowhere else in the N.T.  They are vigorous and "forceful men," men of courage, fortitude and determination.  Here, rather than God seizing us, courageous and determined men eagerly "harpazo" the kingdom of God.

:cloud9: Love all your posts, ReFORMer.......I was harpazo'ed of the Lord once and went ahead in time two days to do something, He had told me that day to do that was a pivotal thing in my life. I prayed to loose my Spirit to go forth and do the perfect will of my Father beforehand, because the flesh of me was having some issues with it (doesn't it always?).

I didn't know He was going to do that LITERALLY. I guess it was a case of whatsover thing you ask in my name, it shall be done for you of my Father which is in heaven.

I was aware of my body, aware it was Friday and not Wednesday, but that was about it. I spoke what had been given me and that was that........Blessings.....

Quote from: jenna on November 09, 2009, 12:56:34 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2009, 01:33:38 AM
:cloud9: Hi Jenna.....no, actually I'm not. What he wrote is a WITNESS to what the SPIRIT already taught me. And as for one man; hardly. I know dozens of kingdom ministers who have been shown the same. Blessings.....

Blessings to you too, Cardinal. I think I'm just going to gracefully bow out of this conversation. But I must make one final comment. I may seem a little blunt and harsh, although I don't mean to. But you may want to seriously consider the nature of the spirit that has taught you this, because it doesn't seem to be a holy one.

(If I offend, that isn't my intention. I don't really know how to get my point across otherwise. I don't believe this belief comes from God.) :sigh:

:cloud9: Thank you for what I KNOW is your well-meaning concern, Jenna.  :girlheart:

I will use a standard answer He gave me years ago, to illustrate my point.

When they told me there was no such thing as being saved, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

When they told me there was no such thing as the baptism in the Spirit, I replied, too late, I've already experienced truth!

When they told me there was no such thing as the gifts of the Spirit for TODAY, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

When they told me the Spirit would not teach me, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

When they told me He does not heal the body today, I replied, too late, I've already experienced the truth!

And I could go on and on and on, about all the errors men have tried to feed me over the years. But the same Spirit that taught me is the same Spirit that healed me of cancer, crushed elbow, 4 ruptured discs with accompanying paralysis, lung damage, ect. If I had listened, I literally would not be here.

The bottom line is men have taught us to keep cattle (works and doctrines tied to the flesh realm) from our youth, but the Spirit teaches us how to "slay" them and put them on the altar to be consumed by the fire. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2009, 02:42:01 PM

Quote from: sparrow on November 09, 2009, 08:23:54 AM

Quote from: Molly on November 09, 2009, 08:14:24 AM

Quote from: SparrowBecause there are plenty of ministers who share their visions, and I tell you one thing, I don't know who the vision came from, but it certainly isn't from the God that I know. 

What 'vision' are you referring to, Sparrow?

No vision in particular. Ministers/preachers, etc. who have visions and then share them saying they are from God. There are plenty of ministers who have their flock hanging on every word they say because they think their Minister has some sort of power or annointing that they don't. Cardinal listed some "kingdom ministers". It reminded me of the fact that we all need to have discernment and not blindly listen to man without questioning. But instead listen to and lean on  God. I'm not saying people don't have visions. I'm saying have discernment and don't just accept what someone has to say just because they say something is from God or God told them this and that. Don't just automatically accept it. Lots of stuff people say is from God and it isn't at all.

Discernment is key.
That's the point I'm trying to make.


peace.

:cloud9: And I actually agree with you Sparrow........which is why I closed myself off with God and a Bible for 2 years of 12-16 even 18 hours a day of study in the original languages, and asked His Spirit to teach me and NOT MAN, the first 2 years of my walk, It was only AFTER He had shown me these truths that I found out He had shown others.

I didn't know who to believe either, but when I read His Spirit would teach you, I stood on that scripture, not even knowing at the time, if any of the Bible was true, save the one about salvation I had already experienced. Experience is the key. We EXPERIENCE the Spirit in many ways, and that is something no man can ever change your mind about, or feed you another doctrine about, because what HE makes life in you, no man can take away. My  :2c: Blessings....

Cardinal...   That is fine that you say you locked yourself up for most of the day for 2 years and studied, and asked His spirit to teach you. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to accept your truth as my truth.  A person could lock theirself up for 10 years/24 hours a day and still not get to truth. Many people say the very same things and yet they espouse very wrong ideas about God.


I know that we "experience" the spirit in many ways. I've shared some of my own personal things from time to time. But I don't expect people to just take my word for it that it was from God. I expect people to ponder and discern for theirselves.

I don't doubt that you feel you have truth. Cardinal, perhaps you do. Perhaps you don't.
I'm just making a point that no matter WHAT a person says, don't just follow blindly. No matter how fantastic a vision may seem, or what this person tells you they did to GET to truth, use your OWN discernment by leaning on God and going to HIM about it. Pray, humble yourself before Him and rely on HIM to bring you to truth in His own timing and in His own way.

There are a lot of folks out there who could be reading this discussion who may not realize this very important issue. I think it's a good reminder. Because like I said, man leads man astray all the day long. But HE never will.

Peace.

 :cloud9: Amen Sparrow.......which is why I say we should, ALL, PRESS IN, for He IS the Spirit of Truth. Blessings...

Sparrow and all other Spiriteers,

I agree with your last post. But how can anyone ever know the had contact with the HS and not a decieving spirit?
Perhaps it's a bit like NDEs then people advise to check it against scripture. Fine but with so many denominations it looks like everyone read the scripture differently. Satan is a very smart spirit. He doesn't wear a "I'm a liar" badge but a "I'm the HS badge"
Plus the way I see it those viosion also have info that's not in the Bible. So it can't be checked against the Bible.
:dontknow:

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2009, 07:31:17 PM
Sparrow and all other Spiriteers,

I agree with your last post. But how can anyone ever know the had contact with the HS and not a decieving spirit?
Perhaps it's a bit like NDEs then people advise to check it against scripture. Fine but with so many denominations it looks like everyone read the scripture differently. Satan is a very smart spirit. He doesn't wear a "I'm a liar" badge but a "I'm the HS badge"
Plus the way I see it those viosion also have info that's not in the Bible. So it can't be checked against the Bible.
:dontknow:

Great question, WW.
Just to warn you, I'm kind of thinking out loud here, so if my thoughts seem a bit unorganized please forgive me, bro.

I think about that verse Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I think that there will be those who are decieved and those who are not. But I think it's all in God's plan. I see the elect as NOT being decieved. Who are the elect? The people who ended up not being decieved for whatever reason. Whoever this "elect" are, God has made them the elect for a reason. Some claim to be the "elect". But how can they know for sure? I believe only God knows the answer.  :dontknow: Perhaps someone can give proof that folks can know. I haven't researched it all the way. I just see this verse of the elect being decieved "IF it were possible" and think that the elect don't know who they are. Because if they knew who they were, then that verse wouldn't have the same effect. Push on and run this race.... but I tend to believe only God knows who His various groups of people are. God has his reasons for selecting certain people. Afterall, look at his disciples. It's all happening to teach us ALL. All will benefit from God's master plan.

The UR view perfectly puts this into the right perspective, while the ET view makes God look totally evil, choosing certain people to show truth to, and some to remain in darknesss and end up some of His children being annihilated or tortured for all eternity! Sheesh what a sicko God! The UR view makes all of that make perfect sense! We are all His children. We don't all have the same role. That's ok. If I end up being one of the decieved**... y'know what? THAT IS OK! because I know God used me for a specific reason. Every life lived will serve a purpose. Every life lived is a thread in His tapestry that He is weaving. This tapestry will be for OUR benefit. All of us. We are learning while we are here on earth, and when we see the BIG PICTURE, we will REALLY learn. But... still... push on, finish the race! Do the best that you can do to find truth and align with God's spirit. Some might say "well if I don't know if I'm being decieved or not, what is the point!!! What's the point in trying to learn??!" No! Don't think that way! PUSH ON! FINISH THE RACE! Seek! A lot of people are decieved because they allow themselves to be decieved. They aren't leaning into Him, they are leaning into theirself! Push on! Finish the race. Perhaps you may be surprised in the end, over just how much truth He ended up giving you in your life. Push on.


I believe that God is love. He tells us that He is love. The fruits of the spirit:
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
I think taking things and measuring them against the yardstick of love is key.
(1 corinthians 13 is helpful.) I also think that getting down to the foundation of a set of beliefs and tearing it apart and examining it, where did it come from, what is it's purpose? And taking it all and measuring that against love, measuring against who God says He is (love) are things we should all be doing. Measuring things in this way may not seem so involved, until you really start to break it down and look at it. What is the core?

Take for instance, prosperity preachers. What are they promoting?? Materialism and GREED. Break down their beliefs to the foundation, and what do you have? A bunch of godly sounding words, theatrics, and cheerleading pumping up carnal man's lust for wealth. Forsaking the spiritual needs of their flock for earthly riches. Pushing aside the real message of Christ for a few gold coins. Look at how many followers they have. So many. Sowing the seeds of greed instead of sowing the seeds of love. And funny how so many of them have these fantastic tales, visions, supernatural experiences that somehow "prove" that God is more worried about their bank accounts than He is the state of their hearts. Sure there's some other nice sounding stuff thrown in, but then it's right back to "give and you will get!". You gotta have discernment. Listen to the voice within... who are these people talking to? Your carnal man or your spiritual man??

Going to God and praying for guidance. Listening for His voice, and pushing away your own voice. Listening to your gut. There are things that tickle the ears of your carnal man, and there are things that align with your spirit. Learning to discern is a process. Perhaps it's not the same for everyone. The more you lean into love and lean away from non-love, the more you develop discernment, in my opinion.

Some teachings are very easy to discern, some things you know right away, this is NOT RIGHT!
Other things are a little more convoluted and it takes awhile to get to the foundation of what the belief is. Then there are still OTHER things that are just... who the heck KNOWS what folks are talking about? Sometimes, you just have to let it go. Walk away.

In my own personal experience, God leaves breadcrumbs here and there. When the breadcrumbs are seemingly all over the place about something, and my heart and spirit feel totally alive and full of love and just all worries and fears completely dissapear and the love in my heart for Him, for my neighbor and for ALL creation just totally explodes...and I fade more into the background and the concern over others comes to the forefront then I feel that I am being led by HIM. and NOT by my own carnal self. If all these things are happening, THEN I feel I am being led by HIM.

Well, I don't feel I worded that all very well. But hopefully it made sense.
I don't like to be confusing.
These are my thoughts right now. Perhaps they will change later on down the line.
But this is where I am now.



** - disclaimer... I'm not talking about MAIN issues such as UR! I'm talking about being decieved about the lesser things. Just want to make that clear. I would absolutely gladly give up my life over the view that Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL mankind and that not even one will be lost.

He has come in the foretaste of His omnipotence, working all through this present age in the hearts of the remnant, gathering out of each generation A FIRSTFRUITS, until the times of restitution. Then He shall be released, breaking forth in visible manifestation of the fullness of His nature, power and being, to begin the great work of restoring ALL THINGS back into God. How we yearn for that fullness! How our souls pant after Him! How we groan within ourselves, waiting for the glory that shall be revealed! He shall not remain forever withholden in the invisible sphere, but we shall RECEIVE OUT FROM the heavens, for He shall come to us, and in us, and out of the invisible shall proceed the visible manifestation, as the prophet foretold, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and HIS GLORY SHALL BE S-E-E-N_U-P-O-N_T-H-E-E. And the nations shall come to THY LIGHT, and kings to the brightness of thy rising" (Isa. 60:1-3).

Christ is not coming to evacuate His poor, discouraged, bedraggled, defeated Church to some distant planet to escape the ravages of the antichrist. HE, the Head of the Church, is coming in power and victory to His body, to assume the Headship and Lordship over the Church. When He was on earth He said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have their nests; but the Son of man hath no place to lay His head." I can assure you, beloved, that Jesus was not in the least concerned about a place to sleep at night! He was the Head, and He was perfect. But there was not a perfect body imbued with all the fullness of divine life, ready for His Lordship. There was no place prepared for His Lordship to rest, no body to put His Headship upon so that creation would see the completed Christ, Head and body, in the glory and dominion of perfection. So the Holy Spirit has been perfecting that body. He has been producing sonship. He has been making a place for the Son of man to PUT HIS HEAD.

--J. Preston Eby

Quote from: Molly on November 10, 2009, 06:27:48 AM

Still trying to understand/clarify some things.  Wouldn't it be cool if J. Preston would come on TM for awhile and answer some of these questions?  In the meantime, these are a couple of things I wondered about when I read this.  

"He has come in the foretaste of His omnipotence, working all through this present age in the hearts of the remnant, gathering out of each generation A FIRSTFRUITS, until the times of restitution. Then He shall be released"

Those referenced as firstfruits from other generations have died a physical death.  How will they play their part if there's a group either now or in future generations that won't die, but will live 1,000+ years and/or take on immortality without either a) first tasting death themselves and being resurrected or b) alive at Christ's literal, physical return?  How will those from previous generations participate without resurrection?  Or maybe they will be resurrected to participate.  Thoughts on this?

"HE, the Head of the Church, is coming in power and victory to His body, to assume the Headship and Lordship over the Church. creation would see the completed Christ, Head and body, in the glory and dominion of perfection. So the Holy Spirit has been perfecting that body. He has been producing sonship. He has been making a place for the Son of man to PUT HIS HEAD."

If Jesus isn't literally present at some point, wouldn't we just see the body and not the Head?  Maybe the Head displayed THROUGH the body   :scratchhead:

Brother Eby, where are you?   :bigGrin:

Quote from: sparrow on November 10, 2009, 05:38:28 AM
Well, I don't feel I worded that all very well. But hopefully it made sense.

I think you worded it well, some things to think about, for sure.  I think we need to be constantly examining ourselves - did Paul talk about judging ourselves so we won't be judged, or something similar? 

I wonder if we got about 10 good, solid questions together as a group, if Brother Eby would respond to an honest request regarding his writings?  I think he might, as long as they were sincere, respectful, and relevant.  Hmmmm....

Quote from: JabThose referenced as firstfruits from other generations have died a physical death.  How will they play their part if there's a group either now or in future generations that won't die, but will live 1,000+ years and/or take on immortality without either a) first tasting death themselves and being resurrected or b) alive at Christ's literal, physical return?  How will those from previous generations participate without resurrection?  Or maybe they'll be resurrected.  Thoughts on this?

Wouldn't this apply to that?

14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

--1 Thess 4

QuoteIf Jesus isn't literally present at some point, wouldn't we just see the body and not the Head?  Maybe the Head displayed THROUGH the body  

Isn't the head the mind of Christ?

I was thinking about Revelation, tonight.  John doesn't actually see Jesus, does he?  He sees 'one like unto to the Son of man.'  I've always thought that might be the corporate sonship he was seeing.  Otherwise, why would he put it that way?




10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

--Rev 1

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 09, 2009, 07:31:17 PM
Sparrow and all other Spiriteers,

I agree with your last post. But how can anyone ever know the had contact with the HS and not a decieving spirit?
Perhaps it's a bit like NDEs then people advise to check it against scripture. Fine but with so many denominations it looks like everyone read the scripture differently. Satan is a very smart spirit. He doesn't wear a "I'm a liar" badge but a "I'm the HS badge"
Plus the way I see it those viosion also have info that's not in the Bible. So it can't be checked against the Bible.
:dontknow:

:cloud9: You test the spirits and this is how. On the day of Pentecost, the men filled with the HG spoke about the marvelous works of God among men.

Principle: the spirit always exalts the one that sent it. It was said in Acts 2 by Peter that whom they crucified, shed forth this they both saw and heard.

So He sent it as He said He would, ie. the Comforter, who then exalted the One who sent it. The Spirit of God always exalts Christ who sent It. And by exalt, that doesn't only mean to lift up in praise, but to show forth His works, His patterns in the Word that point to Him, ect. Blessings....

Well Mol, I would think 1 Thess 4 addresses that, but I think I'm somewhere in the middle of some "orthodox" POVs along with newer revelations.  Sounds to me like this is describing Jesus' literal appearing which yes, could explain it to me.  But as I understand, some have been saying that won't occur (not positive if you personally think that or not).  :dontknow:

On the second part, I'm just not sure.  I don't really know what that means, "like unto the Son of Man".  My tendency is to think maybe he either wasn't positive, or could hardly believe it.  I'm not sure, you may be right.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 10, 2009, 07:02:32 AM
... the spirit exalts the one that sent it. It was said in Acts 2 by Peter that whom they crucified, shed forth this they both saw and heard.

So He sent it as He said He would, ie. the Comforter, who then exalted the One who sent it. The Spirit of God always exalts Christ who sent It. And by exalt, that doesn't only mean to lift up in praise, but to show forth His works, His patterns in the Word that point to Him, ect. Blessings....

Amen!  :2thumbs:

Take for instance, prosperity preachers. What are they promoting?? Materialism and GREED. Break down their beliefs to the foundation, and what do you have? A bunch of godly sounding words, theatrics, and cheerleading pumping up carnal man's lust for wealth. Forsaking the spiritual needs of their flock for earthly riches. Pushing aside the real message of Christ for a few gold coins. Look at how many followers they have. So many. Sowing the seeds of greed instead of sowing the seeds of love. And funny how so many of them have these fantastic tales, visions, supernatural experiences that somehow "prove" that God is more worried about their bank accounts than He is the state of their hearts. Sure there's some other nice sounding stuff thrown in, but then it's right back to "give and you will get!".

You gotta have discernment. Listen to the voice within... who are these people talking to? Your carnal man or your spiritual man??
Going to God and praying for guidance. Listening for His voice, and pushing away your own voice. Listening to your gut. There are things that tickle the ears of your carnal man, and there are things that align with your spirit. Learning to discern is a process. Perhaps it's not the same for everyone. The more you lean into love and lean away from non-love, the more you develop discernment, in my opinion.

Exactly, Sparrow -

Some of the things that seem like a no-brainer (the lies of the health and wealth gospel), and yet the numbers of followers they have are quite incredible.   And to think there are millions of people who consider themselves good Christian folk who listen to men like Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh on talk radio -- it is just astonishing!   I guess I just find it mind-boggling that people are that insincere or hard-hearted or whatever the problem is - but they have to be, otherwise they'd not put up with such teachers.  And it just so happens that my son's best friend has recently joined a Word/Faith type of church and I have allowed my son to go there with him a few times, but I really don't want him going there.  My husband explained to him the problems with their theology and said we should let our son visit wherever he wants.  But something inside me is screaming NO!  Don't allow him to listen to such teachings!  My son (nearly age 15) tells me he 'knows' that all the churches have wrong teachings and that he can sort it out. 
What do you think?  Should I dictate where my children can visit in the way of churches?  I don't attend any church ever.   In recent years, my son and my youngest daughter were involved in a Methodist Youth group, which did not really worry me because Methodists are very mild and tolerant in general.

Thanks for reminding me to worry, Sparrow!  :sigh:

Anne

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 10, 2009, 08:16:03 AM
What do you think?  Should I dictate where my children can visit in the way of churches?  I don't attend any church ever.   In recent years, my son and my youngest daughter were involved in a Methodist Youth group, which did not really worry me because Methodists are very mild and tolerant in general.

Thanks for reminding me to worry, Sparrow!  :sigh:

Anne

There was a quote that I quite liked, but can't for the life of me seem to find - but it went something like this:

"Lies need constant shielding in order to survive.  Truth needs no such help."

I tend to be rather permissive in my philosophy towards kids - they can be exceptionally resourceful, and generally speaking, the more you try to keep them away from something, the more psychologically tantalizing it becomes, and the more they will wonder just what it's all about.  I have found that the best way to deal with a lie is simply through the truth: allow the person to hear what the other person is saying, give them your own personal thoughts on the matter, and then let them figure things out.  If they end up believing the other person, then there was probably nothing you could have done to prevent that anyway, as one way or another the person was bound to hear about it at some point in time.  The bottom line for me is that a faith based purely on ignorance of the alternative can scarcely be called a faith at all.

Y'know what Anne, this is just my opinion but I think you are doing the right thing by allowing your kids freedom to seek out and experience things. I tend to believe that if someone is working on developing a good foundation, the more beliefs you encounter, the better. Perhaps having a good discussion afterwards will open up the lines of communication and help your kids learn how to have discernment. What lucky kids they are that have a mom who would allow their kids to discover and find things on their own. But who is also helping to guide them and keep them on a good path. Seems like a lot of opportunities for discussion to me! and that's a good thing.

Quote from: Gab on November 10, 2009, 08:28:45 AM

Quote from: Raggedy Anne on November 10, 2009, 08:16:03 AM
What do you think?  Should I dictate where my children can visit in the way of churches?  I don't attend any church ever.   In recent years, my son and my youngest daughter were involved in a Methodist Youth group, which did not really worry me because Methodists are very mild and tolerant in general.

Thanks for reminding me to worry, Sparrow!  :sigh:

Anne

There was a quote that I quite liked, but can't for the life of me seem to find - but it went something like this:

"Lies need constant shielding in order to survive.  Truth needs no such help."

I tend to be rather permissive in my philosophy towards kids - they can be exceptionally resourceful, and generally speaking, the more you try to keep them away from something, the more psychologically tantalizing it becomes, and the more they will wonder just what it's all about.  I have found that the best way to deal with a lie is simply through the truth: allow the person to hear what the other person is saying, give them your own personal thoughts on the matter, and then let them figure things out.  If they end up believing the other person, then there was probably nothing you could have done to prevent that anyway, as one way or another the person was bound to hear about it at some point in time.  The bottom line for me is that a faith based purely on ignorance of the alternative can scarcely be called a faith at all.

Amen! You hit the nail on the head.

Sparrow,

Something about your post #220...

"Elect" is an English transliteration for the Greek eklekton meaning "chosen." Sometimes God gives a reason for it as in the case of Abraham.  He said He chose Abraham because He knew Abraham would teach so as to obey whatever God said to him to his children and grandchildren and so on, unto many generations.  For Jacob and Esau God says He chose Jacob and hated Esau before they had done anything good or bad in order to make His "Choosing" known.

You were concerned about a sense of fairness being violated if it meant some were "saved" by God choosing them and others lost because He didn't and that knowing it in the context of universal salvation resolved the problem.  It does mostly seem that it is not so much ultimate salvation that is in view when we consider God's choosing some and rejecting others.  Rather, it involves His role as the potter to create special vessels to be of service to affect humanity in His overall plan, some even chosen to be leaders in evil.

The point I wanted to make is that if anybody gets "there" ahead of anybody else, it is only to bring the rest in.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 10, 2009, 09:33:29 AM
Sparrow,

Something about your post #220...

"Elect" is an English transliteration for the Greek eklekton meaning "chosen." Sometimes God gives a reason for it as in the case of Abraham.  He said He chose Abraham because He knew Abraham would teach so as to obey whatever God said to him to his children and grandchildren and so on, unto many generations.  For Jacob and Esau God says He chose Jacob and hated Esau before they had done anything good or bad in order to make His "Choosing" known.

You were concerned about a sense of fairness being violated if it meant some were "saved" by God choosing them and others lost because He didn't and that knowing it in the context of universal salvation resolved the problem.  It does mostly seem that it is not so much ultimate salvation that is in view when we consider God's choosing some and rejecting others.  Rather, it involves His role as the potter to create special vessels to be of service to affect humanity in His overall plan, some even chosen to be leaders in evil.

The point I wanted to make is that if anybody gets "there" ahead of anybody else, it is only to bring the rest in.

I think you may have repeated what I just said.
But I'm not sure.  :happygrin: 

About God choosing some to be leaders in evil.
I'm not so sure about that. That leads into the whole "free will" discussion though, which is kind of off-limits around here. (understandably so.)

Peace, brother..  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sparrow on November 10, 2009, 05:38:28 AM
I think that there will be those who are decieved and those who are not. But I think it's all in God's plan. I see the elect as NOT being decieved. Who are the elect? The people who ended up not being decieved for whatever reason.

More precise. Not anymore. (my understanding)

QuoteWhoever this "elect" are, God has made them the elect for a reason. Some claim to be the "elect". But how can they know for sure? I believe only God knows the answer.

So basicly you find out after death.

Quote:dontknow: Perhaps someone can give proof that folks can know. I haven't researched it all the way. I just see this verse of the elect being decieved "IF it were possible" and think that the elect don't know who they are. Because if they knew who they were, then that verse wouldn't have the same effect. Push on and run this race.... but I tend to believe only God knows who His various groups of people are. God has his reasons for selecting certain people. Afterall, look at his disciples. It's all happening to teach us ALL. All will benefit from God's master plan.

Could be wrong but I think Ray Smith teaches the saints can eb deceived. The elect not. But many/all elect once were deceived (left their first love)and saw their house crashing down. Gotta look it up tonite.

QuoteI believe that God is love. He tells us that He is love. The fruits of the spirit:
Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
I think taking things and measuring them against the yardstick of love is key.

And you can bet satan is poluting that yardstick.

QuoteGoing to God and praying for guidance. Listening for His voice, and pushing away your own voice. Listening to your gut. There are things that tickle the ears of your carnal man, and there are things that align with your spirit. Learning to discern is a process. Perhaps it's not the same for everyone. The more you lean into love and lean away from non-love, the more you develop discernment, in my opinion.

You are not gonna like this Sparrow.... how do you know you received your training from the Spirit of Light and not from the dark one?
"....but Lord we prophesised in Your Name..."

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 10, 2009, 10:10:33 AM
You are not gonna like this Sparrow.... how do you know you received your training from the Spirit of Light and not from the dark one?
"....but Lord we prophesised in Your Name..."

Because going to back to what I was saying before, if it makes me love others, if it pushes others to the forefront. If it makes love blossom more fully in my heart towards God, towards my neighbor (which is all mankind) and towards His creation.

"Lord we prophesised in Your name..."

Yes... what name again?
God?
Who is God?
God is love.

There are many people who are decieved regarding the very character of God.
There are many who proclaim to be doing the works of God, yet they defame the very character of God by the things they preach about Him. That God is a monster who would torture human beings.
I believe this is what is being referred to when it is said "Depart from me, I never knew you..."
People who think they KNOW God, yet they have very dark hearts who have little love for their neighbor. They have a wall around their heart.


Like I said, the main core issue, the character of God, I know I am not decieved.
Because of the amazing love He has conjured up in my heart.
By the very fact that He has brought me through things such as having love for my enemies.
Forgiveness for those that hurt me and my loved ones. and allowing me to see them not through the eyes of carnal anger, carnal unforgiveness, but through His eyes of love and forgiveness and mercy. This was no easy feat. This was no minor hurdle.

Quote from: sparrow on November 10, 2009, 10:24:30 AM
"Lord we prophesised in Your name..."

Yes... what name again?

A name that, weirdly enough, is barely mentioned in the Bible...

WW, on one had I agree with you that we can basically never know with absolute certainty that what we are doing is the will of God and that we have not been deceived (we can fool ourselves into a sense of certainty, but that's rather different).  But, on the other hand, it is obviously impossible for us to do the will of God if we do nothing out of perpetual paralyzing fear that we might be in error.  True absolute certainty is basically unobtainable in practice - I don't even know that the sun will come up in the morning, but I nonetheless manage to function in life, because I accept that I might later learn that I have been wrong about something, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

At a certain point, I think that we just have to accept that we can only do what we can do, and that we can do nothing more - and that if we find we were in error, then God will correct us in the end.  If I have been deceived, then so be it - that possibility ought not stop me from earnestly trying to interact with sincere love with everyone I meet.

Gab... I think we see it pretty much the same way.
Especially your last sentence.

Quote from: sparrow on November 10, 2009, 10:34:55 AM
Gab... I think we see it pretty much the same way.
Especially your last sentence.

Yep - but I figure it never hurts to add a voice of agreement into the mix. :wink2:

  good thoughts guys ,
  Gab , your blessing  !!   your so right on that , scriptures says we deceive our'' own hearts''

  none  to blame  that on !  if we simply   hear and do  as the Lord's holy command  in His   Word teaches us   , to love , help and put others needs  above our own , to me the fatherless   in the literal sense is easy  to understand  , the fatherlless  in the spiritual sense is  those who have not   a father  figure as Paul said he had become   mature to teach / preach and comfort those  lost ones on the way ,  sharing  Gods word  though  the Holy Spirit's prompting  , so the  to would be adopted/ joined /  reborn /acess   into  to the heavenly Father  :icon_flower:
  same as the widows   / the helpless losing husband  / by law,     that support 
and need ,  many that come out of Babylon  ,  need this  support and  new 
  union  to Christ same as the little children .

Jam 1:22   But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 
Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridles not his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this,

To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
  says no man can bridle the tongue  , only the Lord  Jesus Christ can do this work !
  there is alot more  to it , but  I cannot go into that right now .. :bigGrin:

  :HeartThrob: rose

In all these types and previews we can see a glorious picture of the Latter Days. A time of harvest is coming, a great outpouring of blessing and love and power and glory will be upon the saints. Not an outpouring from heaven, but an out-pouring from the innermost being of God's matured ones, His HARVEST COMPANY, as mighty Niagaras of Living Water gush forth, a tremendous outflowing from the very Fountain-Head of the Rivet of God which will send streams of salvation into all the world. It will be a time of deliverance and blessing and transformation such as we have never known. God will "tabernacle" with His people in a new and glorious way, and will be manifested in their midst with such power that the whole world will know it. He will make a great Feast, and all who respond to the invitation will be welcome at His table. The latter-day Harvest of Ingathering will be reaped from the entire world. All nations will participate in His Feast of Tabernacles. The mountain of the Lord's house shall be exalted above every other mountain.

"The redeemed of the Lord shall return and come with singing unto Zion" (Isa. 51:11). Joel, Micah, Isaiah, Zechariah, the Psalms, and other prophecies have given us the picture of the glory of the Latter House and of the fruitful Latter Day. "Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among the heathen, The Lord hath done great things for them ... He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing His sheaves with him" (Ps. 126). "Let the people praise Thee, O God; let ALL the people praise Thee. O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for Thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon. earth. Selah. Let the people praise Thee, O God, let ALL the people praise Thee. Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God shall bless us. God shall bless us; AND ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH SHALL FEAR HIM" (Ps. 67:3-7).

--J. Preston Eby

Quote from: Gab on November 10, 2009, 10:32:27 AM
WW, on one had I agree with you that we can basically never know with absolute certainty that what we are doing is the will of God and that we have not been deceived (we can fool ourselves into a sense of certainty, but that's rather different).  But, on the other hand, it is obviously impossible for us to do the will of God if we do nothing out of perpetual paralyzing fear that we might be in error.

I think doing nothing is an error too...

QuoteTrue absolute certainty is basically unobtainable in practice - I don't even know that the sun will come up in the morning, but I nonetheless manage to function in life, because I accept that I might later learn that I have been wrong about something, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

I never even tried to suggest we ca get any certainty of anything.That's just my point. All accept that the majority will be deceived (or doesn't even try to find God)
But the majority of the believers claim they are on the right track. And (almost?) all believers that have contact with a spirit assume 'their spirt' is the HS and not a lying spirit. Often they have some proof to backup their claim to me.
God speaks/warns about a 'strong delusion'. Isn't the whole idea of a delusion it looks some extremely real. Especially if it's a strong one. (=(near) perfect. Finding proof to back things up can be part of the delusion.
It's a variation of the 'pointing finger' They are wrong/evil/fallen away/deceived/etc.
"I" is always the the 2% group of perfection and "them" always in the "98%" of loosers.
Because 98% is wrong there is a big change a lot of the "2%" is wrong too.

QuoteAt a certain point, I think that we just have to accept that we can only do what we can do, and that we can do nothing more - and that if we find we were in error, then God will correct us in the end.  If I have been deceived, then so be it - that possibility ought not stop me from earnestly trying to interact with sincere love with everyone I meet.

I'm sure God looks more favourble on honest mistakes as on "never bothered to try".

 :cloud9: Amen again, J. Preston.......the "problem" is, most have not been shown yet that there is a bride "company" of believers, and a bridegroom "company" (company as in an army) of believers, called the sons or mature ones of God.

The sons get caught up to the Father's house (us IN Christ) so at the appointed time they can be released to go get their "bride", ie. the rest of creation. This catching up begins with the baptism of the HG, the earnest of the son's inheritance, but eventually the son inherits all things and then it's time to go looking for a "wife" so he can produce heirs. Who shall declare His generation?

Song of Solomon is all about how the sons will treat their "wives", not condemning her because she is black but comely (darkened souls), but wooing her with pleasant words, telling her how beautiful she is to him (who she REALLY is, ie. speaking those things that are not as though they were = to PROPHESY over "her") and how precious.

So the Sonship message is basically the mechanics of HOW He intends to bring about UR; mere believing in it is not going to be enough, because faith without works is dead in God's economy. Sonship principles brought to FULL HARVEST/ FULL INHERITANCE, is the "works". For the heir/son as long as he is a child (not mature; not fully formed in His image yet), differeth nothing from a servant.......

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

God is doing the same pattern He did before; He does things AGAIN, as a WITNESS, and we are truly being made into a SECOND WITNESS.........for we were made of a woman/soul, under the law/letter understanding, for a season.....

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

We have only borne witness of John and a measure of Christ so far, because we have been in the mixture of the 2 days of Pentecost, eating of both grace and law (tree of good and evil), because the FULLNESS of the tree of life was withheld from from our understanding until we learned to choose the good and not the evil from His Spirit of Truth.

That fullness is to have both the Son AND the FATHER in full manifestation, which is why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father; it's not only because they are one, but because He intends for us to be one as well, with a WITNESS to that fact. He comes to WITNESS the sons that are being raised to the FULL stature of the measure of Christ ( the FIRSTFRUITS Son), ie. that have been made a perfect, mature, or COMPLETE man.

Christ is the Seed of the Father's loins, and we are being made to be one with that Seed so that He can use us to "impregnate" the "bride company" and raise up and bring more sons (the bride company), unto glory, the glory of the only begotten Son, each man in his own order.

The order is not of timing only, but of NATURE. His other "sons", days 1-6, are to remain a mixture of darkness and light, until they too come into the glorious liberty of the sons of the God, made a perfect or complete man, ie. one with the 7th day which is Christ, no part darkness, who is witnessed by the Father Himself.

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Col. 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Joh 1:16 - And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Eph 3:19 - And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

But the time is coming and now is, that the Father will withhold no good thing from His mature sons, who are being changed into His image via the twinkling of HIS eye. Noah found grace in His eyes, but we are becoming that grace to give to the nations, and the Father is going to witness His own, because an heir, HAS EVERYTHING THE FATHER HAS. Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 10, 2009, 06:40:07 PMThe sons get caught up to the Father's house (us IN Christ) so at the appointed time they can be released to go get their "bride", ie. the rest of creation.

Aren't the believers the bride of Chist and the rest the guests at the wedding?

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 10, 2009, 06:55:45 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 10, 2009, 06:40:07 PMThe sons get caught up to the Father's house (us IN Christ) so at the appointed time they can be released to go get their "bride", ie. the rest of creation.

Aren't the believers the bride of Chist and the rest the guests at the wedding?

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.


Beautiful, Cardinal!

Yes, Card, beautiful!

A tremendous lie that has been put forth from Satan is that people must physically die to see heaven.
The word die in the NT usually does not refer to physical death.
And the word heaven has been defined by Hollywood and Hallmark in most people's minds — than by the Word Himself.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 10, 2009, 11:14:14 PM
The word die in the NT usually does not refer to physical death.

Huh?  The Greek word thnesko (to die) is used nine times in the New Testament.  Eight times it is used to refer to physical death (Matthew 2:20, Mark 15:44, Luke 7:12, Luke 8:49, John 11:44, John 19:33, Acts 14:19, and Acts 25:19).  Only once is it used to refer to figurative death (1 Timothy 5:6).  One out of nine is not what I would call "usually"...

If you're instead referring to the Greek word thanatos (death, i.e., the noun), that's used more often (105 times in the New Testament), and unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment to sift through all 105 of them, but I do see a number of references to figurative death there, although I also see a number of references to physical death, too.

3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

---Galatians 4


"elements"

G4747
στοιχεῖον
stoicheion
stoy-khi'-on
Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4748; something orderly in arrangement, that is, (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively): - element, principle, rudiment.


This really interests me, because it is saying that we are subject to the laws of nature, when we are children.

Quote from: CardinalSonship principles brought to FULL HARVEST/ FULL INHERITANCE, is the "works". For the heir/son as long as he is a child (not mature; not fully formed in His image yet), differeth nothing from a servant.......

The works were always the works of Christ.  No Christ--no faith---no works.   The mature heir/son will do the mature works of Christ [and greater things then he did, although I'm not quite sure why that would be--maybe because he will be doing the works of the resurrected Christ?]--supernatural healings, loaves and fishes, walking through walls into rooms, appearing and disappearing at the place of your choice---because he will no longer be subject to the orderly laws of nature, just as Jesus was not.

The apostles themselves experienced a lot of these works, out of season.  Peter's shadow would heal crowds, Phillip translated from one place to another, Paul raised one from the dead --it was how they were able to spread the gospel so far in their natural lifetimes.

Amazing isn't Molly?
And the 12 were not walking in full manifestation as Sons.
The greater works will be because the Sons will be walking in the full Resurrection power of Christ Jesus, just as He did after the cross.

Quote from: Gab on November 11, 2009, 12:46:16 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 10, 2009, 11:14:14 PM
The word die in the NT usually does not refer to physical death.

Huh?  The Greek word thnesko (to die) is used nine times in the New Testament.  Eight times it is used to refer to physical death (Matthew 2:20, Mark 15:44, Luke 7:12, Luke 8:49, John 11:44, John 19:33, Acts 14:19, and Acts 25:19).  Only once is it used to refer to figurative death (1 Timothy 5:6).  One out of nine is not what I would call "usually"...

If you're instead referring to the Greek word thanatos (death, i.e., the noun), that's used more often (105 times in the New Testament), and unfortunately I don't have the time at the moment to sift through all 105 of them, but I do see a number of references to figurative death there, although I also see a number of references to physical death, too.

Thank you, Gab.   

Anne

 :cloud9: I thought this comment from a FB friend of mine was especially interesting, and as it goes with this discussion........Blessings....

"In the New Testament, the Greek word used for DEATH is THANATOS, and for DEAD, NEKRON, meaning without life, or lifeless. People describe death in various ways. Some call it a separation from life or from consciousness; others call it a sleep with a suspended consciousness.

These descriptions sound very suitable, but they do not get to its root ...  Basically death is a conscious separation from God. We are in death even while we live in the flesh, if we are unconscious of spiritual realities. As long as we are only conscious of natural things, we are in death."

Thank you, Card.

Dave

Quote from: Cardinal on November 11, 2009, 04:44:13 PM
:cloud9: I thought this comment from a FB friend of mine was especially interesting, and as it goes with this discussion........Blessings....

"In the New Testament, the Greek word used for DEATH is THANATOS, and for DEAD, NEKRON, meaning without life, or lifeless. People describe death in various ways. Some call it a separation from life or from consciousness; others call it a sleep with a suspended consciousness.

These descriptions sound very suitable, but they do not get to its root ...  Basically death is a conscious separation from God. We are in death even while we live in the flesh, if we are unconscious of spiritual realities. As long as we are only conscious of natural things, we are in death."

I'm not really sure what this has to do with the words themselves, though.  Thanatos and nekron both refer to death in the standard sense, i.e., physical death where the body is no longer alive.  It's not as though these words exist only in the New Testament; they're part of the common Greek language of the time at which Jesus lived.  The writings in the New Testament were written such that the common folk would be able to read and understand them, as evidenced by the writers' usage of Koine Greek.  For that reason I tend to be very wary of attempts (and I know of a lot of them) to special-case the Bible in terms of the definitions one provides for the language used therein.

One can certainly argue in favor of the figurative use of these words in the New Testament, but I don't think that the words themselves provide any evidence to that end.

I believe it was Eby that somewhere brought out a study in the course of whatever it was (I'd look into his book on the priesthood in the part about the Melchizedek order) that there are 5 ways the N.T. uses the word death.  I can immediately think of "I die daily" "As many as were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death," which are at least 2 forms of death that are not in themselves physical discorporation.

How about one I may be somewhat misquoting, I know I had trouble looking it up recently, "Through the cross of ChristI am a dead thing to the world and the world is dead to me..."(?)

 :cloud9: I decided to post this here as we are discussing the "ins and outs" of the feast of Tabernacles. Here is some understanding He has given me on part of it. He calls it the feast of TABERNACLES for a reason.

He's making us a feast of FAT things = those that have not been circumcised
by the processing of the work that is inherent in tabernacles. This is in Isaiah 25 or 26 I believe.

This ties in with the bones Ezekial saw.
Bones without meat on them = first veil of our flesh laid down.
DRY bones=those that have laid down the Christ veil of His flesh (because Spirit is water/life of them).

Where He makes "fat" our bones is where He puts the glorified word/flesh back on them, ie. that which has been thru the fire of the fullness of the Holy Ghost/Father, after laying down the "flesh" of Christ.

Now let me explain what that means. We were called out into the wilderness here to "die", and be made of no reputation, taking on the image of sinful flesh, or being made conformable to His death.

For most of us, if not all of us, we look like we've lost our minds, our salvation, aren't really Christians,ect. to the outside world, because we are not worshiping Him in the confines of Babylonian confusion anymore. And so we "laid down" the "image" of Him, but not the reality of Him in our lives and hearts. Just the opposite, in fact.

This is why the fat was an offering only for God the Father,and why we were told not to eat the fat of an animal in dietary laws (aside from making you sick). The fat (think about it--fat is above what is needed; as oil that has congealed, not flowing, LAID UP).

This is representative of the wisdom of the Spirit which is Christ, that is hidden in the
uncircumcised (definition of gentiles NOW) that cannot be a light without the fire of the Holy Ghost consuming it. Uncircumcised ones, meaning those that have the wheat and the tares together still, that must still go thru the cleansing fire of the Holy Ghost (in the HARVEST, He will send His angels and they will GATHER up.....= Math. 13).

WE ARE becoming the lake of fire they get cast in, as the Father consumes US, LOL :).
Without THIS FIRE being the one to do it, trying to consume this fat is as offering up
strange fire, which is what you see happening to those that think it's ok to consume other things outside the Word, APART FROM THE LEADING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

With the Spirit leading, no harm can come, for the tares are burned/consumed in the fire, REFINED in the refiner's fire, leaving the life of Spirit which is Christ hidden in the people this pertains to, revealed by cleansing, distilled like wine.

It's the same as refining gold, where the dross (doctrines without life) is consumed, but the gold (higher nature of God revealed, ie. revelations of the Word that IS life and Spirit) is retained.

They SHALL PICK UP serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them.
When God told Moses to CAST DOWN His rod of authority = veil of Christ's flesh as it pertains to coming outside the camp and dying, ie. laying down of all,  it then took on the IMAGE OF SINFUL FLESH, but it CONSUMED the serpent natures of the uncircumcised Egyptians (flesh),

And then the Lord God told Him to pick it back up ie. after suffering with Him, we are glorified with Him = MIRACLES to set ALL creation free. He did His first miracle at Cana, which runs into word used in Psalms (I believe it was) that means "possessor of heaven and earth" ie. the ALmighty God, the Father God that is in our new
heaven/glorified Christ AND our new earth/glorified body. This is why it says, God was IN Christ reconciling all men unto Himself.

This rod of Moses, ties in with the PICKING UP (catching up) of the TWELVE BASKETS OF FRAGMENTS = 12 tribes of humanity He "fragmented" Himself in, after the 5 (grace ministered thru ministry of 5 fold) fishes and 2 loaves (witness of Son and Spirit together = inner court) dispensation has ENDED. It is time for the Father to come on the scene, and FULFILL the promise with HIMSELF.

Additionally, look up word for lake and it runs into haven, which in the Hebrew means among other things, "to cover"(as in the blood of the Christ that is laid down now thru the laying down of the flesh of Him, has the POWER to cover or expiate THEIR sins), and runs into word meaning "to enclose" (as in, a garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse) and also, compassionate, pity, regard, spare, and protection.

It also runs into word that means to stroke, erase to smooth (as with oil), grease or make FAT, blot out, full of marrow.

If you go to Ephesians 1:7 it says we are set FREE by the DEATH of CHRIST. And 2Cor.4:4 the word image, as in Christ made in the image of God runs into word that means "GOAT".

His image is one of life thru sacrificial death, and Paul prayed to know what is the power of His resurrection, that he might be conformed into the IMAGE OF HIS
DEATH, that he might by any means, ATTAIN THE RESURRECTION.

John 7:10 -But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

Starting with the above, the feast He went to in secret in this passage, was literally the feast of Tabernacles.....and so too does He do this thing in secret with us spiritually, because it is unobservable, unlike Passover and Pentecost, and is typified by the fact the High Priest went in ALONE into the Holy of Holies.

Job 12:22 -He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to light the shadow of death.

If you understand what's below that I shared first, pertaining to what this "darkness" IS, ie. the ones holding Christ in UNrighteousness, the wisdom hidden in the UNcircumcized of heart.

1Kings 8:12 -Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

God hid Himself in the last place man would ever think to look......IN MAN.

Daniel 2:22 - He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Isa 45:3 -And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

   These treasures of darkness and hidden riches are none other than the wealth of the WICKED held up (RESERVED IN HEAVEN/Christ IN them) for the just (us), ie. those that have followed Him to celebrate Tabernacles.

Carnal man thought the wealth was material goods or gold and silver (and He can and will bring that also once we are fully one with the Head from whom all blessing flow, which is the purpose of this feast), but the true riches are wisdom in Christ, for wisdom is more valuable than rubies.

2Samuel 22:12 - And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

That Hebrew word pavilions there is the same as TABERNACLES.

Thought I'd better add a "natural practical" word about how this is working in us. Have you ever received the LIFE of His Spirit speaking to you either out of the writings of others, or even out of others who are not Christian?

Then you are "eating" or consuming the riches laid up for the just. He is turning their water into wine for you, distilling out of them the new wine of the Kingdom which is Spirit contained in flesh. Blessings.....

Wonderful Post Card!
And to address the "natural/practical" aspect I have to add that that happens to me constantly. Constantly.
I am being taught from every which way and from where and when I least expect it.
Contacts I have everyday, whether they be friends, strangers, radio, TV and print, and nature itself are all speaking the Word of the Lord.

 :cloud9: AMEN........the tongues of Babylon are being "silenced", because that which is perfect has come, is come, and is coming NOW, and we are hearing the Voice of many waters instead. Rejoicing with you!  :boogie: :Egyptdance2: :myahoo: :angel4: :girlangel: Father, we give You praise this day, for You are worthy. Blessings....

Psalm 91:1
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.


"in the secret place"
H5643
סתרה    סתר
sêther  sithrâh
say'-ther, sith-raw'
From H5641; a cover (in a good or a bad, a literal or a figurative sense): - backbiting, covering, covert, X disguise [-th], hiding place, privily, protection, secret (-ly, place).


The secret place of the most High is a tabernacle, the pavilion of God,  a place where we can dwell and be safe.

4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust:..

"wings"
H3671
כּנף
kânâph
kaw-nawf'
From H3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle: -  + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).


Surely, this was the dwelling place of the Lord Jesus when he walked this earth.  Satan tried to tempt him out of this secret place with all the riches and power of the world.  Satan tried to tempt him to test God by leaving that safe place, the pavilion of God.

Luke 4:9
And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: [Psa 91]


The light is hidden by the darkness.  What a concept, Cardinal!  We always tend to think of light illuminating darkness, but the darkness plays its part, too,---to hide, conceal, that which is too precious for the world.

Until the time of the revealing, he...

...[shall abide]"under the shadow" [of the Almighty]

H6751
צלל
tsâlal
tsaw-lal'
A primitive root (rather identical with H6749 through the idea of hovering over (compare H6754)); to shade, as twilight or an opaque object: - begin to be dark, shadowing.



Psalm 27:5
For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

6And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/562/562779cix2h69v10.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)

 :cloud9: Well, my cryptic friend, this time you have stumped me. What's up with the mouse, LOL? Blessings...

Quote from: peacemaker on November 13, 2009, 09:57:51 AM
(http://dl9.glitter-graphics.net/pub/562/562779cix2h69v10.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)

Quote from: Cardinal on November 13, 2009, 09:21:22 PM
:cloud9: Well, my cryptic friend, this time you have stumped me. What's up with the mouse, LOL? Blessings...

The word speaks of sowing and those that listen, reap; an interdependent action. :Book:

 :cloud9: A post I pulled from Robert Torango's FB site, another Kingdom minister.....long, but worth the read. Blessings..... :thumbsup:
                                                          Part 1

THE HOUSE THAT GOD BUILT
Volume 2, Chapter 4
The Cell
A Celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles


Acts 7:44-50

Our forefathers had the tent (tabernacle) of witness in the wilderness, even as He Who directed Moses to make it had ordered, according to the pattern and model he had seen. [Ex 25:9-40.]
Our forefathers in turn brought it [this tent of witness] in [with them into the land] with Joshua when they dispossessed the nations which God drove out before the face of our forefathers. [So it remained here] until the time of David, [Deut 32:49; Josh 3:14-17.]
Who found grace (favor and spiritual blessing) in the sight of God and prayed that he might be allowed to find a dwelling place for the God of Jacob. [2 Sam 7:8-16; Ps 132:1-5.]
But it was Solomon who built a house for Him. [1 Kings 6.]
However, the Most High does not dwell in houses and temples made with hands; as the prophet says, [Isa 66:1,2.]
Heaven [is] My throne, and earth the footstool for My feet. What [kind of] house can you build for Me, says the Lord, or what is the place in which I can rest?
Was it not My hand that made all these things? [Isa 66:1,2.] AMP

Heb 8:1-2
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle , which the Lord pitched, and not man. KJV

Heb 8:5
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle : for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
KJV

Heb 9:11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle , not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; KJV

Rev 21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. KJV

The study of The House That God Built is, in all actuality, a study of the experience of the Feast of Tabernacles. From the singular moment in the Garden of Eden, when God had finalized all of His creative process of forming the universe and the inhabitants of the earth, He then proceeded to put His hand to the Center Piece of creation, mankind. In an astounding act of unfeigned love, God broke rank with His previous method of creating the worlds and all that is therein, for with these He spoke them into existence. But, with the creation of mankind, He performed an intimate forming of Adam with His own hands, lowering Himself into the earth, by which God lovingly humbled Himself to form a creature out of the very dust (earthly composition) of the ground, actually getting His hands dusty in the process.

Think about it! The prior days of creation were a formal speaking into existence, but with the creature called MAN, God mingled His creative substance with the earthly chemistry of elements and compounds and built a tabernacle of earth and water with the utmost care and concern to every microscopic detail. Then, in an even more devastating act of intimacy, He put His divine lips to the creatures mouth and breathed into this House His own spirit, indwelling this tent of cells and organs with His own essence, making man a "living soul."

No love story known to man can compare with this singular act of entwinement of God with mankind. When I say that God built man, I mean that God used the elements of the natural world and compounded them together to build Adam one cell at a time, until there stood before Him a tabernacle made up of over 100 Trillion cells, all interconnected with one another and committed to one another to form an organism of such unity and oneness that the host of heaven gasped over its symphonic symmetry.

Each part of this tabernacle lent its structure and function to the whole in such unyielding resolve that it moved as though it was only one part. In fact, this was a tabernacle made up of trillions of "tabernacles" which lived and functioned with such sameness of purpose and action that it did indeed exist as one whole and complete Tabernacle. In short, God formed an organism that was a living, breathing Feast of Tabernacles.

When God spoke to Moses and instructed him concerning the structure and function of the earthly Tabernacle, the "house of witness", He instructed Moses to "build" it in the same pattern as God built the first Tabernacle, Adam. This Tabernacle involved a structure with an outer wall of curtains which formed the outer court, then a smaller tent which comprised the Holy Place and within that structure a veiled partition which comprised the Holiest of Holies.

Three compartments of specific measurements which contained specific elements that would be used for the function of each compartment in particular, but with a continuity of function between all three compartments that connected them together, from the brazen altar in the outer court, to the candlestick and the shewbread table in the holy place, to the ark of the covenant inside the holiest of all.

The physical tabernacle of Moses represented the "pattern" of the cellular makeup of mankind, which foundationally is the human cell, the smallest unit of life. As the tabernacle of Moses had three compartments, so the human cell has three compartments. Not to be thought of as strange, since the same One that instructed Moses in the Mount concerning the pattern of the tabernacle in the wilderness, is the same Creator God that formed the human cell in building Adam.

So it is, that the human cell also has an outer wall, which comprises the outer court of the cell, known as the "cytoplasm". Then, in a startling illustration of similarity with the Tabernacle shown to Moses, there is found a second compartment which comprises the holy place of the cell, the Nucleus. Inside the Nucleus, there is a third compartment of the cell which comprises the "holiest of all" of the cell, the Nucleolus.

So, we find that mankind is made up of the exact pattern of cellular structure as the Tabernacle of Moses. HOWEVER, the cell is not patterned after the Tabernacle of Moses, but the cell is the original pattern from which Moses built the Tabernacle! Our study of the human cell and the complex organism that the cells form in our human body is a study that corresponds to the True Tabernacle, which no man could pitch, but it is the House that the living God has chosen to make His abode, the House of God.

YOU, my dear friends, are the very House of God! You are more than flesh and blood, a brain and a heart, you are the very dwelling place of the Most High Lord God, the residence of the Creator of all things. Oh my! Can you believe that? This is why the scriptures have been preserved through the ages to be handed down to this present generation. Only THIS generation could have possibly known of the existence of such a pattern of 3s between the Tabernacle in the wilderness and the Tabernacle of the garden. No other generation could have "seen" the human cellular pattern until our time of technology, which has given us "eyes" to actually look microscopically into a pattern that had existed from our very biological beginnings, but which no human eye could bear witness to until our lifetime.

Do you see the significance of such a thing? The prophetic declarations that have come forth concerning our present time as it relates to the plan of the ages is found to be absolutely true by reason of the correlating phenomenon of our microscopic technology, revealing the hidden mysteries of God's creative blueprint in making mankind, which gives rise to a chorus of glorious affirmations that we are INDEED the House that God built and we are also the House that God is filling with His glory! As His presence filled the Temple in ancient Israel, even so is the spirit of the Lord filling our physical temple with His own glorious Self! We have a greater witness than the prophets of old. We have the original pattern by which God began this wondrous journey from the earthiness of fallen man to the glorious uprising of the Son of man.

Even as Israel was given the pattern of the Tabernacle and the function of the priesthood within that structure, they were then given instructions on the keeping of yearly Festivals, or Feasts. There were 3 of these Feasts that were to be celebrated each year, again corresponding to the 3 compartments and functions of the Tabernacle.

                                                     Part 2

The first Feast to be observed was the Feast of Passover. This had a significance of Israel's time of slavery in Egypt, when God instructed them to apply the blood of a sacrifice over the door posts of each home so the death angel would "Pass Over" that house in Egypt. This first Feast is directly connected to the functions of the priestly duties in the Outer Court of the Tabernacle. No one knows the exact measure of a "cubit" but a cubit is generally believed to be about 18 inches, or 1 ½ feet. If this is true, the dimensions of the outer court were approximately 150 feet long and 75 feet wide. The wall of the outer court was approximately 7 ½ feet high.

As in all things pertaining to God and His plan, everything is designed specifically by the Grand Architect to fulfill a certain function and purpose. Indeed, as the natural things of this world are structured in such a way as to enhance the "function" of those earthly elements, the structure of all things in Christ are spiritually designed to enhance the "function" of these spiritual elements.

In this case, the enclosure of the outer court served to keep intruders from wandering into the court. It is important to understand that the outer court was just as holy to the Lord as the inner chamber, as is seen in the very title of the inner chamber, THE HOLY OF HOLIES.

All of the Tabernacle is holy unto the Lord and is to be kept holy and reserved for the service of the priesthood. In applying this to our present walk in the Lord, we must keep in mind that just because we have been chosen to be aware of and a participator of "deeper truths", we must never lose the sight that all realms of understanding in Christ are HOLY UNTO THE LORD!

If a person is presently walking in the understanding of Passover, or a basic salvation experience, it is just as important to the Father for them to celebrate that Feast as it is for us to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. The inner chamber of the Tabernacle is the "Holiest" of all other partitions of the structure and is the source of all Holiness that is found elsewhere in the entire structure.

So, the outer wall of the court is a barrier to keep out those that have no purpose of ministry in the Tabernacle. The court of the Tabernacle was not a place to have a casual gathering of folks, but it was to be a place of sacrifice and cleansing for the sins of Israel. In order for anyone to have access to the Court of the Sanctuary, they had to come to offer worship in the form of a sacrifice. They gained access to the Court by the East Gate, a 30 ft wide opening, veiled with a screen of fine, twisted linen.

Upon entering through the screen, they came to the Altar of Burnt Offering. In the Outer Court, there were only 2 elements of service, the Altar of Burnt Offering and the Laver. The rest of the Court was an open area, designed very simply and spaciously. Even so, the experience of the Feast of Passover has a very simple, but profound message. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us!

Under the Law, there were many sacrifices offered for redemption, involving many different types of sins. There were meat offerings, meal offerings, and grain offerings. But, in Christ, we are made clean and righteous by His single sacrifice, which has been given for all mankind. As by one man we were born into sin, also by one Man we are freed from the bondage and debt of that original sin nature. Since Adam infected every man and woman after him, even so, Jesus the Christ of God has redeemed every man after Him AND before Him, even those that were under the law or lived without the law, He has left no man out from His great salvation plan. (Romans 5:12-15)

When someone needed to offer a sacrifice to God, the offering was brought through the gate of the court and the priest performed the priestly duty of sacrifice and washing, which is symbolic of our first experience with Christ as a recognition of His having offered Himself for us, not just in death at the cross, but also in lowering Himself to our lowly stature of mankind, (or, a kind of man), taking on the same form and fashion as us.

Jesus has been forever linked to us through His birth into this earthly dimension, becoming our "Elder Brother" in the flesh and in the spirit. He is our Kinsman, or our own Kind. Through Passover, the blood of Christ is applied to our "house", as He has become the propitiation for our sins. He has covered us with His own sacrificial life and by reason of that, death will "Passover" us and we will live eternally by reason of His own eternal life. Our journey begins in the outer court, but does not stop there. We must go through the outer court, enter into the Holy Place and then step into the Holiest of Holies, a journey that is acting itself out in each individual life that God has given life unto.

Every man will know Him through an experiential journey from acknowledging His Sacrificial Life for us, by the shedding of His Blood (Life) and then onto the partaking of His Bread of Life and the drinking of His Wine (Blood-Life) and then on to an indwelling of His Nature and Character. For those that have been chosen by Him, they will be a kind of first-fruit of this journey that all men will undertake, as the sons of God appropriate the elements of salvation into their being, a company of chosen vessels that have been selected by God from before the foundations of the world to be the express image of their Father in the earth.

The sons of God are the first to completely "apprehend that for which they have been apprehended." As the Apostle Paul so wonderfully expressed this aggressive action of the chosen ones inserted below, it illustrates the seriousness of our time in the plan of God.

Phil 3:12-14
Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own.
I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.
AMP

This handpicked company of "Early Fruit Sons" are given the spiritual attire of priests and kings, following in the footsteps of their Elder Brother, Jesus Christ, their High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. In the Tabernacle of Moses, the blood that was shed at the Brazen Altar was then taken into the Holy Place and then into the Holiest of Holies, a direct blood line from the sacrifice of the outer court into the inner sanctum of the Holiest of All.

Heb 10:19-20
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; KJV

Our experience in Christ does not end at the outer court experience of salvation, nor does it end at the Holy Place experience of the infilling of the spirit, but all men will enter into the Holiest of Holies by reason of the Life of Jesus Christ, who has made an entrance for us into the intimacy of the Father's glory. Our experience must entail both Passover and Pentecost before we can celebrate the true abundance of the Feast of Tabernacles.

Many are gaining the knowledge of the Feast of Ingathering, but knowledge alone will not give us entrance, we must have on our priestly garments to enter therein, which come from the outer court and the Holy Place experiences. Anyone trying to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles without the 2 prior experiences are celebrating a false Feast! We cannot have the experience of just one feast, or two feasts, but we must be celebrants of all 3 Feasts in order to get the full benefits of those Feasts.

The 3 Feasts were instituted by God to correspond with the agricultural seasons of the year for Israel. Seed was to be planted, the field was to be cultivated and watered, then the final stage was to harvest the fruit from the field. If the planting were left off, there would be no harvest. If the field were not cultivated, there would be no harvest. In order to participate in the harvesting of the field, there must needs be a planting and a cultivating of the field.

As full grown sons of God, we are now participating in all 3 phases of the plan of God. We do not lack in any element of the 3 Feasts. I pray that we realize the POWER of the Third Dimension of experiencing the Life of Christ. There is true power in each of the 3 Feasts of the plan of God. Regardless of how profane men have celebrated the Feasts of Passover and Pentecost, and now the profanity reaches into the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles, we should still keep in mind that God has a pure celebration of salvation, a pure celebration of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and a pure celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles.

Speaking for my wife, Charlotte, and myself, we still minister salvation to all that are ready to come to Christ at the call of His spirit. We still minister the fullness of the spirit, manifesting itself in gifts and offices of the spirit to the Body of Christ. I still speak in tongues, although some have come to the conclusion that Tongues should not be manifested in the "deeper" gatherings.

In my humble opinion, one does not necessarily have to speak in tongues to be filled with the spirit, but one should not consciously try NOT to speak in tongues just to prove a point. If tongues are to cease, they will cease on their own, without our helping them. I still move in a prophetic realm, still pray for the sick and have faith they will recover. I still preach the Word at every opportunity and many other various gifts and callings of the spirit.

In other words, I am still yielding to the moving of the Spirit of God, which will give rise to every aspect of the 3 Feast experiences in our midst if we leave our own carnal minds out of the equation and let God have His way.

Pentecost is a much more complex Feast than Passover. Passover deals with the simplicity of Jesus Christ giving His life for the world. We confess Him as our Savior and receive His sacrifice and then make Him Lord of our heart. It is a Feast of Unleavened Bread, pure Truth and pure God. The reconciling of the world to God by the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is complete and cannot be added to nor taken away from. It is a pure act of God, not requiring our participation or permission. You are not your own, you have been bought with a price, lock, stock and barrel. You do not have to BELIEVE in the reconciliation of Christ, it simply IS!

He did not reconcile us by taking an inventory of our worthiness for such an act, it is a GIFT of God, not to be paid back by our woeful attempts at being worthy of such a prize. You are not worthy of it and never will be worthy of it. It is an unmerited favor of God upon all of mankind. He reconciled you BEFORE the original sin was ever instigated! What a grand Mystery of Redemption! If the salvation of all men were a horse race, we would say that God fixed the race, it is a sure thing, bet on all men being saved because there is no other possible outcome! Glory to His Name. Before Adam ever sinned, before the corruption of such an act was ever passed on to all children of Adam, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:18-21; Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3; Heb 9:24-28; 1 Peter 1:18-20; Rev 13:8)Such is the POWER of the Feast of Passover and the shedding of the blood of Christ Jesus.

Pentecost is a Feast of great power and manifestation and corresponds with the realm of the Candlestick and Shewbread. It is a Feast with Leaven, however, and included with the immense power and manifestation of God's spirit moving upon flesh, we still see the carnal, religious minds of men operating side by side with the pure gift realm of the spirit.

False prophets and realms of psychic power coexist in the ministry of Pentecost, for the gifts of this Feast are without repentance. This means that God will not withdraw Himself from the pure hearts of the people of God, even speaking through an unclean vessel in order to bless and heal His believers. Along with true prophets there stands the prophets of Baal, the merchandisers and conmen are found in this feast, bringing shame upon the Feast by their wanton lust for money and controlling power.

However, in spite of the leaven of carnal flesh, in the midst of this Great Feast of spiritual manifestation, God has shown His mighty power and love to the world. So much so, that over the past 100 years the world has been witness to a mighty move of God that has covered the entire World in its reality.

Miraculous healings, physical demonstrations of God taking control of the faculties of men and women have witnessed to the fact that there is something within man that is beyond their own abilities. It is a forerunner for the Feast of Tabernacles and one should not discard the Holy Feast of Pentecost simply because of the corruption found within it. The Apostle Paul made a clear distinction between just preaching a doctrine and preaching with the power of God.

1 Cor 2:1-5
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. KJV

Paul realized that the saints of God at Corinth needed to know the power of God that was resident in the Gospel of Christ. It is a power that is able to change a person's mind AND heart, to bring transformation to their being and give Life to them, instead of the deadness of philosophical meanderings. Pentecost has true POWER and it is a Feast of supernatural moving of the spirit. Pentecost is similar to the times of the Old Testament when true Prophets of the Lord walked the earth. These were not men dressed in expensive attire, with gargantuan egos, as you see in the so-called prophets of the modern day TV driven mega-church arena.

                                                          Part 3


Today, people are clamoring over men and women that have set themselves up as Bishops and Apostles, true celebrities of a show-time church system that preys upon the human nature to worship something tangible and fleshly, rather than the invisible God. Vast arenas are filled with enchanted believers, childish and immature, hoping to bask in the presence of these professional speakers, much like the attendees of a Rock Concert with adoring fans pressing to the front just to get a glimpse of the stars of the show. It is indeed, all a show.

This movement is made up of fluff and personality, music driven, flamboyant personalities, orchestrating soulish encounters with the requisite hysteria of a crowd energized by the soulish ministry of true showbiz genius. It is a show made for TV and for the viewing pleasure of the masses. However, it is not the true POWER of the Feast of Pentecost. It is a mutation of flesh and soul, which appeals to the lower expectations of a starved Christian community.

How I long for the pure flow of Pentecost to be presented to the Church today. Latter Rain was a movement that came on the scene in the late 1940's and early 1950's with anointed true prophets that prophesied as the spirit gave utterance. Pure and powerful in its beginnings, this element of Pentecost brought a purity back into the ranks of Pentecostals, involving simple, humble men and women of God yielding to the spirit with tremendous unity of faith and purpose.

Spirit-led services infused the congregations with a transforming flow of worship and word, expressed out of a multitude of willing vessels that released the reservoir of blessings in Christ Jesus, resulting in stupendous healings and supernatural signs and wonders.

Then, man took control and the glory receded from the gatherings. Now, we are on the brink of another Feast shining the first rays of glory upon our generation, giving us glimpses into an order and rank of kingly authority and priestly service that gives rise to a vision of God entwining His divine substance with the 3 fold structure of man, body-soul-spirit in such a way as to form a New Man and a new creature of which heaven and earth has never seen.

After we have experienced the simplicity of Passover and the power and glory of Pentecost, we then enter into the celebration of the New Man in Christ, an experience which transforms all the prior elements of the Feasts into a more excellent ministry of the True Figures which all other gifts and offices represent.

Once we fully enter the Feast of Tabernacles, we then start to see the methodology of the spirit of Christ transform into a more perfect manifestation, taking us to a place in the Lord where all things are in our hands, authority and wisdom infuse us, we see with new eyes of understanding, discerning the needs of the people and moving in divine order to meet those needs.

This is a realm that no man is operating in fully at this time, but we have begun to be taught of the spirit concerning this dimension of life and glory. We have the types and shadows of the scriptures to guide us, but we must know that the actual True Figures themselves are so much more glorious than the lower elements of service themselves as to not be compared when the True Figures manifest in our midst.

Our finite minds cannot comprehend such an explosion of spirit-life as is waiting for us that are ordained to come into such a realm. The huge audiences of the past ministries of the Salvation message are not to be compared to this manifestation of the sons of God. Billy Graham, D. L. Moody, Billy Sunday and all the other giants of Passover all reached multitudes with the message of salvation, but the ministry of the 3rd Day of Christ will not hold Crusades in football stadiums or appear on the TBN television network. Earthly words will not suffice when God begins the culmination of the ages. The WORD will go forth, not in word only, but in SOUND!

Rom 10:17-18
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

1 Cor 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 1:13-15
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Rev 8:6
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound .

Rev 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound , the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

You can spend all of your time learning the WORDS of the Kingdom message, but if you don't have the SOUND of the Word, your voice will be as tinkling cymbals and sounding brass. The SOUND of the message is what makes the difference between a dead word and a living word.

The SOUND of the spirit is not learned by reading and memorizing scriptures, it is an element of our existence that is brought about by fiery burnings, standing in the midst of the furnace of trials and cleansing and letting the SOUND of His voice be engraved upon our spiritual DNA.

This sound comes out of hell, my friends! This ministry comes out of the dreaded dealings of a jealous God, a place of judgment and correction which gives us no relief until that certain sound is formed in us. Word alone will not perform the work of the Feast of Tabernacles, no preacher will ever preach well enough for this Feast to be one of Word and human expression.

There is a Voice within us that is waiting to sound forth its clarion call, a Trumpet fashioned by God that no Angelic host can sound. It can only be sounded by a certain kind of God-man, a new species of creature that is waiting to be revealed and heard from. Only a Seventh Day Son can blow the trumpet that will usher in the Seventh Day of God's plan of the ages.

Out of the fiery forging of the presence of God comes a company of saviors, kings and priests, servants and sons, without earthly pedigree, unknown and unqualified according to the credentials of organized religion, they are qualified by a higher Power, receiving their credentials by being the first fruits OF the First Fruit of God raised from amongst the dead, approved by the spirit, pre-ordained, predestinated to be found in His image and likeness. The world has never seen anything like them, except in one Man, Jesus Christ.

Because He was not meant to be a singular Seed of Promise, God has been letting the ages unfold to reveal the glorious fact that this Seed was not to dwell alone, but out of that Life-Giving Seed, the earth has been seeded with His divine genetic code and now we are living in the time of the harvesting of that Seed, now found in the many seeds of sons. We bear His genetic marker, dear ones! We cannot deny Him, for we would be denying our most foundational self. We are IN HIM and He is IN US, a literal celebration of the Oneness of Tabernacles.

We are experiencing the True Figure of AT-ONE-MENT, God tabernacling with man! Oh, but be sure to know that this tabernacling is not to be understood in the same old understanding that the church has been living in, singing "Jesus Is In My Heart" but then preaching about Him being "out there" somewhere. I am talking about a full embodiment of the God Head in our being. As in the days of the Tabernacle of Moses, Christ has been abiding behind the veil of our understanding, known to be abiding there but only seen and manifested in rare occasions.

Ah, but know this one thing beloved of the Lord, it is the time for the fullness of God to fill His House with His glory! That is why Tabernacles is so important for us and all mankind, for it is the time that the Shekinah Glory of God is no longer confined to an inner place of veils and curtains. It is now ready to be revealed in us with all of its glorious beauty and radiance, until the Holy Place and the Outer Court is filled with the holy presence of the Father. Then, there will be only ONE dwelling place, not 3 separate chambers, but one glorious tabernacle filled with the substance of God's eternal spirit.

For those of us that believe that there will be a generation that will not go to the grave, but will cross over into this Feast of Tabernacles in their mortal body and be transformed and transfigured into a state of incorruptibility and a body of immortality, this is what that transformation will entail.

A swallowing up of the outer court and the Holy Place into the glory of the Holiest of Holies, which in the case of our study of the human body, it is the process of the spirit of the Lord releasing in our physical body a spiritual life that will create a new body, not flesh and blood as it is right now, but a body that is eternal, immortal in every sense. As it is in all truth concerning Christ and His plan of the ages, we must see the divine order of the progression of change throughout God's plan as given through the holy scriptures.

It is plain through studying the scriptures that the final stage of this great transformation of mankind is not an action that comes from the external and then works its way to the internal. The church is backwards in their understanding concerning the relationship that the Father has with His creation. The church thinks God is outside of them, even going so far as depicting Jesus as being off in outer space somewhere, biding His time until He comes to earth to set up His kingdom. By reason of this external perspective on Gods presence, they live and worship as though Jesus is off somewhere and only makes some kind of special engagement visitations to the believers, then goes away until another time of an external visitation.

The Truth is that He is not outside of us, He is dwelling, living, abiding, moving, blessing, lifting, healing, restoring, speaking from INSIDE of us! He has pitched His tent and we are that Tent! For anyone that has ever thought they heard an external voice of God speak to them, I want you to know that the Voice you heard was not external, it was internal, so real and so thunderous to your being that it seemed as though it was coming from an external source.

This kind of internal thunder of God's voice is so intimate, so indwelling that it fills our whole being with the SOUND of it. It is the ultimate in "Surround Sound", resounding to us from all directions, but emanating from a secret place of the Most High, deep within our being. The blessings in our lives flows from the inside out. Our outer man and the state and condition of our external life in this world is affected and blessed by the coming together of our inner man and the Christ that dwells within. Our inner man must be made whole so that our outer man will be whole.

We are as complex in our makeup as the Feasts of God's plan are complex in their makeup. The interplay between the distinct elements that make up our structure as the House of God is what causes us to either be divided and dual in our walk in God, or to be unified with God's plan and purpose for our lives and to live peacefully and gracefully with God and man.

Our spirit is wooing our soul to be married to it. Our soul is positioned in the middle between our spiritual man and our carnal man. The carnal man is constantly trying to draw our soul into its reasoning and actions, which the soul gives a certain soulish anointing and life to. Our spirit is constantly drawing the soul back into communion with Christ and the life of God.

In the times of the Feast of Tabernacles, our spirit will become one with our soul, which will in turn bring our body under the dominion of the marriage union of our heart and mind. Incorruptibility will be accomplished FIRST in the marriage and union of our spirit and soul, causing an inner wholeness from the union of our spirit with the spirit of Christ and then the subsequent union of our spirit in Christ with our soul, which will then illuminate our whole man with the incorruptible nature of the Father, which will then change our mortal body and fashion it like unto His own glorious Body. A chain reaction of nuclear fusion that will result in a New Creature.

To be continued..

By Robert D Torango
                                 

Cardinal,

Would it be possible for you to give this it's own thread by the title "The House That God Built" by Robert Torango so that it is easier to find and notice.

I think that would be great.  That way, when/if Bob posts another excerpt from his book, we can add it on and it will keep this current thread from being overly long.

Just a friendly suggestion......

Anne

Quote from: CardinalAh, but know this one thing beloved of the Lord, it is the time for the fullness of God to fill His House with His glory! That is why Tabernacles is so important for us and all mankind, for it is the time that the Shekinah Glory of God is no longer confined to an inner place of veils and curtains. It is now ready to be revealed in us with all of its glorious beauty and radiance, until the Holy Place and the Outer Court is filled with the holy presence of the Father. Then, there will be only ONE dwelling place, not 3 separate chambers, but one glorious tabernacle filled with the substance of God's eternal spirit.

17And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.

--2Sam 6


11In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

--Amos 9



14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.

--2 Sam 6

1The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

2For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

3Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

4He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

5He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

6This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

7Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

8Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

9Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

10Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

--Psa 24