I've often thought of all the different denominations, opinions, disparate views, teachings, Bible translations, etc. IMO, there obviously is a lot of error, none of us 100% in error, none of us 100% knowing all truth. We all have our own personalities, emotional and mental capabilities and liabilities that come into play. I believe there definitely are outright deceivers, charlatans just seeking power, glory, money ("Lord, Lord, didn't we...?). Also, I believe there are well-meaning people that don't have a spiritual basis from which to share, so just share through logic and the natural mind. And lastly, I believe there are those who are spiritually reborn through saving faith in Yashua Messiah, some having vast amounts of truth and sharing some great things for consideration and edification. Yet we all look through a glass darkly, none of us has every single bit of truth, and have our points of inadequacy - even the capacity to be fooled ourselves and lead others astray, albeit unknowingly and unintentionally.
There are thousands of denominations and hundreds of Bible translations. They/we obviously can't all be right. The scriptures mean what they mean, no prophecy (a divinely inspired utterance or revelation) is for private interpretation. When God spoke/speaks, I don't believe He is vague or unsure or doesn't know what He means. Yet humanity, including Christendom, is scattered all over the place. And I've thought, "WHAT A MESS!"
Gary A. has stated that this is an age of the mixture of truth and error. How I agree. And it's puzzled me quite a bit. I believe God works all things according to the counsel of His will. So what's His will? If He wanted everything 100% perfectly clear at this moment, He could "snap His fingers" and make it so - instantly. So as it appears to my limited view at times, why do we have "all the mess"?
Maybe it's not a mess after all, because He's working it all to fulfill His plan!
Given that I don't believe we can always understand God's ways, still, today it came to me that perhaps the reason is, that in our human experience full of such confusion and uncertainty, we are "forced" to look to HIM and trust in HIM? That even when all else fails, people you counted on let you down, disappoint you, even come against you - HE is there? There with an "easy yoke", ready to comfort, ready to speak and calm the seas? Could it be that everything else around is made to be so frail and unpredictable, that of necessity, our focus is continually being brought back to Him, THE ROCK, and for us to remember to hide in the cleft of the Rock?
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, You are with me. Your rod and your staff comfort me. I will dwell in the House of the Lord ["your presence"] forever." Amen.
"Be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world".
Now jab here is a post that I can give a very hearty
AMEN!!!!
:dsunny:
(Def felt the Spirit there!)
gr, good post, and I think this topic is pretty wide open and can go in many directions.
I guess in general, I've presented a main thought I have about why all the confusion and frailty of this lowered condition. So running that out there, as well as it's open to others' thoughts of why, what's the purpose (not to "question God" exactly, but more so to better understand - either way, I believe it's ours to humble ourselves before Him and just trust Him.)
The thought of testing is a good one that I hadn't thought of exactly. I agree.
What can be shaken will, we are being led to listen to the spirit,but as we do I hope we all will remain friends in order to encourage each other
Blessings to all in the desert
"For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to [his] ways." (Job 3411 KJV)
"Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek [it] out, yet he shall not find [it]; yea further; though a wise [man] think to know [it], yet shall he not be able to find [it]." (Ecc 817 KJV)
I haven't found the verse yet, but the second half, the meaning of which I am more certain exists, says something like, "...that thou canst not find out His ways." Perhaps the first part, which I am less certain is the reason for the second part, says something like, "For verily He is a God that hideth Himself..." There just seem to be no matches in blueletterbible.
Certainly, you are a God who has hidden himself. You are the God of Israel, the Savior!
--Isa 45:15
"'God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Joseph," not of philosophers and scholars."
--Blaise Pascal
In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him. (Ecc 714)
I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.
--Gen 31:13
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am El-Shaddai--'God Almighty.'
--Gen 17:1
One of the points about ages seems to be covered to many and known by some.
There is an age to come before the Great White Throne. IMO this is a time to do much explaining and clarifying about who we really are and what was going on while we were in the previous age where the ruler of that age and world was satan.
Christ acknowledged satan was ruler when He was tested in the wilderness. But He then stated that He was of a different world;
John 18;36 " My kingdom is NOT of this world: If My kingdom had been of this world mine own officers wpuld have been striving that I should not be delivered up to the Jews."
This seems to highlight that the plan goes much deeper than we are able to perceive and is so specific.
This would seem to be highlighted in 1 Cor 15;22,23 " For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christshall ALL be made alive, BUT each IN HIS OWN RANK;
Christ a firstfruit,
after that they who are the Christ's in His presence,
afterwards the end.."
1 Cor 15;24,25 " Afterwards the end, whensoever He shall bring to nought ALL rules
and ALL authority,
and power;
for He must needs reign until He shall put ALL His enemies under His feet."
unknown amount of time/ages while people are learning the significance of who we are, and why we are here, and what this is all about as people are taught.
In my previous I notice saying an age to come before the Great White Throne- this is not meant to be a separate age to the G.W.T but participating in the actual age
I just read that verse yesterday!
I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top." (Psa. 102:7)
Sparrows are not always seen alone, as this one is, but this lone-liness is more in the nature of the bigger birds.
I am like a pelican of the wilderness: I am like an owl of the desert. (Psa 102:6)
As important as groups are, our God wants us alone, and communicating just with him.
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety. (Psa 18:2)
So most of the scriptures referenced in the thread seem to me to be saying that God only allows us to know/understand so much; purposefully not giving us the full picture or full view of Himself. If so, I agree, and it goes along with the "mess" of the OP. "Know" and understand what He gives us to, but always, trust and belief in HIM. :2c:
There was also a post that now is missing for some reason :dontknow: that suggested there could be a 'testing' component involved.
If so, even though underneath it all is a need to trust Him, if we're being tested, wouldn't that be to sharpen our search and strengthen what truth we do find?
Good questions, Jab. I have often thought it is a wonder that we knoww anything. From personal experience, up till a couple years ago, I was rooted and acted in some beliefs that I thought were true. I fiercely guarded myself from "wrong doctrine" and would only read what fit in with those narrow views. On top of that, bouts of terrible self doubt and depression clouded anything positive about God. How did God get through to me? I was too desperate to say no. When He showed me the real gospel, I had no walls left that I cared protecting. The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile, for He will do as He wills. What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing when we shall know as we are also known. What a glorious day that will be. Till then abide in faith, hope and love. Jesus come quickly!
Amen Deena!
Quote from: Deena on August 04, 2012, 09:55:58 PM
Good questions, Jab. I have often thought it is a wonder that we knoww anything. From personal experience, up till a couple years ago, I was rooted and acted in some beliefs that I thought were true. I fiercely guarded myself from "wrong doctrine" and would only read what fit in with those narrow views. On top of that, bouts of terrible self doubt and depression clouded anything positive about God. How did God get through to me? I was too desperate to say no. When He showed me the real gospel, I had no walls left that I cared protecting. The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile, for He will do as He wills. What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing when we shall know as we are also known. What a glorious day that will be. Till then abide in faith, hope and love. Jesus come quickly!
Beautiful. :gthumbsup:
for we were born only yesterday and know nothing, and our days on earth are but a shadow.
The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
Know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live.
When we look at all the religious doctrines ,mysterious and spiritually enlightening
verses of the bible.
A person can't learn any more about God than Jesus.
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 05, 2012, 04:13:16 AM
for we were born only yesterday and know nothing, and our days on earth are but a shadow.
The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
Know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live.
When we look at all the religious doctrines ,mysterious and spiritually enlightening
verses of the bible.
A person can't learn any more about God than Jesus.
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Deena on August 04, 2012, 09:55:58 PM
The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile,...... What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing
Deena, I can hardly express in words how much I have the same musings. A few weeks ago I listened to the country singer Reba McIntyre be interviewed about her Christian walk. At the end of the interview a question posed to her was: "When you see God face to face, what is going to be your first question?" She responded with: "Why".
