Tentmaker Forum

Just sharing my views on the law - which often we are told we are not under, but I disagree.

I agree that our covenant for eternal life is not based upon the law
I agree that our righteousness is not determined by the law
I agree that we cannot possibly actually follow the letter of the law, as it requires priests,  and such
I agree that we have been released from any responsiblity to judge others according to the law.
I agree that the law was written in such a way that it took the whole nation in order to follow it effectively

We are often told in the NT to flee from immorality, right? Well, where is the definition of what God considers immorality? Shall we make up our own or Is it not in the law? Such as:

Leviticus 20:15  And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16  And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Now it is not within our power to follow through with the punishments for these immoralities, first off because the laws are set up in such a way that a whole country has to adopt these laws in order for any punishments according to the law to be carried out, lest we break the laws of the land, thus breaking the law to keep the law, but we do learn from the law that to have intercourse with an animal is immorality, and can therefore keep ourselves from commiting immorality in ignorance. (I am stretching it a bit here to make a point)

Reading through the laws that govern immorality, general courtesy and such, I can find no flaws. Lets look at this one:

Leviticus 19:33  And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

I see nothing wrong with Leviticus 19:33 - basically the law defined proper ways of dealing with people
Now, Jesus told us that Love fulfills the law - it is the motivation behind the law.

Or how about this one:

Leviticus 19:17  Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18  Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


Now there are many, many laws - and those in Christ know that they can fulfill the law through love, and so a detailed knowledge of the law is not required - just act in love and you will be in accordance to the law in most cases. But it is not through love that you can discern all immorality is it (maybe you really love your animal)? All scripture is profitable for instruction - including the law.

I think that a very confusing message is being thrown at christians today - they are told they are not under the law - say again? We are under very many laws, starting with city laws, county laws, state laws, federal laws, and yes, biblical laws. And there are punishments for breaking them.

Point blank - if your habit is to have intercourse with animals, God will judge you for it, this judgement could be anything from hardships in this life that you do not even associate with any divine judgement, to possibly just hardening your heart so that you live in darkness during your stay in the flesh, but yes, we do reap what we sow, and yes, the biblical laws do provide a very good explantion of things we should not do. So yes, we are under many, many laws - - -though our covenant for eternal life isn't based upon them.


This is how I see it anyway, anybody see it different?

 :cloud9: While we're not under the law in the same way the Israelites were under it, read Deut. 28 and see if those things are not being manifested with those who are not walking in covenant with God, today. I explained in the sovereignty post what the Lord gave me concerning how the two covenants are going on, side by side. What we are not under is the letter of it, IF we are walking in the Spirit.

The reason why most of these things are not discerned nor appropriated, is because most of those we were under during our season in the church world, THEMSELVES did not discern or appropriate it, so they could not take out of treasure they didn't possess and give it to anyone else. Truly it was the blind leading the blind, and we knew it not. Ask most Christians what it means (in a demonstrable way), to walk in the Spirit, and most have no idea, except to tell you it means they're not under the law.

It is possible to be set free of the law of sin and death, in a very literal spiritual experience, just as dramatically real as the initial salvation experience. This book is supposed to be experienced spiritually, not just read. The Spirit of it opens the seals of the Word that is written in our hearts already.

I hadn't been saved too many months, when one day while reading the Word, the Lord spoke something to me. He said, "You're not really learning this, you're remembering it." When we read, and something is quickened to us, what is really happening is, the Spirit is bringing all things to our remembrance. If you are learning something, you never knew it to begin with. But because of the Spirit, we have an unction and know all things. We know all things, because we were one with Him from the foundation of the world.

When He was lowered into this bondage of corruption (us), a spirit of forgetfulness (like sleep/Adam was put to sleep but never awakened) had to accompany us, else we would already know all things, by virtue of Him Who is our breath. The carnal mind's job is to divide us from the Spirit that is God, which is why we die, to be carnally minded is death.  Thus, we are only divided from Him in our mind's. Death and sleep are interchangable words in the Word. The maid is not dead, she merely sleepeth!

When this partition completely falls, we will know Him as we are known of Him. And so, the scripture, we don't know what He will look like when He appears, but we know that when He appears, we'll be like Him. We don't know, because we've forgotten, like a man who looks in a mirror, and then straight away forgets what manner of man he is. Behold, I show unto you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (awakened). Blessings to all....

Liked that part about the Spirit of it opens the seals of the Word that is written in our hearts already and remembrance.

I think that the fact the most do not know what it means to walk in the Spirit really confuses the matter, as those walking in the Spirit seek to please God in Spirit, serving him in spirit, putting aside all condemnation that comes to the flesh from the law, (pleasing God often means doing nothing), these naturally adhere to the spirit of the law. How God loves it when our spirits desire to be closer to him, In my opinion, this is very pleasing to God. I very often can feel my own spirit inside my chest burning with desire for God. I have also noticed something else as well - - if I harshly judge someone on a matter, sometimes, maybe even a couple of days later, my spirit will be reminded of one of my transgressions that all guilt had been forgotten long ago, and burn within me with guilt - convicting me - for although my sin was forgiven and I recognize that fact, nonetheless when a spirit burns with guilt, it burns, and the mind cannot in all its reasoning stop the burning, all one can then do is plead for mercy, judgement is merciless for those whom show no mercy, I've learned to even fear harshly judging or condemning someone, risking that awful burning within which doesn't go away till I've "paid every last cent".

 :cloud9: Amen to all you've said here A.... :thumbsup: And I have felt the fire burning within my chest at other times as well. You can literally feel it if He desires to let you. It's a fire that does not hurt, but just as real, amen? We serve a LIVING God. Blessings to you....

As I am given to see this, though we are set free from the law of sin and death through the person of Jesus Christ alone does not mean we are no longer subjected in letter by this world, and just as grace is sufficient for us in all things does not mean we are lawless, the letter is death only the spirit gives life.

Card, I am wih you in saying amen here, we can not stop the burning, we can niether speed it up nor slow it down, it is all in Gods good time. We all have the burning bush within us!

Peace,
Fire Walker

The law was erased 2,000 years ago, so we are free!!!  Our relationship with God is not dependent on our actions.  God sees us as perfect, because He sees Jesus when He sees us.  Any perception that our actions affect how God looks at us is self-righteousness and is what Paul called "falling from grace".

Therefore, any "fleeing from unrighteousness" can only be understood from the point of view of doing that which is beneficial for us.  Paul's pleas for righteous behavior in his epistles is not to make us right with God, but doing what is beneficial for ourselves and others.  Beneficial actions may or may not be found in the Old Testament, but I certainly wouldn't look there.  It would be too tempting to fall back into self-righteousness, at least for me, to see all the curses and judgment that follow disobedience.  It would kill the Spirit, which is the absense of law and curses.

My suggestion is to follow your heart.  You have the heart of Christ, and the kingdom of God is within, so look there.  He won't steer you wrong.

Giz

Amen, Gizmo, Amen!!!! :happygrin:

Martin Zender speaking to a Jew states "the Mosaic law (and the evangel of the Circumcision) was given only to your nation and its proselytes. It was not given to anyone removed from the sphere of Judaism. Paul says in Romans 2:14 that the nations (understood in this context to mean non-Israelites) "have no law." You are trying to include everyone under a set of decrees that was given exclusively to members of your race. As the law never came to non-Israelites, it certainly cannot continue with them. I am not claiming that the law is totally done away for you and those of your race who embrace the evangel of the Circumcision. What I am claiming is that the law does not even exist for those among the nations to whom it never came.

The Mosaic law is not the foundation of God's dealing with humanity as a whole. The law was a limited, local and national demonstration for one nation (Israel) and one land (from Dan to Beersheba) and one religion (Judaism). It was not designed for all men in every land and every nation. For these, God had a completely different program in mind, with a completely different good news ("gospel," or "evangel") to go with it."

I've thought about this from time to time after reading it awhile back.  If this is accurate interpretation, then this might be where Paul's teachings to us (Gentiles) comes in, as I understand it to say, that we please Father out of our relationship with Him, as He empowers and leads us to Him...i.e., the "law written on our hearts", not THE law to be legally observed.

Quote from: jabcat on January 16, 2008, 09:42:55 AM
I've thought about this from time to time after reading it awhile back.  If this is accurate interpretation, then this might be where Paul's teachings to us (Gentiles) comes in, as I understand it to say, that we please Father out of our relationship with Him, as He empowers and leads us to Him...i.e., the "law written on our hearts", not THE law to be legally observed.

Amen to this.  I still believe that the 10 aka Royal Law is still applicable to Christians today.  The Law is a guide and like a solid white line that shows us not to overtake (for our own good) we can ignore it and suffer the consequence; a head-on collision or a hefty fine.

Why would one do as I used in the example is you are living the Law of Love?  Patience is a fruit of Love.

Blessings

Just want to add - I'm not trying to get a new levitical priesthood set up here. :laughing7: Just mentioning that in certain ways our flesh is under the law, and without this understanding, a very confusing message is thrown out from the pulpits. Truly this was said: 1 John 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Now before we get upset here, lets look at the spirit of that scripture - that is - that he was talking to the babes in Christ, warning them, when one comes and says he is a mature man in Christ, and he wants to be your teacher, but his deeds are evil and wicked, then don't be deceived, he is a wolf. Many times the wolves try to apply the strictest standard of scripture to those whom are little children, when much of scripture is speaking of those whom are mature and what the babes may expect of the mature.

Basically, though our focus should not be on laws, as we grow closer to God, we find, to our delight, that our actions have become something that may be seen even by unbelievers as being good. This change is not accomplished by our wills, but rather because our focus is on God, to do the things that please God. Just thought is was interesting. Of course I do understand that many have had the law "beat into them" from the pulpits and suffered abuses and that this is a sore subject.


quote jabcat

QuoteAs the law never came to non-Israelites

I do understand that the law came to Israel, that we cannot actually keep the levitical law because it is set up in such a way that it must be the law of the land in order to be kept, and also because it was ordained for Israel, however in a sense it has come to us, as most of us have a written copy of it sitting in our house and all scripture is profitable.

Quote Gizmo

QuoteThe law was erased 2,000 years ago, so we are free!!!  Our relationship with God is not dependent on our actions.

To be more accurate Gizmo, the law was not erased, simply open the first couple of books of your bible and you will see it is still there - I believe what you mean is that the law is no longer our basis for our relationship with God, nor the basis for eternal life - I did address this in the opening post of this thread.
Quote arcticmonster2003

QuoteI agree that our covenant for eternal life is not based upon the law
I agree that our righteousness is not determined by the law
I agree that we cannot possibly actually follow the letter of the law, as it requires priests,  and such
I agree that we have been released from any responsiblity to judge others according to the law.
I agree that the law was written in such a way that it took the whole nation in order to follow it effectively

Quote from: jabcat on January 16, 2008, 09:42:55 AM

The Mosaic law is not the foundation of God's dealing with humanity as a whole. The law was a limited, local and national demonstration for one nation (Israel) and one land (from Dan to Beersheba) and one religion (Judaism). It was not designed for all men in every land and every nation. For these, God had a completely different program in mind, with a completely different good news ("gospel," or "evangel") to go with it."

:cloud9: It is not the NATURAL foundation as in one outwardly observed now, but it IS the Spiritual one, which is why if you were born again, you celebrated and fulfilled a OT feast (Passover), and if you were baptized into His Spirit you celebrated and fulfilled another OT feast (Pentecost), and why Jesus speaking what the SPIRIT would have Him to speak, said I come not to destroy the law but to fulfill it. God never did away with the OT, He just knew it was impossible to fulfill the law, independent of the Spirit, ie. the Spirit comes to perform the Word. Doing away with the OT covenant is like doing away with the natural body of Jesus, and then expecting the Spirit of God to raise Him up anyway. It won't happen, He won't give His glory to another image, and the Word (He was THAT Word made flesh) is that image.

This is why it was said that all they (the natural Jews) went through was for our example.  The 2 covenants run side by side. I touched on this principle in the Sovereignty of God thread in the General Debates section sticky, in one of the last 3 pages of that 30 page thread. Blessings to you........

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 16, 2008, 12:02:19 PM

Basically, though our focus should not be on laws, as we grow closer to God, we find, to our delight, that our actions have become something that may be seen even by unbelievers as being good.

That really is a lot what I'm saying as well, that it is a supernatural by-product of loving and being filled with Father.  And yes, I also believe many have been really confused and bruised by misunderstanding and misappropriation of law, i.e., losing sight of grace due to self-righteous works-based efforts to "measure up" and "earn" a ticket to heaven.  Grew up in it, been there, done it.

Quote from: Cardinal on January 16, 2008, 05:32:44 PM
it was ordained for Israel, however in a sense it has come to us, as most of us have a written copy of it sitting in our house and all scripture is profitable.

Was thinking about this earlier today, in that all scripture certainly is profitable, including the law.  However, we may benefit from seeing the law as a guideline and certainly  profitable in regards to a bit of how God views things, but again, a personal relationship with the Christ fulfills the legal aspects of the law for believers?

What do you think?

 :cloud9: Hi Jabcat; I'm not sure how that happened, but the quote attributed to me in your post above, was actually in a post by Arcticmonster. Blessings to you.....

Quote from: Cardinal on January 17, 2008, 06:33:21 AM
:cloud9: Hi Jabcat; I'm not sure how that happened, but the quote attributed to me in your post above, was actually in a post by Arcticmonster. Blessings to you.....

Well, you know what, don't be surprised.  Sorry about that, but you should've seen me trying to get the quote thing to work right...guess I didn't :pitiful:

Jabcat

In the Forum Help board (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=91.0) is a step by step instruction of how it works.  Click and read

Blessings

quote jabcat

QuoteWas thinking about this earlier today, in that all scripture certainly is profitable, including the law.  However, we may benefit from seeing the law as a guideline and certainly  profitable in regards to a bit of how God views things, but again, a personal relationship with the Christ fulfills the legal aspects of the law for believers?

What do you think?

That depends on which law you are talking about, I doubt the local judge (and this authority is established by God and does not hold the sword for no reason) is going to buy that one if you murder someone, you'll definetly get sent to prison or even to death. If you think you awnser to no law or that all legal aspects are fulfilled, then there is no need of repentance, and if you don't repent, good luck on breaking through the flaming sword that turns in every direction guarding the Tree of Life. LOL. Actually rather than life and peace you would probably find yourself breaking out in cold sweats day and night (while in prison) and find agony in your guilty conscience, this of course would be a part of your punishment. I think it is easier to accept that the flesh is under some laws, and repent when your conscience is convicted, and then continue on in the path of spirit, life and peace and rest, putting aside all condemnation.

These things are hard for us to understand and divide properly, but  our personal relationship with Jesus fulfills all things pertaining to our spiritual life, both presently and for eternity. The laws are for the flesh - and we do not serve God with our flesh. Our life is in the spirit. Pertaining to the flesh, all we can do is repent and ask for mercy --- repent - for breaking Gods laws -- and mercy -- for breaking Gods laws. But our relationship with God is spiritual, and we don't attempt to please God with "following laws", but please God in spirit, through faith in Jesus, whom he sent, faith for our every need, and in the hope of future glory. The thing I was mentioning earlier is that when we are focused on pleasing God through our spirit, we find that we love more, and due to this we end up fulfilling the spirit of the law. There is some black and some white and a lot of gray area in understanding these things. Thus when we find those whom have had much revelation (such as Paul), even personal revelation from Christ - we find that they are not going to be evil, terrible, revilers, loud, obnoxious, crude, vile, theives, violent, deceitful, liars - not because they make a constant mental effort not to be like this, but because their focus is on the spirit and on life, they see the world as it plainly is, they understand the spiritual wickedness that surrounds us, they understand that our "reality" of life are chains that bind us hand and foot and God knows what else they might understand.
So I guess the bottom line is we should seek to please God in spirit - through our faith, first and foremost by believing in Jesus Christ whom he sent and also for all things pertaining to life and always have hope for the glory that will bestowed upon us at the revelation of Jesus Christ. If these things of the spirit do not consume our lives, then we can pray that they will. And if we find ourselves with a guilty conscience, simply repent, knowing God is faithful to forgive. And if it is yet possible put all aside but spirit and life that we have with the Father through Jesus Christ, put aside all condemnation and heaviness that is in the flesh.

I guess that if someone reads this entire thread and everyone's comments they would be a more knowlegeable on the matter, as it is hard to understand and divide correctly.

 :cloud9: Good post, AC :thumbsup:.......

Quote from: Gizmo on January 05, 2008, 10:18:26 PM
The law was erased 2,000 years ago, so we are free!!!  Our relationship with God is not dependent on our actions.  God sees us as perfect, because He sees Jesus when He sees us.  Any perception that our actions affect how God looks at us is self-righteousness and is what Paul called "falling from grace".

Therefore, any "fleeing from unrighteousness" can only be understood from the point of view of doing that which is beneficial for us.  Paul's pleas for righteous behavior in his epistles is not to make us right with God, but doing what is beneficial for ourselves and others.  Beneficial actions may or may not be found in the Old Testament, but I certainly wouldn't look there.  It would be too tempting to fall back into self-righteousness, at least for me, to see all the curses and judgment that follow disobedience.  It would kill the Spirit, which is the absense of law and curses.

My suggestion is to follow your heart.  You have the heart of Christ, and the kingdom of God is within, so look there.  He won't steer you wrong.

Giz

Hallelujah, amen and amen, Gizmo!!!

Col 2:15 - "ABOLISHING the law of commandments in ordinances so that in Himself He created of the two one new man, making peace."

All mankind is holy and righteous in Christ...He made peace for us all.  If only Christians understood the gospel!!!

Giz

quote Gizmo

QuoteCol 2:15 - "ABOLISHING the law of commandments in ordinances so that in Himself He created of the two one new man, making peace."

All mankind is holy and righteous in Christ...He made peace for us all.  If only Christians understood the gospel!!!

Giz

I'm pretty sure I do not understand what you are saying yet completely, as the sword is still brandished on earth today for our flesh when it breaks laws. Perhaps if you shall divide correctly the meaning of these scriptures then I can come to a better understanding of where you are coming from, and why you think the law does not pertain to us in any way, judgements included, for if there is no law then why are there so many laws, and why would most here consider themselves "law abiding citizens". The purpose of this post was to make a distinction between our relationship with God, which is not dependant on laws, and the law that our flesh is still under, this post was not meant to be a means of knowledge to improve our righteousness before God, but rather knowledge to understand the confusing message coming from the pulpits - - now as far as I can tell Gizmo, you see no difference on either side as you consider that the laws were abolished for not just our relationship with God, but abolished completely from our fleshly lives even if our deed are wicked, this I have not understood yet, please explain these scriptures listed below if you are able, if not, I understand, as these things are hard, but please be sure not to make the distinction between the law and our inheritance as this distinction has already been made and all agree that the law is not pertaining to our inheritance and any more writing on this particular point will just confuse the issue, of course if you do not wish to discuss this confusing message that is coming from the pulpits and simply don't want to talk about things that do not pertain to our inheritance (as they are sometimes distracting), then I do understand this as well and certainly have no problem with this.  (my questions in italics, and please note that these questions only apply because I have tried to correctly divide the word, spritual instruction from fleshly instruction, and it keeps getting met with the argument that the law is completely abolished from existence).

Matthew 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
?

Matthew 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
?

Romans 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
again, why do they keep using the word law, if it is erased?

Romans 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
how can we establish something that doesn't exist anymore?

Romans 6:15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
we are not under the law and yet it says not to sin, please explain

Romans 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
why all of this talking about the law to people (Romans) whom never received the law? Why talk about something that no longer exists?

Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
please explain

Romans 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
again, why fulfill something that is abolished?

Well, there are many more like this, but if you can explain these ones, without agreeing that our flesh is still under some laws, then perhaps I shall have a better understanding of the issue.





Now I do believe the following verses are our goal, that is to walk in the Spirit, and by doing this the law shall not even apply to our flesh, that is while walking in the Spirit we are breaking no laws because there are no laws against the fruits of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Quote from: Gizmo on January 23, 2008, 03:20:41 AM
Col 2:15 - "ABOLISHING the law of commandments in ordinances so that in Himself He created of the two one new man, making peace."

All mankind is holy and righteous in Christ...He made peace for us all.  If only Christians understood the gospel!!!

Giz

You go brother!!! Colossians 2:13-14: "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us, and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Hallelujah!!!
:myahoo: :banana:

Gracefull,

Perhaps you might explain to us why we have prisons here on earth if we do not have any laws which we can break. This is really at the core of this discussion - - which I may say again - - that no person, me included has denied that the law is indeed dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance with God, relationship with God ect...but yet when someone offers a quick soundbyte such as "The law is dead :bgdance: :bgdance: :icon_king: :icon_queen:", it makes it seems as though they have not read my posts here at all, and it makes it seem as though I have not made a distinction between our covenant and the law, which I, by the way, have made the complete distinction -- come on guys, people break laws every day and are punished for it with prison sentences, or death sentences - - so when one of these soundbytes appear, it seems all my writing on this entire thread goes out the window and that person received quick praise and the whole purpose of this thread is killed.



We know the law is dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance, relationship with God, we know the debt was paid, we know that the just stand in faith - - these are all good things :bgdance: :bgdance: :Sparkletooth:  This thread was in no means started to dispute these issues.



Now would either Gizmo or Gracefull please address at least one or two of the seperate issues about the law that I was seeking to discuss? Otherwise, its just distracting to what I was attempting to discuss here.

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 23, 2008, 09:28:41 AM
Gracefull,

Perhaps you might explain to us why we have prisons here on earth if we do not have any laws which we can break. This is really at the core of this discussion - - which I may say again - - that no person, me included has denied that the law is indeed dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance with God, relationship with God ect...but yet when someone offers a quick soundbyte such as "The law is dead :bgdance: :bgdance: :icon_king: :icon_queen:" it seems all my writing on this entire thread goes out the window and that person received quick praise and the whole purpose of this thread is killed.

We know the law is dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance, relationship with God, we know the debt was paid, we know that the just stand in faith - - these are all good things :bgdance: :bgdance: :Sparkletooth:  This thread was in no means started to dispute these issues.

Now would either Gizmo or Gracefull please address at least one or two of the seperate issues about the law that I was seeking to discuss? Otherwise, its just distracting to what I was attempting to discuss here.

Hi monsterman.  I'll admit I went the same route earlier, i.e., "The Law" instead of "the law(s)".  Then I backed out for awhile.  I'm glad to see you saying what you say about "The Law" and our salvation, etc.  So, addressing what I think you're wanting to discuss, I agree with you that there are laws of the land, and God expects us to follow them.  He has placed all authorities in their positions. I will share, and maybe this will help in the discussion, as someone raised in a very legalistic, fundamentalist, literalist situation, I have really mixed ALL laws up together, and often found myself obsessing, struggling, falling under bondage (at least in my own mind and actions) trying to attain some impossible sort of perfection/perfect behavior.  For instance, if I found myself accidentally going over the speed limit, I would become condemned and feel I had sinned and needed to ask forgiveness.  You may not be able to fathom this, depending on your own personal circumstance.  I do remember you stating in an earlier post though, that you seemed to have an awareness some may have been "beaten/abused" by "law".  Anyway, for me personally, I find I have to attempt to not be totally dogmatic as is my tendency, about either "The Law" or the "the law(s)".  So, full circle, yes, I believe it's obvious there are many laws, and also yes, we probably need to be real carefull to clarify them, what the differences are, what our obligations/consequences are, and to which ones, capital 'L' or small 'l'...Maybe you can get on with your points about the laws of the flesh as you have called them and we'll all learn together....God's blessing.

P.S., it occurs to me (a really hasty, not dwelled upon thought) that laws (some, all?) are for ours and others protection, not to bring us under bondage?  Maybe you can expand upon that...

quote jabcat

QuoteMaybe you can get on with your points about the laws of the flesh as you have called them and we'll all learn together

I actually made most of the points I intended, I was just getting a little irritated that some of the soundbytes were consuming the thread, and that the original purpose of the thread was, at a glance, being completely diminished.


quote jabcat

QuoteP.S., it occurs to me (a really hasty, not dwelled upon thought) that laws (some, all?) are for ours and others protection, not to bring us under bondage?  Maybe you can expand upon that...

Most of the laws are for our protection, and for the protection of people around us, I really can't expound too much on it as I would have to go into detail with each individual law.

quote jabcat

QuoteFor instance, if I found myself accidentally going over the speed limit, I would become condemned and feel I had sinned and needed to ask forgiveness.

Well, jabcat there probably has been some good points made on this thread, but I am starting to feel like the longer this thread goes on, the more probable I am going to write something that may bring self-condemnation onto someone. As I have never been under a "spiritual leader", perhaps I do not understand just how far these discussions may bring self-condemnation to some people (I am basing this on the above quote, as I did not know that it went this far for some people, and I am happy you overcame this). As I have posted this in an open discussion area, perhaps I didn't fully understand and consider that people whom currently may be struggling with these concepts, or struggled heavily with them in the past might be hindered or brought into a state of self-condemnation throught my ponderings.

Since I offered this earlier in one of my recent posts on this thread as an out, I believe I shall take the same out:
quote arcticmonster2003

Quoteof course if you do not wish to discuss this confusing message that is coming from the pulpits and simply don't want to talk about things that do not pertain to our inheritance (as they are sometimes distracting), then I do understand this as well and certainly have no problem with this.

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 23, 2008, 09:28:41 AM
Gracefull,

Perhaps you might explain to us why we have prisons here on earth if we do not have any laws which we can break. This is really at the core of this discussion - - which I may say again - - that no person, me included has denied that the law is indeed dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance with God, relationship with God ect...but yet when someone offers a quick soundbyte such as "The law is dead :bgdance: :bgdance: :icon_king: :icon_queen:", it makes it seems as though they have not read my posts here at all, and it makes it seem as though I have not made a distinction between our covenant and the law, which I, by the way, have made the complete distinction -- come on guys, people break laws every day and are punished for it with prison sentences, or death sentences - - so when one of these soundbytes appear, it seems all my writing on this entire thread goes out the window and that person received quick praise and the whole purpose of this thread is killed.



We know the law is dead pertaining to our salvation, inheritance, relationship with God, we know the debt was paid, we know that the just stand in faith - - these are all good things :bgdance: :bgdance: :Sparkletooth:  This thread was in no means started to dispute these issues.



Now would either Gizmo or Gracefull please address at least one or two of the seperate issues about the law that I was seeking to discuss? Otherwise, its just distracting to what I was attempting to discuss here.

Dear articmonster2003: I apologize. Of course, we have civil laws that result in punishment if violated. I'm really sorry if I unintentionally distracted from the point of your posts. My response pertained to "The Law" - not laws in general. Forgive me?  :bowing:

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on January 23, 2008, 12:03:40 PM
As I have never been under a "spiritual leader", perhaps I do not understand just how far these discussions may bring self-condemnation to some people (I am basing this on the above quote, as I did not know that it went this far for some people, and I am happy you overcame this). As I have posted this in an open discussion area, perhaps I didn't fully understand and consider that people whom currently may be struggling with these concepts, or struggled heavily with them in the past might be hindered or brought into a state of self-condemnation throught my ponderings.

Not a problem, we just sometimes don't understand each other, and that's why the continuing to communicate "in love, preferring one another" is so important...so we don't divide based on our perceived differences.  I'd like to post more to you later when I get to work, Father's giving me a thought or two on this I'd like to share that may be helpful...in the meantime, God's blessing.

Quote from: GraceFull on January 23, 2008, 03:43:08 PM

Dear articmonster2003: I apologize. Of course, we have civil laws that result in punishment if violated. I'm really sorry if I unintentionally distracted from the point of your posts. My response pertained to "The Law" - not laws in general. Forgive me?  :bowing:

Very nice Graceful, :friendstu:.

quote graceful

QuoteDear articmonster2003: I apologize. Of course, we have civil laws that result in punishment if violated. I'm really sorry if I unintentionally distracted from the point of your posts. My response pertained to "The Law" - not laws in general. Forgive me? 

Of course I forgive you, I also have unintentionally distracted from the point of others peoples threads at times, its really no big deal.

QuotePerhaps you might explain to us why we have prisons here on earth if we do not have any
laws which we can break.

I too was confused about the purpose of the thread.  My apologies.  Gracefull answered this pretty well.

Quoteyou see no difference on either side as you consider that the laws were abolished for not just our relationship with God, but abolished completely from our fleshly lives even if our deed are wicked

One source of confusion for the church is the term "fleshly".  Scripture uses it to describe our flesh and blood, Paul uses it to describe his Jewish kin, and his old nature that desires to be right with God by his actions.  It is important to clarify how you mean this and how people using the term are trying to use it.

I'm not trying to avoid your questions, but trying to get to the root of the problem.  If you still have questions, let me know.

Thanks,
Giz

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on December 30, 2007, 08:58:56 AM
Just sharing my views on the law - which often we are told we are not under, but I disagree.

I agree that our covenant for eternal life is not based upon the law
I agree that our righteousness is not determined by the law
I agree that we cannot possibly actually follow the letter of the law, as it requires priests,  and such
I agree that we have been released from any responsiblity to judge others according to the law.
I agree that the law was written in such a way that it took the whole nation in order to follow it effectively

We are often told in the NT to flee from immorality, right? Well, where is the definition of what God considers immorality? Shall we make up our own or Is it not in the law? Such as:

Leviticus 20:15  And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16  And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Now it is not within our power to follow through with the punishments for these immoralities, first off because the laws are set up in such a way that a whole country has to adopt these laws in order for any punishments according to the law to be carried out, lest we break the laws of the land, thus breaking the law to keep the law, but we do learn from the law that to have intercourse with an animal is immorality, and can therefore keep ourselves from commiting immorality in ignorance. (I am stretching it a bit here to make a point)

Reading through the laws that govern immorality, general courtesy and such, I can find no flaws. Lets look at this one:

Leviticus 19:33  And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

I see nothing wrong with Leviticus 19:33 - basically the law defined proper ways of dealing with people
Now, Jesus told us that Love fulfills the law - it is the motivation behind the law.

Or how about this one:

Leviticus 19:17  Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18  Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


Now there are many, many laws - and those in Christ know that they can fulfill the law through love, and so a detailed knowledge of the law is not required - just act in love and you will be in accordance to the law in most cases. But it is not through love that you can discern all immorality is it (maybe you really love your animal)? All scripture is profitable for instruction - including the law.

I think that a very confusing message is being thrown at christians today - they are told they are not under the law - say again? We are under very many laws, starting with city laws, county laws, state laws, federal laws, and yes, biblical laws. And there are punishments for breaking them.

Point blank - if your habit is to have intercourse with animals, God will judge you for it, this judgement could be anything from hardships in this life that you do not even associate with any divine judgement, to possibly just hardening your heart so that you live in darkness during your stay in the flesh, but yes, we do reap what we sow, and yes, the biblical laws do provide a very good explantion of things we should not do. So yes, we are under many, many laws - - -though our covenant for eternal life isn't based upon them.


This is how I see it anyway, anybody see it different?

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FREE TO LIVE—LAW AND GRACE


              Can you worship God while you eat bacon?  Not under the Old Testament law because the law of Moses says pigs are unclean (Deut. 14.8 ).  But most Christians keep some part of the law, if not about pork, then something else.  They are sometimes called "yardstick Christians."  To them hair has to be so long, the sleeve a certain length or the hemline on higher than a set place on the leg.  In one group a person cannot wear a bow, in another ties are outlawed altogether.  Some places it is all right to have pierced ears, others, it is not.  In one church a woman is out of place if she does not wear makeup, in another she is out of place if she does, In one church it is proper to wear a wedding ring, in another it is not.  Some places you should dress fashionably, and other places very plain.  Some congregations are even taught to question your salvation if you miss Sunday School.  This is not a complaint against churches or groups that teach or believe any of these things.  The purpose of this study is to identify them and put them in their proper place.      So, do not get up-tight if we mention something you strongly believe in.   Colossians and Ephesians were written to tell us that we should not go back to the law.  Judaizers (those who mix law and grace) want to put Christians back under Moses.  Circumcision was the main New Testament argument, but it could be many other things besides circumcision that they want you to do nowadays because they want you to conform to Moses and their standards.  We are presently under Jesus, and we are to pay attention to His words, not Moses`.  Moses` law will put us under condemnation and death.   (Matt. 16:17-18 –The Foundation –Revelation)

                   Now here is a catch tho, If you desire to leave the law—you are wrong, The law was given for your protection and you need it.  That is, you even need to keep the letter of the law Until the Holy Spirit leads you out of it.
                Sometimes when an immature Christian learns that there is freedom from the law of Moses through(Dia) Jesus Christ, they commits improper or immoral acts that he has been wanting to do but has refrained from because of the restrictions of the law.  We cannot use our freedom from the law when we are motivated by our fleshly desire.  "Unto the pure all things are pure; but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled"  (Titus 1:15).  "For brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another (Gal. 5:13). "But take heed lest by any means the liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak". (1 Cor 8:9).
                               LEAVE THE OLD LAW
                   God gave us another example of the fact that He wants us to leave the law of Moses and start paying attention to His grace and the love of Jesus Christ in Matthew 17.  We find that Jesus took Peter, James and John apart to a high mountain.  A voice from out of a cloud said, " This (Jesus) is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye HIM", not Moses (the law) or Elias ( Elijah the prophets).
       "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law (of Moses); ye are fallen from grace" ( Gal.. 5:4)
THIEVES AND ROBBERS
                   Jesus said, "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers (John 10:8)."
"All that ever came before me" includes the law of Moses and the prophecy of Elijah.  The law and the prophets did not lead the people to God.  Rather they were a type and a shadow (or a schoolmaster) to point people to Jesus Christ.  Because people believed they could get to God through (Moses) and prophets (Elijah) they were robber.  People ended up in condemnation and death.  Lets leave condemnation and death and enter the love and freedom of Jesus Christ.
                                          ELEMENTS SHALL MELT
                   We recently ran across a strange development in Bible Study.  It changes our whole concept about what is going to be burned up. 
     Most of us have been taught that sometime in the future the whole world is going to be destroyed by fire.  In studying the "elements" that are going to melt with fervent heat we found the word for "elements" in the Greek is STOICHEION.
    In every case where the word STOICHEION is used in the New Testament it represents the law of Moses. ( Element in Gal. 4:3,9 and II Peter 3:10, 12—Rudiment in Col. 2:8,20—Principle in Heb. 5:12)  ( sin & death- FCT.Eby – 28:1 – Sin free)
    The Conclusion of this study is that God's supernatural fire will melt (break up) the law of Moses which brings death.  The thing that is keeping us in this present world (age) and preventing us from entering the new world ( age ) ---wherein dwelleth righteousness—is the law of Moses (II peter 3:5-13).

Please read Carefully.
         A confirming idea is in 1Cor 15:53-56.  The grave is the product of death.  The sting of death is sin.  The strength of sin is the LAW.  Conversely, when the law is fulfilled there is no more sin.  When there is no sin there is no sting of death.   
          The conclusion of this is that one step toward entering immortality is entering the law of Jesus by being LED by the Holy Spirit, not the law of Moses. (Matt. 16:17-18 ) too.
         "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, [ I Believe, Lee Damboise II, this happens when one becomes (Awakened by God )

                                                 NEW LAWS
         "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory?  "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the LAW" (1 Cor. 15:52-56 ).  Notice that the LAW is the strength of sin. Moses' Law    To them who be patient continuance in well doing, seek for glory and honor and immortality, (God will render) eternal life (Rom. 2:7 ).   The bible teaches us to seek immortality ( the state of NOT DYING) by being led by the Holy Spirit out of the Law of Moses into the law of Jesus Christ which is Love.

SPY ON YOUR LIBERTY
                   Paul wrote about some false brothers who crept into his meetings unawares.  They came in to spy out the liberty which was being practiced in Paul's meetings. Paul said that the purpose of the men was to bring Paul's group into bondage of Moses` Law (Gal. 2:4 )even though they were Christians.    Notice that Paul clearly states he was not subject to those men – not even for an hour.  In other words, while Paul was in charge of the meetings, group, city, etc...he felt HE should be led by the Holy Spirit.  Those men had no right to sneak in to put his people under the bondage of the law --  they were free in Jesus Christ to be led by the Holy Spirit.   However, when Paul went up to the (Born again--Jewish Circumised Law Christians, Peter's Gospel)  at Jerusalem, where they were still under the law, then he acted in a completely opposite way.  Paul recognized the TEMPORAL authority the church leaders had over him because he was on their ground.  So he did what the local hierarchy (Acts 21:23 ) told him to do even though he was warned be the Holy Spirit( Acts 21:4 ) not to go back to the Jewish Christians at Jerusalem (back to the law).

               Thus, we see that he acted in two different ways.  In Galicia he absolutely was not subject to the Christian Jews but in Jerusalem he was.   To bring this where we live now  if you are on your own ground, doing your own thing, being led by the Holy Spirit, then keep it up!  If someone comes in to tell you your way is wrong and that your people would be closer to God and More pleasing to Him by keeping some sort of law, commandment, tradition, or such like—you do not have to obey them.  It will not hurt to listen to them, if you continue to be led by the Holy Spirit, not them.  But if you leave Your location and go to "Theirs," you better keep their rules, remembering that you are finding favor with them, not God ( Rom. 14 ).   There are still some people around who want to put us back under Moses` law.  As far as I can see--- Jesus Christ did fulfill the O.T. laws of God and gave us simply and only four N.T. commandments, pg.134..  The study of those four simple commandments has been developed in this report. ( The book, Free to Live ), it is not an error to teach that Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.  Col. 2:20 told us that submission to ordinances is nothing but a show of wisdom and does not do a thing to check the flesh.  Jesus forgave my trespasses by blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against me (Col 2:14.)  As God gives me grace I don't think I'll let any Man judge me in regard to meat, drink, respect of holiday, new moon, or sabbath ( Col. 2:16 ) I believe that I am Justified by the faith of  Jesus Christ,  NOT MY FAITH, His faith, and not by Works of The LAW.  "Knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by the faith of Him, Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be Justified by the faith of JC and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no man be justified" (Gal. 2:16 )  "If righteousness came by the law then Christ is dead in vain"  (Gal. 2:21 ). See J.C's Faith or Yours.
          "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage"[ LAW ]  ( Gal. 5:1 )  "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by  law; ye are fallen from grace" Gal 5:4  "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this, Thou  shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" ( Gal. 5:14 ).  Wherefore the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith, (Who's faith but His Not Ours) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  Gal. 2:16  ;  K.J.V. ONLY   & Gal. 3:24 K.J.V. ONLY.

                       

                        GOD DOES NOT CHANGE--METHODS DO
                   
                   God does not change but His methods of dealing with us do change as we mature.  As an example, the law did not come until four hundred and thirty years after Abraham.  Abraham was a man of faith and God rewarded him for it.  But he sure was not a man of law.  If he would have been alive about 450 years later---when people were judged by the law---he would probably have been stoned for the way he treated his wife and lied to the kings.  But remember, there was no law and consequently no sin.  You see, Abraham represented an age or period of time before there was any law.
           Therefore God dealt with him on the basis of his faith.  He could not be judged by the law because there was no law.   
     In reference to the fact that there is no sin if there is no law ---  also connect the thought that overcoming the law will remove us from the curse of death, 1 Cor. 15:55-58 says, " O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.   But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through{ Dia. } our Lord Jesus Christ."  This indicates that death comes because of sin and sin comes because of the law.  Conversely, it might be interpreted that the law brings sin and sin brings death.  Remembering that we are to seek immortality  (Rom.2:7)   
Perhaps a clue to entering the state of immortality is to eliminate the cause of death which is sin and law.  Since Jesus fulfilled the law and brought us four simple new ones( laws ), we may find the process of entering immortality will involve our keeping Jesus' four commandments and not allowing our minds to condemn ourselves when we are led by the Holy Spirit to do things that are against the commandments of Moses. 
                   I am presently convinced there is no authority for teaching the idea that the O.T. is to be divided into sections and that some of those sections are not to be followed and that some are to be used as law even now.  Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.  To get a little technical, the TORAH is the law and it includes the total of everything concerning it.  The TSAVAH is the prime commandment and it includes the rituals and lots of other statutes too---  including the Ten Commandments ( words ).  The MISHPAT is the judgment.  The CHOQ is the statute and decree.  The MITSVAH is from the TSAVAH and is a commandment.  The DABAR is a "word" and is used in the Ten Commandments ( word ) sometimes called DECALOG  ( or the 10 words ).

               The EDAH  is a testimony or witness and comes from the idea to duplicate.  The CHUQQAH    is a statute or ordinance or decreed limit.  These are eight O.T. words that are used interchangeably in our translations.  Concerning the O.T. law; there is just no way to decide which ones to keep and which to throw out.  In checking out the article which pleads with us to return to the law, I noticed that the author quoted some of the better commands ( TSAVAH ) such as apply to health, government and military ideas  --  and I agree   --  but there was no mention of the commands  ( TSAVAH ) which are impossible to keep in OUR PRESENT SOCIETY.  For example, give dead animal meat to a stranger and sell to alien but don't eat it yourself ( Deut. 14:21 ).  I wouldn't want to give or sell bad meat to anyone.  Also, offer no blemished sacrifice (Deut. 17:1 ). Well, I don't intend to offer any sacrifice at all --  blemished or not.  How about  --  stone the wicked person (Deut. 17:5 ) ?
           I don't believe Jesus wants me to stone anybody..  ? The commandments say if I take a beautiful women captive in a battle I am to leave her alone for a month before having sexual intercourse with her ( Deut. 21:10 ) When  I was in the U. S. Navy in the Korean War I never intended to keep that commandment by having sexual intercourse with any captive woman  --  and my wife Agreed !  How about the command that the son of your hated wife is to receive the greater inheritance if born before the son of your beloved wife ?  The only way I know how to keep that command is to engage in polygamy and I do not intend to keep that command.  In fact, my government would prosecute me, my society would persecute me and MY WIFE WOULD EXECUTE ME if I did keep it !  The command ( TSAVAH ) is to kill your stubborn, rebellious child.  I'm glad that my parents didn't keep that one!  The command ( TSAVAH ) says that a rapist MUST marry his victim ( any age ) if she is not engaged to another man ( Deut. 22:28 ).  I find it inconceivable that anyone would want to go back to the commandments of the O. T.
                   It is a thrill to me to know that my Savior Jesus Christ made it all simple by condensing (8) different words and hundreds of different ways of translating them into       ( 4 ) simple commands.

     1.   Watch for the return of the Son of Man (Second coming ) (Mark 13:34 ) I Lee Damboise II, believes this is when a person is(Born again--Jewish Circumised Law Christians, Peter's Gospel) or US GENTILES (Adopted into the body of Christ--Jews + Gentiles, Pauls Gospel, Grace )].  And has NOTHING to do with a Rapture Lie.
2.    Love each other (John 15:17 ).
    3.   When we minister we are to preach and teach that ( Acts 10:41-43 ):
A.   Jesus was ordained of God
B.   Jesus brings remission of sins to believers...
4.     Be a light to the Gentiles ( which you were ), Acts 13: 47.
                                       Now I feel FREE TO LIVE

Are you preaching? Has the fire got you? Why so long posts? Its just me, just what are you trying to tell me?

I am not telling you nothing personally , just that the post got at my nerve that is sensitive to those that are teaching the message of death... i.e. angels of darkness. i.e. those that are pretending to be angels  of light... Good New message ,   messengers. When in reality are teaching that there is no way out of sin / Death in this earth life, so you have to " Live " with that fact.... in which it is the biggest Lie ever sold to human kind.

QuoteFor example, give dead animal meat to a stranger and sell to alien but don't eat it yourself ( Deut. 14:21 ). 

Actually, there are those who consider themselves under the law who still do this, and they have been conditioned to think it's ok because it is the law.  Is it ok except in the most primitive of societies?  There are those who keep doing the same bad things over and over and consider their sins atoned for under the law.  Is this what God expected?

The only way to be free is through Christ, and the royal commandments kept through him.  Enjoyed your post, Lee.