I don't know how many of you have heard this saying, but it's pretty common in the christendom teaching; that once we "accept" Christ as our saviour, he does not see our sin, but sees Jesus. I would like to debunk this. All opinions welcome.
1. God is NOT "looking down on us". Believe it or not it took a while for me to get this idea out of my head; that God was not literally up beyond the clouds sitting and looking down. How foolish it seems now. God is spirit( John 4-24), and intimately in everything beyond our comprehension. Col 1-20
2. If God does not see our sin, then doesn't that contradict the fact that you better stay the course or there's hell to pay? I find this to be very damaging to ones spiritual growth, not because of a false hell, but because that completely abolishes grace, and I mean Real grace. Grace in which he shows us our sin to teach us, then guides us by the spirit out of them. Funny how they say we teach that anyone can do anything they want and God is o.k. with it, when that's EXACTLY how they look at themselves.
3. It was taught at my pentecostal church that God had to turn his head when Christ was on the cross, because he cannot look at sin. :mshock: ? So, God looks down from his rocking chair and sees only those that are saved, but will not look at the other 98% of the world. How does anyone "accept him" then?
There are so many holes in teachings we've all been exposed to. It's time to start posting and exposing, because somone will be looking for answers just as we were and still are. Again, all opinions welcome.
Grace and peace,
Brandon
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.
That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.
1. I agree with you about God being spirit but I think there are good reasons for thinking God is somewher in a high place. But it might originate from pagan believes. (like the priest standing in the highest place)
2. I think it's very hard for an all knowing some not to see something when you even knew before it happened.
Quote from: Seth on July 21, 2009, 11:04:21 PM
That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.
I assume you never read Chick tracts :laughing7:
God knows nothing. You are constantly filmed by an angle. That film is shown in courtroom and then you are judged.
Being aware of sin doesn't mean you don't turn your head. That said I think God is scared by nothing. Not even hyper sin.
Yeah, it's very self-contradictory as AS said: on one hand they say that God cannot see our sin, and then they say that smoking a ciggy is a sin. What would it matter if God can't see it?
I think they take the statement in Hebrews 10 that God will remember our sin no more, as being that He will lack the knowledge of our sin. I don't view any scriptural interpretation as being anything that can contradict John's statement: God is bigger than our hearts, and he knows everything.
The remembrance of sin is by the Law, and God saying that he will remember sin no more, means that he does not impute our sin by the law, yet he still "SEES" it so that he can get rid of it within us.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 21, 2009, 11:09:24 PM
1. I agree with you about God being spirit but I think there are good reasons for thinking God is somewher in a high place. But it might originate from pagan believes. (like the priest standing in the highest place)
2. I think it's very hard for an all knowing some not to see something when you even knew before it happened.
I do not dispute at all God and his kingdom dwell in a higher Spiritual realm. The difference is the spiritual, not the literal.
Quote from: aspiring son on July 21, 2009, 10:52:46 PM
I don't know how many of you have heard this saying, but it's pretty common in the christendom teaching; that once we "accept" Christ as our saviour, he does not see our sin, but sees Jesus. I would like to debunk this. All opinions welcome.
In this discussion I cannot get past here without someone who actually believes this to reply, because my first question is if God cannot look upon sin, how did he see our sin before we accepted.
QuoteI do not dispute at all God and his kingdom dwell in a higher Spiritual realm. The difference is the spiritual, not the literal.
Good word. When our minds are made spiritual, we have ascended, even if we are still clothed in flesh. That is how God has made us to sit in heavenlies with Christ.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyoVJfADlwo
good song beloved...I wish i had the gifting to make songs that touch the heart like that!When you listen along your heart just sings out with joy!
blessings :icon_king:
As soon as we wake in the morning the war begins.
Stay in the consciousness of Him, every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every decade of every century of every world without end. Amen.
He is the only life that is self-sustaining, and He has invited us to join that life within Him.
Knowing Him — squabbling about the definitions of terms is worthless.
Only The Lord is self-sustaining and blessed are we to be asked to dine at His table.
I thank God that he opened my eyes to certain false definitions of words used to keep me in bondage to fear, pain and slavery of my former ET days. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on July 21, 2009, 11:04:21 PM
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.
