When did we fall from the correct relationship with God?

[orlando02]

Following on from an issue I raised in the thread about what you expect God to do for us after we die:

I am persuaded that there is good evidence for evolution; however I can see how it potentially causes a problem, not only eg. for the idea that God deliberately created us etc (one can argue that he did, but he just did it through evolutionary processes over millions of years), but more importantly for the idea that there was ever a time when mankind was in some perfect state of friendship with God (or when death did not exist, for that matter) - I mean if we evolved from simpler creatures, via other hominids etc, then when did we "fall"? Should it perhaps somehow be equated with us becoming fully (self) conscious? Is that maybe what eating the apple symbolises?

One reaction to this is obviously to reject evolution and believe in Genesis literally, but for people who don't take that view, what do you think was the decisive thing that caused a problem that Jesus had to save us from?

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/creation_sciencefaith_and_part_genesis_merged_8616.msg103515.html#msg103515
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/creation_proven_science_or_who_has_scientific_evidence_8628.msg104053.html#msg104053

[orlando02]

Thanks, I'll check those out tomorrow

[WhiteWings]

Hurry, you never know when a thread gets extinct  :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

I for one disbelieve in the theory of evolution. Evolution comes from the rolling of dice. Snake eyes!

[Nathan]

One reaction to this is obviously to reject evolution and believe in Genesis literally, but for people who don't take that view, what do you think was the decisive thing that caused a problem that Jesus had to save us from?

I'm not sure how one would tie in what Jesus saved us from would have anything to do with evolution really, but for me, what Jesus saved me from is  . . .from me.  The one decisive thing that I see that created the problem was two fold.  One, when Adam ate to fruit from the tree of knowledge (natural reasoning) and two, when he recieved that fruit from Eve.  He was supposed to be the one feeding her as he represents spirit and she represent soul.  But when "she" fed "him".  Note that when she ate it first, nothing happened.  It wasn't until she fed him that everything when haywire.  And as a result, the ground that Adam would depend on for prosparity of any kind was cursed.  the realm of knowledge became cursed. 

the first Adam iniated death through knowledge of what's right and wrong.  The second Adam reversed that curse by manifesting love, which doesn't require reason to operate.

[WhiteWings]

I for one disbelieve in the theory of evolution. Evolution comes from the rolling of dice. Snake eyes!

Scientificly speaking the chance for that to happen is almost closer to zero than zero itself :winkgrin:
Basicly there are atwo trypes of evolution.
The first one I usually call Darwinian evolution. The classic stuff. A fish grows legs and crawls out of the sea. And etc
(http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3700000/Darwin-Fish-atheism-3718388-120-120.jpg)
For that theory no evidence is found.

The findings since Darwin point to something very different.
"And there was" evolution. All archeoligical digs for example show for example suddenly are dino's existed. In fact all life that isn't microbe size came into being very suddenly. Surely most scientists don't see the hand of God in that. One could argue what the found is a verse from Genesis "and there was"
:2c:

[Lefein]

We fell when we ran away from God.

In the Garden account, you'll notice that Adam and Eve upon realising their nakedness, and shame, ran from God - distanced themselves from God - distance from God is distance from Life, and Love and Truth.  And so, being distant from him, they became absent, void of him, their spirit of fellowship and innocence being replaced with a spirit of condemnation, confusion, and fear (a bad sort of fear; terror not reverence) of God who made them.  They ran from him, and tried to cover themselves with their own works - fig leaves, try to cover their sin and shame and guilt with their own efforts, rather than turning to God who alone can cover them.  God even sought them out, came to them, and found them, and talked to them.  But they did not repent...there is no mention of repentance, and so...not repenting they were now allowed to be in his presence, refusing to give up their terror, their shame, their guilt, their sin, their pride perhaps - they blamed everyone but themselves (that is pride)...That is when we "fell", when we ran from God...and didn't return.  :2c:

People are still running away from God even today, running to fig-leaf religions that try to cover their imperfections with effort and works.  That is why God has to "draw" people to him, because they will otherwise run away from his great purity like Adam and Eve.  No one seeks God, unless God draw him.  Even earthly children try to hide from their parents when they get in trouble...and run even...we have to trap them, draw them, and set them right again.  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Opening posts question, "When did we fall from the correct relationship with God? "
I dont believe we ever did.
I believe that we are in the correct relationship with God, I reason that our(we) only real problem is that we dont believe or accept that we are, so we "gotta figger."
Once we..man, accept that The Lord God loves us (HIs creation) and showed it through the Blood and offering of His Son, what is His Will, and we, (man) understrand and know that ALL men will be saved, then we, man HEAR the Gospel.