Hi! All
Do "Created" and "Begotten" mean the same thing. In my Strong's Concordance they come under different numbers and none of the numbers contain both words, so there has to be a major difference. Idols/gods can be created but GOD cannot so how can Jesus Christ be God if He was created?.
Begotten
Hebrew:- 3208, 4138, 3318
Greek:- 3439, 1080, 313, 4416
Created
Hebrew:- 1254 (36 times right through OT)
Greek:- 2936 (12 times right through NT)
In John 1:1-3 Titled " The Deity Of Jesus Christ"
We are told that Jesus Christ is the Word, and that the Word was with God from the beginning, and the Word was God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
In 1John 5:1 we are told that Jesus Christ is BORN/BEGOTTEN of God. This means He was given birth to not created. "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."
There are many schools of thought on this and it is very confusing could someone please clear it up for me.
Peace!
Roy UK
Quote from: Roy Monis on August 09, 2008, 06:16:15 PM
Do "Created" and "Begotten" mean the same thing. In my Strong's Concordance they come under different numbers and none of the numbers contain both words, so there has to be a major difference. Idols/gods can be created but GOD cannot so how can Jesus Christ be God if He was created?.
Jesus Christ was pre-existent prior to His embodiment in flesh when He tabernacled amongst us. Physical birth was just His introduction to us. It wasn't the moment of the Creation of His Spirit, which was ever-One with the Father and His Soul, which is His mind, will, and emotions. Proverbs 8 is the only chapter that I've ever seen that leaves the door open on the Creation of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. But again, that could just have been in the sense of a moment in the space/time demension of our "reality" that they were introduced to this world rather than necessarily a total formation from either nothing or from the Father as new beings that hadn't existed before.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--John 3:16
"only begotten" is one word in the Greek, "monogenes."
"only begotten"
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
I have heard this word "monogenes" defined as 'unique.'
It comes from two words
"monos"---meaning "single", "only", "sole," "alone"
and
"ginomai"--meaning "to cause to be," "to become" (as in our word, "generate")
There is always only one son, and there always will be only one son, the Christ.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
--Rev 1
This may not be about whether Jesus was created or not when it comes to the word begotten.
Jesus himself said He came out of God. This is not necessarily proof that Jesus was created, but it suggests something different than the Triune God that includes Jesus that always was. There is a separation between Jesus and God although they are considered one as Jesus says, his only purpose is to do the will of the Father. He is not doing the will of himself, yet he is equal to God, yet still subject to the father.
That can kinda get the brain up in a twist.
1 John 5:1 from the Greek says "out of the God has been begotten"
Notice that the bible does not say "Jesus is Gods only Son" It says Jesus is his only begotten Son, We are sons and daughters of God. But it is still not a contradiction.
Here is why
G1080 gennao ghen-nah'-o
from a variation of G1085;
to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother);
figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be
delivered of, gender, make, spring.
This is a reference to our earthly perspective of Jesus life.
Mod break
Unfortunately trinitarian debates go nowhere fast and are a non sequitur anyway. The owner Gary informed me when I was admin that these are not to be allowed to degenerate to food fights and preferably not discussed.
One cannot suppress it entirely as it does pop its head up from time to time.
No one is going to convince any opposing party hence we should leave it at that. Plenty else to talk about.
Quote from: SOtW on August 09, 2008, 07:08:02 PM
Interesting question. Though this may not affect the answer, what is the dilemma this causes you?
Hi! SOtW
You ask what my dilemma in this is. Well, it's pretty simple really. Before His earthly existence we are told that
He (Jesus) was the Word and that the Word
was from the very beginning, also that the Word
was With God (Father) and finally we are told that the
Word was God. -----
The Deity of Jesus Christ -----
In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God, and the
Word was God. He was in the
beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being....." (Jn.1:1-3).
The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.
We also know that idols/man made gods can be created, they are not begotten or born. And we know that GOD is
ONE and there is no other. "I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. (Isa.45:5),
This means that our God and Father is ONE God. But we have been told that the Word was with God and the Word was God as well. So that establishes the fact that the Word was with the Father from the beginning. Now in John 5:1 we are told that Jesus is the only Begotten Son born of the Father. This means that the Son is in the Father and ONE with Him ONE GOD. "I came out from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go unto the Father." (Jn,16:28), then Jesus Himself tells us that;
"I and the Father are one." (Jn.10:30). But He concedes that He is subject to the Father; "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the
Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28).
This is my dilemma, brother, SOtW, can you comment now?
(http://dl4.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1176/1176424t4nufen6go.gif) (http://www.glitter-graphics.com)
Roy UK
"Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28).
"greater"
G3187
μείζων
meizōn
mide'-zone
Irregular comparative of G3173; larger (literally or figuratively, specifically in age): - elder, greater (-greatest), more.
G3173
μέγας
megas
meg'-as
Including the prolonged forms, femine μεγάλη megalē, plural μέγάλοι megaloi, etc.; compare also G3176, G3187], big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application): - (+ fear) exceedingly, great (-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.
Jesus was speaking this in his earthly incarnation--the Word become flesh.
Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I."
--John 14:28
"come"[again]
G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
Rev 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen.281 Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
"come"
G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder. For as in the day of Midian's defeat, you have shattered the yoke that burdens them, the bar across their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor. Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, and will be fuel for the fire.
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.
--Isa 9:2-7
Quote from: SeekerSA on August 11, 2008, 06:17:00 PM
Mod break
Unfortunately trinitarian debates go nowhere fast and are a non sequitur anyway. The owner Gary informed me when I was admin that these are not to be allowed to degenerate to food fights and preferably not discussed.
One cannot suppress it entirely as it does pop its head up from time to time.
No one is going to convince any opposing party hence we should leave it at that. Plenty else to talk about.
In case anybody decides to get upset with you about this, Bernie, I'm right here endorsing the decision to leave this subject locked right at this point. And I've merged the two topics that were started by the same individual on this. This is one of those subjects where probably everybody's got a "proof text" and lifted from their Biblical context may even contradict between Polytheism, Trinitarianism, Twoness, Oneness, and Arianism. To me, this is in that category of subjects that Gary Amirault wanted closed down when some of the boards got closed down, the direction of the boards was redefined, and he finally okayed a new admin. Bernie's got a forum, and possibly already a thread started on this on what I believe is the Beliefs board at
http://fatherslove.freeforums.org/portal.php (http://fatherslove.freeforums.org/portal.php) It's the best we can do on promoting this discussion as something that can be ongoing while maintaining the straighter line that Gary wants walked where these particular boards are concerned.