Hello all. I got a call tonight that struck some chords with me, and I'm thinking in sharing it, some of you may want to share some of your heart too. As scripture says, there is nothing that is not common to all of us...we all walk through our own valleys, much of them similar.
My dad, who is 79, called me tonight. He told me he has stopped taking his medications, choosing to either have God heal him and restore him, or "take him home". He has lost much of his mobility and independence, and is in a lot of pain, and told me he doesn't want to keep living like that. I think he wanted me to know his decision, but also gauge my reaction and perhaps garner an opinion or two. A couple of you that have been debating me know I don't have any opinions :wink1:.
Basically we discussed how stopping the "artificial" prolonging of life is different than stepping in front of a bus. About how we often do take medication that prolongs "life", while extending our period of time on this earth into one of pain and suffering that God's design would have taken care of through passing on years before. About how God is certainly able to heal, sometimes chooses to, sometimes not, according to His will and our faith. Talked about how He chose to not heal Paul, instead using his "thorn" as an instrument of mercy in Paul's life as Paul was able to focus on God's sustaining grace rather than his own strength and ability. We agreed that God would either do something amazing for my dad, or that God would do something amazing for my dad. He laughed, and said [being a believer] is a "win-win" situation, and that to be with God is better than "this old world anyway".
I listened, told my dad that even though no one could fully understand unless they were in that position themselves, that I did have some understanding, and would neither tell him to do it or not do it. That it was between him and God, and that I would continue to pray for him. Internally I struggled with how much to lean one way or the other, in the end believing it wasn't fair for me to staunchly advocate one way or the other. It is his life. One consideration is, my dad has probably never really been a happy person. He had a very difficult home life as a kid, grew up rough and poor, married young, and struggled his whole life. When he was "fit and able" he sort of barely survived, having a lot of unanswered spiritual questions he struggled with, some depression, and general unhappiness with life. So we talked about his desire to not live in the shape he's in one way or another, either by letting "nature take its course", or God healing him. We discussed a minister, a mutual acquaintance that recently had been treated for cancer, went into remission, and it returned. He opted to choose "comfort measures" to pass gently, rather than endure more chemo.
Eventually, we ended our conversation by dad saying "thanks for talking to me". I said "bye". I almost called back a time or two to say "love you", but didn't. I've had a quite complicated relationship with my parents, and to minimize detail, that's not something we've verbally expressed very often...maybe once or twice in my life with my dad, a few times with mom. I struggled with guilt, thinking I may not talk with him again in this life, but just couldn't/didn't bring myself to call him back. Questioned my own character for not doing so, "what does this say about me", etc. Bet many of you have been there. I don't know what I'll do in the next day or so, maybe I'll bring myself to call him and say it...I don't know.
Well, I needed to share, and I think after reading some posts about how we often, in some respects tend to relate to God based on our earthly dads, I'm thinking some of you may want to get some things off your chest too. Maybe we can edify each other in the process.
P.S. This isn't a "pity party", I'll be fine, God is good. Again, needed to share, and thought it would be an opportunity for others to tap into some things within themselves.
God's blessing, James.
Hi James
Seems your dad has been blessed with the threescore and ten and then some.
IMO you stance is correct, but if there are unresolved issues, I suggest you address them so that there will be no regrets.
My dad passed 2 years ago at the age of 81 and we had time to make amends and now I have no regrets whatsoever.
Blessings
Hi James:
Your post was really powerful. I think it's wonderful that you feel like telling you dad that you love him. What would be the risk of doing it??
As far as healing/letting die, boy, that's hard. I've thought about it quite a lot in recent months, even though I'm healthy right now. Quite honestly, I don't know if God always will heal us when we want it. There are lessons to be learned from our sufferings.
Stay close to him and be supportive and prayerful. I think that's what he's wanting most from you.
Bri
Seeker, it's great you were able to fix things with your dad. That's touching. Yes, I'm still considering "my next move". Thanks.
Brian, part of the risk/issue is sorting through my own emotions about how I do feel about him...also, he would probably get emotional, and the intensity of that is a little scary, especially in that our relationship has not been that close for much of the time. I like your insight about what he's wanting. Thanks.
James said:
QuoteBrian, part of the risk/issue is sorting through my own emotions about how I do feel about him...also, he would probably get emotional, and the intensity of that is a little scary, especially in that our relationship has not been that close for much of the time. I like your insight about what he's wanting. Thanks.
Could you, perhaps, write it? As in a letter or an email? That would give you the opportunity to think about how you want to say it and what you want to say and it would give him an opportunity to respond without getting overly emotional which might be scary for him too? I was in a long distance relationship for about 3 years and much of our communication was through writing emails etc. Actually, I met him here and TM and we have been married now for about 6 years. I am very comfortable communicating via the written word.
My kids and I exchange an I love you just about every day...at least. They have no doubt how I feel about them. They may think I'm crazy and our family is weird in a lot of ways....and there are problems....but they love me and I love them....and that is right out there in the open.
Cindi......
Thank you Cindi...I think you nailed it. That makes so much sense to me. It had crossed my mind to write dad, but when you said, my spirit was quickened that it was the thing to do...today. I'm also glad to hear about your family and I so agree. My wife, kids and I say we love each other often, and I would be lost without it, so to speak. Thanks so much for caring to respond, God's blessing, James.
:LoveH1:
God bless you, James! I think a letter would be a great idea. That way your dad could privately respond. Maybe it could eventually lead to verbally expressing feelings. What a joy it would be if your dad could experience love, health and happiness while still in his earthly body! But whether it's in or out of his earthly body, we know that the Father does have joy for him. :HeartThrob:
James, my mother made the same decision as your Dad has made only she was in her early 50s and I was in my early 20s. God did not heal her body and she only lived a short time longer. Because she was still so young (and so was I!) it made me really sad and yes, I guess angry that she didn't want to stay and fight harder but I peacefully let her go. She had lived a very hard life and told me she was ready to go. What can one say?
I can't see it as being much easier to let go of a parent at any age but I know the Lord can speak to you.
:girlheart:
:cloud9: I went thru hospice training and did home health for 10 years, watching family dynamics at their best.......and worst. And there's another reason why your dad may have told you. Often in families where there were difficulties for whatever reason communicating feelings (which sadly seems to be the norm not the exception), when one of them senses they are getting close to the end, they may do things to try to illicit the response they really want, which is, "tell me how much I mean to you". It is part of the grieving process of facing our own mortality, to assess our lives within the framework of how important we were to those around us. And it's even more so with people who may feel they were lacking in some vital area of support, real or imagined, to the family unit.
While I understand your natural and reasonable reaction to not want to interfere with what you think is someone's choice, not doing so may send a message to someone who is in their own way caught up in the emotions of what they are going thru, that "it's ok with me if you hasten your demise." Trust me, NO ONE really wants to hear that no matter what they may say or try to portray to you. Pain cries out for one thing; empathy, comfort and an open acknowledgment that they are loved. Many impossible conditions have been reversed, healed, or at least better tolerated, when this impasse has been traversed. People will rally and nearly walk on hot coals to really KNOW and feel they are loved, valued and that the absence of their presence would cause emotional pain to their loved ones.
In this case, you may have to be the one to push thru your own feelings to communicate the healing love that needs to come to this person, regardless of what they may say or do. People in this position often deliberately sabotage the efforts of any trying to reach them in this way, as if they are subconsciously making it harder, testing to see if the person cares enough to press on thru. There's one thing you need to remember. The soul is female and we all have a soul. A person weakened by illness or pain, is going to "live" and react more out of the soulish realm than they ever did before. Personality changes and even childish behavior are the norm at a certain point in the process, for this reason.
So, short quiz. Those of you who have been married awhile can help with this one; when your wife is feeling neglected or unloved in some way and she lets you know it and you try to appease that and she says no, leave her be, in your experience, A) does she really want you to leave her alone, don't try to make up, get her flowers, ect.?, or B) is she saying no, but really wants you to go that last mile and make her feel appreciated and loved? Those of you in happy marriages, correctly answered B. The point of this levity is, that even a man when gravely ill or in pain, lives out of that soulish realm and acts just like a wounded woman.
I am going to pray for both of you, that the Lord open his heart to receive, and yours to give what is needed, that both of you will be in peace down the road to come. Blessings to you......
Is anyone here familiar with Bruno Groening? www.bruno-groening.org
I'd love to hear comments about him or others like him. They might be a blessing to this thread!
Love,
Bri
Brother James (Jabcat): Wow! You have received some great council here already! :thumbsup: And I see no reason to add much of anything other than for you to know that you and your Dad are in my prayers.
My own Dad is 84 and we have almost lost him 4 times in the last 15 years, but he is still hanging in there and still taking care of my 86 year old Mom. They celebrated their 62nd wedding anniversary last month! They are such a blessing to me. Thank God for loving, just and Godly parents!
James, you have a kind heart and a humble and pure spirit. I know that Jesus had a lot to do with that, but I suspect your Dad did too and I'm sure he is proud of you! As I have tried to teach my kids: "Love and Thankfulness" never go out of style. So, I would make sure your Dad knows that you are thankful and love him. In fact, if I were your Dad, I would want to hear (at least) two things from you: "You taught me how to Love" and "You taught me how to Live."
Again, you are in my prayers, my brother. May God's Amazing Grace find you and your Dad at peace with Him and each other in this difficult time!
Love in Him, John Fraysse :HeartThrob:
It hurts me to read such emails. As I am getting older the reality that my parents will not live forever strikes extreme fear and sadness into my life. I can visualize the day when I am told that my father or mother has passed away and the pain that it will bring. I cannot always shake the thought out of my head... It is like a powerful dream... It stays with me. The idea that I may never seen my son grow up, or my father grow old makes me very sad inside. In fact, one day I will be the one dieing and that upsets me a little bit. It makes me very sad...
I cannot begin to understand your pain as a son. Although many children have rocky relatiionships with their parents, they still love them. I myself have an extremely good relationship with my parents and for that I consider myself truly, truly blessed. I cannot understand much of the hatred children have for their parents these days. I have to chalk it up for the fact that God really let me have it easy with my parents and for that I am truly thankful. Now, as a father, my entire goal is to be as good of a father as my father was to me. I want my children to have a great relationship, both as their father and secondly, as a friend.
Anyway, sorry for my rambling... But after reading your post, it really hits home in many ways... We struggle because we want our parents to be pain free, but we also don't want to lose them for the time being. We know that one day we will be reunited, but it still doesn't make it any easier. Of course loves wishes that best for that person and in some cases the best isn't the easiest on us emotionally...
I can only pray that God gives me and you strength to go through difficult times and that he will provide the peace that our souls need. There is little else we can do...
My prayers are with you and your father. Call him and tell him that you love him... I am sure he already knows. Even though I have a really good relationship with my father, I do have a difficult time saying the "L" word... But the truth is, your father would be thrilled to hear it. He wants to hear it just as much as you want to say. You know he would... But that doesn't make it any easier to say, does it? I wish it did... I am done rambling... For now.
I hope you feel God's comfort, Gabe. :grouppray:
Death itself does seem like a dream. Everyone knows it will happen but when it comes close to you, it's always like a dream. But then again, God is in that dream and comfort can be felt. :HeartThrob: Thank you, Lord!
Quote from: Cardinal on February 27, 2008, 03:51:33 PM
A person weakened by illness or pain, is going to "live" and react more out of the soulish realm than they ever did before. Personality changes and even childish behavior are the norm at a certain point in the process, for this reason.
