Tentmaker Forum

A friend and I was discussing through email who is the serpent in the garden.
I got brave and sent her seek the light by J preston Eby
Here is what she said so far..

Hi Jackie, thanks for that link and I'm slowly reading through it (sadly takes me quite a while to read and absorb anything) but I'll respond from my current persepctive before I read further ... 'Serpent' in English bibles is not a totally accurate translation from Hebrew where the word also means 'whisperer' like an enticing subtle sound ... like a serpent gently hissing. I don't know if temptation creature in Eden was a literal snake or this enticing voice of temptation came from some other source eg Adam ... but the tempting voice used a physical vessel.
I think that Adam was created perfect in God's image and God has thinking capacity and choice of decisions so also gave these aspects to Adam. Adam chose to heed an alternative to God so chose to corrupt ie prioritise that which was not good and true.
Darkness is lack of light. God created light yet allowed darkness to continue to exist too.
God allows us to choose dark or light. Choosing darkness is satan influence I think ... we were made from dirt which God breathed His spirit into ... I think darkness appeals to dirt base nature side of us ... we are physical as well as spiritual beings.
I'm not making sense sorry ... no I don't think that God created man to be satan but God enables us to be tested so we will show if prioritise light or dark ... I think anyone can act as satan if promote us to disobey God
best I shut up for now instead of writing more confusion sorry Jackie. I'll go read that page more
love you Jackie, your  friend Glenda
NEEDLESS to say she lost me..LOL Help!

The Father created both the darkness and the light.
It's the lukewarm he spits out.

Is this email confusing or just me?
Seems like I see her idea God created freewill throughout this post maybe I am wrong.

You are making sense SQ.
What the Lord Jesus did was to marry the flesh and spirit into a new thing — the MASTERPIECE of Gods Creation.
Christ in Man.

Quote from: SQ on March 13, 2010, 05:07:14 AM
Is this email confusing or just me?
Seems like I see her idea God created freewill throughout this post maybe I am wrong.

Yeah, that's one of the main themes I saw in her note - along with, I found it generally quite confusing...didn't really grasp all of what she was trying to say.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it appeared she may have been filtering what she read through what she already believed - and stuck with it.   :dontknow:

Thank you both for your replies, I almost regret getting into a discussion with her on this she is reading and sending me mail inbetween.
I really wonder what she will say when finished.
Here is another one got two more waiting.
The more she writes, she really needs to read that in entirety.


Hi Jackie, I'm beginning to think that sin/evil/satan is the empty dark state lacking God's good creation ... sin is everything 'not good' ... everything that God created was 'good' and sin is the alternative ie empty rejection of good ... lacking goodness/God and His created light ... it's the separate state from God and light like a black hole in space  ... God didn't need to create sin, but instead created an alternative to darkness and grants us a choice whether to be in light or dark ... is like house is dark and then deliberately turn on electricity to have light ... darkness is lack of intervention of invention of electricity ... darkness wasn't invented but is lack of any created thing.
God allowed dark to continue to exist and made a ruler for it which is a poor reflection of the light he created to rule His enlightened creation. God made the sun to rule the day and made the moon to rule the night ... but the moon actually lacks any light of its own. The material world is still in the dark
MT 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Material worl is still under the rulership of darkness/satan/evil while God's Kingdom is in the light under the rulership of Jesus.
REV 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

maybe I'm still not making sense ... but truly evil people lack anything good so are destructive influence trying to repress any light or truth or life ...
JN 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
1JN 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Light and dark can't co-exist in same place so darkness tries to overcome light ie destroy it but light will overcome in the end :)
love you Jackie, your waffling  friend Glenda

I think you're liable to be headed toward a discussion (on her side) that's filled with quite a bit of standard, orthodox thinking - although it does seem she has thought "outside the box" some.

Here's one basic idea that contradicts at least some of what she's saying, including "darkness isn't created, and perhaps "darkness is the absence of light", etc...it may not be completely that "simple"...

Isaiah 51:7 I form light and create darkness,
  I make well-being and create calamity,
  I am the LORD, who does all these things.

She also said dark and light can't co-exist, but David said even if he made his bed in sheol, God was there with him... :2c:

Yes I think so..

Hi, its me again lol ... the writer of that page hasn't caught onto the fact that the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field that God had made
Now a snake is a beast of the field which God had made. If Genesis is talking about a literal snake, how could it be more subtle than itself? It can't.
It can't be discussing a beast of the field snake ... so that's why the English can't give us insights which the Hebrew can give, since the Hebrew shares other meanings.
Maybe it's possible that when God didn't destroy darkness, that He allowed access to it by His creation but warned against the deadly consequences.
I need to study bible more coz everything God created was good ... but darkness existed from beginning Creation account and earth existed in darkness at that time ... and mainly still since overwhelming rejection of Jesus.
love you Jackie, your friend Glenda

I wanted to say if this was personal emails I wouldn't post this, but felt it was time I tell her more of my belief through J Preston Eby, he is better with words than me.

Oddly enough, it even gives "sin" as a pride of Adam.
The Creation has done nothing, all along, but to climb Jacobs ladder.
Oh how He loves us!
We are not "unforgiven."
Even that term gives me pause.
The whole purpose of God's creation is for HIS/OUR GOOD PLEASURE. WE ARE ALL FAMILY.
We are OF Him — not separate and despised.
OH HOW HE LOVES US!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk&feature=related


AMEN and Amen

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 13, 2010, 05:45:14 AM
Oddly enough, it even gives "sin" as a pride of Adam.
The Creation has done nothing, all along, but to climb Jacobs ladder.
Oh how He loves us!
We are not "unforgiven."
Even that term gives me pause.
The whole purpose of God's creation is for HIS/OUR GOOD PLEASURE. WE ARE ALL FAMILY.
We are OF Him — not separate and despised.
OH HOW HE LOVES US!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyW55AXJAk&feature=related


AMEN and Amen

Yes AMEN she also seems to think the serpent Satan is stronger than God.
God created all things seen and unseen including Satan.

That song was great, loved it!

This will be last one I will post tonight, but this one is a bit easier.
I am excited to see if she sees more when finished reading J Preston Eby's article.

I wonder if God making darkness is like making someone blind? ie removing capacity for sight?
That could be a way of making darkness?
Yes I'm overly talkative today ... your topic has my mind racing and simply writing all my wonderings
love you Jackie, your friend Glenda

SQ,
WE are the Garden of God.
The serpent is the desire to know good and evil, part of the plan you see, for in the garden WAS the serpent, all along.
Adam the spirit willingly gave into Eve the soul to learn of the things that makes ONE a God.
The first step.
But the whole thing is impossible without the Lord Himself.
We must partake of His own nature.
We have the capability but not the ability of our own.
And the miracle... FAITH. Faith is the strange thing unseen He uses to bring us up the ladder; home gain, patterned after Jesus, Christ, tried in the fire whose Spirit is better than gold.
For when we SEE Him we shall be like HIM.

Yes we are God's Garden, and part of God's plan to know Good and evil.
I agree.

Those last four lines of my last post was her thoughts.
She said that was an awesome link.

It's like our beloved willieH has been saying all along... it is not us that heals deaf ears — it's Christ!

That song, SQ, is remarkable!
Straight from the THRONE.
Notice how, towards the end, the members of Christ in the band, are transfigured into light, as the Lord Jesus was upon the mount.
Well, be ready, for He is the pattern!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 13, 2010, 06:40:20 AM
That song, SQ, is remarkable!
Straight from the THRONE.
Notice how, towards the end, the members of Christ in the band, are transfigured into light, as the Lord Jesus was upon the mount.
Well, be ready, for He is the pattern!

Wow I just watched again it sure is awesome, I am going to watch/listen again and again.
I noticed how they turned to light at the end!!

...all of a sudden!

 Yes I am waiting, pray it is soon.

For you, SQ!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhMdWjL2kiU&feature=related

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 13, 2010, 07:20:28 AM


For you, SQ!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhMdWjL2kiU&feature=related

I really enjoy the music, I look and look can't seem to find so I come here and play the videos you post over and over.
Music helps and uplifts us.
I am looking for one here, can't remember the bands name but has Lily in it you posted it, said was one of Cardinal's favorites and yours. Do you remember it?

Quote from: SQ on March 13, 2010, 04:50:32 AM
'Serpent' in English bibles is not a totally accurate translation from Hebrew where the word also means 'whisperer' like an enticing subtle sound ... like a serpent gently hissing.

Or possibly wizard.

Quotebut the tempting voice used a physical vessel.

Likely but not certain because it just as well could have been a evil thought.

QuoteI think that Adam was created perfect in God's image and God has thinking capacity and choice of decisions so also gave these aspects to Adam.

More accurate would be part of. God is smarter than Adam. Plus one needs to take care that this "image" (shadow according Jewish scholars) thing isn't taken to far. Otherwise sins we do are also part of that image and therefore God sins.

QuoteGod allows us to choose dark or light. Choosing darkness is satan influence I think ... we were made from dirt which God breathed His spirit into ... I think darkness appeals to dirt

Gen 3:14 ... upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Quote from: SQ on March 13, 2010, 05:25:57 AMit's the separate state from God and light like a black hole in space

Black holes pull light in never let it out. So even black holes have light :winkgrin:

Quote... God didn't need to create sin, but instead created an alternative to darkness and grants us a choice whether to be in light or dark ... is like house is dark and then deliberately turn on electricity to have light ... darkness is lack of intervention of invention of electricity ... darkness wasn't invented but is lack of any created thing.

I'm not so sure about that....
^KJVGen 1:1-2  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
==> God created a world of darkness -> In Hewbrew darkness=evening=chaos(=sin)

^KJVGen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light
==> So light was created/added afterwards. In Hebrew light=day=order(=holy)

Also note that the Jewish day starts with darkness/chaos and ends with light/order.
That's not just 50-50 chance; it's Gods masterplan. Transform chaos into order.

QuoteGod made the sun to rule the day and made the moon to rule the night ... but the moon actually lacks any light of its own. The material world is still in the dark

The light of the moon is secondhand glory from the sun. (man can do no good of his own)

Sun=light=holy=2nd Adam/Jesus
Moon=dark=sin=1st Adam (or satan?)

God is was and will be the supreme ruler. Why would He create a moon that cause trouble in His empire?
A ruler is someone who submits the people in his empire. I see that as a display of power/force. A force that can't be overcome. Why would God create a force that goes against His will?
So yes there is a 'choice' between dark and light. But the main question is: What is the true meaning of that choice?
a] Father's plan transforming chaos into order?
b] Man chosing eternal bliss or eternal blisters?

QuoteMT 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Material worl is still under the rulership of darkness/satan/evil while God's Kingdom is in the light under the rulership of Jesus.

Mmm, I think Jesus' kingdom is mainly darkness at the start and pure light on the end.
Jesus rules with a rod of iron. That's force. Why force if all is perfect and obeying?
Simply put there are 3 kingdoms imo...
1. Darkness -> Satan god of this world
2. Jesus transforms all darkness into light
3. Light -> God of everything

QuoteREV 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

That verse tells us nothing about who, what and why. It just states an end result.

Quotemaybe I'm still not making sense ...

Nope :happygrin: So I think you should join TM

Quotebut truly evil people lack anything good so are destructive influence trying to repress any light or truth or life ...

You mean the truely evil people that are a image of God?....

QuoteJN 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

If light shines into darkness can darkness do anything to resist?

