I haven't been able to locate the verse, but somewhere in the bible, Paul says 'all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable'.
I'd love it if someone could find that verse for me....I've been looking on biblegateway, but so far, no luck....but I KNOW it's there somewhere!
I've been following the thread about homosexuality, and have been trying to make sense of it all. For me, the bottom line is WHY do we feel the need to judge anyone for anything?
We were all born with the seeds of sin, and not one of us can boast of being 'better than' anyone else.
But I have found in several forums (different sites) that christians are notorious for bashing gays.
Even the sentiment of 'love the sinner, but not the sin' has the sting of 'bible bullets'....still judging....I'm better than you, I can offer you love, but not accept who you are.
We are so much 'better' than 'them', that we can pat them on the head and say 'there, there...'
How very arrogant!
Take a look at the beam in our own eyes before judging another. No takers?
I'm a little bit sorry for posting this, because I don't normally get involved in these sort of discussions, because they inevitably end up the same way.....people posting all the bible verses that support their particular view....and somehow forgetting the verse that says 'love thy neighbor'....
1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
Loved your post Harmony. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
I totally agree...I beleive we are all going through a heart change,so we can love as God does, it just can be a rough ride....
Our gay brothers and sisters are much loved by the Lord :HeartThrob:
The Potter has a purpose for everything he makes. We are called to assess our own sin, but it is not our place to judge others.
The same goes with "saving" people, it is not us that saves people, it is God, we merely bear his witness.
I have come to believe that oppressive Christians that take it upon themselves to condemn, harass and bully gays do so because they feel obliged too. They feel they HAVE too, they feel that with the way the world is going, things are totally out of Gods control, so therefore it is time to take matters into their own hands.
God does not need defending, he is Lord. He defends us, he is for us, ahead of us, with us. He doesn't depend on us and the choices we make to try and save people, he uses us yes, but we must not take credit for any good we do, because that is God working through us, for his own purpose.
I've come to realize how precious people are to God. So, so, so utterly precious. We are so, so, so blessed that he choose us to be the gem of his creation. There is not one person on this earth that the Lord would not die for, when this sinks into your mind one can just barley comprehend the wonder of God, I am in awe of his ways. :HeartThrob:
And then there's the verse in 1cor 6:2 that says dont you know that the saints are going to judge the world. Can you not then judge the simplest matters. It is all very confusing to me.
Actually while we're on the topic of judging and in light of the other new confession thread, here is a confession about me regarding judging - for a very long time I have made the mistake of judging people for judging people. Ha!!! Ironically hypocritical hey?!? The Lord has been setting me free from this, praise His name.
And I think you hit the nail on the head MissZ, people (mainly Christians) judge because they think they need to or that they have been called to. We each have ONE master and who are we to judge another mans servant? His Master is able to make him stand - and He will!!
Colleen we will be judging rightly, being able to see what to condemn (evil spirits/sin) and what to give mercy to (men!). This is my understanding. :HeartThrob:
yes,and for this reason..we were to judge nothing before the appointed time. [the man of lawlessness
being revealed..whom the Lord would do away with the breath of His coming.
and also that is why He commanded to the angels to let the wheat and tares grow togather until
harvest,lest by pulling up tares they uproot the wheat. In this case a tare would be an evil spirit
in the feild with a wheat[all men saved,as wheat] God removes the tares..an viola' a man free of allsin.
Quote from: lomarah on March 28, 2013, 01:06:23 AM
Actually while we're on the topic of judging and in light of the other new confession thread, here is a confession about me regarding judging - for a very long time I have made the mistake of judging people for judging people. Ha!!! Ironically hypocritical hey?!? The Lord has been setting me free from this, praise His name.
And I think you hit the nail on the head MissZ, people (mainly Christians) judge because they think they need to or that they have been called to. We each have ONE master and who are we to judge another mans servant? His Master is able to make him stand - and He will!!
I confess, I judge fundamentalists more so then gays, I am guilty of this too :HeartThrob:
Thanks lomorah and Sheila. That's helpful.
We all have our understanding, but I personally disagree that there necessarily has to be arrogance involved in attempting to understand the scriptures, and share them with ourselves (because we all need it) and with others. Paul called it speaking the truth in love. The summary of that in our current vernacular is "love the sinner, hate the sin". IMO, that includes within ourselves - not just in others.
IMO, it's called balance, or more scripturally, attempting to understand and share the whole counsel of God - not erring either way. Not condemning and being unkind, but still having the willingness to say "as I understand, here's what the scriptures say about it. Take it to God for His help and understanding". I believe God wants believers to be aware of what is sin and how the ecclesia is to function, i.e., judge behavior, but not the person, in condemnation. We've supposed to approach all things with the hope of reconciliation. I can't judge anyone - I'm not qualified, and I have my own sin. But I believe we're to know right and wrong, and with God's help and empowerment, be salt/savor and light within a world that's quickly sliding into moral relativity and "every man doing what's right in his own eyes".
So I believe it's indeed very scripturally sound to attempt to share what the scriptures say, even if someone doesn't like it or it's not PC. I get the feeling many these days would like for the Bible to just be silent, except for verses on love and things that encourage and make us feel good about ourselves and others. Many "churches" are growing, as peoples' ears are tickled/many won't "endure sound doctrine". I heard today the Unitarian Universalists have almost doubled in membership the past 10 years. They also have a segment of their "church" that is pushing for not only homosexual marriage, but of multiple people - 3,4, whatever - multiples of males and females and sexual orientation together - all "married".
Some day somebody will need to get after the Apostle Paul for all that preachin' against sin he did, and for turning the one over to satan due to his unrepentant, persistent sin. Or for his saying a believer shouldn't even eat [fellowship] with such a one. :wink1:
What is OP?
Opening Post that starts the thread. Sorry. :)
Quote from: Colleen on March 28, 2013, 01:00:17 AM
And then there's the verse in 1cor 6:2 that says dont you know that the saints are going to judge the world. Can you not then judge the simplest matters. It is all very confusing to me.
On the other side of the veil, the saints will be glorified: "We will be like Him." They will then be equipped to judge rightly.
Quote from: jabcat on March 28, 2013, 03:37:52 AM
having the willingness to say "as I understand, here's what the scriptures say about it. Take it to God for His help and understanding".
I certainly do have sins. I don't do the following, but for example; If I'm getting drunk every night and beating on my wife, and any one of us as fellow believer know about it. Do I need you to say, "it's OK James, don't worry about it. God understands, no big deal. I sure do love you brother"? Or do I need you to kindly [in love] say to me "James, will you look with me at what the scriptures say about that, and let me pray with you about it? We all fail and have sin, but God can help us overcome it"?
I understand the "can't you judge the simple matters" to be about the here and now. Paul was talking about not taking things to secular authorities about disputes within the ecclesia. I believe he's saying, again, to not judge or condemn a PERSON, but to address situations with wisdom and discernment - and yes, always in love, with the goal of reconciliation. :2c:
And then I believe he also talked about future judging as a couple others mentioned, i.e., ruling and reigning with Christ - when we're immortal and gifted with the ability to judge even more comprehensively than now. Not sure exactly what that's going to look like though, or what the tasks will be. :dontknow: Another :2c:.
Blessings, love, grace.
:iagree: Jab, :Peace2:
I hope I don't come across airy fairy with no respect for the scriptures on these boards, rereading some of my posts I kinda thought... well Sarah you sound a bit cheesy! LOL :rolllol:
Quote from: misszoolander on March 28, 2013, 04:32:12 AM
:iagree: Jab, :Peace2:
I hope I don't come across airy fairy with no respect for the scriptures on these boards, rereading some of my posts I kinda thought... well Sarah you sound a bit cheesy! LOL :rolllol:
:laugh: :happyclap:
well..we will be educated without interference of negative contrast 'gumming' us up. we will also 'watch'
or observe interaction with men and the evil spirits on earth..for we will be able to see what we can not now
we will also be able to hear how they command and condition men into sinful acts.
we will observe how they plan and lay traps to ensnare men,men being entirely unaware. we will watch
how they manipulate men's minds and bodies and then we will be able to make a just judgement
of just who the 'man of sin" is .
'those who see you stare at you..they ponder your fate,'is this the man who shook the earth,and
made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a desert and overthrew it's cities
and would not let his captives go home?..... the offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again"
Quote from: sheila on March 28, 2013, 05:24:39 AM
well..we will be educated without interference of negative contrast 'gumming' us up. we will also 'watch'
or observe interaction with men and the evil spirits on earth..for we will be able to see what we can not now
we will also be able to hear how they command and condition men into sinful acts.
we will observe how they plan and lay traps to ensnare men,men being entirely unaware. we will watch
how they manipulate men's minds and bodies and then we will be able to make a just judgement
of just who the 'man of sin" is .
'those who see you stare at you..they ponder your fate,'is this the man who shook the earth,and
made kingdoms tremble,the man who made the world a desert and overthrew it's cities
and would not let his captives go home?..... the offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again"
:2thumbs: :gimmefive:
IMO, Is the phrasing correct? WHAT give us the right? Technically, a WHAT can not empower us or give us permission. Since there is one judge, God, it is rather, Who gave us the right to judge? If we have that right, it's because he has given it to us to act on his behalf Some are so caught up in their sin that they have no idea they are even doing wrong. There are theives, pedophiles and murderers that think they have done nothing wrong. If society tells people they aren't doing anything wrong and they feel they aren't doing anything wrong, then how else will they know that God says it's wrong (which means it IS wrong) unless they are told or someone lets them know? It is always the act and not the person. When I had employees that screwed up, I didn't berate their personal life or the kind of person they were. That wouldn't have changed anything. I had to discuss the particular act or actions to get any results. In a way, same with God. If you're told you are doing something wrong and don't correct it and no one else will take the blame for you.
You will get "fired" in the consuming fire of our God to come out cleansed. :2c:
Quote from: lomarah
And Jab if you were doing that to your wife I would do more than just take you aside and say, "Now brother..." LOL. The example you gave is not a fair comparison at all.
Why would you feel the need to correct Jab for beating his wife and getting drunk and not feel the need to correct gays? Isn't one sin just as bad as the other?
By the way Jab I feel the same way as you do about this.
CHB
NO!!! LOL
If someone is beating their wife it needs to be dealt with because they are putting that life at risk/harming someone else! If I had to run around correcting everyone because of their sin all the time I would have no time left for anything else. Amen??
Seriously??? Am I the only one who finds this crazy???
And for the record I didn't mean I would be correcting Jab. I meant I would be calling the police, getting his wife out of that situation.
AND I took down my previous post because I figured it would ruffle some feathers. Apparently you got to it first CHB lol. But the gist of it is, we need to be led by the Spirit when it comes to "correcting", or anything for that matter. :2c:
Good post ded, and thanks C. CHB, exactly, let me try to show this.
Lomarah, please really think about this. I understand what you're saying regarding the social aspect re: "that's not a fair example". Generally, I think it is a fair example, but OK, take away the wife beating part. Say I get drunk every night. Or even say I also just curse my wife out every night while I'm drunk. Is that OK? Do I just need someone to love me?
What's crazy? Doing what God tells us to do? You don't believe that. And make sure and take note of full disclosure and context, not isolating statements. I have personally said repeatedly over the years you've known me to do things with love, and AS LED BY THE SPIRIT and AS GOD EMPOWERS. I've also said "I don't go around preaching at people about their sin, I know several homosexuals I've never said a word to about it, etc.". However, I also said that if I ever needed to (if I was directly asked, or if God specifically led) I hoped I'd have the nerve to do His will.
Alright, look at this. I Cor. 6 if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! I say this to shame you. Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
[1] sexually immoral
[2] nor idolaters
[3]nor adulterers
[4] nor men who have sex with men
[in Romans, it also names women with women]
[5]nor thieves
[6] nor the greedy
[7] nor drunkards
[8] nor slanderers
[9] nor swindlers
will inherit the kingdom of God
I see 2 things specifically that are in the same list. So which one of those should we overlook as believers, as salt and light?
Again, I personally am probably a wimp about it. I DON"T deal with such issues as I should as a brother. Believe it or not, I tend to gloss things over. That may shock you. I also know we can't go crusading around slamming people about sin. Again, as I've said repeatedly. I have sin, and I wouldn't want someone slamming me as in condemning me over it, or just constantly nit-picking me about my faults. That's not what this is about, IMO. It's about clear things the scripture says, in black and white, in fact, that are warnings and admonitions. So if someone had some really good ideas on helping me with some things, or was willing to say "can I pray with you about this? God can help", then wouldn't that be a true functioning of the church? I actually, along with more love, need to also have more Godly concern for my brothers and sisters, and reach out more than I do.
Just look at what Jesus said in Matthew; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."
I don't mean we should overlook it. Just that we need to be led by the Spirit when it comes to these things. People need our love, this I know. Like the vid I posted on the other thread, love is what changes people. Going to someone and saying, "You're wrong." has never worked for me and generally has the opposite effect lol! There has to be a balance. Call a spade a spade, but don't condemn that person. Love them. Get what I mean?
True love won't let a person walk in sin... BUT true love won't "condemn" a person for their sin. It takes the Spirit to be able to know what to do and say, and when to do and say it. :2c:
What I am saying is crazy is the comparison of the example of someone beating their wife and someone having homosexual behaviour. In the circumstance of someone beating someone, something needs to be done NOW... don't you think??
Quote from: jabcat on March 28, 2013, 05:55:40 PM
Again, I personally am probably a wimp about it. I DON"T deal with such issues as I should as a brother. Believe it or not, I tend to gloss things over. That may shock you. I also know we can't go crusading around slamming people about sin. Again, as I've said repeatedly. I have sin, and I wouldn't want someone slamming me as in condemning me over it, or just constantly nit-picking me about my faults. That's not what this is about, IMO. It's about clear things the scripture says, in black and white, in fact, that are warnings and admonitions. So if someone had some really good ideas on helping me with some things, or was willing to say "can I pray with you about this? God can help", then wouldn't that be a true functioning of the church? I actually, along with more love, need to also have more Godly concern for my brothers and sisters, and reach out more than I do.
Just look at what Jesus said in Matthew; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."
I think we're saying the same things actually. Apart from beating your wife and homosexual behaviour being a good comparison lol. :)
Christian: You Are Salt and Light
Michael Youssef , Leading the Way
Jesus said that we are "the salt of the earth" and "the light of the world". Being salt and light is not optional. Jesus did not say you can be...or you have the potential to be...He said you are. Everyone who has trusted Christ for salvation and is born again is the salt of the earth and the light of the world.
Salt
The value of salt, especially in the ancient world can not be under estimated. Roman soldiers received their wages in salt. The Greeks considered salt to be divine. The Mosaic Law required that all offerings presented by the Israelites contain salt. (Lev. 2:13) When Jesus told his disciples that they were "the salt of the earth", as recorded in Matthew 5:13, they understood the metaphor. While the universal importance of salt is not as readily apparent in our modern world, the mandate that Jesus gave to his first disciples is still relevant and applicable to His followers today.
What are the characteristics of salt that caused the Lord to use it in this context? Theologians have different theories about the meaning of "salt" in Matthew 5:13. Some think that its whiteness represents the purity of the justified believer. Others say that salt's flavoring properties imply that Christians are to add divine flavor to the world. Still others believe that Christians are to sting the world with rebuke and judgment the way salt stings an open wound. Another group asserts that, as salt, Christians are to create a thirst for Christ. Salt, however, has another vital purpose which is probably what the Lord had in mind-it stops decay. When Jesus said, "You are the salt of the earth", He meant that all of His disciples were to serve as preservatives, stopping the moral decay in our sin infected world.
Those first disciples would have been intimately familiar with this function of salt. Without refrigeration, the fish that they caught would quickly spoil and rot unless they were packed in salt. Once salted, the fish could be safely stored and then used when needed. The spiritual health and strength of the Christian is to counteract the corruption that is in the world. Christians, as salt, are to inhibit sin's power to destroy lives. This in turn creates opportunity for the gospel to be proclaimed and received.
We have been given a wonderful privilege to be the salt of the earth, but Jesus gave us a warning. The second half of Matthew 5:13 states: "But if salt loses its taste, how would its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trodden underfoot by men". Jesus did not say that we can lose our salvation; He said that we can lose our saltiness. When salt is contaminated it becomes corrosive and poisonous. Contaminated salt cannot even be used for fertilizer on the field, so it has to be thrown on the road. If we have allowed disobedience, carelessness and indifference to rule our lives, we have become contaminated salt and have lost our saltiness. We need to confess our sin and let the Lord restore us to the purpose for which we were called.
Light
In Matthew 5:14, Jesus tells His disciples, "You are the light of the world". As "salt", the Christian is to counteract the power of sin. As "light" we are to illuminate or make visible. Our lives are to be an on-going witness to the reality of Christ's presence in our lives. When we worship God with pure hearts, when we love others as ourselves, and when we do good without growing weary, we are lights shining. It is important, however to know that it is not our light, but the reflection of the Light of the world, Jesus Christ Himself, that people will see in us.
http://www.christianity.com/bible/christian-you-are-salt-and-light-11596480.html
Quote from: lomarah on March 28, 2013, 06:01:16 PM
I don't mean we should overlook it. Just that we need to be led by the Spirit when it comes to these things. People need our love, this I know. Like the vid I posted on the other thread, love is what changes people. Going to someone and saying, "You're wrong." has never worked for me and generally has the opposite effect lol! There has to be a balance. Call a spade a spade, but don't condemn that person. Love them. Get what I mean?
Yes, thank you for that. The same thing I've been saying, but don't do very well.
Quote from: lomarah on March 28, 2013, 06:01:16 PM
True love won't let a person walk in sin... BUT true love won't "condemn" a person for their sin. It takes the Spirit to be able to know what to do and say, and when to do and say it. :2c:
What I am saying is crazy is the comparison of the example of someone beating their wife and someone having homosexual behaviour. In the circumstance of someone beating someone, something needs to be done NOW... don't you think??
What I think is, society and the church is falling apart right as we both type in front of our eyes, and it's truly all an emergency. All sin hurts people, and society and the church at large -
now! Also, in the future, as ded said, all that will have to be disposed of/rooted out, and best done now - AS GOD LEADS AND EMPOWERS. That's why Apostle Paul said to deal with it.
But the constant lie we're told over and over that if we stand for God's truths - even IN LOVE [God help me, because I don't do it well and
need more love] - we're a "hater", "hypocrite", "intolerant", is being believed, and most of us [ME INCLUDED!] are rolling over and playing dead, believing the lie. Although there are exceptions, as a whole, I believe we're becoming impotent, sterile. God's convicted me lately of "giving up" - of not being salt and light. (And that includes love).
"All we need is love" (sang by the Beatles, before they fought and broke up) has become our delusion, and we're watching the world go to "hell" right before our eyes. :2c:
Herein lies my own issue and probably Harmony's issue as well: I have seen many, many people who think they are being the salt and light of the earth while in reality they are tearing their brothers and sisters to shreds. (I HAVE BEEN A PART OF THIS TOO!! Still am from time to time.) "Judgment" without love is not true judgment, amen??
True judgment draws out the sin and darkness, in LOVE for that person... it does not bash the "sinner" over the head with it amen?? This is where there needs to be balance and walking in the light of the Spirit of Love. :2c: :2c: :2c:
BTW, Harmony knows I'm not just "bashing" her, either. We've talked. Thank you Harmony :)
But that's the thing. Yes, sometimes we're/folks are unkind and need to re-think and repent of some things sometimes. But in these recent discussions, I haven't seen anyone teaching we should bash people. So, yes, I definitely agree with what you said. Balance, taking in the whole counsel, not erring one way or the other. Not condemning people, always sharing in love, but still, sharing the truth of the scriptures as given by the Holy Spirit. God help us do that, because we're all clay, weak, and fallible. Staying in prayer for people, loving them. But God's ways and His statutes are not PC. He said we should expect to be hated by the world. Are any of us hated for the stand we take (besides me right now? :laugh:) :HeartThrob:
So I believe what you just said is what we need to say, :thumbsup: not on the whole to give into repeating the same things the world is telling us, in their attempt to snuff out the light and trod under feet the salt.
No, and I never meant that you were bashing anyone jab, I'm just trying to better explain what I'm saying (and what I think Harmony might be saying). I am thinking of people like Westboro Baptist church, etc (as an extreme example). But on a smaller scale, even us as we give our disapproving looks or disapproving posts (even when we have to "read between the lines"). Sin is sin is sin, but it is sin because it HURTS PEOPLE... it HURTS PEOPLE... it's not because it's "wrong" because it's "wrong"... it's wrong because it HURTS PEOPLE!! Love the "sinner", hate the "sin", but hate the sin BECAUSE it is hurting the sinner!! Amen??
Westboro Baptist Church is a church of HATE (oops, I judged them)
They hate the sin, the sinner, everybody that doesn't believe and think like them,
and they are gleeful that everyone but them is going to suffer eternal concious torment at the hands of the sick,
psychotic God they worship.
Sadly, they are misguided fools following an even bigger misguided fool they call a pastor.
They really give Baptists a bad name and make christians look exactly like what we are perceived by atheists to be:
Hateful, judgmental, and happy those that don't agree with them are going to be tortured.
Don't get me started... oh and here's my IMO and :2c: though I actually would be curious if anyone is offended by what I said and NOT offended by what Westboro Baptist says.
Hello Brothers and Sisters,
I don't have a lot of time this morning to go into any real depth of the purpose of starting this thread. But the thread has been a very interesting read!
By the way Lammorah, I loved that video you posted. I wish everyone would watch it before continuing in this discussion. It really lays it all out there, from the heart of a former homosexual, who was, and continues to be, a child of God.
This was truly my motivation for posting it....to draw attention to the harm that can be done in the name of God, towards homosexuals, a community that is growing rapidly, and no sign of 'going away'.
One sin is just as harmful to us as the next. There's no 'grading system'....If we've 'missed the mark' by an inch, or by a mile, we've still missed it.
My greatest concern is that precious souls are being literally abused for something they don't believe, and literally can't understand as being anything 'wrong'.
They have come to the church, and (tho not as much, due to the following) are met with rejecteion, judgment, abandonment, abuse, humiliation, repulsion, shame, patronization, etc., etc., etc.
While there are no 'report cards' on sin, this group of people have been targeted for our fury (in some cases) and seem to get all 'F's.
My computer screen keeps blacking out on me....so annoying! Maybe I'll wait till I get our resident computer geek to look at it before continuing.
But before I leave....another chance to watch the video: Oh well, couldn't find it. :dontknow:
Lest anyone accuse otherwise or have missed it, I believe we're supposed to love - in fact, to do all things in love. Lord, help me do so. Even when sharing the "hard sayings" of God, i.e., I Cor. 6, Romans 1 and 4, etc., if/whenever led by the Spirit. It sounds like there's a lot of "on-the-same-pageness" for sure, so this is sort of an issue that's a "hmmm, think about this", and may need its own thread. Kicking some things around, not ready to take the plunge. :) It may seem nit-picky on the surface, but I believe there are other related questions and issues that might even be core to some our belief systems.
Anway, the video has been referenced numerous times, including by me who "praised" it as God's miracle-working. However, I have a little interesting (to me :) question that keeps popping up in my head, perhaps only helpful to me to consider, but maybe someone else. It's in reference to "love saved him". The question is, "who's love saved him". Who's expression of love saved him?
Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on March 28, 2013, 10:25:33 PM
Anway, the video has been referenced numerous times, including by me who "praised" it as God's miracle-working. However, I have a little interesting (to me :) question that keeps popping up in my head, perhaps only helpful to me to consider, but maybe someone else. It's in reference to "love saved him". The question is, "who's love saved him". Who's expression of love saved him?
Blessings.
Hi Jab, I didn't watch the video, was going to watch it now but couldn't find it. Was you referring to the video when you ask "whose love saved him"? I would have to say that it is the love of God who saves a person not any humans love. I can't answer the question as to whose love was being referred to in the video. I just know that it is God's love that saved us.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 29, 2013, 12:08:51 AM
I would have to say that it is the love of God who saves a person not any humans love. I can't answer the question as to whose love was being referred to in the video. I just know that it is God's love that saved us.
CHB
Hi C. Hole in one. :thumbsup: It's God's love that saves. Which to me raises other thoughts. :) Hint; I believe realizing that helps some other things fit together - reconciling/pulling together other scriptures, rather than pushing them apart - i.e., "one or the other".
There are several that come to mind. (BTW, I've been guilty of some of these and perhaps still am - but just because I'm fallible doesn't invalidate what God desires and what we should be aspiring to, and sharing in love :2c:). Anyway, one of the related thoughts is, when Paul said all those things in I Corinthians about greediness, swindling, sexual immorality, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, slandering, etc...also about we should be able to judge some matters, and said "I say this to shame you". Was he being unloving, even a "hater"? I believe many, and often now our society on the whole likely would. However, is it possible that love
perhaps sometimes might look different and express itself differently than how it's often defined? Blessings.
homosexuality is an "obvious sin" and I think people scapegoat it because it takes the pressure off them and their "hidden sin"
Like Lomarah said "sin is sin"and all will be revealed....thank goodness noone pickets my house when I speed!
Quote from: jabcat on March 29, 2013, 12:35:55 AM
Quote from: CHB on March 29, 2013, 12:08:51 AM
I would have to say that it is the love of God who saves a person not any humans love. I can't answer the question as to whose love was being referred to in the video. I just know that it is God's love that saved us.
CHB
Hi C. Hole in one. :thumbsup: It's God's love that saves. Which to me raises other thoughts. :) Hint; I believe realizing that helps some other things fit together - reconciling/pulling together other scriptures, rather than pushing them apart - i.e., "one or the other".
There are several that come to mind. (BTW, I've been guilty of some of these and perhaps still am - but just because I'm fallible doesn't invalidate what God desires and what we should be aspiring to, and sharing in love :2c:). Anyway, one of the related thoughts is, when Paul said all those things in I Corinthians about greediness, swindling, sexual immorality, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, slandering, etc...also about we should be able to judge some matters, and said "I say this to shame you". Was he being unloving, even a "hater"? I believe many, and often now our society on the whole likely would. However, is it possible that love perhaps sometimes might look different and express itself differently than how it's often defined? Blessings.
Absolutely Jab. Is God unloving becauses he chastens us for misbehaving? Doesn't it say that we would be bastards otherwise?
(Jude 22-23) And of some have compassion, making a difference:And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
This seems to say if you love them who are doing wrong you should help them by pulling them out of the fire. Or, try to help them to see what their actions would produce/or was producing. The gay lifestyle destroys the family that God originally planned for mankind from the beginning (Gen. 2:24). Now I know all of this is within God's plan as well, maybe to help us learn how to deal with it all. :dontknow: I know it is all to teach us lessons. I don't believe it helps to ignore or put our heads in the sand. None of the apostles did. Everyone of them spoke out on things that caused harm, hurt, trials, anything that wasn't right.
CHB
Here's that vid for anyone still looking. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsI4hhm_J2A&feature=youtu.be
Love you all!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Thanks for the link, Lammorah! I just finished listening to it again in it's entirety, and 'saved' it to share with others.
Awesome Harmony! It's a wonderful testimony. It's changed my life actually. It really affected me. Brought me even closer to the Lord. :cloud9: It's a testimony for all people, not just those struggling with homosexuality. :HeartThrob: "I love you." That's His response to all of us, all the time... "I love you." :HeartThrob:
I don't think I've ever heard such a stirring testimony regarding the issue of homosexuality.
It's so amazing, that God really does do all the 'work'....in His time...in His way.....through us, as we yeild to Him, allowing Him to do what we simply cannot do on our own.
I think that maybe in our fervor to 'help God out' in 'saving' others, we sometimes forget that He is the vine, and we are the branches....one of the most difficult challenges for us, I think, is to 'wait upon the Lord'.
Yeeeeessssss amen!!!! Preach it sister!!!! LOL :)
Amen amen amen. And when I try and change people does it work? Never ever, not once has it ever worked. It most always has the very opposite effect. HOWEVER, since the Lord has really gotten ahold of me and is able to love through me, that is when I see people change!! We are extremely hungry for love. HIS love, which is true love. Unconditional love. So we fill ourselves with garbage trying to fill that void that can never be filled with anything but God (Love). When we finally experience that love and begin to be filled with it the rest takes care of itself... there is no more room for all the garbage and we don't want it anymore because we have experienced something far far greater!!! He is awesome!!!! And everything we have ever wanted!!!!
I'd like to ask you guys if you believe our churches should have openly practicing homosexual ministers and priests? If so, why? If not, why?
I'm a bad one to ask Moll lol I don't think the institutional church is the way it should be... I think the Church has one High Priest (Jesus)... and that God will ordain leaders to feed the flock as He sees fit. If He raised up a practicing homosexual that would be His prerogative. Do I think He would? No I don't. (I mean someone who openly condones and practices homosexuality, not those who struggle against it.) But I have been wrong about what He would and would not do before and He does use the "foolish" to shame the "wise". So I dunno.
I agree Lo, it seems our issues with homosexuality have more to do with mans institutions aka babylon than what we are called to walk in. Like I said I think in the other thread, this whole "issue" really stems from the babylonian government in the first place. Then Molly asks a pertinent question, but again "the churches" are a function of Babylon. Trying to legislate morality in the case of government, or force morality in the case of the institutional church just leads to a great big fail IMO. :2c: :HeartThrob:
IMO, the church should not have "openly practicing homosexual ministers and priests"
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing drug addicts or alcoholics as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing fornicators or pedophiles as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing adulterers or murderers as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing theives or liars, or false prophets as ministers, priests, or pastors.
IMO, the church should not have openly practicing gluttony or sloth as ministers, priests, or pastors.
Basically, no one that is placed in a position of teaching or authority over another should not be in a position of an example.
Paul said to imitate him and he wished everyone was like he was. People naturally emulate those they respect so it
is not conducive to have someone in any habitual sin put up as an example or in leadership.
I believe the normal (and only indispensable) meeting of the Eclessia should be conducted in a "round table structure." Each one of us needs to exercise and be judged of the others in our expression of Christ as we progress corporately and individually to the Perfect Man, no less than all coming into the fullness of Christ. It would follow that the people there would know one another. Christ the head leads forth through any born of Him and the elders guard this liberty. No one is allowed to take over the meeting. Those presently practicing things that insure they are not inheriting the kingdom of God are not going to be allowed to "minister." (It's transparent to the consensus in such fellowships that they're incapable of ministry.) All are subject to one another for whatever reasons anyway,
When it comes to special "lecture structure" meetings, which are for beginning instructions, special visiting ministries, even someone teaching the scripture, hardly anyone else is participating. We act as an audience for someone's ministry. These are the type of meetings to which practicing homosexuals could be more welcome for a season. I feel all Christians meetings are semi-private, or even by invitation only, unless we intentionally engage in a more evangelistic outreach in the community. While not just everyone can "minister" among us, closed in that sense, remember Jesus, Who we follow, said, "I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."
It is really horrible that so much of Churchianity has only ritualistic performances or the 1550's Reformation lecture structure (what I call,"march in, sit down and shut up;" or, "3 songs and a sermon," then, we flee to our cars) to choose from for how to meet. Scripture expressly says, "What, then, is it, brethren? Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation. Let all occur to edification." (1 Co 1426 Concordant Literal) Also, "...my brethren, be zealous to be prophesying, and the speaking in languages do not forbid." (vs 39)
Quote from: reFORMer on March 29, 2013, 09:18:35 PM
I believe the normal (and only indispensable) meeting of the Eclessia should be conducted in a "round table structure." Each one of us needs to exercise and be judged of the others in our expression of Christ as we progress corporately and individually to the Perfect Man, no less than all coming into the fullness of Christ. It would follow that the people there would know one another. Christ the head leads forth through any born of Him and the elders guard this liberty. No one is allowed to take over the meeting. Those presently practicing things that insure they are not inheriting the kingdom of God are not going to be allowed to "minister." All are subject to one another for whatever reasons anyway,
When it comes to special "lecture structure" meetings, which are for beginning instructions, special visiting ministries, even someone teaching the scripture, hardly anyone else is participating. We act as an audience for someone's ministry. These are the type of meetings to which practicing homosexuals could be more welcome for a season. I feel all Christians meetings are semi-private, or even by invitation only, unless we intentionally engage in a more evangelistic outreach in the community. While not just everyone can "minister" among us, closed in that sense, remember Jesus, Who we follow, said, "I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."
It is really horrible that so much of Churchianity has only ritualistic performances or the 1550's Reformation lecture structure (what I call,"march in, sit down and shut up;" or, "3 songs and a sermon," then, we flee to our cars) to choose from for how to meet. Scripture expressly says, "What, then, is it, brethren? Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation. Let all occur to edification." (1 Co 1426 Concordant Literal) Also, "...my brethren, be zealous to be prophesying, and the speaking in languages do not forbid." (vs 39)
:thumbsup:
Yeah amen reF. :thumbsup:
If the Lord wills I am going to get to travel this summer to meet face to face with a few sisters... I can't even tell you how excited I am... true ecclesia!!! :banana:
What I meant about the Lord raising up leaders to feed His flock was not that the others are not involved at all, rather that the leaders help feed the flock as they grow and mature in Him (by HIS ordination... you will know if He has ordained someone to feed you or if He has ordained you to feed others.) I have never been able to meet together with believers who flow in the Spirit before but I can imagine (and what I've heard) is that He gives each one gifts to share with the rest so that each member is edified and an active part of the body. Actually even with the body on here this is true.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 29, 2013, 06:59:31 PM
I agree Lo, it seems our issues with homosexuality have more to do with mans institutions
Man's institutions are indeed an issue I believe. However, as far as the issue
itself, Paul had some direct and blunt things to say about it - along with
any sin. As I understand, it's
all to be turned from - whatever it is that "so easily besets us" as Paul said. But willpower doesn't work. I believe it's admitting there's a problem, surrending it to the Lord, and looking to Him (walking after the spirit rather than the flesh) that "works" -
His works. I do this with my own sin - I turn it over, but then eventually I pick it back up again - in weakness and/or by trying to trick myself that it's really OK to stuff my face until I'm almost sick - I tell myself "all things are lawful". Then I do exactly what the Lord has convicted me not to do.
I believe it's 2-sided. God wants us to be delivered and generally not bound by sin, i.e., as ded said, not "openly", uncaringly practicing it, while we try to justify it in our own mind, harming ourself, and perhaps also leading someone else astray, damaging
their faith and walk. I've done that, and it's a fearsome thing to avoid IMO ("millstone"). However, I also believe He allows us sometimes to struggle with certain things, and even to fail and fall. I believe He wants us to learn by those failures several things;
Sin doesn't work.
Trying to justify it, explain it away doesn't work.
Trying to do it ourselves doesn't work.
We need to constantly look to and trust in Him.
Only He has the power to save, heal and deliver.
Blessings.
Re: Only He has the power to save, heal, deliver
I found this wonderful, short, all inclusive hymn a couple of days ago... based on Gal 2:20 "I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us, and gave Himself for us."
HIS IS THE LOVE Fraser, 1899
His is the love we live by,
And His the blood that saves;
His is the grace we stand by,
The only grace that saves.
Refrain
His love, His love,
Its tide is flowing free;
His is the love to live by,
His is the love for me.
His is the love we live by,
Who died to set us free;
His is the arm we win by,
Our all sufficiency.
His is the love we live by;
No other love so dear;
His is the love we'll die by,
Which casteth out all fear.
:thumbsup: Amen.
Ded, I am perplexed by your wording of "openly". So it's ok if they're practicing these things secretly? I am sure you didn't mean that, and so I am perplexed.
I used the word "openly" because someone before me did and doing things out in the open is a statement to the world that you do not think your sin is wrong. If one is trying to hide their sin, they must at least think it is wrong.
My point is, a preacher living openly in adultery is in no position to counsel another person against it - the same goes for any other sin. Doing the sin "openly" obviously means you don't think it's wrong. It's why we (society)don't overeat in public(usually) or do drugs in public. or commit adultery in front of friends or family members. We know it's wrong so we "do it secretly" or as Paul said "in the dark" or "in a corner"
If you want to say I'm saying Gays are wrong and they are sinning and even allowing it to be practiced "openly" is wrong, then you're right.
I'm saying it to them and to theives and fornicators and murderers and adulterers and liars. That stuff is wrong. Period. IGO
Quote from: Colleen on March 30, 2013, 03:37:15 PM
Ded, I am perplexed by your wording of "openly". So it's ok if they're practicing these things secretly? I am sure you didn't mean that, and so I am perplexed.
He was just answering my question. That's the way I worded the question. That's what's going on in my neck of the woods.
This was on facebook last night. It touched my heart, wise words from Mother T. :) I wasn't sure where to post it then I saw the title of this thread and thought, why not lol.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag144/hollyannblunden/MotherT2_zps6dd410b7.jpg)
Quote from: lomarah on March 30, 2013, 04:54:46 PM
This was on facebook last night. It touched my heart, wise words from Mother T. :) I wasn't sure where to post it then I saw the title of this thread and thought, why not lol.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag144/hollyannblunden/MotherT2_zps6dd410b7.jpg)
lomara, what does it mean to judge someone? Is speaking the truth judging someone? blue is blue and green is green, how else can you see them.
Homosexuality is wrong and there is no way around it, if that is judging someone then so be it. A spade is a spade.
CHB
Hi C!
True judgment sees the person, not the sin. True judgment sees the spirit tormenting the person. True judgment sees a precious human being who is being taken advantage of by evil spirits as much as the rest of us are, whatever the sin may be. True judgment hates the spirit, hates the evil, because the evil spirit is harming that person. See? :HeartThrob:
I agree, that is why we should try to help them, not enable them.
You don't hand an alcoholic a drink and say have a nice day. At least I am not going to.
CHB
I was thinking about all of the post that seemed to say we should just accept the homosexuals for who they are and don't mention the fact that it is a sin that they need to change or point them to God.
Here is how I feel the world is going.
Concordant:
14 "And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:
15 "'"I am aware of your acts, that neither cool are you nor zealous! Would that you were cool or zealous!
16 Thus, seeing that you are indifferent, and are neither zealous nor cool, I am about to spew you out of My mouth.
17 Seeing that you are saying that 'Rich am I!' and 'Rich have I become, and of nothing have I need!' and you are not aware that you are wretched and forlorn and poor and blind and naked,
18 I am advising you to buy of Me gold refined by the fire, that you should be rich, and white garments, that you may be clothed and the shame of your nakedness may not be made manifest, and eye-salve to anoint your eyes, that you may be observing.
19 "'"Whosoever I may be fond of, I am exposing and disciplining. Be zealous, then, and repent!
Notice the last verse: "Whosoever I MAY BE FOND OF, I am exposing and disciplining.
Also the 16th verse. 16 Thus, seeing that you are indifferent, and are neither zealous nor cool, I am about to spew you out of My mouth.
CHB
Nobody is saying don't lead them to God!! We are saying the exact opposite!! Show them His love!!! Which is exactly what He did to Willie!! (See video.) He never even told him to get rid of his boyfriend!! He just filled him with His love and the void that Willie was filling with homosexual lust, God filled with what it was supposed to be filled with in the first place!
I watched the video and I agree with God filling our hearts with love and all that but I heard him say he wasn't practicing a gay lifestyle anymore. God convicted him and showed him that behavior was wrong. Sometimes God himself deals with us and sometimes he uses us to deal with others.
First off the Church and laity didn't help him any, they just threw him out. Things may have turned out different if they would have given him love and teaching, guided him in the right direction...not look the other way though...but God had other plans he was going to handle it himself.
Did you not hear them both say that anyone should speak up inh love about homosexuality if given the opportunity? Listen to the video again.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 30, 2013, 10:02:56 PM
I watched the video and I agree with God filling our hearts with love and all that but I heard him say he wasn't practicing a gay lifestyle anymore. God convicted him and showed him that behavior was wrong. Sometimes God himself deals with us and sometimes he uses us to deal with others.
First off the Church and laity didn't help him any, they just threw him out. Things may have turned out different if they would have given him love and teaching, guided him in the right direction...not look the other way though...but God had other plans he was going to handle it himself.
Did you not hear them both say that anyone should speak up inh love about homosexuality if given the opportunity? Listen to the video again.
CHB
Excellent points. We can get so wrapped up in only one aspect of something - I missed that. Good find. And of course, IMO, that's what the scriptures say, to any of us that will hear.
Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
James 5:19,20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
Galatians 6:1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.
The next passage is if a sin is against a person in particular - Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
I don't want to mislead. To correct and clarify I added to my post #50 on page 3 what is in bold black type here...
I believe the normal (and only indispensable) meeting of the Eclessia should be conducted in a "round table structure." Each one of us needs to exercise and be judged of the others in our expression of Christ as we progress corporately and individually to the Perfect Man, no less than all coming into the fullness of Christ. It would follow that the people there would know one another. Christ the head leads forth through any born of Him and the elders guard this liberty. No one is allowed to take over the meeting. Those presently practicing things that insure they are not inheriting the kingdom of God are not going to be allowed to "minister." (It's transparent to the consensus in such fellowships that they're incapable of ministry.) All are subject to one another for whatever reasons anyway,
When it comes to special "lecture structure" meetings, which are for beginning instructions, special visiting ministries, even someone teaching the scripture, hardly anyone else is participating. We act as an audience for someone's ministry. These are the type of meetings to which practicing homosexuals could be more welcome for a season. I feel all Christians meetings are semi-private, or even by invitation only, unless we intentionally engage in a more evangelistic outreach in the community. While not just everyone can "minister" among us, closed in that sense, remember Jesus, Who we follow, said, "I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."
It is really horrible that so much of Churchianity has only ritualistic performances or the 1550's Reformation lecture structure (what I call,"march in, sit down and shut up;" or, "3 songs and a sermon," then, we flee to our cars) to choose from for how to meet. Scripture expressly says, "What, then, is it, brethren? Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation. Let all occur to edification." (1 Co 1426 Concordant Literal) Also, "...my brethren, be zealous to be prophesying, and the speaking in languages do not forbid." (vs 39)