we are not alive and die, we are dead and we come alive

[claypot]

Sorry for the long title but I have been talking to the Lord Jesus again and that usually gets me in trouble but it also brings out some new things like this post will explain.

I have had 4 people close to me 'die' recently and I did not see them as dying but as leaving death and moving on to life.

Jesus said to let the dead bury the dead mt8.22. He described people who we call alive as dead.
Paul writes that we are dead in our sins eph 2.1.

We have it all backwards. We are not alive then die. We are dead then live.

For many many years I have been troubled by the truth that death is our enemy 1cor 15.26 because if death is the portal to life which it is then I could not see death as an enemy. But if I see us all as dead now and life on the horizon then it makes sense to me that death is an enemy because this death state is definitely not a fun condition to be in.

Even for those who enter the lake of fire these thoughts make sense because they are going from one death state to another, a second one, and then they go to life from there. (If you want you can see my post on the lake of fire.)

To sum up, we are dead now unless of course we are starting to come alive by having a relationship with the Lord of Life, Jesus Christ.

I think this is why movies and books that focus on zombies and vampires became so popular. They perfectly represent people as dead yet moving around as though alive. I think we relate on a subconscious level sometimes to the fact that we are dead now, not alive.

Just thinking after spending time talking with Jesus!

claypot

[rosered]

  Good to see you back Claypot!!
  I agree  with your  post ,  I have felt this way for a long time  also .
   Especially   the scripture , to be carnally minded is death  and it is an enemy against the Spirit [Life in and of itself ]

But than Life and death are ours and all things are ours  and we are Christ and Christ is Gods ......  helps a lot too .

I believe we have become desensitized   to be subjected to so many  different  forms of ''death '' 
It has caused a'' lukewarm ''  state of thinking or mindset

  I have come to the conclusion    that changing our minds  is the key of understanding    the great gulf between the  two  realms   of thoughts ... and what captivates us  [holds us in its power ] .

  Blessings bro   ! :dsunny:

[claypot]

Thanks for the welcome. You all are never far from my thoughts. Your ministry on this site is a bright light in this world.

It just struck me so hard and clear the other day as I watched a friend 'die'. On my way home I said to my wife that he didn't die, he finally came alive!!! I went on to explain that Jesus said to let the dead bury the dead. Jesus was calling those who we call alive, Jesus was calling them dead. Amazing!

[rosered]

  I love the great LIGHT   moments too!!!!!!!!   its like a burst of   pure JOY   brother!!!!!!!   

glad to have you sharing again  on the TM !!!!    Amen !


alive to the world and dead to God , means ALIVE to God  and dead the world 


to me and  that is  to take up  the    same CROSS .. Jesus poured out HIS HOLY Spirit on all flesh   from that point on  as serving all    , we in turn  can , should and do  obey   His voice   [Living things ] and  do the same   

For the LIVING GOD 
"To those who were rejected and not my people,
    I will say to them: 'You are mine.'
And to those who were unloved I will say:
    'You are my darling.' "

26 And:

"In the place where they were told, 'You are nobody,'
    this will be the very place where they will be renamed
    'Children of the living God.' "
27 And the prophet Isaiah cries out to Israel:
Though the children of Israel
    are as many as the sands of the seashore,
    only a remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord Yahweh will act
    and carry out his word on the earth,
    and waste no time to accomplish it!

no one under the old law can survive  in their own strength [ they too shall come to Jesus Christ  and LIVE .
GOD is awesome !!!!

[marie glen]

I think we are dead because of sin - the Greek is "missing the mark" which the bible says the result or wages in the king's englishe.. And so we are mortal, and headed to death which I believe is a lack of life and the opposite of life as evil is opposite to good. (I think they are both the same.)

Whether christians in death are "asleep" or "with the Lord" immediately..  :dontknow: and actually don't care.

But I do not believe mortal man has immortality or everlasting life until in union with Jesus. And Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life..

I believe Adam and Eve, before their disobeying, because the tree of knowing good and evil was in the garden.. was there, thus a possible option - I believe the 2 ways of living were before them.. metaphorically, like two highways.. or a crossroads.

Making us as thinking beings, includes being able to make choices. But God "who alone is immortal" I think IS life.. And "is perfect". So imperfect / missing the mark is just naturally the opposite of life/God/perfection.

So we are learning the all important lesson of good from evil, life from death.

Or.. we could be beings without the ability to think?
   :2c: :gsmile:

Most of all.. God is Good! "From Him, of Him and to Him are all things."