WOW Cardinal, this is SO helpful. My husband and I have been dealing with this for the past 3 years. My FIL is 83 and has been near death many times the past year. It has been a horrible experience, as his personality is far from what we knew all the good years.
And your comments explain so much. Thank you.
James, you're getting some really great support here. My husband and I have already decided similar to your father's decision. Having gone through the past 3 years with my husband's father and seeing the difficulties his situation has brought on family members, we want "to go gently." It's such a personal decision.
One thought about saying "I love you" ... I can't imagine ever regretting having said it. It's the not-saying-it that will bring regret. I like the idea of writing your thoughts out too. Prayers for you.
Yes, great and helpful information, Cardinal! :HeartThrob:
I just love the way that the Lord brings us all through different experiences and then we can help one another.
:cloud9: Amen to body ministry..... :thumbsup:
Brian, Hopeful, Jeanne, Gabe, John, Brian, Bri, Cindi, John...hope I didn't miss anyone, if I did, it was unintentional..thanks so much for the support, suggestions, and input. It's very good. Also what I had hoped would happen has happened, that others would be able to share their own thoughts, feelings, and experiences...I have told dad I loved him, he cried, said "you know I love you too", I said "I know" and then quickly ended the conversation. I guess that's all I could do at the time, but I guess I feel some relief, and it probably helped him. I am still struggling with whether to attempt to throw out some type of "reason for living" type things, suggesting his involvement in a ministry of helping others, etc., but need the Lord's leading on that. I will add, I'm picking up from him that he's not just expecting to die, but he's asking and hoping for a healing, but if he dies in the process, he says he's OK with that...either way. Anyway, thanks again, I appreciate you, God's blessing, James.
Hooray for love!! How beautiful that you opened that door! Over time, that will bring forth a lot of good fruit, for you, for him, and for those around you!
On another thread there's been talk about the suffering, and that it is basically an honor which God bestows on us all in one way or another, just as Jesus suffered for us. I think there is some truth to this.
I also agree with Cardinal's view about the soulish realm that we live (or hide?) in when we suffer. And here too, I think it is for us all to look at Jesus in how he dealt with his suffering. I think his focus was constantly on the Father. And I think that is where our attention needs to be as well. The soul is for feeling, and very sensitive to these things we experience. So if we listen to our soul, it's harder to feel the presence of God.
Writing these things, I am walking on new ground. Can anyone here add more? Cardinal?
Brian
I can relate to your type of situation too, as I am an artist/musician/poet type born to a military oriented 'men don't cry' type dad. He has never, not even one time, told me that he loved me in 51 years.
What I've learned is I gotta do and say what I think is best, and not second guess myself too much. You never know how someone is going to react if you do/say something unexpected. For whatever reason, some people just CAN'T say "I love you", but it doesn't mean they don't.
My advice is to err on the side of non-caution. Pretty much what seeker said. There's really not much to lose and a lot of peace of mind to be gained. If if things don't go the way you hoped, at least you know you tried.
blessings,
- Byron
:cloud9: My mother was not quite as bad that way, but my father was. I resolved to stop this in my generation, and there has not been a day of their lives here at home, that I did not tell my kids I love them. When they were all home, they were "trained" by example. None of us left the house without telling who was still here, where they were going, and I love you as they walked out the door. They still do it, even if they're only here for a visit.
My daughter just brought this up around Christmas time with her new boyfriend. He had told her that his mother has never hugged him in his recollections, and has maybe told him twice that she loves him. My daughter was amazed, and told him in front of me how we are.
I could see this boy's pain over it, even though he tried to be nonchalant about it. When they left to go to his mother's to have a Christmas dinner, I prayed for God to move on this woman. PTL, when they came back, the topic of conversation was how she hugged him before he left. Funny, he didn't say a word about what she gave him for Christmas. :sigh:
Having this daily "tradition", was some comfort to me personally, when my son was almost brutally murdered. He had been home 4 days before, and as always the last thing we said to one another was, I love you. That's one of the first things I thought of when I didn't know if I'd make it to the hospital before he died, which was what the hospital staff had said was going to most likely happen. I want I love you, to be my last words to everyone in my life, because nothing else matters. Blessings to all.......
Funny--
One time I was taking a plane from Mpls back to Italy, and a fear came over me as we took off: "what if I don't make it home safely?"
The only urge I felt inside was just to be able to tell my folks, "I love you!"
Brian
We're like that here at home, too. And we always hug good night, even the grown boys did that before leaving home which I guess some people think is "strange". :dontknow:
I hardly know my dad (didn't meet him until I was 30) but I always tell him I love him. I guess I never stopped to think about what he might think about that. Love is just so normal to me now! :HeartThrob:
Open displays of affection are so common in my family that it came as a shock that other families were not like us. It took awhile, but my husband's family is now even using the ASL finger sign for "I Love You" when they leave each other. My own family started that a long time ago. It's so common that I find myself using it on strangers when I wave goodbye and then feeling a bit embarrassed about it. LOL :laughing7:
Quote from: gr8wuf on February 29, 2008, 06:03:57 PM
It's so common that I find myself using it on strangers when I wave goodbye and then feeling a bit embarrassed about it. LOL :laughing7:
:ghaha:
Quote from: gr8wuf on February 29, 2008, 06:03:57 PM
but my husband's family is now even using the ASL finger sign for "I Love You" when they leave each other. My own family started that a long time ago. It's so common that I find myself using it on strangers when I wave goodbye and then feeling a bit embarrassed about it. LOL :laughing7:
Yeah, my wife does sign language, so we all do that i love you' sign. Kids think in means 'rock on' and some Christians think we're doing a goat-head satanic symbol :mshock:
Of course, here in Texas it also means "hook 'em horns" (Texas longhorn's football team)
blessings,
- Byron
James,
I can relate firsthand when you're dealing with your parent(s) at the end of their time. When my father died in 1997 (he was diagnosed with terminal liver cancer and given 2 weeks to live), that was my first HARD look at how life can be. I can tell you that when he died
(I was by his side), I felt more of a feeling of relief than sadness. What I mean by that is, watching him suffer as his health declined was more than I could bear. The relief I felt when he passed was that his suffering was done.
When my mother died in 03. I watched her health deteriorate to the point of no return. I felt the Lord was preparing me (as He did with my dad) that she "would be going home soon". The night before she died, I prayed to the Lord that "the help my mother needs is in your hands. Whatever your will is, is what I accept." She felt like she was about to die and I didn't want to prolong her suffering any longer. I wished I could tell you what to do about your dad. However, I would only pray that God reveal more of who He is in Christ so that He will walk you in the living reality of the 23rd Psalm.
God be with you
Ches
Quote from: Ches on March 01, 2008, 09:26:35 PM
James,
I can relate firsthand when you're dealing with your parent(s) at the end of their time. When my father died in 1997 (he was diagnosed with terminal liver cancer and given 2 weeks to live), that was my first HARD look at how life can be. I can tell you that when he died
(I was by his side), I felt more of a feeling of relief than sadness. What I mean by that is, watching him suffer as his health declined was more than I could bear. The relief I felt when he passed was that his suffering was done.
When my mother died in 03. I watched her health deteriorate to the point of no return. I felt the Lord was preparing me (as He did with my dad) that she "would be going home soon". The night before she died, I prayed to the Lord that "the help my mother needs is in your hands. Whatever your will is, is what I accept." She felt like she was about to die and I didn't want to prolong her suffering any longer. I wished I could tell you what to do about your dad. However, I would only pray that God reveal more of who He is in Christ so that He will walk you in the living reality of the 23rd Psalm.
God be with you
Ches
:handshake: Thanks, I appreciate it.