That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.
Are you saying that God removed the law? That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner. But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row). That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.
Please clarify Seth.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 21, 2009, 11:04:21 PM
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.
That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.
Are you saying that God removed the law? That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner. But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row). That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.
Please clarify Seth.
Paul
The law is for the lawless, Paul. Do you know what that means?
BTW, where in the world did I say that the law was "abolished?" Do you understand the difference between "the law" and the "righteousness that is in the law?" One thing that has been a disagreement between us has been what the source of sin is. That disagreement will factor in here. Sin is in the flesh.
So, when the Gentiles had no law of Moses, sin was not imputed to them because they were not trying to please God. However, they all still REQUIRED deliverance from the body of death. The old MUST die before the new can be born. So even though the Gentiles did not have a law imputing their sin, they still had sin in their flesh to be delivered from. That is why Jesus died for both Jew and Gentile, the whole world.
The law was not formed to BRING SIN INTO EXISTENCE, otherwise it would need to be said that the Law was formed to create sin by establishing the possibility of transgression, rather than simply exposing sin as a pre-existing condition. That is why I do not think that "without the law there is no sin," only that it is not counted up. If, without the law there was no sin, the Gentiles would not have needed a savior, they would have had no sin, by your definition, to be saved from.
The Law of Moses was formed to point to a condition that already existed: Sin in the flesh.
Seth,
do you love me?
John 21:12-18
Yes I do. :HeartThrob:
Feed my sheep
The Gospel of Christ is the message that leads one to salvation. It shows the essential steps one must take to secure the goal that God wishes all to attain. That objective is not merely for us to be saved from something. God wishes us to be saved to something.
The central truth of it concerns Jesus Christ. It involves the reason for His life, His death, His resurrection, and His present existence. The Bible speaks of Imputation both in the Old and New Testaments, but the doctrine is given full discussion in the writings of Paul. We recognize what the word "Imputation" signifies. It is the noun form of the verb "to impute." Which means "to attribute, to ascribe, or to lay to the charge of." Any major dictionary defines the biblical meaning as "attribution of one person's righteousness or guilt to another." In simple language, it means to place the merits or the demerits of one person to the account of another.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Not only were the sins and the punishment for sins imputed to Christ on our behalf, something else was imputed to us through the efforts and example of Christ Jesus. The fact is, the righteousness that Christ had while here on earth throughout His life can be imputed to you, me, and all in the world through our acceptance of Christ and His substitutionary role on our behalf. Christ came not only to die for us, He also came to live for us. While on this earth He lived a sinless life. He obeyed the Father precisely. He performed all that God ever demanded of any human and in His perfect performance He was totally accepted by God.
Throughout the Bible, God informs all people that His commandments must be obeyed for righteousness' sake — and they must be obeyed precisely (Deuteronomy 32:46; Matthew 5:19). No one can enter into the resurrected life of the spirit unless he shows an active righteousness by keeping all the commandments. Christ himself taught, "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).
Yet we all fail to walk perfectly in the ways of God. No man has ever kept the commandments of God and shown absolute righteousness in daily life, whether he was a person of the Old Testament or one of the New. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Yet, a strict performance of God's commandments is necessary to get salvation.
Note this point. Not only were our sins taken away from us and the punishment for those sins endured by Christ, but the important aspect of Imputation also involved the placement of Christ's perfect righteousness on the head of every Christian.
The fact is, we are all in the same human condition with Paul, the great apostle of our faith. Not one of us comes close to being moderately righteous, no matter how good we appear to be on the surface.
Since righteousness is demanded of God, how do we receive it? Paul tells us plainly how it is obtained. It is through faith (belief). It is by having faith in God. "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Romans 4:3). Yes, Abraham received righteousness by exercising belief. Paul called belief in Christ a "righteousness of faith" (Romans 10:6).
But whose faith really counts in granting us salvation? Is it our faith? Is it our own belief? Paul said it is not our own faith that gives salvation. It is the faith of Christ. Only the faith of Christ has the power to save you, me, and all mankind. And while we are told to express faith on numerous occasions in the New Testament it is not our own faith that is efficacious in God's granting of salvation to us. Let us look at our personal faith for a moment.
Personal faith is important, but it has a problem. Though human faith is a precious possession, and though it produces a measure of righteousness that God will accept, it still cannot produce a perfect righteousness! It cannot be perfect because our own faiths are not perfect. The righteousness that personal faith produces is not the faultless "righteousness of God" that we must possess, the righteousness that God has. We must have spotless purity, perfect holiness, and absolute righteousness. Can our own faith, no matter how strong, produce these virtues? How can it when we are constantly saying to God, as did the apostles, "Increase our faith" (Luke 17:5). We must look elsewhere for the faith that will grant us "the righteousness of God" to have a perfect holiness.
"Knowing that man is not DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ ... not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no person be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS."(Galatians 2:16)
God DECLARES US RIGHTEOUS, even when we are not!
Paul makes it plain. It is possible for people to be reckoned as righteous, but only through the application of the obedience of Christ being imputed to us — not through our own works. This is why Paul said that righteousness comes to man as a gift. It is "the gift of righteousness" (Romans 5:17). All gifts, by the very nature of things, are free. And that is what Paul insists the procurement of righteousness is. "The free gift of many offenses unto justification" (Romans 5:16). Even the faith that we have to be saved is a free gift.
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8–9)
Justification shows that Christians are now declared righteous by God — but not by their own works. Our justification comes as a free gift from God. Let us now substitute the true meaning of Paul by rendering "to justify" by "to declare righteous." Note what Paul said,
"BEING DECLARED RIGHTEOUS freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:24
The Bible states that you and I must keep God's commandments perfectly if we hope to be saved and one day be in the paradise of God. All God's just requirements must be met in the life of a human or he will never stand in the presence of God. In a word, there must be an active and perfect holiness in every human's life. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14). This necessity of possessing holiness is a recurrent one in the Bible. In this strict requirement, humanity has a problem. The Bible shows quite clearly that no human is righteous in God's eyes. No matter how many good deeds one has performed, all of us have come short of practicing righteousness. because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20
The apostle Paul went even further in appraising himself (and the rest of us). He called himself "the chiefest of sinners" ( and gave his judgment about himself in the present tense, not the past).
Part 1of 2
Paul
In the first 33 years of teaching the Gospel of Christ Jesus about His death and resurrection now being able to bring people to salvation, that salvation in Christ was ONLY given to people who were of the House of Israel.
Jews within the Roman and Parthian Empires who lived at the time were certainly of the tribe of Judah who were a part of the House of Israel. It meant that salvation could be given to them, but it could not be given to Gentiles IF THEY REMAINED GENTILES! In the 33 years of time that elapsed from Christ's crucifixion in 30 to 63 C.E., it was necessary for all Gentiles who were saved in Christ to become spiritual Israelites. The New Covenant relationship with God was given only to those who were members of the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31–34). Note what the clear word of God states:
"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:31–34
As clear as God could make it, the New Covenant was to be made only with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is not one mention in this New Covenant relationship about participation of Gentiles who were not Israelites. And what did this lack of mention concerning Gentiles mean to the apostle Paul? He made it clear that salvation in Christ could only be given to the children of Israel and no other nation. Note what Paul said in Ephesians chapter 2:
"Wherefore remember [you Gentiles], that you, being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise [both Old and New Covenants], having no hope, and without God in the world." Ephesians 2:11–12
Paul made it clear in the above statement, which was absolutely true and accurate, that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles, there was not a hope in the world for them to gain a salvation in Christ. They were those "having no hope." Remember, the Old and New Covenants were made only with the House of Israel and if one was not an Israelite then such persons were "strangers from the covenants of promise. ... and without God in the world." This was a terrible plight for Gentiles to be in, but this was their fate. Simply put, Gentiles could not be saved.
However, there came to be hope, and indeed, even a victory for the Gentiles. A legal was was found that could get Gentiles saved along with the Israelites. This was by grafting Gentiles into the stock of Israel so that they no longer would be reckoned as Gentiles. This was the manner in which Gentiles could be called the children of Abraham and the Israel of God, and be accepted for salvation like the other Israelites. And Paul, in the four epistles to the first three ekklesias (the congregations in Romans, Corinthians and Galatians) taught that all Gentiles who accepted Christ as their personal Savior were now reckoned to be "in Christ" (Romans 12:5, 16:7, 9–10; 1 Corinthians 3:1, 15:22; 2 Corinthians 1:21, 3:14, 5:17; Galatians 3:27). Putting Gentiles "in Christ" gave them an advantage they had not realized before. Since Christ was clearly reckoned in a legal sense to be from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob's name was changed to Israel), then Gentiles now attached to Christ were no longer acknowledged as "Gentiles" in a spiritual sense. They had now become "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).
"For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs [along with Israelites] according to the promise." Galatians 3:26–29
Similarly, Paul said in Romans 11:13–36 that the Gentiles being "in Christ" (and Christ was an Israelite in whom there was no guile and a legitimate son of Abraham) made them also to be children of Abraham and Israel as was Christ or any natural born Israelite. And since it was clearly understood by Paul that "all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26), this of necessity included the Gentiles who accepted Christ and were grafted into Israel. Thus, these Gentile converts were no longer reckoned as Gentiles. They were now "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16).
This was how the Gentiles could become partakers of all promises and covenants that pertained to the Israelites. This grafting into the stock of Israel made them able to be heirs of the New Covenant relationship that God was making only with Israel.
A Major Problem Developed with this Concept
While this spiritual teaching that Gentiles were now "in Christ" denominated them as being Israel along with the other Israelites, a question quickly arose concerning the required conduct of these new Israelites. Should they be circumcised as were ordinary Israelites? Should they keep the days, times, seasons, and years that all Jews observed and rejoiced in? Should these new "Israelites" be required to eat the clean foods found in Leviticus chapter 11?
Some Christian authorities, especially those in Jerusalem, felt that if the Gentiles were now going to be acknowledged as "Israelites," then it was only common sense they should adopt the same customs as the Jews. This included circumcision, Sabbath, and holyday keeping, the clean food laws, etc. This matter had to be worked out and we find much argument about it in the Books of Acts and Galatians (along with Second Corinthians chapters 11 and 12). In other words, should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") keep the Law of God revealed in the Old Testament and sustained by Christ while teaching in the flesh, or could the Gentiles be given some kind of special relationship different from ordinary Jews? This was the dilemma. What laws and customs should the Gentiles (now "Israelites") observe?
Remember the agreement the Jerusalem Church and Paul came to?
(Info taken from ELM)
Paul
Seth,
Do you love me?
QuoteRemember the agreement the Jerusalem Church and Paul came to?
/that it was ok for the Jewish Christians to continue with the law of Moses if they wished to, but it was not necessary. And, that it was not necessary at all for the gentiles, for they are under the law of Christ not the law of Moses.
Thanks for that summary, Pierac. I enjoyed reading it.
I too ,enjoyed reading this Pierac :HeartThrob:
Pierac, :goodpost:
God does more than see the righteousness in us by the spirit, he IS the righteous spirit in us, organic and more alive than any thing on this earth. How intimate the truth is!! :boyheart:
Grace and peace,
Brandon
Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2009, 02:29:07 AM
Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 21, 2009, 11:04:21 PM
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.
That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.
Are you saying that God removed the law? That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner. But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row). That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.
Please clarify Seth.
Paul
The law is for the lawless, Paul. Do you know what that means?
But you need to clarify. The lawless still exist, correct? So Jesus didn't get rid of the Law because we still need the law to convict sinners of their sins. Also, Jesus didn't get rid of THE law, only the law contained in ordinances (the letter). For Paul says that by Faith we establish the Law - wouldn't make since if the law was abolished. So the Law being abolished can only pertain to the letter.
Paul
Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2009, 02:36:10 AM
BTW, where in the world did I say that the law was "abolished?" ....
You stated in an earlier post in this thread:
"God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the
law, which, through Christ's death
was removed."
Quote
Do you understand the difference between "the law" and the "righteousness that is in the law?" One thing that has been a disagreement between us has been what the source of sin is. That disagreement will factor in here. Sin is in the flesh.
So, when the Gentiles had no law of Moses, sin was not imputed to them because they were not trying to please God. However, they all still REQUIRED deliverance from the body of death. The old MUST die before the new can be born. So even though the Gentiles did not have a law imputing their sin, they still had sin in their flesh to be delivered from. That is why Jesus died for both Jew and Gentile, the whole world.
The law was not formed to BRING SIN INTO EXISTENCE, otherwise it would need to be said that the Law was formed to create sin by establishing the possibility of transgression, rather than simply exposing sin as a pre-existing condition. That is why I do not think that "without the law there is no sin," only that it is not counted up. If, without the law there was no sin, the Gentiles would not have needed a savior, they would have had no sin, by your definition, to be saved from.
The Law of Moses was formed to point to a condition that already existed: Sin in the flesh.
I don't think that I have ever found another person that understand the Law of God better than me. Not to sound boastful or prideful but you asked me if I understand the difference between "the law" and the "righteousness that is in the law". And my answer is YES, I do. I'm also not meaning to imply that you don't understand the law as well or more than me by that statement. I'm just saying I have yet to find someone that understands it as well (outside our documented brothers of the scriptures of course).
I believe the Law was ordained unto Life. The Letter is separate though. I have used the analogy of the speed limit to explain this. If you haven't seen that explanation from other threads let me know and I will explain it as it seems to help a lot of people understand it. I can explain why eye for eye is actually ordained unto Life.
Paul
Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 05:28:03 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2009, 02:29:07 AM
Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 21, 2009, 11:04:21 PM
Good word AS. God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed. The law was meant to expose to us, the sinful condition of the flesh, so that we may be delivered into Christ. What is evident upon being delivered into Christ is that our sin is being conditioned OUT of our minds and we are being saved FROM sin.
That God does not impute sin by the law, does not mean he is UNAWARE of sin, because if he was, he would have no reason to chastise us as a way to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in us by his grace.
Are you saying that God removed the law? That would mean Sin is abolished and everyone is no longer a sinner. But wait, Jesus said to NOT Think that He came to abolish the law (rut row). That means sin is STILL here and still condemning those that practice evil.
Please clarify Seth.
Paul
The law is for the lawless, Paul. Do you know what that means?
But you need to clarify. The lawless still exist, correct? So Jesus didn't get rid of the Law because we still need the law to convict sinners of their sins. Also, Jesus didn't get rid of THE law, only the law contained in ordinances (the letter). For Paul says that by Faith we establish the Law - wouldn't make since if the law was abolished. So the Law being abolished can only pertain to the letter.
Paul
Indeed!
Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
There's only grace, there's only love, there's only mercy and forgiveness and that's enough.
Now to the real question!
Some people feel the Law can never be changed, even to the crossing of a "t" or the dotting of an "i." Those who believe this will be shocked at what the Bible says. The Law of God can be changed and parts abolished if God so desires. This is Progressive Revelation in action.
To show that the Law of God can be changed, or even abolished, it is necessary to see how historically the Law of God started, developed, and finally became the Old Covenant. We need to see how the Law was changed and altered from time to time from Adam to Noah. It later changed: from Noah to Abraham, again from Abraham to Moses, and from Moses to Samuel, then from Samuel to Ezekiel the prophet, and from Ezekiel to John the Baptist, and finally to Christ before His crucifixion.
The former Law of God changed quite often, with additions and/or deletions, throughout the various periods associated with the men just mentioned.
Let's just review the vast differences between the Patriarchal and Mosaic Legal Systems:
• Under the Abrahamic covenant, God allowed his people to offer sacrifices anywhere they pleased (Genesis 12:7, 35:1; Job 1:5). Moses changed this law by commanding only the family of Aaron to attend to the sacred rites (Exodus 40:1–16) and those sacrifices could only be offered on the altar in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 12:13–14).
• Abraham planted a grove (or sacred tree) in Beersheba (Genesis 21:33), but under Moses the use of groves became prohibited (Exodus 34:14; 2 Chronicles 14:3; Isaiah 17:8).
• Jacob set up a pillar (Genesis 28:18), but this was later forbidden by Moses (Deuteronomy 16:22, margin).
• God said in the time of Noah: "Every moving thing [i.e., all animals] that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things" (Genesis 9:3), but with Moses only the beasts mentioned in Leviticus chapter 11 were allowed or disallowed.
• There were no official feast days commanded in the time of Abraham, but with Moses, ordained festivals became required periods for attendance by all Israelite males (Leviticus 23).
• There was no commanded Tithing at first. Tithing was not a law in the patriarchal period. 2
• None of the patriarchs wore phylacteries ( at least we have no record of such), but with Moses their use was commanded (Numbers 15:37–41).
• The land did not have to rest every 7th year under the patriarchs (Genesis 41:34–35), but with Moses, the land rest was commanded (Leviticus 25:1–7).
• Abraham married his half-sister with God's full approval (Genesis 20:12), but this became illegal in the time of Moses (Leviticus 20:17).
• Abraham was confederate with his Canaanite neighbors (Genesis 14:13), but no leagues with the Canaanites were allowed in the dispensation of Moses. Indeed, the Canaanites were to be exterminated (Deuteronomy 20:17–18).
• There was also no commanded Sabbath law in the patriarchal period. However, in the time of Moses the Sabbath was first introduced as a law for Israelites to obey (Exodus 20:8; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12) with stringent requirements that changed the very character of the 7th day of the week. Moses had now emerged on the scene and a profound change in religious essentials had come into existence for Israel.
The differences between the religious system of the patriarchs and that of Moses were dramatic. If a religious Israelite after the time of Moses could have been transported back to Abraham's time and witnessed Abraham (not knowing who he was) performing his religious duties, he would have called him an unconverted heathen. And though it is made clear in the Scriptures that God knew Abraham "obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" (Genesis 26:5), those laws (the Law of God in Abraham's time) were very different from those later laws commanded to Moses and to the Israelites at Mount Sinai.
Indeed, for Abraham's first 99 years of life he was not circumcised,
And later
• he built altars anywhere he pleased,
• he raised up groves,
• he offered no lamb at Passover,
• he kept no weekly Sabbath,
• he attended no holy feasts,
• he wore no phylacteries,
• he married his half-sister,
• kept no land sabbath [that is, no Sabbatical Years], and of all things...
• he was allied with the Canaanites.
What God did in the time of Moses was to rescind the religious requirements of the Patriarchal period in favor of stricter laws ordained in the time of Moses. The two religious systems were so completely different that if one were to mix the teachings together, utter contradiction and confusion would result. There is no compatibility at all between the two systems.
To be continued!
Paul
There's only grace, there's only love, there's only mercy and forgiveness and that's enough.
shhh.....
listen...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V5lp2Lg53k
Quote from: PaulIf you haven't seen that explanation from other threads let me know and I will explain it as it seems to help a lot of people understand it. I can explain why eye for eye is actually ordained unto Life.
yes I'd like to hear your explanation. thanks.
In the time of Samuel, in order to give new laws that God designed to govern the kingdom of Saul and then David, Samuel opened the Book of the Law and added sections to it that pertained to the Kingdom of Israel then being developed.
"Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in the book, and laid it up before the Lord." 1 Samuel 10:25
Samuel actually wrote the new laws about the Kingdom (now found in Deuteronomy 17:14–20) and placed them in the Book of the Law of God which was in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 31:9, 17:18).
Indeed, Samuel had an example of another righteous person doing the same thing. Joshua also added new teachings to the Law. "Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God" (Joshua 24:26). As a matter of fact, when Ezra the priest in the 5th century before Christ finally canonized the Old Testament, he not only added all the later books to the Old Testament canon [which then represented the Law of God], but Ezra went through the first five books of Moses and made a number of additions to the Law where he thought it necessary. This editing by Ezra, and the addition of biblical books, was under the approbation and command of Almighty God and Christ Jesus agreed with it. ( 2Ti 3:16)
"For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17
The Christ while teaching in the flesh was placing the capstone on the Mosaic system of living by the Law. The Christ was prophesied to be a "second Moses" with greater power than Moses to be a legislator . Christ changed the Law of Moses drastically and had complete authority to do so. He had the backing of God the Father to do so. Look at the legislation giving Christ such authority. The Christ had the power to change any law He pleased.
"The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken; According to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deuteronomy 18:15–19
"The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he Jesus) [the Messiah] will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isaiah 42:21
Now read Matthew with the idea that God's Law is now Magnified!
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Mat 5:22 In the time of Samuel, in order to give new laws that God designed to govern the kingdom of Saul and then David, Samuel opened the Book of the Law and added sections to it that pertained to the Kingdom of Israel then being developed.
"Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in the book, and laid it up before the Lord." 1 Samuel 10:25
Samuel actually wrote the new laws about the Kingdom (now found in Deuteronomy 17:14–20) and placed them in the Book of the Law of God which was in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 31:9, 17:18).
Indeed, Samuel had an example of another righteous person doing the same thing. Joshua also added new teachings to the Law. "Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God" (Joshua 24:26). As a matter of fact, when Ezra the priest in the 5th century before Christ finally canonized the Old Testament, he not only added all the later books to the Old Testament canon [which then represented the Law of God], but Ezra went through the first five books of Moses and made a number of additions to the Law where he thought it necessary. This editing by Ezra, and the addition of biblical books, was under the approbation and command of Almighty God and Christ Jesus agreed with it. ( 2Ti 3:16)
"For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17
The Christ while teaching in the flesh was placing the capstone on the Mosaic system of living by the Law. The Christ was prophesied to be a "second Moses" with greater power than Moses to be a legislator . Christ changed the Law of Moses drastically and had complete authority to do so. He had the backing of God the Father to do so. Look at the legislation giving Christ such authority. The Christ had the power to change any law He pleased.
"The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken; According to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deuteronomy 18:15–19
"The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) [the Messiah] will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isaiah 42:21
Now read Matthew with the idea that God's Law is now Magnified!
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 "Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent. 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into geenna. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into geenna. 31 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Indeed, God's Messiah came to magnify the Law! And so He did! :wink1:
Peace,
Paul
QuoteThe Law of God can be changed and parts abolished if God so desires. This is Progressive Revelation in action.
Seems like the progressive revelation happens as God moves closer to man....?
He looks different up close than he does when he's far away.
Well, not to me.
It is I that is formed into His image.
Not vice-versa.
Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 05:28:03 AM
The lawless still exist, correct? So Jesus didn't get rid of the Law because we still need the law to convict sinners of their sins. Also, Jesus didn't get rid of THE law, only the law contained in ordinances (the letter).
That clarifies. We totally agree. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: trettep on July 22, 2009, 05:35:34 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 22, 2009, 02:36:10 AM
BTW, where in the world did I say that the law was "abolished?" ....
You stated in an earlier post in this thread:
"God does not impute sin to us, meaning that he does not count us guilty by way of the law, which, through Christ's death was removed."
Right, referring to the law of ordinances which is contrary to us: "the middle partition." I think we are on the right track in agreeing on the difference between the law of Christ and the law contained in ordinances.
This is why I try to add "of Moses" which goes along with how Christ identified the "law contained in ordinances" simply as "Moses."
Well, not to me.
It is I that is formed into His image.
Not vice-versa.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2009, 03:15:10 AM
Feed my sheep
Sure thing. But hopefully you will know that feeding sheep might involve some haylage (fine points)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/baalands/1033591491/
hmmm, that's what Peter said.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2009, 06:31:54 AM
hmmm, that's what Peter said.
I didn't even know "haylage" was in the Bible.
What did Moses say?
(Click on cartoon link below)
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6452.0;attach=539
Paul
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2009, 06:21:50 AM
Well, not to me.
It is I that is formed into His image.
Not vice-versa.
ah...then as man moves closer to God..might be a better way of putting it..
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2009, 05:44:09 AM
There's only grace, there's only love, there's only mercy and forgiveness and that's enough.
I like that song too.
our sins are gone, without a trace, there's nothing left now, there's only grace.
The idea that God can't look down on sin is garbage. It makes no sense philosophically, and would totally make God incapable of dealing with sin, and in fact, he would not even be able to know that mankind has any sin. I mean, come on! If God "looked away" from sin, or was incapable of "looking upon" it, how would he even be able to "see" the human race, or at least, the human race's condition?
From what I've read about the verse that supposedly supports it, I think the best idea behind it is this: God cannot looked upon sin and not do something about it (eventually).
Quote from: Pierac on July 22, 2009, 06:45:34 AM
What did Moses say?
(Click on cartoon link below)
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6452.0;attach=539
Paul
LOL that's hilarious!