The context Reba placed it in had everything to do with this discussion but with a focus on human pain (the central nervous system of the human body), all the same things I have been screaming at God about for several years now. Why all this pain? Why is it so necessary on top of all the confusing about doctrine? After literally screaming to God for an answer to her question because I don't want to wait as long as she does for an answer, I discovered it. Read Ecc 1: 13. Read it in any translation but in Concordant it reads:"It is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it", other translations use "affliction". And Ecc 3: 10-11 expands upon this in addition to God stating he has deliberately placed us in obscurity about his plan (vs. 11).
The only way I can logically understand these two above noted passages, is that God created us in decadent bodies with a central nervous system solely for the experience of feeling pain, no other reason. None of the celestial hosts of heaven, save for Christ himself, have ever had the experience of bodily pain & decadence. It is precisely for this reason we will forever rule over them in Christ's Kingdom that will be without end. Bodily pain creates feelings of humility which the celestial hosts cannot feel, that is why demonic spirits truly do believe but "repent not" as Christ stated it, if there are no painful consequences to evil deeds then there is no incentive to change evil patterns of behavior.
Why do you think Satan & a third of the heavenly hosts have been rebelling against God from time immemorial? They have never been made to suffer the consequences of their actions, but we feel it every time we sprain an ankle or hit a finger with a hammer. Satan & the demonic hosts who populate the Universe were never created in God's visible image (as opposed to demonics who have animalistic features), all humans were created in God's image with the additional caveat of the privilege of being able to feel bodily pain. We don't presently feel as if "feeling physical pain" is a privilege, but it is part of the hidden plan about which God has placed "obscurity in their heart" (our hearts).
As we go through this life suffering the consequences of pain via the central nervous system, it is indeed a humbling experience, The less pain people experience in life the greater their disposition to arrogance becomes. Most rich people suffer far less from pain than the extremely poor simply because they have the means to avoid many painstaking day to day activities that involve hard work.
I hope this makes sense to you, it is the best comfort I have for "evil days" in my life yet to come, and indeed for all of us. I think it answers Reba's question about "Why".
Quote from: reFORMer on August 02, 2012, 02:36:00 PM
I haven't found the verse yet, but the second half, the meaning of which I am more certain exists, says something like, "...that thou canst not find out His ways." Perhaps the first part, which I am less certain is the reason for the second part, says something like, "For verily He is a God that hideth Himself..." There just seem to be no matches in blueletterbible.
It is Ecc 3:11 & Deut 29:29.
Paul, that is a fascinating premise--the "privilege" of pain, but I hate pain. I hate it so much I will medicate myself not to feel it. What does that say about us? Sometimes this life is too much to bear, and I can only choke out a groan in my prayer. When I am done swinging at God, He is still the One with the power and the answer. My only option is surrender. Perhaps that's the point.
When I ask God what is this life for, I seem to get this answer: We must all go through this process of death (here on earth in these bodies of humiliation) to be brought into life (resurrection/newness of life), and my job here/now is to help those who are on the same road as I am on (all people), to help each other that we might bear up under it.
Those who endure/overcome are simply those who can face our tragic experience and still believe He has us in the palm of His hand and trust Him. Like Job... though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Blessed are those who do not see, and yet believe.
But then again, what do I know? :)
Isaiah 48:10 See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
"tested"
H977
בּחר
bâchar
baw-khar'
A primitive root; properly to try, that is, (by implication) select: - acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.
He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, Mal 3:3
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom 12:1
Refining Gold
The final stage of gold production -- refining -- involves removing impurities that remain after the smelting process. Refining companies receive doré bars, as well as scrap gold, and reliquefy the metal in a furnace. Workers add borax and soda ash to the molten metal, which separates the pure gold from other precious and less precious metals. A sample is then taken to a lab for tests, or assays, that measure the gold content. In most cases, the gold is 99.9 percent pure. Workers cast the gold produced during refining into bars.
What happens next depends on how the gold will be used. Pure gold is generally too soft for most practical applications, so other metals are nearly always added to it. When gold is combined in this way, it forms an alloy. Scientists and goldsmiths often use colors to designate the various gold alloys that are possible. For example, white gold is made by combining gold with nickel, silver or palladium. Red or pink gold is an alloy of gold and copper. And blue gold is the result of mixing gold with iron.
--Refining Gold
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
--Dan 3:25
[alright I'm crying now]
Quote from: Deena on August 04, 2012, 09:55:58 PM
Good questions, Jab. I have often thought it is a wonder that we knoww anything. From personal experience, up till a couple years ago, I was rooted and acted in some beliefs that I thought were true. I fiercely guarded myself from "wrong doctrine" and would only read what fit in with those narrow views. On top of that, bouts of terrible self doubt and depression clouded anything positive about God. How did God get through to me? I was too desperate to say no. When He showed me the real gospel, I had no walls left that I cared protecting. The "mess" of it all (as you call it) is frustrating. God is the only one with the power, but how do we move His hands? Prayer? Sometimes even that feels futile, for He will do as He wills. What keeps me grounded is knowing His ultimate plan for us is good, to give us a future and hope, that all will be answered at Christ's appearing when we shall know as we are also known. What a glorious day that will be. Till then abide in faith, hope and love. Jesus come quickly!
Hey Deena, I know everyone here understood what you meant, but to not sound overbearing, should we not be more careful in how we use the word "narrow" for they could use that against us in their court "of Law" as you proving their point that they are on the narrow path. :laughing7: :laughing7: (My mistake, thought I was quoting Molly).
Quote from: Deena on August 06, 2012, 02:45:54 AM
Paul, that is a fascinating premise--the "privilege" of pain, but I hate pain. I hate it so much I will medicate myself not to feel it. What does that say about us?
Deena, you're getting it, you're already way ahead of Reba who over public airwaves asked the ancient perplexing question: "Why ?"
Really drink in the meaning and portent of Ecc 3:11. God is clearly stating he never intended for mankind to comprehend to purpose of our laborious & painful labours while on this Earth. But God does talk about the "heart", in this verse, and to a few people the spirit of Christ has opened a few select hearts within Christ's Body, but we must have a humbled spirit & demeanor to comprehend its' deepest meaning or we never see this "privilege" called "pain", and we certainly would never see the benefits it holds for the future of all of mankind.
You have been doing just as I have been doing, boldy (screaming) going to God demanding he gives us answers. He wants boldness when appearing before him, he says so in Heb 4:16, look up that Greek word for "boldly", it means "all-out-spokeness, to be blunt", wow Deena, you can't get anymore blunt than to "scream", good job, he's listening probably better than you know. There have been times I've told God "I hate you" for the pain you created us to suffer with, but I usually get over it within a few minutes or at least a few hours.
In 99.9% of our infirmities, God does not take away pain via the central nervous system, because it is crucial to his secretive plan for the redemption of the entire Universe. Almost all cancers will remain, God will not rescind the painful inflictions of the book of Revelation & all the pain he will place those people under, they will learn valuable lessons from it that Satan can never learn. Pain teaches humans
compassion, something Satan & his minions are incapable of feeling, this is the reason those now human will rule over all the celestial hosts presently in the heavens throughout the universe.
I, like you, scream at God everyday about picking up the pace & putting an end to the humiliating aspects of having a central nervous system that God has inflicted humankind with. But as smart as I'd like to think I am with a better plan in which all our pain should end just as soon as we ask God to do it, is when it dawns on me God created all these bodies on planet Earth just for the express purpose of feeling pain, even the most intense pain, including all the torture chambers the worst human despots can devise right down to the most despicable child molesters who take an innocent child's life. When God put humans on this planet he knew these things would happen, maybe not necessarily all specific instances, but certainly many.
I'm an environmental engineer, my job is to make peoples lives
comfortable, what a job that can be, the demands placed on me to assist people in avoiding what God has ordained,
pain. This has been a good topic Deena, keep screaming with me at God with all boldness, and if the real truth be known I'll just bet you a lot more than two of us have been plenty mad at God about a lot of things. The screaming boldness of our prayers will not be wasted, God wants to hear from his Sons & Daughters, he's willing to take it anyway we give to him because he likes their attention, just fathers & mothers love the attention of their children even when they're screaming mad at us so also our Father in heaven, he's a big guy Deena, he can handle all the screaming we direct at him, never be embarrassed about it.
Paul, you have encouraged me today. Maybe we don't have all the answers, but at least I'm not the only one in "crazy town"! (that's a joke, by the way...) I often wonder if anyone else thinks these things.
Isn't it ironic that the smartest man to ever live says that God's ways are hidden from full view. Even the wisest cannot figure Him out. It makes me laugh. God does have a funny side.
Do you know what else is hilarious Deena? We totally knew what we were coming here for. But we are now under a veil of forgetfulness and so we have no idea that we knew beforehand what we were coming to do. Hahahahaha when God showed me that I cracked up so hard. (He's also shown others, it's not just me making it up. :smile:) I have come to accept pain as a necessary thing, we need it to become purified, it's the only way. And knowing that it is completely temporary and doesn't compare to what awaits us makes it that much easier to go through. (Not saying it's easy, but knowing that makes it easier. :smile:) I always picture the end, no more pain, everyone full of God, full of love, all of our loved ones back together. It's going to be awesome! :dsunny:
Just think about having a baby. The process SUCKS to put it lightly LOL but most women go through it at least twice because of the joy of having those babies! The pain is generally forgotten, and it's really such a short amount of time out of our life. Think about this life in comparison to eternity, right? It'll be a distant memory and once we see the life that pain brings forth we will say that we would do it all over again. :)
Btw I screamed at God once when I saw something on the news about a little girl who had been brutalized by two men. I mean BRUTALIZED. I won't go into detail but I was MAD. I screamed at Him, how could you let them do that to a little girl??? Where were you?? I tried to imagine His angels there with her but I just couldn't imagine them standing by and letting them get away with that. Then I "saw" her sitting at the feet of Jesus and it was like everything that happened here didn't even matter, she was so full of joy and peace. I mean she was just so joyful, just enraptured in her Saviours love. I never forgot that.
Quote from: lomarah on August 06, 2012, 09:43:21 AM
We totally knew what we were coming here for. But we are now under a veil of forgetfulness and so we have no idea that we knew beforehand what we were coming to do. Hahahahaha when God showed me that I cracked up so hard. (He's also shown others, it's not just me making it up.
Would you expand on this a little more. Pre-destination?
I don't really know how to explain it... just that He showed me via the Spirit that we knew beforehand what we were coming here for. I'm going to give you a link to a post that Cardinal made a while back that I found so beautiful and brought me to tears that tells of a vision that God also gave to her about this. Hope this helps. :)
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/misogyny-in-the-old-testament/msg10880/#msg10880
Blessings
Interesting post from Card. I went ahead and read a few more posts in that thread, and came across the following from Kratos (John) a beloved member and compadre of mine who passed on about 3 years ago;
"I still believe that our problems with what God did to people in the OT and still does today is only judged as cruel or unfeeling or harsh in terms of the carnal mind. If you continue to see this life of 70 years as the important thing and a thing to be preserved, you cannot but help come to that conclusion.
There is a place that I can remember in the Bible (I think Job) that says something to the effect that we humans have it all wrong. We rejoice when a baby is born and we weep when a person dies. But, if we truly understood the way of things, we would weep when a baby is born into this life of pain and sorrow and we would rejoice when a person is finally released back to the real life realm. (sorry for the paraphrase, but I cannot remember enough words to find it).
Anyway, the truth remains that God, from His perspective, thinks little of relieving a person from the bondage of their earthly existence to aid in the passing into the Heavenly existence for us all. This is why it was not unjust for God to allow what appears to be cruel ends to some from this life to teach us spiritual truths. It is because our lives here and all of those who lived in the OT are a mere vapor in terms of our whole existence. That which is seen (our natural lives) are temporary and our unseen lives (in the spirit) are eternal. Unless we see it from this perspective, we are seeing it all wrong. The carnal mind will never be subject to the law of God because it only looks at things through the seen world of our earthly existence. This is wrong and upside down from the truth."
(I read a few more posts down and picked up this...)
Agape Love
The little group stopped along the highway and looked in silent horror, some queasy with disgust, others growing fierce with rage. A short distance off the road, at the top of a gentle rise, a man had been viciously attacked. The grizzly scene glinted red with blood where the hapless victim had been mortally wounded and left to die. It appeared there was nothing more to be done, as already a small crowd had assembled at the site, presumably to administer first aid.
The travelers stood entranced, caught in the despair of senseless waste. This is the work of Satan, the businessman finally thought aloud.
No, this evil comes from wicked men, the housewife responded, her eyes transfixed on the scene.
You don't know that, interjected her girlfriend excitedly. This could be the work of God. It could be that the victim was wicked and this was God's righteous judgment.
Another stepped in to calm them, But then again if God caused this, maybe he meant it for some higher purpose, unknown to us. He might even somehow use this terrible act for his glory! he offered hopefully.
Are you crazy? retorted the preacher. We worship a God of love! Our God would never allow this! he stormed, eyes flaring with anger.
The little group buzzed with concurrence, then slowly turned back to the road and resumed their journey, affirming their denunciation of the crime as they continued on their way. All of them oblivious to the Roman soldiers who were gambling for a cloak.
******************
Love is the most misunderstood word in existence. To many it means little more than a physical craving. To others it is an intense emotional dependency.
To some people love is a character trait of God, which is manifest in peace, success, and happiness. It is that special blessing of God that meets their needs and fulfills their wants. Because God loves them, he gives them all the good things of earth to enjoy. To them, anyone who is smiling, or lounging in earthly wealth, is obviously centered in the love of God. For these people, God's love creates a fondness for the things of earth and a coddling affection for all its creatures, in a soupy, mind-numbing bliss.
But to a few of earth's voyagers, love is something entirely different, something not of this world. It is a wisdom that energizes every action in the universe, whether it appears as good or evil.
If you had stopped along the road and witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus, would you have recognized it as the supreme love of God? How is the love of God displayed in his slanderous betrayal and murder? Would this be the love of God if it happened to you? (Russell)
Just goes to show, His ways are not our ways. Sometimes all we can do is trust.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
--Prov 3:5,6
The things that are seen are temporary,
the things that are not seen are eternal.
Many are looking for signs, yet Christ said a wicked generation seeks a sign.
We are indeed in a temporary phase as we approach the next age,
What excites ne is that we are told of a more glorious state of being than what the Jews saw as Moses would come down from the mount.
We are indeed being changed from glory to glory.
Christ did not try to convert every one so why do we?
As far as the east is from the west so are our sins in His sight, so why do we look at them?
Sorry, just rambling.
One of those interesting questions that does not seem to pop up too much;
What happens to the people who died before Christ was resurrected?
I never even used to think about that when I used to atend church.
IMO this is the reason why the last shall be first and the first last.
The first being before the resurrection of Christ and the last being after that resurrection.
Christ used to say that He did not want the Jews to know too much because then He would have to heal them, and that would impede His sacrifice and make it unnecessary.
All this is the sort of thing Paul seemed to be trying to convey. He always seemed to be trying to encourage people to look to a brighter future.
C.U
Lots of good stuff in that thread for sure! I was actually up reading for quite a while last night, old threads, there are some real gems on these boards to glean from, that's for sure! One of my new faves is Experiencing the Tabernacle that Nathan started, great stuff in there!
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/
Good stuff here. Thank you all very much.
Psalm 51:10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. Eph 2:10
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Ephesians 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Ahh ....what a beautiful morning with the cool mountain breezes gently flowing through my open windows. Summertime passes all too quickly it seems, often-time causing my thoughts to return to memories of things past, giving God thankfulness for the present, and above all hope for the future.
Quote from: lomarah on August 06, 2012, 12:35:02 PM
I don't really know how to explain it... just that He showed me via the Spirit that we knew beforehand what we were coming here for. I'm going to give you a link to a post that Cardinal made a while back that I found so beautiful and brought me to tears that tells of a vision that God also gave to her about this. Hope this helps. :)
I read the link you made to Card. Of course pleasant dreams are a great source of comfort in our daily lives. The source of dreams are derived as a product of our day to day activities so far as anyone can evaluate from a human psychology standpoint where our environment is the most influencing factor. Our most deep rooted experiences are the most common basis of dreaming activity in the brain. Dreaming is associated with the information processing methodology of the brain which i turn forges the basis for memory recall of our awakened hours of the day. If the dreaming process is diminished by any form of sleep apnea (usually drugs), the memory recall process can be impaired. But basically it is often our opinions about current events which form much of the basis of our dreams.
It would appear to me that Card has had strong pre-dream opinions about something to do with "pre-mortalism", this formed the basis for the dream of which he so eloquently wrote. We dream about things that are deep rooted beliefs, which however are not predictive of the future or reminisces of the past. Of those orbs of light if they are indeed true, I queried in my mind a debate three of them were having as to which of them would become Stalin, Hitler, or Mao-Tse Tung, the three greatest mass murderers of human history. Do you see the problem I'm having here?
I realize in Ecc 12:7-8 that all humans have a spirit that returns to God upon death. That means that spirit had to be in existence before our birth (or maybe conception) or God could not have given it in the first place. However, scripture gives us no clue as to the state of consciousness of that spirit prior to our appearance on Earth.
We know from Job 38:7 that there were Sons of God who were in existence in heaven at the time the world was created. We also know that the members of the Body of Christ are called "sons & daughters " 2 Cor 6:18 and in other places, the debate is are these all the same people at different points in time. Couple this with Paul's teachings of the pre-destination of the Body of Christ and a lot of things seem plausible. I guess we'll just have to wait only a short while longer to get the answer.
Well you'll only have to wait a short while longer. :)
If God tells me something I know it's true. :)
Blessings!
Btw God very clearly uses dreams in the Bible to speak to us and said that in the last days He would give these dreams to many. I can see where if you've never had one of those experiences it would be easy to say that Cardinal just dreamed what was already in her head. However Cardinal is quite familiar with dreams from God and knows how to recognize His voice extremely clearly. Couple this with the fact that she DIDN'T have preconceived notions about all of that and it's obvious Who it was from. (Well it's obvious to me lol...)
Hearing this stuff for the first time was wild for me too but I've since experienced a lot of what Card has spoken about on the forum. The Word is living and active and God is moving among His people. :)
Wow, very cool revelations guys, I love it!
I think that our Father gave us His best (Jesus)! And that He freely gives knowledge, widsom and understanding to His Kids.
So if I have a question, I ask Him and He never fails to tell me, and he puts it in a way that I can understand it for now. Later, I may want to go deeper and i'll ask again, and He'll show me more truth. Like peeling away an onion. Or going from the second grade to the third grade. I have to understand THIS before I can get to THAT. And I think we are all in different "grades" so to speak in different subjects on truth.
all you guy's posts, this is some graduate level stuff! Love it :)
Quote from: Ross on August 06, 2012, 05:51:06 PM
The things that are seen are temporary,
the things that are not seen are eternal.
As far as the east is from the west so are our sins in His sight, so why do we look at them?
This spoke to me today. Thanks. I'll add this from Casting Crowns;
Jesus, can You show me just how far the east is from the west
'cause I can't bear to see the man I've been come rising up in me again
In the arms of Your mercy I find rest
'cause You know just how far the east is from the west
From one scarred hand to the other
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=how%20far%20the%20east%20is%20from%20the%20west%20lyrics&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CE8QtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCy4ytwKfjBI&ei=ATEgULjJEeWciQLb2oHYDA&usg=AFQjCNGBX_W9InE8O6tMwLx3JPo4xdv5ig
(I can't view streaming videos sometimes on this particular computer, plz let me know if the video's not OK)
Yes for sure se7en, precept upon precept right? :) (This is also why a good solid foundational knowledge of the OT comes in VERY handy!) :thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 01:30:51 AM
I read the link you made to Card. Of course pleasant dreams are a great source of comfort in our daily lives. The source of dreams are derived as a product of our day to day activities so far as anyone can evaluate from a human psychology standpoint where our environment is the most influencing factor. Our most deep rooted experiences are the most common basis of dreaming activity in the brain. Dreaming is associated with the information processing methodology of the brain which i turn forges the basis for memory recall of our awakened hours of the day. If the dreaming process is diminished by any form of sleep apnea (usually drugs), the memory recall process can be impaired. But basically it is often our opinions about current events which form much of the basis of our dreams.
If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?
Quote from: jugghead on August 07, 2012, 09:59:51 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 01:30:51 AM
If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?
I made no intimation concerning "faith" & "dreams". I was simply passing along the present state of science with regard to why all humans (many animals too) sleep in a dream state, that it is the normal manner by which we function as normal healthy adults. The "science" of the dream state of sleep is quite clear that the primary functions of the dream state is that it is a necessary information processing mechanism which if interrupted leads to problems with memory recall.
I fail to see what the association is to "faith" that you made. It is clear in scripture that God uses the dream state to reveal things to specific people concerning prophetic events, but that is not the norm. Most dreams have no intended function for the revealing of prophecy in the "latter days", however the dream state can be a useful vehicle by which that can occur, but I'll state it again, is not the norm.
I'm real careful about the usefulness of the passing scenes of my dream states. I am not a prophet nor a teacher of scripture, I simply read scripture & believe it while doing my best to interpret it from the original languages in which it was written.
Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: jugghead on August 07, 2012, 09:59:51 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 01:30:51 AM
If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?
I made no intimation concerning "faith" & "dreams". I was simply passing along the present state of science with regard to why all humans (many animals too) sleep in a dream state, that it is the normal manner by which we function as normal healthy adults. The "science" of the dream state of sleep is quite clear that the primary functions of the dream state is that it is a necessary information processing mechanism which if interrupted leads to problems with memory recall.
I fail to see what the association is to "faith" that you made. It is clear in scripture that God uses the dream state to reveal things to specific people concerning prophetic events, but that is not the norm. Most dreams have no intended function for the revealing of prophecy in the "latter days", however the dream state can be a useful vehicle by which that can occur, but I'll state it again, is not the norm.
I'm real careful about the usefulness of the passing scenes of my dream states. I am not a prophet nor a teacher of scripture, I simply read scripture & believe it while doing my best to interpret it from the original languages in which it was written.
I am sorry if I was not clear, my only point was that it is a starting point, meaning that the wisdom of men can only take us so far in understanding, going beyond the bounderies of what they know can open up a whole new understanding in how God can work in anyone's life.
It was just a question, not an accusation. Maybe I should reword it and say, Our walk with God cannot advance if we confine our faith within the psycology of men. But that also can be taken the wrong way, because it can be taken as I am telling you something that you do not know. If you take the replies to your posts as accusations by another, that is something we all are affected by.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 07, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?
My point being that the "norm" for the dream state is that the "normal function of dreaming" is that as an information processing mechanism that configures our brain cells for memory recall, dream science has verified this. I have clearly stated that God does speak in dreams, but to specific people for specific purposes, eg; Nebuchadnezzar, the 3 Magi, a few others. In my entire life, I can think of only half a dozen instances where I had a dream that was useful for
instruction, and then only had very limited useful benefit for that.
When I was taking math courses in college, I had many a night I would dream about calculus equations streaming all around my head, but I could never get a clear enough picture of the dream state organization of those equations to find the dreams useful for
instruction. Maybe not so with others.....so be it.
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 11:37:40 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 07, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?
My point being that the "norm" for the dream state is that the "normal function of dreaming" is that as an information processing mechanism that configures our brain cells for memory recall, dream science has verified this. I have clearly stated that God does speak in dreams, but to specific people for specific purposes, eg; Nebuchadnezzar, the 3 Magi, a few others. In my entire life, I can think of only half a dozen instances where I had a dream that was useful for instruction, and then only had very limited useful benefit for that.
When I was taking math courses in college, I had many a night I would dream about calculus equations streaming all around my head, but I could never get a clear enough picture of the dream state organization of those equations to find the dreams useful for instruction. Maybe not so with others.....so be it.
Did you ever think that it was God telling you the state of the world, that of confusion, not being able to understand. No, this was not me saying you are in a state of confusion, but that God was showing you the state of the world's way of thinking.
Quote from: jugghead on August 07, 2012, 11:26:40 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: jugghead on August 07, 2012, 09:59:51 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 01:30:51 AM
If our faith is confined within the bounderies of the psychology of men, how can our walk with God advamce?
I made no intimation concerning "faith" & "dreams". I was simply passing along the present state of science with regard to why all humans (many animals too) sleep in a dream state, that it is the normal manner by which we function as normal healthy adults. The "science" of the dream state of sleep is quite clear that the primary functions of the dream state is that it is a necessary information processing mechanism which if interrupted leads to problems with memory recall.
I fail to see what the association is to "faith" that you made. It is clear in scripture that God uses the dream state to reveal things to specific people concerning prophetic events, but that is not the norm. Most dreams have no intended function for the revealing of prophecy in the "latter days", however the dream state can be a useful vehicle by which that can occur, but I'll state it again, is not the norm.
I'm real careful about the usefulness of the passing scenes of my dream states. I am not a prophet nor a teacher of scripture, I simply read scripture & believe it while doing my best to interpret it from the original languages in which it was written.
Maybe I should reword it and say, Our walk with God cannot advance if we confine our faith within the psycology of men.
An absolutely correct statement on your part, thanks for clarifying what you meant...Paul
Quote from: jugghead on August 07, 2012, 11:45:47 AM
Quote from: Paul L on August 07, 2012, 11:37:40 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 07, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
Hey Paul, God not speaking in dreams is not the norm according to whom?
My point being that the "norm" for the dream state is that the "normal function of dreaming" is that as an information processing mechanism that configures our brain cells for memory recall, dream science has verified this. I have clearly stated that God does speak in dreams, but to specific people for specific purposes, eg; Nebuchadnezzar, the 3 Magi, a few others. In my entire life, I can think of only half a dozen instances where I had a dream that was useful for instruction, and then only had very limited useful benefit for that.
When I was taking math courses in college, I had many a night I would dream about calculus equations streaming all around my head, but I could never get a clear enough picture of the dream state organization of those equations to find the dreams useful for instruction. Maybe not so with others.....so be it.
Did you ever think that it was God telling you the state of the world, that of confusion, not being able to understand. No, this was not me saying you are in a state of confusion, but that God was showing you the state of the world's way of thinking.
Nope, have never thought about it like that. Oftentimes dreams are already perplexing enough that it seems hopeless to attach meaning to them, "confusion" or otherwise.
Paul I'm not an anti-science guy by any means. But there is one thing I know for a fact. "We" as in the modern scientific world, know maybe .1 % of the way the brain and nervous system work. In fact the theory of nerve conduction is insufficient to explain the speed at which some signals travel. Thats the basic anatomy and physiology, which you can cut and slice and hook electrodes to. Consciousness, dreams dream states etc, we understand at a far smaller percentage.
Medical research (and most scientific research) is highly fraudulent. The former chief editor of New England Journal of Medicine which is the most prestigious of medical journals said (in my own paraphrase) "you can't trust medical research at all, the fraud, the financial ties have corrupted it"
I'm not saying all research is bogus, its just I don't put much weight into a lot of it, maybe the line of research you're speaking of is good too. Just a caution, since we (humanity) are so prone to appealing to authority, give us a king so we can be like the nations. Whether that king is a politician, a doctor, a scientist, a priest, or the talking heads (that one saddens me the most), "they" are all part of babylon, which is confusion.
And that brings me back around nicely to what jugghead said about dreams and confusion. In the movie the matrix the people in the matrix thought they were in the real world, they were confused, the wool had been pulled down over their eyes, kind of like a veil. When we dream we may be going to the state of transfer between the real world (Spirit) and the matrix (natural world). God spoke to people in dreams throughout the entire Bible. It wasn't just a few, in fact I believe its the most common way He spoke to people thats recorded (I could be wrong on this). The other way was visions. What is the difference between a dream and a vision? They're pretty similar but one you start from sleeping, and one from awake??? I know the visions I've had were similar to dreams, not the minor ones but the ones where I'm fully aware of whats going on and can think in them.
I'm not claiming anything as fact here. Just thinking out loud. Maybe dreams are doing much more than you think. I can tell you I have memories of things that happened in a vision/dream while I was sleeping that I don't remember having the dream in the first place. Sometimes I wake up and say "I know Kung Fu", but instead of kung fu its principles of the kingdom.
Blessings brother
very interesting post, RHM.
QuoteWhat is the difference between a dream and a vision? They're pretty similar but one you start from sleeping, and one from awake???
I so agree with this , and know that it can the the Lord , either protecting you or purposing you or warning you
they say we are only 5% brain conscience and the other 95% is subconscience activity
this may be why ''thoughts '' cause such peace or torment and definatley ''confusion '' at times when they become ''scattered ''
I love Job 33 , its helped me consider the Lord often as to what His desire for us is and to put our own thoughts and desires more towards Him
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed , its a great chapter
and think many times , it gives answers
for example Peter was ''confused '' about the Law and going back to an old pattern of thinking
when he recieved his visions , He was told to call no man uncommon or unclean
freeing him of thoughts to respecter of persons
I have been lurking for a long while , ever since the crash of this site
I was wondering where you were Rosie! Glad to see you :HeartThrob:
The harvesting angel has returned!
Rosie comes out from lurking in the shadows!! :dsunny:
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 07, 2012, 11:15:15 PM
Paul I'm not an anti-science guy by any means. But there is one thing I know for a fact. "We" as in the modern scientific world, know maybe .1 % of the way the brain and nervous system work.
....... dreams dream states etc, we understand at a far smaller percentage.
....... When we dream we may be going to the state of transfer between the real world (Spirit) and the matrix (natural world).
I'm not claiming anything as fact here. Just thinking out loud. Maybe dreams are doing much more than you think.
There is not one word of which you've written here that I disagree with, my only point initially being of an overly weighted emphasis whole groups of people place on the meaning of dreams. Dream interpretation has become a fashionable almost cult-like endeavor.
What "dream science" has been doing is to discover it's mental health benefits, but without a doubt it can be a bridge to the spirit world, the Bible gives many examples of it, but still you fail to understand the point I'm making, that a "bridge to the spirit world" is not the primary function of "dreaming", it's only a tiny fractional byproduct of God's intended purpose for the human state of sleep. Healthy sleeping habits are vital to a well balanced physical & mental state during the waking hours, if you have terror dreams those will affect the mental state of your waking hours, pleasant dreams of wandering through gentle fields of flowing grasslands will have the opposite effect.
Very few people have ever been chosen by God to be a prophet or apostle, or some other similarly placed position through whom God has given us his written word. When the Bible was fully complete, revelatiing communication via the spirit world was complete. To think we humans can add to God's now completed written word is a pointless endeavor, yet many people in the latter days are looking for "signs" that Christ has admonished them not to look for, Matt 12:38-39 comes to mind.
A lot of "latter day" false prophets have had their rise to prominence which started in the swoons of their dreams, so this issue about the relevancy of dreams emanating from the spirit world cuts both ways & those in the Body of Christ would serve themselves well to be extra-ordinarily discerning of the sources they think are giving them new knowledge never previously revealed in the bible, the source may not be what one might think.
On the other hand we certainly wouldn't want to attribute a work of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
"When the Bible was complete revelating communication via the spirit world was complete." NO! On the contrary, again - in the last days God has poured out His Spirit. He said that MANY would prophesy, dream dreams and have visions. (Please don't take my capitalization as shouting lol I'm on my cell and it's hard to underline on here.)
And for the record, the sheep know His voice. No worries as to Who Card's revelations come from. :)
testimony
God gave me dreams specifically for a couple(never met them before and never met them again).The women bumped into my wife at a store, my wife took her home to pray,My wife phoned me told me what she was doing...I relayed the dream to my wife.The lady broke down and said it was an answer to prayer.I on the same day run into her husband at a hockey game and relay the dream once again,he was on the brink and needed the word
So does God use dreams today...yup
blessings
Awesome onlytruth!! God is so wonderful. :)
Quote from: onlytruth on August 08, 2012, 09:40:41 AM
So does God use dreams today...yup
blessings
And I agree with you that he does....but not for the purpose of
adding to the already completed writ of scripture, and that is the only point I've been making but which every commentator thus far keeps missing. There is in this age no "new truth" since the last scribe of holy writ completed his work by the end of the 1st century AD. No "new Biblical truth" from God through his Christ is today being revealed through anybody's dreams, numerous ones claim it and is
part of the reason we have all the denominations that have created this "mess".
You are right Paul, there is no "new truth". However there are mysteries that have been kept hidden and which God only shows to those who are ready and seeking. Look at the book of Revelation for the most obvious example lol. I don't know about you but I don't have a sweet clue what most of it means.
Not to come down clearly one way or another on anything specific that's been shared as truth or not, but just to say, Paul is hitting on the heart of the OP. So many denominations, so many people saying "I'm hearing this or that from the Lord so it's the absolute truth". I do believe God speaks to us and leads us, but I also believe the human mind is susceptible to imagination, misinterpretation, and confusion. Ever look online at all the folks calling themselves apostles, sons of God, disciples, pastors, bishops, etc.? How many different opinions about the kingdom of God do you think they share? Just one, in unity? Not even close. Hundreds might get it.
I'm personally very careful with a lot of personal claims and interpretations. Though I believe some are inspirational and very much worth going to the scriptures and before the Lord with (I know some don't agree) but I want to see at least a pretty clear hint in scripture that there's scriptural soundness and scriptural possibility to a claim of revelation. Anybody can say anything in the name of God - and many do. Which brings us back to, IMO, "searching the scriptures daily to see if those things are true", looking to the Lord for guidance and understanding, and always keeping our eyes on Him as our steady Rock and Deliverer. :2c:
Quote from: lomarah on August 08, 2012, 10:34:58 AM
You are right Paul, there is no "new truth". However there are mysteries that have been kepr hidden and which Gos only shows to those who are ready and seeking. Look at the book of Revelation for the most obvious example lol. I don't know about you but I don't have a sweet clue what most of it means.
Absolutely & right on the money.
For some very good reason, God in his infinite wisdom has not revealed to everybody the same measure of "truth" regarding the contents of His written word. Different denominations appear to have a different measure (quantity) of "truth" than another. I think God has done this as a safeguard against teachings of some that there is "one true church", you know how that can go, and the different denominations function as a checks & balances to one another.
QuoteNo "new Biblical truth" from God through his Christ is today being revealed through anybody's dreams, numerous ones claim it and is part of the reason we have all the denominations that have created this "mess".
Love never fails and its hard to fool your own self when you are doing all things in love /charity and fully giving of need towards others needs in that pure heart , I do agree many deceive thier own hearts when the motive is not done for the Love of God and
in His Holy Spirit .. Paul said it well here what fails , but when done in Gods Spirit it shall never fail anyone , the giver and receiver Jesus was the best example of Truth setting many free or binding them to the Truth by the Holy Spirit of truth
1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth
faith, hope, charity, these three; but the
greatest of these is charity.
You know all power is from God , even the devil cannot move with Gods permission ...
the things we see as a mess are to prove the point ''only God is in control '' Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth
as touching any thing that they shall ask,
it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. QuoteNot to come down clearly one way or another on anything specific that's been shared as truth or not, but just to say, Paul is hitting on the heart of the OP. So many denominations, so many people saying "I'm hearing this or that from the Lord so it's the absolute truth". I do believe God speaks to us and leads us, but I also believe the human mind is susceptible to imagination, misinterpretation, and confusion. Ever look online at all the folks calling themselves apostles, sons of God, disciples, pastors, bishops, etc.? How many different opinions about the kingdom of God do you think they share? Just one, in unity? Not even close. Hundreds might get it.
I'm personally very careful with a lot personal claims and interpretations. I know some don't agree, but I want to see at least a pretty clear hint in scripture that there's scriptural soundness and scriptural possibility to a claim of revelation. Anybody can say anything in the name of God - and many do. Which brings us back to, IMO, searching the scriptures daily to see if those be true, looking to the Lord for guidance and understanding, and always keeping our eyes on Him as our steady Rock and Deliverer.
Lots of times Bro J , If one says , "I'm hearing this or that from the Lord so it's the absolute truth". if it fails it was not done in the right Spirit , we cannot put our trust in man
but if it does not fail we can know our faith will increase by the power of God , I believe the wise would have a fear of the Lord not to take it on himself to speak as God or for God falsley , so many examples in the Word for those who disobeyed
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver;
I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake,
will I do [it]: for how should [my name] be polluted?
and I will not give my glory unto another. who deserves the Glory but God Himself ,and shared this glory before the world was with His Son Jesus Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
I have backed off greatly in much talk because of mine own hyprocrisy and loved what you shared about Kratos words we should rejoice as Christians knowing the glorfied Body will never suffer from the natural elements as the human condition does
its hard to be in the right Spirit all the time , being flesh and blood as well
I read a story years ago and it stuck with me for all these years , about a lady who said during her near death experience that , she became so depreesed having to come back to her motal body and described it as coming into some'' filthy stiff work clothes '' but knew her time was not yet and her purpose in God was not complete yet
and all these things still give me hope that the Cross of Jesus Christ and in that power of Love hold the key to Life from the dead for all who believe in Him , all will confess as Paul states in the Day of the Lord
Phil 2 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Thanks for the welcome back friends :)
Amen rosie. :dsunny:
I injected something that instantly caused a change in my sensory experience. This gave enough credence to a fear of death that I asked a friend of mine to drive me to where I thought a doctor I knew would be. This left me at Presbyterion church prayer meeting where we found her and about 30 other people, mostly students, that had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. While they were all praying for me in tongues nothing much seemed to happen. Dr. Judy laid her hand on my arm and said I should just talk to Jesus and tell Him what my problem was. This made sense to me. So I told the Lord, even though I knew He had to be right about it, I liked sin anyway. Would He please get me to where I could repent. As some time passed, people drifted away and I was no longer noticed, I just slipped out the back door to enjoy my interrupted trip.
About 10 days later, rejected by all my friends during this time, I was in an apartment paid for by Dr. Judy's loan. I had no job and no money. I had only some oatmeal and water. A guy had stolen my shoes and left me with a pair of boots that were a size and a half too small for me. I couldn't just go for a walk to relieve the terrible boredom I was experiencing. I had used drugs and lived up to no standard of morality for several years, other than to not get in trouble. I wasn't really a criminal, just lost and wandering, without goals, a hedonist that had no place to belong.
I started walking up and down there, telling myself I was supposed to be a smart guy, I should figure out what was wrong. Why was I in this dead end, this loneliness, poverty, and misery in general? I began to realize what I had thought of as life's banquet had become more like addiction and what started out as beautiful had gradually become a life in the gutter, forcing me into increasingly worse sin. It was like walking into the large end of a cornucopia and finding it more and more constricted.
As I realized my sins were the problem I also knew I had kicked Jesus out of my life. Considering His followers as boring, I didn't even know anybody who believed in Him. I began to sob, grieving that I could be so wrong toward Jesus, wondering aloud at such a wicked sin, "How will I ever be forgiven!?" Then I saw Jesus on the cross. His head was turned away from me. I immediately knew this meant I was forgiven. I thank Him and asked Him to come into my life. I remember where I was in the room, the late sun on the wall just in front of me when He came in. It was a couple of months before I realized I had seen a vision.
I went on the next day to seek God for more and was filled with the Holy Spirit. I was radically changed. Within a couple weeks I had a dream on a Sunday or Monday night. The next day I thought it seemed interesting. The following morning I realized there was spiritual symbolism in the dream. Toward the end of the week, knowing it to be a dream from God, I was so consumed with the need to understand what it meant that on friday I began a fast.
A lady friend came by that evening and asked me to go along with her and another sister to a church meeting. When we were on our way home the other passenger asked us in to share a snack with her. She was in her 90's. She'd been a missionary to the American Indians. When we went to pray over the coffee, cookies, and the best poppy seed cake I've ever had, I mentioned I'd had a dream that I wanted to know the meaning of. While I was speaking Sister Kittleson lifted her hands, saying, "Oh my! Oh my!" She not only had a vision of the deam, she told me what the dream meant.
Acts 216-21...
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signsin the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: [21] And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 John 4;1-3 " Beloved! Believe you not in every spirit, but test whether the spirits are of God;
because MANY false prophets have gone out into the world.
Hereby do you perceive the Spirit of God:
every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as having come "In the flesh" is of God;
and every spirit that does NOT confess Jesus is not of God."
Rosie you have a tendency to make me cry lol! Love you sis. :HeartThrob: (This darn flesh and blood, eh???)
reFORMer, thank you so much for sharing that! God is amazing!!
Thanks Rosie:
What a Mess(age) of grace - love - mercy, and above all, What a God-glorifying message.
I pray that we all continue to "...grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to Him be all glory, both now and forever. Amen (2 Pet 3:18)
Quote from: Paul L on August 08, 2012, 10:17:37 AM
Quote from: onlytruth on August 08, 2012, 09:40:41 AM
So does God use dreams today...yup
blessings
And I agree with you that he does....but not for the purpose of adding to the already completed writ of scripture, and that is the only point I've been making but which every commentator thus far keeps missing. There is in this age no "new truth" since the last scribe of holy writ completed his work by the end of the 1st century AD. No "new Biblical truth" from God through his Christ is today being revealed through anybody's dreams, numerous ones claim it and is part of the reason we have all the denominations that have created this "mess".
I agree totally that it is not an "adding on" but I will say that God will use dreams to give us a better understanding of His word.
Quote from: jabcat on August 08, 2012, 10:47:47 AM
Not to come down clearly one way or another on anything specific that's been shared as truth or not, but just to say, Paul is hitting on the heart of the OP. So many denominations, so many people saying "I'm hearing this or that from the Lord so it's the absolute truth". I do believe God speaks to us and leads us, but I also believe the human mind is susceptible to imagination, misinterpretation, and confusion. Ever look online at all the folks calling themselves apostles, sons of God, disciples, pastors, bishops, etc.? How many different opinions about the kingdom of God do you think they share? Just one, in unity? Not even close. Hundreds might get it.
I'm personally very careful with a lot of personal claims and interpretations. Though I believe some are inspirational and very much worth going to the scriptures and before the Lord with (I know some don't agree) but I want to see at least a pretty clear hint in scripture that there's scriptural soundness and scriptural possibility to a claim of revelation. Anybody can say anything in the name of God - and many do. Which brings us back to, IMO, "searching the scriptures daily to see if those things are true", looking to the Lord for guidance and understanding, and always keeping our eyes on Him as our steady Rock and Deliverer. :2c:
Totally agree, what I consider to be truth is anything that makes me a more loving, forgiving and compassionate person, if anything steers me to not become these things, I see it as a false teaching.
Quote from: goodreport on August 08, 2012, 11:11:52 PM
Thanks Rosie:
What a Mess(age) of grace - love - mercy, and above all, What a God-glorifying message.
I pray that we all continue to "...grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to Him be all glory, both now and forever. Amen (2 Pet 3:18)
great prayer sista !! If God permit :Pray: :iagree:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hbr 6:3
And this will we do, if God permit.
raising children and educating and disciplining them is a 'messy" affair! lol!
AND A HEARTY AMEN TO THAT SHEILA!!! :iagree:
I extent words of pitty to your parents Lo!
:-)
Look how often things we examine in the scripture are introduced with sayings like John's, "And I saw," or Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's, "The word of the LORD came unto me saying." Nothing in the Bible says these have ceased. "The path of the just shines brighter and brighter into the perfect day." As we approach our inheritance, to be "like Him and see Him as He is," we should expect them to increase. They are an earnest, a promissory token that the inheritance as children of God is surely going to come. These are normal experiences.
Dreams and visions, other experiences we sometimes call miracles, these just come with being a child of God, unless you've accepted lies about your true nature and God's true nature. He's not blind and deaf, neither should we be. These come with, "The hearing of faith." When we're born a human into the world we come with certain senses. When we're born again into God we begin to have senses like Him. For instance, "His eye is in every place, to behold the good and the evil." His Spirit in us causes us to see things that He sees in another time or place. He not only makes us see, He gives us visions and other prophetic experiences. Born of God we have extended or spiritual senses. This is also surely the repeated testimony of men of God, not only in the Bible, but throughout history.
Paul says (in 2 Corinthians 121 CLT) "If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord." He then goes on to speak of being possessed by God so as to be in the third heaven, as well as God seizing him and taking him into Paradise. These experiences he indicates could have happened to him in an unclothed spirit form outside of his body or that he might have been in his body, he didn't know.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 30, 2012, 09:00:57 AM
Look how often things we examine in the scripture are introduced with sayings like John's, "And I saw," or Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's, "The word of the LORD came unto me saying." Nothing in the Bible says these have ceased.
True, but it's sometimes hard to figure out what's trustworthy and what's not. NDEs are visions too. Do you believe the ones that teach eternal torture.
All (I think) OT visions point to Jesus. He came; so there is no need for visions anymore?
While I don't think that's true I can understand why visions aren't trusted much (anymore).
First of all the often contradict eachother. They often contradict a manmade doctrine. And ofcourse the pope who claims to be the sitting on the throne of Jesus until he returns. When Jesus was on earth there was no need for visions."One could go directly to the source. A when we have a pope we have direct link with God. So that's how I think the trust in visions gradually faded.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2012, 05:20:42 AM
I extent words of pitty to your parents Lo!
:-)
Hahaha and I extend words of sympathy to yours. :P
reFORMer: Good post and amen!
Quote from: reFORMer on August 30, 2012, 09:00:57 AM
Look how often things we examine in the scripture are introduced with sayings like John's, "And I saw," or Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's, "The word of the LORD came unto me saying." Nothing in the Bible says these have ceased. "The path of the just shines brighter and brighter into the perfect day." As we approach our inheritance, to be "like Him and see Him as He is," we should expect them to increase. They are an earnest, a promissory token that the inheritance as children of God is surely going to come. These are normal experiences.
Dreams and visions, other experiences we sometimes call miracles, these just come with being a child of God, unless you've accepted lies about your true nature and God's true nature. He's not blind and deaf, neither should we be. These come with, "The hearing of faith." When we're born a human into the world we come with certain senses. When we're born again into God we begin to have senses like Him. For instance, "His eye is in every place, to behold the good and the evil." His Spirit in us causes us to see things that He sees in another time or place. He not only makes us see, He gives us visions and other prophetic experiences. Born of God we have extended or spiritual senses. This is also surely the repeated testimony of men of God, not only on the Bible, but throughout history.
Paul says (in 2 Corinthians 121 CLT) "If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord." He then goes on to speak of being possessed by God so as to be in the third heaven, as well as God seizing him and taking him into Paradise. These experiences he indicates could have happened to him in an unclothed spirit form outside of his body or that he might have been in his body, he didn't know.
Kind of like when Israel went straight to Succoth after they left Egypt. Succoth is of course booths. It was a vision into the holy of holies. I believe this is what I experienced when I came to UR. The vision I experienced was a fast forward for a moment in time. But we are being transfigured from glory to glory, as the cloud moves through the wilderness. Tabernacles is the full inheritance, which is the HOH.
When you look at the various denominations, most of them in their genesis started off as 'reformers'. Many with a new revelation. A new truth. Luther..."the just shall live by faith". Methodists on the way we obey God. They felt righteous in their beliefs and that God had called them on. That they were more right than the status quo....and that is the danger. Our carnal man rises up and justifies and rationalizes our lofty station and we let arrogance and leaven into the loaf. They all pitched their tents. Built their walls and stood on their 'one' truth. But a journey is more than just one step. They stagnated.
Almighty God...I beseech you...always lead me onwards into the promised land and don't let my bones lie bleached at the borders of Kadesh Barnea because I would go no further. :Pray:
1 Cor 14;26 what then shall we say brothers? when you come togather everyone has a hymn or a word of instruction a revelation a tongue or interpretation.
ALL OF THESE MUST BE DONE FOR THE STRENGTHENING OF THE CHURCH...
REALIZING THAT ANY 'GIFTING' HE GIVES TO AN INDIVIDUAL IS TO BE SHARED WITH ALL...AND IS NOT INTE3NDED TO ELEVATE THE
THE ONE THE SPIRIT COME THROUGH...BUT TO ELEVATE TH3E WHOLE BODY........CONSIDERING ANY FOOD NOT YOUR OWN BUT FOR ALL
AND FREELY SHARING AS THE LOVE FEAST IT IS MEANT TO BE....
jUDE 12 WE MUST NOT BE SHEPHERDS THAT FEED ONLY OURSELVES...OR SEDUCE WIDOWS HOUSES[WHICH CAN MEAN TO TRY AND TAKE A WIFE OR
OR THE INTENDED BRIDE OF cHRIST FOR OURSELF[START A CHURCH FOR OURSELF] pEOPLE BELONG TO jESUS AND fATHER...
NOT ANY MAN..WE SHOULD NOT COVET ANY MAN'S WIFE!!!!!..INSTEAD WE CAN ENCOURAGE HER AND BUILD HER UP IN HER FAITH IN HIM
THE FALLING AWAY AND THE LAWLESS ONE REVEALED IS WHAT HAS RESULTED IN THE DIVIDING UP OF THE BODY OF cHRIST..THE
SCATTERING OF HER INTO ALL THE SECTS..DIVISIONS ETC.. THE LAWLESS ONES IS THE SPIRIT OF SELFISHNESS AND PRIDE AND COVETOUSNESS
AND SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT HAS DEVASTED THE LITTLE ONES THAT BELEIVE IN HIM.
YOU BELONG TO GOD AND JESUS...I BELEIVE THE LORD IS NOT CONCERNED SO MUCH ABOUT THE LITERAL FEAST BUT THE SPIRITUAL FEAST
AND SHARING OF SPIRITUAL FOOD FOR THE EDIFYING OF HIS BRIDE..HE CHERISHES AND FEEDS HERE...ALL OF HER
QuoteGary A. has stated that this is an age of the mixture of truth and error.
babylon= babel = confusion by mixing.
to know this is to overcome.
God bless.
YES..AND ONLY FOLLOWING THE hOLY SPIRIT CAN LEAD YOU INTO ALL TRUTH. fOR HE DOES NOT SPEAK OF HIS OWN
WE ARE SANCTIFIED AND MADE HOLY BY TRUTH....THE OVERCOMERS HAVE NO 'LIE' IN THEIR MOUTH...
THE WEDDING SUPPER OF THE lAMB ARE THE TRUE WORDS OF GOD
TRUTH IN THE INWARD PARTS IS PURITY/VIRGINITY..FREE OF SPIRITUAL FORNICATION
THAT WE SHOULD KNOW THE FATHER/TRUTH IS ETERNAL LIFE.........THE FATHER OF THE LIE IS SATAN...the FATHER OF TRUTH IS GOD
What a mess the doctrine of hell(eternal torment).
There is only one HOLY SPIRIT!
How can a man say that he doing the will of the HS.
When out of the same mouth flows words of eternal torment.
I am not judging him my spirit is .
My spirit has been awakened and has been intimate with the HS.
The Holy Spirit knows nothing about eternal torment nor has
the thought ever entered Gods mind.
It started in Brittan and was brought over to the new world.
If you believe in hell you DO NOT have the spirit of God.
Since the invention of the printing press 99% of all printed
material has been controlled by this satanic doctoral.
Praise God we have the spirit of truth.
No matter how romantic or wonderfully traditional your former church is
The spirit of God can not find fellowship there.
Sometimes the simplicity of truth is a marvel.
You can not Love Jesus if he has saved you from Eternal Torment
Quote from: jabcat on August 02, 2012, 07:43:30 AM
I've often thought of all the different denominations, opinions, disparate views, teachings, Bible translations, etc. IMO, there obviously is a lot of error, none of us 100% in error, none of us 100% knowing all truth. We all have our own personalities, emotional and mental capabilities and liabilities that come into play. I believe there definitely are outright deceivers, charlatans just seeking power, glory, money ("Lord, Lord, didn't we...?). Also, I believe there are well-meaning people that don't have a spiritual basis from which to share, so just share through logic and the natural mind. And lastly, I believe there are those who are spiritually reborn through saving faith in Yashua Messiah, some having vast amounts of truth and sharing some great things for consideration and edification. Yet we all look through a glass darkly, none of us has every single bit of truth, and have our points of inadequacy - even the capacity to be fooled ourselves and lead others astray, albeit unknowingly and unintentionally.
There are thousands of denominations and hundreds of Bible translations. They/we obviously can't all be right. The scriptures mean what they mean, no prophecy (a divinely inspired utterance or revelation) is for private interpretation. When God spoke/speaks, I don't believe He is vague or unsure or doesn't know what He means. Yet humanity, including Christendom, is scattered all over the place. And I've thought, "WHAT A MESS!"
Gary A. has stated that this is an age of the mixture of truth and error. How I agree. And it's puzzled me quite a bit. I believe God works all things according to the counsel of His will. So what's His will? If He wanted everything 100% perfectly clear at this moment, He could "snap His fingers" and make it so - instantly. So as it appears to my limited view at times, why do we have "all the mess"?
Maybe it's not a mess after all, because He's working it all to fulfill His plan!
Given that I don't believe we can always understand God's ways, still, today it came to me that perhaps the reason is, that in our human experience full of such confusion and uncertainty, we are "forced" to look to HIM and trust in HIM? That even when all else fails, people you counted on let you down, disappoint you, even come against you - HE is there? There with an "easy yoke", ready to comfort, ready to speak and calm the seas? Could it be that everything else around is made to be so frail and unpredictable, that of necessity, our focus is continually being brought back to Him, THE ROCK, and for us to remember to hide in the cleft of the Rock?
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, You are with me. Your rod and your staff comfort me. I will dwell in the House of the Lord ["your presence"] forever." Amen.
"Be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world".
Although momentarily Missing Member, jabcat's posts are available to read, meditate, etc., ... I decided to bring this one back to the forum for your edification, encouragement, enlightenment ... I will be bringing back other Missing Members' posts as I read them again... maybe one a day :) Be blessed
Just yesterday on my way home from work I was chatting with our Sovereign Daddy.
I told Him, how amazing you are, that much has been revealed, yet so much is still misunderstood. I've known from a young age full knowledge and understanding of His plan won't come until the full unscaling of our eyes, yet we all seek it stumbling around trying to connect dots using our philosophies, our understanding, our translations etc.
I praised Him, that He knew what he was doing when He had each of us in mind for specific purposes & that while I think I may know what mines may be, I'm not sure. However, I know your plan is for good, your greatness, righteous judgement & unfailing love far beyond human comprehension & I trust it while heartedly! You are the potter & I am the clay, direct my footsteps & use me for your purpose.
I keep in mind the battle has been won, I try to remember everything in this crazy world is part if His plan, so my prayer & wishes have changed. Instead of trying to battle to connect dots of things I'm not sure of, trying to change the minds of people who "don't see it my way", I just say pray for His wisdom in His due time & worship Him because He is so awesome that "His ways are beyond finding out".
Lovely rrich !! and of same sentiments :HeartThrob: Praise God !!
:thumbsup: