What gives us the right to judge?

[jabcat]

Good post ded, and thanks C.  CHB, exactly, let me try to show this.

Lomarah, please really think about this.  I understand what you're saying regarding the social aspect re: "that's not a fair example".  Generally, I think it is a fair example, but OK, take away the wife beating part.  Say I get drunk every night.  Or even say I also just curse my wife out every night while I'm drunk.  Is that OK?  Do I just need someone to love me?

What's crazy?  Doing what God tells us to do?  You don't believe that.  And make sure and take note of full disclosure and context, not isolating statements.  I have personally said repeatedly over the years you've known me to do things with love, and AS LED BY THE SPIRIT and AS GOD EMPOWERS.  I've also said "I don't go around preaching at people about their sin, I know several homosexuals I've never said a word to about it, etc.".   However, I also said that if I ever needed to (if I was directly asked, or if God specifically led) I hoped I'd have the nerve to do His will.


Alright, look at this. I Cor. 6    if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!  I say this to shame you.      Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the

[1] sexually immoral
[2]  nor idolaters
[3]nor adulterers
[4] nor men who have sex with men
[in Romans, it also names women with women]
[5]nor thieves
[6] nor the greedy
[7] nor drunkards
[8]  nor slanderers
[9] nor swindlers
will inherit the kingdom of God

I see 2 things specifically that are in the same list.  So which one of those should we overlook as believers, as salt and light? 

[jabcat]

Again, I personally am probably a wimp about it.  I DON"T deal with such issues as I should as a brother.  Believe it or not, I tend to gloss things over.  That may shock you.  I also know we can't go crusading around slamming people about sin.  Again, as I've said repeatedly.  I have sin, and I wouldn't want someone slamming me as in condemning me over it, or just constantly nit-picking me about my faults.  That's not what this is about, IMO.  It's about clear things the scripture says, in black and white, in fact, that are warnings and admonitions.  So if someone had some really good ideas on helping me with some things, or was willing to say "can I pray with you about this?  God can help", then wouldn't that be a true functioning of the church?   I actually, along with more love, need to also have more Godly concern for my brothers and sisters, and reach out more than I do.

Just look at what Jesus said in Matthew;   "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."

[lomarah]

I don't mean we should overlook it. Just that we need to be led by the Spirit when it comes to these things. People need our love, this I know. Like the vid I posted on the other thread, love is what changes people. Going to someone and saying, "You're wrong." has never worked for me and generally has the opposite effect lol! There has to be a balance. Call a spade a spade, but don't condemn that person. Love them. Get what I mean?

True love won't let a person walk in sin... BUT true love won't "condemn" a person for their sin. It takes the Spirit to be able to know what to do and say, and when to do and say it.  :2c:

What I am saying is crazy is the comparison of the example of someone beating their wife and someone having homosexual behaviour. In the circumstance of someone beating someone, something needs to be done NOW... don't you think??

[lomarah]

Again, I personally am probably a wimp about it.  I DON"T deal with such issues as I should as a brother.  Believe it or not, I tend to gloss things over.  That may shock you.  I also know we can't go crusading around slamming people about sin.  Again, as I've said repeatedly.  I have sin, and I wouldn't want someone slamming me as in condemning me over it, or just constantly nit-picking me about my faults.  That's not what this is about, IMO.  It's about clear things the scripture says, in black and white, in fact, that are warnings and admonitions.  So if someone had some really good ideas on helping me with some things, or was willing to say "can I pray with you about this?  God can help", then wouldn't that be a true functioning of the church?   I actually, along with more love, need to also have more Godly concern for my brothers and sisters, and reach out more than I do.

Just look at what Jesus said in Matthew;   "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."

I think we're saying the same things actually. Apart from beating your wife and homosexual behaviour being a good comparison lol. :)

[Molly]

Christian: You Are Salt and Light
Michael Youssef , Leading the Way

Jesus said that we are "the salt of the earth" and "the light of the world". Being salt and light is not optional. Jesus did not say you can be...or you have the potential to be...He said you are. Everyone who has trusted Christ for salvation and is born again is the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

Salt

The value of salt, especially in the ancient world can not be under estimated. Roman soldiers received their wages in salt. The Greeks considered salt to be divine. The Mosaic Law required that all offerings presented by the Israelites contain salt. (Lev. 2:13) When Jesus told his disciples that they were "the salt of the earth", as recorded in Matthew 5:13, they understood the metaphor. While the universal importance of salt is not as readily apparent in our modern world, the mandate that Jesus gave to his first disciples is still relevant and applicable to His followers today.

What are the characteristics of salt that caused the Lord to use it in this context? Theologians have different theories about the meaning of "salt" in Matthew 5:13. Some think that its whiteness represents the purity of the justified believer. Others say that salt's flavoring properties imply that Christians are to add divine flavor to the world. Still others believe that Christians are to sting the world with rebuke and judgment the way salt stings an open wound. Another group asserts that, as salt, Christians are to create a thirst for Christ. Salt, however, has another vital purpose which is probably what the Lord had in mind-it stops decay. When Jesus said, "You are the salt of the earth", He meant that all of His disciples were to serve as preservatives, stopping the moral decay in our sin infected world.

Those first disciples would have been intimately familiar with this function of salt. Without refrigeration, the fish that they caught would quickly spoil and rot unless they were packed in salt. Once salted, the fish could be safely stored and then used when needed. The spiritual health and strength of the Christian is to counteract the corruption that is in the world. Christians, as salt, are to inhibit sin's power to destroy lives. This in turn creates opportunity for the gospel to be proclaimed and received.

We have been given a wonderful privilege to be the salt of the earth, but Jesus gave us a warning. The second half of Matthew 5:13 states: "But if salt loses its taste, how would its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trodden underfoot by men". Jesus did not say that we can lose our salvation; He said that we can lose our saltiness. When salt is contaminated it becomes corrosive and poisonous. Contaminated salt cannot even be used for fertilizer on the field, so it has to be thrown on the road. If we have allowed disobedience, carelessness and indifference to rule our lives, we have become contaminated salt and have lost our saltiness. We need to confess our sin and let the Lord restore us to the purpose for which we were called.

Light

In Matthew 5:14, Jesus tells His disciples, "You are the light of the world". As "salt", the Christian is to counteract the power of sin. As "light" we are to illuminate or make visible. Our lives are to be an on-going witness to the reality of Christ's presence in our lives. When we worship God with pure hearts, when we love others as ourselves, and when we do good without growing weary, we are lights shining. It is important, however to know that it is not our light, but the reflection of the Light of the world, Jesus Christ Himself, that people will see in us.

http://www.christianity.com/bible/christian-you-are-salt-and-light-11596480.html

[jabcat]

I don't mean we should overlook it. Just that we need to be led by the Spirit when it comes to these things. People need our love, this I know. Like the vid I posted on the other thread, love is what changes people. Going to someone and saying, "You're wrong." has never worked for me and generally has the opposite effect lol! There has to be a balance. Call a spade a spade, but don't condemn that person. Love them. Get what I mean?

Yes, thank you for that.  The same thing I've been saying, but don't do very well.

True love won't let a person walk in sin... BUT true love won't "condemn" a person for their sin. It takes the Spirit to be able to know what to do and say, and when to do and say it.  :2c:

What I am saying is crazy is the comparison of the example of someone beating their wife and someone having homosexual behaviour. In the circumstance of someone beating someone, something needs to be done NOW... don't you think??

What I think is, society and the church is falling apart right as we both type in front of our eyes, and it's truly all an emergency.  All sin hurts people, and society and the church at large - now!   Also, in the future, as ded said, all that will have to be disposed of/rooted out, and best done now - AS GOD LEADS AND EMPOWERS.  That's why Apostle Paul said to deal with it. 

But the constant lie we're told over and over that if we stand for God's truths - even IN LOVE [God help me, because I don't do it well and need more love] - we're a "hater", "hypocrite", "intolerant", is being believed, and most of us [ME INCLUDED!] are rolling over and playing dead, believing the lie.  Although there are exceptions, as a whole, I believe we're becoming impotent, sterile.  God's convicted me lately of "giving up" - of not being salt and light.  (And that includes love).

"All we need is love" (sang by the Beatles, before they fought and broke up) has become our delusion, and we're watching the world go to "hell" right before our eyes.   :2c:

[lomarah]

Herein lies my own issue and probably Harmony's issue as well: I have seen many, many people who think they are being the salt and light of the earth while in reality they are tearing their brothers and sisters to shreds. (I HAVE BEEN A PART OF THIS TOO!! Still am from time to time.) "Judgment" without love is not true judgment, amen??

True judgment draws out the sin and darkness, in LOVE for that person... it does not bash the "sinner" over the head with it amen?? This is where there needs to be balance and walking in the light of the Spirit of Love.  :2c: :2c: :2c:

[jabcat]

BTW, Harmony knows I'm not just "bashing" her, either.  We've talked.  Thank you Harmony :)

But that's the thing.  Yes, sometimes we're/folks are unkind and need to re-think and repent of some things sometimes.  But in these recent discussions, I haven't seen anyone teaching we should bash people.   So, yes, I definitely agree with what you said.  Balance, taking in the whole counsel, not erring one way or the other.  Not condemning people, always sharing in love, but still, sharing the truth of the scriptures as given by the Holy Spirit.   God help us do that, because we're all clay, weak, and fallible.  Staying in prayer for people, loving them.  But God's ways and His statutes are not PC.  He said we should expect to be hated by the world.  Are any of us hated for the stand we take (besides me right now?  :laugh:)    :HeartThrob:

So I believe what you just said is what we need to say,  :thumbsup:   not on the whole to give into repeating the same things the world is telling us, in their attempt to snuff out the light and trod under feet the salt. 

[lomarah]

No, and I never meant that you were bashing anyone jab, I'm just trying to better explain what I'm saying (and what I think Harmony might be saying). I am thinking of people like Westboro Baptist church, etc (as an extreme example). But on a smaller scale, even us as we give our disapproving looks or disapproving posts (even when we have to "read between the lines"). Sin is sin is sin, but it is sin because it HURTS PEOPLE... it HURTS PEOPLE... it's not because it's "wrong" because it's "wrong"... it's wrong because it HURTS PEOPLE!! Love the "sinner", hate the "sin", but hate the sin BECAUSE it is hurting the sinner!! Amen??

[ded2daworld]

Westboro Baptist Church is a church of HATE (oops, I judged them)
They hate the sin, the sinner, everybody that doesn't believe and think like them,
and they are gleeful that everyone but them is going to suffer eternal concious torment at the hands of the sick,
psychotic God they worship.

Sadly, they are misguided fools following an even bigger misguided fool they call a pastor.
They really give Baptists a bad name and make christians look exactly like what we are perceived by atheists to be:
Hateful, judgmental, and happy those that don't agree with them are going to be tortured.

Don't get me started... oh and here's my IMO and  :2c: though I actually would be curious if anyone is offended by what I said and NOT offended by what Westboro Baptist says.

[Harmony]

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

I don't have a lot of time this morning to go into any real depth of the purpose of starting this thread.  But the thread has been a very interesting read! 

By the way Lammorah, I loved that video you posted.  I wish everyone would watch it before continuing in this discussion.  It really lays it all out there, from the heart of a former homosexual, who was, and continues to be, a child of God.

This was truly my motivation for posting it....to draw attention to the harm that can be done in the name of God, towards homosexuals, a community that is growing rapidly, and no sign of 'going away'.

One sin is just as harmful to us as the next.  There's no 'grading system'....If we've 'missed the mark' by an inch, or by a mile, we've still missed it.

My greatest concern is that precious souls are being literally abused for something they don't believe, and literally can't understand as being anything 'wrong'. 

They have come to the church, and (tho not as much, due to the following) are met with rejecteion, judgment, abandonment, abuse, humiliation, repulsion, shame, patronization, etc., etc., etc.

While there are no 'report cards' on sin, this group of people have been targeted for our fury (in some cases) and seem to get all 'F's. 

My computer screen keeps blacking out on me....so annoying!  Maybe I'll wait till I get our resident computer geek to look at it before continuing.

But before I leave....another chance to watch the video:  Oh well, couldn't find it. :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Lest anyone accuse otherwise or have missed it, I believe we're supposed to love - in fact, to do all things in love.  Lord, help me do so.  Even when sharing the "hard sayings" of God, i.e., I Cor. 6, Romans 1 and 4, etc., if/whenever led by the Spirit.  It sounds like there's a lot of "on-the-same-pageness" for sure, so this is sort of an issue that's a "hmmm, think about this", and may need its own thread.  Kicking some things around, not ready to take the plunge. :)  It may seem nit-picky on the surface, but I believe there are other related questions and issues that might even be core to some our belief systems.

Anway, the video has been referenced numerous times, including by me who "praised" it as God's miracle-working.  However, I have a little interesting (to me :) question that keeps popping up in my head, perhaps only helpful to me to consider, but maybe someone else.  It's in reference to "love saved him".  The question is, "who's love saved him".   Who's expression of love saved him?
 

Blessings.

[CHB]

Anway, the video has been referenced numerous times, including by me who "praised" it as God's miracle-working.  However, I have a little interesting (to me :) question that keeps popping up in my head, perhaps only helpful to me to consider, but maybe someone else.  It's in reference to "love saved him".  The question is, "who's love saved him".   Who's expression of love saved him?
 
Blessings.

Hi Jab, I didn't watch the video, was going to watch it now but couldn't find it. Was you referring to the video when you ask "whose love saved him"? I would have to say that it is the love of God who saves a person not any humans love. I can't answer the question as to whose love was being referred to in the video. I just know that it is God's love that saved us.

CHB

[jabcat]

I would have to say that it is the love of God who saves a person not any humans love. I can't answer the question as to whose love was being referred to in the video. I just know that it is God's love that saved us.

CHB

Hi C.  Hole in one.  :thumbsup:   It's God's love that saves.   Which to me raises other thoughts.  :)  Hint;  I believe realizing that helps some other things fit together - reconciling/pulling together other scriptures, rather than pushing them apart - i.e., "one or the other".

There are several that come to mind.  (BTW, I've been guilty of some of these and perhaps still am - but just because I'm fallible doesn't invalidate what God desires and what we should be aspiring to, and sharing in love  :2c:).  Anyway, one of the related thoughts  is, when Paul said all those things in I Corinthians about greediness, swindling, sexual immorality, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, slandering, etc...also about we should be able to judge some matters, and said "I say this to shame you".  Was he being unloving, even a "hater"?   I believe many, and often now our society on the whole likely would.  However, is it possible that love perhaps sometimes might look different and express itself differently than how it's often defined?   Blessings.

[onlytruth]

homosexuality is an "obvious sin" and I think people scapegoat it because it takes the pressure off them and their "hidden sin"
Like Lomarah said "sin is sin"and all will be revealed....thank goodness noone pickets my house when I speed!

[CHB]

I would have to say that it is the love of God who saves a person not any humans love. I can't answer the question as to whose love was being referred to in the video. I just know that it is God's love that saved us.

CHB

Hi C.  Hole in one.  :thumbsup:   It's God's love that saves.   Which to me raises other thoughts.  :)  Hint;  I believe realizing that helps some other things fit together - reconciling/pulling together other scriptures, rather than pushing them apart - i.e., "one or the other".

There are several that come to mind.  (BTW, I've been guilty of some of these and perhaps still am - but just because I'm fallible doesn't invalidate what God desires and what we should be aspiring to, and sharing in love  :2c:).  Anyway, one of the related thoughts  is, when Paul said all those things in I Corinthians about greediness, swindling, sexual immorality, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, slandering, etc...also about we should be able to judge some matters, and said "I say this to shame you".  Was he being unloving, even a "hater"?   I believe many, and often now our society on the whole likely would.  However, is it possible that love perhaps sometimes might look different and express itself differently than how it's often defined?   Blessings.

