The Spirit that returns to God

[CHB]

Hi All,

I really didn't know where to post this but I guess a Mod will move it if necessary?

I know a lot has been posted about where we go when we die but this might be a little bit different topic.

My husband just passed away on Dec. 28, 2012. This got me to thinking about the spirit that returns to God.

A lot of people at my husbands funeral kept saying "he is in a better place". "We only see an empty shell, he has gone on to be with the Lord".  I got to thinking about the spirit that God breathed into Adam. It says that God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. This spirit caused Adam to become a living soul, so if it goes back to God then it doesn't die because it was from God. Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit". This spirit was returned to Jesus, he was resurrected and became alive again. What I am wondering is, what does this spirit do after it leaves the body, is it active? Does it lie dormant? Is it asleep as Jesus said of lazarus? Or does it function in some way? Jabcat gave me some verses that helped me a lot. Anyway, I wanted to get everyone's opinion on this. Paul said to be absent from the body means to be present with the Lord, but will we know it when that happens? Death is referred to as sleep a lot in the New Testament so does the spirit sleep, or just the body? Do the Baptists have it right when they say, "after we die our spirit goes on to be with the Lord and at the resurrection our spirits will be reunited with our bodies?"

Thanks all,

CHB

[redhotmagma]

I don't know, but I wanted to send you a  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: for the loss of your husband.

[ded2daworld]

Me too. I'm so sorry for your loss.
As a former Baptist, they kinda miss the mark on the spirit being reunited with the body.
First off, if the spirit is going to be put in any kind of body, it won't be our decaying earthly, flesh and blood body. It will be put into an immortal body, as Paul said, "This mortal shall put on immortality" Lazarus didn't go to heaven immediately, neither did Jesus. I believe when Jesus preached to the spirits that had died pre-flood, his body was still in the tomb before resurrection.
True, Stephen committed his Spirit to God - just as Jesus had. When Paul said, "to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" He quite possibly meant that it would "seem like" almost instantly, "for the dead know nothing." Which I can agree with by personal experience.
Keep in mind, nobody knows anything for sure concerning this as there are scriptures which indicate "soul sleep" and also instantly being with God, and at least one other interpretation. 

[lomarah]

So sorry for your loss C.

I don't know what happens either. All I know is that we are in His loving hands, always.  :HeartThrob:

[redhotmagma]

Charlotte, like I said I don't know, but I see it like this.  It doesn't matter. 

If "the dead know nothing" and are dead, aka soul sleep, then when they wake up at the resurrection they will know no difference.  When they blinked their last, the next will be seeing the risen Lord, as the light of His glory washes over them removes the final vestiges of the woven veil that covers all people. 

If soul sleep isn't true then the outcome is about the same. 

Whatever the truth is on the subject I believe that to the dead person there is no difference. 

[jabcat]

Me too. I'm so sorry for your loss.
First off, if the spirit is going to be put in any kind of body, it won't be our decaying earthly, flesh and blood body. It will be put into an immortal body, as Paul said, "This mortal shall put on immortality" Lazarus didn't go to heaven immediately, neither did Jesus. I believe when Jesus preached to the spirits that had died pre-flood, his body was still in the tomb before resurrection.

Except for your own personal experience, I would suggest the possibility that the cross "changed everything" about that - as in "He who believes in me will never die.  Do you believe this?".  But your personal experience sounds like it moved you a different direction.  Is it possible your perception (don't know how long your experience was) was actually different than what happened on some level, or what would have happened, given more "time"?  Also, I personally think it's possible - since our spirits return to God, as the body returns to the dust - that the spirit is not dead, but in a "holding place" with God..much we don't know.  But I don't believe that spirit God gives us and returns to Him, dies or even "sleeps".  (I personally don't believe Jesus was "sleeping" when His body lay dead.  I believe He was active - accomplishing things.)   :2c:   But fully, "what do I know of holy"?

"I guess I thought I had it all figured out
I tried to hear from Heaven
But I talked the whole time
I think I made You too small
I never feared You at all No
If You touched my face would I know You?
Looked into my eyes could I behold You?
(CHORUS)
What do I know of You
Who spoke me into motion?
Where have I even stood
But the shore along Your ocean?
Are You fire? Are You fury?
Are You sacred? Are You beautiful?
What do I know? What do I know of Holy?" - Addison Road

[Molly]

So sorry for your loss, CHB.  I also believe your husband is in a better place, and I believe he is with Jesus.




For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

--2 Cor 5

[CHB]

ded, I think the Baptist mean that the body will be changed into immortality and then the spirit put back into it? Am not positive about that though.

(2Cor. 5:1-4) How do you see these verses?  Does the word "eternal" in this verse mean age as in other verses?

In verse 4 it says "mortality might be swallowed up of life".   Wouldn't that mean life will swallow up mortality at death?

Thank you all for your response.

CHB

[Molly]

"we will not be spirits without bodies"

I think eternal [aionios] means for the age, CHB.  These heavenly bodies will swallow up our dying earthly bodies with LIFE.

Paul does not mention any delay, any sleep, any time passed between death and life.

we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.



Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

--John 14

[CHB]

I have believed for a long time that when you are dead you are dead until Christ comes back and resurrects you. I have been going back and forth on this for the past few months. Some think that the spirit that goes back to God is just our breath, I have begun to question that? There are a lot of scriptures that support soul sleep but I have noticed that these are in the OT. Jesus speaks about Lazarus being asleep but this was before Christ was crucified and as Jabcat pointed out things changed after Christ was resurrected.


(2Thess. 4:14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

OK, if some are asleep in Jesus, how will God BRING them with him?

(Verse 15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

(Verse 16) For the Lord himself shall decend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:

Are the dead in Christ those who are asleep?

(Verse 17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to MEET the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the dead in Christ are already with the Lord why will they be caught up together and why does it say the dead in Christ will rise first?

I appreciate any answers you can give me on this.

Just trying to figure it all out.

CHB

[ded2daworld]

CHB - concerning whether we go to be with Jesus at death, or when he returns, or after 1,000 years -
The truth is...nobody knows for certain what the truth is.
It doesn't help I know, but just take it all with a grain of salt. :Peace2:

[sheila]

CHB  I feel for your pain..and your seeking from God understanding in this matter :HeartThrob:. I will share with you

my understanding[as I believe God has shown me] and expierence..

  there is two Adams..the image of the corruptible[sin in flesh] and the last Adam quickening spirit.  The soul that is sinning

dies[returns unto the earth/outer man that perishes] the Adam that is born again from above does not sin..and does not

die..but if he does die he shall live..or be changed in a twinkling and not see death. and returns unto the heavens from which he come.

   So, when a man dies..the corrupt image returns unto the earth..the voice of Jesus Christ calls the dead out of their tombs

and they are born again from above.  When the Lord calls someone from the tomb,the sea or the earth..the earth,sea,grave

MUST give up their dead..as they received them[in a body recognizable so that living man know that the dead are raised.

  For there are two likeness of the man[fallen/raised] see when He was on cross and earthquake and the dead raised and were

recognized and went into Jerusalem and were seen by living[to wittness to them dead are raised. However the raised

body by the quickening spirit of the last Adam..though given back from death in it's recognizable form..is not as a terrestial

body..but the new creation..and may take on any appearance it pleases..whether recognized or not..as Jesus did...They

then return and enter the Jerusalem Above[as those at his crucifixion entered Jerusalem/as shadow type]

    Inner man renewed day by day[new spirit man] transforms from glory to glory.. they can appear and disappear...

  be beings of light or appear as an ordaniary gardner[many have entertained angels unaware]  the children of the

resurrection are like the angels..

   I am going to share an expierence I had 16 months ago[whether in the body or out I DO NOT KNOW] I was given a dream/vision

of this 40 yrs ago..of ascending to heaven in a white whirlwind..with a childhoord friend.  forgot all about..for decades

until 16 months ago when I had this spiritual expierence. I find no fault with those who do not accept it..because I expierenced it

not them..these things are difficult to wrap our minds around. But I am sharing it with you..in the hope you will be comforted in it.

  16 mons ago..in the middle of the night..while sound asleep..I woke to my voice yelling..'It's R..R's here" R is my childhood

friend that lived 1200 miles away dying with cancer[of which I went up in dream/vision 40 yrs ago] It awoke me..my

speaking this and withine 3 secounds I found myself coming in the gate of Heaven and saw a group of people coming in

across from me..from opposite gate.  I looked for him..but did not recognize him among the group...so I set at one of

the many dining tables to wait.  In a matter of 10-20 secounds he come forth in his recognizable form..and walked towards

me from the group..as he approached his faces began the shine and features change..and he quickly toned it down and come

near. We inquired afte each other's well being..and then he returned to the group and I to my bed in this world.

   Now at that time , I went up alive..he went up after the death of his flesh[found out he had died then..4 weeks later]

  I knew he was in the spirit realm and his flesh had died when was awaken to 'R's here"  some shall be changed

and some die a physical death..some ascend alive....there are different reaping circumstances.Some will come forth

and walk on this earth in recognizable form to testify that the dead are raised to those still alive[like at crucifixion and like Jesus did

then ascended    some will come with Him on the clouds of Heaven[with resurrection unwittnessed by people alive]

  HE WILL MAKE SURE PEOPLE WITTNESS THAT THE DEAD ARE ALIVE AND HAVE BEEN HIDDEN IN CHRIST.

[CHB]

there is two Adams..the image of the corruptible[sin in flesh] and the last Adam quickening spirit.  The soul that is sinning

dies[returns unto the earth/outer man that perishes] the Adam that is born again from above does not sin..and does not

die..but if he does die he shall live..or be changed in a twinkling and not see death. and returns unto the heavens from which he come.

Sheila, this stood out at me. Thank you.

If Jesus lives in us we have been born again and if we are born again we cannot sin, the part of us that cannot sin, which is the spirit cannot die. Praise the Lord.

(Col. 3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above.

It says that we "have risen with Christ", also that we "are sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father".  So, if we die how would it change our position? I don't believe it would. In a sense we have already been resurrected, wouldn't you say? If we have been resurrected we will never die as Christ told Mary, "if ye believe in me you will never die".

Whether or not those who don't believe in Christ will not die is another question?

CHB

[sheila]

 well..the old adam has been condemned and must die in every man..and so too..the free gift of the  quickeningspirit is given

..for as all have bore the image of the corruptible man..so too..all shall bear the image of the incorruptible one..

[eaglesway]

I have believed for a long time that when you are dead you are dead until Christ comes back and resurrects you. I have been going back and forth on this for the past few months. Some think that the spirit that goes back to God is just our breath, I have begun to question that? There are a lot of scriptures that support soul sleep but I have noticed that these are in the OT. Jesus speaks about Lazarus being asleep but this was before Christ was crucified and as Jabcat pointed out things changed after Christ was resurrected.


(2Thess. 4:14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

OK, if some are asleep in Jesus, how will God BRING them with him?

(Verse 15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

(Verse 16) For the Lord himself shall decend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:

Are the dead in Christ those who are asleep?

(Verse 17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to MEET the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the dead in Christ are already with the Lord why will they be caught up together and why does it say the dead in Christ will rise first?

I appreciate any answers you can give me on this.

Just trying to figure it all out.

CHB

"Behold I tell you a mystery, we shall not all sleep. But we shall all be changed."



Wherefore he saith," Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."

[Lazarus Short]

I made my first post in the UR vs ET debate tonight, come back here, and find this thread.  It is relevant, but I will edit it slightly.  It's even still ready to paste, just like that:

AN ONLY SLIGHTLY RAMBLING INTRODUCTION

Back when I read a lot of Creationist literature as a new Christian (converted in my mid twenties), I noted that they usually started at the beginning, and that usually meant a trip to Genesis.  A few foundational concepts must be established, and then built on.  Like the prophet said, "...line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little."  [Isaiah 28:9-10 KJV]  That is how I intend to work.

I have attended a few different churches in my time.  I grew up in a Southern Baptist family, and that church taught Eternal Torment in Hell for the wicked, and make no mistake about that!  Later, I was an atheist for several/many years, got dragged into the Kingdom, and joined one of the campus churches founded by Jim McCotter.  After that, I was a "card-carrying" Seventh-Day Adventist for a few years, and they taught Eternal Destruction of the wicked.  One day, after (as I like to say) I studied my way out of the SDA church after having studied my way into it, and I don't mean that as a criticism (WAY off our topic here), I was reading a magazine article.  After all these years (about thirty) I don't even remember what the article was about exactly, but the illustration at the head of the article caught my full attention.  It was a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell.  My eyes roved around the picture, and it was all there:  wicked/lost people in red flames being tortured by demons with pitchforks, horns, and tails.  I'm not sure about cloven feet.  I said to myself that the only difference between this and pictures of Hell I was familiar with in this culture was...artistic style.  This got me to wondering - just where did our ideas of Hell come from?

Somewhere in this period of time, my best friend hooked up with some visiting Japanese students, and as a parting gift, they gave him a T-shirt.  On the back was a depiction of the Japanese Devil.  He was so familiar:  red color, horns, tail, etc.  Again, the difference was, uh-huh, artistic style.  Thus began a quest which eventually became quite focused.

OK, BACK TO GENESIS

What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 (...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.)  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/body, now with breath/life force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way. 

To reiterate:  DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true:  LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this is how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirit which He gave in the beginning.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

Goodness, here I have only laid a foundation, and I have already had to turn things upside down!

[Molly]

there is two Adams..the image of the corruptible[sin in flesh] and the last Adam quickening spirit.  The soul that is sinning

dies[returns unto the earth/outer man that perishes] the Adam that is born again from above does not sin..and does not

die..but if he does die he shall live..or be changed in a twinkling and not see death. and returns unto the heavens from which he come.

Sheila, this stood out at me. Thank you.

If Jesus lives in us we have been born again and if we are born again we cannot sin, the part of us that cannot sin, which is the spirit cannot die. Praise the Lord.

(Col. 3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above.

It says that we "have risen with Christ", also that we "are sitting in Christ on the right hand of the Father".  So, if we die how would it change our position? I don't believe it would. In a sense we have already been resurrected, wouldn't you say? If we have been resurrected we will never die as Christ told Mary, "if ye believe in me you will never die".

Whether or not those who don't believe in Christ will not die is another question?

CHB

Yep.  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

He that believes in me has passed from death unto life

Death, where is Thy sting? Death is swallowed up by immortality!

[Molly]

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:1



2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Molly]

He that believes in me has passed from death unto life

Death, where is Thy sting? Death is swallowed up by immortality!

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


But thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

--1 Cor 15:57



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfIr9hGQFSA

[CHB]

Wherefore he saith," Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."

I wonder, is this speaking of the unsaved, or those who don't believe in Christ?

CHB

[micah7:9]

I made my first post in the UR vs ET debate tonight, come back here, and find this thread.  It is relevant, but I will edit it slightly.  It's even still ready to paste, just like that:

AN ONLY SLIGHTLY RAMBLING INTRODUCTION

Back when I read a lot of Creationist literature as a new Christian (converted in my mid twenties), I noted that they usually started at the beginning, and that usually meant a trip to Genesis.  A few foundational concepts must be established, and then built on.  Like the prophet said, "...line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little."  [Isaiah 28:9-10 KJV]  That is how I intend to work.

I have attended a few different churches in my time.  I grew up in a Southern Baptist family, and that church taught Eternal Torment in Hell for the wicked, and make no mistake about that!  Later, I was an atheist for several/many years, got dragged into the Kingdom, and joined one of the campus churches founded by Jim McCotter.  After that, I was a "card-carrying" Seventh-Day Adventist for a few years, and they taught Eternal Destruction of the wicked.  One day, after (as I like to say) I studied my way out of the SDA church after having studied my way into it, and I don't mean that as a criticism (WAY off our topic here), I was reading a magazine article.  After all these years (about thirty) I don't even remember what the article was about exactly, but the illustration at the head of the article caught my full attention.  It was a depiction of the Tibetan Buddhist Hell.  My eyes roved around the picture, and it was all there:  wicked/lost people in red flames being tortured by demons with pitchforks, horns, and tails.  I'm not sure about cloven feet.  I said to myself that the only difference between this and pictures of Hell I was familiar with in this culture was...artistic style.  This got me to wondering - just where did our ideas of Hell come from?

Somewhere in this period of time, my best friend hooked up with some visiting Japanese students, and as a parting gift, they gave him a T-shirt.  On the back was a depiction of the Japanese Devil.  He was so familiar:  red color, horns, tail, etc.  Again, the difference was, uh-huh, artistic style.  Thus began a quest which eventually became quite focused.

OK, BACK TO GENESIS

What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 (...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.)  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/body, now with breath/life force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way. 

To reiterate:  DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true:  LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this is how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirit which He gave in the beginning.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

Goodness, here I have only laid a foundation, and I have already had to turn things upside down!

You my friend must be readying my mail! :dsunny: and I will not press charges :HeartThrob: and you have been reading your Bible.. The Word..not religions teaching in between the lines :thumbsup:

[ded2daworld]

OK Laz, I'm watching you closely  :eek:
I will let you know if I disagree with anything at all that you say. :Chinscratch:
It would be easier to find something if you would quit using scripture  :winkgrin:
Thank you for your efforts. :dsunny: :Peace2:

[Molly]

Remember him before you near the grave, your everlasting home, when the mourners will weep at your funeral.
--Eccl 12


This is how Solomon ends his book.

So do you think this is your aionios home?  The grave?

But Paul tells us that when we die we will be at home with the Lord.

And, King David tells us that his home will be the house of the LORD forever, which house Jesus references when he says he is going to prepare a place for us,  and will come back for us so that where he is we will also be.

So who do you believe?  Solomon or Jesus?


and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  Matt 16:18


Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.


This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."  [Eph 4:8]

[eaglesway]

I am not nnecessarily disagreeing yet, but again, I see an entire construct built on on verse. There are hundreds of verses on the soul and some of them can lead to another conclusion. There is no addition that locically requires the dissolution of the soul when the body dies because THE SOUL IS A NEW CREATION IF IT IS IN CHRIST, and it may accompany the spirit when it return to God, or it may sleep until the resurrection. I am leery of these two verse equations that get taught as doctrine. I am ok when someone says "I think this is what this means." I am not ok when it is taught like a systematic theology that ignores the context of what the rest of scripture has to say on it.