QuoteLight and dark can't co-exist in same place so darkness tries to overcome light ie destroy it but light will overcome in the end :)

So light is everywhere. Light=order=holy. So holiness is everywhere. There is no stronghold of darkness (hell) because the iron rod of Jesus crushed all rebellion. So where are the sinners in a world flooded with light?
So people may have turned to darkness, or been taken captive by darkness, but with 100% light there is no choice anymore. So all turn to the light.

Quote from: jabcat on March 13, 2010, 05:33:45 AM
I think you're liable to be headed toward a discussion (on her side) that's filled with quite a bit of standard, orthodox thinking - although it does seem she has thought "outside the box" some.

Not some. A lot. She use orthodox thinking as a starting point instead of anchor points.
A huge difference imo.....

QuoteShe also said dark and light can't co-exist, but David said even if he made his bed in sheol, God was there with him... :2c:

Yeah a bit conflicting. A omni present God is also in sheol. But even more weird are the fist verse of Genesis.

^KJVGen 1:2 .... And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
===> Is the Spirit of God darkness?

^KJVGen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
===> Apperantly God Spirit of light didn't radiate light because the stars were needed for that.

So back to sheol... it's really dark in there. But the light of God can be/is spiritual. Jesus was/is the light of the world but still Jesus didn't radiate light. Although many words have several meanings it doesn't mean by default all meanings make sense in a certain context...

Quote from: SQ on March 13, 2010, 05:40:45 AMI need to study bible more coz everything God created was good ... but darkness existed from beginning Creation account and earth existed in darkness at that time ... and mainly still since overwhelming rejection of Jesus.

That's an important quote!
God said is was good. So we can accept the fact that by the logic of God it 100% certain was/is good.
But the word "good" has a meanings that differ as much as black and white. Good can only be defined from context. From the person who speaks the words.
If no people die during surgery that is good. But if no enemies die in battle it's a bad thing.
The plan of the surgeon was to save all people. For him zero killed = good
The plan of the army general was to wipe out 10.000 enemy troops. For him 10.000 dead enemies is good.

So good simply means "according to plan"
So Father said: "Great all is according to plan."
I think all denominations can agree with the above.
But there is no agreement on what that plan of Father actually is. Some even say "was" because God made a holy creation according to His will. But unfortunately He had to come up with a backup plan when He seemingly overlooked satan/serpent in His original planning.

So the major key question is "what is the plan that was so good?"  :bgdance:

Well she told me she didn't plan on reading anymore, she doesn't agree so that is ok.
I have no idea why I brought this up to her,other than I felt I should, feelings can be deceiving. :sigh:
Lesson learned.
WW you made some amazing points.

Quote from: SQ on March 13, 2010, 06:53:26 PM
Well she told me she didn't plan on reading anymore, she doesn't agree so that is ok.
I have no idea why I brought this up to her,other than I felt I should, feelings can be deceiving. :sigh:
Lesson learned.

I think you can't know (yet) if you really learned a lesson. Maybe you planted a small mustard seed. So perhaps your penpal learned more of a lesson than she care to admit?

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 13, 2010, 07:26:48 PM

Quote from: SQ on March 13, 2010, 06:53:26 PM
Well she told me she didn't plan on reading anymore, she doesn't agree so that is ok.
I have no idea why I brought this up to her,other than I felt I should, feelings can be deceiving. :sigh:
Lesson learned.

I think you can't know (yet) if you really learned a lesson. Maybe you planted a small mustard seed. So perhaps your penpal learned more of a lesson than she care to admit?

:thumbsup:  Seed planted, and she may not even realize it yet.  "My Word will not return to me void"...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 13, 2010, 07:02:43 AM
...all of a sudden!

"Upon awakening, his mind reasons clearly with the heart of the Spirit; purged of all the dross or impure thoughts which were but a whisper, as he slept."

The fire that is used to purify gold, also burns the dross.

peacemaker