Tentmaker Forum

We talked about this scripture on this forum and why he would speak rudely to his mother, but yet then listens. We had some interesting perspectives, but here is one I just received.


4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.





Mark 14:41
And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is c;ome behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Mark 14
36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.


So what Jesus said to his mother, is it prophetic?

We think he's talking about wine, but Jesus had other things in mind, i.e the cup of suffering that he were to partake of during the HOUR of Darkness.
So he says


b]mine hour is not yet come[/b].

I don't know the answer TT but I agree with

QuoteWe think he's talking about wine, but Jesus had other things in mind

I think the micracle of turning water into wine is insignificant compared to the meaning of "but thou hast kept the good wine until now."

Ah the good wine, where did it come from.

It was the wine from the washing pots of the Jews that they used to clean their hands in before eating dinner.

So it was unclean water Jesus turned to wine.

 :cloud9: Unclean waters turned to wine.....I heard that..... :thumbsup:

Here's something else I received on this matter.

Ok so Jesus calls his mother "woman", sounds a bit blunt maybe.

Ok, remember when Jesus said to Peter.

"Get behind me Satan, you do not favour the things of God"

That's even more blunt, but yet Peter did not say a word in defence. Jesus was speaking to the devil in this instance.


So was Jesus speaking to Mary, or was he speaking to "the woman"?

Jesus said, it not yet mine hour.

In the garden he said "it is your hour the hour of darkness", to the princes of evil.

So who is the woman, that was tempting Jesus to do entertainment for her?

The spirit of Jezebel or mystery babylon the woman who is drunken with the blood of the saints and all that was shed upon the Earth.

The woman tempts Jesus to perform for her and Jesus resisted that temptation. The hour of the woman shedding righteous blood, or the term "the hour of darkness" was not yet upon Jesus.

Now straight afterwards Mary his mother takes over, and unlike the woman, says thy will be done oh God

In other words "Whatsover He tells you to do, do it"

Now this time Jesus obeys, or to be more exact answers her prayer by doing the miracle of turning water into wine.

 
Ok Think tank , you got me thinking  :bigGrin:

  born of woman , we know  though scriptures a woman is saved though chilbearing 
when Jesus spoke to Mary /means Strong's G3137 - Maria. Mary or Miriam = "their rebellion"
she would suffer sorrow  when he son was going to die in his ''hour ''
  I do think our hour of trial is in death of the mortal body , the last hour etc ..
  here is what she suffers during her  pain /loss of her son   this Prophecy by Simon caused grif and suffering in her soul  , her mind / heart
Luke 2 NLT

33 Jesus' parents were amazed at what was being said about him.

34 Then Simeon blessed them, and he said to Mary, the baby's mother, "This child is destined to cause many in Israel to fall, but he will be a joy to many others.


He has been sent as a sign from God, but many will oppose him.

35 As a result, the deepest thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.

And a sword will pierce your very soul."


Seeing mary as mother  obeying  Gods will

Jhn 19:25 ¶ Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. 

When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!  
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home]. :thumbsup:

why was Jesus telling his disciple to SEE . take care of his mother now telling  his mother to SEE her son  this disciple

   this fulling Gods Word  here


While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 

Mat 12:47   Then one said unto him, Behold/SEE , thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 

Mat 12:48   But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 

Mat 12:49   And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 

Mat 12:50   For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. 

Jesus is speaking of the Whole Family of God 
   what do you think ?  :HeartThrob:

I'm glad I got you thinking  :happygrin:

Yes I agree  :thumbsup:

Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

I see this scripture goes along with what you said. That we are all family to God.

 :cloud9: @ Rose.....It was a prophecy.....a sword DID pierce her very soul. In respect to Mary, symbolically, He represented the virgin soul she birthed (in a spiritual sense). Blessings....

  See.... Jo.2:4 is there a disrespect
« on: November 18, 2010, 09:16:39 PM »

which is Jo,?

John, Joel, Job??

Considering not respecting your parents is considered sin, I have a hard time believing Jesus was "disrespecting" Mary.  Just because something reads rude in the English 2000 years after the fact doesn't make it so.

I thought of you when I posted this topic.

What do you think of the deeper message?

Where's Nathan when I need him  :laughing7:

  Hi TT , Been thinking  when Jesus first told His mother /woman   what is that to do with me or in other words 


How does this glorify God / Father , because Jesus was always about His Fathers buisness  , the saving  buisness , beings Light in to  the darkness ..



  Than Jesus done this "miracle"   turning the water into wine 


a miracle is a sign or token of that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known
  DOING GOOD ...


  and Thanks for bringing this out   :thumbsup:

  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: shawn on June 04, 2011, 09:10:55 PM
Considering not respecting your parents is considered sin, I have a hard time believing Jesus was "disrespecting" Mary.  Just because something reads rude in the English 2000 years after the fact doesn't make it so.

Maybe even a bad translation. IIRC Jesus also called his mother a dog. With the correct translation it was closer to a compliment than an insult.

I checked some commentaries and it seems problematic for many
Woman ([/size][/size]). Vocative case of [/color], and with no idea of censure as is plain from its use by Jesus in 19:26[/color]. But the use of [/color]instead of [/color](Mother) does show her she can no longer exercise maternal authority and not at all in his Messianic work. That is always a difficult lesson for mothers and fathers to learn, when to let go.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 09:57:12 PM

Quote from: shawn on June 04, 2011, 09:10:55 PM
Considering not respecting your parents is considered sin, I have a hard time believing Jesus was "disrespecting" Mary.  Just because something reads rude in the English 2000 years after the fact doesn't make it so.

Maybe even a bad translation. IIRC Jesus also called his mother a dog. With the correct translation it was closer to a compliment than an insult.

I checked some commentaries and it seems problematic for many
Woman ([/size][/size]). Vocative case of [/color], and with no idea of censure as is plain from its use by Jesus in 19:26[/color]. But the use of [/color]instead of [/color](Mother) does show her she can no longer exercise maternal authority and not at all in his Messianic work. That is always a difficult lesson for mothers and fathers to learn, when to let go.

What have I to do with thee? ([/color]). There are a number of examples of this ethical dative in the LXX (Judg 11:12[/color]; 2Sam 16:10[/color]; 1Kgs 17:18[/color]; 2Kgs 3:13[/color]; 2Chr 35:21[/color]) and in the N.T. (Mark 1:24[/color]; Mark 5:7[/color]; Matt 8:29[/color]; Matt 27:19[/color]; Luke 8:28[/color]). Some divergence of thought is usually indicated. Literally the phrase means, "What is it to me and to thee?" In this instance F.C. Burkitt (Journal of Theol. Studies, July, 1912) interprets it to mean, "What is it to us?" That is certainly possible and suits the next clause also.

Thanks WW ,  What is that to us ?  :thumbsup:  being about His Fathers Buisness  :HeartThrob:Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?   

 7 sn The term Woman is Jesus' normal, polite way of addressing women (Mat 15:28; Luk 13:12; Joh 4:21; Joh 8:10; Joh 19:26; Joh 20:15). But it is unusual for a son to address his mother with this term. The custom in both Hebrew (or Aramaic) and Greek would be for a son to use a qualifying adjective or title. Is there significance in Jesus' use here? It probably indicates that a new relationship existed between Jesus and his mother once he had embarked on his public ministry. He was no longer or primarily only her son, but the "Son of Man." This is also suggested by the use of the same term in Joh 19:26 in the scene at the cross, where the beloved disciple is "given" to Mary as her "new" son.

---

About 40% of the translations I checked render the verse similar to:
^RYLTJohn 2
4 Jesus said to her, 'What -- to me and to you, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'
--> According to the Greek I checked that's teh only correct rendering of the verse. Even more likely considering it's an idiom. (see below)

8 tn Grk  "Woman, what to me and to you?" (an idiom). The phrase τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, γύναι (ti emoi kai soi, gunai) is Semitic in origin. The equivalent Hebrew expression in the Old Testament had two basic meanings: (1) When one person was unjustly bothering another, the injured party could say "What to me and to you?" meaning, "What have I done to you that you should do this to me?" (Jdg 11:12, 2Ch 35:21; 1Ki 17:18). (2) When someone was asked to get involved in a matter he felt was no business of his, he could say to the one asking him, "What to me and to you?" meaning, "That is your business, how am I involved?"  (2Ki 3:13; Hos 14:8). Option (1) implies hostility, while option (2) implies merely disengagement. Mere disengagement is almost certainly to be understood here as better fitting the context (although some of the Greek Fathers took the remark as a rebuke to Mary, such a rebuke is unlikely).

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 09:57:12 PM

Quote from: shawn on June 04, 2011, 09:10:55 PM
Considering not respecting your parents is considered sin, I have a hard time believing Jesus was "disrespecting" Mary.  Just because something reads rude in the English 2000 years after the fact doesn't make it so.

Maybe even a bad translation. IIRC Jesus also called his mother a dog. With the correct translation it was closer to a compliment than an insult.

I checked some commentaries and it seems problematic for many
Woman ([/size][/size]). Vocative case of [/color], and with no idea of censure as is plain from its use by Jesus in 19:26[/color]. But the use of [/color]instead of [/color](Mother) does show her she can no longer exercise maternal authority and not at all in his Messianic work. That is always a difficult lesson for mothers and fathers to learn, when to let go.

What have I to do with thee? ([/color]). There are a number of examples of this ethical dative in the LXX (Judg 11:12[/color]; 2Sam 16:10[/color]; 1Kgs 17:18[/color]; 2Kgs 3:13[/color]; 2Chr 35:21[/color]) and in the N.T. (Mark 1:24[/color]; Mark 5:7[/color]; Matt 8:29[/color]; Matt 27:19[/color]; Luke 8:28[/color]). Some divergence of thought is usually indicated. Literally the phrase means, "What is it to me and to thee?" In this instance F.C. Burkitt (Journal of Theol. Studies, July, 1912) interprets it to mean, "What is it to us?" That is certainly possible and suits the next clause also.

This makes sense.  I actually got an email from an individual struggling with the same notion of Jesus disrespecting his mother.  I have just assumed that it was a poor translation and the cultural/era issue is not allowing us to see the tone of Jesus towards his mother.