Absolutely Jab. Is God unloving becauses he chastens us for misbehaving? Doesn't it say that we would be bastards otherwise? 

(Jude 22-23) And of some have compassion, making a difference:And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

This seems to say if you love them who are doing wrong you should help them by pulling them out of the fire. Or, try to help them to see what their actions would produce/or was producing. The gay lifestyle destroys the family that God originally planned for mankind from the beginning (Gen. 2:24). Now I know all of this is within God's plan as well, maybe to help us learn how to deal with it all.  :dontknow:  I know it is all to teach us lessons. I don't believe it helps to ignore or put our heads in the sand. None of the apostles did. Everyone of them spoke out on things that caused harm, hurt, trials, anything that wasn't right.

CHB

[lomarah]

Here's that vid for anyone still looking. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsI4hhm_J2A&feature=youtu.be

Love you all!!!  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Harmony]

Thanks for the link, Lammorah!  I just finished listening to it again in it's entirety, and 'saved' it to share with others. 

[lomarah]

Awesome Harmony! It's a wonderful testimony. It's changed my life actually. It really affected me. Brought me even closer to the Lord.  :cloud9: It's a testimony for all people, not just those struggling with homosexuality.  :HeartThrob: "I love you." That's His response to all of us, all the time... "I love you."  :HeartThrob:

[Harmony]

I don't think I've ever heard such a stirring testimony regarding the issue of homosexuality. 

It's so amazing, that God really does do all the 'work'....in His time...in His way.....through us, as we yeild to Him, allowing Him to do what we simply cannot do on our own.

I think that maybe in our fervor to 'help God out' in 'saving' others, we sometimes forget that He is the vine, and we are the branches....one of the most difficult challenges for us, I think, is to 'wait upon the Lord'.

[lomarah]

Yeeeeessssss amen!!!! Preach it sister!!!! LOL :)

Amen amen amen. And when I try and change people does it work? Never ever, not once has it ever worked. It most always has the very opposite effect. HOWEVER, since the Lord has really gotten ahold of me and is able to love through me, that is when I see people change!! We are extremely hungry for love. HIS love, which is true love. Unconditional love. So we fill ourselves with garbage trying to fill that void that can never be filled with anything but God (Love). When we finally experience that love and begin to be filled with it the rest takes care of itself... there is no more room for all the garbage and we don't want it anymore because we have experienced something far far greater!!! He is awesome!!!! And everything we have ever wanted!!!!

[Molly]

I'd like to ask you guys if you believe our churches should have openly practicing homosexual ministers and priests?  If so, why?  If not, why?

[lomarah]

I'm a bad one to ask Moll lol I don't think the institutional church is the way it should be... I think the Church has one High Priest (Jesus)... and that God will ordain leaders to feed the flock as He sees fit. If He raised up a practicing homosexual that would be His prerogative. Do I think He would? No I don't. (I mean someone who openly condones and practices homosexuality, not those who struggle against it.) But I have been wrong about what He would and would not do before and He does use the "foolish" to shame the "wise". So I dunno.

[redhotmagma]

I agree Lo, it seems our issues with homosexuality have more to do with mans institutions aka babylon than what we are called to walk in.  Like I said I think in the other thread, this whole "issue" really stems from the babylonian government in the first place.  Then Molly asks a pertinent question, but again "the churches" are a function of Babylon.  Trying to legislate morality in the case of government, or force morality in the case of the institutional church just leads to a great big fail  IMO. :2c: :HeartThrob:

[ded2daworld]

IMO, the church should not have "openly practicing homosexual ministers and priests"
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing drug addicts or alcoholics as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing fornicators or pedophiles as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing adulterers or murderers as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing theives or liars, or false prophets as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing gluttony or sloth as ministers, priests, or pastors.
Basically, no one that is placed in a position of teaching or authority over another should not be in a position of an example.
Paul said to imitate him and he wished everyone was like he was. People naturally emulate those they respect so it
is not conducive to have someone in any habitual sin put up as an example or in leadership.