[claypot]

My point in this post and I hope to see more input from many of you whom I consider amazing people of God, my main point is that many have it all backwards. We are now alive now, we are dead. When we come into contact with Life (Jesus) we become alive.

We are sad when someone dies but they did not die. A dead person cannot die. We died in Adam when we ate of the tree. We come alive when we eat of another tree, the tree of life, Jesus. Simple.

I'm posting this to glean your comments. You all are lights but to tell you the truth you often go way above my head. Don't stop trying though. Think of me as in your sunday school class. Dying/living 101 as it were.

[GodIsLove]

My point in this post and I hope to see more input from many of you whom I consider amazing people of God, my main point is that many have it all backwards. We are now alive now, we are dead. When we come into contact with Life (Jesus) we become alive.

We are sad when someone dies but they did not die. A dead person cannot die. We died in Adam when we ate of the tree. We come alive when we eat of another tree, the tree of life, Jesus. Simple.

I'm posting this to glean your comments. You all are lights but to tell you the truth you often go way above my head. Don't stop trying though. Think of me as in your sunday school class. Dying/living 101 as it were.

I agree with that and came to an identical conclusion. I may have posted on it, but I don't remember where.  Maybe I'll find it.

[claypot]

Looking forward to any posts you have pertaining to this quest.

[GodIsLove]

I keep seeing references to blotting out names...

Does this mean we are all written in the book of life, but can be blotted out?

And if so, it's not an immutable book, it can be erased, so it stands to reason it can be added to.

So if someone's name is in the book of life they ARE alive:

John 5:24
24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

If their name is not in the book of life it means they ARE currently dead (spiritually), as we all were at one point:

Eph 2:1
New American Standard Bible
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

King James Bible
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Good News Translation
In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins.

So those who are spiritually dead go to the LOF to die a second death...the one that those written in the book of life have already experienced:

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 2:20
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

2 Timothy 2:11
It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Which means when they pass through the lake of fire they pass from a state of perpetual death aka spiritual death, and die again, to be raised a new creation in Christ.

Because the lake of fire:

Exodus 24:17
17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.

Luke 3:16
16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 3:11-12
11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Chaff:
the husks of corn or other seed separated by winnowing or threshing.
synonyms: husks, hulls, pods, shells, bran, shucks
"separating the chaff from the grain"

So every grain of wheat has chaff. Chaff isn't a separate entity but a part of us that will be separated and burned up in His fire.

[GodIsLove]

Genesis 2
15The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Ezekiel 18 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Soul Who Sins Shall Die
18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 "What do you[a] mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

I am going to show verses that in my opinion show that these statements are true of spiritual death and not necessarily physical death:

Ephesians 2:1
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Or this translation:

Ephesians 2:1
1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. 2 At that time you followed the world's evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers in space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God. 3 Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger. 4 But God's mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great, 5 that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ.

John 6:53
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves."

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

1 Timothy 5:6
But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead."

Romans
Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

Luke 9:60
But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."

2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Romans 7:8
But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jeremiah 21:8
"You shall also say to this people, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death.

Romans 7:9
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

2 Corinthians 3:7
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

Luke 15
The end of the prodigal son parable:

My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'

[claypot]

 So bottom line is we are zombies like the movies portray. That's why I believe those movies are so popular because they hit at a core truth. Don't get me wrong personally I do not like those movies and I rarely ever watch them but I know they're out there.

We are dead until the Spirit of God moves upon us to raise us up and causes us to begin a relationship with him. Thanks

I am not out to win any arguments or speak any truth just for speaking. I tried to find out what practical good any knowledge is.

Knowing we are dead right now gives me comfort in some strange way. Knowing that we come alive only as we connect to Jesus Christ gives me comfort.

There is such grief in the world when someone ceases their physical existence.  This is not even dying. Even though we inhabit a physical structure that physical structure is not essentially who or what we are. It is the spirit that gives life not the physical.

[rosered]

   :HeartThrob:    :dsunny:   Lovely thread CP!

  I so agree  :thumbsup:  good posting , Life in the WORDS  GIL!!  AMEN
 

[marie glen]

We died in Adam when we ate of the tree. We come alive when we eat of another tree, the tree of life, Jesus. Simple.

This I like and definitely agree with! :thumbsup: My only difference is, I think, a tiny one - that to die not yet saved is not a continuing on in a conscious death state --- but they will rise for "the judgment" which I think will actually be for atonement! (But that's another topic.)

So whether believers rise at their individual death, or all together at Jesus' visible return (when He brings all believers who have died with Him, 1 thess.4) it doesn't matter (to me,lol).

And bottom line - ALL will be reconciled and born again..

But I don't believe any soul is naturally immortal.. because it says things like "He alone who is immortal.."

At the same time - what you are saying, that all die from the fruit of the tree of knowing good and evil

"As in Adam all die.."

And all who eat of the tree of life - which really, is Jesus as we know - all in Christ - are born again and have life!

Is absolutely true!

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive..." 1 Corinthians 15:22

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man(Adam) the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man(Jesus) the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, HOW MUCH MORE did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15
     :banana: :dsunny: :Peace2:

[rosered]

  Hi  Marie  , I know all souls belong to God  , it is the seat of emotions  and  Jesus takes that seat  in judgement of life , in Isaiah  53

  GOD  already predicted  ,  it would be us believers   that would be  taking on Jesus soul [ judgement seat ]  as the carnal mind  that is the enemy of the Spirit , man of sin would  be  exposed  and removed   and Jesus soul / life would   remain  , to do  the Father will desire and save  everyone whom believes and calls upon His name , this is Him now ruling and reigning in our hearts  in His seat /our hearts  and have passed from death to life  doing the works of the Father with JESUS  CHRIST  as our King  and we are His kingdom possessions to do as He  sees fit

Isai 35 


A Grave Assigned
(Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)

9He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

and with a rich man in His death,

although He had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10Yet it was the LORD's will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer.

And whenHis soul is made a guilt offering,[ poured out His life /blood  upon  mankind  and covered their transgressions  and many would rise up  to Life in Christ now being a part of His living body  and walking in the same Spirit of Life .no longer having the  man of sin/ rich man by robbing and stealing  from God 's glory  [ evil one ] ruling their hearts     , keep us from the evil one , wicked ruler of the heart] ... my thoughts on this  verse

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11After the anguish of His soul,  the cross/death  describes his anguish in the garden of gethsemane

He will see the light of life and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many,

and He will bear their iniquities

12Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great,

and He will divide the spoils with the strong,

because He has poured out His life unto death,

and He was numbered among the transgressors.

Yet He bore the sin of many

and made intercession for the transgressors.

  to me many will be made right on this side of judgement  some it will come in literal death of the flesh .
  Because Jesus always preached to us  that  satan's power was only over the flesh [turn one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so in the Day of the Lord his spirit  will be saved / no worries about what you can do to the mortal flesh , but be concerned about  your souls  and what manner of  spirit is ruling over them souls !

1 Cor 5 4When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus,


5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?...

Our only praise is to  GOD be the glory  though the Living Word our Lord Jesus Christ  , by walking   it all out ,in the Spirit of life .

  where there  is no law there  is no transgression  , but where there is the law  , judgement comes to those whom keep the law   and it is Life  in Christ   love one another as I have loved you .
  but to the law breaker  whom judges the law  and judges  others with that law  also  brings judgement on his own soul .

  the law is basically for the lawless one , that can never keep the law  in the first place , look at the world and see the  fruit of its doings   that man of sin ruling over the heart  is restrained  [ satan  bound  for 1000 years  to be loosed  ]  till the day of the Lord comes ?


concerning "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him," Paul says this  the Day of Christ (Day of the Lord ) cannot come unless the man of sin is revealed (2Th. 2Th. 2:1-4) and that the man of sin was being actively restrained
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (2Th. 2Th. 2:6-7)

James 5:9
Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Jesus is waiting at the  hearts doors!  I do believe the day of the Lord is  an individual  work of God , just by the way the scriptures describe   His coming  as a , ''TO DAY ''  and, '' many in their graves  will hear His voice and  live '',  type of understanding   from  '' many  being bound up in disobedience''by the man of sin  as in Adam all die  but in Christ  all shall be made alive descriptives . as every knee will bow and tongue confess  Jesus is Lord of all .

I don't know if it will be an event or  age type of  thing yet .  I just cannot say with 100 % certainty  one way or the other not really . because the rest of the dead not live till the 1000 year reign  was over , and death is cast into  the LOF .

I have an idea  , because the DAY  being a 1000 years to God is One day  , and none of us live  mortally  in that state as  the original Adam did , but we know God has shortened the days of being mortal  for the sake of the elect  [Matt 24 ]
I just keep looking for the answers in the  book of Life and the book of the dead [memorials ] Life & death  are ours  as we experience both within us  as we are Christ and Christ is Gods .I also wait and rest in the Lord for the truth to come .   :HeartThrob:

[claypot]

For me, these posts get so far over my head that I have to keep looking at the original title to see what we are discussing!

I look at Scripture and try to translate it in a manner that relates to the here and now in all our 'lives'.

If there is some truth to our being dead now (mt 8.22 Jesus saying let the dead bury the dead) what does that mean and how does it affect our existance right now?

[Ross]

  We are dead until the Spirit of God moves upon us to raise us up and causes us to begin a relationship with him. Thanks

  Knowing we are dead right now gives me comfort in some strange way. Knowing that we come alive only as we connect to Jesus Christ gives me comfort.

There is such grief in the world when someone ceases their physical existence.  This is not even dying. Even though we inhabit a physical structure that physical structure is not essentially who or what we are. It is the spirit that gives life not the physical.

Paul states that picture in 1 Cor 15;36 " What you sow does not come to life unless it dies."
He says this after making the point that we come to life at His time, not ours.
We are still to look and learn so that this gets taught to us in God's way not mans'.
I.M.O He does comfort us and encourage us while we seek.

[claypot]

I like it Ross

God 'sowed' us and we died in Adam and we are coming alive.

Maybe that's why these thoughts give me comfort. I am coming alive. We are coming alive because we already died and are coming from death to life every second of every day. Each in their own order 1cor15.23-24.

[marie glen]

Amen.. like caterpillar to butterfly.. the symbol of being born again.. :dsunny:

[Dandelion]

We are born into this world, in the flesh. To go to Heaven, we must be transformed, and be able to dwell in the ways of the Holy Spirit. Jesus paved the way.......to be born again, we must die to self. But, in the dying, we are actually being born into a new existence.....into Heaven.

John 3:1 - 8

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 12:

23But Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

27Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save Me from this hour'? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. 28Father, glorify Your name!"

Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."

29The crowd standing there heard it and said that it had thundered. Others said that an angel had spoken to Him.

30In response, Jesus said, "This voice was not for My benefit, but yours. 31Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Death to one's self here, means birth to a new self, in God's Kingdom, where there will be no more strife or tears.

2 Corinthians 5:

13If we are out of our mind, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.a The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Revelation 21:

5And the One seated on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are faithful and true." 6And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

I just love how the Bible is one complete Love Story, from God to us. The more one reads it, the more one can see the connections and confirmations. Amen.

D.

[jugghead]

For me, it is the "strength of sin" IN us that has to die.

The apostle Paul tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians:

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law." (15:56)

The first question I believe we need to ask is this: How does the law give sin strength? In a stronger sense of this question: How does the law give sin power? Through the disciple Matthew in his "good news" (Gospel), he recorded these words of Jesus:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged." (7:1)

and also, through Luke in his "good news", he recorded these words of Jesus:

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. (6:37).

In what I have come to understand and what makes sense to me is this: If we are told not to judge others, then would not judging someone be a sin? By the giving of His Spirit to us, God has given us the ability "TO DISCERN", to discern "good and evil" and I believe that the nature of man takes this ability to discern good and evil and applies it to people, he uses it not to just discern people who do good and people who do evil, he uses this ability to discern "TO JUDGE" people as either good or evil.

Paul tells us about himself when he says:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (Romans 7:9)"

which I see as: he was a person of grace, have the ability to discern good and evil but then that person of grace died when he started using the law to judge people. "Sin revived" = "judging people (sin) revived"

This is what I see in "the strength of sin is the law"; the law gives power (strength) to sin when we judge people; when we judge people "in the flesh", rather than just discerning "what is OF the flesh (evil/hurtful)" and "what is OF the Spirit (good/healing)"

I believe we are to discern WHAT is good and evil NOT WHO is good and evil, but if we judge those who are evil, it is not to be taken (mixed) with "pride" with the mindset of thinking we are better than another, because we were all the same in that "we judged people", in other words, we were all dead in our sin; dead in our "judging of people".

My  :2c:

and wanted to add because D posted before I did:

Be born again into the Spirit of DISCERNMENT (of "what" is good and evil) not a spirit of CONDEMNATION (of "who" is good and evil)

Be Grace TO His people(children) NOT condemnation OF His people(children)

[marie glen]

We are born into this world, in the flesh. To go to Heaven, we must be transformed, and be able to dwell in the ways of the Holy Spirit. Jesus paved the way.......to be born again, we must die to self. But, in the dying, we are actually being born into a new existence.....into Heaven.

John 3:1 - 8

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 12:

23But Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

27Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save Me from this hour'? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. 28Father, glorify Your name!"

Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."

29The crowd standing there heard it and said that it had thundered. Others said that an angel had spoken to Him.

30In response, Jesus said, "This voice was not for My benefit, but yours. 31Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Death to one's self here, means birth to a new self, in God's Kingdom, where there will be no more strife or tears.

2 Corinthians 5:

13If we are out of our mind, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.a The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Revelation 21:

5And the One seated on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are faithful and true." 6And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

I just love how the Bible is one complete Love Story, from God to us. The more one reads it, the more one can see the connections and confirmations. Amen.

D.

Amen sister D!

...I like the verse, "if we are out of our mind it is for God" :laughing7: amen!

:Chinscratch: wow, when I read the Revelation verse "it is done", in my mind I saw "the end."  ...All things new, perfect, because He will be all in all.. All born again. "All things are of Him, from Him and to Him"!

..."a love story.."   .."the end."  ...and beginning!

[marie glen]

I believe we are to discern WHAT is good and evil NOT WHO is good and evil, but if we judge those who are evil, it is not to be taken (mixed) with "pride" with the mindset of thinking we are better than another, because we were all the same in that "we judged people", in other words, we were all dead in our sin; dead in our "judging of people".

My  :2c:

and wanted to add because D posted before I did:

Be born again into the Spirit of DISCERNMENT (of "what" is good and evil) not a spirit of CONDEMNATION (of "who" is good and evil)

Be Grace TO His people(children) NOT condemnation OF His people(children)

Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I totally agree! And you said that so well.. I mean for one thing, any and all of us, called chosen/predestined.. were selected NOT because of any of our choice, doing or deserving.. It's just in His truth drama (story!) there has to be more than one sort of character? So we have the wheat aNd the tares.. And we all were tares!

And it's only in dying to one's self (as on the throne) that as a tare we die :banana: and are born again as wheat.

And the saying "but for the grace of God.. there go I" is totally, totally true! So if we commit the sin of judging others, or another, we judge our self! (I understand that verse now!)
...And we pour contempt/judgment upon Jesus and His cross?

[jugghead]

I believe we are to discern WHAT is good and evil NOT WHO is good and evil, but if we judge those who are evil, it is not to be taken (mixed) with "pride" with the mindset of thinking we are better than another, because we were all the same in that "we judged people", in other words, we were all dead in our sin; dead in our "judging of people".

My  :2c:

and wanted to add because D posted before I did:

Be born again into the Spirit of DISCERNMENT (of "what" is good and evil) not a spirit of CONDEMNATION (of "who" is good and evil)

Be Grace TO His people(children) NOT condemnation OF His people(children)

Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I totally agree! And you said that so well.. I mean for one thing, any and all of us, called chosen/predestined.. were selected NOT because of any of our choice, doing or deserving.. It's just in His truth drama (story!) there has to be more than one sort of character? So we have the wheat aNd the tares.. And we all were tares!

And it's only in dying to one's self (as on the throne) that as a tare we die :banana: and are born again as wheat.

And the saying "but for the grace of God.. there go I" is totally, totally true! So if we commit the sin of judging others, or another, we judge our self! (I understand that verse now!)
...And we pour contempt/judgment upon Jesus and His cross?

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)

If we see that God has shown and given us grace, then as a son we are also to show and give grace to others: for a Son can only do what He sees His Father do.

and by what you said "we judge our self" this is what I see in the garden with Adam and Eve, they first judged themselves as unwise therefore it caused them to eat, and by the eating, their eyes were opened to judgment of self and they judged themselves, causing them to hide, causing them to put themselves in the grave.

But by the grace of God, He will remove us from that grave, from that hiding and cover us, cover us with the sacrifice. We see ourselves as HE sees us, not how WE see ourselves. See through His eyes of the Spirit, not through our eyes of the flesh.

My  :2c:

[claypot]

So much dying and coming alive!

We started out alive in the garden then died in the garden and then we live again in Christ.

Does this sum it up?

We can sure think we are alive when we are really dead and I suppose we can think we are dead then we are really alive???!!

[rosered]

So much dying and coming alive!

We started out alive in the garden then died in the garden and then we live again in Christ.

Does this sum it up?

We can sure think we are alive when we are really dead and I suppose we can think we are dead then we are really alive???!!

  Yes I see the   simile    God is love   was sharing

  I alive in the world is dead to God and dead to the world is ALIVE  to God   in simpler terms  :HeartThrob: