I found this on another website and thought it was an uplifting read. Enjoy!!
Which God are you serving?
The god of Calvinism sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for his elect few only, and he predestined only his elect to be saved. This must also mean that he predestined, knowingly and willingly, to cast the vast majority of humanity (the non-elect) into hell to be tortured forever. This makes the god of Calvinism an evil god, infinitely and unimaginably more evil than Hitler could ever be.
The god of Arminianism sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for all people, and he wills all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved, but he has made himself weak and helpless to save all people by allowing man's free will to override his will in salvation. Against his will, the god of Arminianism is forced to throw the vast majority of humanity into hell to be tortured forever, because for one reason or another, they failed to accept Jesus Christ in this life before they died. Even worse than that, the god of Arminianism knowingly and willingly created human beings with the full foreknowledge that the vast majority of them would reject salvation and end up being tortured in hell forever. This makes the god of Arminianism both an evil god, as evil as the god of Calvinism, and a weak god who allows the free will of fallen man to override his will in salvation.
The God of the Bible is the one true Father God Yahveh Elohim who sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ Yeshua Elohim, to sacrificially die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Jesus Christ died for all people; past, present and future, and God wills all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. He has unlimited love and power to save all people in His time and in His order, extending beyond this age. This makes the one true God of the Bible the all-powerful, all-loving, wise, just, merciful, forgiving and gracious Father God.
Conclusion
Make no mistake about it. You are profoundly affected by how you understand these three beliefs: Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism. Your understanding of God's sovereignty, His love, His justice, His righteousness, His forgiveness and His grace are all fundamentally governed and coloured by each belief system.
People who believe that God will punish unbelievers in hell forever or annihilate them limit God's sovereignty, power, love, forgiveness, grace and the very Gospel of Jesus Christ itself. They deny that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is indeed the Saviour of the world.
From: http://www.godsplanforall.com/calvinismarminianismanduniversalism
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 10, 2015, 06:06:27 PM
Make no mistake about it. You are profoundly affected by how you understand these three beliefs: Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism.
So very true.
:dsunny:
Yes, what we believe is very important. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Believing a lie won't do that.
Quote from: bushy on August 10, 2015, 07:20:29 PM
Yes, what we believe is very important. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." Believing a lie won't do that.
Exactly. I was a Calvinist for a long long time. I thought I was free - but now I can see I was cynical and an doctrinal judgementalist. Bad fruit. :punish:
knowledge puffs up,love builds up. He who does not gather with me..scatters. Some just have 30 fold..revelation of the width/depth/heigth
of Christ. Some 60 some 100.Think not that God gave us the knowledge of the salvation of all men..that we judge men.
Christ is NOT divided...men by their knowledge..become puffed up..and think themselves something in Christ..and set their brother's at
nought. The House of prayer for all men became divided....through knowledge puffing up...wisdom would have built up the house.
ex; if I visit an apostolic church....some...who think there is more than one God...and does not realize that there is only one true God
....would wrongfully judge me of idolatry against God.[meat from an idol when an idol is nothing] Missing the mark of love and
not realizing that those in that congregation..may just be 30 fold in their revelation of Christ.......and would be just as guilty of the
same sin/lack they were acusing such of.
the beast that destroys the harlot..is not the spirit of God or Christ...it is wicked...but it is God who who uses evil for the good of
those who love Him. The spirit of Christ says to the woman caught in adultery...go and sin no more..lest something worse befall you
if a beast but touch the mount of God,he is to be stoned to death[with the same judgement ye judge/ye shall be judged]
Rev 22;18-20
the kingdom of heaven is like..a woman that took a measure of leavening[faith] and hid it in 3 measures of flour..until all was leavened.
Daniel prophesied ..the saints were overcome...first the jewish believers[who rejected Christ] then christendom[who divided Christ]
.........that all be saved and no flesh boast. Yes...those sinner men out there in the world..that the churches preached et and ed
against..are recievers of grace from God each in his order...3rd measure=all.
and in the last days I shall pour out my spirit on ALL FLESH.
some become over-righteous,some-over wicked,some over-comers. Greater is Christ that is in you..then he who is in the world.
Quote from: sheila on August 10, 2015, 07:44:11 PM
Christ is NOT divided...
:iagree: True - but the so called "CHURCH" is seriously divided.
you can have 100 fold faith[salvation of all men] 100 fold knowledge[of depth/height/width of God] but without 100 fold love
you are but a clanging cymbol. do you not know that Israel was blinded until the fullness of the gentiles come in..and all Israel will
be saved? and so too, Christendom was divided[failed in flesh] that all[3rd measure recieve grace] and all have been bound up in sin
that mercy shall be shown to all?
though they be as an enemy[et and ed]for the sake of the gospel[ur/us] yet they are precious to God.
in the house of prayer/temple arrangement as a shadow of the heavenly reality..there is the outer court,inner court and Holy of Holies
God's throne/mercy seat/Christ in your heart...in this house of prayer for all men.
Quote from: sheila on August 10, 2015, 08:02:37 PM
you are but a clanging cymbol.
Ahhhh......but I prefer to think of myself as a bass drum. :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
:laugh: I'm just wanting us all to push past the resentment of Christendom..and to forgive any mistreatment harm..as He commands
they know not what they do..anymore than we did..when we were in it. Or may even still be doing..when we try and limit the depth/width
heighth of Christ's sacrifice to anything less than all. :friendstu:
Quote from: sheila on August 10, 2015, 08:15:08 PM
:laugh: I'm just wanting us all to push past the resentment of Christendom..and to forgive any mistreatment harm..as He commands
they know not what they do..anymore than we did..when we were in it. Or may even still be doing..when we try and limit the depth/width
heighth of Christ's sacrifice to anything less than all. :friendstu:
Yes - you are right of course. :iagree: Thank you for the encouragement. :friendstu:
so glad you are not offended...I don't always spit out the right way..what I'm trying to say. I botch it. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ed on August 10, 2015, 06:56:48 PM
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 10, 2015, 06:06:27 PM
Make no mistake about it. You are profoundly affected by how you understand these three beliefs: Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism.
So very true.
:dsunny:
:iagree:
:cloud9: Amen, Sheila, good word. :thumbsup: Good to keep in mind when so many things grieve the Spirit in us daily....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 10, 2015, 09:23:51 PM
:cloud9: Amen, Sheila, good word. :thumbsup: Good to keep in mind when so many things grieve the Spirit in us daily....
Being a new "UR Convert" it is so easy for me to think theology war.....which is what I got as a Calvinist, and my friends will certainly think I have lost my mind if I come out of the closet so to speak.
Anyway, thank you Sheila for the restoration. :thumbsup: I repent and want the love of Christ to be shed apart in my heart, even towards those that may persecute me for my change in eschatology. :punish:
Personally, I agree that we should not be resentful of Christianity. However, insofar as what you actually said, I don't think you need to repent of that. If you had some ulterior motive maybe.
What you did was compare theologies to expose the dreadful consequences of each, and to say that we are affected by what we believe. All true.
You conclude by saying, " People who believe that God will punish unbelievers in hell forever or annihilate them limit God's sovereignty, power, love, forgiveness, grace and the very Gospel of Jesus Christ itself. They deny that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is indeed the Saviour of the world. "
I don't see anything untrue about that or anything that led me to think you were motivated by resentment. In fact, it sounds like something Gary Amirault would write. Great OP. You should be encouraged for standing up for the truth, rather than rebuked.
Quote from: sheila on August 10, 2015, 08:15:08 PM
:laugh: I'm just wanting us all to push past the resentment of Christendom..and to forgive any mistreatment harm..as He commands
they know not what they do..anymore than we did..when we were in it. Or may even still be doing..when we try and limit the depth/width
heighth of Christ's sacrifice to anything less than all. :friendstu:
Amen sheila,
We only know what God has given us. They are here for a reason that I don't understand and sometimes get frustrated at but one has to keep in mind that even we don't know all the truth.
CHB
Quote from: Seth on August 10, 2015, 09:42:21 PM
I don't see anything untrue about that or anything that led me to think you were motivated by resentment. In fact, it sounds like something Gary Amirault would write. Great OP. You should be encouraged for standing up for the truth, rather than rebuked.
:cloud9: My :2c: I personally didn't take it as a rebuke at all, anymore than I took the original post to be detrimental. Just two sides of the same coin, bringing balance? :dontknow:
Yeah, I don't fundamentally disagree with either side. I just don't think he should feel that he said anything worthy of repentance. That's up to him, I just wanted to provide some encouragement in standing for the truth he spoke which is not easy especially in the Calvinism culture.
I just do not want to seem divisive. A theological debate can easily get tempers going. I do hold some theological tension in my blood it seems, so it rang true with me.
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 10, 2015, 10:03:52 PM
I just do not want to seem divisive. A theological debate can easily get tempers going. I do hold some theological tension in my blood it seems, so it rang true with me.
If you have some resentments or tension then by all means repent if you are led. Just know that I was blessed by your OP
BTW - I still go to this church with the Calvinistic flavor. My son is an associate pastor there. This is going to be tough when I tell them my change in eschatology. I can remember them calling Rob Bell a heretic. I didn't know what they were talking about - then. Now I do. And Rob Bell just pojked about the issue. I am dogmatic about it. Oh boy. Pray for me. At least my wife agrees with me.
Trust me, I have been there too. I lost friends, was called a heretic and removed from fellowship. You will be in my thoughts, and I greatly respect your passion and willingness. I was lucky to have a wife that agrees too... :LH:
You have a safe place to land here.
actually, I wrote my post on this only 'Which God are you serving" Hey,I been there,come out of that.....that sentence alone..infers
charges/accusations of adultery. I come from a history of 'we serve the one true God,everyone else but us are idolators against God!"
the very warring theology thing sftt spoke of. And I,too, personally had to repent and overcome my own resentment against the
spiritual harm/damage I suffered" HE, is refining all of that out of us! so we can be useful unto Him.
now,lets not neglect all the posts in the past on the board when we had proof in the posts of this very attitude being exhibited
I've read em,youv'e read em...I may of even wrote some of em..even if I didn't write them..I'm sure I was in agreement with
them at times.
I myself hated the harlot at times in my heart!!!I exposed her nakedness too!..I agreed with the beast that she was a hypocrite and
was more than happy to condemn her!
that is the way of things.....the two wittness's at the end of their testimony were overcome and killed of the beast...and lay
dead 3 days....til....the spirit of life in Christ entered them..and they stood on their feet.....and a voice in heaven said......
'COME UP HERE!" my thoughts are not your thoughts...My ways are much higher!
....
I agree, Sheila, there is an understandable anger and frustration that can come if trying to spread the gospel in a world that hates it, and we must be guarded about that. I saw "which God are you serving" as a reminder that Paul spoke of "another Jesus" and "another Gospel." So I saw those words mirroring what was already spoken by the Apostles. I didn't take it as a condemnation, at least not according to the words themselves. :2c:
:thumbsup: two sides of the same judgement/salvation coin/talent..........
:dsunny:
My sentiments exactly Sheila ... LOVE Covers a MULTITUDE of sins
1Peter 4
PROOF .. Did not Jesus take care of many a multitudes in the WORD and still is ?
Living for God's Glory
...7The end of all things is near;
therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
8Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
9Be hospitable to one another without complaint.... :HeartThrob:
beware,lest ye bite and devour[consume] one another. Sometimes I just wonder if that is what it takes..for the sin in the flesh.carnal/beastly
to be consumed in all of us...leaving a valley of nothing but very dry bones all scattered[thirsty/dry bones] and a voice saying
'Come,all ye thirsty,take freely the water of life" And then He by His spirit..joins bone to bone..clothes with ligaments/flesh on,
cause to stand up..and enter the Holy city.Flesh of His flesh,bone of His bone
O',my people..I am going to open your graves and bring you UP from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
Then you,my people,will know that I am the Lord,when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my spirit
in you and you will live..and I will settled you in your own land.
Praise Christ..the anointed one..and saviour...the great grave-robber!!!!! O'death,I shall be thy plague!!
:cloud9: My :2c: Bones = no flesh left on them, the first veil of our flesh rent by laying all we are on the altar.
DRY bones = no spirit left, the second veil of His "flesh" (which is spirit) rent by laying down all our crowns at His feet, just like He laid down all Father had given Him at Father's feet.
Can these bones live? Yes! There can't be a resurrection until there's a death. Pick up your cross and follow Me. Blessings....
Before there was life, someone spoke.
wonderful!!!!
sheila and hft, I agree the "system" is in a bit of disarray. Lots of error mixed with truth (in all of us, to varying degrees).
After several years bouncing around from close to orthodoxy, to rejection of much of orthodoxy (and accompanying bitter feelings [to my shame]), and now somewhere in between, here's where I am now; anyone who trusts in Jesus as savior is my brother or sister. Also, as long as someone is looking to the God who is the god of Abraham and the Father of Jesus, they're looking to the true God. We may certainly have different levels of understanding of Him and how He works, but it's the same God/YHWH/Father. :2c:
My own beliefs are a mixture of what might be termed in part, "calvinistic (election, security of the believer, God working all things according to His will)/Christ-centered/cross-accomplished/scripture-founded Ultimate Reconciliation of creation back to God". (that may be why it's hard for me to label myself :). Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2015, 01:52:18 AM
sheila and hft, I agree the "system" is in a bit of disarray. Lots of error mixed with truth (in all of us, to varying degrees).
After several years bouncing around from close to orthodoxy, to rejection of much of orthodoxy (and accompanying bitter feelings [to my shame]), and now somewhere in between, here's where I am now; anyone who trusts in Jesus as savior is my brother or sister. Also, as long as someone is looking to the God who is the god of Abraham and the Father of Jesus, they're looking to the true God. We may certainly have different levels of understanding of Him and how He works, but it's the same God/YHWH/Father. :2c:
My own beliefs are a mixture of what might be termed in part, "calvinistic (election, security of the believer, God working all things according to His will)/Christ-centered/cross-accomplished/scripture-founded Ultimate Reconciliation of creation back to God". (that may be why it's hard for me to label myself :). Blessings.
Hi James
I agree it is so good to be honest and sincere and mostly LOVING towards all , whom ever they may be
praying for your enemies was one of the hardest things for me at first , but it has become so much more less a chore , than before
I considered it impossible at first , but the Lord does soften our hearts towards everyone when exercising this kind of faith
I can sure hate the evil and sin in anyone but especially within my own self the most
One thing for sure I will never pretend to be holy before men , Only God can say whom is and whom is not HIS [Numbers 16]
and I am certain many are in for a big surprise when God does His glorious work in the end
I know the Lord Jesus said , IF it were possible even the very elect would be deceived , I know the main thing missing in the deceptive is the LOVE OF GOD IN THEM
I though of John the revelator when He marveled at the Great Whore of the earth Babylon and the angel messenger of God ''corrected ''Him
saying
why do you marvel Rev 17 7And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth,
whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come....
Something that looks wonderful but full of evil doing ..
Matt 24 ;24
...23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders,
so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25"Behold, I have told you in advance.
True and LIVING GOD IS the God of the living for all live to Him , Jesus Christ testimony as a witness to all of us Luke 20
37"
But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. 3
8"Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him." I am thankful for Gods grace and mercy though Jesus Christ bringing new Life in Himself ,back from the dead ... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on August 11, 2015, 02:39:39 AM
I am thankful for Gods grace and mercy though Jesus Christ bringing new Life in Himself ,back from the dead ... :HeartThrob:
Hey rosie! :thumbsup: :dsunny:
:thumbsup: Jab...and I just may be in need of hft's advice shortly......my grand-daughter was baptized apostolic...and her
new beu is calvary apostolic..bigtime..and attending bible college in Indy. So...whole new thing for me...except as a child I won
1st prize for bringing the most children to a children's revival at Pentecostal [won a flashlight..with 4 colours/red/yellow/green/blue!] lol!
oh boy :faint:
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 10, 2015, 10:03:52 PM
I just do not want to seem divisive. A theological debate can easily get tempers going. I do hold some theological tension in my blood it seems, so it rang true with me.
Remember that theology absorbs twenty-seven times its own weight in excess reality.
lol! you guys.......smh
Well, I have not been more than 2 denominations, but I have gone from a lower-middle class, conservative Roman Catholic background, in which, I would pass a Christian Church and feel I should cross the street, so as not to be 'contaminated'; to a Lutheran Deacon; to someone who is on the board with an organization which promotes all who love Jesus to come together and celebrate in various events our joy as the body of Christ, called Jesus Alive, on LI and going to a very, very wide variety of Christian/Catholic Churches with friends, and to sell a Christian singer's CDs, from Traditional Catholic to C3 Church in Brooklyn, and many more.
So, I have learned so much more tolerance for other's beliefs. We are all on a journey. Who is to say where the road will lead us to, or what God has in store for us, on our journey, which might seem like a detour to us as humans, but to Him is the direct route to where we are supposed to be?
I see it as a mosaic, in a sense, each church reflecting parts of God, none with the entire truth, as it is hard for our human minds to comprehend God, fully, and sin and lies get in the way, as well. I try to keep my focus on God, through all of this: God lead me; teach me what I am supposed to learn from each experience; let me focus on you and not on the discord and storms; keep me in the truth, and help me to love YOUR people, with the mind of Christ.
Good stuff in this post hey?
most certainly is! and TY! :friendstu:
I'd say so. :thumbsup:
One of the things I like about what you said is how that what we believe affects us. Even if we believe in the God of Abraham, if we think he forever hates his enemies and tortures them in hell, how much easier is it for us to likewise treat an enemy?
D your post really reasonated with me. last night the parable of the good samaritan come to my mind..how the priest and levite..
due to ritual doctrinal purity..were less then helpful in Jesus ministry of salvation/redemption restoration of all men.
one thing I've noticed..is a lot of people in these churches with such doctrinal errors....even though they be drinking some of
these poisonous doctrines...they never entered their hearts. That there are those who have these things in their hearts..is also
true...and we know the Lord must give them a new spirit and write His royal law of love in their hearts/minds.
we have the example of Saul/Paul..of such ones like these..who kill those whom God has forgiven and loves..and think they
are doing a service unto God.
As far as the "which God do you worship" question, l don't see that from a legal point of view. I do believe that the Calvinist God is a doctrinal presentation of him, the one who predestined most of the world to be tormented in hell, save for a few chosen. That doctrine does not know God for Who, he truly is, and cannot reveal him for who he truly is. I don't mean that Calvinists, cannot have their sins forgiven on technical grounds because of doctrinal issues.
If someone said that I am a racist, then they may know my hair color, my eye color, who is in family, my name, etc, but they don't know my heart, and without that, they do not yet know who I truly am. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't forgive them, but they won't know all of me until they my heart, and my nature. This is what I believe is the journey of any Christian to discover and deepen our understanding of what is in God's heart and who he truly is. None of us are perfect in that. To a degree, l believe that God has intentionally veiled that, so we will adamantly seek it and be rewarded, and part of that includes doctrinal presentations of "another Jesus," for who he truly isn't, so that we will go deeper to understand who he truly is. I believe that is the journey everyone must take, and everyone is taking. Some are further along but nobody is excluded.
..good word,Seth.. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on August 11, 2015, 07:00:08 PM
As far as the "which God do you worship" question, l don't see that from a legal point of view. I do believe that the Calvinist God is a doctrinal presentation of him, the one who predestined most of the world to be tormented in hell, save for a few chosen. That doctrine does not know God for Who, he truly is, and cannot reveal him for who he truly is. I don't mean that Calvinists, cannot have their sins forgiven on technical grounds because of doctrinal issues.
If someone said that I am a racist, then they may know my hair color, my eye color, who is in family, my name, etc, but they don't know my heart, and without that, they do not yet know who I truly am. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't forgive them, but they won't know all of me until they my heart, and my nature. This is what I believe is the journey of any Christian to discover and deepen our understanding of what is in God's heart and who he truly is. None of us are perfect in that. To a degree, l believe that God has intentionally veiled that, so we will adamantly seek it and be rewarded, and part of that includes doctrinal presentations of "another Jesus," for who he truly isn't, so that we will go deeper to understand who he truly is. I believe that is the journey everyone must take, and everyone is taking. Some are further along but nobody is excluded.
I understand the sentiment as far as what our view and understandings might be. No ill will to hft, I understand the main point he was making and agree with its validity. I just personally don't like the phrase "which God?" if it's talking about YHWH and those who believe in and attempt to follow Him to the best of what knowledge and understanding they have. He's certainly not the first to use the term, it seems to be a sort of "go-to" phrase for universalists.
There's one true God, the God of Abraham, Father of Jesus, and if anyone calls on/believes in His Son, they will be saved. I believe the issue is our different/veiled/erroneous understandings of
Him. Again, I understand the point - "what do you believe and how do you act, based on how you see God and what you believe about Him". But if I personally were to say "which god do you serve", I would mean is it YHWH, or is it satan or some pagan god who the true God calls "made by human hands with no power". :2c:
I understand what you mean and I think that's why it's important to clarify. What do you think of Paul's usage of the term "another Jesus" and "another Gospel" when there really is only one Jesus and one Gospel, just as there us one Yaweh? Where does that fit into the conversation?
look! Psalms 87;4 I will record Rahab and Babylon among those who acknowledge me.Philistia and Tyre,too,long with Cush-
and will say 'This one was born in Zion"
a little wisdom of Solomon....give the child unto her..she is the mother.
a greater wisdom from above...Isaaih 54 future glory of Zion..v 2 enlarge the place of your tent..............
but Zion said 'The Lord has forgotten me"....more are the children of the desolate woman..than of she that has the husband.
Basically......Jerusalem above"s..the true Mother of the children...heart had to be manifest...........
look! they all come to you....who bore me these?
God called out a comapany...... a bride/wife of the Lamb company..and Mother of the children company...and her heart had to be
manifest....and He give her back her vineyards....Look! All come to you...and ye will clothe yourself with them as a bride puts
on her ornaments. You see..better the child given unto the harlot[Babylon] then be put to death/cut into by the sword......
Yep, because those who are given to Babylon can remember Jerusalem, but the dead know nothing.
...it all goes back to the woman being decieved and believing the lie...until she births the promised seed...who annhilates the lie
and brings forth salvation/life to all men.
That's crossed my mind and I'm not sure ("another Jesus"). Something to think about and look at context, which I haven't as yet done. It's a good question.
s/w apart from the OP if I may, as I don't want this to seem like "picking" at hft, who made legitimate points I believe; but a few thoughts I have;
I certainly believe we should base what we believe on what the Holy Spirit reveals to us from scripture, and in having the most correct view of God He gives us. Most/all of us probably pray to God for understanding/insight, even revelation. "Everyone" I've ever known in orthodoxy believed they were doing just that. Not just willfully making stuff up apart from scripture or outright rejecting the Bible , but were looking at scripture with the best understanding they had at the time. That included me. I was a believer LONG before I knew any such concept of God reconciling all back to himself ever existed. I didn't get saved when God showed me UR. I had already trusted in His Son as my Savior. But my view of Him needed and still needs ever sharpening.
Also, if we're not careful and put God in our own little box(es) based on OUR VIEW and UNDERSTANDING of Him - whatever that may be that He's allowed at the moment - then we can end up saying "me and my little group that understands minute doctrinal details of x,y,z are the only ones that know the TRUE God". Which means "no Baptists truly believe on Jesus, no fill in the blank know Him, because they believe in hell". I just have a problem with that and don't think it's scripturally tenable. The scriptures don't say either "believe in hell and you'll be saved" or "don't believe in hell and you'll be saved". We know Who it says believe in. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. YHWH and Jesus Christ His Son, crucified, resurrected.
"Another Jesus"? Probably something to be fleshed out, but Paul clearly taught "believe on Jesus, crucified and resurrected, and you'll be saved". So I'm not sure exactly where it fits :).
I definitely believe you are right to make the clarification. I don't believe people can accidentally worship Satan, and I do want to reiterate that I don't think it's a salvation issue. Actually, I do believe I was saved when I believed UR, saved from fear. But, then again, I guess that goes back to the meaning of salvation (sozo - healing). It's a nuanced thing. The UR understanding of Jesus definitely saved/healed alot of aspects of my relationship with Christ, insofar as fear and wrath are concerned. The healing occurred in my mind.
But again, I don't make it a legalistic issue about accidentally worshipping Satan while thinking you are worshipping God. I think the "another Jesus" aspect fits in not in terms of believing in Jesus but KNOWING him for who he really is, that is a lifelong journey, not a single moment of initial belief. When we believe in Jesus and take the stance that we see all things because our church says so, then we remain blind. We take the first step, but no further steps in discovering who this "Jesus" is, beyond believing the proposition that he existed and was raised from the dead.
:cloud9: I think people worship "another Jesus" a lot and don't realize it. I think they worship another Jesus, for instance, when they worship the one on the cross not realizing He's not there anymore.
Same could be said for people who worship the one who's still in the tomb, not realizing He's not there anymore, either, for He has risen, IN US.
Same could be said for people who don't worship a Jesus that still heals today, not realizing He's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Same could be said for those who don't believe He manifests through His body via the gifts of the Spirit, not realizing the gifts of God were for all that are called, even those that are afar off, and He desires a body to do the works of the Holy Ghost thru.
Same could be said for those that don't realize we are joint heirs with Christ, meaning all that He received of His Father, we too have received, ie. the fullness of Him dwells in us bodily.
In all things, there is a difference in knowing ABOUT Him, and knowing Him in as a personal, active, living being inside you that desires to manifest Himself in fullness thru a people He is not ashamed to call brethren. Again, my :2c: Blessings...
That's what I'm getting at :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 11, 2015, 08:17:36 PM
:cloud9: I think people worship "another Jesus" a lot and don't realize it. I think they worship another Jesus, for instance, when they worship the one on the cross not realizing He's not there anymore.
Same could be said for people who worship the one who's still in the tomb, not realizing He's not there anymore, either, for He has risen, IN US.
Same could be said for people who don't worship a Jesus that still heals today, not realizing He's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Same could be said for those who don't believe He manifests through His body via the gifts of the Spirit, not realizing the gifts of God were for all that are called, even those that are afar off, and He desires a body to do the works of the Holy Ghost thru.
Same could be said for those that don't realize we are joint heirs with Christ, meaning all that He received of His Father, we too have received, ie. the fullness of Him dwells in us bodily.
I'm with you up to here. As long as we see that as FIGURATIVELY, i.e., our understanding and the deepness of our experience with Him - rather than there actually being more than one Jesus - i.e., a good one only "we" have, and then some sort of "bad" one "the other people" [who believe in Him] have".
Quote from: Cardinal on August 11, 2015, 08:17:36 PM
In all things, there is a difference in knowing ABOUT Him, and knowing Him in as a personal, active, living being inside you that desires to manifest Himself in fullness thru a people He is not ashamed to call brethren.
I separate this out as almost another issue from the rest of the above, as I see
this piece from this perspective; if we only know ABOUT Him, but haven't as yet been given the faith to believe on Him as Savior, then we just simply truly don't know Him yet. We still must come to that place of the miracle of the new spiritual birth before we know Him. Head knowledge [devils believe and tremble] vs. heart experience - the miracle of the new birth.
An old turn of phrase does well to explain. If I am temperamental, hot and cold, and someone says "Which Seth am I talking to today?" it's referring to different aspects of my personality, rather than there being actually multiple of me.
:cloud9: Exactly.....and I agree with you too, Jab.....it's like the story of the blind men touching different parts of an elephant and trying to define it from just their part, or like a jewel with different facets, and everyone sees only from their perspective. There is only One but all see or experience different parts.
A wise man once said that all religion is one man's experience with God. Think about it, and it's true. They had a singular experience and said that's all there is. Just like the children of Israel in the desert who refused to move as the cloud moved. It's all about limiting Him to our own experience. Blessings....