So, the main fruit in question for me is patience. What makes it necessary to learn, and what will it be necessary for? Like when God is all in all?
If these are throwaway fruits, seems like a big waste of time to learn and do these things, only to have them unneeded. I can see waiting on God is necessary to fulfill His plan, but what about after that.
And a bit of UR connection, this life is like a training ground. You got all these people, which God puts through this "boot camp" yet only 1% make it through and the rest are thrown away? A bit of a waste of resources if that were the case.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 19, 2018, 03:11:57 AM
And a bit of UR connection, this life is like a training ground. You got all these people, which God puts through this "boot camp" yet only 1% make it through and the rest are thrown away? A bit of a waste of resources if that were the case.
YES!
As to your fruit question...
I think all in all means we will all have God's qualities.
So all of the qualities are necessary, otherwise He wouldn't be all in all.
I'm curious what the use of these fruits are. Or maybe just patience, I can think of reasons why we need the other fruits. Does God need patience? It is the first fruit of the Spirit listed. If we won't need patience, why do we need it developed now?
When God is all in all, will we need to wait for anything?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 19, 2018, 03:11:57 AM
So, the main fruit in question for me is patience. What makes it necessary to learn, and what will it be necessary for? Like when God is all in all?
I think it's about being patients with the shortcomings of others.
"...slow to get angry..."
That sort of stuff.
Quote
If these are throwaway fruits, seems like a big waste of time to learn and do these things, only to have them unneeded. I can see waiting on God is necessary to fulfill His plan, but what about after that.
And a bit of UR connection, this life is like a training ground. You got all these people, which God puts through this "boot camp" yet only 1% make it through and the rest are thrown away? A bit of a waste of resources if that were the case.
I (still) believe in UR but I come (more) too believe there will be gradations/differences.
Jesus spoke about "least in heaven".
Not everybody is co-ruler in Christs Kingdom.
Not everybody rises from the dead at the same time and what happens then varies too:
- Saints resurrect 1000 years before others.
- The Christians called sheep and goats have a different destination.
So for sure Scripture teaches differences.
All-in-all most certainly doesn't mean all-is-the-same.
Why I'm so sure about that? Well, that's because I know theFather will be always the one in command. No one will ever equal Him.
That's just one gradation. The angels have ranks too.
Do you think it will be permanent differences? I believe we will always be lower than the Father. But will there always be differences between all of us, like in skills, roles, etc?
And about the vineyard wages parable, where the 11th hour workers get paid, would that apply here?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 19, 2018, 04:34:35 AM
I'm curious what the use of these fruits are. Or maybe just patience, I can think of reasons why we need the other fruits. Does God need patience? It is the first fruit of the Spirit listed. If we won't need patience, why do we need it developed now?
When God is all in all, will we need to wait for anything?
Patience is very subtle.. not just a patience of not being impatient.. not just a waiting.. but like WW said..
Of all the attributes of God, I think patience is indeed high up on the list! Patient with this wayward way.. He could've just fully programmed us.. or stuck to infant like/very small children..
And in the fulfillment of the Kingdom, when ALL is said and done, the fruits will still be fruit, and still attributes of Him.. Each indviduality (person) will be in union with Christ.. Christ fully formed in them..
"The fruit of the Spirit" - like the olive trees/oil and the 7 candlestick lampstand.. It's the oil which is burning and keeps the lamps burning. The oil of the Holy Spirit.
Even if no one needs to be patient with another, because no one acts out.. Patience will still be an attribute. Both of Him and of the Kingdom.. which will be a state of He being all in all.. (perfection, a world/reality more creative? not less?)
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 19, 2018, 07:35:06 PM
Do you think it will be permanent differences? I believe we will always be lower than the Father. But will there always be differences between all of us, like in skills, roles, etc?
And about the vineyard wages parable, where the 11th hour workers get paid, would that apply here?
I think it does apply.. but :dontknow: who knows? Of course Jesus is "always preeminent" and "firstborn", and then all submitted unto the Father, that He may be all in all..
I think the whole thing, the 2nd resurrection - initially - is a less joyful resurrection than the one of all believers at Jesus' return. But, I think it will 'catch up' at the "all in all" event(?) because if He is all in all.. And knowledge of the LORD will cover the Earth like water covers the seas and no more shall they have to say neighbor to neighbor "know the LORD"... The idea of different classes doesn't make a lot of sense to me.. Besides, Jesus said the greatest were "servants".. I expect that to carry through, throughout the millennium and the 'day' of Judgment/(discernment?) aka, Atonement, imo.. Then I believe after "all things are made new/the all in all" happening, all will have hearts of servants.. Not like the world where some lord it over others.. are lifted up in their own estimation, etc.. All that, I personally believe will be gone..
and good riddance! (imo :laughing7: )
1 Cor 13.4 " Love is patient! "
All the fruit of the Spirit is singular, not plural.
When explaining stuff to others I need to be patient.
God demonstrates patience otherwise we would be wiped out.
I'm thinking more of eternity, not in this age. The main reason we need to learn patience right now is because God made it that way. When God is all in all, will patience be necessary?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 19, 2018, 07:35:06 PM
Do you think it will be permanent differences? I believe we will always be lower than the Father. But will there always be differences between all of us, like in skills, roles, etc?
I have no idea what heaven looks like. But I doubt it will be playing a harp for eternity. I think we do stuff there. We might indeed learn and grow. Angels do stuff too.
QuoteAnd about the vineyard wages parable, where the 11th hour workers get paid, would that apply here?
I think we must not fall into the trap that everything is pointing to UR and to exactly the same thing.
Example: We all believe Jesus came to save the world and succeeded in that. But nobody can deny Scripture also teaches about saints that co-rule with Christ and some that don't. So perhaps the vineyard is about the saintly rulers stepping into the game at the last moment? "...the workers are few..."
You know, I haven't seen even one person or testimony say what All in All/heaven will look like, or what we will be doing for eternity. Not even a dream or vision from God mentioned any were about it. Maybe vague statements like "joy will increase." But nothing specific. Even NDEs don't get into it either from what I've seen. Maybe when it first starts, like learning. But nothing after learning stuff. And other NDEs just make it similar to sitting on clouds with harps, as they imply people basically do nothing, which I don't buy.
I've seen mention of what it won't be like, but not what it will be like. Considering how God seems to be lifting that veil now, I'm surprised someone has not been told what it will be like.
We will be learning for a long time!
God will always be wiser than us- ergo the Spirit will also learn, which requires patience.
Maybe nobody knows because it's far to complex too understand.
I'm sometimes wondering we are the first and only creation of God.
Angels were created before us and assist God managing earth/us.
Maybe we once will assist God with another creation.
??????????????????
We can only guess and speculate. There is nothing in the Bible about heaven.
Yeah, stuff like streets of gold and a walled city. I doubt it will look like that. I like dirt roads instead of golden roads. I also doubt heaven is living in a city and visiting the countryside once in a while. :Chinscratch:
Won't we have to learn all of history? In order to serve during 'day' of judgment/decision/Atonement, won't wehave to fully understand history? Isn't that what's going to be judged? Outwardly/collectively? And the personal is inner (burning) judgment..
1000 years of "reigning with Christ" and surely learning. A Lot. One thousand years. Mix in some rebuilding going on. Yes it is written.. and we find when we seek with our whole heart. What is it we are seeking is an all important question, and who knows the things of a person but the spirit of that person? As Paul said.. And who will know the heart of God (and thus some little bit of knowing of His plans/works. Trouble is we've talked ourselves into not trusting God's Word! So many wondrous things are veiled still to us all.. to all of us frail humans. There comes a time when we begin to be able to see that when it comes to "me" (self) is a long list of dumb things.. thinking and actions, when unassisted and not yet in union with God through Jesus Son of God :cloud9: ..And even after knowing Him, of course.. the less than brilliant part of my psyche is what's self.. All insight intelligence, is Him. But not all intelligence, since the mind and thinking is still kind of tricky..
Any (truth based and filled) insight or intelligence.. or love, patience, kindness.. is all Him. He is going to shine through all. Through every personality. Can we imagine what a close knit family that is? And the lion will eat straw like the ox.. My people will be able to sleep in the forest.. the small child can play at the entrance to a snake den.. (I forget what kind of snake it says..) ...the bear will graze with the cow.. Each one will dwell under his/her own vine and fruit tree..
Won't we have to all fully understand what happened? Isn't that the "smoke which shall rise up unending"? (Never forgotten, the all important lesson that is.) We have (surely?) a lot of catching up to do, with this reality! Before anything else don't we?
Jesus said to be great we serve.. we are very blessed, we want to make our calling and election sure.. Be found of Him at His coming.. serving.. rightly dividing.. breaking the bread rightly and passing it out to benefit others/the body.. It never hurts us to yield, yield, yield to Him. Deliberately and with full intent.. To "let" Him do His work in us. It's the only way afterall..
All suffer some. Some have not suffered so deeply that they cannot live another moment w/o God. But I believe we will all suffer (weep with God's Spirit) over all that went wrong. Over all the less than wonderful things which happened to anyone and all. This is a road that CANNOT be taken. There is only one road of life. One life. One source. The wrong road of life is an abyss (bottomless pit of potential). And it is death/"lack of life". And source of all suffering.
He is writing His law, summed up and whole, as this one thing, love. Writing it upon our (spiritual dna) which the genetic code is replicated in every cell of our being - What Mr Darwin & Co. thought of as a 'blob' more or less., but is more complex than our greatest cities.. I read recently the "information" of one cell would fill the Grand Canyon (was it one cell? I think it was.) But! If we had all the physical material of all the dna from all people (who have ever lived?) it would be smaller than an aspirin. And this was no wensite, etc, but a science text book.
Sorry little sidetracked.. Positions and, I think temporary classes, so to speak.. yet ironically, still "servants". But after the "all in all" comes to be, and life is all Tabernacles, a celebration of His Presence.. :dontknow: I kind of lean toward thinking things may revert back to 'tribes' with the heads of families.. but mostly as social structure or one of.. as God is anything but boring or clone-ish, spiritual cloning (replicating) of Himself through unable to be counted (in the language of Rev.7) individual, self conscious personalities.. all equal in stature and importance, etc to God. The former systems having served but now passed away..?
:Peace2: hope I haven't babbled on too long.. :doh: :mblush:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 20, 2018, 08:37:48 AM
Maybe nobody knows because it's far to complex too understand.
I'm sometimes wondering we are the first and only creation of God.
Angels were created before us and assist God managing earth/us.
Maybe we once will assist God with another creation.
??????????????????
We can only guess and speculate. There is nothing in the Bible about heaven.
Yeah, stuff like streets of gold and a walled city. I doubt it will look like that. I like dirt roads instead of golden roads. I also doubt heaven is living in a city and visiting the countryside once in a while. :Chinscratch:
With verses like "the increase of His government and peace there will be no end" assisting in another creation seems to be what I would like, instead of doing harp playing in clouds and streets of gold.
And if there are multiple universes, maybe all of those people would then help us create more? :Chinscratch:
It’s so exciting all the info about it in God’s Word.
If there should be literal streets of gold inthe capital, it doesn’t mean there won’t be gravel roads - my favorite too - in other places.
It’s my own belief, instead of multiple universes that this immense one will gradually host many more livable planets.. I mean, why not? But even if not.. I am sure life will be glorious..
This universe is unbelievably vast..
Ps, where it says there will be no more sea.. I believe that may be not plural, but singular.. as in perhaps the Mediterranean Sea, and not that there shall be no sea at all.. or at least I hope as I love the coast where land, earth and ocean all come together..
For me, "streets of gold" is an analogy of "a walk in wisdom" with:
streets being a representation of "the way of a journey"
and
gold being a representation of "wisdom"
A physical representation of something spiritual
my :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on December 22, 2018, 02:07:40 AM
A physical representation of something spiritual
I think this describes this reality quite nicely. The shadow of the light.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 22, 2018, 02:11:37 AM
Quote from: jugghead on December 22, 2018, 02:07:40 AM
A physical representation of something spiritual
I think this describes this reality quite nicely. The shadow of the light.
:iagree:
We may not be walking on streets of gold literally, but we are literally on a journey of wisdom
Of which I would like to add, what is the difference between a sidewalk and a road?
It is what the opening post is all about --- patience
Those who are willing to take the time to walk or those who are in a hurry, which I also see in the statement of "the broad road", most everyone is in a hurry to get to the destination rather then understanding that the destination is to enter into the journey
I've been wondering lately if there are believers who believe all scripture is metaphor only that Jesus did not literally come to earth.. that the beginning/Genesis is only simile and not literal I know many do believe.. also believe His return to be only in Spirit..
Were there early believers who thought Jesus' words about Jerusalem being destroyed.. surrounded by armies whom Jesus said would build a barricade around the city. Etc.. which all did occur literally, including the rampart or barricade.. Did they believe His words to be metaphor only? I have read that Titus army left the city after coming in and then afterwards building the barricade, that the believers took advantage of that time/pause, remembering Jesus' words, left the city and none suffered the destruction. Had they not known, or waited after the barricade was built would have been too late. Perhaps those who didn't know will rise up in the judgment and say to others, why didn't you tell us? I expect to hear that some day, because I am an aging flower child who if someone is not receptive, I don't tell them what's (imo) clearly written... that before they will melt their weapons into plows, they will forge their plows into weapons.. nothing new (yet) under the sun.. But praise Yah, there shall be an end to man's rule, wars, oppressions and inequity..
:cloud9:
...the patience of the saints..is to keep putting up with one another in love.specially those who do not know their right hand from theirleft
and would crucify you for blasphemy against God.Waiting on the Lord,as no man can do a thing of himself..nor is anyone'changed"butby
the power and will of God.whatever is 'impossible with men'is however Possible with God. so nexttime..remember..if you become impatient
with your child,fellow believers,unbelievers etc asto how are they so blind,etc..remember God has to open blnd eyes,deaf ears etc.
this creation..and the new creationcan notmoveany faster than God.
God is putting up with much patience man in his corrupt image..for the sake of man raised up in the incorrupt image.
Patience is a virtue..so very timely now..inthis creation...andthenew creation also. Because our numbers are as the sands and stars
everybody can't be first..and each is in his own order. why be otherwise? why be inahurry? we have life eternal without end!
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 20, 2018, 08:37:48 AM
We can only guess and speculate. There is nothing in the Bible about heaven.
Yeah, stuff like streets of gold and a walled city. I doubt it will look like that. I like dirt roads instead of golden roads. I also doubt heaven is living in a city and visiting the countryside once in a while. :Chinscratch:
:laugh: I was never a city boy and loved wild places. So I didn't think heaven would be all that fun, but then I was scared to death of hell which I thought for a long time I just wouldn't be able to avoid. Thankfully, that is history now. My view of heaven, besides what some NDE accounts give, is 1 Cor 2:9 "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
Quote from: bushy on December 22, 2018, 07:02:10 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 20, 2018, 08:37:48 AM
We can only guess and speculate. There is nothing in the Bible about heaven.
Yeah, stuff like streets of gold and a walled city. I doubt it will look like that. I like dirt roads instead of golden roads. I also doubt heaven is living in a city and visiting the countryside once in a while. :Chinscratch:
:laugh: I was never a city boy and loved wild places. So I didn't think heaven would be all that fun, but then I was scared to death of hell which I thought for a long time I just wouldn't be able to avoid. Thankfully, that is history now. My view of heaven, besides what some NDE accounts give, is 1 Cor 2:9 "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
Don't forget the very next verse!
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
the farmer[God] sows Hisseed..andwaits patiently forittogrow..God caused rain/reign and sunshine/sonlight to causejust that.
angels noticed tares..andquestioned where they comefrom[untruths/imitation spirits] God said'an enemy hath done this in thenight"
at harvest then all these tares are dealt with...when Here moves all things that cause sin,offense,stumbling etc.
presumptuousness..is the opposite of Patience...a rushing to judgement. knowledge maygreatly increase in the earth..with many
running to and fro,but without wisdom[or knowing of God coupled with Love/patience]...the precious fruit God waits on is harmed.
we need ALL THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT OF LOVE..if we are to be Love in motion[walk with God] :2c:
:2c: as part of our inheritance we shall all receive our own sun/earth..to keep as a garden/park home..we will all visit each other..andenjoy
coming to know each other more intimately..andsee the various attractions of each of our familymembers estates.Now,some planets
soilswill berubies..and various jewels[we already have such planets in this creation] see the foundation stones ofthe 12 inJerusalemabove.
Jerusalem aboveisour Father's personal estate...and we children will visitregularly at our appointed time,there also.
just as this planet even now hasset aside wilderness parks to enjoy/visit,I amsure therewill besuchthings in ournew estates.
Beauty,splendor andloveliness..whatever form they desire.
I wil ltell you something..we arerich!!!!!beyond allimagings!!!..wemay be clothed indirt,rags andpoor at present..but my goodness,who
wouldofthought?!!To Love.. family..eternallife,joy and happiness...He has added richesbeyondwhat anyofus would evenimagine!!Not
that they arethemost important things even. But,I tell you...any so called treasure/riches any man has layed up here is as nothing!!!!
down here soil gets depleted,water wears away rocks andsoils etc.Not there!!!
Heremen would kill foralittlegold,jewels...there..wewalk onthem without asecound thought...becauseHis wealthis so extreme.
Allofus arrewhat He treasures most inHisheart..and He, also is our most treasured thing we could ever have.We are sooo Blessed
that Heisours..andwe are His.
I couldn't agree more Sheila, excellent post
Quote from: jugghead on December 22, 2018, 09:38:31 PM
I couldn't agree more Sheila, excellent post
I second this!
Sheila your posts in this thread were very timely for me! (Talk about patience, haha)
I love when that happens. I have been suffering a bit and your words lifted me up.
Sheila, I know your computer doesn't cooperate with you. Your messages are so profound, and reading them carefully is sometimes a good thing because it makes me pause and be patient :)
This is one of Sheila's posts in this thread that I just love, I fixed the spacing to share it with a friend who is not on Tentmaker:
The patience of the saints is to keep putting up with one another in love. Especially those who do not know their right hand from their left. We need to be waiting on the Lord, as no man can do a thing of himself, nor is anyone changed, but by the power and will of God. Whatever is "impossible with men," is, however, possible with God. So next time..remember...if you become impatient
with your child, fellow believers, unbelievers, etc., as to how are they so blind, etc..remember God has to open blind eyes, deaf ears etc.
This creation, and the new creation, can not move any faster than God.
God is putting up, with much patience, man in his corrupt image, for the sake of man raised up in the incorrupt image.
Patience is a virtue, so very timely now, in this creation...and the new creation also. Because our numbers are as the sands and stars, and everybody can't be first...and each is in his own order. Why be otherwise? Why be in a hurry? We have life eternal without end!
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
:girlheart: