Who hardened Pharoahs heart?

[guest6088]

I read this short article today...And it was so interesting hearing people trying to understand it!  (A lot of scripture-twisting going on!)

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

    And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21

    And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

    And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

    And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

    And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

    And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

    And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

    I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

    But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15

    And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

    And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

    Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

I find it odd that people still can't grasp that God (ALL) is us and we are God...I mean what else are we if not a part of everything?!!    :laugh:   :LH:
People wrestle with these contradictions which are so because they cannot be understood through physical/carnal minds... 

God did and he didn't!
God has no start or finish so...how?! - It's a paradox!  How can something with no start 'start'?
We don't have free will but we do.
God doesn't judge the world and neither does Jesus but the saints judge the world who have God's spirit and Christ in them so it really is God and Jesus judging yet it's still not!
One must 'be still...and know'.    :laugh:

[marie glen]

Reminds me of Romans 11:36 -
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen :dsunny:

"So then, He shows mercy to whom He wants, and He hardens whom He wants.[\i] - Romans 9:8.. I figure those He hardens, make the choice (for now) not to believe.. Like we did before faith came to us. Like 1 Corinthians 15:22-28
which i think goes with Matthew 13:33 - :The kingdom is like a woman working leaven into 3 lumps of dough - until all is leavened." The lumps/loaves/"measures of meal"/3harvests
     - "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

ROMANS 11:32,33,36 - "32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!... 36 For of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. :cloud9:

[marie glen]

P.S. - CROSS REFERENCE - Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

"Christ the Firstfruit.. 3 lumps..

Also goes into branches which were broken off - Jesus said "I am the vine, you are the branches, branches which bear no fruit are only good to be broken off and gathered to be burned, you know, for a bonfire, not hell, lol.

And here in Romans 11, is talking about Israel being branches broken off.. but which will be grafted back in. (So much for the 'bonfire'/fiery judgment being 'forever'!

[rosered]

  Great thoughts   Marie !    good study  Marc !,

Do not harden your heart    , that is to become stubborn  in your own   self reliance [wise in your own eyes  is blindness  ]  . not willing or pliable /easily influenced  by anything and stopping your ears from hearing , and faith comes by hearing  what the Holy Spirit is saying .

The Peril of Unbelief  Hebrews 3
...14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

15As it has been said: "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as you did in the rebellion."

16For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?...

I always think of the scriptures  , If so much as a beast touches the mountain it will be stoned , but if you read  it says the children   stopped up their ears from hearing what God was giving them  [ good gifts of the Holy Spirit  and guidance   , to teach them a better way than relying on their own ways and thoughts  by their own carnal   thinking /bellies  and food for thought , they feared the UNKNOWN GOD   ,  He was known to them except by their own images and thoughts they had  created in their own minds ...   God wanted them to know Him and depend on Him   totally , but they refused , but later on we see even God caused this  for a reason till the fulness of the gentiles [ other nations ]   will come in .   

  Hebrews 12 ...19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."...

  All these examples   written shows us how both  minds work against each other    as adversaries   to each other  .

I come to the conclusion  that the conscience and subconscience   cause the dividing   , as stumbling blocks to one another
  when we focus    on the inner man   and the outer man  and the ruling the  heart . God  is    asking  first place  always  , but  He  allows  circumstances   /positions   to rise   with a fact or condition connected with or relevant to an event or action.

creating    the reaping what you sow effects  .

A change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause. , if you do good    , incorruptible truth  results , you can be  Honest before God  and with yourself and others  as well ..I can see that LOVE  is the law  and what we must  all be measured by   and with and for   the greater good of everyone .

if you do evil   by actions and choices of those actions  corruption is   the fruit is of our doings .

being deceived , blind  to a fault  , not catching on  , some it is a lifestyle 
1.
dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

synonyms:   dishonesty, dishonest dealings, unscrupulousness, deceit, deception, duplicity, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, misconduct, lawbreaking, crime, criminality, delinquency, wrongdoing, villainy; More
2.
the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.

synonyms:   alteration, falsification, doctoring, manipulation, manipulating, fudging, adulteration, debasement,
degradation, abuse, subversion, misrepresentation, misapplication; rarevitiation

"these figures have been subject to corruption"

It is easy to put blame on others by judging their actions[choices ]   against your own actions [choices ] and reap the consequences  of our actions and choices  when we   act upon them  in a manner that is  pleasing to God or   try to justify our means
  which somes God does justify  and sometimes we are held  in contempt  , until we learn the lesson and God opens our eyes to  the error  of our choices  .

Learning to discern  ''spirits''   and what manner they come   in us as well as others .
  Jesus could discern   anyones thoughts and what they were thinking    just by conversing with them  , if they be of God  above   or  of the earthly  kind    and even the  below   kind .   

  Jesus told everyone to become wise as serpents   and harmless as doves    , when sent in as sheep among wolves 
  all these references  are of  animal  / beast like mentalities      that does help us to discern   the  different ''spirits'' breaths   working in   us all  / mankind   

  and  to play the victim role    or the victor role   is entirely  up to  our practicing  and discerning  and exercising our abilities   to know   the differences   and the consequences of acting   upon them .

Many times I should have kept quiet   and did not and those consequences   were important   in learning   by  a result or effect of an action or condition   that  made things worse and not better .

When reaping destruction and more emotional  drama   that could have been avoided   by  changing our minds   from the carnal one to the  mind of Christ   is a repentant   way of  working  out all things for the good of those whom Love the Lord and are called  .

Who has not been called according to His purpose  ???  ,  everyone and thing   works   Gods will and desire   , many times and ways without even knowing it . 

 

Tough love does not always work in our favor   ,

but I do believe  God uses tough love to make us  see the error of our doings sometimes  . 

Pharaoh   to me is a good example of that .

How many of us have been there and done that ?   :doh:

[guest6088]

P.S. - CROSS REFERENCE - Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

"Christ the Firstfruit.. 3 lumps..

Also goes into branches which were broken off - Jesus said "I am the vine, you are the branches, branches which bear no fruit are only good to be broken off and gathered to be burned, you know, for a bonfire, not hell, lol.

And here in Romans 11, is talking about Israel being branches broken off.. but which will be grafted back in. (So much for the 'bonfire'/fiery judgment being 'forever'!

Marie...Yes!
Burned by God's pure-ifying 'fire'...Unquenchable until all the rubbish (chaff) is gone!
And nobody is ever lost because God can graft even branches back onto a tree!

:HeartThrob:

[sheila]

Dan4;17  The decision is announced by messengers,the holy ones declare the verdict..SO THAT THE LIVING MAY KNOW THAT THE MOST

HIGH   IS SOVEREIGN OVER THE KINGDOMS OF MEN AND GIVES THEM TO ANYONE HE WISHES,AND SETS OVER THEM

THE BASEST OF MEN.


  v 35  ALL THE PEOPLES OF THE EARTH ARE REGARDING AS NOTHING,HE DOES AS HE PLEASES WITH THE POWERS OF HEAVEN

   AND THE PEOPLES OF THE EARTH


   NO ONE CAN HOLD BACK HIS HAND,OR SAY TO HIM,'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"


Isaaih 10;24 O'MYpeople who live in Zion,do not be afraid of the Assyrians who beat you with a rod and lift up a club against you,

as Egypt did.

Very soon my anger against you will end,and my wrath will be directed to their destruction.


  Isaaih 10; 12  When the Lord has finished all His work against Mt Zion and Jerusalem,He will say,'I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF ASSYRIA

FOR THE WILLFUL PRIDE OF HIS HEART,AND THE HAUGHTY LOOK IN HIS EYES...


    For he says...'By the strength of my hand I have done this,and by my wisdom because I have understanding.I removed the boundaries

of the nations,I plundered their treasures,like a mighty one I subdued their kings.  AS ONE REACHES INTO A NEST,SO MY HAND

REACHED FOR THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS;AS MEN GATHER ABANDONED EGGS,SO I GATHERED ALL THE COUNTRIES;

NOT ONE FLAPPED A WING OR OPENED IT'S MOUTH TO CHIRP.v 12 DOES THE AXE RAISE ITSELF AGAINST HE WHO SWINGS IT?


Isaaih 42;8  I AM THE LORD,THAT IS MY NAME,I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER OR MY PRAISE TO IDOLS

  what's He saying?He alone rules..if He hands some one over to satan's will for His purpose..that is what is going to happen...



   He uses evil as a'tool" to teach us.The adversary is in error..when he thinks he did anything by his own hand by his own wisdom

[choice]and we,too,are in error if we think so,too! whether God wields an evil tool..no pride/boasting..or Jesus/no pride boasting

Jesus would not even allow the people to call him Good.He credited it to the Father..though he knew what he was sent for.


Psalms 75;5 Do not lift your horns against heaven,do not speak with out-stretched neck..........

No one from the east or the west or the dessert can exalt a man..BUT IT IS GOD WHO JUDGES;HE BRINGS ONE DOWN

HE EXALTS ANOTHER. :girlheart:

     

[guest6088]

  Great thoughts   Marie !    good study  Marc !,

Do not harden your heart    , that is to become stubborn  in your own   self reliance [wise in your own eyes  is blindness  ]  . not willing or pliable /easily influenced  by anything and stopping your ears from hearing , and faith comes by hearing  what the Holy Spirit is saying .

The Peril of Unbelief  Hebrews 3
...14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

15As it has been said: "Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as you did in the rebellion."

16For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?...

I always think of the scriptures  , If so much as a beast touches the mountain it will be stoned , but if you read  it says the children   stopped up their ears from hearing what God was giving them  [ good gifts of the Holy Spirit  and guidance   , to teach them a better way than relying on their own ways and thoughts  by their own carnal   thinking /bellies  and food for thought , they feared the UNKNOWN GOD   ,  He was known to them except by their own images and thoughts they had  created in their own minds ...   God wanted them to know Him and depend on Him   totally , but they refused , but later on we see even God caused this  for a reason till the fulness of the gentiles [ other nations ]   will come in .   

  Hebrews 12 ...19to a trumpet blast or to a voice that made its hearers beg that no further word be spoken. 20For they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned." 21The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."...

  All these examples   written shows us how both  minds work against each other    as adversaries   to each other  .

I come to the conclusion  that the conscience and subconscience   cause the dividing   , as stumbling blocks to one another
  when we focus    on the inner man   and the outer man  and the ruling the  heart . God  is    asking  first place  always  , but  He  allows  circumstances   /positions   to rise   with a fact or condition connected with or relevant to an event or action.

creating    the reaping what you sow effects  .

A change which is a result or consequence of an action or other cause. , if you do good    , incorruptible truth  results , you can be  Honest before God  and with yourself and others  as well ..I can see that LOVE  is the law  and what we must  all be measured by   and with and for   the greater good of everyone .

if you do evil   by actions and choices of those actions  corruption is   the fruit is of our doings .

being deceived , blind  to a fault  , not catching on  , some it is a lifestyle 
1.
dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

synonyms:   dishonesty, dishonest dealings, unscrupulousness, deceit, deception, duplicity, double-dealing, fraud, fraudulence, misconduct, lawbreaking, crime, criminality, delinquency, wrongdoing, villainy; More
2.
the process by which something, typically a word or expression, is changed from its original use or meaning to one that is regarded as erroneous or debased.

synonyms:   alteration, falsification, doctoring, manipulation, manipulating, fudging, adulteration, debasement,
degradation, abuse, subversion, misrepresentation, misapplication; rarevitiation

"these figures have been subject to corruption"

It is easy to put blame on others by judging their actions[choices ]   against your own actions [choices ] and reap the consequences  of our actions and choices  when we   act upon them  in a manner that is  pleasing to God or   try to justify our means
  which somes God does justify  and sometimes we are held  in contempt  , until we learn the lesson and God opens our eyes to  the error  of our choices  .

Learning to discern  "spirits"   and what manner they come   in us as well as others .
  Jesus could discern   anyones thoughts and what they were thinking    just by conversing with them  , if they be of God  above   or  of the earthly  kind    and even the  below   kind .   

  Jesus told everyone to become wise as serpents   and harmless as doves    , when sent in as sheep among wolves 
  all these references  are of  animal  / beast like mentalities      that does help us to discern   the  different "spirits" breaths   working in   us all  / mankind   

  and  to play the victim role    or the victor role   is entirely  up to  our practicing  and discerning  and exercising our abilities   to know   the differences   and the consequences of acting   upon them .

Many times I should have kept quiet   and did not and those consequences   were important   in learning   by  a result or effect of an action or condition   that  made things worse and not better .

When reaping destruction and more emotional  drama   that could have been avoided   by  changing our minds   from the carnal one to the  mind of Christ   is a repentant   way of  working  out all things for the good of those whom Love the Lord and are called  .

Who has not been called according to His purpose  ???  ,  everyone and thing   works   Gods will and desire   , many times and ways without even knowing it . 

 

Tough love does not always work in our favor   ,

but I do believe  God uses tough love to make us  see the error of our doings sometimes  . 

Pharaoh   to me is a good example of that .

How many of us have been there and done that ?   :doh:

Great reading there!  :HeartThrob:

I think of how someone hardens their heart...yet at the same time it is God hardening it.
Anything we do is still part of the 'overall plan'.
...Nothing can separate us from the Love of God.
God gives us the 'desires of our hearts'.
I also think of how God 'gave people over to a reprobate mind'. 

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Those people 'chose' this and God gave them over to it, but it's STILL part of the overall plan.

Bottom line is nobody can get lost.  Down here we see all the trouble in the world and pain and suffering and everything seems so tangled and mixed up...But it really isn't.  God/Love will make it cool again.
I think of Amy Purdys experience of death...The girl lost her legs and said when she passed on she was told by three men (on the other side)..."There will be ups and downs, but just know that it will all make sense in the end". 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmcFLZ_kIc
(20 minutes in...)

...It will all make sense in the end...  I'm glad to hear that.... So glad!!!  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

Isaaih 47;6I was wroth with my people and polluted My inheritance.I GAVE THEM INTO YOUR HAND,AND YOU SHOWED THEM NO MERCY

     EVEN ON THE AGED YOU LAID A VERY HEAVY YOKE. You said,'I WILL CONTINUE FOREVER-the eternal queen,

but you did not consider these things or reflect on what might happen.[the falloff Babylon]   :2c:

[guest6088]

Dan4;17  The decision is announced by messengers,the holy ones declare the verdict..SO THAT THE LIVING MAY KNOW THAT THE MOST

HIGH   IS SOVEREIGN OVER THE KINGDOMS OF MEN AND GIVES THEM TO ANYONE HE WISHES,AND SETS OVER THEM

THE BASEST OF MEN.


  v 35  ALL THE PEOPLES OF THE EARTH ARE REGARDING AS NOTHING,HE DOES AS HE PLEASES WITH THE POWERS OF HEAVEN

   AND THE PEOPLES OF THE EARTH


   NO ONE CAN HOLD BACK HIS HAND,OR SAY TO HIM,'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?"


Isaaih 10;24 O'MYpeople who live in Zion,do not be afraid of the Assyrians who beat you with a rod and lift up a club against you,

as Egypt did.

Very soon my anger against you will end,and my wrath will be directed to their destruction.


  Isaaih 10; 12  When the Lord has finished all His work against Mt Zion and Jerusalem,He will say,'I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF ASSYRIA

FOR THE WILLFUL PRIDE OF HIS HEART,AND THE HAUGHTY LOOK IN HIS EYES...


    For he says...'By the strength of my hand I have done this,and by my wisdom because I have understanding.I removed the boundaries

of the nations,I plundered their treasures,like a mighty one I subdued their kings.  AS ONE REACHES INTO A NEST,SO MY HAND

REACHED FOR THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS;AS MEN GATHER ABANDONED EGGS,SO I GATHERED ALL THE COUNTRIES;

NOT ONE FLAPPED A WING OR OPENED IT'S MOUTH TO CHIRP.v 12 DOES THE AXE RAISE ITSELF AGAINST HE WHO SWINGS IT?


Isaaih 42;8  I AM THE LORD,THAT IS MY NAME,I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER OR MY PRAISE TO IDOLS

  what's He saying?He alone rules..if He hands some one over to satan's will for His purpose..that is what is going to happen...



   He uses evil as a'tool" to teach us.The adversary is in error..when he thinks he did anything by his own hand by his own wisdom

[choice]and we,too,are in error if we think so,too! whether God wields an evil tool..no pride/boasting..or Jesus/no pride boasting

Jesus would not even allow the people to call him Good.He credited it to the Father..though he knew what he was sent for.


Psalms 75;5 Do not lift your horns against heaven,do not speak with out-stretched neck..........

No one from the east or the west or the dessert can exalt a man..BUT IT IS GOD WHO JUDGES;HE BRINGS ONE DOWN

HE EXALTS ANOTHER. :girlheart:

   

I get what you are saying. 
You may even consider me Satanic and you'd be welcome to say so if you believe that.
Almost every church I ever entered called me the same thing and Christians have called me it for decades...It doesn't matter to me because I know they were wrong and I've had things from God when they haven't.
I was one of the few that never believed contrary to apocatastasis because I believed God...(Love) and not people...Nor could I have brought myself to ever worship an eternal torturer in the first place... Satanic as people often think of me!

I see plainly from the bible that God hardens hearts yet the person hardens their heart...The two working together. - That's what is written and it's what I see.  The rest is interpretation.
There was a time I considered others more 'spiritual' than me or had more knowledge but I know now that isn't the case. - I've seen into the lives of people over the years who believe themselves saints...and I haven't been all that impressed.
All I could do then was ask God to guide me which He does.

The bible makes it clear that God judges, yet doesn't...Jesus judges yet doesn't.
...A huge spiritual paradox..."It is and it isn't".  No start or finish.
Men and God work 'together' because they are 'together'.

GEN 18:
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

I believe if he had asked God NOT to destroy it altogther, God would have listened.  In fact I honestly believe God would have been very pleased to hear that.
Man and God working together...That's what I believe.
If someone wants to 'accuse me' of being 'Satanic' for that belief then come right ahead.
I'm not going to apologise for looking for answers.  Nor am I going to be made to feel 'evil' for doing so or being made to feel 'Satanic' because I believe what's plainly written.

I believe I can do nothing of myself.  But at the same time I believe I'm part of God (a higher 'self' in a sense) so that I am 'cooperating' with the universe (God/All)  If the universe were not cooperating I dare say it would not exist. - How can a temple stand that's divided against itself etc...? 

Sometimes you post a lot of scripture and I could just as easily post the same in return which is contradictory to what you post...such is the paradoxical nature of spiritual matters. - For every yin in the bible there seems to be a yang, which is why there are 40 odd thousand denominations most likely all of which disagree.

I feel I get much more out of actual conversing with people without quoting pages of scripture which i've read a thousand times...Because the thing is...People can read something a thousand times and still come to different understandings of it (I again think of the thousands of sects and denominations).
I remember reading someones thoughts on the parable of the good samaritain...they twisted it to turn it into an evil story! - The word is there to discover the secrets of hearts.

Love is what unites and that seems to be the issue as far as I can tell with having any real communion with believers over the years...People seem too focused on what divides rather than unites.
For example, two people can believe 99% of the same thing but the 1% the other doesn't agree on the other person will focus on and call the other person 'satanic' because of it...
...This has been in my view the error of the 'church' since it was established... Division rather than unity.

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[sheila]

? think you are 'santanic?"I was showing in the scriptures where it is by the will of God that any man be handed over to the adversary

for any purpose....and like you so often say'use it for the good" 

Good grief...ask my sister Rose if I didn't say about you, now there is a man taught of heaven? :dontknow:

[guest6088]

? think you are 'santanic?"I was showing in the scriptures where it is by the will of God that any man be handed over to the adversary

for any purpose....and like you so often say'use it for the good" 

Good grief...ask my sister Rose if I didn't say about you, now there is a man taught of heaven? :dontknow:

This is the problem with text, I'm not having a go, I just wanted to make my stance clear incase there was any confusion about my true thoughts.  I'm not here for praise or the opposite, just seeking answers.
I've been called Satanic so many times by religious folks...Its a common event for me, so I just wanted people to know they are welcome to think (and say) that without me getting upset or any 'division' from my end...Because I really dont' feel it.  I know I'm an honest seeker, though certainly far from any sort of perfection lol.

With my beliefs...The way I see it you are me so why would I want division or any upset?  I don't.  I'm looking for unity...and the only way to find that is to ... look...  That means finding out what people are really think and what they are really like.  That's the problem with text...I was trying to understand what you meant and relay my true thoughts.

Sheila...Please believe that I didn't mean to cause any upset.  I wrote that to clear up any dissalusions about me.  I thought you may have been hinting that I believed I could do 'something in and of myself' (without God) in a very subtle way... But I don't believe that.  I do believe man and God are in cooperation though.   

[sheila]

ps and it is also by the will of God to whom/when He shows mercy...free gift of righteousness[itisnot by ourown hand,either]


hope this clears it up. Now,as far as the scriptures I posted of what is written...if you have a problem with them,feel free to speak

with your Father about it.He says He alone rules and exalts and puts down men as He pleases. Perhaps you feel He does not have

authority to bind up,say Pharoah,in unbelief,if He wills..or the Pharisees,sadducees etc.?

   Never-the-less,I am not against you,but for you. :girlheart:

[sheila]

And GOD IS TOO,FOR US ALL... :friendstu: :girlheart:

[guest6088]

ps and it is also by the will of God to whom/when He shows mercy...free gift of righteousness[itisnot by ourown hand,either]


hope this clears it up. Now,as far as the scriptures I posted of what is written...if you have a problem with them,feel free to speak

with your Father about it.He says He alone rules and exalts and puts down men as He pleases. Perhaps you feel He does not have

authority to bind up,say Pharoah,in unbelief,if He wills..or the Pharisees,sadducees etc.?

   Never-the-less,I am not against you,but for you. :girlheart:

I don't have a problem with the scriptures, but (as I've said) rather with how people interpret them. 
(Once again, check out the thousands of denominations and sects to see how that turns out!).
I've never seen two people in agreement over what most of the bible has to say.  Translation errors can be blamed for a lot of that, of course.

...So...Posting pages and pages of scipture seems pointless to me unless the two (me and you in this instance) are in agreement with what is written therein...That we both understand it. - That is the sort of unity I'm seeking and the only way I can find it is through truth.  (Me truthfully relaying my thoughts to another person who is also truthfully relaying theres).
There is no point beating around the bush, but rather to get down to the truth...Right down to what divides so that we can unite.

Of course I agree that God has the ability to bind people in unbelief...But at the same time they do it to themselves.  ...I believe men and God work together (it's biblical) and again it's because of the paradox that we are all part of the entire whole I believe.

My belief is the only one that explains how we 'dont have a free will' and 'how we do have a free will' (at the same time).  Those who think otherwise contradict.  :laughing7:  There are so many contradictions that the only way they can be explained is through paradox... 'They are and are not at the same time'. 
God (who has no start or end) is a paradox.  So anything to do with God has to be a paradox also since He is Himself 'a paradox'.

:girlheart:

[sheila]

 :2c:whenHe binds someone up in unbelief[like Pharoah]that man[pharaoh]is blinded and deafened by satan,from hearing and seeing...

  the 'Word of God" to him.That man continues on in 'willful sin" because the adversary/satan is doing his will and works in the man.

  That is the reason Jesus prayed,Father forgive them they KNOW NOT what they are doing.

If we had KNOWN He was the Lord of Glory[blind/deaf as to whom the God of Israel/or Jesus Christ was.]

   Can we be a fellow worker with God?Yes..if we are not blind or deaf and bound up in unbelief?

ifyou were blind,you would have no sin..but because you say you see..your sin remains[still bound up in unbelief]


  I look forward to the time when all the deaf shall hear what they had notheard, and all the blind  shall see what they had notseen.

when He makes a believer out of everybody.

  I did not realize that you see it as free will/choice of man...but I leave you with this.......Romans ch 9;10-21

this is enough for you to know my mindset on it. Iwon'tspeakany more about it.Debates get nowhere..and are prohibited regarding

'freewill"         :girlheart:

[Dandelion]

I read this short article today...And it was so interesting hearing people trying to understand it!  (A lot of scripture-twisting going on!)

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

    And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21

    And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

    And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

    And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

    And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

    And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

    And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

    I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

    But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15

    And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

    And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

    Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

I find it odd that people still can't grasp that God (ALL) is us and we are God...I mean what else are we if not a part of everything?!!    :laugh:   :LH:
People wrestle with these contradictions which are so because they cannot be understood through physical/carnal minds... 

God did and he didn't!
God has no start or finish so...how?! - It's a paradox!  How can something with no start 'start'?
We don't have free will but we do.
God doesn't judge the world and neither does Jesus but the saints judge the world who have God's spirit and Christ in them so it really is God and Jesus judging yet it's still not!
One must 'be still...and know'.    :laugh:

This topic can be a bit puzzling to me.

But, then I remember that God made us. He knows us through and though. He knew what we would do. He planned everything around each of our decisions and actions. He knew and knows everything that will ever happen, and how it is all interrelated. So, I suppose, he made us to respond a certain way, to certain experiences. And, He knew when those experiences would occur.

So, when I look at it that way, I realize both can be true. It is not a sudden, last minute decision. It has all been perfectly orchestrated, since before time. We are controlling it by being who we were made to be......by God.

D.

[guest6088]

:2c:whenHe binds someone up in unbelief[like Pharoah]that man[pharaoh]is blinded and deafened by satan,from hearing and seeing...

  the 'Word of God" to him.That man continues on in 'willful sin" because the adversary/satan is doing his will and works in the man.

  That is the reason Jesus prayed,Father forgive them they KNOW NOT what they are doing.

If we had KNOWN He was the Lord of Glory[blind/deaf as to whom the God of Israel/or Jesus Christ was.]

   Can we be a fellow worker with God?Yes..if we are not blind or deaf and bound up in unbelief?

ifyou were blind,you would have no sin..but because you say you see..your sin remains[still bound up in unbelief]


  I look forward to the time when all the deaf shall hear what they had notheard, and all the blind  shall see what they had notseen.

when He makes a believer out of everybody.

  I did not realize that you see it as free will/choice of man...but I leave you with this.......Romans ch 9;10-21

this is enough for you to know my mindset on it. Iwon'tspeakany more about it.Debates get nowhere..and are prohibited regarding

'freewill"         :girlheart:

Once again you have taken what I'm saying out of context...I've said (three times now) that I don't believe in free will/choice of man, but I do. - It's a paradox.
I believe we choose our 'role' in this life before we come also (due to evidence from nde experiencers and my own experience).  It's all God doing the work yet we are all part of God so it's us too. 
Being 'forced' to do something isn't love.  Cooperation (Unity)/Working together is what it's all about. 
A 'disharmonious' universe wouldn't even exist...How can a temple divided stand?
I can see we are in agreement...But you seemingly cannot...And contradicting what I say isn't helping, nor is calling me Satanic for (seemingly) having a difference of opinion as I'm starting to realize you probably did mean and I was right first time?

Debates get nowhere

Why do you debate on here day in day out then?  What is the purpose?
I totally disagree...Debates are useful...Arguments and taking what people say out of context is not useful though.

[GodIsLove]

And GOD IS TOO,FOR US ALL... :friendstu: :girlheart:

Such a simple statement, something people say often...

But when you actually believe and understand that statement it is enough to bring you to your knees in tears of love...

God is for us all...

[guest6088]

I read this short article today...And it was so interesting hearing people trying to understand it!  (A lot of scripture-twisting going on!)

Who hardened the Pharaoh's heart?

God did.

    And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21

    And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3

    And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13

    And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1

    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20

    But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27

    And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10

    And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4

    And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8

    I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

The Pharaoh did.

    But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15

    And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

    And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34

    Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

I find it odd that people still can't grasp that God (ALL) is us and we are God...I mean what else are we if not a part of everything?!!    :laugh:   :LH:
People wrestle with these contradictions which are so because they cannot be understood through physical/carnal minds... 

God did and he didn't!
God has no start or finish so...how?! - It's a paradox!  How can something with no start 'start'?
We don't have free will but we do.
God doesn't judge the world and neither does Jesus but the saints judge the world who have God's spirit and Christ in them so it really is God and Jesus judging yet it's still not!
One must 'be still...and know'.    :laugh:

This topic can be a bit puzzling to me.

But, then I remember that God made us. He knows us through and though. He knew what we would do. He planned everything around each of our decisions and actions. He knew and knows everything that will ever happen, and how it is all interrelated. So, I suppose, he made us to respond a certain way, to certain experiences. And, He knew when those experiences would occur.

So, when I look at it that way, I realize both can be true. It is not a sudden, last minute decision. It has all been perfectly orchestrated, since before time. We are controlling it by being who we were made to be......by God.

D.

I believe it's puzzling because of the paradox of it.
...But I believe you explained it well.

I believe for God to know everything and to 'be God') it is because He is everything.  That 'everything' includes us.  So we ourselves are part of God.  All working together...  Our will and His.  His spirit resides outside space and time where it all 'makes sense' but we are made up of God's spirit and unite with that.  Yet still individual, yet one.

[jabcat]

Marc you asked for the thread to be deleted.  I think it would be OK to just lock it.

Quick note - as far as debates, they're actually not allowed on TM, per se.  Definitely more of a respectful discussion/reasoning together encouraged..(with "debates" in this instance being defined as arguments, i.e., continually/incessantly trying to prove a subjective/interpretive point.)

So I'll lock it, and if anyone has any compelling reason it needs to be reopened, especially if there's any connection to UR, please IM me.  Thanks.